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Tuesday, September 11, 2007
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Head of Reform Judaism Says Wearing Veil Should Be Respected
by Dennis Prager
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No reader would be faulted for thinking that the title of this column is a spoof. After all, Reform Judaism, like liberal Christian denominations, is exquisitely sensitive to women's equality. Thus, Reform Judaism was the first major Jewish denomination to ordain women, and the first to have its seminaries discourage referring to God as "he."

One would think, then, that the last thing the head of a movement devoted to women's equality would endorse is the covering of women's faces with a veil. This is one of the most dehumanizing and degrading practices that has ever been foisted on women.

That is why it is noteworthy that Rabbi Eric Yoffie, the head of Reform Judaism, in a speech before hundreds of American Muslims at the annual convention of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), said: "Why should anyone criticize the voluntary act of a woman who chooses to wear a headscarf or a veil? Surely the choice these women make deserves our respect, not to mention the full protection of the law."

In the long history of women's inequality, it is difficult to name almost anything more anti-woman, dehumanizing and degrading than the veil. We know people by their face. Without seeing a person's face, we feel that we do not know the person. When we read about someone in the news, whether known for good or ill, we immediately study the person's face. One can have one's entire body covered, and it means nothing in terms of whether we feel we know the person. But cover a person's face, and the person might as well be invisible.

Indeed, the veiled woman is intended to be invisible. That is precisely the goal of the veil.

In light of the veil's dehumanization of women, how could anyone, especially a rabbi on the left, say he respects a woman choosing to wear a veil?

The rabbi could offer only two possible responses.

One possibility is that he does not think the veil degrades women. But it is almost impossible to imagine any non-Muslim holding such a position. On the other hand, he did lump the veil along with headscarf, as if covering one's hair and covering one's face were in some way analogous. Still, it is hard to believe that the rabbi equates hiding one's face and hiding one's hair.

So the rabbi is left with one other explanation: that he used the word "voluntary." But that explanation indicts him as much as does the first explanation. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of fundamentalist Muslim culture -- whether in the Muslim world or in the West -- knows that, given the social, religious and familial pressures on women to wear a veil, the veil is not worn voluntarily in any meaningful sense of the word.

But while the rabbi respects Muslim women who choose to wear the veil, he had words of contempt for American women who choose to dress like Lindsay Lohan. Like others on the left, Rabbi Yoffie only has standards for Westerners, especially Americans, not for other cultures. It is the left's soft bigotry of low expectations that has often been noted.

In the rabbi's desire to ingratiate himself with his audience, he engaged in the generations-old left-wing practice of moral equivalence. Just as during the Cold War the left regularly equated America and the Soviet Union as "the two superpowers" -- which is why there was universal liberal condemnation of President Ronald Reagan's calling the Soviet Union an "evil empire" -- much of the left today morally equates American fundamentalist Christians with fundamentalist Muslims.

So before a large Muslim audience, Rabbi Yoffie singled out two evangelical Christians, Franklin Graham and Pat Robertson, and a Jew -- me -- as anti-Muslim. He essentially identified us as the Christian and Jewish moral equivalents of Muslims who hate Jews and Christians. That moral equivalence was as immoral as Rabbi Yoffie's defense of the veil.

Now, as it happens, I have never uttered or written a bigoted word against Muslims, and so the rabbi did not actually quote me saying something anti-Muslim. Instead the rabbi distorted what I once wrote. He said, "How did it happen that when a Muslim congressman takes his oath of office while holding the Koran, Dennis Prager suggests that the congressman is more dangerous to America than the terrorists of 9/11?"

Here is what I actually wrote: "When all elected officials take their oaths of office with their hands on the very same book, they all affirm that some unifying value system underlies American civilization. If Keith Ellison is allowed to change that, he will be doing more damage to the unity of America and to the value system that has formed this country than the terrorists of 9/11."

I did not say that Keith Ellison is more dangerous to America than the 9/11 terrorists. I said that Ellison's replacing the Bible with another religious book for the first time in American history is more dangerous to American unity and to American values than the terrorists were. In fact, I feel that way about far more non-Muslim Americans, such as Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn and Michael Moore. And I repeatedly noted in the same article that the issue had nothing to do with the Koran or Islam, that I would have said this about a congressman replacing the Bible with the Book of Mormon, or with "Dianetics" or any other text. The rabbi slandered me before a national and world Muslim audience.

Slander, morally equating fundamentalist Christians with fundamentalist Muslims, and respecting women who "voluntarily" wear veils: What the left has done to liberal denominations within Christianity and Judaism is a moral and religious tragedy. For example, liberal churches that regard America and Israel as villains have inverted Judeo-Christian morality. But little exemplifies the moral decay of the religious left as does its replacing Judeo-Christian moral standards with multiculturalism and tolerance. It has led to one of its leading clergy announcing that the veil is worthy of respect.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Yoffie and the Laws of Tznius
This begs the question...what does Yoffie think about the traditonal Jewish rules of Tznius?

Every time I see a veil
I wonder who IT IS. I don't know if IT is male or female. I have no idea of age or health or even disposition. So much information about a person is learned through SEEING the face and the expressions of the face.

Lastly, NO WAY can someone take a drivers license photo while wearing a veil!

Is this an *act of appeasement?*

Context
You have to read deep in the article to see that what Prager is really upset about here is that Yoffe denounced him over the Ellison issue. For those who don't know the intricacies of the world of religious judaism Prager and I both inhabit, unaware of Prager's escalating attacks on those of us finding religious support for our liberal worldviews in the Reform movement, it would be easy to miss the context.

Yoffe is obviously referring to VOLUNTARY wearing of the veil in Western societies, as can be seen if you read his comments in their full context. Yes, to me, the veil is demeaning to women. But so are numerous practices of Orthodox Jewry, such as the fact that men are separated from women in houses of prayer by a mechitza (curtain, or screen). In a pluralistic society, we must respect such differences.

Yoffe said many things in his speech. Prager picked out one sentence he didn't like. Yoffe also used his opportunity to say this to his Muslim audience:

"The dialogue will not be one way, of course. You will teach us about Islam and we will teach you about Judaism. We will help you to overcome stereotyping of Muslims, and you will help us to overcome stereotyping of Jews. We are especially worried now about anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. Anti-Semitism is not native to Islamic tradition, but a virulent form of it is found today in a number of Islamic societies, and we urgently require your assistance in mobilizing Muslims here and abroad to delegitimize and combat it. A measure of our success will be our ability, each of us, to discuss and confront extremism in our midst."

Read the whole speech and think for youselves- a "second time":)

http://urj.org/yoffie/isna/

What is Voluntary?
laborlawyer... He also points out that for most women, wearing the veil is as voluntary as my compliance with tax laws. (It's voluntary in name only)

It isn't a "veil"
In my mind, "veil" conjures up images of a diaphanous material floating gauzily across a woman's face, enhancing her beauty much as a hat would.

Forgetting the burka...the main purpose of the hijab is to cover the woman's hair and hairline (and sometimes chin) in such as way as to purposely make her unattractive, much as a nun's hood does. It is the age-old embodiment of casting women as either whores or saints, rather than human beings, and places the onus for controlling men's libidos on the woman. Wasn't this made clear recently when a prominent Muslim leader in Australia, I believe, commented on how a woman deserved being raped because it was like displaying raw meat in front of starving cats?

The wearing of the hajib or headcovering of any type by Muslim women is, in my opinion, little more than the actions of a small child who can't go out in public without his "blankie." While I understand the cultural pressure and fear, or even outright lack of choice, that results in women wearing it in Muslim countries, I do not understand those who would consciously choose to do so in this country. I treat such women coldly when I see them in public -- they need to be made to feel uncomfortable.

I strongly believe that if we don't fight political correctness and start putting societal pressure on Muslims now to "assimilate or get out," then we are headed for a more violent confrontation down the road. The only reason they lay low in this country right now is their lack of numbers and the fact that they realize that Americans are still pissed off about 9/11.

laborlawyer.....
....is wrong, Prager is correct.

Laborlawyer wouldn't ever be my lawyer.

SEPTEMBER ELEVEN: "BLESS THEM ALL!"
SEPTEMBER ELEVEN: "BLESS THEM ALL!"

These women wore hijab
http://a4.vox.com/6a00b8ea071cde1bc000cdf7ec1c34094f-500pi

Just as every American woman did.

Now, as for the burqa, Well, now writes:
"Every time I see a veil
I wonder who IT IS. I don't know if IT is male or female. I have no idea of age or health or even disposition. So much information about a person is learned through SEEING the face and the expressions of the face."


---


Just who made it your business, well now, to know WHO "it" is, WHETHER "it" is a male or female, OR to know "its" age, health or disposition.

Well now points out that "much information about a person is learned through SEEING the face and the expressions of the face". That's quite true and if some people wish not to put that information on public display, that is their right as Americans.

I would feel much more comfortable in the presence of a burqa-clad woman than I would in the presence of a nutcase child endangerer like Britney Spears strutting her fat in all its glory.


veil
This is America--if you cannot acept our way of living, why did you come here--goes for the Hispanics too.

veil
This is America--if you cannot acept our way of living, why did you come here--goes for the Hispanics too.

A veiled threat
Now, I understand that several male Al-Quaida leaders, surely in an attempt to identify with their sisters in the faith, have donned veils when passing check points. Pity all were deprived of viewing their beards and eyes full of fear and hatred. And why would an open society want to deprive women and men of such a choice?

I will respect...
...their right to wear a veil in public or private,if they respect my right to call it stupid,in public or private.The same Constitution that gives them the right to wear a veil,gives me a right to free speech.

How reasonable, how enlightened,
how secure, and naive. The benign notion of the marketplace of ideas. We may all comfortably sit and discuss our ideas. It's really just like trying on clothes. Whatever fits, wear it. And, like the doff of a hat, we can express critical disapproval of those ideas that really don't become us.
Ideas, however, move people to action. Some ideas result in planes being flown into buildings. In the world of consequences, ideas must be judged and actions taken against them and people who will follow them.
A voluntary wearing of a veil. How benign. A fashion choice. I hope that the next wearer of a veil, whose face is on the profile lists, will not be the one who blows up your bus, Mr. Phylo.

"I CHOOSE the veil!!"
Fine. Wear it in the privacy of your own home or in the sanctuary where you choose to worship. Just don't insist on wearing it for a driver's license photo and don't insist on wearing it in public in THIS country.

The veil IS dehumanizing and degrading to women. And on the pragmatic side of the equation it presents a security risk. IF women choose to wear the veil in deference a chauvinistic man or a chauvinistic religion, they should also be willing to remove the veil. If they choose to engage in commerce (checking out at the market comes to mind), or if a public safety officer requests the veil's removal, these women should be required to comply.

BTW, at the other end of the spectrum, public nudity is also dehumanizing. I don't like the veil but, Britney, next time go ahead and wear a headscarf and a burkha. You NEED to cover up, girl!

Nam65-66
I think that's all anyone can ask.

I can wear my crucifix, muslims can wear their veils.

They can make fun of me, I can make fun of them.

If only more people thought like us...heh...

Oh yeah....Wes...
Yeah, how dare somebody not accept our way of living....

Like wearing whatever the hell you feel like no matter what some idiot bigot tells you!

One minor quibble....
I leave the rest to the other worthy commentors, but I do take exception to the outrageous claim that, "In the long history of women's inequality, it is difficult to name almost anything more anti-woman, dehumanizing and degrading than the veil." Apparently Mr. Prager has not researched Chinese foot-binding, to create the perfect three-inch 'lotus bud' foot that was excruciatingly painful to walk upon but apparently very desirable. He also seems not to recall genital mutilation, including clitoridectomies, which STILL go on in some parts of Africa and the Near East. The Victorian corset ruined the health of countless women who could not take a deep breath if their lives depended on it.

While this does not mean wearing a veil (compulsory or not) is NOT an issue (it is, and it's an issue about freedom of expression), it is foolish to knee-jerk claim that wearing a veil is absolutely and always monstrous and degrading thing. It can be, perhaps, in certain contexts. But let's think: a veil can be taken off. Wearing a veil causes no lasting effects on a woman's ability to move, or think, or enjoy healthy relationships. As for whether or not it's degrading, I find the hypersexualized 'thong hanging out of jeans and boobs on display' look to be JUST as degrading, and even more dehumanizing, as countless young girls persist in believing their only value, the only thing they have to offer, is T&A.

These are opposite ends of the spectrum of dress: 'too' concealed or 'too' revealed. The issue is not for society to argue, but (how's this for a shock) the individual WOMAN to have a right to make up her own mind.

If Mr Prager finds 'concealment' so disturbing and dehumanizing, I can only presume he's against those baggy bathing suits young men wear, and FOR the speedo....?

Context this, pointdexter
Thanks, labourlawyer. Context is indeed critical in understanding (well, interpreting) Prager's diatribes. Is it surprising that the subtext would be self-serving and vindictive?

Those of you with scruples against trolling should note that Prager's entire piece is an "ad-hominem" attack on this Yoffie fella, disguised (veiled, even) as a much more pedestrian and typical attack on Islamic traditions (ho-hum). Prager invites personal attacks because he delivers them. The pile of poo he usually writes (badly) may also have something to do with it.

And don't you worry what that nasty krystalbird says about you. I suspect he is in fact a small glass ornament.

somewhat pathetic on Prager's part
laborlawyer is right that it is a good speech. Although like ex-Wyomingite I am not crazy about that use of the word "respect." If by respect one means to put beyond criticism then there is no requirement in a free society to respect such a decision. If one means merely to tolerate or allow, then, of course we should respect the choices that people make, except when security risks are too great or direct harm is done to others.

As for Prager's charge of slander, he made a mistake in writing an embarassingly bad column in which he falsely accused Ellison of being the first person to substitute a different book for the Christian bible. He is still pretending it was not the choice of the Koran that offended him, but there have been no columns about the dangerous nature of those jewish congressmen who used the Hebrew bible for the ceremonial swearing in picture.

Prager is reduced to arguing that saying that he said Ellison is more dangerous is false because what he actually sais is that what Ellison did is more dangerous. Are the terrorists more dangerous based on something other than what they do? Silly.

The James Gang wore veils, too
To those who think that veils are acceptable attire in public: would you support veils being appropriate when visiting a bank, a liquor store, or a 7-11 at 3:00 AM? We are all used to veils being worn in those places -- except we used to call them "masks," and they were worn by crooks.

I agree with Prager that the veil degrades women; but if a religious group wants veils, they can have them. But they must not be worn in public places of business (think banks) where a person's identity must be knowable. This is why a veil on a driver's license photo is absolutely unacceptable: the purpose of such a photo is identification. Imagine using your driver's license photo as ID when buying booze, and you get the picture: the veil makes it just about impossible to tell if the person involved is male or female, much less who it is.

Rabbi Eric Yoffie and Liberal Values
Lying, Moral Relativism and Cowardly Capitulating. Yeah, he's a Liberal!

you know
There have been valid opinions on the veil question in this thread, but the rest from Prager was equivocation. His position on the oath was wrong as was his understanding of the true nature of tradition. His actions show that he would throw his values to wind rather than agree with anything Moslem.

Mathew
One doesn't need to know Yiddish to tell you are being a Putz.

Have a good Rosh Hashanah.

Funny
The same people who get all P-C about veils and hijabs and burquas are the same ones who’d turn around and scream bloody murder about a Catholic woman wearing a mantilla in Church.

Not knowing that the mantilla is worn briefly (for about an hour), voluntarily (I’ve never been in a church that made me wear one), and doesn’t cover the face or even the hair (most are made of very fine, delicate lace).

For some women, wearing a veil is – in fact – a choice. But for a vast majority of women, the veil is a symbol of their oppression and their status as second-class citizens or pieces of property.

As the imam in Australia recently said, women who don’t cover their head and faces are pieces of “uncovered meat” who deserve to be abused, beaten, or sexually assaulted.

It is hypocrisy when people who claim to love liberty, feminism, and tolerance turn a blind eye to the very real oppression faced by millions of Muslim women throughout most of the world.

Unlike other religions, they have limited choice and cannot choose to leave their religion for fear of death – just ask Lina Joy.

Yet our liberals, feminists, and politically correct elite don’t give a rat’s behind about women who are REALLY suffering, preferring rather to complain about abortion restrictions, bashing stay-at-home mothers, and freaking out about global warming.

Britney's Buldges
Somebody PLEASE slap a burqa on Britney Spears.

Interesting tidbit
Two things
One of the Muslim women I knew in Turkey "chose" not to wear a head scarf. But, in Turkey when I was there, western attire was encouraged. They actually discriminated against the women who wore scarves from working in the public sector (banks etc.)

A trip to Egypt was an eye-opener. Lots of veils, and lots of store windows with spike heels, and sexy lingerie...who knew?

Ellison's oath?
If you a member of a murderous, lying, thieving, and blasphemous cult, and you are elected to office, then you should be taking your oath on the self-serving screed that your murderous, lying, thieving, and blasphemous cult reveres and not on a Bible revered only by others. The practice of Taqiyya already makes the oath of a Mohammedan worthless anyway.

The lesson here is that good people should defeat candidates from murderous, lying, thieving, and blasphemous cults.

As for the veil, no one with whom I interact may conceal their identity. But it's a free country: if you accept your cultural definition, you are free to express that; I, meanwhile, am free to shun and denounce you as the tool of a murderous, lying, thieving, and blasphemous cult and to urge your prompt return to the God-cursed third-world hellhole whence you came.

TTSSYF
"I strongly believe that if we don't fight political correctness and start putting societal pressure on Muslims now to "assimilate or get out," then we are headed for a more violent confrontation down the road. The only reason they lay low in this country right now is their lack of numbers and the fact that they realize that Americans are still pissed off about 9/11."

_______
I couldn't agree more. As a matter of practical necessity, the muslims here are practicing Jihad simply by 'laying low' and building their numbers.

Read Deb Schlussel - she's actually been able to infiltrate some of their gatherings in Michigan and she'll tell you most of those Islamists are just as radical as any of the Wahabis of Saudi Arabia. And because of her efforts, there's no doubt she's on their hit list.

ex-Wyomingite
You read way too much into what I wrote.

Where did I say you lost your right to doubt or question? That's exactly the kind of nonsense that makes pluralism impossible.

My point was about respecting the rights of people with whom I disagree, not that I or anyone else loses the right to disagree. As I said, I too find the veil dehumanizing to women. I also find the mechitza and other practices of orthodox Jews dehumanizing to women.

One can disagree with someone else's religious practices while respecting their right to engage in them voluntarily. That's all Rabbi Yoffe was saying.

For the record, I should note that I reread Yoffe's speech and Prager's column on Ellison, and Yoffe did indeed misquote Prager. I continue to strongly disagree with Prager on the Ellison issue, but he is entitled to be quoted correctly. Yoffe owes him an apology.

lol phylo
Thank you Phylo for giving me pains in my side from laughing so hard at every ridiculous comment you make! The hours at work go so much faster.

Charles Martel...
...Don't hold back,man! Tell us what you really think.

Charles Martel
No one with whom you interact may conceal their identity your highness? Is that something you learned from your father Pippin II of Herstal, or is that just a general Frankish custom from the 8th century.

when & when not to wear the veil

Wearing the veil at religious services is completely acceptable, as it is an expression of humble diginity in a sensitive environment in the presence of God. Extending the practice to normal situations is unacceptable in my opinion unless the person who is doing so is a cleric or of a religious order. I think that the importance of the separation of church and state applies to social situations which are not intended to be of a religious nature and which do not occur on the sabbath.

I maintain that muslim social mores have established themselves to empower men over women and that the men feel that imposing western values on their society threatens that power. It doesn't get much simpler.

Furthermore, the idea that a women who is minimally dressed encourages unbridled lust in the minds of muslim men says nothing for their sense of respect for other individuals, male or female, or their ability to reign in their libido when seeing women who are so dressed. They appear therefore to be uncivilised and primitive in nature.

Muslims and religious extremists should get it through their heads that girls who dress in subtle or suggestive ways are an acceptable form of light entertainment and they do not object to that fact because they are having just as much fun. Fun is not evil. Their is nothing irreligious about it -- religion has nothing to do with it. In fact, it is good training for the art of self control and mutual respect. Enjoy the girls, but observe the golden rule -- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."



Charles "The Hammer" Martel--
You do have the right to state your opinions about veils. However, my opinion (also a right) is that any man who would verbally attack a strange woman over her clothing needs to mind his own business, and probably is in danger of a severe "whoopin'" by the woman's brothers, husband, father, etc.


Another useful idiot on the left
This guy is no Rabbi. He is a fool's fool. He and Jimmy Carter should share a room at the asylum. He is an embarrassment to Jews and America. Liberal moral relativism has poisoned his heart and his brain. I'm certain he does not speak for the majority of Jews. He's just another one of those leftist scumbags who are either too stupid or insane to see the damage they are causing our religion and our country.

Scorn, defiance, slight regard, contempt
I commend you, MikeR, for taking the trouble to look up my namesake, but no, I will not interact socially with anyone hiding his face. If they must interact with me, they must reveal their faces.

And no, "gee", I don't assault Mohammedans. My family's history has taught me to avoid them altogether, as very few with whom we have ever done business, either partners or employees, were not literal thieves.

I dare say that subsequent events have not improved their status in my estimation. Just as I'll never forget the horrific crimes perpetrated six years ago today in New York, Virginia, and Pennsylvania, neither will I ever forget the dancing afterward in Middle Eastern streets.

dovenator
I hope there's a third bed in that cell for the Bishop of Breda.

TTSSYF
I missed this comment of yours until someone else quoted it.

"I strongly believe that if we don't fight political correctness and start putting societal pressure on Muslims now to "assimilate or get out," then we are headed for a more violent confrontation down the road. The only reason they lay low in this country right now is their lack of numbers and the fact that they realize that Americans are still pissed off about 9/11"

Very funny. We should fight poltical correctness by putting societal pressure on people to act the way we want them to act. Because after all if we can't get people to act in the politically correct way, then political correctness will just get out of hand.

Legitimizing the veil
Responding to Labor Lawyer's comment:
"Prager's escalating attacks on those of us finding religious support for our liberal worldviews in the Reform movement"

It is the Liberal worldviews that bear criticism. For example, Laborlawyer approvingly quotes Yoffe as saying to a group of Muslims:

"The dialogue will not be one way, of course. You will teach us about Islam and we will teach you about Judaism. We will help you to overcome stereotyping of Muslims, and you will help us to overcome stereotyping of Jews. We are especially worried now about anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. Anti-Semitism is not native to Islamic tradition, but a virulent form of it is found today in a number of Islamic societies."

Guess what, Anti Semitism is native to Islamic tradition and, by saying otherwise, Yoffe is showing his historical ignorance. Muhammad himself personally beheaded between 600 and 900 Jews in Medina in one incident alone. How Christlike! His audience must have been laughing inside at this fool. Moreover, violent hatred and ill treatment of non-Muslims in general is native to Islam and is enshrined in the core of Islam. Read Chapter 9 of the Koran. Meanwhile, Yoffe is still worried about holocaust denial, as if the Jewish Holocaust is the only thing that ever happened. With attitudes such as this, there is no way to keep the next holocaust from happening, regardless of whether the victims are Jews or others.

The problem of Ellison being sworn in on a Koran has a further dimension. He is being sworn in on a book that explicitly orders him to do everything in his power to bring about global Sharia law and allows him to lie about his intentions ("Taquiyah")

My advise: Want interfaith dialogue? Fine. Let's have it in Saudi Arabia and we'll bring our Christian and Jewish Bibles and excercise our right to criticize Mohammed as part of the dialogue. Until this is possible, there is no meaningful interfaith dialogue!

Dennis Pragers Article
Dennis Prager is a giant in the current world of communications. It takes real fortitude to stand up for basic principles and I admire him for putting his reputation on the line.

Our current situation in America, with regard to public knowledge of what is going on or what our historical perspective should be, is weak to pathetic.

Thank God for men like Dennis.

Kim Martiny

LON
"We should fight poltical correctness by putting societal pressure on people to act the way we want them to act. Because after all if we can't get people to act in the politically correct way, then political correctness will just get out of hand."

What a classic example of incoherent leftist ramblings.

Some questions for you.

(1) How is our society improved by allowing Muslims to immigrate here? From what did America suffer or from what does it currently suffer that we need to allow Muslims into the country?

(2) Muslims currently comprise no more than about 2% of the American population. What percentage would you consider to be the maximum you would want? 10%? 20%? More than 50%? If not, why not? And what makes your limit, if you have one, any better than my limit, which is zero?

Mr. Phylo
One of the basic fallacies in the text I use is, "False dilemma." You have presented one. Either we can critically examine all ideas and remain "liberal," or we will be totalitarian. My post indicated that some ideas are deadly and actions flow from them. In order to survive (literally) societies must reject and prohibit some ideas. Oh, we cannot stop the flow of ideas by looking inside heads, of course. However, ideas do lead to action and for that we have laws. For example, you cannot legally espouse the violent overthrow of the U.S. government. You suggest that we may pose those ideas, but, as I said earlier, ideas lead to actions. That's the problem with the with the hothouse "liberalism" you suggest. In the withering sun of actions, you will be killed by those who take action based on their ideas. As much as I allow the "free exchange of ideas" in the classroom, ideas lead to actions. I would not hesitate to uncover and expose any ideas that will lead to murder, for example. And that is not totalitarianism. And your false dilemma is now evident.

Maybe U can figure out this out....
because I can't. Has anyone noticed (because I sure have, it's been as obvious as the nose on one's face) since 9/11/2001 that liberals who haven't one good word to say about Christianity or Christians (and especially those in position of church leadership) suddenly seem to have become sympathizers and defenders of Islam? Why would ANY liberal be sympathetic to the hajib? And Charles Martel, I wonder how many of the liberal posters to this column (probably none, I'll reckon) even know the significance of your namesake from the 8th century. The Battle of Tours is probably the most important battle fought in the last 1,500 years that Americans ought to know about and don't.

laborlawyer
Nice to see that you reversed yourself on Yoffee by placing honesty above ego. That speaks volumes.

YOFFEE
Yoffee is a disgrace to our religion and he does not speak for me. In his quest to be loved by the enemies of western civilization, he will comprimise our values and our intersts. He should be widely criticized for the coward that he is.

Standshisground
Of course we've noticed it. It's particularly evident when you read extreme left-wing websites, where you will see a steady flow of Christian-bashing articles and a deafening silence when it comes to criticizing Islam. In fact, you're more likely to read articles sympathetic to the "plight" of Muslims.

It was truly baffling to me how purported "liberals" could turn such a blind eye to a so-called religion that is so anti-freedom and anti-woman, until I realized that the extreme Left are not true liberals but rather collectivists who hate America and are willing to use Muslims to help destroy it.

Their actions are accurately described by Lawence Auster's first (I think) law of liberalism (paraphrased): The more dysfunctional or backwards a culture or minority is, the worse the white West must be made to appear, in order for the two to appear equal. Thus, these Leftists must attack Western culture and attempt to tear it down while building up Islam, so that the huge discrepancy between the functionality of the two systems is not as obvious.

Charles Martel
So your name actually is Charles Martel? Then why do you respond as Thomas Beaufort? Are you now the Duke of Exeter? You see, in my dealings with TH I have corresponded with Jimmy Carter, George Bush, Geronimo, Robert E. Lee and many other historical figures; so hiding ones identity is commonplace. Now that you clarified that it’s a visual matter of facial recognition I can see that you’re not a complete kook.

SAD TO SEE...

There is a young girl at my daughters school. She is always dressed frumpy, always wearing her slave "head scarf".

She stands out like a sore thumb, always alone, always without a smile. She has no friends at school, no one to hang out with, no one to call on the phone.

I don't always agree with my own daughters styles, but I would quickly see if she was unhappy and friendless.

The Liberal-Progressives support this crap, just like they want to leave jungle tribes "free" to kill, maim, and rape, their women. They don't even want these jungle tribes to be offered "Free Healthcare", education, or immunizations.

Just sad.


Dennis is Important
Prager makes a stand on this, and I agree with him.

Yes, wearing a headscarf is demeaning to women. (Or really anyone who wears one - unless you're in a sand storm or 130 degree heat). Why? Because covering a face makes a person unidentifiable. People without a faces have their humanity taken away from them. They might as well be a robot. Yes, that's just an opinion, but it's a thought-through opinion and makes more sense than any other argument I've heard.

The voluntary aspect is meaningless to me. I find voluntary veil-wearing as respectable as the act of voluntarily cutting oneself.

Is it totalitarian of me to say that? Is it totalitarian to make such a judgment?

The answer is "no, it is not totalitarian of me to have, give, and even sell that opinion." Totalitarian would be to say "I forbid everyone who I have power over to wear a veil. I will rip the veil off every person I see." There's no forcing here. Just the judgments of actions. I'm thankful for the opportunity to live in a country that allows me to have opinions and debate them with others.

Sometimes The Covering Fits
I'll only agree that wearing a facing covering is appropriate if the person that's wearing it is Madeline Albright.

many veils
Any man or woman in this country should wear a veil if they so desire. But Islam wears many veils and many faces -- while shrouding its women from scrutiny, Islam carries on its global war of domination behind the tranparent veil of being a ''peaceful'' religion.
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