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Tuesday, April 15, 2008
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
How Liberals Lost a Liberal
by Dennis Prager
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


The Democratic Party's preoccupation with the question of when America will leave Iraq rather than with how America will win in Iraq reminds me of how and why this nearly lifelong liberal and Democrat became identified as a conservative and Republican activist.

I have identified as liberal all my life. How could I not? I was raised a Jew in New York City, where I did graduate work in the social sciences at Columbia University. It is almost redundant to call a New York Jewish intellectual a liberal. In fact, I never voted for a Republican candidate for president until Ronald Reagan in 1980. But I have not voted for a Democrat since 1980.

What happened? Did I suddenly change my values in 1980? Or did liberalism? Obviously, one (or both) of us changed.

As I know my values, the answer is as clear as it could be -- it is liberalism that has changed, not I. In a word, liberalism became leftism. Or, to put it another way -- since my frame of reference is moral values -- liberalism's moral compass broke. It did so during the Vietnam War, though I could not bring myself to vote Republican until 1980. The emotional and psychological hold that the Democratic Party and the word "liberal" have on those who consider themselves liberal is stronger than the ability of most of these individuals to acknowledge just how far from liberal values contemporary liberalism and the Democratic Party have strayed.

Here are four key examples that should prompt any consistent liberal to vote Republican and oppose "progressives" and others on the left.

The issue that began the emotionally difficult task of getting this liberal to identify with conservatives and become an active Republican was Communism. I had always identified the Democratic Party and liberalism with anti-Communism. Indeed, the labor movement and the Democratic Party actually led American opposition to Communism. It was the Democrat Harry Truman, not Republicans, who made the difficult and unpopular decision to fight another war just a few years after World War II -- the war against Chinese and Korean Communists. It was Democrats -- John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson -- who also led the war against Chinese and Vietnamese Communists.

Then Vietnam occurred, and Democrats and liberals (in academia, labor and the media) abandoned that war and abandoned millions of Asians to totalitarianism and death, defamed America's military, became anti-war instead of anti-evil, became anti-anti-Communist instead of anti-Communist, and embraced isolationism, a doctrine I and others previously had always associated with conservatives and the Republican Party. This change was perfectly exemplified in 1972, when the Democratic presidential nominee George McGovern ran on the platform "Come home, America."

This in turn led to the liberal embrace of the immoral doctrine of moral equivalence. As I was taught at Columbia, where I studied international relations, America was equally responsible for the Cold War, and there was little moral difference between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. They were essentially two superpowers, each looking out for its imperialist self-interest. I will never forget when the professor of my graduate seminar in advanced Communist Studies, Zbigniew Brzezinski, chided me for using the word "totalitarian" to describe the Soviet Union.

I recall, too, asking the late eminent liberal historian Arthur Schlesinger, in a public forum in Los Angeles in the late 1970s, if he would say that America was, all things considered, a better, i.e., more moral, society than Soviet society. He said he would not.

It was therefore not surprising, only depressingly reinforcing of my view of what had happened to liberals, when liberals and Democrats condemned President Ronald Reagan for describing the Soviet Union as an "evil empire."

Identifying and confronting evil remains the Achilles' heel of liberals, progressives and the rest of the left. It was not only Communism that post-Vietnam liberals refused to identify as evil and forcefully confront. Every major liberal newspaper in America condemned Israel's 1981 destruction of Saddam Hussein's nuclear reactor (in which one person -- a French agent there to aid the Israeli bombers, and who therefore knowingly risked his life -- was killed). As The New York Times editorialized: "Israel's sneak attack … was an act of inexcusable and short-sighted aggression."

Most Democrats in Congress even opposed the first Gulf War, sanctioned by the United Nations and international law, against Saddam Hussein's Iraq and its bloody annexation of Kuwait.

And today, the liberal and Democratic world's only concern with regard to Iraq, where America is engaged in the greatest current battle against organized evil, is how soon America can withdraw.

There were an even larger number of domestic issues that alienated this erstwhile liberal and Democrat. But nothing quite compares with liberal and progressive abandonment of the war against evil, the most important venture the human race must engage in every generation.

I can understand why a leftist would vote for the party not one of whose contenders for the presidency uttered the words "Islamic terror" in a single presidential debate. But I still cannot understand why a true liberal would.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Liberalism
VEry well put. I gave up after Carter abandoned the Shah of Iran and became another in a long line of modern Democrats who abandoned their friends. The secular Muslim Middle East still hates Carter, and loves the Bushes and Reagan. I was just their last year.

:iberals are all Gone
I miss the liberals of my youth. They were lovely, loving and generous souls. As Pat Cadell said one night during the 2000 vote recount, the party of his grandfather was taken over by gangsters. They just want power.

Fascism
Current liberals are the heirs to Fascism:

1. Intolerance to any opposition to the Party line.

2. Destruction of the free market.

3. Nationalization of all industry.

4. Government regulation on businesses.

5. Free health care.

Throw in a smattering of good old Nazi Socialism (organic farming, anti-smoking, pro minimum wage, pro abortion, pro euthanasia, gun control, speech codes, racial quotas, animal rights - Yup, the Nazis were all those), and Voila!

You have the Western Liberal.

I must be
about the same age as Prager. Last Dem I voted for was Carter. Never again. Raised a Dem, I also found myself thrown out, ideologically and morally, from the abrupt left hand turn that the party took with McGovern.
Now, after studying seriously about FDR, I see I was duped by my "starry-eyed" naivete of youth.
Excellent article.

Nice "Confession," Dennis...
The true sign of an adult is the ability to admit when they are wrong. Liberals/progressives/communists are still in the pre-pubescent stage of life...permanently.

Dennis is a bit older than me...
But I had a similar journey.


Jimmy Carter was
The last Democrat I ever supported. His first official act in office, amnesty for Viet Nam Draft Dodgers, was a slap in the face I'll never forgive and an almost instant convergence.

And now, he empowers those who wish the destruction of the West.


you never were a liberal
Stop lying to yourelf and everybody else, Dennis. You've found your true voice as a radical conservative. Nothing wrong with that, if it is what you believe. But the nonsense about good and evil, stop already.

Oh and take a look at atheling's post the next time you blather about how much more civil discussion is on Townhall than Kos. Liberals as Nazi's, riiiight. Who was it that thought up nationalized health care anyay? Why, those commies Truman and Kenney!

Conservatism is NEVER radical!!!
In the privacy of the own lives most Americans live VERY conservative lives. More go to church each week than go to movies for example. YOU elitist snobs call this radical. We call it the heart and soul of American life. Get out of the twin sewers (the coasts) and actually VISIT flyover country or small towns in your own state.

-Ray

Way to go Dennis
Of course any rational, intelligent person would come to those same blessed conclusions. I just don't understand the bitterness of the Left, how they cling to their unnatural ideas of central government planning, their irrational fear of the Creator and His laws, and their pitiable insistence that Al Franken is funny. They are people of whom time has passed by, clothed in their tired, discredited, shabby Marxism.

laborlawyer
Visit Dachau, I have. All those slogans that were stated by atheling are on prominent display as Nazi slogans.

My favorite is "Public use before private use." Kinda reminds you of Howard Dean and the bike trail.

Think or the politcal spectrum as a circle instead of a straight line. The US is just kind of left of center on the top of the circle. Go far enough left and you get to communism and the bottom of the circle. Go far enough right and you reach facism and the bottom of the circle.

With that in mind, you can see how leftism and rightism resemble each other so much.

As I once read, the communists want to kill all the business and property owners and the fascists want to kill all the business and property owners who won't cooperate.

Not much difference, throw in "It's for the children" and match it to "The youth of the country are the future."

See the resemblance, yet? Want me to stop hitting with the baseball bat? The similarities are obvious, just open your eyes and read.

The problem with "liberals" today
I find much in this article by Mr. Prager that resonates with me. However, I find myself in disagreement in one area, and that is instead of desrting the cause of liberalism because of the many problems with the modern liberal movement, I think one should stay and work towards a transformation of liberalism.

I have been a liberal all my life. I grew up in a family of liberals. Most of us are saddened and concerned by the state of affairs today, yet none of us have jumped ship and declared ourselves conservative. Rather, we let our voices be heard in the hopes that others hear us and join in. If enough voices are raised, we can transform and redeem contemporary liberalism from the extremists who have coopted our cause.

If you are a liberal like me, a true liberal, then join in and raise your voice and maybe we can accomplish. If we don't, the end result will be the flip side of the sixties, i.e., the advent of a truly right-wing extremist state of affairs that would be every bit as destructive as liberalism has been since Vietnam.

This story sounds familiar
Sounds like many people in this country followed a very similar path. Based on my conversations many people moved away from the Democrats in the 80's. My first vote for a Republican was in 1988. Today
I am an independent who supported and voted for Ross Perot. Sorry to say, for us there is no real choice in the 2008 presidential election.




Laborlooser
laba lawya, Spoken like a true liberal! I just find it sad that we conservatives have only McCain to vote for! We could have had an end run this year with this crop of freakin loosers!Makes you wonder in this great country, how we can't get anyone better than these fools.I guess we'll just have to vote out every rino and lib, and keep our powder dry till 2012. Hopefully they won't screw this country too bad before then. But with cap and trade and the border situation???? We could be in quite a hole by then!

Jude the Obscure
"If enough voices are raised, we can transform and redeem contemporary liberalism from the extremists who have coopted our cause."

How do you feel about the Euston Manifesto?

Good insights...
Unlike Mr. Prager, I'm a lifelong conservative...but I've twice had lapses and let meyself get suckered by liberals posing as moderates.

The first was Dukakis (stop laughing, everybody) and his fantasies about the "Massachusetts Miracle" that never existed...at least that one was harmless, George H.W. clobbered him.

The second was Bill Clinton's first term--I repented of that within a week of the inauguration and I'm praying for absolution vis- a-vis the end of Hillary this election cycle.

Both times that I drank the Lib kool-aid were following personal economic hard times, when I went through a whiny candy-*ss phase where I thought everybody was better off than I was for no good reason and nothing was my own stupid fault. Perfect Liberal demographic...

Oh well, at least I never got sucked in by Carter.

Much Earlier
Prager wrote: "-- since my frame of reference is moral values -- liberalism's moral compass broke. It did so during the Vietnam War,..." The New Deal "granted" to we little people by FDR and Eleanor is as communistic as it comes -- in the early 1930s -- then followed by the socialistic programs from Truman, Kennedy and Johnson. Carter tried but people just couldn't accept him. But the Republicans and "conservatives" have also changed big time -- hear any words about smaller government lately? Other than one or two things, Jorge Bush has been a keeper of the liberal flame. Long live the American debtors who are going to get bailed out by the politicians whether they ask for it not. Direct bail-outs by the Fed and Fed government for credit card, housing, and gambling by Wall Street are much more dangerous than entitlements that have been granted by Demos and Repubs.

I would agree with Pat
No real choice. The Demos are all but publicly Anti-American - almost every "point" on the platforms of Hitlery and Obama both would have been anathema to our Founders. The Republicans have obviously decided their candidate for the Public at large, I see no other way the vastly upopular and completely unconservative McCain would EVER have risen to the top of the pack as he did. Perot was the last time we had a real chance to keep the Power with the People, as opposed to these two giant parties we have now that control everything.

For Jude - As with most types of people, there are two types of Liberals - those willing to compromise, talk, and debate, and the psycho fanatics who follow the party line and shout down any opposition. Your kind appears the former, to me... those who once upon a time called themselves Progressives. Today's liberals are the latter type I describe, and fanatics are the most dangerous type of human there is, regardless of political or religious affiliation.

My Moment of Truth
In a checkout line an eldery woman said she heard on the news the Republicans were going to bankrupt Social Security. I tuned in the news and heard the same thing but it did not make sense to me as this was an election year. I was only in my early twenties at the time and decided to research the issue. The bills before Congress were easy to find and not hard to understand. The Democratic plan was to do nothing for the most part and their inaction would result in insolvency within a few years. The Republican plan was to increase Social Security taxes amongst a few other provisions that would keep the program solvent.
Essentially, the Main Stream Media had outright lied to the American public and the majority bought the lie, hook, line, and sinker.

conservatism means?
Conservatism means picking what has worked in the past and trying to keep it's ideals alive. It means recognizing warts, and trying to remove them from the system without gross amputation.

Classic liberalism is now ingrained in many people's conservatism. As the far left has continued to gain sway over the Democrats, the D's have left classic liberalism as a relic of the past. As classic liberalism has many things to recommend it, it's not surprising that the conservatives (if not the Republicans) have picked it up, dusted it off, and seen "yes, there's still some value here. I'll use it."

This is probably why Dennis now feels more at home with conservatism.

Off to work, as much as I'd love to chat further about this, I can't.

Welcome home Dennis!
Now go and explain your transition to your friends of old and help them to stop being used as useful idiots.

laborlawyer
I guess facts make you mad huh?

Nazi = National Socialist party. DUH!

So you don't think the current party platform sounds like state-control of everything? THAT is fascism.

Pointing out facts is civil. Whining about it is childish.

Jude the Obscure
A nice positive forward-looking post. You would probably find your goal easier if you worked outside the confines of the Democratic Party. It is looking more and more to me that conservatives will only be a voice for conservative values outside the Republican Party. Perhaps we might find ourselves backing into one another.

craigtx
You are right about 2 kinds of liberals, and Jude represents by far the larger number. But the D party is no longer getting its votes from folks who have any notion of what liberal or conservative means. About 1/3 of the country is yelloe dog Democrats. The closest they come to philosophy is a statement like I vote democrat because the democrats are the party of the little guy. They pay no attention to actual democratic policy let alone the results of same. So we have black folks voting for politicians who routinely trash their best tool to break their economic chain, namely education. And blue collar types voting for politicians toutiing minimumwage, which is the biggest barrier for non-skilled labor to get a start in the job market.

Savage99
Savage,

thank you for your comments. I do work outside the confines of the democratic party. I don't consider myself necessarily a democrat. I have voted republican in some elections. I am a registered democrat so that I have some influence over who gets nominated, but I vote based on issues and what's best for our nation, rather than toting the party line.

I voted for Nader in 2000, not because I'm all that fond of him, but I keep hoping that an independent or other smaller party will someday get enough votes to get on the ballot and be able to take part in debates.

Now I get it
Prager has fascinated me for some time because he seems like an intelligent man, but he often says the most outrageously untrue and stupid things, which makes me wonder where the disconnect comes from.

Now I think I understand him a little better.

Prager is assuming that today's left is the same as the left of the 60's and 70's. He doesn't understand that the vast majority of Democrats have realized that communism is a failed ideology. Today's Democrats, like Barack Obama, embrace entrepreneurism, and not just in the for-profit world, but in the non-profit world as well. David Brooks wrote an excellent column recently about how young MBAs are using best business practices to get dramatic results.

It seems that Prager is always about a decade or two out of step with America's reality. He voted for Jimmy Carter, and now he supports George W Bush, arguably the two worst presidents we've had. (I still admire Carter as a human being, but he was a lousy president.)

The fact is, a lot of conservatives are starting to realize that the Republican Party is leaving them, like Andrew Sullivan for instance. There is nothing conservative about starting a war of choice without having a clear exit strategy. It's not liberal either; it's simply reckless. And the prescription drug bill compounds one of the weakness of liberalism (bleeding heart tendencies) with an antipathy for free markets by making it illegal for the government to negotiate the best possible price.

The wrong direction polls in this country are at 81% after 7 years of Republican leadership, and Prager is trying to convince people that the Democrats will ruin the country?!

Good luck with that buddy.

Phylo out.

odd
So you have disagreed with liberalism since about 1968. That would seem to constitute your whole adult life. But you did not stop voting for Liberal candidates until 1980. And you are trying to make the case that this represented a change in them and not in you.

It is natural enough, since most New York jews share values with the democratic party that growing up among them you would consider yourself a democrat even though you do not seem to have particularly liberal values. Judging from your picture it took you a long time to stop voting the way your parents told you and to start voting for yourself. That is fine. But most American jews do not vote liberal because their parents told them to, they vote liberal because the democratic party is more in keeping with jewish values.

You seem to be in the party that fits with your values now. Good for you. But there is no reason for anyone to think that if we simply stayed in Vietnam longer it would have been anything but a bloodier mess. And it takes a certain level of simplemindedness to think that we can win in Iraq if we just put our minds to it.

As with Vietnam, we are facing a disastrous situation brought about by our willingness to get involved in fighting in a country we didn't understand. There is a serious debate to be had about how best to minimize the damage. Then there are the jesters who think that we are in a college football game in which we either win or lose and it is just a matter of being determined that decides which it is.

I voted for Carter in 1976
I was infuriated with the whole Nixon/Watergate thing. Gerry Ford was a good man. I am sorry to all of you for my mistake. Blamed a party for a man's failings. By 1980 I wasn't sure that Ronald Reagan was the answer but I knew Carter was not up to the job so I became a Reagan Democrat. In making a decision, never choose the option that cannot be right--Carter. At least give yourself a chance. It worked out pretty well I think. I am amazed that no liberal claims the liberal mantle. People fall all over themselves to be the next conservative--the next Reagan. Nobody calls himself a liberal or the next Carter. So liberals like Obama and Hillary--and Kerry and Gore for that matter--start their campaign trying to convince you they are something they are not- a moderate- and run from the liberal name. Why not defend liberalism? Classic liberalism is a valid and uplifting philosophy just as conservatism is. But liberals today are socialists, far left. Pat Buchanan's politics are closer to JFK's than Teddy's are. To win a democratic nomination you have to pander to those who provide the money--leftists--but you can't be identified with them. Just the opposite for the republicans--McCain wants to claim conservatism. Let's hope it sticks if he wins.

Phylo
Things weren't this bad until the dems took control of congress in 2006. Same here in Mass until Deval took over as governor. I think you're putting the blame on the wrong guys.

Phylo misses the point...
There are "liberals" and there are "leftists".

Today's Democrat Party is lead by leftists, not classical liberals.

All the wonderful speeches by BHO are not going to change his stripes from "leftist" to "classical liberal".

And all the campaigning from now to November isn't going to make him qualified to be the "Chief Executive" of the world's largest enterprise - the US Government.

The man is simply too young and inexperienced.

And I'm not a McCain champion either.

My Journey
Seeing a photo of Jane Fonda giggling like a school girl in a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft battery starting my journey away from liberalism and the Democrat Party. The feckless Carter Administration pushed me completely across the line.

Dennis TEACHES jewish
values. Who are you to say that the Dem party is closer to Jewish values?

Anyhow...I am not usually one to go off on other posters' comments, but Dennis Prager is the most thoughtful radio host I've ever heard, and his gift for writing the right words is clear in this article. What once was a party of 'Liberals' is now a party of Leftists/Socialists and even Communists. Even the RINOs like McCain are closer to the Democrat party of Truman and JFK than what pose now for the Democrats. I just wish there was a real conservative in this race. Let's all pray for Bobby Jindal or Sarah Palin to get that experience they need, and run in 2012. Our country DESPERATELY NEEDS a REAL Conservative again.

Mom in Wisconsin

Liberalism as Fascisim
Actually, you can call it Progressivism. True Enlightenment Liberalism -a belief in private property rights, individual liberty, constitutional democracy, and religious liberty- went to the wayside when Christian Progressivism evolved during the late 19th century.

The mixing of the religious impulse with a whole host of egalitarian populism created a new way of politics -it was called the "Third Way". Supposedly niether capitialist nor socialist, Progressivism was intended to create "Heaven on Earth". Williams Jennings Bryan was one of the best examples, but Teddy Roosevelt, Taft, and Wilson also subscribed to most of these ideas. Muscular Christianity was the best example. The Progressives wanted a polity that was sober, hard working, chaste (never more than 1-2 children), pious but not zealous, thrifty (save, do not accumulate too much property), High Church (while being anti-papist, the Progressives did prefer the Roman Liturgy over the Revival Tent), and White (Eugenics or social hygiene was also on thier agenda).

Instead of the Pulpit, the Progressives would use the goverment and social institutions to evangelize (ie unions and the Party). Taxes on income, War on Big Business, the protection of the Little Guy always filled thier agenda. Radical Egalitarinism was thier battle cry. Speaking of battles, the metaphor of War was always front and center. Both Roosevelts, and Wilson loved the idea of War Socialism, and Wilson was the practionier par excellence. Both Mussolini and Hitler studied from this School. Later, when the Progressives became more pacifistic, they would continue the metaphor in domestic policies (War on Poverty, War on Drugs, War on Smking, War on War).

The Libertarian-Conservative narrative fell out of favor about 100 years ago. Even the GOP is essientially Progressive. Progressivism, as Jonah Goldberg noted, is actually Facsism.

I was Once A Liberal
but I grew out of it about the 4th grade. I was with my uncle while he was at the welfare office in my hometown. It was about the most depressing place I can remember. Social workers loudly scolding single mothers for not finding work, bureaucrats plodding through mountains of worthless paper work while the lines grow and grow;sickly alcoholics waiting in line for thier welfare checks; puke green walls covered by the residue of smoke (one could still smoke in goverment offices in those days).But most of all I felt an opressive kind of desperation and hopelessness. "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" should have been placed above the doorway. This was the end of the line -the promised land of govermental benevolence.

Democrats Have Changed
John Kennedy spoke of "Communism festering 90 miles off our shores." Today, the Democrats treat Castro like a Rock Star.

Easy explanation
It is easy to explain Mr. Prager's (and many or our) transformation from progressive to conservative. The answer lies in the Bible, in the New Testament.

Look up 1 Corinthians 13:11. That verse says it all.

Dennis

Welcome home, good buddy.

And keep talking... and writing.

question for Prager
and I would really like to see this answered:

Why do conservatives only think and talk about liberals? Where does the obsession come from?

All the liberals I know, read, and talk to never talk about how much they hate conservatives, or how bad they are. They mostly talk about their liberal candidates, ideas, and world views. If you look at the good liberal blogs, it's the same.

Most of the headlines on these columns are about liberals and liberal candidats. It makes the conservatives look impoverished of their own ideas, and mostly concerned with getting some satisfaction just from talking about their liberal hatred.

I don't get it. What do YOU get from it?

It makes me think that
Conservatives are bankrupt of ideas, confidence, and pride, (not the kind of pride one tries to create by trashing others, I mean genuine pride).

Government and Big Government
Time for another lesson from Political Realism 101: There can be no such thing as a small government conservative when it comes to holding national office and governing. Both liberals and conservatives can entertain whatever ideological fantasies they wish when they are not in power. Their theorists can construct intellectually intriguing arguments and their self-righteous activists can sound the call to battle.

However, all of this fades once a liberal--or a conservative--actually has power. The reason is this: In order to remain in power, those who govern need to provide benefits to their supporters. These benefits can be tangible (social programs, tax cuts, regulation, deregulation, etc.)or they can be intangible (primarily moral posturing). However, unless these benefits continue to flow, supporters will not support. Virtually every conceivable type of benefit calls for some expansion of government. Whenever a liberal or a conservative calls for something to be done about some problem, he or she--like it or not--is calling for an expansion of government.

Consider: Under Ronald Reagan and the Bushes, government has grown significantly larger in cost. We have also seen the growth of super-agencies like Homeland Security, an immense bureaucratic boondoggle that is precisely the sort of thing conservatives always accuse liberals of doing. But, guess what? Conservatives can play the big government game too, because they have to if they are to retain support from their constituencies and clients.

I'm sick of hearing how well ...
meaning FDR was. He was a rabid elitist that STOLE the wealth of the average American who were trying to be patriotic and do the right thing. FDR made gold illegal for the average citizen to own. Our lovely and fair FDR administration bought gold from the American populace for $20/ounce. Once they obtained all they thought they could obtain, they allowed the price in the US to rise to world market values of $36/ounce, thereby robbing Americans of nearly half the wealth they owned in gold. But hey, he meant well, and by liberal standards, you can't ask for more than that.

Rightmindedmom
I'm not sure if your comment was directed at my earlier comment, but Jews are not a monolithic group. Prager can find a group of like minded thinkers while still being far from the mainstream of jewish thought. Orthodox judiasm is a small part of American judiasm, and even Conservative judiasm (which is not akin to political conservatism, they are moving towards allowing the ordination of openly homosexuak rabbis for example) is shrinking.

Most jews in this country are Reformed or atheist. They often stick with the religion out of a combination of ethnic pride and respect for the tradition of charity, education, and lack of dogmatic beliefs. And then tend to be supportive of democratic politics.

Prager, no doubt, wishes it was otherwise. And there are certainly jews who do not fit this bill, but jews do tend to think that society should provide a healthy safety net. They wish that science was left to the scientists. And they have traditionally not been big gun owners or in favor of mixing religion and government.

That may change. Issues involving Israel have made some jewish groups more militant. The comparative wealth of jews means that more benefit from policies targeted towards the wealthy. But in general when jews vote their traditional values it means voting democratic.

JP2000
Easy answer, so easy I begin to wonder if you really understand the term whatsoever.

Modern liberalism is at odds with liberty. Conservatism means limited government, that is we seek to limit the ONLY entity which can control you. Not corporations, HMOs, Christians or any of the other bugaboos bandied about, only GOVERNMENT.

Conservatives aren't seeking to use the police power of the state to achieve our goals, however leftists like you ARE. Its a certifiable mental illness to constantly whine about everyone ELSE's problems then reach into the taxpayers' back pocket to 'fix' the problems.

When you say 'I want National health care', we hear:'I want to turn over a very good healthcare system to feckless, morally-challenged, inefficient power mongers in government.'

Not only is conservative ideas good, they are the best in terms of reality.
Private retirement versus social security? Private wins.
Government run healthcare(like Bethesda naval hospital) versus private healthcare? Private wins.
Government run education(K-12) versus private education(American colleges). Private wins.

Need I go on?


Has Time Frozen...
I always show articles like this to my Jewish friends, whom I can't understand why they are still Democrats. The good news, is many of them especially the younger generation are becoming Republicans, becuase they finally found out the FDR is dead.

-FAT

Jude and Savage:
Savage: thx for your comments - I agree with you wholeheartedly, I work with many minorities who follow that Party Line despite the fact it and they are worlds apart. What the NAACP says and supports, they do too. Party of the Little Guy, and yet they support Abortion? I guess they only support the Little Guy who cannot speak or fight for himself, if that Little Guy has a vote...

Jude: I VERY much wish we had a viable third or even better fourth or more option. The current two parties may not fit the literal definition of Monopoly, Mono = one, but this Duopoly sure is functioning the same way a Monopoly does.

I pray for our future : things do not look so hot.

JP2000

JP writes, "I don't get it."

Sorry, but I submit that you do.

This has NEVER been just about a difference of opinion of how to get things done.

When leftist thought, ideology and ideas cause real suffering to real people... good grief, someone should care.

And don't ask me to list examples for you. Do your own DD (due dilligence).

Or better yet, why don't you just ask an inner city single black mother with several kids and no father what public welfare did to her family structure and life situation.

But nice try.

Where are they, JP2000?
You wrote:

"If you look at the good liberal blogs, it's the same."

I'm not being sarcastic - please provide links to the liberal blogs of which you are speaking.

If such blogs exist, I'd certainly like to read them.

ScottK, DavidM
Your rationalizations are empty...a lame attempt to justify what is basically a hate-filled, misguided obsession that like most obsessions, is really about something else.

If it's about who is hurting America, Scott, why don't YOU ask some of the family members of young people who have been killed in a senseless war that was started and bungled by an intransifent conservative government that you all voted into office? One that wasn't even interested in providing decent hospitals for the vets who returned home with their faces burned off and their legs missing?

We can throw fruit all day, which is all that ever happens on TH anyway.

David M, your answer is exactly what I was talking about. You all spend hours every day talking about how much you hate almost half of the America population, that is what conservatism is really about. You (all) don't have a single greivance, (which you enthusiastically collect, like stamps) that you don't blame liberals for. In your view, your lives would be just perfect if America could just line up all the liberals in front of a firing squad or send them to a concentration camp somewhere. (Don't deny it, I've seen that posted hundreds of times.)

It's sour, it's negative, yes, it's bitter, bitter, bitter, and it is corrosive.

JP2000
Tell people like Sean Hannity that liberals "never talk about how much they hate conservatives, or how bad they are." But OK, I'll grant your premise for now--and I'll assume that we're talking about true conservatives (not RINOs)and libs (not hate-America types)

To second what DavidM said very well, the reason that your liberal friends don't get wound up about conservatives is that conservatives aren't always going to them and saying "I have a vision for America, and I need you to pay for it" or, more broadly, "I want to control some aspect of your life."


As I said, a telling clue
Are all the columns and posts about Obama. Apparently this is the red meat of conservative philosophy, the only thing conservatives can talk about this week because they are so bereft of real ideas and can't reason with massive generalizations (as appear in both of your posts), bumper sticker philosophies and canards, and a call to readers to come out with your torches and pitchforks, which seems to be the symbol for conservative discourse.

Bulldog74
thanks for giving me insight into why I voted in my first vote for LBJ. I take it by your reference to Dukakis and the Mass Miracle you
are a resident of my native state. I believe said miracle wasn't dukakis's idea but was from the work of a previous governor who was that rare bird, a Republican in Ma.
I have been conservative all my life except for that infraction when having grown up with A bomb
scares (duck and cover exercises all during my formative years put a huge fear in me, and when the infamous daisy commercial aire, I and my husband were drawn in. Young and stupid)
My Dad and Mom were the only conservative republicans in the family, everyone else were FDR
democrats and I can remember some lively arguments when all got together and Dad always seemed to have the last word. He despised the
Curley machine that ran the state, later inherited by the Kennedy Klan.
I have only been a card carrying pubbie for about a year in the 80's, independent the rest of the time and the only other Dem I ever voted for was the conservative senator from my current state. And he retired 30 years ago.

If you all really believed
what you say about liberals, and sadly, you probably do, which is part of my larger point, then why don't you all talk about how you want to implement better ideas and why?

It's like a top general on a battlefield who can't imagine a strategy or why he is there, he can only talk about how he hates his enemies. In the end, he can whip up alot of hatred among his troops as well (anyone who understands mob mentality can do that pretty easily) but all he's left with is that lynching-party kind of rage and blood lust but not much happening in terms of positive change.

typecasting and labeling
We the people, have been sold a bill of 'goods'. Our two party system is a joke and has been since the civil war. We are so far from the 'American Dream'. To pledge allegience to any party is to sell your soul to something that does not exist. They want you to perceive that they're looking out for you, but, just look around, what do you see? The only friend of the people, a free press, has been bought and sold, there have no problem in instigating lies and pushing half-truths. I will give caesar what is caesar's, but, my only allegience is to the true authority, Jesus Christ!

deathstar
I think it's more that Obama has brought this on himself; he's made some dumb comments and had some questionable associations, and now people are calling him on it. Why is that wrong?

And I say this as someone who, a few months ago, didn't really know much about Obama, had nothing against him and had no axe to grind. I even thought he might be a breath of fresh air in the political process...boy, am I glad I found out otherwise.

Maybe this is the red meat of liberal philosophy: when something goes wrong, blame somebody else, shoot the messenger and cry "victim."

You're right, deathstar!
Conservatives need to be more specific. Just like Obama is specific when he states he wants "Change!" We all know he wants to change ... umm, he wants to change... uhh, what is it he wants to change again?

JP2000
You obviously have never visited Democtatic Underground or HuffingtonPost

Bulld0g 74
""I have a vision for America, and I need you to pay for it" or, more broadly, "I want to control some aspect of your life."

Actually, it happens all the time. Do you have any idea how much we are paying for this war, and all the social and economic support that will have to be shelled out for armless and legless vets? Do you have any idea how much the prescription act cost, which was nothing but a giveway to pharmaceutical anmd insurance companies? How much did it cost to bail out Bear-Stearns? Those are just starters.

When conservatives tell me that I can't make my own reproductive choices, die on my own terms if I have a terminal disease, get morning after pills from a religious pharmacist even if my daughter has been raped the night before, or that I can be arrested on suspicion only and held for years without a trial, a lawyer, or any contact with the outside world, or that my kids have to spend precious school time listening to the religious explanation of how the world started in 7 days, conservatives are controlling not just the trivial aspects of my life but the most private and personal and important.

But that all begs the question.

Maybe if you guys stopped focusing on liberals and working on your own ideas you wouldn't be so frustrated and bitter.

Lunatics in the bin
I wonder if patients in psychiatric hospitals sit around and congratulate themselves on how sane they are.


Deathstar et al
If conservatives feel they are on such an uphill road and can't get they attention they feel they deserve, wouldn't you think they would have figured it out by now, that if you want to be a competitor in the war of ideas you just need to have better ideas? Or at least, talk about them instead of the other team.

Call it ideological capitalism - you can't compete just be trashing the other person's product.

Tea Party
I'm not a MA native, but I've been here almost 20 years now...politics aside, it's a pretty cool state.

Frog
"Conservatives need to be more specific"

This is why you guys are having problems. Deathstar never said conservatives should be specific - you are all pretty specific in listing all the ways you hate liberal Americans and what you fantasize about doing to them.

DS's point, with which I agree, is that you just need to have ideas, period, instead of column and column and post after post that just whine about liberal Americans and how you're all just victims.

There's not much to be gained in wallowing in your own misery, and then, like this columnist, telling each other how wonderful you are. It's not going to get things done, and it's unattractive and makes you look stupid, which I doubt that you are.

JP2000
Some good points, that's why I tried to qualify my statement by excluding RINOS, who are as guilty of tax-and-spend and expanding gov't power as the Dems.

Actually, I have a lot of ideas, but they're all based on the U.S. Constitution, which got trampled into the dust a long time ago by both parties...

Bulldog
" think it's more that Obama has brought this on himself; he's made some dumb comments and had some questionable associations, and now people are calling him on it. Why is that wrong?"

It's not, but why are 90% of the columns and the posts just about this subject?

Maybe the question is, why don't at least some of you have something more productive and interesting to talk about?

before I go to the dentist
When conservatives can only focus on their adversaries and try to shore themselves up, like Prager, they only appear as though they have serious self-esteem issues and are essentially mesmerized by the left. It makes conservatives look like the geeky nerds in the school cafeteria who can't take their eyes off the jocks but console themselves by telling each other how bad the jocks are and how great, deep down, they are themselves.

Deathstar
its because no matter how much they try to convince us they are AMERICANS first last and always, they are always bleating about how terrible our country it, how the Europeans and the rest of our world think about us all the while holding their hands out for our treasure and our protection, with many of the third world despots pocketing the money. How much they love that pesthole, the UN, formed by FDR and his commie wife with commie guidance, inhabited by thugs who vote against the US more times than not while we pay most of the freight. And it's consistant sandbagging of our national security.
Its the constant demand for more and more of our
OUR hard earned money to fund "visions and ideas"
not new by any stretch of the imagination to buy the votes of the non producers and the ones who have no business in this country or voting in this country. When have we ever heard any liberal/leftist demand that these people be identified at the polling booth? Have they EVER
demanded picture I.D.s of said voters so they cannot be bussed from polling place to polling place. and if not illegal, idigent and homesless, mostly drug or alcolholics bribed with booze, and cigarettes to vote many times?
When has the rule of law been of importance to the end justifies the means leftist/liberal/progressive.

There Is A Third Party
Where "True Enlightenment Liberalism -a belief in private property rights, individual liberty, constitutional democracy, and religious liberty" can be found. It's the Libertarian Party. And Bob Barr recently expressed his intent to run for their nomination. Since Ron Paul has rekindled an interest in the LP (having been its nominee in '88) Barr is looking to bring Paul's followers over to the LP. As Prager points out, he only needs 34 percent to win. Best of all, Barr is a FairTax proponent. Check him out:

http://www.bobbarr2008.com/

and the Libertarian Party:

http://www.lp.org/

If you bother to check out their positions on the issues:

http://www.lp.org/issues/issues.shtml

you may discover you are more Libertarian than Republican.

Here's a link to a quick test to find out:

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html


JP2000--Joke of the day
JP2000 writes: Tuesday, April, 15, 2008 10:47 AM
question for Prager
and I would really like to see this answered:

Why do conservatives only think and talk about liberals? Where does the obsession come from?

All the liberals I know, read, and talk to never talk about how much they hate conservatives, or how bad they are. They mostly talk about their liberal candidates, ideas, and world views. If you look at the good liberal blogs, it's the same.

Most of the headlines on these columns are about liberals and liberal candidats. It makes the conservatives look impoverished of their own ideas, and mostly concerned with getting some satisfaction just from talking about their liberal hatred.

I don't get it. What do YOU get from it?
=================================================
Have you ever actually read HuffPo or Kos--there isn't a valid idea being presented. Unfortunately, some of the posters here get into their own egos, but at least it is without vulgarity. Those most popular leftists blogs are just vile namecalling. And leftists candidates and pols just scream "Bush lied" knowing that they were lying.
I had hope for Obama--if for no other reason to save us from the biggest mistake ever by electing Hill--but he has shown himself to be a phony and coward. When he is caught--Jeremiah, cling to, it is our failure to understand instead. He is an elitist. And I don't feel "united". I won't support anti Americanism and bigotry in any form. That is Obama's platform. I embrace my religion--I don't cling.I don't own guns but am glad I could if I wanted. I oppose criminal immigration because it is wrong. Don't you agree with that? I do oppose Obama and the elitists San Franciscans he was trying to show off for. Yes, Hillary, and especially John McCain do relate better to common people.

Another Former Dem Heard From
I, too, was raised a democrat and voted for Kennedy, Johnson, and Humphrey. My first Republican vote was for President Ford because I thought he did an excellent job turning the country away from the Nixon crisis. But it was during the Carter years that I came to believe that the dems didn't care about the country, only about the party. Nothing they have done since has altered that perception. Dem voters seem to ask "What's in it for me personally?" while the Republicans I know ask "What's in it for the Country? For us?"

My Eyes Opened
I was a flaming social liberal in 1968. Even shook Robert Kennedy's hand after a political rally in Valparaiso, Indiana, five weeks before his assassination. Was devouring the New York Times daily. Then the USSR crushed the Prague Spring in August. Almost total silence in the NYT--almost no coverage, certainly no outrage. I was flabbergasted, but it got me to begin waking up to the propaganda we were being fed by the mainstream media, and to think for myself.

Furthermore
When conservative ideas are brought forward, you can depend on the liberal/left/progressives to either sandbag or shoot it down with invective, lies and subterfuge.
They know they cannot get acceptance of their ideas through the Constitution, so they have to manipulate it, come up with the LIVING LIE
Constitution; go around the people by judicial fiat (not so gay marriage in my native state, abortion for two examples), regulate (Gorebull warming is the biggie these days, but we have been stuffed full of envirowhacko selfish policies since the 70's), raise taxes and then raise them again; don't let the unwashed handle their own retirements or healthcare; indoctrinate via public education, revising our history in the process, finding zehyrs of meaning in the constitutuon where there is none (
separation of church state; right to bear arms, property rights, speech) In other words, we
want, no demand do gooder nannie staters to stay OUT of our business and mind their own. We don't need no stinking paradigms.

Tea party
Again, your comment proves Deathstar's point. What you essentially did was write a prolonged rant against American liberals, apparently believing that it is all of them, and only them, that cheat in elections, complain about the country (my God, do you actually read some of the posts on TH? ) Rants about liberals ARE complaints about the country - we have lost our morals, our purpose, our religion, our culture, waa-waa...

It's intersting that you responded with just more myopic and simplistic generalizations about liberals and didn't mention one positive, new, or interesting thing about yourselves.

Get my drift?


Tea Party
Unfortunately for the conservative movement, your focus and your rant makes you the poster boy for the right.

It's not just you, it's the whole gang of you, with too few exceptions, who have made TH little more than an exercise of running around in smaller and smaller circles, and who really don't want to consider their prejudices and ask hard questions, just want to pontificate and rationalize their hatred.

The worst part is, it's predictable, and like all preictable things, it gets really, really, boring.

JP2000
Good luck at the dentist, hope it's just routine stuff.

Although I think the geeky nerd analogy would apply more to liberals, I see what you're getting at. To be frank and honest, we have been a little short on pushing our positives and a little long on hashing out the lib's negatives.

But give us a break, we're faced with John McCain as GOP standard bearer this time around, and Obama's been making himself such an easy target lately.

JP20000
Perhaps, in reading Tea Party's comments, you didn't pick up that he is for allowing people to choose their own retirement plans, their own healthcare, their own choice in opposing policies they don't agree with on moral grounds, their own traditional interpretation of the Constitution (especially the First and Second Amendments) and their right to speak their own minds without being "shushed" on the grounds that someone else has been offended.

That isn't merely complaining about someone else's philosophy and political positions.

rebuttal mr. prager
lets start with the vietnam war.

my parents were rock ribbed republicans (voted for goldwater) prior to the vietnam war.

as the war progressed and they found 1) that the government was lying to us and 2) that the whole domino theory that the justification for the war was based on was false, they never again voted for a republican.

they also joined with the millions of chuchgoers and churches in this country who eventually came to see the war as immoral, not only in its intent but in its implementation.

we supported vienamese dictatators and wondered why the people of vietnam were not supportive.

finally it was not liberals who stopped that war it was middle america and a republican president.


now fast foward to iraq and you say this:

where America is engaged in the greatest current battle against organized evil, is how soon America can withdraw.


i would put iraq 3rd behind china which is our greatest threat and then al-queida in afghanistan.

what organized evil are we fighting in iraq.

the sunnis
the shia
foreign fighters from saudi arabia

My problem with contemporary liberalism
The problem I have with what liberalism has become in the new millenium isn't so much the opposition of many liberals to some of the wars we've fought since WW2; although I may disagree with those who opposed our two wars in Iraq, I can understand why some people thought these were not a good idea for America, and I don't have a problem with those who opposed them, given that when you go to war, you're asking some of your countrymen to die. And Prager is exactly right, up until about 40 years, the Democratic Party was still a fairly anti-communist party; Lyndon Johnson as Senate Majority Leader was nothing like Harry Reid is today, JFK stood up to Russia in the Cuban Missile Crisis, and until not all THAT long ago the party still had a place for people like Senator "Scoop" Jackson.

No, my biggest problem with what liberalism has become today is that, as Prager observed, liberals now seem utterly unable to make distinctions between good and evil in ANY realm, not just the international relations realm. Liberals nowadays call evil good and good evil. Their moral equivalances evidence that they seem to believe, as the communists have for a long time, that what is moral is whatever helps their cause; in short, that the ends justify the means. Given what contemporary liberalism has become, it is totally understandable the aphorism that if you're not a Democrat by age 25, it's proof that you have no HEART - but if you're not a Republican by age 40, it's proof that you have no BRAINS.

JP2000
I see you have come and engaged many other posters without answering my question.

Please point us in the direction of the reasonable liberal blogs you mentioned earlier.

Thanks!

GoBlue
"Have you ever actually read HuffPo or Kos--there isn't a valid idea being presented. "

First answer: No, but it sounds like they have alot in common with TH.

I go to http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com which doesn't allow personal attacks from either side.

What your post implies is that obsessive, limited people with nothing interesting to say are attracted to particular websites, regardless of party affiliation. Echo chambers are popular because one's own words eventually come back to them.

JP20000
I think you have a short memory. You must not have noticed yet that the Republicans/conservatives have a candidate now, and have had for over a month. Meanwhile on the Democrat/liberal side there is still a race going on. The Democrats made the Republicans' choice for them in New Hampshire when they crossed over to vote for Mr. McCain. So now the Republicans are simply returning the favor. They just want to help select the Democrat candidate as the Democrats selected the Republican candidate.

BTW, I suggest if you really want to understand the conservative point of view, read Mr Reagan's speeches. ""In His Own Words"" would be a good place to begin.

Am I wrong on this thinking?
atheling writes:
Fascism
Current liberals are the heirs to Fascism:

1. Intolerance to any opposition to the Party line.

2. Destruction of the free market.

3. Nationalization of all industry.

4. Government regulation on businesses.

5. Free health care.

I must ask the, to me, obvious questions; Is it true that a liberal would not stand for “Free health care” as it would force (gov.) them to pay money to someone (not working) that only wants something for nothing? Is it not a socialistic liberal that may allow free health care? Well, if you remove statement #5 then would you not in fact be describing basic Communism and not Fascism? I am only asking a question, to try and understand, and not starting world war 3. As the article says a Liberal is one in the same as a Jew and I could not see a Jew following Fascism. I could also not see that Communism is in fact backed or is the belief of the Jews. Or am I wrong on this thinking?

JP20000
At the risk of sounding like an echo, what you are not seeing is proposed government solutions to today's issues from conservatives and libertarians because we believe government is at the bottom of most of our problems.

Take the current housing mess. Government gave us the Fair Housing Act, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac. This combination of government interference resulted in government sponsored non-profits leaning on lenders to provide tax-backed funds as loans that would be securitized to people who could not afford to pay them back. This in turn gave us hyper-inflation in real estate. Now, the real estate market and the stock market are in varying degrees of slump thanks to our federal do-gooder government.

And in areas like Pennsylvania and other rust-belt states, we have a combination of progressive regulations, taxes, and union activity that has sent manufacturers either to the sun belt or overseas. The only way to bring industry back to those areas is less, not more, government interference.

Liberals/progressives basically want to use the implied lethal force of the government to redistribute wealth and control the economy and our social support systems. Conservatives/libertarians think this is the worst idea out there. Better to let the free market reward the hard working, and let private/faith based charities and social support systems help those who can't help themselves. And let the freeloaders get hungry enough to get productive.

So, your looking for government solutions from this crowd is misguided.

JP2000 shows his colors
I haven't posted that I HATE anyone. I posted specific examples to back up my ideology.

All you posted was a LIE. Who hates who exactly?

That is the ideology you believe in, otherwise you could post more substance than your lies.

Liberalism metamorphosis
I was a young adult when Liberalism changed from what my parents had been and celebrated to a clearly leftist secular religion. The change occurred most rapidly from 1968 to 1972. It started with the defeat of Hubert Humphrey, a classis Liberal and ended with George McGoveren, a New Leftist. It's probably the most lasting effect of the Vietnam War-and it was totally unespected by most of us.

Over my lifetime, I've seen and heard some of my neighbors advocate political positions that are total anathma to freedom, liberty and democracy. And yet, they seem unable to see the obvious disasters that will ensue if they get their way.

We need to move away from Leftism (ne Liberalism) and move toward greater individual freedom and personal responsibility. If we don't we'll all end up with the freedom of well-fed monkeys in gold-plated cages.





primus54
slate.com and salon.com are left-centrist liberal websites that are comparable to townhall in its roster of columnists.

on the posts, like here, you will find extremists from both sides but the issues are discussed in rational and reasonable manner by the writers on those websites.



jp2000 and collectivism
I don't hate liberals I hate their collectivism.
-------------------------------------------------
Danes and Socialism
Danish schools and hospitals are reportedly not very good, and waiting lines for routine operations are irritatingly long.

The average lifespan for almost every other country in Europe is increasing faster than that of the Danes.

Denmark has Europe's highest income taxes, requiring both spouses to work -- which means they don't get much time with their children.

One Dane out of every eight is tax-financed rather than market-financed, and well over one-fifth of people of working age are on welfare.

Danish taxpayers recently became irate over a newspaper story which reported that the country's 11,000 Somali immigrants -- virtually all beneficiaries of the welfare state -- had managed to send back to Africa the equivalent of $8.4 million over the past nine months.


jp2000
Liberalism = Collectivism.
-------------------------------------------------
Sweden and Collectivism
Sweden is a horror story of utopian multiculturalism, socialist mismanagement and runaway immigration, with a 90% tax rate.
-------------------------------------------------
Almost 90% of all robberies reported to the police were committed by gangs of muslims, not individuals. “When we are in the city and robbing we are waging a war, waging a war against the Swedes.” This argument was repeated several times. “Power for me means that the Swedes shall look at me, lie down on the ground and kiss my feet.” The boys explain, laughingly, that “there is a thrilling sensation in your body when you’re robbing, you feel satisfied and happy, it feels as if you’ve succeeded, it simply feels good.” “It’s so easy to rob Swedes, so easy.”

jp2000 on owning property
"We need to stop worrying about the rights of the individual and start worrying about what is best for society." -- Hillary Clinton

"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." -- Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, June 28, 2004.
-------------------------------------------------

Please explain liberals on owning property?

religiouslib Whate is Hate Crime?
What is a Hate Crime?
Christian & Newsom were a young white couple and the savage killers were all black. All the evidence indicates that Christian & Newsom were targeted because of their race.
Channon Christian and her boyfriend Christopher Newsom were on a date when they were carjacked and kidnapped. Her boyfriend was murdered soon after the carjacking. Christian was kept alive longer and was repeatedly raped before being thrown in the garbage where she lived several hours before dying.

Racial epithets were repeated over and over while she was forced to perform oral sex on all of the defendants while her boyfriend was forced to watch.
-------------------------------------------------
What is your definition of a hate crime?

religiouslib
Thank you for the links.

JP2000 posted a link to the Talking Points Memo to "GoBlue", which I will check out.

I just want to make sure we were getting the straight story from "JP".

I give all liberals the benefit of the doubt when they first come here to TH - but if they fib or embellish right out of the gate, they're going to have a problem with most conservatives here.

Moral equivalence
Moral relativism caused the downfall of liberalism. The first sign of this downfall was when moral equivalence began to prevail among liberals, as seen when prominent liberals such as Schlesinger couldn't say that a free society is morally superior to a totalitarian society because the question requires one to declare some moral principles objectively superior to others. For a moral relativist, it is forbidden to objectify good and evil.

Once liberals could no longer objectify good and evil, they could no longer rationally oppose evil or embrace good because these can't be rationally identified, distinguished, and one preferred over another on a rational basis. Therefore, what now validates the liberal's positions is that they are authentically emoted and believed despite their systematic irrationality.

I used to be a registered Democrat, and I don't remember ever having voted for a Republican. I may even have been a liberal in college, but this ended when I got my first professional paycheck and saw first-hand the taxes withheld, then looked out the window and noticed that the world hadn't gotten even one bit better even though I was now paying a lot of taxes. Nowadays I don't vote in American elections, considering this a well-deserved vote of no confidence in both parties. But I do root for conservatives and curse the liberals and the Democrats, who do not even seem to be Americans to me, as I remember them to be.

to JP 20k
You state "All the liberals I know, read, and talk to never talk about how much they hate conservatives, or how bad they are" - well, were you to go to HuffPost or DailyKOS, you would... or if you read a lot on TH here. Most of the libs that come here or go to the abovementioned 2 liberal places, are very mean and do not engage in debate and actually try to reason out issue, the simply insult (usually profanely) and bleat the same old dogma time and again.

As far as why conservative authors here mostly bleat on about liberalism, and bash it - it is simply because liberalism and conservatism are the adopted children of the Democrats and Republicans, respectively. Since we as a country have allowed ourselves to get to a point where we have only 2 parties as a viable option, those parties each chose a position that they thought would gain them votes. If by some miracle the current 3rd biggest party, the Libertarians, ever became a viable option, someone will find an -ism to call them and start attacking them with it.

For right now, though, libs and conservs attack each other because the other is ALL they have to attack, in order to perpetuate their own existances. And all the while, things that SHOULD be getting done, things that truly would be the Will of the People, get ignored.

Let us get the facts straight... part 1
We demand therefore:

The abolition of incomes unearned by work.
The breaking of the slavery of interest

In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.

We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. *

We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

Let us get the facts straight... part 2

The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs). We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State.

The State must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor, by promoting physical strength through legislation providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth.

We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and the foundation of a people's army.

let us get the facts straight... Part 3
We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a German national press we demand:

(a) that all editors of, and contributors to newspapers appearing in the German language must be members of the nation;
(b) that no non-German newspapers may appear without the express permission of the State. They must not be printed in the German language;
(c) that non-Germans shall be prohibited by law from participating financially in or influencing German newspapers, and that the penalty for contravening such a law shall be the suppression of any such newspaper, and the immediate deportation of the non-Germans involved.
The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.

We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

Let us get the facts straight... Part 4
The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states.

The leaders of the Party promise to work ruthlessly -- if need be to sacrifice their very lives -- to translate this programme into action.

.... A. Hitler

jaydee hates freedom
"The abolition of incomes unearned by work. "

Welfare, subsidies, pork spending, etc.. OK

"The breaking of the slavery of interest"

The borrowing of money is the cornerstone of modern civilization. It is the bridge by which the non-wealthy become wealthy.

" personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation"

In other words, the weapons that protect speech such as the above should never be rewarded. Other than slavery, communism, fascism and terrorism war hasn't solved anything.

"We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts)."

Another way that individuals can become wealthy without the risks of starting a business. People can choose not to buy stock, you know.

"We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race. "

I guess the common interest means 'as defined by people such as yourself', eh Mr Marx?

I encourage the prosecution of all companies which I am invested in who do not seek maximum profits within the law. Only by seeking the approval of consumers can profit be made in a free market.

How does one make money in a free market without helping people? The answer: they can't.

I could refute all these concepts of true fascism but I think this is enough.

liberals and conservatives
here is a humorous bi-partisan look at liberals and conservatives





The Democrats are the party of government activism, the party that says government can make you richer, smarter, taller, and get the chickweed out of your lawn. Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then get elected and prove it.

The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.

The Democrats seem to be basically nicer people, but they have demonstrated time and again that they have the management skills of celery. They're the kind of people who'd stop to help you change a flat, but would somehow manage to set your car on fire. I would be reluctant to entrust them with a Cuisinart, let alone the economy. The Republicans, on the other hand, would know how to fix your tire, but they wouldn't bother to stop because they'd want to be on time for Ugly Pants Night at the country club.


Democrats (I think to myself) are liberals who believe the people are basically good, but that they need government help to organize their lives. They believe in freedom so fervently that they think it should be compulsory. They believe that the poor and ignorant are victims of an unfair system and that their circumstances can be improved if we give them help. Republicans (I think to myself) are conservatives who think it would be best if we faced the fact that people are no damned good. They think that if we admit that we have selfish, acquisitive natures and then set out to get all we can for ourselves by working hard for it, that things will be better for everyone. They are not insensitive to the poor, but tend to think the poor are impoverished because they won't work. They think there would be fewer of them to feel sorry for if the government did not encourage the proliferation of the least fit among us with welfare programs.



RCB
While we both seem to be in agreement about the fact that modern liberals have a pathological inability to distinguish good from evil, it's simply not enough to "root for conservatives", without casting a vote that puts flesh to that bone. I, and in fact many conservatives, have some of the same frustrations as you undoubtedly do with the Republican Party as it stands at present in 2008, but not to vote is self-destructive. Whether you vote or not, SOMEONE is going to be elected to power, and if that someone is a liberal and enacts policies that make your life much more inconvenient, telling that someone that since you didn't vote, you should be exempted from the policies he enacts will NOT exempt you from being subject to them like those who DO vote. In years when Democrats have been in power in the White House and/or Congress, has the government obligingly exempted you from the heavy withholding taxes you've paid through your employer and other stiff taxes because you didn't help vote in a Republican? Somehow I get the feeling that the answer is "no". I'm not saying that the Republican Party and conservatism are one and the same thing (unfortunately, in too many ways, they've become disjoint), but if you don't vote in a way that helps keep liberals out of power, in the end you wind up no better off for not voting for the liberals' opposition than if you HAD voted, somehow. You may feel some moral victory for your vote of no confidence in not voting, but when liberals are in power, I'll bet it's little consolation to you when you see a heavy share of the fruits of your labors zapped away by the government without making things any better at all. Remember the saying, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

primus54
got it


religiouslib
You have it exactly wrong.

Conservatives believe that people are best at spending their own money, making their own choices, and creating their own solutions. We believe that the market corrects itself(when its allowed to) and people who wish to become successful will *seek out and help* people who need it. We use a medium called money to allow people who help consumers to be rewarded for doing so.

Leftists believe people are too stupid to do any of the above and if it isn't done by big government it will never be done at all. They fail to see that pooling power in the hands of ANY few(especially politicians) is very dangerous.

Government is like fire, a little is very good but any more than that and you will get burned.

PS. How is government run schools, government run health care, government run retirement and high taxes 'forcing freedom' on people?

Primus 54
"Please point us in the direction of the reasonable liberal blogs you mentioned earlier."

I did, but it was in another post and you might have missed it: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com

A world of difference.


retired geek
could be

i am not a fan of the hate crime laws, (once again proving not all us liberals think alike).

it is difficult to know what is in someones mind and unless there is overwhelming evidence that someone explicitly started out to target a member of another race, these cases should be handled like any other.


Bulldog74
"Good luck at the dentist, hope it's just routine stuff."

Thanks, it was OK but I'm glad it's over.

I laughed at your statement about candidates; commiseration is good for the soul. The problem is, it seems like I have never voted in my life without a sense of trepidation.

If you are a liberal, you may be evil...
... think about it.

A short list of modern liberals:

Nancy Pelosi
Harry Reid
Hugo Chavez
Fidel Castro
Jeremiah Wright
Rosie O'Donnell
Alec Baldwin
Barbra Streisand
Don Imus
Howard Dean
Hillary Clinton
Barak Obama

If you are proud to be associated with any, or all, of these wacked-out-socialists, you are "dancing with the Devil", and you, yourself, might be evil.

Just kidding. You're not evil; you're stupid.

"Liberal" as a code word for socialist
The word "liberal" was hijacked by FDR from the original noble Jeffersonian concept to be made a deceptive label for American-style socialism starting with the New Deal. That's why I dislike using it to describe the leftists. The New Deal ushered in the American activist confiscate-&-redistribute state.

"Liberalism" in this sense continued to be seen as a high ideal thru Lyndon Johnson's term. Institutional de jure racial discrimination was real & taking it down was properly virtuous. The "war on poverty" was declared. Democrats however "liberal" stood up for America, for prosperity & freedom, & opposed those forces outside themselves that threatened it. OTOH Republicans like Eisenhower, Nixon, & Ford grew government, & distanced themselves from Goldwater & Reagan.

Then, the feckless, endless, constantly trashed Vietnam war created a lot of angst w/ Johnson & the Democratic Party generally. Dejure racial discrimination vanished. The segregationist racists almost all walked out of the Dems w/ George Wallace in '68. By the 1970's, the radicals who rioted in Chicago in '68 had taken over the party by '72.

Disenchantment w/ "liberalism" set in as its failures became manifest. Poverty was winning the "war on poverty;" the civil rights leadership had morphed into the Race Racket, & federal judges were running school districts & ordering busing in order to achieve "racial balance." The regulatory state was taking over our lives. Iranian radicals took our embassy personnel hostage & Carter was so inept & spineless he could do nothing about it. "Liberal" got to mean "like Jimmy Carter," which meant no one wanted to be called by the "L" word anymore, thus it was ditched.

Back from the dentist
There's no way I can respond to each post that was addressed to me but I did scroll down and in all fairness there is a difference among posters here just like there is anywhere else.

But, it begs my question, which is why aren't your columnists writing about this stuff, alot of which is very important, instead of their usual liberal, gay, feminist, atheist-bashing stuff. I have had truly interesting discussions on TH over gun control, for example, where each of us - a liberal and a conservative - said that we came away with new issues to consider. That is so rare here; what is accomplished by hurling generalizations at each other? Some posters here still defined themselves by what they are against, not what they are for.

I know alot of liberals, and they don't wake up every morning thinking about ways to destroy your America. They go to work, they go to church, they complain about the weather, yard work, the price of gas, just like everybody else. I know this is hard to imagine on TH, but they aren't picking up drunks to vote illegally, encouraging your children to have sex, or any of the other things many of you mentioned.

Standshisground said "While we both seem to be in agreement about the fact that modern liberals have a pathological inability to distinguish good from evil,"

I know alot of you think that liberals think conservatives are stupid, but frankly, when I read comments like that (and there are alot of them on TH) what am I supposed to conclude?

RCB and CraigTX
said, "But I do root for conservatives and curse the liberals and the Democrats, who do not even seem to be Americans to me "

Huh? I know there are several intelligent and provocative (in a good way) posts above but this kind of trash sets a tone. I started counting the number of times "evil" was used to describe liberals but it got to be too big of a job.

DavidM
Have a look at part 4 @ 2:28 and see who the source of the entire write-up is. Methinks you owe jaydee an apology for showing who else is a progressive collectivist.

A thought about human behavior and Craig
All of the current research being done on "morality", meaning how we make the decisions we do about what to say and how to act, shows that people will behave much differently towards an outsider group, or other, than they will towards friends and neighbors. In one study, a large group of gang members said, "I would never hurt an old lady, she could be my grandmother". When the researcher asked who they could hurt, the said "a chinese delivery guy". This is what the horrors of war are about.

Radio Jockeys, TH columnists, pedants, analysts all make money by turning the opposing group into "other". As Standshisground said, we aren't even Americans.

If somebody is evil, not American, out to ruin your life, you can do anything to them you want and still call it moral. If we were to have another civil war with ideologies they way they are now, I think it would be the bloodiest in human history, all the religious talk about universal values notwithstanding. Divided Americans would make the Rwandan Genocide, another example of leaders manipulating people into separating themselves, look like a girlie-party.




craigctx
I fear the elected official is the tip of the iceberg. I believe it is our bureaucracy that is self-sustaining, regardless of the party in power, that is the main enemy. While it is true that congressmen and senators vote in the law, and the presidents signs it, and the supreme court occasionally weighs in on its constitutionality, it is the congressional staff with the input of the bureaucracy who writes the laws. It is horse trading it its worst. We need to return the whole federal government back to its original concept of "essential personnel" and send all the bureaucrats out looking for real jobs. That is one of many reasons I'm a big fan of the FairTax. It will eliminate the IRS, which will be a good start. But we need to get rid of the income tax which has become the main tool of the bureaucracy for social engineering. The FairTax will be a good start in that direction.

My journey
For me, the end came when the Dems tried to steal the Florida election. As a Dem,I'd been an election worker many time, always using punch card ballots. There was just no way that the weight of an old lady's hand could fail to punch the stylus all the way through. There was no way that Democrat poll workers were turning away Black voters. The rest of it, the discard of military mail ballots, the statistical reasons for a recount only in counties that had Demo majorities, only came to light later, but they confirmed my strong suspicions. They tried to steal a Presidential election, and the media actively helped them. This was not a matter of opinion. The facts that I knew so well were like a fist punching me in the mouth. I really had thought that the Democrats were the good guys. It took me months to get over the shock, by just about the time we were attacked the following September.

C_Miner to DavidM
Even conservatives say that the introduction of Hitler into the debate is the last act of a failed point. I agree. Is Jaydee's post supposed to suggest that I admire Hitler and that my 85 year-old liberal neighbor is out to annihilate the Jewish population?

Please.

I found another good one, by the way:

" as Prager observed, liberals now seem utterly unable to make distinctions between good and evil in ANY realm, not just the international relations realm. Liberals nowadays call evil good and good evil. "

Is this actually from Prager, TH's resident intellectual? If the saner people among you don't consider this hate mongering, then what is? And why are columnists like Prager so invested in making you all think half of the American population is out to kill you?

Dennis, you're no Conservative.
Dennis,

It does not cease to amaze me to hear neocon sympathizers such as yourself claim that recogniztion of the farce in "Iraq" means one is a liberal.

Conservatives, in particular, know that the root cause of our liberaty is property rights. And that in order for property rights to become deeply rooted in institutions, there must be stability.

Regional stabliity, rather than some convoluted notion of "victory" in some area of the Middle East has always been the goal of Conservatives.

Instead, you and your neocon sympathizers think busting into some area of the world, breaking it up, and holding elections is going to accomplish what Conservatives have long noted it will not.

Iran holds elections Dennis. The people there are not free.

You neocon sympathizers remind remind me of the liberal do-gooders who carry an old lady across the street thinkning they have done a good deed -- never realizing that she had already crossed the street from the other side and was heading in the opposite direction.

Good intentions do not equal good results. The Republican Party, when it was run by Conservatives, used to understand this.

Michael
I give up. It seems there is some kind of deep-seated need here to demonize anybody who calls themselves a Democrat.

I don't mean to sound condescending, and I know this is considered heretical and blasphemous in conservative circles but: There is more than one side to every issue.

To all the posters who wrote interesting
posts about conservative objectives and views:

Good reading, but to go back to my original point: You will never see columns on TH that take on school vouchers, etc., unless they are mostly about Democrats hating all American children. That's my point. If it's not about liberals, con columnists won't write it, and if they did, posters wouldn't read it.

JP2000
If I thought that the worst liberals thought about conservatives was that they're stupid, it frankly would be a great improvement over how I think liberals REALLY think about conservatives. To the extent that liberals seem to have any capacity to decide ANYTHING is evil, the one thing they seem to have decided is evil are conservatives. The 9/11 conspiracy theorists aren't found among conservative ranks; it wasn't conservatives who thought Saddam Hussein was "lynched" when he was hanged even while some liberals openly wish for an accelerated demise for Dick Cheney; it was Democratic Party chairman Howard Dean, not GOP chairmen like Haley Barbour or Mr. Mehlman, who said about those on the other side of the political aisle that he knows of not one who makes an honest living; it was a Democratic congressman, Jim McDermott, who went to Baghdad to call George Bush a liar while saying Saddam's word could be trusted; it isn't conservatives who have been apologists and defenders of the murderous communist regimes over the years. I could go on and on, but you see my point. The level of sinister insinuations from right-wingers about Bill Clinton while he was president was tame compared to what even so-called mainstream Democrats have said about George Bush and conservatives in general in the last 8 years. Liberal morality, such as it is, has degenerated, as I said before, to what the communists have practiced, that what is moral is whatever advances the cause, that the end justifies the means.

JP20000
I think you are confusing Liberalism and Conservatism with political parties.

The dynamic is not between Democrat and Republican.

JP2000
See anyone on TownHall who's been demonizing Zell Miller for being a Democrat? Even Ann Coulter has admitted that among Democrats, she finds Joe Lieberman a decent man. In fact, conservatives treat these men better than those in their own party (yes, yes, I know, technically, Lieberman is no longer a Democrat, he's an independent). I haven't heard any conservatives trashing Sam Nunn or former Washington Senator Henry Jackson lately, although of course the latter is deceased, and no conservative I've ever heard has ever run down former Demcratic Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn (again, admittedly, he was from a bygone era).

Also, what do you EXPECT on a conservative website: homages to Barbra Streisand and Al Gore and Noam Chomsky? You may not like the comments you read here, but you have a lot more freedom to post a liberal opinion on this site than those with conservative opinions do on such sites as DailyKos and HuffingtonPost, which will quickly lock out someone who posts such an opinion. And I thought you liberals were the ones who favored free and unfettered expression! The tight censorship on the liberal sites I've referenced, which isn't true of TownHall except that TownHall doesn't allow profanity, makes a lie of liberals' claims that they are in favor of free speech. Liberals think that as a consequence of free speech, we must put up with the work of pornographers and those who exhibit other obscene art, yet in the K-12 and college education systems they rigidly censor conservative thought and expression. But this dichotomy only goes back to my original point expressed in my first post that liberals have a real fuzziness about good and evil.

JP2000, don't give up; switch Parties!
First of all, some of us have a hard time articulating the way we distinguish between ideas and people. Democrats aren't necessarily evil, but the Democratic Party has morphed into a corrupt, amoral, power-at-all-cost entity that bears no resemblance to the Party of FDR and JFK that I grew up with.

For me, it all started with James Earl Carter. He was an incompetent moderate (at the time) and the Democrats evidently decided not to allow moderates to ever again be at the top of the Party ticket.

Standshisground
I think I just had a little insight into why you hate liberals so much - is it because you think they hate you? Is that why you think that conservative blogs and radio programs should just be single-minded attacks on liberals"

Let's face it, for every example you provided I could provide one that I see through the prism of my own views. We could go on and on forever, slinging bags of insults and singular instances at each other. How does that work for you?

I never, ever, heard one liberal say that Hussein was a good guy who shouldn't have been tried and hanged. Would I guess that it's possible someone did? Of course...people say lots of wierd things, (like Prager, for example), and I am not about to confuse him, professional liberal-basher, with my decent, polite coservative friends who ultimately want what we all want.


standshisground
"liberals have a real fuzziness about good and evil."

I think what you perceive as "fuzziness" may be more of a tendency to grapple with the complications of what freedom is about (it's not just about freedom to only pursue what your neighbor approves of) and also, what "good" and "evil" are about.

Maybe you are fortunate to think that everything in the world is so clear-cut and only has one legitimate point of view, which is the one you hold. I have never viewed human behavior in that way, also, I never automatically condemn something as "evil" just because I don't agree with it.

Stands

"Even Ann Coulter has admitted that among Democrats, she finds Joe Lieberman a decent man."

C'mon, Stands, Lieberman isn't even a Democrat.
Is that all you've got?


I've got to go again
and attend a board meeting for the "Friends of the Library", a group of people who find ways to raise money for the library, provide interesting programs for library patrons, and support the library staff so that it can serve the community in every way possible.

I know, I know, you think I'm lying and I'm really going over their to corrupt the teens who are using the computers to write their papers, and infiltrate the stacks with copies of Mein Kampf and Karl Marx.

Maybe Prager can write another column about how liberals like myself are working to corrupt the hearts and minds of upstanding Americans.


A difference of opinion Mr. Prager.
mr prager states:

"And today, the liberal and Democratic world's only concern with regard to Iraq, where America is engaged in the greatest current battle against organized evil, is how soon America can withdraw."

"where america is engaged in the greatest current battle against organized evil?"

that is where the difference of opinion occurs mr. prager..most people left or right in opposition to the bush's iraq war would totally disagree with you, therein lies the difference.
the problem is that you have absolutely no respect of those who disagree with you. let the amerian people decide come november 08.

Left Angle, please clarify...
Left Angle writes: "let the amerian (sic) people decide come november 08."

Define "amerian" and further demonstrate your ignorance.

Liberals and Stance
When college kids are taught that there is nothing in the world either evil or good, black or white, there is a problem. A number of questions were asked college kids recently about different positions such as: Was the Holocast evil? A large number of them insisted that there were certain to be good reasons for it even though it shouldn't have been done. Probably the ones killed were the cause of it. That is what they are being taught by liberal professors. So it is no wonder that none can now make a stand about fighting evil since they don't believe it exists - just like they are against religion because good doesn't really exist either.

Perry White writes:
"I wonder if patients in psychiatric hospitals sit around and congratulate themselves on how sane they are."

Why don't you ask them. You're already on the inside:)


I'd rather be
Fortunately, I have never been so desperate for an insult that I would attack another poster for their typos...actually, if I did I would never get away from the computer.

Still, it's pretty pathetic - sort of like accusing people of being Nazis.


45 caliber
"A large number of them insisted that there were certain to be good reasons for it even though it shouldn't have been done. Probably the ones killed were the cause of it. "


I read this stuff on TH all the time. One poster said they thought that the children of illegal immigrants should be picked up by the ankles and have their heads smashed against the closest wall.

Others say they wish there were concentration camps for liberals, where they would all eventually die.

So this is what you call the moral high ground?

I'd rather be in Alaska

Define "amerian" and further demonstrate your ignorance."

I think that's fair, seeing as how you have demonstrated yours by not knowing the difference between a typo and a misspelling.

45 caliber

"just like they are against religion because good doesn't really exist either."

Who's "they"? My grandmother, who never missed a sunday in her local church? My good friend who is a retired pastor and volunteers 30 hours a week in places that conservatives wouldn't dream of going? My son, who spends half of his vacation every year working for Habitat for Humanity? My next door neighbor, who works as an artirator for troubled kids in court?

Who are these people who don't believe in good, 45, tell me.


Perry White writes:
"I wonder if patients in psychiatric hospitals sit around and congratulate themselves on how sane they are."

Why don't you ask them. You're already on the inside:)


I don't think Dennis is the only one
My father was a life-long Democrat. In the 1930s, he joined the union movement because he'd seen the abuses of business owners who would work desperate people for months promising a paycheck at the end and then just close their doors, pocket their profits and disappear to their mansions in another state. He saw people living out of the backs of their cars with their children, having lost their farms not because they didn't pay their mortgages, but because the bank called the loans because the bank needed to cover deposits.

Dad believed in a great deal of the New Deal programs because he had seen them work in a time of crisis when even semi-communistic programs looked better than total government inaction.

Dad died in 1974, so I'm speculating, but he wasn't happy with the "war on poverty", feeling that feeding people permanently just led to people who didn't want to work. He was embarrassed to find out that Kennedy slept with Marilyn Monroe while President. He wasn't particularly enamored of the Vietnam War because he felt the military wasn't trying to win the war, but he also objected to the violent "anti-war" protests. He was pro-civil rights, but he also deplored blacks burning down their own neighborhoods after King's death.

Dad was a sensible, old-style liberal who valued freedom and dignity. He had never voted Republican, but he always looked at the other candidate and I think he would be a moderate Republican today. I think he would truly object to the intrusion of government that the Democrats advocate today. He would object to the broken moral compass of abortion. And, like he was in WW2, he'd support war if war meant saving civilians from terrorism. Prager is right. Many old-style liberals became moderates because the Democrat Party shifted left and they refused to follow. My brother's generation did that. It wasn't required of men like my father to follow.

JP2000
I think you are confusing people with behavior.

I do not hate anyone, I do hate certain behavior.

I hate statism, collectivism, socialism and communism. America eas built by the smallest minority group there is - Indivduals. I believe in self determinism.

You may have shown your true stripes when you wrote: "...in places that conservatives wouldn't dream of going?..."

My wife and I have worked with helping the homebound, abused children, battered wives, victims of incest, rape victims and prisoners for over 30 years. I have helped in prisons where very few people of any party would go.

What you do not understand is that Liberal policies have caused many defenseless people to suffer. The "War on Pverty" is a good example of collateral damage to the black families of America. Liberals have built "crime centers" they call housing for the poor that are more dangerous than Baghdad.

Next weekend walk alone on the streets of Camden, NJ to see the results of liberalism at work.

Who says conservatives dont have ideas?
There are alot of good new and invigorating conservative ideas floating around these boards that alot of lefties are just to blind to see or grasp. A real good one i read about is replacing our tax system with the "fair tax" or a "federal sales tax". Both ideas would bring in tons of money and greatly promote economic growth.
Another great idea is to enforce our immigration laws. I would also propose removing china from our favored trading status and promote more investment with our neighbors, canada and mexico. which in turn would open more job oportunities for our neighbors and give them less incentive to cross our border and live off our system.
I got a long list of ideas i would love to share and debate, but unfortunately dont have the time to list them here right now... good posting everyone =)

Retired Geek
"Liberals have built "crime centers" they call housing for the poor that are more dangerous than Baghdad."

Why do you say "liberals" built them? How do you support the idea that all of the public housing areas around America were the work of liberals? I spent my early adulthood living about 20 minutes from Cabrini Green in Chicago - as I liberal, I fought their construction and saw them as nothing more than a way of rich republicans getting poor people gehtto-ized so they could develop surrounding area with fancy townhouses and businesses. Once they were up, they were ignored. Aside from the drug trafficking, crime, unemployment and a list of other social ills, small children fell down useless elevator shafts and were bitten by rats.

As I saw it, these were the same people that conservatives left to rot, saying that they had "made bad choices" in life and shouldn't be rewarded. The slum buildings in South Chicago were not owned by liberals, trust me, they were around 86% owned by wealthy businessmen sitting in loop high-rises who couldn't be bothered to address the problems in those buildings (they had no trouble collecting the rent, however, often from the city).

Daily may have been a Democrat, he was hardly liberal, and Cabrini Green and other slums were not built to provide a helping hand to the poor; they were built to help out businessmen.

Lets get out of Iraq...
I have to point out one thing about “Americans” wanting our people out of Iraq and that one thing is Vietnam! We have been there and done that and folks you cannot win and almost any Vietnam Vet can tell you that. So, after reading all the statements about Vietnam and Iraq above as to be a “WAR” to stop evil, and sent their by “LIBERALS”, I am not at all happy about that. I sent a lot of people home in body bags in my time there, over some liberal’s thoughts on good and evil, I hope not. Iraq is now a religious war, as it is with almost any country over there. We should pack up our toys and go home and let them figure out their own laws and not use ours. They happen to be good at killing each other and I say let them do it, because “AMERICA” will not stop them and no more “AMERICANS” need die for a Religion!

JP2000
I do NOT hate liberals; like Retired Geek, what I hate is what the POLICIES of liberals have done to this nation. Liberal policies have practically destroyed our K-12 educational system; they've produced a generation of black kids who are more fit for populating prisons rather than colleges (like Retired Geek said, walk down the street at midnight in Camden, NJ - or Gary, Ind., or Detroit, or the South Bronx - to see what liberal policies have wrought); they've turned our culture into a sewer, etc. Oh, and by the way, show me where in any of my prior posts I ever claimed liberals said Saddam Hussein was a good guy who shouldn't have been tried and hanged; what I said was that plenty of liberals treated his hanging, not as justice, but as a lynching (I heard plenty of prominent liberals, especially in the media, talk that way about the event at that time). I also invite you to show me where in any of my prior posts I said, as you claimed in your post of 3:23 pm, that liberals aren't even Americans. Which, by the by, goes to illustrate something ELSE I hate about what liberals have done; they've even turned what I had thought was common and concise language into a Babel of confusion ("it depends on what "is" is", I seem to recall some prominent liberal once saying). And as far as your point in your 3:36 post about conservatives not recognizing there is more than one side to every issue: go back to my initial post of 12:45 pm and read what I had to say about those who took a different position on both wars in Iraq than I did (maybe this just all the more illustrates my point that because of liberals today, we don't even apparently speak or understand a common language anymore).

Fbrosius
" So, after reading all the statements about Vietnam and Iraq above as to be a “WAR” to stop evil, and sent their by “LIBERALS”, I am not at all happy about that. "

I'm not sure what this means - are you saying that Iraq is now being blamed on liberals?

Shieldwolf
"Who says conservatives dont have ideas?
There are alot of good new and invigorating conservative ideas floating around these boards that alot of lefties are just to blind to see or grasp "

Nobody ever said conservatives don't have ideas; I said all that conservative columnists, poster and radioheads ever talk about with any enthusiasm is their hatred of liberals. Take a look at the headlines on TH today. the subject of about 90% of them is liberals, democrats, or democratic ideas. Liberals don't talk about conservatives so much.

Aurorawatcher' Dad
I really appreciated that well written discription of your Dad and his opinions, expressed and deduced.

My Dad too is a WWII veteran. He too was a lifelong Democrat until he finally had enough with the idiocy of the Democrats and a certain president he referred to simply as "the peanut farmer". He and Mom both switched to the Republican party and havn't voted for the Democrat-Socialist party ever since.

Thanks for the great post.

Standshisground
"While we both seem to be in agreement about the fact that modern liberals have a pathological inability to distinguish good from evil, "

You don't have to say "I hate you" to make hate speech. Or, do you just think it's fine to define liberals as evil? As for the statement that liberals were not even Americans,

"But I do root for conservatives and curse the liberals and the Democrats, who do not even seem to be Americans to me "

I pointed out that a poster called RCB said it, I never attributed it to you. But it is a good example of the kind of wisdom that is promulgated on TH, which, as was my original point, always about liberals.

As for liberal sites like talkingpointsmemo that don't permit kiddie food fights, to say this is a typical liberal sentiment about free speech is just nuts. TPM is privately owned, and the rule against name-calling and personal slanders keeps the debate from becoming juvenile and debased.

In fact, stands
conservatives are having an orgy with Obama's comments last week, but If you read even quickly up this thread all you pretty much see is bitterness oozing from everyword.

Conservatives perceive liberals are ruining their culture, their government, their media, their lives. And I see the prevailing tone as one of deep bitterness, which is a kind of TH currency.

JP2000
JP2000 wrote: "...Why do you say "liberals" built them? How do you support the idea that all of the public housing areas around America were the work of liberals?..."
-------------------------------------------------
Liberalism is the poison that many have partaken of in America. This is NOT a party, Democrats and Republicans both have drank from the glass.

The poison is "collectivism" rather than individual rights. The smallest minority in America is the individual and their right to self-determination. We are not a nation as a group, we are individuals that are a nation.

The poison started in my life as LBJ and his great society. This was well intentioned but no one thought of the collateral damage that might occur e.g. women had a contract with the government. 1) They were paid not to work. 2) They continued to be paid if they did not marry a man who was working.
In general terms:
This began the break-up of the family. Children began to rebel because their was no male to stop them and discipline them. The government placed them in housing that grouped them together. Children carried the huge burden of not being like other children (which is the goal of most children) so they decided to carry it even further and gang together. They began to rebel against anything the other kids did - like be educated. Undisciplined, they resisted discipline in school and it become a badge of honor to disrupt.

I could go on about this or any other agency that derives its roots from "The Great Society".
The failure of the government and us voters was not to demand a measurement of success or failure and fix the problems or abandon the whole thing and try again.
The only antidote for this poison is to return to our roots of individualism instead of collectivism. Liberals have learned to stay in power they must acquiesce to collectivism.

I went from Liberal to Libertarian
Like many young people in the post-Vietnam era, I had liberal tendencies that were brought into focus by the popular culture and media. After a couple of Army enlistments, I started on a new path. I discovered that modern liberalism was not the style of liberalism that was practiced by our nation's founders.
I realized that being free was not always the same as having liberty. The model of right and left wings of a political spectrum doesn't explain the process to me any longer. My view is more non-Euclidean, where the political extremes meet somewhere in space at a point called tyranny.

JP2000
You're having your own Hillary Clinton "I was under sniper fire in Bosnia" moment right now. You claimed that you never attributed the sentiment to ME that liberals and Democrats aren't even Americans. I'll go back to your 3:23 pm post and quote: "As Standshisground said, we aren't even Americans." In fact, I see absolutely no mention of the poster RCB in that 3:23 post. Like with the videotape that clearly showed Hillary Clinton's account of what happened on her trip to Bosnia in 1996 didn't square with the facts, your 3:23 pm post is up there for all the world to read your own words and show that what you said at 3:23 pm contradicts what you're now claiming you said in your 8:52 pm. Care to comment?

Robert on Definitions
I did define "HalBert" which is a combination of HalD and roBert. The term defines a group of people who are suffering from brain flatulence.

When your brain flatulates it causes pressure within the skull that can only be relieved by passing the flatulence through your mouth.

Medical researchers think they can perform a bypass from the brain to the proper orifice.

This would grant "HalBerts" great relief and protect the rest of us from the flatulence that you pass on as comments.

Doctors are concerned about a side effect called "back fire" where what is in the colon might actually spew out of your mouth instead of flatulence.

You should consult with a brain flatulence specialist asap. After talking to you, he or she will certainly place you at the top of the waiting list.

Another compassionate conservative trying to help!

WOW! "Chuckles" (aka Robert, aka Roberto

aka wobbie) is back again to delight and entertain us..

Where have you been? It's been really quiet around here, and not very funny without you and your great stories...

Hold on, I'll make sure the other TH regulars know you're here.. They HATE to miss it when you're entertaining us...






wobbie writes: "Dont faltter yourself.."

See, it doesn't get any more humorous than that...

Thank you wobbie... A Navy Capt. spelling "faltter" instead of "flatter."

All for your entertainment...

i find it interesting
that i continually see the concept that conservatives think government should not help and that the market should have its way.



that is republican dogma that has been proven wrong very recently.

lets talk about the mortgage crisis.

first we had an industry that did not have enough oversight.
they took on more debt than they had cash on hand.
(can you say bear-stearns)
then some lenders decieved many thousands of americans into talking loans they actually could not afford.

now who is having to bail out these people and bear-stearns too.

you and me

of course, as micahael savage says "the bearstearns bailout is the biggest crime of the century.
most of the major stock holders had been cashing in theire stock for past year and a half.
do you think they maybe knew something?

so when some conservatives talk about privatizing social security or having americans have a social security or medicare account that they manage themselves the same thing is likely to happen.

and who will get the bill for bailing out the senior citizens who made bad decisions with their money or ripped off.

now this is just one example where the market has not helped americans but only made a bad situation worse.


don't get me started on tax breaks and market explanations for oil companies and their raking in the biggest profits in the history of the american economy.

they are screwing americans to make profits.

no other way to look at it.

rather overly simplistic
Dear Dennis Prager,
Schlesinger and Brzezinski probably chided you for asking simplistic and naive questions and expecting naive and simplistic answers.

Consider the presumption of the "Evil Empire". Certainly the Sov. Un. committed evil acts. Yet on the other hand, the S.U. began to undergo a process of internal change that could have led to it being less evil, and did ultimately lead to its dissolution. So is something "evil" capable of positive reform?

Then there is the case of Vietnam. Could it be that those liberals may have made an accurate assessment of the situation? That maybe despite good intentions (or not?), the war was leading the U.S. to commit evil?

I understand that from your binary world view and the premises that you work from, what fights evil cannot be evil. And also that the U.S. by a priori assumption cannot commit evil. At least that is the implicit assumptions you suggest. But have you considered an alternative viewpoint?

While I have no problem accepting that things can be appropriately called evil, it is also evident in your writing that the label can mask a great deal of ambiguity.

The so-called problem of "moral equivalence" is a red-herring as well. Because it also over-simplifies a more complex reality. Your simplistic and dogmatic approach leads you being the moral idiot.

Retired Geek: WHY didn't you let us know

that "Chuckles" (aka Robert, aka Roberto aka wobbie) was back on Th???

That wasn't nice... The other TH posters are going to be really upset when they find out that "Chuckles" (aka Robert, aka Roberto aka wobbie) was here, and they didn't have a chance to stop by and read wobbie's excellent humor...



JP20000
The bitterness erupts from being taxed into slavery. Trying to live on a tight budget then having to take out loans to pay taxes. Wondering if our children will be able to keep 10% of their income once the Boomers begin to retire and demand Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. While our government daily wastes hard earned dollars redistributing income to people sitting at home in front of big-screen televisions. Socialism.

I have NO IDEA why"Chuckles" (aka Robert

aka Roberto aka wobbie) would call me an OLD WOMEN...

Oh wait, it's part of his entertainment... That's okay then.

All part of the humor and entertainment... Of course, wobbie knows that NO Navy officer would every be so disrespectful... ever...not in real life, anyway.

Wobbie is good... kind of like Walter Mitty on steroids..




We're depending on your continued humor to make us laugh.. ;-0




Joycey
It seems there are approximately 2 ways to approach problems like the one you describe. You can either go on TH every day like Anne and blame liberals for all your problems or we can all act like grownups and listen to each other. I

I think your experience of being taxed into slavery is a very compelling statement, and the idea of having to take out loans to pay taxes is definitely hard to even think about. I don't think anybody should have to go into debt to pay taxes.

But we can either decide to talk about it together and figure out how to change it, or we can go on periodically like Anne and throw ---t balls at each other. Which is more challenging, which requires more work?

The issue of taxation is a big one, and I know that many posters on TH think that it would all work out and people would be rich if liberals would just die. I haven't yet read a plan that would address this, short of condemning the needy and accusing them of theft, assuming that our roads and bridges would repair themselves, that our armies would eat air and arm themselves with slingshots. There must be a way to have an adult conversation about this without blaming liberals.

Anne
Sorry! HalBert dropped by while I was walking my dog. First thing I knew, he asked me if I was the one who made a definition about him.

I forget to tell him about another serious side effect if his bypass "backfired" s**t for brains.


DENNIS -- LMAO
"I can understand why a leftist would vote for the party not one of whose contenders for the presidency uttered the words "Islamic terror" in a single presidential debate. But I still cannot understand why a true liberal would. "

Sure you can LMAO geesh ,,,,,

Now, I ask you, "... ARbusto's watch"

If you all don't think that's hysterically funny you just have no sense of humor what so ever!!!

Just like no real Navy officer would ever be so disrespectful as to call someone an "Old Women" no Navy officer would ever, in real life, refer to Pres. Bush as "Arbusto."

You've got to love it... LOL

So glad you're here to keep us laughing....


Joycey
What would you propose to do about people who are invalid and alone; people who are bankrupted by having children who require 24 hour care, people who cannot work, etc., etc.

Do you think that if they sell their TV sets everything will be OK and and there won't be any need to pay taxes any longer?

What is your plan?