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Tuesday, November 06, 2007
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Dear Senator Dodd: Education Is Not the Answer to Every Problem
by Dennis Prager
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At the Democrats' presidential debate last week, the candidates were asked to comment on issues pertaining to education. This was Connecticut Sen. Chris Dodd's response:

"I've been asked the question over the years, 'What's the single most important issue?' I always say education because it is the answer to every other problem we confront as a people here."

Needless to say, no other candidate took issue with Sen. Dodd, and it is likely that most senators, all the Democrats and many Republicans, would agree with the sentiment.

But the sentiment is not only wrong, it is destructive.

There are, of course, links between education and professional success, between education and the ability to read and write. And obviously we need well-educated people in order to be able to compete with other countries. But for at least the few generations in the Western world there has been no link between higher education and human decency.

Period.

This is one of the many myths believed by the educated in Western society (people are born good is another). But there is not a shred of evidence to support it.

In fact, the record of the last hundred years -- if it argues for any link between higher education and goodness -- argues for an inverse link. Put simply, the higher educated in Western society have been more likely to have awful moral values and more likely to support massive cruelty than the less well educated.

The two greatest evils of the 20th century -- fascism and communism -- were often headed by well-educated individuals. And communism was supported in the West almost exclusively by intellectuals. You almost had to be an intellectual in order to support the mass murderers Lenin, Stalin and Mao.

Ask any well-educated person to identify the educational backgrounds of the Nazi mass murderers who made up the einsatzgruppen, the mobile killing units that massacred Jews and anti-Nazi dissidents before the gas chambers were invented. It is a safe bet that most would respond that the vast majority of einsatzgruppen members were poorly educated. In fact, however, of the four einsatzgruppen sent into Russia, for example, "Three of the four commanders held a doctorate, whilst one was a double Ph.D." (HolocaustResearchProject.org). These Nazi mass murderers "included many high-ranking officers, intellectuals and lawyers. Otto Ohlendorf, who commanded Einsatzgruppe D, had earned degrees from three universities and achieved a doctorate in jurisprudence" ("The Einsatzgruppen Reports," Holocaust Library, 1989).

According to Professor Michael Mann -- whose book, "Fascists," published by Cambridge University Press in 2004, was declared by the American Historical Review to be "by far the best comparative study of interwar fascisms" -- "all fascist movements during the interwar period appealed disproportionately to the well educated, 'to students in high schools and universities and to the most highly educated middle-class strata.'"

To the extent that many people graduate Western universities with good values, it is despite, rarely because of, their university education.

Yet, all the evidence of higher education's vast moral failure notwithstanding, most liberals deny the link between immoral values and higher education and continue to perpetuate the myth of education as the solution to society's problems.

They do so for a number of reasons.

First, the university is to the secular liberal what the church is to a religious Christian or a yeshiva (Talmudic academy) is to a religious Jew -- a place of holiness and the epicenter of his values.

Second, it is through control of higher education (and the media) that liberal and leftist values are most effectively communicated to the next generation. Even the media have somewhat more ideological diversity than Western universities, which almost exclusively convey a leftist worldview.

Third, a secular liberal education is the best antidote to the Judeo-Christian value system that the left most fears.

And there is a fourth reason why a Democratic senator, in particular, would say that education is the "the answer to all other problems." Teachers unions and the National Education Association provide major political and financial support to the Democratic Party.

There is, of course, a form of education that can indeed solve most of society's problems: moral education. That would consist of teaching young people what is good and what is bad, how to develop personal integrity and providing them with the life stories of the best individuals in history.

But little or none of that is now done in schools. "Good" and "bad" are terms that are rarely used, and usually derided as "Manichaean." Personal integrity is essentially defined as taking liberal positions on social issues such as global warming, same-sex marriage and income redistribution. And the best Americans -- those who laid the foundations of our liberty -- have generally been vilified as slave owners and racists.

So, Sen. Dodd, education as it presently exists, is not the answer to all of society's problems. Indeed, it is at least as often the source of many of them.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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To Cave Bear
Cave Bear writes, "Prager was dead on in his essay, and he is by no means the first to notice that many of the Nazi leadership were educated people."

Only two of the high Nazi leadership had college degrees Joseph Goebbels, minister of propaganda and Albert Speer, minister of armaments. The rest were mainly thugs. Many of the intelligentsia, Jewish or others in opposition to Hitler, in Germany left or were placed in concentration camps or death camps. Certainly, there highly educated Nazis. Now what accounts for the evil that was part of the Japanese attempt to secure Asia for Asians? To my knowledge, there was no need for concentration camps for dissenters.

Good Article Mr. Prager...

It reminds me of the "Feel-good Scholarship" monies used to send underprivlidged kids to the best schools. Only to later find, these "Underprivlidged kids" are selling drugs and raping co-eds.

Every time a co-ed gets raped or murdered by another student on a Michigan campus... The Perp is almost always someone attending with a "feel-good" scholarship.



Educadation
It is also worth noting that attorneys are a highly educated group, with four years of undergraduate and usually three more of law school.

However, almost regardless of your political position, attorneys are not regarded as a force for good in society. (Obvioulsy, there are many decent attorneys. But the perception of the profession, as a whole as, as a group that is more concerned about winning, rather than "doing good," is not inaccurate.)

Cure-All?
Dear Dennis: The idea that education (however it's defined) is an automatic cure-allfor society's troubles likely has its base in the inherent arrogance of liberals. After all, it worked for them, didn't it?!

Perhaps
Dennis may be right on many of his points. There is no guarantee that a formal education will promote any better moral good in people.

However,I do know is that I have never filled out a job application and been asked, "Where did you get your moral education?"

In other words, a formal education may or may not solve all the problems, but atleast it gives one the opportunity to satisfy those needs which are determined to be absolutes. Needs such as food, clothing, and shelter come to mind.

That's probably what Dodd had in mind when he answered the question as opposed to the broader, philosophical argument that denis raises.

Attack on Homeschoolers Unwarrented
There is assumption that most homeschooling familes are conservative and less educated. That is not true. Homeschooling families encompass the political, religious, educational, and socio-economic gamut that is America. From my involvement in the homeschooling community, I have seen first hand that the education level of the parent is not the determining factor of whether or not a child recieves a quality education. The determining factor is the commitment level of the parent. If the commitment is in place, the parent will find tutors, computer programs,
homeschooling co-ops, whatever it takes to provide the child with a quality education.

From my experience, one of the main reasons cited for leaving the public school system is the "one size fits all" mentality that pervades the system. This is especially true for parents who have children with learning disabilities, but the children do not qualify for Special Ed. Ever wonder where these parents/students go? Many homeschooling families have come to homeschooling by default not by choice. They were left little choice when the traditional school system offered little or no assistance. A second reason cited is the antagonism toward teaching to a test. Homeschooling parents do not discount the need for some accountability, but they do not believe art, music, and in some cases science and social studies should be put on the back burner to focus on skills that can be tested on a paper/pencil test. They understand that in a global, increasingly technology based environment just focusing on the three R's is lacking in common sense.

My perception is the reason the NEA and their ilk are so anti-homeschooling is that each homeschooling success story punches a hole in their monopoly on the system.


True Education
religiouslib writes: Tuesday, November, 06, 2007 12:22 PM
wait a minute
first prager gives us this statement

"In fact, the record of the last hundred years -- if it argues for any link between higher education and goodness -- argues for an inverse link. Put simply, the higher educated in Western society have been more likely to have awful moral values and more likely to support massive cruelty than the less well educated."

Rlib comments:

"how does studying engineering make you less moral.
how does studying computers make you less moral.

and so forth and so on.

this is an argument built on emotional rhetoric but that is typical of some conservative thinkers.

facts and logic scare them."
******
Tenore2 Replies

In 1832, a young man, running for his first public office said,
"That every man may receive at least, a moderate education, and thereby be enabled to read the HISTORIES of his own and other countries, by which he may duly appreciate the value of our free institutions, appears to be an object of vital importance, even on this account alone, to say nothing of the advantages and satisfaction to be derived from ALL being able to read the SCRIPTURES and other works, both of a RELIGIOUS and MORAL nature, for themselves."

I contend, RELIB, that if your study is confined to that which man can build and comprehend, there is a serious potential to believe that MAN is the final authority, both scientifically and morally.

The role of the Supreme is forgotten or ignored.

Man may be able to build a powerful computer or build a mighty bridge, but man is powerless to create a universe, a world or a human being.

That is the measure of true education and knowledge.

The young man was, FYI, Abraham Lincoln; a self taught but well educated man. You may have heard of him?

gunnysez
it is sad that you actually call for the murder of millions of americans who disagree with your political point of view.

see this is a democracy and sometimes you get what you want out of government and sometimes the other side does.

the conservatives controlled the congress for 12 years and the presidency for the last 7. so whats the problem?
you had your turn.

you seem to not like america and its form of government.


Close, but not quite
I won't speak to Prager's communism example, but I will take issue to his thoughts about Nazism.

Germany's problems with radicalism during the first half of the 20th century was indeed caused by education, but not in the way that Prager thinks. Even before the birth of the German Empire in the 19th Century, too many Germans were becoming highly educated. Because the German economy could not come close to employing the huge number of university-trained professionals, resentment festered. History shows what happens when large numbers of the educated can't find work: Radicalism.

Formal education is not the end-all
be-all for this country. Schools are intended to teach us what we need to succeed in the current world of business. As for character and morality, this is what the home environment, churches, and social groups like Boy Scouts and The YMCA are intended to accomplish.

You will notice that recently, wholesome social groups are now the targets of liberalism. If they can't conform with the liberal views about homosexuality, abortion, and other perversions of decency, the federal government will not support their efforts to educate our youth in decency and love of life.






Fight4right: 1:25 am has the best
take on all of the opinions I've read today. I have been writing op-eds to my city newspaper for years, (I am often published) that our liberal educators are going to destroy this country from within. That is their goal, that has always been their goal. I am screaming at the top of my lungs---we are at war against liberalism.

Only the alert and aware will listen. The contented fools think I'm the nut case. For your information, the liberals have incrementally been turning up the heat of the water for fifty years. They are infinitely patient and never give up. You unconcerned silent majority are the frogs. The water has almost reached the boiling point and you are so used to the water now that the next time they crank up the heat in 2008, it will be too late to jump out of the pot.

This country is going to go liberal after this election and the only way real Americans are going to be able to re-take our country is through a physical revolution in the streets.

Barring that, our lives will be orchestrated by big government ala Soviet Union. You don't think this can happen in America? It already has! We've destroyed America by having the ability to vote ourselves unlimited social benefits that we don't have to earn. Our collapse is not a matter of if... it's a matter of how soon.

Lack of reading comprehension skills
It seems that a lot of the usual suspects around here (lilly, robert, etc, ad nauseam) still can't read.

Prager was dead on in his essay, and he is by no means the first to notice that many of the Nazi leadership were educated people. Indeed, I have seen many documentaries and articles on this, and it is as if many historians can't/won't grasp the fact that just because someone is well-educated that they are above horrendous acts.

Indeed, he is also correct that it has always been among the "intelligensia" that the worst tyrants in recent history (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho, etc) have found their most ardent supporters.

That our usual suspects would not be able to see this, and instead throw out the usual irrelevancies about home schooling, "waterboarding", etc is no surprise. Sad, yes. A surprise, no.

Good, bad and truth…

‘There is, of course, a form of education that can indeed solve most of society's problems: moral education. That would consist of teaching young people what is good and what is bad, how to develop personal integrity and providing them with the life stories of the best individuals in history.’ –Dennis Prager


Mr. Prager, you have committed the same error that you accuse Mr. Dodd. You think education in morals will produce moral people. We are back again to the words of Christ to Nicodemus, ‘Are you [a] teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?’ [John 3:10] We believe that Christ was referring to the New Covenant as described in Ezekiel 36; a passage that Nicodemus should have known and understood.

‘I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.’ [Ezekiel 36:25-27]

No amount of education can take the place of the work of the Spirit in regeneration. What you have done is illustrate the failure of autonomous man in education in the last 100 years. His goal is to exchange the wisdom of God for the wisdom of man. No amount of failure will deter him.

Will we listen to the Bible? ‘The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord.’ The very beginning of knowledge is a reverence for the Most High and His revealed Word. Having rejected the wisdom of God, the wisdom of man has finally come to acknowledge that there is no truth. In this the moral relativists have come to the truth. If the Scriptures are not truth, then there is no truth.

better path?
Dennis is right again.
One thing he said, at the end of his piece: (And the best Americans -- those who laid the foundations of our liberty -- have generally been vilified as slave owners and racists.)
I have heard liberals make that statement.
So if not our founding fathers foundation to stand on, just what do these cynics think is a better path?

Fuzzy writes: 06, 2007 4:18 PM


Get this
Thousands of newly unemployed autoworkers here in Michigan - Democrat Governor's solution -

Education.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

The NEA and other labor unions love this solution because it keeps labor off the market for years.

religiouslib writes: 06, 2007 1:56 PM

teaching ideology???
simply a conservative myth

what ideology is taught in math.
what ideology is taught in physics
what ideology is taught in studying shakespeare.
what ideology is taught in art history.
what ideology is taught in p.e.
what ideology is taught in grammar.
what ideology is tought in the SAT prep class.

the school board picks the curriculum. if there is a problem it is with the elected members of the community.

DESKJOCKEY WRTIES

The problem is the skul board is beyond the voters. If the party that hands out all the goodies for votes wants a certain skul board the people will co-operate to get their other goodies. This is most effective with district voting. And the book companies pay off the proper folks to get books into the system. The Mike Moses entourage in TX is an example.

Well here is one for environmentalism.

A problem taken from a new 4th-grade math textbook called Quest 2000 states: "Mindy read that a typical goldfish lives for six years. Mindy has a goldfish six years old. Should Mindy continue to buy goldfish? Explain your thinking."

Some others, “50% of U.S. voters are Republican and 50% are Democrat. If all Republicans have an IQ of 80 and all Democrats have an IQ of 120, what is the average IQ of voters.”

“If it costs 5 billion pounds a year to maintain Britain's nuclear defences and 75 pounds a year to feed a starving African child, how many African children can be saved from starvation if the Ministry of Defence abandoned nuclear weapons?"

Of course ideology is taught in all the sciences and needs no pretense as being part of the course. The teacher merely goes into a 10-20 minute tirade on Bush or whatever. I had a physics teacher in high skul (conservative) 45 years ago that was fired because on occasion he would go into a conservative tirade and Ms. Barber’s libtard parents demanded he be fired.

Why not just get some text books on math or sciences to see the libtard junk.

One other thing
Liberals seem to have a blindness between two concepts: Teaching and training. You train a dog to repeat actions by rote for a reward. You train manual workers to accomplish specific discrete tasks. You teach people to think.

Education Is The Problem
But I would respectfully point out that Senator Dodd was right.
"I've been asked the question over the years, 'What's the single most important issue?' I always say education because it is the answer to every other problem we confront as a people here."
And it is for the some of the reasons that Dennis states. I disagree that "But the sentiment is not only wrong, it is destructive.". I agree with the statement that "......there has been no link between highter education and human decency." However, if you were to repair the history books, return teaching from the Bible, teach civics, duty, honor, country starting in kindergarten through 12th grade it would be an awesome start to correcting a lot of the societal ills. If we reemplemented discipline in the schools and made parents liable and involved in the education of their children it would help. Teaching our children to respect authority, their elders, civic and national pride while examining the wrongs honestly would help.
Second step would be to remove the immoral subjects being taught in the Universities and to examine all of the classes to ensure our children are being taught how to think and not being indoctrinated by someone's personal agenda.

Yes, fixing the education system in that context will, a couple of generations restore what has been lost in the last couple of generations.
Dennis, I think you got hung up on the word "higher".

Respectfully,
Dennis Laman
Chickamauga, GA



This is incomplete
This is nothing new in the world. Universities have always been hotbeds of rebellion. Most bloody revolts have started on their campuses.

Proper education teaches you to challenge conventional thinking. It is useful in that regard. In the old systems, the teachers were successful practicioners of the skills. Writers taught writing, doctors medicine, etc. Unfortunately, the new and different thing in the educational world is that we no longer teach challenging ideas. We teach going along with the folks who know better - the teachers.

Now, we have students who know how to parrot and teachers who both know everything but have no experience in the real world. The worst of both worlds.

As for the true subject of this column, it is a well known adage that knowledge and intelligence do not impart wisdom. The wise fool and the stupid genius are well known tropes. And an earlier poster was correct in that much of what is called for as "education" is indoctrination.

An example would be a student brings a gun to school. The liberals say "he should be taught it is wrong." If he were being taught, he would discuss the positives and negatives and be allowed to obtain his own informed opinion. In indoctrination, he will be instructed in the words and opinions that he must hold to be acceptable to the powers that be.

re
Lilly, Do you really believe intolerance is propagated exclusively by conservatives? While there is no doubt that there are many outspoken on the right that savage liberal ideas and sometimes individuals, I see just as much of it coming from the left. Be it from Hollywood or Universities. Ugly and distorted stereo types of conservatives are portrayed routinely on TV, in movies and novels. I read accounts all the time of conservative speakers being harassed and threatened when they attempt to speak as invited guests at universities. What frustrates me is this type of intolerance seems to be ignored by people like you on the left. There is plenty of valid criticism for BOTH sides on this point.

DeskJockey
Thanks for the quote. It should be clear why a movement that has that attitude towards education will chase every serious academic away.

RE: Lilly and Education / Tolerance
Lilly, Do you really believe intolerance is propagated exclusively by conservatives? While there is no doubt that there are many outspoken on the right that savage liberal ideas and sometimes individuals, I see just as much of it coming from the left. Be it from Hollywood or Universities. Ugly and distorted stereo types of conservatives are portrayed routinely on TV, in movies and novels. I read accounts all the time of conservative speakers being harassed and threatened when they attempt to speak as invited guests at universities. What frustrates me is this type of intolerance seems to be ignored by people like you on the left. There is plenty of valid criticism for BOTH sides on this point.

Education?
Education today vs. moral character?

Great Britain really educated their young at one time. They were taught Latin,Greek, th great philosphers,etc. They were also imbued with great moral character.
These are the same people who ruled the world for one long time.

Plrsde tell me how the emancipated countries in Africa and the Carribean have worked out since their "educated"leaders have taken over?

religiouslib writes: 06, 2007 1:36 PM

prager smarter then jefferson??

"Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government"

He embraced education as the equalizer for all children. Goals and objectives of elementary education as written and presented by Jefferson in the "Rockfish Gap Report of 1818 (D: p, 120): - To give every citizen information he needs for the transaction of his own business - To enable him to calculate for himself, express and preserve his own ideas, contracts and accounts in writing. - To improve by reading, his morals and faculties. - To understand his duties to his neighbors and country, and to discharge with competence the functions confided to him by either. - To know his rights; to exercise with order and justice those he retains; to choose with discretion the fiduciary of those delegates; and to notice their conduct with diligence, with candor, and judgment. - And, in general, to observe with intelligence and faithfulness all the social relations under which he shall be placed.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

I don’t think that quote is from Jefferson. It was merely transcribed by Jefferson as writer of the Commission’s final report to fix the U of VA.

I am noticing a disconnect. Conservatives seem to be saying education is fine, home schooling and vouchers fine (I’m against however), but giver-ment indoctrination camps not fine.

Libtards demand they must be able to tax the people for their education bureaucracy to indoctrinate little Marxist.

Involvement of the Feds in education was rejected by the founders and therefore not enumerated because they knew full well what that led to.

Deskjockey
Somehow I get the feeling that Lilly might be "teaching" school somewhere.

everyonesfacts writes: 06, 2007 1:10 PM

there is no correlation between education and virtue.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

True, but if you educate a criminal you get a smarter criminal.

And neither is lying us into another war
One has only to check out what Ron Paul is up to and you see what I mean.

lilly writes: 06, 2007 12:00 PM


if you look at homeschooling, where many defenders want no state standards or requirements. No educational background requirement for the homeschooling parent. No state-imposed curriculum. No accountability. No testing. No record-keeping. This sounds about as "do your own thing" as possible.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

You seem to have a NEA type hostility for people not tolerating your indoctrination k-12 camps. Would not a man that can think independently, although he can’t write, be more valued than an idiot who can write beautifully but reads like and idiot and is superintendent of the skul (sic)?

lilly writes:

About a month ago on a townhall thread re homeschooling I commented that a pro-parent choice webiste (PABBIS, Parents Against Bad Books in Schools) showed a lot of grammatical errors. In particular, I pointed to the disagreement of pronouns and their antecedent nouns, and gave examples. A homeschooling parent immediately responded with this post: "Who made up this rule anyway, and why should I follow it?".

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

One of the people on our board of education, with a masters in education, and a teacher wrote me a letter that a preschooler could write better. In this case she is a moronic libtard also.

What I find interesting is that these home schooled kids seem to be outperforming the giver-ment indoctrinated kids, even though the parents may never graduated high skul themselves.

To fuzzy
Fuzzy writes, "Thousands of newly unemployed autoworkers here in Michigan - Democrat Governor's solution - Education."

Do you have technical schools in Michigan? Of course, the non-unionized Southern States are where the automakers are moving.

South Carolina
South Carolina has an excellent system of technical schools.............not everyone has to go off to college.

Then again
soon everything will rankle me.

Get this
Thousands of newly unemployed autoworkers here in Michigan - Democrat Governor's solution -

Education.

Is that what anyone wants when they need a job. No. However, that is the typical liberal feel good "non-solution" to everything.

Unless you are going into science, or doctorate field - college isn't training you to succeed in the workforce. You become well rounded enough to be unproductive.

Motivation, willingness, desire, and a good attitude will get better results.

Lets face cold hard facts - Education in any one field does not equal education sufficient to tackle problems in any other field. In fact, it could get in the way.

Sure, I like to learn and I admire teachers, professors, etc. Its the students with no real life experience spending daddy's money on an education that doesn't get them ready for life that rankles me.



Nazi leadership
Hitler did not have a college education. In fact the only two high ranking Nazis that held college degrees were Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda and Albert Speer, Hitler's architect and armaments minister. Can there be well-educated evil people, certainly. Is education the cure all for all that ails society, certainly not. Germany and Japan in WWII had highly educated societies that worshiped their leaders.

The Japanese in my opinion committed more war crimes than the Germans. The unique thing about the Nazis was that they instituted the "Final Solution" in January 1942. However, I have to wonder if the Japanese did not kill more Chinese than the Germans killed Jews.

lilly writes:
he and his wife were attending law school. He called a plumber who rejected the offered job, saying, "I don't take small jobs. I don't need to fix your toilet---I made $70,000 last year" (a lot at the time). My friend and his wife proceeded to graduate from law school. The woman was made a judge at quite a young age and served on the Florida bench for thirty years. The man went into corporate law and made millions and millions. I suppose that plumber eventually died still fixing toilets---or refusing to do so.

Personally, I think that the plumber provided a more valuable service than the lawyers ever did.

The indoctrination is so bad
that I see huge numbers of people who never even intend to be in the workforce paying thousands to attend the college of their choice. They just think they are supposed to get educated.

That's the way the debt starts. No intent to USE the education, but thank you very much for PAYING for it.

Now go & solve the world's problems from your couch.

lilly writes: 06, 2007 10:46 AM
he and his wife were attending law school. He called a plumber who rejected the offered job, saying, "I don't take small jobs. I don't need to fix your toilet---I made $70,000 last year" (a lot at the time). My friend and his wife proceeded to graduate from law school. The woman was made a judge at quite a young age and served on the Florida bench for thirty years. The man went into corporate law and made millions and millions. I suppose that plumber eventually died still fixing toilets---or refusing to do so.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

I love your stories and appreciate you taking valuable time out from your work load at MoveOn.org. I happened to know that plumber and the lawyers. The plumber wanted $100 and the lawyer asked how long it would take and the plumber said 30 min. The lawyer said, that is $200/hr and I’m starting in law practice then end of this semester and I won’t even make $40/hr (60's).

The plumber said, sir when I practiced law I couldn’t make this much either. The plumber went on to start a company called Kohler Co. and the plumber’s family is now worth $1B. He hires that poor lawyer and pays his firm a couple mill a year more out of sympathy than need. lol

Religiouslib
I never STATED anything like that! I ASKED a series of rhetorical questions? Rhetorical Questions are a byproduct of facts and logic. All schools may not encourage such things, BUT EVEN ONE IS TOO MANY! Where are the statements from the NEA and various teachers unions DENOUNCING such behavior? The recent example of a 25 year-old woman in Nebraska who ran off with a 13 year-old illegal alien male student of hers. All The MSM talked about was since he was an illegal, he wouldn’t be allowed back in the country. But hat else should I expect? Liberals deal with lies and obfuscation, not the truth.

religiouslib, one more point...
A conservative teacher wants to teach the material, wants to insist that the students master the material, and wants to pass those who demonstrate mastery and flunk those who do not. Unfortunately, public education's only standard is that students be indoctrinated and be passed on to the next grade regardless of whether or not they have mastered the material.

If ignorance is bliss, you and your liberal allies must be ecstatic...

Lon writes: 06, 2007 10:26 AM

The Nazis effectively chased away the leading ligths of what had been the greatest university system in the world. This is not surprising since fascism has populist appeal, but not much academic appeal.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

“This new Reich will give its youth to no one, but will itself take youth and give to youth its own education and its only upbringing. Your child belongs to us already... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community." Adolph Hitler, Chancellor of Nazi Germany http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/11-23-45.htm

religiouslib, that's the whole point!
religiouslib writes: "just because you donn't agree does not mean it is some kind of liberal conspiracy"

The "conspiracy" part is in the mere mention of a teacher's political ideology. In the classroom setting, especially with primary and secondary students, a teacher pushing ANY political ideology would be considered coercive and SHOULD be considered inappropriate... and that includes conservative ideology, if that makes you feel any better.

theBaron
Yes the rise of the Nazis greatly weakened Germany's academic system but it did not cause the country to implode. How does this support Prager's contention that the last few years argues for an inverse link between higher education and human decency?

phileo
you do understand that some conservative scientists have views on global warming you would not agree with.

just because you donn't agree does not mean it is some kind of liberal conspiracy

katy
doing well now thanks, some good friends lost their home but are recovering with help of friends ans family.

For Georgetwin -- correction
You write:

"NEA + Teachers = Human Garbage"

True, but amend to

NEA ALONE = evil garbage organisation!

Checked wiki entry on Dodd--no surprise that this groatmoron*** is a dhimmicrat.


***Pronounced "gritmoron", derived from Canadian appelation of "Grit" for "Liberal"--as in pol-party; but simplistically lowercasing to "grit" would confuse Americans, so I Britishised it to "groat".

Religouslib
Haven't been at TH recently, and hope all is well with you after the fires.

Yes, Floriduh is putting out many graduates who have no idea what college will entail.

My young friend has managed to look past this and become truly educated.

She is also the product of a horrible home. She asked to be removed, and has since been emacipated. She does receive SSI,but works full time while going to school.Full scholarship to University of Florida now, but she's looking for more.

religiouslib, it's legit
I said it was a pop quiz on Earth Day, provided as an exercise for the students on a day a substitute teacher (me) was filling in. There was no penalty for a wrong answer and extra credit for a right answer. The point wasn't physics; the point was Earth Day.

It's not brainwashing in the sense that thought manipulation was combined with physical incentives, but it WAS brainwashing in the sense that the students had no choice but to: 1>be in class, 2>answer the question, 3>be exposed to a liberal ideologue's agenda.

phileo
it is "brainwashing" when it is repeated over and over in every subject. Reading, Math, Science, Social Studies.

Everything is about the environment, "community," global warming, bad white people, how to be good little socialist.

The kids don't even know they are being taught this. But they do know that if they think or say anything different, they will be silenced, shut down, and the parents will be "given a talking to."

Like I say, I spend almost every day in schools across my district.


lilly writes 06, 2007 8:44 AM


Lawyers are the frequent object of derision. College and university professors are the held up as messengers of evil, and the right-wing appears to have no use at all for scholarship; work in the library or the lab is seen as "leisure time paid for by taxpayers". Newt Gingrich (formerly a college professor who has written books) says "professors just write books that nobody reads". The Right would replace a formal school system (standard in the civilized world for centuries) with do-it-yourself schooling.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

You know kids without college education have done OK, like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Steve Wozniak, Larry Ellison, yada, yada. We should all be as smart and billionaires like them, instead of some teacher or lawyer who can’t figure out how to read a cereal box.


lilly writes

Democrats, Hispanics, Muslims, African-Americans, psychologists, historians, homosexuals, artists, journalists, teachers, and intellectuals in general are routinely savaged by the right-wing media, including Internet sites and talk radio.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Do you mean savaged or not agreeing with libtards that AmeriKa should be surrendered to colonization, Marxism, Sharia Law, etc.?

No such thing as a right to a job
Why do people think that they have a RIGHT to a job? Or a RIGHT to a decent wage? There is NO SUCH THING!

The Founders stated you have the right to PURSUE those things, but not the right TO them. This is easily demonstrated: if I have the right to a job, then another must provide that job. If that person must provide the job, he is a slave to the one who has the supposed right. This applies to anything you can think of that another would have to provide: housing, food, clothing, etc. You do not have a right to any of these things. You only have the right to freely trade your time, talents and resources in order to trade for them. Or create them yourself. You don't have to right to force someone else to provide them.

One other thing: stop complaining about your wages. If you look at it objectively, your boss values your time more than you do! If you are willing to trade an hour of your time for, say, $10, and there is no force, it is self-evidently true that your boss values your time more than the $10 he pays you. It is also self-evidently true that you value that hour less than the $10. So your boss values that hour of your time more than you! Stop blaming others for where you are in life! If you think your time is more valuable than whatever you are trading it for, do something else! Stop being a victim. Start loving your life and creating value for others. There is a saying that says, 'You can have anything you want in life if you are willing to help enough people get something they want.'

georgetwin
that is the problem in our country right now.

both left and right take the most extreme examples of something they object to and use it as a universal stereotype of the other side.

do you really think that it is logical to think all school teachers are hitting on their students.
that all schools encourage condoms and the use of narcotics.


of course not but some conservatives like you only know how to deal in emotion not in facts and logic.

lilly writes 06, 2007 8:44 AM

education certainly leads to tolerance, and tolerance often leads to decency.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Hmmm. Good to know, maybe Hillary, Harry, Nancy Teddy, etc. can be given an education. Didn’t some 43 of these tolerant people sign a petition to have Rush fired a few weeks ago because they find common sense intolerable.

lilly writes

Uneducated people are more likely to operate from a basis of superstition, myth, and folklore. They are more subject to political propaganda. Often they are less critical of incoming information, accepting anything that is said by someone they like and trust (a fact which talk radio uses to its advantage).

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

That is why we need to educate that bunch of libtards in DC. I suspect the demongraphics of talk radio are among the higher educated and economically advantaged. Certainly to folks like you working at MoveOn.org any body who doesn’t celebrate Stalin, Castro, Che, and Mao day are living in superstition, myth and folklore.

lilly writes

It's not coincidence that the right-wing hegemony of recent years has brought us a wave of populism that deplores formal education.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

I think that is because the literacy rate was higher at the founding of the country than today, yet we pour a fortune down the libtards giver-ment k-12 indoctrination camps and half can’t graduate and the other half can read and write.

phileo
Thank you. You gave an excellent example. Sadly, I am in the public schools almost every day. Your example is right on.

The idealogy is pervasive and across from the board. From the moment students walk in in the morning, until they leave.

EVERYTHING is geared to teach first and foremost the "correct" way to think. And then if there's time, they do a little math.

But I empathize with the teachers too. They are buried under a mountain of requirements and methods they must follow.

Teaching to the test is one. There is so much gauging and measuring of students and performance levels and charts, it is not unlike doctors with little time for their patients because of the paperwork and stats that must be turned in.

Teachers no longer seem to have creative leeway in much of what they do. They too are controlled.

How Many Times
Have we seen teachers in Sexual Relationships with students?

Have we heard audio of students being instructed in proper use of a condom?

Have we heard audio ENCOURAGING student to take narcotics?

NEA+Teachers = Human Garbage.

oh please phileo
first of all that is not physics. that is 8th grade basic geomety

but to call it brainwashing is hysterical and over the top.


katy the (so called ) mean lady
it is a problem.

no child left behind says you have to show proficiency in math and english or the school is rated low and the principal and teachers can be fired.

so instead of a well rounded education we have teachers teaching the test.

now not the actual test but the areas covered by the test to the exclusion of everything else.

religiouslib, you need to get out more -
religious lib asks:

What ideology is taught in physics? Try this:

“Company “x” is daily dumping toxic waste from 4 drums, each measuring 48 inches tall with a diameter of 26 inches; company “y” is daily dumping toxic waste from 3 drums, each measuring 52 inches tall with a diameter of 26 inches; calculate the volume of daily toxic waste from each business (using the formula for calculating volume) and determine which company is having a greater negative impact on the environment.” - from a physics "pop quiz" given on Earth Day.

I'm sure there are examples of attempts to "brainwash" in each of the other academic disciplines you listed. And you're right about the curricula; elected officials DO bear the blame.

That's why TRULY religious people are making every sacrifice necessary to homeschool their children or place them in church schools.

Education?
I might have disagreed with Praeger,but for the fact that our children are not getting an education.

This is what Dodd is defending, and it is just not happening.

I have a young friend who is a senior here in Florida. She, and others in the school system have given me some pretty horrible examples of what is being taught.

These teachers are "teaching" so that the students pass the FCAT.PERIOD. This is not instilling any sort of confidence in their teachers' abilities.

teaching ideology???
simply a conservative myth

what ideology is taught in math.
what ideology is taught in physics
what ideology is taught in studying shakespeare.
what ideology is taught in art history.
what ideology is taught in p.e.
what ideology is taught in grammar.
what ideology is tought in the SAT prep class.

the school board picks the curriculum.
if there is a problem it is with the elected members of the community.






PABBIS
Lily is correct that the PABBIS website, particularly the home page, is horribly written.

But guess what? This is not a "home-school" site. This is a site for parents who's children are in public school. This was neither written by nor for homeschool parents.

This page is a product of "the system" system Lily so proudly endorses.

Homeschool parents, by and large, value education in its purest forms. The public school is much more about teaching idealogy, than teaching facts.

A couple excellent examples include the Well-Trained mind website, Peace Hill Press, and Classical Christian Homeschool. These approaches blow public school out of the water.

prager smarter then jefferson??

"Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government"

He embraced education as the equalizer for all children. Goals and objectives of elementary education as written and presented by Jefferson in the "Rockfish Gap Report of 1818 (D: p, 120): - To give every citizen information he needs for the transaction of his own business - To enable him to calculate for himself, express and preserve his own ideas, contracts and accounts in writing. - To improve by reading, his morals and faculties. - To understand his duties to his neighbors and country, and to discharge with competence the functions confided to him by either. - To know his rights; to exercise with order and justice those he retains; to choose with discretion the fiduciary of those delegates; and to notice their conduct with diligence, with candor, and judgment. - And, in general, to observe with intelligence and faithfulness all the social relations under which he shall be placed.


Commonsense 101
A college education is fine and much to be desired--if it's built on a foundation of commonsense. For example, the liberals who always seem to act out of emotion, not rationality, supported, and continue to support, the war of poverty, which created, and continues to create, more people willing to be designated as poor as long as the government continues to subsidize them. Commonsense: you subsidize something and you get more of it! If we subsidize illegal immigrants--HELLO--we're going to get more of them! I'm not a Yale graduate like the Clintons but understand basic economics. By the same token if you encourage non-citizens by granting them the prerogatives of citizenship, i.e., driver's licenses, you are depreciating current citizens and the values they respect like the Constitution and that leads, more often than not, to everybody disregarding the law--and, ultimately, to dictatorship to maintain peace and order. Did the Clintons learn that basic commonsense lesson at Yale?


I agree with Religiouslib
And disagree with Prager:

If there were to be a relationship between
education and virtue, AND THERE ISN'T, it would
seem it lies in less education.

See Sudan, Rwanda, Congo, Zimbabwe, etc.


But the larger point is there is no correlation
between education and virtue.

Best laugh all day
Lily, says, "it [government] has to SHAPE PUBLIC OPINION to support what government has already decided to do"!!!!

You're kidding right? So government decides for me, the "FORCES" me to bow by "Shaping (molding)my opinion"... to conform to what IT has already decided is BEST for me? And this through public education, I presume? And THIS is democracy to you???

Well, Lily, I can see they did a number on you. Silly me, and here I thought America was founded on the principal that it is the people who have a voice.

Also, Homeschool. You make a blanket statement, with no support, ie, "other outcomes have been less favorable." Really,(1) which are those? and (2) why do you care? People may educate their children as they wish. It's none of your business. Accountability? Oversight? That's what public schools are for.

Gov't needn't sanction, control, mandate, oversee, monitor, or approve my life, moment to moment, cradle to grave.

Weak people need gov't blessing for every action. But some of us can function and even thrive as contributing members to Society w/o your approval Lily.

I realize that being out of control is difficult for school marms such as your self. But please, don't flatter yourself. We don't care who you are, where you live, or what you do for a living. We can be tolerant, why can't you?

But other outcomes have been less favorable, and where accountability and oversight don't exist, how would we know the outcome, anyway?

Lon should re-read his German history
Some leading intellectual lights fled the Third Reich, it is true.

But enough professors and teachers stayed behind, accepting the Nazification of education-hard sciences as well as the liberal arts.

They helped keep the structure of society intact and running, as Hitler embarked on his scheme.

So, Prager's point is still valid: Education alone is not the answer to anything. Education is a tool, and it is amoral. A man needs a moral education (and certainly not the amoral education the Left has foisted on us), if he is to apply the rest of what he knows wisely.

Hillary delenda est.

To the statment:
"Great! Now I suppose he's going to tell us that great character is more important than great knowledge!"

I answer a resounding YES!
Knowledge can be summoned up in a moment for books, encyclopoedia, etc.
Great character comes from within, and it is bred, not taught.

Another Pragerian Tautology.

To distinctly deconstruct Dodd as destructive when he used his 30 second sound bite to put in good word for education is disingenuous.

If moral education merely consists of studying the "best individuals in history" you seem oddly hunkered down with Hitler, Stalin and Mao to make your case.

Let's not make moral education into Marcuse's One Dimmensional Man.

Dropout Factories or home schooling
Response to lilly: You lambast home schooling but have you ever considered why home schooling/vouchers/charter education is so popular? Parents were tired of their children coming home and lecturing the parents with leanings that the parents knew were wrong. When the parents objected they were told to shut up and leave the education to the professionals. The PTA was condemned and abandoned as an interference with education. Well, the parents were brow beaten out of the educations system and now we have probably the poorest elemHi education system in the industrialized world. Our dropout rate thru out the country is dismal. We even have schools that are designated as dropout factories. Those people who do make it thru elemHi school do not know how to write. You criticized a home schooling parent for not knowing English rules/skills. This parent got his/her education from the current failing school system. This home schooling parent recognized his/her lack of adequate education was the result of the current school system and was determined that his/her offspring would not suffer the same consequence of the failed school system.
.

.

STOP the Fair Tax SCHEME

The FairTax Scheme is a double tax on the savings of the citizens of the US. Ask Rep Linder (sponsor of the bill) why income (savings/investments/retirements/inheritances/home equity) taxed under the income tax system is not excluded from a double taxation at the point of sale consumption tax.



religiouslib writes:
this is an argument built on emotional rhetoric but that is typical of some conservative thinkers.

facts and logic scare them.

You might want to substitute liberal for conservative in that statement.

wait a minute
first prager gives us this statement

"In fact, the record of the last hundred years -- if it argues for any link between higher education and goodness -- argues for an inverse link. Put simply, the higher educated in Western society have been more likely to have awful moral values and more likely to support massive cruelty than the less well educated."

now the only facts he can come up with is the that the nazis leaders were hightly educated.
how disingenous, the german people fell lock stock and barrel for the nazis so actually it was the UNEDUCATED who were taken in by the nazi sentiment.

this is the most illogical essay i have ever read.

talk about myths, than prager starts re-iterating the conservative talking point that all colleges and universities are leftist churches.

hey all you conservative college graduates do you know your are less moral because you are educated.

does that really make sense.

how does studying engineering make you less moral.
how does studying computers make you less moral.

and so forth and so on.

this is an argument built on emotional rhetoric but that is typical of some conservative thinkers.

facts and logic scare them.


Prager v Dodd
However, to both of the above, public education is absolutely none of the Federal Government's business ever. Why somebody may ask in sheer ignorance? Number one, there is no authority granted whatosoever in the Constitution by the Founding Fthers, period. Secondly, simply and honestly put, public education is nothing but a Socialistic/Communistic system, and in reality the very most sublte destroyer to all that has to do with the proper functioning of the home as institued by God Himself from the very begining.

lilly history is a good teacher
Some of the most brutal dictators in history have been very well educated, cultured individuals. The idea that education breeds tolerance, is refuted by history. Lack of education does not necessarily lead to intolerance either. Frankly, neither camp has the high ground when it comes to morality.

Many Uber-educated people of today, are not above shouting down guest speakers they dont agree with, or banning "Hate Speech" from college campus'. Hate Speech being of course, any ideas they feel ideologically threatened by.

Knight who said Ni
I did not miss the point of the article. That is hard to do with Prager who basically only has one point. The point is that Liberalism leads to evil. In this case the idea was that since academics tend to be liberals, academia must be responsible for these great evils. But as usually he was not too careful with whether what he said in defense of his liberals are evil thesis was actually true.

JFP
You are right that I did not offer a proof. I said one needs to have some familiarity with academics at the time to tell.

Most of the developers of quantum mechanics were Germans. Of the bunch, Heisenberg stayed and worked half-heartedly at the German atomic bomb program. The rest left. Einstein left, Schrodinger fled, Pauli left, Wigner left, von Neumann left.

In philosophy it is true that that some of the phenomenologists stayed, the logical positivists left en masse (except for Schlick who was shot during class by one of his students). The existenitalists, who were french rather than german, tended to stay with the resistance or flee.

Another way to get at the level of the shift. I once published a paper in an old physics journal calld Die Zeitschrifft fur Naturforschung. They don't accept submissions in English.

There was a lot of German pride before the rise of Nazism. This was based on a lot of accomplishment. But the rise of the Nazis basically struck it a mortal wound.

lilly writes:
About a month ago on a townhall thread re homeschooling I commented that a pro-parent choice webiste (PABBIS, Parents Against Bad Books in Schools) showed a lot of grammatical errors. In particular, I pointed to the disagreement of pronouns and their antecedent nouns, and gave examples. A homeschooling parent immediately responded with this post: "Who made up this rule anyway, and why should I follow it?".

lilly, Most of the bad grammar, lousy spelling, poorly constructed paragraphs, and illogical premises found here at TH is generaly posted by the resident liberals. What does that say about heir level of education?

To poot
You're right, I am prejudiced. I believe in rules, education, standards, credentials, evidence, proof, scholarship, research, definition, and the rule of law. Apparently you don't. And YOU'RE the conservative?

Education or indoctrination ? ? ? ?
Kruschev, on one of his visits to the United States said that Russia would eventually win the war because, the war would be fought “from within” basically what he was saying that if he can get the teachers in college indoctrinated with communism (they succeeded in the 60's) they would teach it to the children. Since this is all the children know then a form of communism is what will be practiced. Viola we get secular progressive liberal socialism. To change it we must go back to the colleges and flush out the professors/teachers of this garbage so they cannot indoctrinate the elementary school teachers of tomorrow.

A good current example of early indoctrination is the children in Iraq. They are indoctrinated in the Muslim religion and taught that all things western are bad. Therefore they fight to the death with any means to eradicate the west.


Think about this once, every time a secular socialist liberal says we need education (in this area of thought) it really means we have to convince him/her that our way is the only way, there is no room for an alternative. So from now on when the left says education substitute the word indoctrination because that is really their way of thinking.

To Sonny
You charge liberals with believing that "whatever is right for you is okay". Indeed, it was the hippie culture of the 1960's that preached "if it feels good, do it". Therefore I would expect conservative philosphy to be somewhat the opposite of that.

Not so, if you look at homeschooling, where many defenders want no state standards or requirements. No educational background requirement for the homeschooling parent. No state-imposed curriculum. No accountability. No testing. No record-keeping. This sounds about as "do your own thing" as possible.

About a month ago on a townhall thread re homeschooling I commented that a pro-parent choice webiste (PABBIS, Parents Against Bad Books in Schools) showed a lot of grammatical errors. In particular, I pointed to the disagreement of pronouns and their antecedent nouns, and gave examples. A homeschooling parent immediately responded with this post: "Who made up this rule anyway, and why should I follow it?".

Tolerance vs morality
Tolerance of behavour which is self destructive and wrong is not a virtue. Tolerance like many of the left's buzz words is overrated. The fact is we tolerate the intolerabe so not to appear intolerant. Much like make a differance in Dr Sowell's column tolerance has taken on a political agenda.

Lilly
You say democracys can't force people by beating them up.The Clintons may not have beat people up but they used the power of govt.F.B.I. files to ruin many peoples lives.Real tolerant those Clintons

To nomansland Part III
Re homeschooling: go to the website of HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense Association) for information on various state requirements. Some states have no educational background for the homeschooling parent, no requirement of record-keeping, and no requirement of skills-assessment (testing). And, as you surely know, many who argue for homeschooling reject any state-imposed curriculum. Even as public school teachers are criticized for inadequate academic preparation, the argument is put forward that a parent with no academic preparation at all makes a more effective teacher. By this logic, a parent who dropped out of school in eighth grade, equipped with no syllabus or book list, will do a better job of teaching European History to a 12th-grader than a teacher who has spent the last twenty years immersed in the study and teaching of history. The Hundred Years' War? The Diet of Worms? The Maginot Line? Who cares: never heard of them.

Some homeschooled children have performed very well in certain areas. This is not surprising since the tutorial situation is usually more effective than what is seen when Teacher teaches a class of 35 and has to cope with social problems the homeschooling parent never heard of. But other outcomes have been less favorable, and where accountability and oversight don't exist, how would we know the outcome, anyway?

lilly
I know you will never see yourself as part of the problem than part of the solution.

Our country is mired in post-modernism and truth is being defined as, "whatever is right for you."

There is no way our nation or any other nation can exist if there are not absolutes. There must be absolute standards of right and wrong.

If you read between the lines of the people you seem to detest, perhaps, just perhaps, you will find they are upset with the liberals for redefining terms such as tolerance, respect, acceptance, moral judgments, personal preferences, personal rights, freedom, and truth.

Lilly, we are not all on the same page. Will we ever will be? Your guess is as good as mine.

To nomansland Part II
Fourth, every organization you mention as scholarly is a political right-wing think-tank, a wellspring of ideology. You seem to equate scholarship with ideology. Scholarship does research and goes where that research points, letting the chips fall where they may. Ideology begins with a belief and rejects findings that doesn't support that belief. Think-tanks exist to push an agenda and to generate propaganda. In a democracy the government can't force people to do what it wants by beating them up---it has to shape public opinion to support what government has already decided to do, achieving what Walter Lippmann called "manufactured consent". Think-tanks help government not only by formulating and advising policy but by selling that policy to the people.

Fifth, the documentation about Newt Ginrich comes from a FOX TV Sunday evening special he did maybe 8-12 months ago. Its purpose was to call into question the need for college education not only because it is expensive but because conservative parents don't want their children exposed to ideas different from those held in the home. I didn't make a note of the date but FOX surely has that archived.

Please go to Part III

lilly
surprisingly, this Republican populism comes with a level of social intolerance not seen in this country for many decades as Democrats, Hispanics, Muslims, African-Americans, psychologists, historians, homosexuals, artists, journalists, teachers, and intellectuals in general are routinely savaged by the right-wing media, including Internet sites and talk radio.

Lilly, I am surprised that you are completely O.K. with ALL of the categories you mentioned. Are you sure you want and are willing to take EVERYTHING each of the groups you listed brings to our culture?

None of us are perfect but to single out groups as having no imperfections is ludicrous. Each group and/or persons make their own beds and should be evaluated on that basis. If anyone desires "correction", he should receive them. I am not for "Moral Police", but because our society's standards are so convoluted, no one really knows because of post-modernism what standards they are to follow.

When you try to appease everyone, you appease no one.

To nomandsland
A few points in response to your three posts. First, you do not know in what profession I have worked since 1980, when I left public school teaching, because I have been scrupulously careful not to post identifying information. The reason for this is that my husband, an elderly heart patient who mustn't be upset, fears for my safety as I wander among conservatives with their oft-stated love of guns and retribution.

Second, your suggestion that schools have been intolerant by not inviting David Horowitz to speak is pretty silly since it is he who runs a program inviting college students to report their professors for words not politically correct with the right wing. I suppose schools have a right to defend themselves. And Ann Coulter, with statements as "liberals hate America more than Muslim terrorists do", is hardly an example of tolerance.

Third, re right-wing media, your Bill O'Reilly said it all when he addressed these words to a conservative talk show host who was his guest: "If they like you, they'll believe anything you tell them".

Please go to Part II

Republic
I take exception to chains view that you cannot have a republic without an educated public. Given the time and conditions extant when our republic was founded, the majority of our citizens could hardly be called "well educated". Our founders readily accepted that our republic needed to acknowledge an "informed public" if it was to succeed as a democracy. You can be educated, and still not be informed. Elitists are educated, but an informed public is the heart and soul of our America.

Lots of other answers
I agree with Mr. Prager, sans the Nazi analogy. I guess its all in your perspective. Those who consider themselves educated, might not be the best to determine whats right for all involved. Indeed, one might suggest that securing our borders and enforcing our immigration laws would also address virtually every problem confronting America's Citizens. Overpopulation, congestion, pollution, increased tax burdens, failing schools, inadequate health care, urban sprawl, vanishing green space and farmland, diminishing resources, lack of affordable housing, jobs, all would be positively impacted by securing our borders, and constraining illegal and legal immigration to the greatest extent possible. Stabilizing our population would address all of the same issues that education does, and would actually increase the educational opportunities for American Citizens. Thus far, no candidate has made progress by asserting that "more people chasing fewer resources" is anything other than a negative economically, socially or culturally. The fact that even the "dumbest" constituents can appreciate the congestion and tax burdens resulting from unconstrained immigration, thus opening the agenda of those "well educated" to speculation, should not go unnoticed!

Freedom of Choice, Speech, Association ~
Part III

“The Right would replace a formal school system (standard in the civilized world FOR CENTURIES) with do-it-yourself schooling.”
Fact-Check: Statement misleading and without basis. U S Dept of Education was set up about 1981. Our thirteen original American colonies had their first schools, organized by various Protestant churches. Conservatives of any political party favor parental freedom of choice in schools to consider Home Schools, private schools of either secular or religious training or Voucher Schools. Competition might save bad government schools where in Washington DC it takes $17,000 taxpayer dollars per year to FAIL to properly educate public school students.

“Not surprisingly, this Republican populism comes with a level of social intolerance not seen in this country for many decades as Democrats, Hispanics, Muslims, African-Americans, PSYCHOLOGISTS, historians, homosexuals, artists, journalists, teachers, and intellectuals in general are routinely savaged by the right-wing media, including Internet sites and talk radio.”
Fact-Check: If memory serves, the poster is in the Psychology field of education, and showing her sensitivity. The above statement would achieve more accuracy if revised to: “Social intolerance, aka ‘free speech’ or ‘political incorrectness’ has become more impolite (or worse) --- by ALL forms of media sources and ALL stripes of political commenters in the last dozen or more years for most of the abovementioned groups with the poster’s glaring exception of the most-vilified: CHRISTIANS, and perhaps JEWS --- with an EXCEPTION to inclusion of Democrats. ie Democrats and Republicans, Tories, Whigs got quite similar treatment in the late 1700s. I would note that those in the long list of the poster, who consider themselves “victims” of criticism often deserved it and never failed to return it in kind.

Tolerance or Choice?
Part II
“Townhall has a frequent advertiser that advises readers to view physicians either as motivated by greed or mired in ignorance; instead, people are counseled to rely on the advertiser's staff of fifteen "experts" who will consult and treat by e-mail.”
Fact-Check: Laws govern advertising; key word is ADVERTISER -- Not EDITORIAL OPINION.

“Lawyers are the frequent object of derision. College and university professors are the held up as messengers of evil, and the right-wing appears to have no use at all for scholarship;”
Fact-Check: Heritage Foundation, Alliance Defense Fund, American Enterprise Institute, Cato Institute, Claremont Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute, The Reason Foundation, Judicial Watch…among the long, long list of groups respected for scholarship & not just empty words).
Recall: [now deported] Professor Sami Al-Arian in Florida, Ward Churchill who are not alone.
“work in the library or the lab is seen as "leisure time paid for by taxpayers". Newt Gingrich (formerly a college professor who has written books) says "professors just write books that nobody reads".
Fact-Check: Please cite the original source of out-of-context quotation re “leisure time…”
http://newt.org/ Web site for Newt Gingrich’s educational, Congressional service and literary record. 14 Books, latest titles, “Winning the Future” and “A Contract with the Earth” (co-authored).

Tolerance vs Choice ~
lilly writes: Tuesday, November, 06, 2007 8:44 AM
Education and Tolerance. Whether education leads to human decency I cannot say, but education certainly leads to tolerance, and tolerance often leads to decency.

Part I
“education certainly leads to tolerance”?
Fact-Check this: Conservative lecturers at Universities, eg. “the Minutemen”, Ann Coulter, David Horowitz

“Uneducated people are more likely to operate from a basis of superstition, myth, and folklore.”
Just replace “uneducated” with “illiterate” and/or “illogical ideological” people.

“They are more subject to political propaganda. Often they are less critical of incoming information, accepting anything that is said by someone they like and trust (a fact which talk radio uses to its advantage).”
Fact-Check this: network TV and BBC, so-called “mainstream media” eg WashPost, NY Times, BostonGlobe, LA Times etc and you will find the dilettante uneducated & uninterested voter swallowing the loaded bait. Subliminal message favors muzzling conservative Talk Radio?


“It's not coincidence that the right-wing hegemony of recent years has brought us a wave of populism that deplores formal education.”
Fact-Check: Unverifiable false statement.

Lon
"To treat the Nazis as an academic movement requires a lack of familiarity with what was happening at the time."

What about Heidegger? The fact that some academics came here proves nothing, unless you can prove that MOST academics were anti-Nazi. I concede that Prager hasn't proved that most were pro-Nazi, but neither have you proved that most were anti-Nazi.

Consider Hermann Hesse's novel Steppenwolf. This was written in 1928, and Hesse talked as though professors in Germany at that time were very nationalistic and narrow-minded (in contrast with the narrator). It is easy enough to imagine that they would support the Nazis, just as Heidegger did.

Tp pjal
Your post reminds me of an incident reported to me by a young friend in the late 1960's. At that time both he and his wife were attending law school. He called a plumber who rejected the offered job, saying, "I don't take small jobs. I don't need to fix your toilet---I made $70,000 last year" (a lot at the time). My friend and his wife proceeded to graduate from law school. The woman was made a judge at quite a young age and served on the Florida bench for thirty years. The man went into corporate law and made millions and millions. I suppose that plumber eventually died still fixing toilets---or refusing to do so.

Lon
"To treat the Nazis as an academic movement requires a lack of familiarity with what was happening at the time."

I don't believe Mr. Prager was describing "Nazis as an academic movement" He was arguing that just because these people had a higher education they were not immune from the same immoral movements as the less educated. In fact they even embraced and led the movement in many cases.

I think you missed the point of the article.

Education is Part of the Answer
Education is part of the answer. But it depends on the character of education. Are we going to teach children to be office drones? Or are we going to teach them to free thinkers who grasp the concept of power and the responsibility of organizing against it?

Why current education isn't helpful for making real progress for society and for individuals is because (a) it reproduces societal hierarchy, (b) reinforces training in docility and subordination, and (c) the structure of the American capitalism means that, even with a equal education for all, the country will have an equally educated majority working for progressively disminishing wages and salaries, instead of an unequally educated majority working for progressively diminishing wages and salaries.

In the final analysis, pushing for equalty in education, while obvious and morally proper, is for liberal politicians propaganda to cover the real sources of inequality in America. Education without training in critical and opposition thinking is in the long run rather pointless.

the nazis and academia
The Nazis effectively chased away the leading ligths of what had been the greatest university system in the world. This is not surprising since fascism has populist appeal, but not much academic appeal.

This happened to be much to our benefit here in the US as many of the great german thinkers came to the US (most famously, of course, Einstein but the German immigrants built most of our great University departments).

To treat the Nazis as an academic movement requires a lack of familiarity with what was happening at the time.

But then a great thing about a defense of a lack of education as Prager gives is that one is at the same time defending being ignorant of ones subject matter.

Woody
Isn't one definition of insane: Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

I think the libs "fit the bill" with their automatic socialist answers for everything.

Education and communism
Better look out. Our leading democrat and most intelligent, (her words, not mine) still think socilaism is the answer. Probabbly will still believe it when it fails in yet another country, ours.

Education is like a gun.
A gun that you can shoot but not aim. It can be used for good or ill, purposefully or not. A strong moral and ethical underpinning gives the ability to aim that gun accurately and with purpose.

Whether a person uses their education for good or bad will always be their choice.

An education needs to be accompanied with some purpose. For some it may be greed, with others community service, usually a combination of both. If a person does not receive a moral and ethical education he will create his own morals and ethics, picking and choosing what is learned from society and will be easily influenced by propaganda and indoctrination which, is what is happening in most colleges today.

lilly
Your post is filled with anti-conservative bigotry and stereotypical prejudices. You say that education leads to tolerance? Do you know what the word "tolerance" means or is it some leftist cliche that you use to make yourself feel better? Are people with religious (other than Islam) and conservative values "tolerated" on your esteemed college campuses? Do you tolerate those who are not yet baptized in the church of man-induced global warming? Do you "tolerate" any ideas with which you don't agree? Tolerance is a two-way street; it is not just something that you demand of other people. Besides, not everything SHOULD be tolerated.

The point of Mr. Prager's article is not to poo-poo education, per se, but to simply state that "education" in and of itself is not the solution to the difficulties we face, especially when leftists insist on using our schools as jobs programs and political indoctrination camps.


I deplore the education 'system'
Most of what they teach their captive audience of teenagers in school is nothing but propaganda instead of anything useful. Science class could have been used to teach any number of things. Instead they spend time teaching we 'evolved' from lesser creatures instead of being 'created' by God. Indeed, they happily flunk anybody who dares to question the secular version of how we got here despite nobody knowing for certain how life began! Tech companies are importing workers from India when American workers should be smart enough to get those jobs if the education system would do it's job & educate people to be able to get those jobs instead of coming out of high school with just enough 'skills' to flip burgers at the local McDonald's. If you want to learn anything, it's quicker to learn it yourself than to expect to learn it in a classroom. Education has totally degenerated into a 'politically correct' propaganda spouting cesspool instead of teaching anything useful during hours spent in a classroom. Five stars for Prager's column as it hits the nail on the head regarding morals these days being left out of what passes for education as they're much too busy passing out condoms to concern themselves with teaching morality.

Living wage
Nam65-66:
There are two very distinct chains of thought on a "Livable Wage". The first is the liberal concept of a livable wage which means we all get paid the same despite our education or experience, we all have the same cradle to grave health care (They wouldn't want Bill Gates to have better healthcare then you or me)and you live on that.
Then there is the conservative approach, where you get paid based on what your skills (or lack of skills) are worth in the present market place and you live on that.

Three Cups of Tea
shows how important schooling and education can be.

Especially for girls in Muslim countries.

Which schools do we want educating Muslims?

Muslim or non-Muslim schools?

Give to the Central Asia Institute.
Sorry about the solicitation, but read the book
_Three Cups of Tea_ and see what I mean, hopefully
for most of us it tells what we already knew.

Education
Lilly as usual is wrong.You do not need a college education to succeed.She speaks of tolerance.All most all college professors that are liberals are not tolerant of opposing ideas.A lot of people with phd's have no common sense.I have a teacher friend of mine that has a phd,and she teaches 3rd grade.She only got the phd for the money,as she said it did not make her a better reacher.GOD BLESS AMERICA

WWJAD
"Laws for the liberal education of the youth,
especially of the lower class of the people, are so
extremely wise and useful, that, to a humane and
generous mind, no expense for this purpose would
be thought extravagant."

-- John Adams (Thoughts on Government, 1776)

Reference: The Works of John Adams, Charles Adams, ed., 199.

Dodd the hypocrite
(I'm ashamed to say) my senator the hypocrite said it was fine to attack General Patraus (sp?) but signed the foolish letter to Rush Limbaugh. I sent him a note about the hypocracy, but never heard from him. My next note is to ask Dodd what he thinks of vouchers.

lilly
In the 1970s and again in the 1990s I lived in a city to which a famous black South African had migrated. It is true that they weren't famous here, but they were widely known and hugely popular back in South Africa. So how did your liberals and leftists react to the presence of such a person in their midst? They utterly ignored them. And why? Because they were famous back home as soccer players rather than as artists, musicians or authors. Being a soccer player put them beyond the pale for virtually every leftist. Just for the record, they were Ace Ntsoelengoe and Doctor Khumalo.

My point, lilly, is simple: Clean up your own act first. Get rid of your own prejudices and then you can bash others for not getting over theirs.

cornpone harry writes: 06, 2007 2:11 AM

I remember the 1950s when a company felt a social moral contract and a loyalty to its employees: They just didn't fire good lotal employees except for misconduct or unless there was a real risk of insolvency of they kept them.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

I remember my dad and myself as a matter of fact refuse higher paying jobs because we were loyal employees. 35 years ago I was once offered $100K as a signing bonus to literally walk across the street to the competitor. Seems to me we want loyal employers and disloyal employees today.

50 years ago our country was extremely stagnant from a functional perspective. For example you would set up a factory floor for runs of 20+ years. Today companies like Rubbermade will design a product, tool it, and run a production all in 2 weeks, kill it and do another completely different production line. Our economy is radically more responsive to the customer, therefore the work force must be radically more fluid.

cornpone harry writes:

They certainly did not fire them simply to raise exiting profits even higher just to mollify demanding, greedy stock holders, and make outlandish salaires for overpaid CEOs possible.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Of course the 50’s employers and stockholders were greedy, they just made more by keeping the same work force on a 20 year product cycle rather than retrain new people continually. Anyway can you cite one overpaid CEO or greedy stockholder and explain why that is so.



cornpone harry writes: 06, 2007 2:11 AM

People with colleg degrees are working in large numbers the service economy as retail clerks, waiters, security guards, cooks, couriers,

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

That is because they can’t think. I remember a high skul grad at work who had to take a test. He went to the guy in the company who had 3 PHDs and had failed the test twice already over a 1 year period, to borrow his study material for an hour while he ate lunch at his desk and took calls because he had to leave to take the test after lunch. The PHD laughed at the insanity of the uneducated man, explaining that he has studied this for a year and has failed twice. The idiot passed the test. I have hired guy’s with masters from some of the best skuls in AmeriKa. That is fine, but that doesn’t mean they can think. It merely means they can regurgitate stuff they memorize.

cornpone harry writes

Some of the paucity of decent paying jobs is due to blatant age discrimination,

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

So people should be rewarded for longevity not productivity.

cornpone harry writes

sometimes its due to the higher supply of college grads coupled with the lower demands
of employers who unrestrained by decency or conscience, and motivated by greed are willing to layoff/fire faithful, loyal, productive, and hinest employees, and then force another (younger worker)to take on the additional work of the fired employee in addition to what they already do- (with no addtional pay) or else risk the same shabby treatment afforded their fired co-worker.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Don’t you think young workers deserve a chance to have a job? The older employee has already had the benefit of a job, a chance to buy a home, car, raise kids. Why shouldn’t young folks be allowed the same courtesy?

Morality and education
Schools are not teaching morality they are teaching immorality. What was immoral when I was growing up is now viewed as moral. Illicit sex acts such as adultery and homosexuality are being taught as normal behavior. These are subjects that used to be handled in the home. My religion teaches me that they are immoral. Want to get in trouble today as a student exercise your 1st Amendment right regarding this immoral behavior and get punished.

Education and Tolerance
Whether education leads to human decency I cannot say, but education certainly leads to tolerance, and tolerance often leads to decency. Uneducated people are more likely to operate from a basis of superstition, myth, and folklore. They are more subject to political propaganda. Often they are less critical of incoming information, accepting anything that is said by someone they like and trust (a fact which talk radio uses to its advantage).

It's not coincidence that the right-wing hegemony of recent years has brought us a wave of populism that deplores formal education. Townhall has a frequent advertiser that advises readers to view physicians either as motivated by greed or mired in ignorance; instead, people are counseled to rely on the advertiser's staff of fifteen "experts" who will consult and treat by e-mail. Lawyers are the frequent object of derision. College and university professors are the held up as messengers of evil, and the right-wing appears to have no use at all for scholarship; work in the library or the lab is seen as "leisure time paid for by taxpayers". Newt Gingrich (formerly a college professor who has written books) says "professors just write books that nobody reads". The Right would replace a formal school system (standard in the civilized world for centuries) with do-it-yourself schooling.

Not surprisingly, this Republican populism comes with a level of social intolerance not seen in this country for many decades as Democrats, Hispanics, Muslims, African-Americans, psychologists, historians, homosexuals, artists, journalists, teachers, and intellectuals in general are routinely savaged by the right-wing media, including Internet sites and talk radio.

tweaky writes: 06, 2007 12:41 AM


Now I suppose he's going to tell us that great character is more important than great knowledge!

DESKJOCKEY

OSCAR WILDE,” Education is an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing is taught.”

MARK TWAIN, “ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.”


C.S. LEWIS, " Education without religion, useful, as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil."

John Dewey, father of progressive education, and a staunch socialist, stated in 1899 that “the children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society that is coming, where everyone [would be] interdependent.”

The proper function of education, Thomas Jefferson wrote, is “to enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom.”

In the United States, politics are the end aim of education.—Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America. Vol. 1, pg 318

John Stuart Mill: "general state education is a mere contrivance for molding people to be exactly like one another….It establishes a despotism over the mind."

“Formal education carried on subversively, can be in the forefront of building a new moral order... it provides some measure of the physical and social isolation necessary for the incubation process.” (Roberta T. Ash; “Durkheim’s Moral Education Reconsidered: Toward the Creation of a Counterculture”. In SCHOOL REVIEW, November, 1971, p. 132)


PRESIDENT CALVIN COOLIDGE, " Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and Determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ' Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."

Old guy, young guy
Young guy: How did you become successful?
Old guy: Wise decisions.
Young guy: How do I learn to make wise decisions?
Old guy: Experience.
Young guy: How do I get experience?
Old buy: Bad decisions.
Without wise, noble, faithful, moral mentors... education is little more than learning facts. The academy is now full of moral lepers who are full of themselves. Not all mind you, but it is a mission field at best.

what is education?
Education should teach thinking. Rote learning is something any lawyer can do-this is not the same thing! Or am I way off base here?

Dennis
Your article is right on the moolah! The moral fabric of this country is coming unravelled, and it seems that many in this country like the direction it is going in. I will keep the youts of my family in check. They "WILL" respect themselves and others. They will do the right things to others, just as they will never settle for wrongs brought to them. They will stand on their own two feet and be curtious, couragious and thoughtful. These are the lessons they got when they were in school, and now out of school and very productive in the work place. They are now teaching their children the same way. There is hope for the youts out there. And I will continue to do my part for them.

You say education, I say
The left and my view of education are quite different. What the left calls education is actually indoctrination using our public school system. To the left education means putting into the heads of as many children as possible the ideals and dreams of the left. In a democracy, ultimately a majority rules.

I disagree with Mr. Prager, just because the left has turned our schools into "temples of radical secularism" doesn't mean that they have to remain so. IN the 1960s I had courses in ethics, Western Philosophy, and the importance of religions to civilizations. Religion was not portrayed as an evil force. I was taught that like any other human activity religion could be corrupted. I was taught that some segments of the political left believe that all religion was evil. Years later my daughter was taught their were pilgrims early in our country's history, but it was never mentioned that pilgrims were religious refuges.

The question I have for Sen Dodd and his ilk is why we spend more on education by any measure than the rest of the world and still have a large number of adults from that system who are basically ignorant of important skills like reading, math, and the fundamentals of science.

Morality in Schools
If you get a chance to look at the McGuffy Readers, which were used up into the 1930s in the two-room school houses including the one Daddy attended in Wisconsin, you will understand that morality was taught in schools by choosing the literature the children read and by the discussion questions the teacher was encouraged to use.

Then there were the *Mental Hygiene* films we saw in the 1950s in school, that taught us among other things, to bathe at least once a week and be sure to wash our hair when we did, and how to properly behave at the family dinner table, among many other things.

Those of us who came home from college during the first semester and started explaining to our parents how wrong they were about things soon found out that although our parents may not have graduated from high school, they knew plenty more than we did about the way the world really worked. Daddy was a milk inspector who worked with farmers, and he talks frequently about the educated sons of those farmers who came home with the idea that mortgaging everything they had and buying six figure farm equipment was the way to get rich, rather than living within their means -- and who lost everything their fathers had built up by more careful attention to the fact that farming is a crap shoot at best. Experience trumps book learning in many fields of endeavour.

But conversely, there are certainly plenty of educated people who know better how to do certain things. I would not give you a dime for a self-educated doctor, for example; I would rather have a doctor who had paid attention in Brain Surgery class than somebody who saw it done on The Learning Channel.

True, education by itself meaningless
(1) Paul Joseph Goebbels had a PhD
(2) A.Q. Khan HAS a PhD
(3) Ralph Klein, erstwhile Calgary mayor and Alberta Premier, is a high-school dropout.

The first two are examples of evil, while Mr. Klein has history of at least some good achievements:
(1) Winter Olympics for Calgary--he was mayor when the bid was put in, and when the events happened
(2) Calgary's only Stanley cup was during his tenure (ok, not DUE to it)
(2) Some revival of oil industry (especially tarsands), post weasel-Don Getty (Klein succeeded Getty as Premier in 1992)

RockyJones writes:
The water boardings
debate and the idiots that support it are proof that education does not imply decency

Robert

Just once I would like to read what you libs would do to protect this country and your precious rights rather than tell us what you are against! Had Zaccarius Missouaui (what ever his name is) been treated like the terrorist he is rather than an undocumented immigrant maybe the attack on 9-11 could have been prevented. But of course it was the price we had to pay so ZM's precious rights could be protected.

no bs artist writes:
Is he for real?
Is Dennis Prager on Drugs???? (can I have some). I've heard that ignorance is bliss and Prager has proved this cliche absolutely correct. We don't need no fancy book learning, dagnabit!!!! Dennis should compete on Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader!

You just proved in 46 words what Dennis Pranger took an entire column to explain. Good work!

Morality and Education
I must have missed the part about morality being taught in Schools I always thought that morality was handled by Churches and ones parents. The schools should stick to reading writing and arithmetic. With regard to Sen Dodds statement about education what politician of the last 30 years has not stressed the importance of education. You can not have a republic without an educated electorate. Also if you look at the heads of the two faciest states most notiablly Germanny and Italy they were not that educated and in both of those countires they were more or a populist movement at first due to economic problems and that once they came to power they used force to keep it as well as a propoganda type education to some of the youth of those nations.

just so you know
Chris Dodd had to tough it out at Georgetown Prep as a lad, because he is the son of Thomas Dodd who was the U.S. Senator from Connecticut.

cornpone harry
"... motivated by greed ...."

Liberals and leftists are always talking about greed in Corporate America. They think that's the only place it exists. I can talk about greed and stinginess among leftists academics. These are the people, often from wealthy backgrounds who went to elite schools, who get grant after grant after grant and don't care that others further down the academic ladder, who generally are from poorer backgrounds and who didn't go to elite schools, get little or nothing. In fact, not only are they greedy and stingy, they're snobs as well.

Once I saw this phenomenon, I stopped listening to leftists who talk about greed in Corporate America.

What is a "Livable wage"?
Just asking.

unanchored secular libs
It is worse even than Prager says. Secular liberals don't simply disagree with sane folks about definitions of good and bad. They actively reject any notion of good or bad. For something to be bad, it would have to be measured against an objective truth, which does not exist for a secular liberal.

Is he for real?
Is Dennis Prager on Drugs???? (can I have some). I've heard that ignorance is bliss and Prager has proved this cliche absolutely correct. We don't need no fancy book learning, dagnabit!!!! Dennis should compete on Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader!

Education is overrated
Attaining a college degree has always been a high priority, no doubt about it, but it is not all that it's cracked up to be, especially when kids are graduating with overwhelming debt because they've had it drilled into their heads that without a degree, they can't succeed.

Perhaps it was the times, perhaps not. For it was just as important then as it is now when I first attended college and dropped out after just a year and a half. Over the years, I somehow managed to parlay an excellent high school education into a career which put many Master's degree holders under my tutelage.

By the time I'd reached 48, we were able to comfortably retire, leave the rat race and smell the coffee. College courses do not teach one how to be smart, it does nothing to instill common sense or those elemental factors of drive, persistence, or excelling. It isn't the be all and end all of how one gets ahead in a competitive workplace despite all of the studies and statistics to the contrary.

And it isn't worth burdening yourself with the terrible debt that so many of our youngsters have staring them in the face as they enter the workplace today.

Kudos to Prager for challenging conventional wisdom.......

Prager is partially correct
Education is not the answer to
a lack of livable wages and
jobs that pay them.

People with colleg degrees are working in large numbers the service economy as retail clerks, waiters, security guards, cooks, couriers,
you name it.

Some of the paucity of decent paying jobs is due to blatant age discrimination,
and sometimes its due to the higher supply of
college grads coupled with with the lower demands
of employers who unrestrained by decency or
conscience, and motivated by greed are willing to layoff/fire faithful, loyal, productive, and hinest employees, and then
force another (younger worker)to take on the additional work of the fired employee in addition to what they already do- (with no addtional pay) or else risk the same shabby treatment afforded their fired co-worker.

I remember the 1950s when a company felt a social moral contract and a loyalty to its employees: They just didn't fire good lotal employees except for misconduct or unless there was a real risk of insolvency of they kept them.

They certainly did not fire them simply to raise exiting profits even higher just to mollify demanding, greedy stock holders, and make outlandish salaires for overpaid CEOs possible.



'

Education sans morality endangers us
Prager hits upon the very source of our societal decline -- increasing levels of education coupled with decreasing standards of morality.

In fact, declining morality is now eroding the quality of education as well. Polls show a high number of college students admit to cheating on tests and assignments. A similar number, 60%, of professors admit to having observed cheating in their classes, but did nothing to stop it.

If this trend continues, college diplomas will lose much of the value they once held.

Then there is the problem of highly intelligent graduates of leading univesities who have superb technical knowledge in the sciences or business finance but whose inferior morality leads them to use their knowledge for selfish and illegal purposes.

The leaders of Enron were all "whiz kids" from leading universities who were appallingly morally deficient. The damage they did to employees and investors far surpassed that of a gang of high school drop outs who rob banks.

Walsh & Middleton
"A Transforming Vision"
I said Marsh. I meant Walsh.

diff worldviews declare diff problems
with different answers.

2 examples:
Christianity defines
The Problem: sin,
The Solution: salvation.

Secular Humanism defines
The Problem: ignorance,
The Solution: education.

See "A Transforming Vision", Marsh & Middleton.

Education is NOT the answer?
Great! Now I suppose he's going to tell us that great character is more important than great knowledge!

Prager offends me! I don't like what he says; I don't like the way he says it. Therefore it MUST be hate speech!

Whew! Saying all that renewed my self-esteem. Prager's columns always attack my self-esteem. How does he sleep at night!?

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