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Tuesday, February 19, 2008
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Five Questions about Shootings at Universities
by Dennis Prager
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Question 1: Why are murderers always counted in the victims tally? The day after the mass murder of students at Northern Illinois University (NIU), the headline in the closest major newspaper, the Chicago Tribune, was: "6 Dead in NIU Shooting."

"6 dead" included the murderer. Why wasn't the headline "5 killed at NIU"? It is nothing less than moronic that the media routinely lump murderers and their victims in the same tally.

This is something entirely new. Until the morally confused took over the universities and the news media, murderers were never counted along with their victims. To give a military analogy, can one imagine a headline like this in an American newspaper after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor: "2,464 Dead in Pearl Harbor Attack"? After all, 55 Japanese airmen and nine Japanese crewmen also died in the attack.

One can only assume that this mode of reporting murders is part of the larger movement toward non-judgmentalism and egalitarianism. To many Americans in academia, the media, and elsewhere, all the dead constitute a tragedy. Suggesting that some dead are more important than other dead is forbidden.

At the San Francisco Zoo, after a young man was mauled to death by a tiger that had escaped its confines, the administrators of the zoo even lumped a killed animal with its human victim: the Zoo set up a memorial to both the man and the tiger. And, unsurprisingly, given the egalitarianism that now also lumps human beings with animals, the tiger received more condolence messages than the human it killed.

Question 2: Which of these three options is more likely to prevent further murderous rampages: a) making universities closed campuses and increasing the police presence on campus (as the president of NIU has promised to do); b) making guns much harder to obtain; or c) enabling specially trained students and faculty to carry concealed weapons on campus?

Because political correctness has replaced wisdom at nearly all universities, colleges are considering options a and b. But the only thing the first option will accomplish is to reduce the quality of university life and render the campus a larger version of the contemporary airport. And the second option will have no effect whatsoever since whoever wishes to commit murder will be able to obtain guns illegally.

But if would-be murderers know that anywhere they go to kill students, there is a real likelihood that one or two students will shoot them first, and if in fact some would-be murderer is killed before he can murder any, or at least many, students, we will see far fewer such attempts made. Even though many of these murderers end up killing themselves, they don't want to die until they have first murdered as many students and teachers as possible.

Of course, there is virtually no chance that the uniformly left-thinking individuals who run our universities will ever consider this option. To do so would mean abandoning what is essentially a religious-like conviction that guns are immoral rather than the people who use them immorally.

Question 3: Why are "shooter" and "gunman" used instead of "killer" or "murderer"?

If a murderer used a knife to murder five students, no news headlines would read, "Knifeman Kills Five." So why always "shooter" and "gunman"? The most obvious explanation is that by focusing on the weapon used by the murderer, the media can further their anti-gun agenda.

Question 4: Why is "murder" never used to describe homicides involved in these university massacres? And why is "murderer" never used to describe these murderers? Why has "kill" become the only word allowed for deliberate homicide?

Some will say that this is because "murder" is a legal term, and until one is convicted of murder in a court of law, the word should not be used.

I find this unpersuasive. If these murderers can be described as having killed students, then they have in fact committed murder. I believe the major reason for the death of the words "murder" and "murderer" has to do, again, with an unwillingness to make moral judgments, and "murderer" is far more judgmental than "shooter."

Question 5: Would the press note killers' religiosity if they were all Christian?

Imagine for a moment that all the mass murderers at our universities were active Christians. Do you think that the press would at the very least note this? Of course it would, and it would be right to do so.

Yet, to the best of my knowledge, all the recent university mass murderers were secular. Is this worth noting? And if not, why not? Of course, the answer is that few, if any, in the mainstream media would find such a thing worth noting and would likely bristle at its mention. To nearly everyone in the media, the secularism of all the murderers is a non-sequitur. But if they were all active Christians, the same media people would hardly view that fact as insignificant and unrelated.

The fact is that nearly everyone in the mainstream media is secular and therefore cannot imagine associating secularism with anything negative. Secularism is presumed to be all good. But in truth, secularism, a blessing in government, is not a blessing in the lives of most individuals. Now, one can no more blame these college murders on secularism than one could blame Christianity if all the murderers were Christian. But in neither case would it be insignificant.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Poorly Edited?
It looks like the editor omitted Dennis' last point. Having heard Dennis speak on the subject, I'm sure there should have been an additional sentence that read "So why is it that nobody in the media has noted that all of the college campus mass murderers have been secular?"
The answer again is obvious. The main stream media are as anti-religion as they are anti-gun-ownership.

The real pity is that journalism has so declined that it is pro-anything or anti-anything to the extent that it so often affects their reporting of the facts. But I guess that's old news.

Steve Francis
Lomita CA

Good Point Steve
It did seem abrupt at the end for no apparent reason. Your addition rings true to what I would expect Dennis to say in this instance.

Dennis Prager is an anti-anti-intellectual.

Last two prargraphs missing
"Yet, to the best of my knowledge, all the recent university mass murderers were secular. Is this worth noting? And if not, why not? Of course, the answer is that few, if any, in the mainstream media would find such a thing worth noting and would likely bristle at its mention. To nearly everyone in the media, the secularism of all the murderers is a non-sequitur. But if they were all active Christians, the same media people would hardly view that fact as insignificant and unrelated.

The fact is that nearly everyone in the mainstream media is secular and therefore cannot imagine associating secularism with anything negative. Secularism is presumed to be all good. But in truth, secularism, a blessing in government, is not a blessing in the lives of most individuals. Now, one can no more blame these college murders on secularism than one could blame Christianity if all the murderers were Christian. But in neither case would it be insignificant."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/02/five_ques tions_about_shootings.html

& cops call perps "gentlemen" ???
I've heard policemen and police or prosecutor spokesmen say that several times in the news lately.
I suppose it is an affort to not bias anyone against the "innocent until proven guilty" but sometimes they carry it too far.
After the conviction, for exampe.
Can we stop calling convicted, violent, repeat offenders "gentlemen"?

This latest
pettigreat dumb*ss who met his fate on the campus of Northern Illinois University takes as his role model that other genius of self-expression, the Artist Cho, late of Virginia Tech, who came to world prominence last April in his dramatic display of power and will. There's nothing more to say about that character. This is nothing more. Just more of the same.

Is it eighteen people wounded? Four killed. Not counting the scum in that number. I don't have a lot to say about this. What's left to say? A "skinny white guy" with a "stocking cap", whatever that is, or a black cap or a hoodie, with a shotgun and a pistol. The coward assassin saved a bullet for his peabrain. Why do these eh-holes always get the order wrong? Suicide first, then murder.

They are of a piece, these creatures. What is true of one is true of all.

http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2007/04/massacre-cont rol.html

http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2007/04/vision.html

http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2007/04/news-cycle.ht ml

http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2007/04/last-thing-i- have-to-say-about-cho.html


This is what H*ll is for.

J

No sympathy for the tiger's "victim".
I am no animal rights supporter. However, the SF zoo tiger was taunted and threatened by a couple of drunken thugs. That punk that died was not some innocent little kid. The existence of human primacy over animals necessitates human responsibility. The tiger reacted in accordance with its nature. The zoo should sue the family of that "victim" for restitution of the tiger. I feel criminal prosecutions are morally justified (although not legally, unfortunately).

No sympathy for the tiger's "victim".
I am no animal rights supporter. However, the SF zoo tiger was taunted and threatened by a couple of drunken thugs. That punk that died was not some innocent little kid. The existence of human primacy over animals necessitates human responsibility. The tiger reacted in accordance with its nature. The zoo should sue the family of that "victim" for restitution of the tiger. I feel criminal prosecutions are morally justified (although not legally, unfortunately).

I had the same thought
when I heard the death toll included the murderer. It was like they were all equal. I hadn't thought of the religion angle, but you can be sure that if the murderer were a practicing Christian then every effort would be made to have that be the central reason behind the attack.

I wish the press wouldn't even publish the name or post a picture of these slimeballs. Kind of like not showing the streakers or people who run on the field during a telecast of a sporting event.

Finally, I agree that the only true solution to this problem is to have the ability for students to carry concealed weapons. Students are going to start doing it anyway to protect themselves from these cretins. Wouldn't everyone in the room be happy if three guns were drawn when one of these lunatics shows up in a classroom with a rifle and hundreds of rounds of ammunition? Do you think anyone would care about the rights of the potential murderer?




It's not academic

"God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Who are other to? Dead means dead. It is crime yes but it is also a tragedy from any viewpoint.


Allow students to have guns
in a classroom?

What convulsions and tripe.

Question 6
What if the shooter had been Muslim? Would the TH nutters jump all over that fact. You betcha.

Rorschach test
That's what school shootings have become- people see what they want to see. Gun control advocates see it as more proof of there being "too many guns". Pro-gun folks see it as proof of the need for more guns. Religious conservatives see it as prof of rampant secularism. And so on. Prager's positions are as utterly predictable as those of Sarah Brady.

What about saying that this is just a horrible crime and that there are no easy answers? Some reasonable gun laws, such as those preventing gun sales to the mentally ill, might help. I also have nothing against conceal-carry laws, assuming the licensing and training of such persons is rigorous.

And folks, no matter what we do, somethimes bad things happen just because some of our fellow citizens are bad people. Been that way since the dawn of time- was that way in the Old West when everyone had a gun. So get down off that soap box, it's unseemly.

Jim P
I am amazed and angered that you would equate this animalistic murderer's death as a "tragedy". The tragedy is that his girlfriend, who received a suspicious "goodby" letter from him the morning of the murders did not have the brainpower to report the obvious problem and knew he had past mental problems and that he had gone off his medication. Also, there were people of his acquaintance who knew he had recently gotten into guns, though he had never shown an interest in the past. Does it take an instant to realize that all these acquaintences of the murderer contributed by their lack of action to this horror? If all these abnormalities had been reported to the authorities and the college, perhaps this tragedy could have been prevented. Lastly, it is supportive of Dennis Prager's contentions that entirely too much sympathy has been directed by the townspeople in making no judgement against this murderer when they lump in his death as part of the tragedy. This is an insult to the innocent kids who were wantonly mowed down by this monster.

Holes in Argument
1) Specially-trained armed faculty and students may not be present where they are needed. Whether college campus or high school, everybody shifts location every hour or so. The logistics of locating a good shooter where he might be needed would be impossible. And what if he's out with the flu that day?

2) Unless you succeed in turning every trainee into an expert sniper with the reflexes of a Marine commando, he or she may not quite get around to shooting. Regard the Omaha mall shooting. That's a big mall (you can google it) and that shooting took place during the busy Xmas season. Many more people present than would be in any classroom and in a gun-loving state that allows concealed carry, "No Weapons" sign on wall notwithstanding since plenty of townhall posters have admitted they carry where they please. And yet not one shopper shot the shooter---everybody put concern for life and family members first and got the hell out of there.

3) Wouldn't hired armed guards work better? The church shooter was stopped by an employed guard.

Re Question 3
I think it's reaching a bit to suggest that a shooter is called a shooter to draw negative attention to the gun. Calling a shooter a shooter instead of a killer is more accurate because he shoots. A "killer" could be doing anything. Last week while working alone in her New York office one evening a psychologist was hacked to death with a meat cleaver by a deranged person, possibly a former patient, not clear yet. As I recall the killer was called "the attacker" until they found out who he was, then they started calling him by name.

There's that word again!
We hear so much crowing about privacy from the left that we forget its unintended consequence. The so-called "Constitutional right to privacy," which is, ironically, never mentioned in the document itself, has led to a laissez faire attitude towards criminals.

Had the murderer's (see? you CAN say it!) girlfriend reported the good-bye letter to authorities, this rampage might have been averted. Better make that "law enforcement." Had she given the letter to school authorities, they would probably have worried more about a potential murderer's right to privacy than about the rights of innocents to survive. They agonize over the deaths of volunteer military personnel who died in Iraq, but not a word about kids who chose to study Plato, who were murdered.

There is no right to privacy in the Constitution as liberals would try to make you believe, but "insure domestic tranquility" is mentioned in the first sentence. To me, murder seems most un-tranquil.

So, why do lefties choose to put a "right" that is never even mentioned, over an explicitly defined right? Beats me.

Re Secular School vs Religious
I would imagine that one reason the college shootings have occurred at secular schools is that there are more secular schools. Maybe somebody else would like to sit down and count Patrick Henry and Liberty and Bob Jones etc in Column I, and Virginia Teach and NIU and all the secular colleges and universities in Column II, and obviously Column II will be much longer.

But keep trying. There's a column by Chuck Norris tonight blaming the shootings on teaching evolution and legalizing abortion. Since both the VTech shooter and the NIU shooter had a documented history of severe mental illness, by indirection Norris is saying that mental illness is caused by lack of religion, and there are no data supporting such a conclusion. And people can be very religious and very nuts at the same time, as recently when a mother heard the voice of God commanding her to kill all her children (she perceived them to be devils and wanted to save them from the eternal fires of hell).

The REAL point that has been omitted
It that this shooter, as in virtually every other school shooting where the student has committed MASS murder were on Psycotropic drugs. Whether the drug stops working, or the individual "comes off the drug" by stopping taking it it causes all manner of psychotic behavior. What really needs to be examined is the American Psychiatric Association practices of prescribing such potent and powerful MIND altering substances. We need to look at the "side effects" of such drugs as are being prescribed to our children. Read the PDR and examine all the negative and potentially deadly and psychotic side effects of ALL these drugs and stop believing that our MEDICAL associations and the doctors who push this stuff actually KNOW what they are doing. Start questioning and adding two and two and don't use fuzzy math.

Lilly
"3) Wouldn't hired armed guards work better? The church shooter was stopped by an employed guard."

To paraphrase your own post: specially-trained armed employees may not be present where they are needed. The logistics of locating a good shooter where he might be needed would be impossible. And what if he's out with the flu that day?

In a college, students greatly outnumber faculty and staff. In a mall, shoppers greatly outnumber security guards. On the street, civilians greatly outnumber cops. And so on. Adding even one armed citizen to the mix increases the odds that someone will stop a mass-murderer before he stops himself. Please note that in the incident at the Appalachian School of Law (16 Jan 2002), armed students apprehended and restrained the shooter long before police arrived.

Cyclist
I wish the press wouldn't even publish the name or post a picture of these slimeballs. Kind of like not showing the streakers or people who run on the field during a telecast of a sporting event.

I agree, at least some of them leave notes saying they wanted to be famous. No names or pictures should be given.

Mr. Prager's
articles use to contribute something. Now they are a resounding gong and a clanging cymbal.

Lilly
Can you get any of your facts straight? The guard at the New Life church was a volunteer. That means NOT hired. Volunteer. Citizen with a concealed carry permit.
The mall in Omaha was a GUN-FREE zone. That means that citizens with concealed guns leave them outside.
Do you tailor your other "facts" to fit your preconceptions?

Lily
Jean Assam was not an employed guard. She was a volunteer with a CCW.

The killer in Kirkwood, MO shot the police first. Armed security guards are bomb magnets.

Your standard of perfection for concealed carry is silly.

tr
IF the United States is serious about changing how Cuba is govern...Slowly introducing capitalism would be a start. Then you could enjoy a smoke...

Lilly, what are your sources?

The guard at the church in Colorado was a VOLUNTEER. Google it.

I agree with most of this
except the part about the tiger. It is my understanding that the kids were provoking the tiger.

Here was an animal at peace in its own home, minding its own business and along comes a group of bullies trying to aggravate it. The tiger reacted in a perfectly normal and reasonable manner. It is sad that it lost its life because a bunch of disrespectful brats were bored.

TR
My belief is America is NOT weak. My point is..that if we would start to trade with Cuba and introduce Capitalism that it would be a much better place and YOU could go to Cuba and have a smoke. The problem those nasty cubans in Florida are only hurting the people of Cuba.

(tr)
Those Cubans voting in Florida are voting because they are citizens.

Or are you our new Loyal Democrat?

laborlawyer
You missed one. I blame the Sixties. In the Fifties, this sort of thing didn't happen. It started in the Sixties with that guy in a tower at the U. of Texas.

Expect lilly and friends to start shrieking in protest, but the Sixties ended nearly forty years ago. Anyone who can't take an objective look at that decade saying what was good about it and what bad after all that time is pretty pathetic.

(tr)
"answer 1: because the shooter was a person and is now dead. that was easy, prager."

Try re-reading the question, (tr). The question asked about VICTIMS. The shooter was not a victim, but a victimizer.

re:gretske 5:57 AM
While attempting to close a drop-down menu on my screen, I inadvertantly clicked on the "Flag as Offensive" button on gretske's 5:57 AM post. This was a grievous error on my part. gretske's comment is in no way offensive and, indeed, I agree with gretske completely. Any TH webmaster who reads this: I hope you will remove my flag.

I am terribly sorry, gretske. This was an unfortunate accident.

(tr)
So, let's say I don't believe in any God. Then what?

Then you'd agree with me and Prager?

Shrinque
Inadvertent rejection does not bother me, I have had much worse criticism that was deliberate.

MLD
"Warpublican propandist"

Please try to use English on this board. Oh, and a spelling checker would be nice.

Lilly
"1) Specially-trained armed faculty and students may not be present where they are needed. Whether college campus or high school, everybody shifts location every hour or so. The logistics of locating a good shooter where he might be needed would be impossible. And what if he's out with the flu that day?"
[So we shouldn't even allow the possibility that someone could respond because they might not be able to? Isn't the deterrent effect of possible resistance preferable to a certified herd of unarmed victims in a "gun free" zone]

2) Unless you succeed in turning every trainee into an expert sniper with the reflexes of a Marine commando, he or she may not quite get around to shooting. Regard the Omaha mall shooting. That's a big mall (you can google it) and that shooting took place during the busy Xmas season. Many more people present than would be in any classroom and in a gun-loving state that allows concealed carry, "No Weapons" sign on wall notwithstanding since plenty of townhall posters have admitted they carry where they please. And yet not one shopper shot the shooter---everybody put concern for life and family members first and got the hell out of there.
[You presume gun owners blithely ignore the law and carry guns where they are prohibited. If you believe that, then you've as much as admitted that you don't believe gun laws work. No?]

3) Wouldn't hired armed guards work better? The church shooter was stopped by an employed guard.
[The church security guard was a volunteer]

t r
"SQUAWCK"!!!

Did someone hear something strange around here?

"SQUAWCK"!!!

There it goes again!

From "tr" to "(tr)" to "(tr"....

The fool knows why he gets banned... but it takes a sick, demented, psychopathic person to not only post what the fool posts, but to keep coming back to do it.

Just ignore the druggie. Like wobbie and hald and some of the others, they either 1. have no interest in debate or discussion, or 2. are incapable of debate of discussion, or 3. all of the above.

Shootings
Why concealed weapons; why not just weapons? Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms has nothing to do with permits. Wear a weapon (knife or gun) either open or concealed. The mass murderer would see the world in a different light if members of the student body carried weapons in the open and concealed. Campuses should have rife and pistol ranges. One semester of Physical Education could include firearms safety and the laws respecting proper use of weapons for defense.

Answers
#1 -- Because the liberal left deny the very concept of right and wrong (while, at the same time, insisting that they are right and everyone else is wrong), so they have become as incapable of making moral judgments as if they were animals instead of human beings.

#2 -- The Concealed Carry Permit option is self-evident. When was the last mass killing that took place at a gun shop, a shooting range, or a Friends of the NRA dinner? Its obvious to any *reasoning* mind that students who have a Concealed Carry permit should be able to carry their guns on campus.

Those who think can see this clearly. Unfortunately, society has given into the mindless tantrums thrown by those who emote instead of think.

#3 & #4 -- Again we find that utter rejection of moral reasoning. IMO, its rather like the way a small child will hide under a blanket to make the monsters in the closet go away. If left-liberals deny that evil can exist then they don't have to admit that there are evil people in the world who would as soon kill them as eat breakfast. Denial makes them feel more comfortable.

Thinking adults know that there are predators in the world. Thinking adults know that the real world isn't Disneyland and that covering our heads with blankets won't make the real monsters among us go away.

#5 -- What else do you expect from people's whose entire world view is based in the feel-good fantasy that evil doesn't exist? They HAVE to deny that these mass murderers share their philosophical views because otherwise they would have to cast off their protective blankets.

To steal a metaphor from Terry Pratchett,

Liberals are deeply invested in denying that monsters exist. Thus when the monsters come out from under the bed and rip the blanket of denial away from them they can only cower and call for better blankets.

Conservatives believe in the monsters. But they also believe, very firmly, in the poker.*



*see "Hogfather"

Institutionalization
Both the VA Tech "killer" and the NIU "killer" had mental problems which required medication. In both cases they stopped taking their meds. Why on Earth weren't they monitored? Oh let me see their "privacy rights" prevented it. If these people were sick enough to require meds then they were in deed a danger to society. This country will post photos, names and addresses of sex offeneders on the internet for all to see but if someone is mentaly unstable and a danger to others his/her privacy trumps security. This policy of opening the institutions and letting the inmates out started with the book & movie "One Flew Over the Cokoo's Nest". Now there isn't a major city which is not overrun with these people many of which are counted among the homeless. This is just one more example of the liberals leading with their hearts and not with their heads while the rest of us having to pay the price for their "compassion".

O Lilly, Wherefore Art Thou?
Lilly,

I noticed some fairly strong rebuttals of the arguments in your posts. I further noticed that have no answers to those rebuttals, at least not yet.

I have heard that you are in your sixties, and therefore should be somewhat more dignified than some of us "younguns." Surely, if that's the case, you would have the courtesy to concede an argument in which the other person has made stronger and more rational points.

In Re: That Killer Tiger
The media, and now the morally-blind left-liberals on this thread have gone on and on and on about the killer tiger being taunted but I fail to see why it should matter at all.

IMO, the zoo is just trying to divert attention away their choice to not build their walls high enough.

After all, anyone who could believe that no idiot would ever come along and tease/taunt/harass the zoo animals is a bigger idiot than the taunters are. People are stupid and they're going to do stupid stuff like that.

The guy may be up for a Darwin Award next year, but its still 100% the zoo's fault for not building an enclosure capable of holding a tiger NO MATTER WHAT. The zoo shouldn't be able to weasel out of it by talking about taunting when the tiger could just as well have attacked an innocent kid or somebody's 80yo grandmother once it decided to jump out.

Animals are not capable of moral choices. Humans are.

Those humans who lower themselves to the level of animals by refusing to make moral choices will, nonetheless, still be held responsible for what they have done, said, and advocated.

Its the tiger's nature to kill. The sole responsibility for confining the tiger and preventing the killer lies upon the zoo that chose to bring the tiger close to humans. Denying that some humans are idiots does not prevent those humans from being idiots.

Gretske
Preamble to the US Constitution: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

"Preamble to the Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

How about starting a movement to make the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness part of the US constitution via an amendment?
Imagine the screams.

flagging
I only flag people that come on here and constantly degrade the author.If you don't agree with the author fine.You will notice this when Coulter,Limbaugh and Malkin write.

The answers are ...
The answers to the first four are we can't be judgemental, except toward Christians, which is the answer to number 5.

Very well said mother of 4
One thing I’m curious about is why the press continues to greatly downplay the drug issue? All I’ve ever heard about it was he “went off an undisclosed medication”. Well, WTF was that medication and why are they not identifying it? This is critical to the crime and, therefore, critical to the reporting. Suppressing these facts only makes the reporting seem manipulative, coerced and forcing an agenda on the public; which, by the way, is exactly what the media does today. Hell, many in the industry have even leaked admission of this agenda.
Frankly I find it sicker than the crimes that were committed that some executives in the media feel the need to manipulate public morality.

Back to the point, does anyone know what that drug was?

Flagging
I hear you, Union Dude.

Insults and derogatory/offensive statements that serve no other purpose than to be offensive should not be allowed to remain.

Example: tr constantly insulting Michelle Malkin.

JFP
True, we did not have "mass shootings" in the fifties. We had lynchings, like that of Emmett Till. While some of you people see the Sixties as nothing more than this era of wretched excess on the part of college-age people, the murderous activity was started by adult Klansmen. If you aren't old enough to remember, hit Wikipedia and look up Viola Liuzzo and Medgar Evers. And while you're there, perhaps you could read about the shootings of students at Kent State. Our very own Tiananmen Square.

We didn't start to have mass shootings in great numbers until the feds started enacting "gun control" laws. Which were modeled directly on those of Nazi Germany, and whose authors in congress did not make it much of a secret that they were worried about blacks arming themselves.

Notice how well those laws have worked?

MIDoggg writes:
"Prager is far more concerned with making gunners feel better about themselves, their cowardice and their insecurity knowing that they are far more dangerous to America than any Islamo-facist!"

How clever, MIDoggg, to apply the word "gunner" to owners of firearms!!

Actually that was just a bit of left wing rhetoric that is basically meaningless, as is your description of firearms owners as cowards.

Your assertion that they are far more dangerous to America than any Islamo-fascist is a hyperbolic indication that you are far, far out of touch with reality.

MIDoggg, it is not responsible firearms owners that are dangerous to America. Actually it's people like you with your idiotic notion of reality.

JFP
You're almost right about the Sixties.

In the halcyon days of the Fifties, what we had were mostly lynchings of black people like Emmett Till.

The egregious shootings that started in the Sixties were initially the work of a bunch of throwbacks, i.e. Klansmen. Medgar Evers, 1963. Viola Liuzzo, 1965.

And our very own Tiananmen Square, the government shooting of students at Kent State University. (BTW, the site of those shootings does not contain a memorial. It was deliberately obliterated.)

Aside from Whitman, the violence did not start until congress started passing "gun control" laws. It's no coincidence that Senator Dodd modeled those laws directly upon those of Nazi Germany, and it's hardly a secret that the government's intent was to keep those pesky negroes from arming themselves in self-defense.


Stan47
Since you're going to bring up Kent State, let me bring up the guy who died in Madison in August of 1970 because the left blew up what they thought was a vacant building.

Everyone is always being reminded of Kent State, but not many have heard of the Madison bombing.

Oops
Apologies for the duplicate rant.

DJF
I'll be going to a monthly meeting tonight at the shooting club. At least 50% of the men there will be carrying. At least 10% of the women will be carrying. Anyone who has bought a new gun this past month will be bringing it to show his/her friends.

Safest place I'll go all week. ;)

What was that?
"SQUAWCK"!!!

Whats that smell?

"SQUAWCK"!!!

Mom O'Four
Good point. What is the safest place you can think of? A police station, where everyone is carrying!

Lilly is prolific.....
though misguided. See her post on Dr. Sowell's column today.

Lilly, please go back on your medication!

Learned Hand
Depends on whether or not we would jump all over a Muslim or not.

Did the Muslim do it because he was off his rocker or did he do it in the name of Allah?

Favorite guns
So, what are some of y'alls favorite guns?

I like a standard .38 special, and sometimes a .357 magnum. I have been issued automatics, such as a 9mm and a .45 caliber while in the Army, but I have always preferred revolvers. Don't know why, I just do.

Of course, like people have been known to say, nothing provides home defense quite like a good 12 gauge pump action shotgun. The sound of the pump alone tends to intimidate.

To the mentally challenged
Your ridiculous reasoning:

Unless the victim is a .300 hitter on the baseball team, he/she should be prohibited from using a baseball bat to defend themself against an attacker.

Unless the victim has demonstrated proficiency with a knife, they should not be allowed to use one to defend themself against an attacker.

An obvious oversimplification, perhaps, but, illustrative nevertheless.

Curtal Friar
I agree...hard to beat a 12ga loaded with 00-buck. I also favor my .44 MAG and .357 MAG revolvers, and for good measure my 9mm pistols. Can never have too much firepower.

journalism's from of objectivity
Some of these questions are interesting in the way that they get at how newspapers see their role of being objective. Liberals complain when the President repeats something blatently untrue, which has been widely shown to be untrue, and the newspapers instead of noting that he is lying simply put his statement next to a report of the earlier evidence against it.

Newspaper critics defend this kind of thing on the grounds that it is not their job to make judgements for people.

For similar reasons, newspapers do not tend to call people murderers because they figure people can make their own judgements, particularly in cases like this in which the judgement is so automatic.

Of course this does not explain why murderers are counted as victims in the tally. But the simplest explanation is that they aren't, and Prager has not given any evidence that they are. Some people who are dead are dead because they are victims, and some people who are dead are dead for other reasons.

In both of these cases it seems that objectivity goes a bit far. There is nothing wrong with calling someone who shoots up a campus a murderer (although there are reasons to be cautious about calling someone who is accused of being the one who did so, a murderer). And there is nothing wrong with noting that someone lied when the evidence is sufficient.

But the newspapers tend to bend over backwards to avoid using such loaded terms. And, of course, by selectively picking examples one can make it look like they do this in only one direction.

Curtal Friar....
I have a 12 guage double with 20 inch barrels, external hammers (which most people can hear), for home defense. Easy to wield in confined spaces and plenty effective. I use no. 8 bird shot. At close home-defense ranges it is about as deadly as anything, but is not as likely to penetrate walls to hurt innocents at long range.

For my CCW, I use a 2" barrel, 5-shot .38 cal revolver with hollow points. At expected self defense ranges it is difficult to miss even with this short barrel and is sufficient unless the perp is wearing body armor.

Of course the best effect a home defense weapon has is deterence. One would hope that announcing that one is armed and/or displaying the weapon will be sufficient.

Fortunately, I have never even had to display one.

Favorite Guns
At one time, I owned several handguns. I loved going out to the range on Saturday morning to shoot off a few rounds. To that end, I had bought many guns to "try them out." The largest number of them ended up being sold to others, as they really weren't my cup of tea.

some of the more memorable weapons I owned, for different reasons:

Raven Arms .25 Auto: I just had to buy one and see how a little job like that would handle. After firing it about three or four different times at the range, I had to sell it to someone else. It was amazing how much accuracy you lost at ten yards. I think I would be more intimidated by a good pellet gun.

Ruger Super blackhawk .44 Magnum (blue steel version): One of my favorites. Of course, it would have been totally impractical as a concealed carry weapon, but man, it sure was fun practicing with it.

Tec-9: Can't remember the manufacturer. Basically, a cheaper version of a Mac-10. Not very practical for home defense or concealed carry. Definitely would be a deterrent if you could legally carry it around with the strap over your shoulder and the gun itself at your side ready to be fired at need. Ahhh....one can dream. Thirty two round magazine, 9mm hollowpoints, ready to go. Wouldn't it have been sweet if Cho had come storming onto campus with his guns, only to have some other students turn around and have these babies ready to go? Would be kind of like the ending of "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid," except no one would feel sorry for the outlaw.

Paleocon
You waste your time attempting to use Reason with Lilly. Below is a Post Ive previously placed on TH that sums Lilly, the Lying Loony Lib.

Her posts criticize others, but this Socialist Nut Case never responds when criticized for her ill conceived, inaccurate comments which usually contain distortions or lies. Her head is buried so far into rectal deprivation that she’ll never see the light. At best she’s viewed as just another crackpot Lib and ignored or laughed at. At worst, she’s loathed and bashed for her Socialist inspired views and the liar she often is. What I can’t understand is why she continues to seek such abuse. Perhaps she’s a masochist or just delusional; thinking she’ll actually convince someone. Perhaps she could if she were reasonably intelligent, rational, and presented well thought out arguments. And perhaps we’d take her more seriously if she responded to comments and criticism. But she never does, when confronted with her distortions, half truths and occasional lies. She’s sometimes referred to as “The Sea Gull”. She takes a stinking dump and then flies away. But this in itself says something about “Lilly”. As with most Libs, she can’t handle criticism. She never fires back a response because she has no ammunition. There’s a wonderful word for garbage like her: “IGNORANUS” = IGNORANT, and an A** HOLE.

Since “Lilly the Lying Loony Lib” probably won’t go away, perhaps it’s best to just ignore her in the hope she’ll crawl back under the rock form which she came. Or to put it another way: Refuse to engage in a battle of wits with the INTELLECTUALLY DISARMED.....LMAO

Guns
Speaking of guns, one that I have had my eye on for some time is the Desert Eagle .50 "super" magnum.

Has anyone out there ever owned or fired one of those? If so, how was the experience? Is it a handgun you would recomment?

Oops
"Has anyone out there ever owned or fired one of those? If so, how was the experience? Is it a handgun you would recomment?"

This should read "recommend."

had a point, jumped the shark
Prager had a point earlier in his article, then jumped the shark in trying to make the religiosity of the murderer an issue of whether or not the press would have considered it relevant, on liberal or conservative terms.
Puhleeze, we've had so many of these shootings committed (mostly by males, and mostly by a person with a history of mental illness), that it really doesn't matter what the religion of the murderer was.
What these shootings DO point out are these:
1. That our mental health system of in hospital care is vital.

2. The ease at which a person with mental problems can get a gun is seriously problematic.

3. A committed team of terrorists can see many opportunities all over this country for gun related carnage.

I'm not the least bit concerned with the finger pointing at liberals or conservatives. But at the inexcusable lack of stones when it comes to being realistic about dangerous people in our midst.

Shootings
Corktip 9:09am
Excellent point. In the event shooting ranges, and carrying weapons are not soon allowed then what else is possible for defense?
I am thinking that as long as rocks are not outlawed, then students should carry rocks in their backpacks to class. A young David killed a frightful giant with one rock, but because of his faith and training he was prepared to destroy that secularist fool. I understand that baseball players can throw a mean ball.
Backbacks with bulletproof shields outa be prescribed(if I could figure out how to put them together and make them available I would).
Keep thinking of solutions. Also pray to God who loves us all. David did that more than most and better (his words are in the Holy Bible).

many of you can point at yourselves
I don't know how many times, if it's a Doug Giles or Matt Barber article to point out that their brand of media gay bashing riles you up over issues that aren't worth getting upset over.
I have pointed out my law enforcement background and assured you of who we really have to worry about in our society, and at no time has anyone asked me about my experience or even the data I'm privy to because of professional privilege.
The point is, people are going to see what they want to, be fearful where they don't have to be, as long as a convenient scapegoat is around to distract from the real issues that matter.
Liberals AND conservative have valid work to do. But I don't see anyone working to cooperate and be truly effective.
I'm so over all the useless bashing, and lack of courage to focus on the symptoms of each and every mass shooting we keep having on a weekly basis in America.
The casualties of shootings equal that of war zones in any given part of the world.
That is the shame of this country, while the liberal bashing and blame game goes on.
Prager didn't offer any bright ideas on prevention, and neither does most of the usual members of this these threads.

Lost respect for Prager
Dennis has lost a lot of my respect, for what its worth. He used to have a sense of history but not now.

Many of you children do not remember the Sam Shepard murder case where the media had no restraint in covering the trial and had him convicted and sentenced before the verdict. His conviction was ultimately overturned because of "pre-trial" publicity which tainted the jury.

And again, when Richard Nixon called Charles Manson "that murderer in California", there was active discussion of calling a mistrial. When the president of the United States calls you a murderer, it carries a lot of weight.

There are reasons the media does what it does. Once a misstatement is out there it is difficult, if not impossible, to get it back.

Can any of you forget the cop at the Atlanta Olympics who was accused of setting the bomb. It took years to clear his name, which I've forgotten.

Killers as Victims
The reason the killers and the victims are lumped together is because they are both victims.
Killers do not make themselves. They are made like the rest of us by nature (which they can't control) and by experience)which they cannot control). They like the rest of us do what our brains direct us to do.
Any notion of "free will" is absurd.

Some responses
scottie - excellent rebuttal of lilly's points. I was thinking the exact same things when I read her post.

curtal - just so you know - "wherefore" means why, not where.

Get A Life!
Sometimes, Dennis gets wrapped up in trying to find meaning that fits his agenda. In this case, there is little meaning and nothing that really fits his agenda. To suggest that including the murderer in the total number of deaths has some moral significance is preposterous. One could as easily argue that omitting the murderer from the count would be inaccurate reporting.

Ragnar Deneskjold
" You waste your time attempting to use Reason with Lilly."

You may be right. I'm fairly new at posting comments, and I tend to assume that strangers are -- or may become -- reasonable. I gotta work on that.

Sixth Question
As a few have noted, it's the drug, stupid.

Fritz
I don't know. Sometimes details can be revealing -- especially in the utterances of those who make their living with words.

Ever notice how many politicians blur uncomfortable terms when no euphemism is available? (Most, for example, rush past _sosecurity_ because lingering over every syllable in _Social Security_ might set voters to thinking about how socialist and insecure it is.) And what can we conclude about broadcasters who still refuse to say "President Bush"?

Many journalists cling to playbooks, talking points, templates, formulas, and trite expressions because they can't compose an intelligible shopping list on their own. But that's a separate issue.

Guns in a classroom?
Some of you are probably under the wrong-headed assumption that allowing people to carry guns wherever they go will result in everyone carrying a gun everywhere. The reality is that most of the country has conceal/carry permit laws, which means that most places you go, someone could legally be concealing a firearm. So, if you ask yourself, "What would it be like if people were allowed to carry concealed firearms." The answer is, "What is it like to live in the United States?"

If this scares you, and you would like to live in a state that does not issue concealed carry permits in order to feel safer, then I have the perfect state for you: Illinois.

So, if some of you clear-headed out there were thinking, "Well, I'm not really comfortable with students or teachers bringing a firearm to school, but I wouldn't have a problem with someone bringing a taser to class." Tasers are non-lethal, so hitting an innocent bystander would not result in serious permanent injury. Tasers also incapacitate their targets no matter where they hit the target, whereas firearms have to strike the head or chest to effectively incapacitate the target. If this seems reasonable to you; well, my fellow clear-headed friends, this option is not on the table for Illinoisans, because carrying a taser is ILLEGAL in the Democratic People's Republic of Illinois thanks to Chairman Rod Blagojevich.

The Inmates Running the Asylum
In his article, Dennis said:
"Until the morally confused took over the universities and the news media, murderers were never counted along with their victims."

My issue is partly: WHY did the morally confused take over.

But mostly, my concern is this: WHY did we let the morally confused take over?

Back "in the day," when the morally confused were clammoring for power like a toddler on steroids, WHY did we just say "WHATever," and let them have at it?

As the Lefties were grabbing at power, were we too dignified to grab back?

How much of it was that these people got in by stealth, not admitting their true agenda until they and their cronies were well enstaunched?

But if so, why did we again say: "WHATever," as they frenzedly changed every American institution until they were unrecognizable?

Why did we just roll over as these things happened? Did we believe that our country was so durable that it would take any quantity of abuse and still stand?

Our country is in moral decline less than 250 years after its inception. Most great nations in history lasted much longer before the decline began.

I suggest that the decline is caused by a deliberate infestation of moral termites eating away at our ship of state, hoping it will eventually sink. Meanwhile, the sailors are blithly ignoring the situation below as they swab the ill-fated deck.

Paleocon
Since you’re new on TH, I will tell you that the Infamous Lilly, the Lying Loony Lib, has been a plague on TH for at least a year and likely longer. Her arguments are flawed, irrational, often off topic, and often contain lies. Since you’re new here I should also tell you there are a few others like her using the following screen names: “King Liberal”, “Robert”, “jetpilot” and “Hal Donohue”; to name a few of the more infamous and obnoxious ones. Just be for-warned and prepared when you encounter one of these nut cases.

Response to bporter
bporter writes:

"curtal - just so you know - "wherefore" means why, not where."

That meaning works.

Don't you sometimes look at Lilly's posts and want to ask her "Why?"

Paul
Your post was absurd. But then, I suppose you had no choice in writing it, as I had no choice in responding, since according to you we are mindless drones forced down whatever path we take by nature.

None Dare Call it Treason, Rose
Treason doth never prosper:
what's the reason?
For if it prosper,
none dare call it treason.

-Sir John Harrington

Chuck Norris write:
Unbeknown to many, GOP presidential candidate Mike Huckabee has written several books while during his tenure as governor of Arkansas. A decade ago he wrote "Kids Who Kill," which examines and seeks remedies for school shootings. In it, he points to many modern day factors that contribute to a culture of killing. Among them are a devaluing and disregard for human life; a greater parental disconnection and immoral license with their children; a fascination with antiheroes or gangsters that breeds cynicism, disrespect, antagonism and selfishness; a false sense of self-worth or a perceived incapability of obtaining status, notoriety or contentment; a thirst for adrenaline and extremes to acquire attention, as well as pushing the envelope of rebellion, chaos and brutality; the impersonalizing of society through such devices as the Internet and frequent transient shifts in employment, living localities and friendships; the legislation of subversive morality; an abandonment of a fellowship and moral center of community like a church; and a complete disregard for moral absolutes.

Read the whole article here:

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=5661 9

laborlawyer's Rorschach test.
" Some reasonable gun laws, such as those preventing gun sales to the mentally ill, might help."

I agree, but many times these people slip through the negligent cracks of government itself. Specifically, the 3rd. question of the State of Illinois': "APPLICATION FOR FIREARM OWNER’S IDENTIFICATION CARD" form asks the applicant the following, and I quote:

"3. In the past 5 years, have you been a patient in any medical facility or part of any medical facility
used primarily for the care or treatment of persons for mental illness?

In the "past 5 years" Steven Kazmierczak, 27, had not been in the kind of mental facility that this question asks. Furthermore, Kazmierczak had received a psychological discharge from the Army that the form does not query. However, in order to receive the prescriptions for the Prozac he must have been under an MD's care, psychiatric or general. Had the question asked "..."have you EVER been in a facility for the treatment of persons with mental illness" or received a mental discharge from the military, the truthful answers would have been "yes" and stopped his application to buy any firearm in Illinois. BTW, it is federal law that one must purchase a firearm in the state of residence. The erroneous presumption by many that one can simply go to another state and purchase a gun is wrong. Such an attempt is a federal felony.

So, laborlawyer, just what do you propose for more controls? In this case, I'd say that the State of Illinois should review its firearm purchase forms (available in pdf download, btw), and fire the lawyer who approved their present form.

This issue, though many would like it to be, is not about guns. It's about the mentally ill and the lack of political will to deal with the problems they pose to society when they are left "vigorously" unsupervised.

Think about what the children .......
have to live/listen to each day. Suppose that your child accidentally hit a button on your computer and was able to read all your blogs comments.

How much hate and vitriol being spoken to fellow Americans, fellow Republicans, fellow Democrats, but yet the parent tells the child to get along in school.

You people are a joke!!

No, you do not have your children's attention, the hip hop rappers do, by the millions at that.

America needs to WTF up. Meth labs are growing, new deadly games like choking are rising.

gretske
Amen!

Thoughts
When did a college president get the power to override the Constitution?

One columnist wrote the names of the students who were murdered. I can not remember the names, but I read them 3 times. I make a conscious effort not to read or listen to the names of the vile scum MURDERERS who MURDER the innocent.

The arguments of the leftist morons who refuse to let law abiding citizens exercise their constitutional rights are destroyed by the actions of the off-duty police officer/security guard (????) at the mid-west church. She blew the F@#$%# slime ball away when the F@#$%# tried to attack the church. The lesson is that when good guys have guns, innocent lives are saved.

It is not possible to legislate safety!
However, every lawfully armed person increases the risk for every criminal.

Those who have an irrational fear of firearms should be informed that the mere presence of a gun club bumper sticker on their neighbor's vehicle will make their home safer.

Police response time is usually so long that any crime can be finished and the criminal safely away before police arrive to fill out forms.
Response time for an armed neighbor can be under 90 seconds!

Lolo-Ssgt-Anne-Gretske
These Liberal Academics are the same geniuses that think because they put a sign up that says 'Drug-Free Zone', that area IS A DRUG-FREE ZONE!

But he was religious
And no, it is not news that the gunman/murderer was. Just like there are roughly as many abortions for Christian (slightly higher but hardly significant), I would expect that the ratio of problems is equal among religious vs non-religious.

The NIU shooting was done by a Christian. Big deal. So were most shootings simply because there is a higher percentage of Christians in the US. My point is that by Prager pointing it out (he is assuming that Christians get an unfair shake in the news) he is calling attention to the fact that Christians do most of the shooting/killing.

Why would Prager make such an amateur mistake? He must know that some people reading his column have a brain and/or research skills. Pander away.

MlDogg
You are parroting anti-gun FICTION!
Save this link for refference.
The menu will guide you to truth.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=209

Lolo-Gretske-Ssgt
These Liberal Academics are the same geniuses that think because they put a sign up that says 'Drug-Free Zone', that area IS A DRUG-FREE ZONE!

Lolo-Gretske-Ssgt
These Liberal Academics are the same geniuses that think because they put a sign up that says 'Drug-Free Zone', that area IS A DRUG-FREE ZONE!

myopine2
MLD always parrots fiction. Maybe he gets a cracker for doing it :)!

open carry laws
It is my understanding that here in California it is perfectly legal to "open carry" a weapon. The weapon must not be loaded but ammunition may be carried in a pocket. There are websites that detail the laws pertaining to open carry laws and of course if you decide to test the laws be prepared to be confronted by security and police personnel because the do not have knowledge of the law. Some of the websites have stories about people that have tested this law.

MlDoggg
Due mainly to irrational fears, we have some very irrational laws in America.
Prior to giving out bad advice, you should acquaint yourself with the laws of self defense using a firearm and civil laws regarding dog bits.

Only criminals and cowards fear guns in the hands of honest men.

A previous poster said,
"Students are going to start doing it anyway to protect themselves from these cretins."

I did.

Carry a gun on campus,
this is.

Whosebone
The best authority on firearms carry for CA is http://www.CRPA.org

We have some very strict laws on transfer of firearms also.

AND;
We have some real nut cases enforcing our CA laws.
LIKE;
A hunter wearing a hunting knife in a restraunt puts on his jacket to leave.
Jacket covers knife, hunter is arrested for a concealed weapon!

Georgetwin
Georgetwin writes: Tuesday, February, 19, 2008 1:08 PM
These Liberal Academics are the same geniuses that think because they put a sign up that says 'Drug-Free Zone', that area IS A DRUG-FREE ZONE!

Only a TH-er would think that there are ANY people in the world who think that posting a sign makes it so.

Just because those in academia tend to be Liberal is no reason to be jealous. If you paid more attention in school maybe you'd be Liberal too.

Anti-gun?
"in 2001 there were over 11,000 homicides with guns (in america)."

Okay, but don't forget the other side of the equation. It is generally agreed that anywhere from 250,000 to 2,500,000 times a year, citizens protect themselves from violent attack or death by welding a gun, even if they don't use it.

I agree except for tiger
Because God has given us dominion over the rest of creation, we are supposed to be good stewards of the earth and of the other denizens. That means responsible treatment of animals. With our rights comes responsibility.

In the San Francisco zoo case, the tiger was taunted by three thugs who had been smoking marijuana and drinking before going to the zoo. They CLIMBED OVER THE OUTER SECURITY FENCE, which visitors are not supposed to do for their own safety. They dangled their feet over the tiger's moat, threw things at the tiger and taunted her.

The tiger lost many of her claws trying to get out of that enclosure. The vet report showed the damage. She REALLY wanted to get those thugs for what they had done to her. And I sympathize with her for that. Any animal will respond if it is taunted enough. The fact that she made no attempt to injure anyone except those three idiots shows she had a motive, she wasn't just trying to kill human beings, she was being very selective.

I feel sorrier about the loss of the tiger than those drunken jerks because the world has plenty of jerks, but too few tigers.

inthemajority
"Only a TH-er would think that there are ANY people in the world who think that posting a sign makes it so."

That is exactly the point made about liberals. That they think posting a sign makes it so.

And only someone who gets a bad education at a university could twist it around like you did.

Gun Laws?
Just ONE, (1), example;
After the Kennedy assassination, based upon emotion rather than logic, The "Gun Control Act of 1968" was passed .
The murder rate averaged %50 higher during the next five years, 75% higher during the next five years and 81% during the next five years and other crimes increased proportionately.

Those are not just numbers on paper, these numbers are family members being murdered, teenage girls suffering nightmares caused by being raped and not knowing if they are now pregnant, or have AIDS or syphilis or? Little old grandmothers beaten and crippled during muggings that should never have happened!
These numbers are people just like you, just like your friends & family!

People who encourage simplistic legislation to disarm honest citizens and make crime safer are directly responsible for the added crime that results.

We now have over 20,000 (and counting), simplistic anti-gun laws that were passed as placebos to pacify simple minded people who just can't comprehend the fact that criminals, by definition, do not obey laws! Many criminals are unaware most anti-gun laws exist.
Legislators don't care about your safety. They carry guns and have armed guards.
They know anti-gun laws endanger us peasants but they will still give you placebo legislation to get your vote.
Only honest citizens who are being disarmed and made into helpless victims will obey anti-gun laws and when they do, people like you are responsible for them being robbed, raped and murdered.

Every gun in the hands of an honest person increases the odds against criminals and makes you and those you love a little bit safer.
Criminals know how long it takes Police to respond. Police arrive after the crime and fill out forms.
Only someone armed and nearby can stop a crime.

inthemajority writes:
Georgetwin
Georgetwin writes: Tuesday, February, 19, 2008 1:08 PM
These Liberal Academics are the same geniuses that think because they put a sign up that says 'Drug-Free Zone', that area IS A DRUG-FREE ZONE!

Only a TH-er would think that there are ANY people in the world who think that posting a sign makes it so.

Just because those in academia tend to be Liberal is no reason to be jealous. If you paid more attention in school maybe you'd be Liberal too.

I did pay attention in school, and became a conservative. Liberals seem to think that only they are intelligent or well educated.

To risk being repetitive
Politically Correct thought and language will be the death of us all.

The term itself is a euphemism for what it really is: LIES

dave
I did the math on this the other day. If you conservatively figure that we have 200 million guns in this country, and allow a high figure of 15 thousand gun deaths per year, it works out like this:

Less than one one hundreth of one percent of guns in this nation are used to kill. Now to the average leftist, that is a staggeringly high figure. But to anyone who removes emotion from the math, it is miraculously low.

Just remember
If you criminalize flamethrowers, then the only people with flamethrowers will be criminals!

Seriously, lets remember the innocents who have been harmed or died, not foam at the mouth about what has already happened.

dave
dave writes: Tuesday, February, 19, 2008 1:28 PM
"That is exactly the point made about liberals. That they think posting a sign makes it so."

Ummmm. No. The only illogical statements ever made about people believing signs comes from TH.

Only a TH poster would think that someone would believe posting a sign makes it so. -- Statement still stands as is. Nobody else (Liberal or otherwise) has ever said or written this to me. Nor have I ever read this on any other blog.

OK, my turn: Only Dave and Georgetwin think that people post signs because they think it will create truth. Conservatives think that by destroying the Constitution will it make us safer. Only Conservatives think that by putting our troops in harm's way for oil that they are supporting the troops, and all others are traitors.

See? TH logic is easy! Not very satisfying because of its lack of any logic, but still very easy.

inthemajority wrote:
"Just because those in academia tend to be Liberal is no reason to be jealous. If you paid more attention in school maybe you'd be Liberal too."

I paid a lot of attention in school but was fortunate enough to go when schools educated students in how to think, long before schools became "reeducation centers" where kids are indoctrinated into what to think. Ergo, I've never been a liberal, nor will I ever be one.

Keep packing heat, you GOP fools
And leave the schooling to us liberals. There are plenty of good jobs waiting for someone who knows how to use a gun. Matter of fact, there's a couple of wars out there where we could use your help. Me? I'll continue using my liberal education to enjoy my liberal well-paying job and live in my liberal, safe-as-can-be, community.

Re; Mldoggg
Since this fruitcake is back, I again offer him this challenge. Lets see if he does better with it this time. Or likely he'll run from it.

Here are some “INCONVENIENT TRUTHS” some refuse to deal with in their Fantasy of a "Gun Free Society".

1: At the end of 2007 there were 290 Million Registered & an estimated 120 Million Unregistered guns. By 2009 an estimated HALF BILLION guns will be in circulation. 90 Million people own guns. 1 out of 3 homes has a gun. The DOJ admits it couldn't put dent in these numbers, and these numbers are INCREASING.

2. I know a lot of cops. Most are conservatives who believe in the 2ed Amd. All say if charged with the DANGEROUS task of gun confiscation they’d refuse due to litigation and the public relations disaster re; Hurricane Katrina gun confiscation, and the fact they’d have to enter homes of neighbors, and friends. Then there’s the risk from people like me who’d not hesitate using DEADLY FORCE to protect 2ed Amd rights. The war on drugs, which has police cooperation, is a failure. Think of the failure gun confiscation would be with limited or no enforcement. And an un-enforced law essentially ceases to exist.

3: The 1 alternative left to gun control fanatics is their REAL AGENDA: Repeal the 2ed Amd, as was done with the 18th. But the 18th was VERY UNPOPULAR. The 2ed has strong support; and as part of the Bill of Rights, is viewed as sacred and highly resistant to repeal. Any attempt to get 38 gun friendly States, & 2/3 of the House and Senate to repeal is a Lib Wet Dream Fantasy. A Gun Free Society will remain a FANTASY; believed only by the DELUSIONAL and the terminally STUPID. So I offer this challenge: SHOW ME A PRACTICAL WAY TO IMPLEMENT THIS FANTASY. So far, no one has done so. Any takers?

Lumberjack
Monsters are in the movies; human beings are in real life. A mentally ill person, who by whatever failure of treatment is led to commit a terrible act, is still a human being. Should we not mourn the loss of a life, however twisted? Of course it is terrible when murder is committed, but the life of the murderer is lost as well, whether he dies on the spot or dies slowly afterwards. And I believe there is something in Christianity about forgiving the sinner?

Once upon a time, and in the United States, and not so very long ago, the mentally ill were chained in cells and received no treatment at all. On Sundays nice people went to view mentally ill people as they raged and muttered---like a sideshow, like animals in the zoo. Even in Republicanworld, which as near as I can tell has abandoned human compassion, we should by now have progressed beyond the point of dehumanizing our fellow humans.

Ragnar Deneskjold
"the Infamous Lilly, the Lying Loony Lib"

I've been trying in vain to merge that with the tune of "Lydia the Tattooed Lady." I might have more success if I could sing.

"Since you’re new here I should also tell you there are a few others like her using the following screen names: “King Liberal”, “Robert”, “jetpilot” and “Hal Donohue”; to name a few of the more infamous and obnoxious ones. Just be for-warned and prepared when you encounter one of these nut cases."

Thanks. I've seen King Liberal elsewhere, and I just scrolled across jetpilot over on Phyllis Schlafly's half-acre. At best, these folks keep things lively. At worst, they save us from dull unanimity. Townhall deserves kudos for letting them have their say and allowing even juvenile and off-topic disagreements unfold.

The Great Pissant writes:
Keep packing heat, you GOP fools
And leave the schooling to us liberals. There are plenty of good jobs waiting for someone who knows how to use a gun. Matter of fact, there's a couple of wars out there where we could use your help. Me? I'll continue using my liberal education to enjoy my liberal well-paying job and live in my liberal, safe-as-can-be, community.

Actually, there are more conservatives in teaching than you know. I know, I am one of them, and I am a gun owner.

I suspect the first time your "safe-as-can-be community" has a string of violent crimes, because the criminals find out there are not armed home owners about, you will be crying and wringing your hands about not being able to stop them. As a former Deputy Sheriff, I can assure you that the cops can't be everywhere. Good f*cking luck when it happens.

Posting "Gun Free Zone"?
That is simply a PC term for "Zone of Helpless Victims"

lilly writes:
Lumberjack
Monsters are in the movies; human beings are in real life. A mentally ill person, who by whatever failure of treatment is led to commit a terrible act, is still a human being. Should we not mourn the loss of a life, however twisted? Of course it is terrible when murder is committed, but the life of the murderer is lost as well, whether he dies on the spot or dies slowly afterwards. And I believe there is something in Christianity about forgiving the sinner?

Once upon a time, and in the United States, and not so very long ago, the mentally ill were chained in cells and received no treatment at all. On Sundays nice people went to view mentally ill people as they raged and muttered---like a sideshow, like animals in the zoo. Even in Republicanworld, which as near as I can tell has abandoned human compassion, we should by now have progressed beyond the point of dehumanizing our fellow humans.

lilly: I think the above post proves that you are functionally iliterate. I never posted anything remotely related to what you said.

lilly
you truly are warped. Now you defend a MURDERER! Oh, the poor thing is still human! Oh, woe is he who KILLS a number of students. He is still human. Oh, woe is the little killer! He is just like us!

Lumberjack
You are dealing with a fool who lives by the sheep mentality.
He is sure harm will never happen to him.
It will always be the other guy who's home is invaded.
The other guy's wife who is raped.
The other guy who is tortured to find out where valuables are hidden.

He never considers the other guy also believes it will always be the other guy too!

myopine2's , "Placebo Legislation".
Excellent use of the language and much more accurate than the term "gun control laws". And, just like a placebo sugar pill for a health person, they have the identical effect. The truly well, or law abiding, will get better and obey the law, respectively, while the truly sick and the criminal will will not get well, nor the criminal obey the law.

In the statistics that you site in your post at 1:40 PM, I believe these increase will correlate with emptying of the mental institutions and the reduced admissions due to the closing facilities. Furthermore, Governor Reagan did not sign California's version of the "Community Mental Health Centers Act of 1963 until 1974. One year passed the statistical time that you cite for the increased murder rate.

Respectfully, I don't think it was the "Gun Control Act of 1968" that had any effect, one way or the other. But JFK and LBJ's letting the mentally ill out onto America's streets and not providing supervision for the new cases that are constantly entering society as they leave high school.

The "CMHC Act of '63" was placebo legislation as well.

Shefali
ditto your post! The tiger did the world a favor. Such stupidity should leave the gene pool. It is sad that the tiger gene pool is diminished because of it.

inthemajority
inthemajority wrote @ 1:20PM

"Just because those in academia tend to be Liberal is no reason to be jealous. If you paid more attention in school maybe you'd be Liberal too."

I attended a Liberal University, still considered one of the worlds best, in Cambridge MA. I paid attention well enough to graduate in the top 10% of my class and still recall this quote from one of the few Conservative Profs. “If you’re a Conservative and under 30 you have no heart. If you’re a Liberal and over 30, you have no brain”.

I was under 30 at the time and a Liberal. Fortunately, Ive matured.
And the author of the quote?
Another Conservative: Winston Churchill

I just love it when Libs put their foot in it and get shot down so badly.

Killers choose college.....
...campi because that's where they know they'll be "understood", where they know they will gain the recognition they believe they deserve, and -- the biggy -- guns aren't allowed.

Like the bank robber Willie Sutton said when asked why he robbed banks; "Because that's where the money is".

To repeat a question someone once wrote here at Townhall, "I would like to see a liberal post a sign in their front lawn telling passersby that there were no guns inside". So would I, but so far I haven't seen any takers from the kumbyah kids who pose as adults as they soil our public colleges and our country in general.

Mountain Rose
Your question about why the inmates were allowed to run the asylum is a good one. It's easy to notice that the US took a drastic turn for the worse in the 1960s. Just about every bad statistic skyrocketed -- e.g. violent crime, divorce, illegitimacy, drug abuse, abortion.

This is often blamed on the "Baby Boom" generation of the 60s, and understandably so. They were the ones attacking America's traditions and morality. But I suggest that the WWII "Greatest Generation" is at least equally culpable.

We are the inheritors of the Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman, and British-Democratic traditions, and the defenders of these virtues. It is the responsibility of every parent to transmit these values to their children, and the collective responsibility of each generation to pass the torch to the next. The torch wasn't passed very well to the Baby Boomers.

I suspect a couple of reasons: (1) the decline of religious faith, largely caused by cosmological and evolutionary scientific arguments that called traditional Christianity into question; (2) the hypocrisy of America's ongoing mistreatment of minorities, especially blacks, even after leading the WWII crusade for democracy and human rights; and (3) an understandable feeling on the part of many of the WWII generation that they had endured enough (the Depression and the War), and just wanted to get down to the business of building material prosperity.



How a generation raised in the greatest material prosperity

For Liberals who offer personal insults.
Democrats have such blind lust for power over the lives of others that they prostitute all personal honor by embracing the likes of;
http://americansfortruth.com/issues/the-agenda-glbtq-activi st-groups/national-glbq-activist-groups/national-glbtq-acti vist-groups/nambla/

And this;
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\\Specia lReports\\archive\\200508\\SPE20050825a.html

And this;
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/john-kerry-gained-fame-t hanks-to-phony-soldiers

And this;
http://hollycrud.com/2006/10/nancy-girl-wants-old-gays-with -young.html

And the list is nearly endless!

I think they are getting close to the point of self disgust though because the Communists among them are cowering behind various euphemisms like "Progressive" and "New Left" and "Democratic Socialists of America" and this list is nearly endless also.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy/msg/66ead9217 cb955bc

Democrats are aware Americans who know what Democrats actually represent are repelled from them in disgust and would never vote to give them power. Democrats know they could never win an honest election and therefore always resort to fraud.

Personal fave: "Gentleman" rapists!
Part of my job sometimes involves assisting girls who have been raped/attacked. Over the past decade, I notice a tendency of the SANE team members to consistently refer to the perpetrator as a "gentleman". "How tall was the gentleman?" "What color hair did the gentleman have?" "Did you notice any markings, such as tattoos, on the gentleman?"- IT MAKES ME CRAZY!! I intervened during an interview the last time because I just couldn't take the use of the designation "gentleman" applied again and again to a guy who rammed a vase into a girl's rectum!!

There's always the references that describe events as if a gun, SUV, or other inanimate objects acted independent of a human handler!

This I submit with complete certainty: Criminals look for recepticals for their anger who are least likely to defend themselves. They LOOK for victims, not battles. Ask any predator, they're glad to share the info. My advice? Be prepared for battle, and life will be more peaceful.

myopine2 writes:
Lumberjack
You are dealing with a fool who lives by the sheep mentality.
He is sure harm will never happen to him.
It will always be the other guy who's home is invaded.
The other guy's wife who is raped.
The other guy who is tortured to find out where valuables are hidden.

He never considers the other guy also believes it will always be the other guy too!

It may never happen to me, but that does not mean, I won't be prepared if it does. If the idiot who tries to break into my home gets past my Border Collie-German Shepard mix, and the Siberian Husky, then he gets to me me and Maggie, my Ruger .35 Security Six, and .25 semiauto backup. I do keep them in a safe with a touch combination, about 3 feet from my bedside. I will NOT be the other guy.

LJ7392-Ssgt
A few years back in this area, there was a Drug Dealer/Murderer on trial. The ULTRA-LIBERAL Baltimore Sun was printing BIG chunks of the the cross examination. One exchange with a policeman went:

Attorney: Where did you observe the defendant allegedly selling drugs?

Policeman: It was in The Drug Free Zone at the corner of X and Y (I can’t remember the streets), where all The Drug Dealers are.

CASE CLOSED!

Lily,
A monster in human form is still a monster. And the only proper fate for a monster that attacks innocent human beings is instant death at the hands of anyone who is capable of delivering it.

Paleocon
Re: your post of 2:06 re: the "Infamous Lilly song".

Please post it if you ever put it to words. There’s also a great song honoring
“capt” Robert entitled “The Great Blovaitor” to the tune of “The Great Pretender”

I forgot to mention in addition to others to be ignored like King - MORON - Lib; include Mldoggg.
There’s no end to these nut cases. They’re like a fungus. They keep growing in dark damp smelly places.....LMAO

myopine2
Aka, "Victim Disarmament Zone", Bad Guy Empowerment Zone", etc.

In other words, a hunting preserve set up just for would-be-murderers to play in. But without the sportsmanship demanded of those who hunt game animals.

Mother of 4
Amen to your 2:41 post. Perps are cowards, and the crime rate absolutely decreases when cowards know they will be called out.

I am an avid hiker who carries a large oak stick at all times. Granted, it helps that I'm big and fit (5'11, 170, and strong as an ox), but that stick has been used twice during the past couple of decades; once on a naked man masturbating on the trail a few years back. You should have seen the look on his snarky, ugly face when I gave chase!! He was NOT expecting to be chased and beaten across his nasty back as he fled!! What a RUSH!!

The other was on an unleashed dog that was going to bite. The owner was all self-righteous and huffy at me, but was not going to cross the big lady with the stick!

My daughter knows how to lay an offender out, as do many of the girls I work with. I think Lilly has been kept safe by others and doesn't understand the concept of self-care.

Personal fave: "Gentleman" rapists!
oldsocialworker writes:
Part of my job sometimes involves assisting girls who have been raped/attacked. Over the past decade, I notice a tendency of the SANE team members to consistently refer to the perpetrator as a "gentleman". "How tall was the gentleman?" "What color hair did the gentleman have?" "Did you notice any markings, such as tattoos, on the gentleman?"

This is an excellent (as in "disgusting") example. This is not a case of protecting the presumption of innocense of a particular suspect, which was an excuse I suggested. In this case, there's not a particular suspect. We are talking about the rapist, himself, whoever he be. A definite rapist, unless the interrogator is strongly suggesting to the victim that she was not raped. Continue to intervene, OldSocialWorker!

Mother of 4
Yes, that is the actual meaning of such signs.

The sheep you see bleating here simply want anyone able to defend themselves to become helpless victims like they are so criminals have more sheep to choose from.
They try to increase their own odds for survival by endangering other people.
"It will always be the other guy."

There's always "youths"
used to describe rioting mobs!! "the youths were celebrating (fill in the blank), and violence broke out". As if violence breaks out like acne!! I love these out of control bachelor/wedding parties that digress into street brawls that feature the characters, "guests', "bride to be", "attendants" and "future groom". Such genteel titles to describe poop throwing blue-butted baboons!!!

Lumberjack7392/Georgetwin
Lumberjack:
Siberian Huskey? (great animal). I too am well pre-prepared with my buddy, my pup. He is Sheppard and proud of it.

Georgetwin:
I offen take the pup through those drug free zones around the area. Nobody looks twice. haha

MLdogg
I don't recall signing any social contract that requires me to bare my neck to any psycho who wants to slash it.

I can't imagine any such contract being the foundation of a great country.

Nor could I be socieopathic or anti-social when there is probably more than a 50% chance that should I ever have to use my gun, it will be to SAVE the LIFE of somebody else on the verge of being a victim of a real socieopath.

"You conservatives just can't follow the law."

What part about bearing arms, which is universally understood to mean, well, bearing them, not being infringed is difficult for you to understand? Last time I checked, the Bill of Rights was the ultimate law of our land.

Even if a court never seems to get around to declaring everying contrary to the Bill of Rights unconstitutional does not negate my ability to act and think as an individual citizen.


Question for Lilly
Lilly,

let me give you a situational question. You wake up in the middle of the night, hear noises, and realize that an intruder is in your house. It turns out you recognize the intruder as a mentally ill man from your neighborhood. You can tell that from his actions, he intends to do violence, maybe worse, toward you and others in the house.

What do you do to handle the situation?

SSGT writes:
Lumberjack7392/Georgetwin
Lumberjack:
Siberian Huskey? (great animal). I too am well pre-prepared with my buddy, my pup. He is Sheppard and proud of it.

Steel, the Siberian isa great dog. Normally he is the most laid back animal in he house, but if someone invads his space that he does not know watch. As far as my Bordr Collie German Shepard mix, I tell people that if hey cross him they will get very Lucky, since that's his name. i told some punk kids on the block who had been vandalizing my Christmas decorations, and plants that. After that they never bothered the yard again.

Personal fave: "Gentleman" rapists!
oldsocialworker writes:
Part of my job sometimes involves assisting girls who have been raped/attacked. Over the past decade, I notice a tendency of the SANE team members to consistently refer to the perpetrator as a "gentleman". "How tall was the gentleman?" "What color hair did the gentleman have?" "Did you notice any markings, such as tattoos, on the gentleman?"

This is an excellent (as in "disgusting") example. This is not a case of protecting the presumption of innocense of a particular suspect, which was an excuse I suggested. In this case, there's not a particular suspect. We are talking about the rapist, himself, whoever he be. A definite rapist, unless the interrogator is strongly suggesting to the victim that she was not raped. Continue to intervene, OldSocialWorker!

Followup question to Lilly
Forget the added details to my last question, like the fact that the intruder is mentally ill.

Let's just simplify it to be that there is an intruder in your house, and it appears that he plans to cause you harm.

What do you do?

Bargain? Call the police? Fight back? Hide? What do you do?

Great Patriot:
You describe your "liberal" neighborhood as being "safe as can be." That will last only until the predators who roam the streets tumble to the notion that everyone out your way is unarmed. Are you so sure about your safety that you'd be willing to post a sign on your front door, reading in letters large enough to be legible from the curb, "GUN FREE HOUSEHOLD" ?

I rather doubt it. More likely, you are willing to pay someone else to look out for your well being, and you're foolish enough to believe that police can do that.

JFP writes "Everyone is always being reminded of Kent State." You exaggerate. Even the writers who harp endlessly on Ruby Ridge and Waco neglect to mention it. And the crucial difference between the Madison killing you mention and the Kent State massacre is that the latter was done by agents of the government, while the former was done by people generally recognized as criminals.

Hot Break-ins
A rather interesting stat is Hot Break-ins. Comparing Canada, England and the U.S.

Hot Break-ins are when the criminals enter the house while the occupants are there. Increasing the chances of violent assaults, rapes, manslaughter, murder etc...

In the U.S. it is 15% of all break-ins. In Canada and England it is about 50% of all break-ins.

Why such a significantly higher rate you may ask? The houses in England and Canada are almost all "GUN FREE ZONES" and the criminals know it.

"GUN FREE ZONES" work as well in Canada and England as they do here in the U.S. They are an open invitation for criminals.

Why not compassion for the shooter?
This young man was obviously troubled. He's probably been troubled for a long time. Doesn't anyone care that he might have been a victim of bullying in school? Maybe he was scorned by the jocks and the cheerleaders in junior high and high school? Is there no compassion for him?

Where is Prager's vaunted sense of "justice"? Does his sympathy only extend to those who were shot, while ignoring the obvious emotional pain of the shooter?

Are there really people who think justice would have been served if some gun-toting conservative had shot this troubled soul without giving him a chance to get some counselling?

Let's face it; "compassionate conservatism" is an oxymoron.

SSGT
I see you scared off "PARROT BOY" tr this morning.

I thought I heard a "SQUAWCK" when you plucked his feather.

Tr wrote:
"Poly Want a Cracker, SQUAWCK!!!!!"

Lilly
The insane were not chained in cells. There was a lot of very humane treatment going back to revolutionary war times. You are wrong. Read Benjamin Rush.

You are out of line judging how others should feel about murders. If you weep, great, and if others dance, good for them. It is none of your business to judge.

Conservatives give significantly more to compassionate causes than liberals. That is a fact; you are totally wrong to imagine liberals are compassionate. Their behavior says otherwise. They wnat to be compassionate with MY money, not their own. They are wrong, and so are you.

Off topic
New Parody, my blog. Back in action!

left is right-get used to it writes:
Why not compassion for the shooter?
This young man was obviously troubled. He's probably been troubled for a long time. Doesn't anyone care that he might have been a victim of bullying in school? Maybe he was scorned by the jocks and the cheerleaders in junior high and high school? Is there no compassion for him?

Where is Prager's vaunted sense of "justice"? Does his sympathy only extend to those who were shot, while ignoring the obvious emotional pain of the shooter?

Are there really people who think justice would have been served if some gun-toting conservative had shot this troubled soul without giving him a chance to get some counselling?

Let's face it; "compassionate conservatism" is an oxymoron.

Let's face it. This post is the product of a moron.

Knight Who Said NI
Do you think those who fear guns in the hands of honest men have noticed the higher frequency of home invasion is in areas where laws hamper gun owners?

Do you think they understand a home invader is only certain he has everything of value in a home after he has tortured someone beyond their endurance?

Do you think they are aware they could be next?

Knight who said NI
Good point re: “Hot Break ins”, aka (Home Invasions), in the UK. I’m all too familiar with this, as I was based in Stanstead Airport near London, where I worked as an airline pilot after the ban on hand guns took effect. Home invasions sky rocketed after the ban. It happened to one of my neighbors. But Im proud to say my “criminal” history of lawlessness includes my year working in the UK where I also carried a gun without a permit and in defiance of the 1996 hand gun ban. Fortunately for would-be home invaders and myself, I never had to defend my home, which despite the law, was my RIGHT to do. As you may know, it’s illegal to defend yourself with any sort of weapon, if physically attacked in the UK. You MUST rely on police to defend you. In view of such idiotic laws, no one with any brains should obey them. Some laws MUST be defied. Only people like King –MORON – Lib who march in lock step with other mindless Libs. blindly follow them. But there’s a saying: “A conservative is a former Liberal who’s been mugged”. So perhaps one of these Morons will be “converted”..... the hard way. LOL

What if the Shooter was a Muslum
You know if the Shooter was a Muslum that would be the very last thing you would ever hear about him. They would blame everything and everyone but his Religion. But his Religion was; Catholic or Baptist this would be the Headline In BOLD Headline.
SHOOTER WAS CATHOLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or
SHOOTER WAS BAPTIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But on the point of counting the Murders among the Dead. The first time I saw this was during the Reporting of 9/11. In 99% of the reports you had the names of the Slime Muslums that Killed 3000+ Americans. And the Limp Wrist Liberals want to include the Slime Ball Muslums Names on the 9/11 Memorals.

Compassion for the Killer? ROFLOL!
Compassion for the killer? That's absurd!

He's the one who made the decision that someone was going to die that day. In choosing to kill the innocent he placed himself outside the bounds of humanity and outside the bounds of compassion.

If he wanted compassion there are many places he might have found it. But he didn't want compassion he wanted innocent blood.

And its just too bad that someone in that classroom wasn't prepared to give him .45 reasons to regret that choice.

My compassion is reserved entirely for the victims.

Dennis Prager

Why wasn't the headline "5 killed at NIU"? It is nothing less than moronic that the media routinely lump murderers and their victims in the same tally.

[Is this question relevant to anything? Do "liberal media" and "conservative media" do it differently? Well, no. So it's just a pointless question to somehow make the media guilty of something.]

One can only assume that this mode of reporting murders is part of the larger movement toward non-judgmentalism and egalitarianism.

[Again, show me how the rightwing media does this differently. The rightwing press -- the Washington Times, NY Post, WSJ mindlessly imitating their leftwing betters?]


What's so bad about: b) making guns much harder to obtain? Oh, you mean saving a few lives of innocent school children is not worth inconveniencing gunnuts who need their fix right now?



But if would-be murderers know that anywhere... . [Since they all end up killing themselves, why does anyone think that the possibility that someone else might kill them will deter them? How much more dumb can we make this argument?]


Of course, there is virtually no chance that the uniformly left-thinking individuals who run our universities will ever consider this option.

[Only leftwingers run all of our universities? Another totally stupid and pointless falsehood.]

If a murderer used a knife to murder five students, no news headlines would read, "Knifeman Kills Five."

[Why the hell not? That would truly be news! Why? Because it has never happened and is unlikely to ever happen.]

Off topic
This is off topic, but I couldn't help but notice throughout the primaries, the TV commentators of ALL networks, including Fox, use the word "conservative" over and over and over again. Which candidate is more conservative? How the candidates will get the conservative vote? On and on. But, if you look for the word "liberal", you will not hear it a single time. They don't even use the word "progressive". In short, they just ignore anything that is liberal, just like they are igoring anything that is secular.

Lumberjack73924687188912 or whatever
I am NOT a moron! I am a progressive! Learn it, love it, live it!!

Lumberjack7392 4:15pm
"Let's face it. This post is the product of a moron."

Coming from work and reading this thread (and especially the post refered to by Lumberjack7392), I thought I had crossed thru the "Looking Glass" or somehow got transported to Bizarro(sp?) World.

Thank you "Lumberjack7392" for showing me it was only the Liberal Trolls and other assorted nuts; and that I was still in the "real" world.

left is right
"I am NOT a moron! I am a progressive!"

You may not be a moron, but that is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

you're a wise one, Dennis
It has also bothered me that the killers have been lumped in with the number of victims. What kind of crazy is that!

About allowing some teachers and students to carry guns... I am not totally comfortable with this option. But I am less comfortable with having our student population as sitting ducks! I joked about Kennesaw, Georgia enacting a law requiring all it's residents to own guns... didn't want to own owe. This happened a LONG time ago and was a reaction to another municipality outlawing gun ownership. Well, the crime rate in Kennesaw was significantly lower than any other jurisdiction in metro Atlanta. Apparently criminals are deterred by the thought that they might face an armed vicitim. And, if they are not deterred, at least the vicitim stands a chance at self defense. Just thinking out loud here....

Some universities should try allowing licensed gun owners to carry. There are no perfect options, only reasonable ones.

For "Curtal Friar"...
Please accept this question in the manner which I ask it (I mean no disrespect!); but did you love the "The Adventures of Robin Hood" (1939, Errol Flynn) as a youngster?

If I am not mistaken, Friar Tuck was called a "Curtal Friar" in that movie.

Bethelah
"Some universities should try allowing licensed gun owners to carry. There are no perfect options, only reasonable ones."

You would be surprised, but in light of the shootings at VA Tech and NIU, two major massacres in less than a year, some students and professors are packing heat already. These people carry guns, knowing damn well that it is against the law. However, they believe it is better to be tried by twelve than to be carried by six.

Gambler
Your question about why Conservatives proudly wear the title and Liberals hide from it is simple. Liberalism has been conclusively proven to be a failure. Look at the Soviet Union, Cuba, and the decline of the liberal Western European countries.

Would you want to be associated with this? It is like wearing a New England Patriots tee shirt.

shiksa
That last post was for you. I don't know how the name Bethelah got there.

"Gunman" vs. "Murderer"
I see others have addressed the "tiger" issue -- I agree, those punks pretty much asked for it. We don't have sympathy for people stupid enough to play on the highway then get run over by a Mack Truck; why should we have sympathy for people who taunt dangerous animals then get mauled by said animal?

But I haven't seen this addressed: "Gunman" vs. "Murderer".

I think that's in line with the word "alleged" being bandied about everywhere. That is, he's not really a "murderer" until proven such in a court of law. Until such time, he's only been "alleged" to be a murderer.

It doesn't matter if he did the deed on national television in front of a gadzillion witnesses. He has to stand trial.

How you find him guilty if he's already committed suicide is a completely different issue.

But my point is simply that calling him a "gunman" is generally incontestable. But you generally can't call him a "murderer" unless he's been found guilty by a jury.

Albee
Sure I can, watch.

He was a murderer.

I am not a lawyer, and dead murderers can't sue for defamation.

I missed a point
I missed the point where Prager finds my point "unpersuasive." I saw it on a re-reading.

Too bad.

I think my point stands. That people were killed is incontestable. That they were murdered requires a legal charge of homicide. That the killer is a murderer requires he be found guilty by a jury of his peers.

gretske
"Would you want to be associated with this? It is like wearing a New England Patriots tee shirt."

You mean the one says "The Third Best 18-1 Team in NFL History".

gretske - Ha Ha
That was so funny I almost forgot to laugh.

"dead murderers can't sue for defamation."

Families of dead murderers still can.