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Tuesday, June 26, 2007
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Rape of a Name Is Also Rape
by Dennis Prager
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The rape of a name can be as vicious a crime and as destructive an act as the rape of a body. Sometimes the rape of a body is worse, sometimes the rape of a name is worse. But they are both rapes. And morally likening the two is in no way meant to lessen the horror of rape; it is meant only to heighten awareness of the horror of intentionally destroying the name of an innocent person.

These words are written in the aftermath of the destruction of three young men's names by a lying woman whose name is still hidden by The New York Times and other major newspapers whose commitment to truth is not as strong as their commitment to political correctness.

Upon first hearing a comparison of name-rape to body-rape, most people are likely to recoil. But upon reflection, it becomes clear that the two are morally comparable. In fact, I have had women listeners to my radio show call and e-mail me to say that they have been raped -- one woman had been gang raped -- and felt they were better able to go on with their lives than men they loved who had been falsely accused of rape or molestation.

If you are a woman and this seems far-fetched, imagine that a man you love -- such as your father, brother, husband or son -- were publicly accused of a rape he had not committed. Imagine the pain he and your family would endure. Why is that pain not comparable to the pain suffered by at least some women who are raped?

"Which office do I go to to get my reputation back?" That was the question the secretary of labor in the Reagan administration, Raymond Donovan, asked, after being acquitted of all charges for larceny and fraud.

Where, indeed, does one go after having one's reputation unjustly ruined?

A police officer recently acquitted of charges of molesting two boys told the press that he will never again be able to hug a child.

To this day, a decent human being named Clarence Thomas, who has become a major Supreme Court thinker, is identified by his political enemies with sexual harassment (of the most innocuous variety, even if true) and of having looked at pornography (along with the majority of other decent men in America), as if those charges define his life.

What do we have in life, after all, that is more valuable than our name and reputation? What do good people work hardest at maintaining, if not their good name?

The lying woman in the Duke lacrosse case, Crystal Mangum, raped three men. Generally speaking, it is meaningless to speak of women raping men's bodies; it is men who rape women's bodies. What women can rape is a man's name.

It is a symptom of the major sexism of our time -- against men (see Christine Hoff Sommers' "The War Against Boys" for a detailed discussion of this sexism) -- that not only is the rape of men's reputations not considered anywhere near as serious as the rape of a woman's body, but the women who perpetrate such destruction are protected by feminist, politically correct news media. That is why, to this day, The New York Times and most other liberal newspapers refuse to publish Crystal Mangum's name, let alone advocate that she be tried or punished for her cruelty.

The Talmud, the set of books of Jewish law and philosophy that rank in Judaism second in importance only to the Torah, says, "Whoever humiliates his friend in public is considered as if he has shed his blood." That is why some rabbis call undeserved public shaming "emotional murder."

That was written nearly 2,000 years ago. The lack of interest by elite America in even identifying, let alone punishing, a woman who "emotionally murdered" three young men proves that those who believe in the inevitability of moral progress frequently delude themselves.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Rape of a Language
So, does anyone remember when the word "rape" had a clear, unambiguous meaning? I do, barely.

What we have now is an all-purpose metaphor. It can mean environmental pollution, disrespect for cultural heritage, or any manner of insensitivity. I even remember the word being used in a baseball player's contract dispute.

There is nothing we can do now to retrieve the word, so let's move on. Can someone suggest a new word to describe that crime which we used to call rape?

Sadly, that's
not the only word that needs a replacement. I'm not sure the drive on my new computer has enough unused space to record all the words that have been similarly diminished.

the 3 jocks not rapist, just sleazeballs
Not exactly the kind of guys you want your daughter dating.
In a rush to rightly remove the stigma of "rapist", let's not go so far as to restore their reputation to pristine innocence. That would be a lie, too. They were not nice people. There was that night, and a history of: underage drinking, strippers, calls by neighbors to police. Not rapists, but the distinction is more quantitative than qualitative. The fool described in Solomon's Proberbs.

None of the above subtracts from Dr. Prager's point, which is also true.

seizing the word, “rape”
Conic asks: ‘does anyone remember when the word "rape" had a clear, unambiguous meaning?’

Well, I, for one, do not. From its earliest use in English, the primary meaning of “rape” was “seizure” (from the Latin, rapere, “to seize.” (cf. raptor.) Its later meaning of unlawful sexual congress (often with some connotation of seizure as well) was never completely unambiguous which is why so many jurisdictions avoid using the word in their statutes.

e.g., the rape of the Sabine women
The rape of the Sabine women referred to the seizure of the lasses and not to the subsequent liaisons with the Roman lads whether consensual or not.

Similarly, when one reads a novel from Victorian times (and the usage lasted until WWII) of sets of parents approvingly watching their children “make love,” they are watching fairly innocuous courting rather than anything which involves naughty bits.

Men as Victims
Because Mr. Prager is so pro-man and anti-woman (he is all for Girls, but let them become women and he's outa there), I am not surprised to hear him equate name-calling with physical violence. This is much like Rep. John Lewis (D-GA) equating the failure of Whitey to give African Americans everything they want this very minute with the Holocaust, or the hippies screaming Bush is Hitler!

All three of these examples indicate the attempt to change the wreaking of one's will on helpless others by means of physical power into a word meaning "You were mean to me."

Ruining someone's reputation by name calling is not a nice thing to do, and the person who does it should be severely punished. However, hurt feelings compare in no wise with a ruined body. Hurt feelings are something the hurt person can rise above and repair in many ways. A damaged body is beyond that person's control regardless of her (or his) management of feelings.

Yes, the word rape used to have a more innocuous meaning. The word awful used to mean filled with awe; it does not mean that now. Likewise its replacement, awesome, has been cheapened beyond recognition by careless use. That doesn't change the fact that there is no moral equivalence between a woman whose body has been damaged and violated by the power of a man, and a man whose feelings have been hurt by having been called a name.

Except, perhaps, in the minds of men who don't think rape is really that big a deal....

My nominee for most ill-used word:
HERO. As in s/he was a HERO to live what s/he went thru. As if they had a choice.

So many "heroes" so little time...
So many 'words' so little time...

Did you all hear about the judge who refused to let the prosecutor USE the word 'rape' in court because that constituted a "legal definition?"

AudiR10
The ruination of reputation doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with "hurt feelings", and I'm not quite sure how you came to the conclusion that it does. Would you explain, please?


Etymology isn't the point
All this discussion about the degradation totally ignores the point of the article. The point of the article is well made. The semantics are not relevant even though the discussions of them are interesting in themselves. The travesty of this whole non-case far exceeds any discussion of word usage or origin!

As to the boys not having such good character. I would have to say that if the woman was indeed raped there would be no discussion allowed about her character! How come we have this double standard? I know it is not popular to intimate "boys will be boys" today - but the fact is that their "partying" activities are hardly a gauge of their entire life and character.

Few of us male or female get through those years without engaging in activities not generally considered acceptable in polite company! Youthful indiscretions are par for the course in most young people, male or female and hardly serves to define the remainder of their lives and over all character. One mistake should never be used as a basis to mark a person's character for life!

None of us have lived without sin - the bible makes that clear in the passage that says "all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory." Further we should not be looking down others as though we ourselves are sinless. Jesus said, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Come on now lets give these young men the compassion and understanding they deserve. We need not condone what they were doing, they chose to put themselves in a situation where such an accusation could be easily made. But we must not condemn them to a life time of shame either!
That I believe is the entire point of Prager's article. And save the word games for the English grammar class.

Also,
The rape of a woman being the vicious crime that it is, how less vicious is it to be falsely accused of such an heinous act?

I think, AudiR10, that you actually proved Prager's point with your post.

Ahh correction
I meant to say "degradation of the word rape" in my comments.

word games?
In defence of both myself an those others who wish either to clarify usage or to reinforce points, it is hardly a mere matter of syntax or grammar to challenge the meanings of terms. When human intercourse depends so much on fine distinctions, when our entire system of rational argument is predicated on using terminology accurately, when language itself is (in the words of Kraus) the very mother of thought, and when the basis of the article under discussion is concerned with words used to harm, I should think that etymology and semantics are exactly the point.

Newspeak
Even the word "rape" is undergoing change in our society. Recently in Nebraska, a Judge refused to let the word "rape" be uttered in a rape trial. Nor was "sexual assault" used. I believe he did allow "non-consensual sexual relations." I guess a robbery is now an "unreimbursed transfer of property."

Words should have meaning. When we change the meaning of words to take into account the sensibilities of the permanently disgruntled, we cheapen our language.

Rape?
No rape was committed! There was one attempted though, by Mike Nifong!

It truly numbs the mind,
the number of people who cry "These boys were hardly saints!" Their sainthood (or lack thereof) ISN'T the issue by a long-shot. The issue is that they were FALSELY ACCUSED of a vicious crime!

They may not be saints, but neither are they rapists!

I should have said
that they may not be saints but, MORE IMPORTANTLY, they aren't rapists!

justice
Semantics aside, the purposeful destruction of someones reputation for political gain or monetary gain is a crime as worthy of punishment as say a nonviolent rape. As such Nifong should be convicted and sentenced to 30 years in prison. That's what would have happened to those boys had they been convicted. His crimes are worse than the woman, she was on drugs and was confused and may well have been raped by her taxi driver or someone else. That being said she does deserve some jail time.
That the boys weren't saints hardly matters at all. The 88 Duke professors should each have to pay a 50 to 100 thousand dollar fine and should be made to make a public appology for what they did.

Rocker
Don't you wish that there were Nifong in your life to set you straight? Now you are just wandering somewhere outside of human norms. It's about justice regardless of what law one looks at. Our nation is based on Judeo-Christian values whether you like it or not and that is a point of reference chosen by Prager.

Public challange to Dennis Prager
What about the rape of the name of Joe Wilson.

Prager and all of his talk-show buddies have been raping the name of Joe Wilson for years.

They've all repeatedly called him a liar (and all sorts of other names) when the man never once lied. I challenge anyone on this website to find the exact words, the exact quote, that constitutes a lie by Joe Wilson. I can guarantee you that you will not find that quote.

Prager loves to talk about how Hollywood has no moral courage. I'd like to see Prager demonstrate some moral courage by apologizing for raping the name of Joe Wilson, and to call on his fellow talk show hosts to apologize as well–– maybe even have him on air to do so personally.

Come on Prager, Let's see how morally courageous you are.

Phylo out.

The Rape of a Name Is Also Rape
Dennis,

I differ with you only in this context:

These Duke Gentlemen were gang raped.

First raped by the young stripper,
then raped by Nifong,
then raped by the city of Durham,
then raped by the faculty of Duke University,
then raped by…
and the list goes on.

RAPE OF OUR NAMES
Illegals rape our names, stealing our SS numbers - "only"
TEN MILLION OF THEM (gvmt stats, and no action).
IF 10 million work at jobs, which require Soc. Sec. number, AT LEAST 5 TIMES MORE work for cash...
So, 10 million plus 5 times 10 million - equals, say, 60 million of illegals.

C. Stevenson....
I would not have a problem at all with my daughter dating anyone of these young men. Magnum should serve a prison term for her lying. She will make news again someday and it won't be good. Nifong is finished and hopefully will be sued and taught a harsh lesson. These young men will move on, it won't be easy, but they will do ok. Come on, let's check the computers on anyone answering here. Imagine what we would find!

Public Rape
On reflection, I should have stated,

They were not secretly accosted,
but publicly raped with millions
standing around just watching.

The New York Times
Its wholehearted fealty to the iron laws of political correctness is a reason the Times is bleeding circulation and money as well as relevance. Once respected, it is now derided as a wearisome liberal mouthpiece. This latest Sulszberger is a powerful argument against nepotism.

AudiR10
Mr. Prager is not a misogynist, as you seem to imply. I have heard Mr. Prager talk about the unjust treatment of raped women in Muslim nations a lot. He is unmistakably grieved by mistreatment of women. I can virtually guarantee that if perchance proof were to come out later that the three had indeed raped the stripper, Mr. Prager would be all over them like boiling oil.

not the same thing AT ALL
As a rape victim myself, I cannot stand by and read these two things as equal. Those three Duke lacrosse players will always be known as "those three innocent young men who were maligned by that gold-digging stripper". They are not only "innocent", but now heralded as martyrs. The year (and only that, a year) that they went through is lamentable but it is nothing compared to a lifetime of recalling the forceful man whom you begged to stop but would not until he had had his "fun". "Fun" that resulted in conception (I placed "our" daughter in adoption). Even if you can equate the "rape of a name" to the rape of a woman's body (which I maintain that you cannot), a person can always change his name. I can never change the past.

Watering down a word?
Some of you accuse Prager of devaluing the word “rape” and at the same time say, “Well, they may not have committed actual rape,...but they did drink underage and look at a stripper...”

Wow, look up the word hypocrite as soon as possible!

Goebbels is alive and well
The only problem with the dragging in of Joe Wilson's name by Phylo is, Joe Wilson did lie, more than once. Those lies are well documented, but evidently there are those who do not wish to acknowledge them. Perhaps you could try saying, "The sun rises in the West," over and over again. Who knows, someone might believe you.

ATTENTION PAUL
Excuse me? Exactly what would you qualify as "non-violent" rape? Is there a soothing way to force yourself on top of and into a woman against her will?

areyoukidding
You, and some others, may always think of those 3 men as "those three innocent young men", but there are many who will always look at them and think "they must have done something" or "they were asking for it" (see above posts for proof).

Rape is a horrible crime and I'm very sorry for what happened to you. However, I bet you can walk down the street right now without dozens of people whispering or giving you dirty looks...that was Prager's basis for comparison.

Only A Man..
Only a man could write such rubbish. Shall I compare actual castration to the intellectual castration that afflicts so many of today's male liberal dandies? Forgive me, but I cannot be so shallow.

Phylo
Just curious, is Superman a bad guy in the alternate reality you live in? Did your world's version of Ted Kennedy actually SAVE a girl from drowning?

How can we communicate with others in your world?

examples, people
M. Prager gives the the three Duke students, as well as Justice Thomas, as examples of men who’ve had their names besmirched. I’ve just reread the article and cannot find any justification for supposing that he is intends to demean the pain and suffering of victims (male, sometimes, I may add, as well as female) of real rape in his calling attention to the more metaphorical crimes against those whose names are ruined. There are many people in and out of prisons who have been unjustly prosecuted and condemned, but who did not have the resources to repudiate the charges brought against them by credible liars. Imagine what it must be for an innocent but impoverished person, unjustly prosecuted, say, for child-abuse, who is obliged for the rest of his or her life to suffer the further indignities of being listed on a register of perverts, and of being continually taunted with undeserved epithets, in addition to the not insignificant physical sufferings which prison inmates must endure.

Black Dog
"rape victims also suffer the social castigation of "she probably asked for it," "if she had just stayed home," or, "that's what happens to women who go to bars..."

You just proved my point...and Prager's.

areyoukidding
A person who gets drunk of their own free will, and makes bad decisions would qualify as a non-violent rape vs a rape victim who was violently assulted or had a gun or knife held to their throat is what I meant. Violent rape should qualify for the death penalty, the other a jail sentence.

Nifong is a criminal
I want to know why Nifong isn't facing criminal charges for violating those boys' civil rights. Are there really no federal civil rights laws applicable to this case? Or is it simply that white boys have no civil rights in this society?

0k, try the converse on rape...
areyoukidding writes: Excuse me? Exactly what would you qualify as "non-violent" rape? Is there a soothing way to force yourself on top of and into a woman against her will?

---------

So thus a woman who has been slipped a "roofie" or similar drug and isn't able to resist (or even know really what is going on) isn't raped?

The woman who is drunk and/or asleep isn't raped if she isn't able to violently resist?

I am not aware of any requirement that the use of physical force be employed for a rape to have occurred....

oh, by the way
Since the PAul supporters don’t seem to be fully awake yet...
If Ron Paul were President, virgins would be able to walk down the streets of any city, naked and carrying gold bricks, without any ill effect.

(Apologies for the typos in my previous post: it’s after midnight here, and I have one eye on Wimbledon where, at the moment, Hendon is 11-10 in the last set.)

False accusations WORSE THAN rape.
First, the feminists are always chanting that rape is an act of violence and has nothing to do with sex.

And in strictly clinical/physical terms, when you have a woman who has had all kinds of sexual intercourse with 20, 30, 40, 50 or more different men, the physical nature of the rape isn't really all that different than her consensual sexual antics. Remember that infamous Texas Governor who compared rape to rain and told women to 'relax and enjoy it'?

99% of the injuries that a sexually experienced woman suffers when raped are PSYCHOLOGICAL. It is the violation of her body, not the sexual intercourse, that is the bigger issue. And there is a reason why many rape victims refer to it as having been attacked.

Now, if one accepts that the psychological injuries of a rape victim are greater than the physical ones - the psychologal injuries needing far more time to heal - then one needs to look at the manner in which they are addressed.

And how do we address rape victims -- NOW, not 40 years ago. We have an entire support network ranging from trained councilors right on to laws against printing thier names.

And how do we address those falsely accused - by still not believing that it wasn't their fault. (Note the relationship to how rape victims were viewed this way 40 years ago?) When the average state trooper runs the drivers' license of the Duke Three somewhere out in East OshKosh Nowhere, accused rapist will come back.

Thus, I argue that, in 2007, to be falzely accused of rape is far worse than to be raped.


Pirate
I didn't say they weren't raped. I make the case for a harsher punishment for physical violence.

They're Out!
The Talking Points on this subject by MoveOn, Puffington Poof and Communist UnderGround are out. They are already being spewed by RocksinHead, Phylo and other Moonbats.

Falsely accusing someone...
is called slander, not rape.

A civil trial is required to determine the financial penalty for slander. Only the most totalitarian governments consider slander a criminal offense. The first amendment to the U.S. Constitution protects citizens who say just about anything about anyone.

Rape on the other hand is almost universally recognized as a sadistic, violent, and barbaric crime.

Dollar Signs
You made some excellent points in your posts! I especially like what you had to say about people judging the character of others. Most of us would not want the darkest (and I do not consider what these boys did to be all that dark, by the way) moment of our life or our worst choice to be the measure of our character.

I have to laugh at those who comment that these young men were engaging in underage drinking (oh the horror....underage drinking among college students), had hired a stripper (more than just the Lacrosse team must be hiring strippers as there seems to be an awful lot of them in this country)....and the best one is that they have naughty stuff on their computers (again there must be a market and I doubt it is just the Lacrosse team). Come on, people. Are you always so harsh in your judgment, or is that just reserved for affluent whites?

One of the judgmental ones claimed that these men will rebound, and that is a true indication of their character. They will rebound because they have fortitude and strength and they refused to be crushed by an out of control prosecutor, a hateful, prejudicial faculty, and all manner of bloodthirsty people around the country just waiting for these "bad boys" to get theirs.

What I am seeing is a group of people who cannot simply say....I rushed to judgment, I was wrong. No, they have to start in with their sorry song about underage drinking, stripper-hiring, etc. Where are your harsh words for the false accuser? Obviously she is not a saint either. Why are you not holding her up for public scorn?

You seem to say that these boys were engaging in illegal drinking, and hiring a stripper, so they had this name smearing coming. Let's put the shoe on the other foot--a woman takes her clothes off for men who have been drinking alcohol--has she put herself in a precarious situation? Does she deserve to be raped? Most sane people would say that she does not deserve to be raped. But, by your logic....what is the difference?

Works both ways
Maybe it your father, brother, or son was falsely accused and you went through a horrendous time like these young men and their families, you may have a different perspective as well.

What Nifong did was malicious and vile. Can you at least admit to that?

A Concerned Father
My son has just been accused of rape. The girl is lying to cover her butt because her boyfriend found out they had sex. Her false accusations has torn up my family. My wife (his step mother) is so torn up she sits and weeps for him. I feel as if my family has been raped: we can never regain what has been stolen from us.

At this point, it is only an accusation. The police are still investigating although it happened a couple of months ago. Where can my son go to get back his good name? He has never had so much as a speeding ticket.

All you out there with your pompous attitude about how men aren't victims when falsely accused should just shutup. You have no concept.

a woman's two cents
areyoukidding: I am truly sorry you were raped. I hope you are doing OK.

A woman's two cents:
I was falsely accused a few years ago, by a disgruntled subordinate at work, of several illegal actions which would have ruined my reputation, opened me and the company to legal action, and cost me my dream job, had she been believed. (Thank God I had fair minded people around me, and she lost her job instead.)

It would be hard to describe the depth of the effect this slander had on me: the rage, the fear, the sense of outrage and violation. I was actually hospitalized briefly from the emotional reaction.

"Name calling" doesn't begin to describe it, which is why Audi's comments - which I generally agree with - totally baffle me. The two can't be compared. If you'd asked me then, I would have said it felt **like rape**.

However, I wasn't raped. I wouldn't compare what I went through with what two women I know who actually were raped (and the poster above) went through.

Though I think the men, including Prager, are well-intentioned about describing the horrible injustice these men went through, and are still going through with their reputations forever tarnished, I think the poster above who talked about actual castration vs. symbolic castration got the general idea across pretty well.


turn2him
I am sorry for your son, and your family. I hope justice is done for him too.

Thanks
Thanks Violet for your concern. I can't go into detail because it's still under investigation and he hasn't been officially charge. But the pain such a false accusation causes is hard to explain. It rips at your heart.

Lie with dogs, yaddah
I agree with some posters who conveyed that all college kids under age drink, have smut on their computers, and hire strippers or go to strip clubs. I guess having a picnic and reading poetry by the pond is out of style for recreational activities.

Regardless of them being in the thick of typical immoral behavior or not, being falsely accused of rape in the manner of this circumstance is horrible. I feel bad for those guys, but, they will recover in time.

However, and I will say this, if you chose to live your recreational lifestyle that way (and we all are free to do so) you will have a much higher probability running the risk of being falsely accused of anything because there is always a Magnum around every corner waiting for schmoes to Nifong.


Wow!
Apparently, it doesn't really matter what the article was about.

Prager's point is that falsely accusing someone of rape is a vicious crime which CAN be comparable to SOME kinds of rape in it's EFFECTS.

All these straw men have no revelance. Rape can be anything from mutual drunken sex (which many consider to be rape) to a brutal violent crime. False accusations of rape can result in nothing at all, or serious prison time and inclusion on a list of sexual predators which can affect everything about your life from where you can live to where you can work.

All of you that change Prager's "sometimes", into an "always", and then change his examples to prove your own point are simpletons.

And the Bard said

Who steals my purse steals trash; ’tis something, nothing. ‘Twas mine, ’tis his, and has been slave to thousands; But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him And makes me poor indeed. Iago, Othello The Moore Of Venice, Act III Scene iii

question
cant men be raped in just the same way women can be by both men and women.

As for the prosecutor
.....If his punishment was as severe as the guys would have had, you would have to have three counts of (aggravated assault) filed against him.

Sounds like a life sentence to me, and would give any future (additional) prosecutors a lot to think about before considering they might polish up their resume on somebody else's back side.

about prosecutors
There are lots of guys like Nifong all over the country that get away with prosecutorial misconduct everyday because the cases they tried do not have the media attention the duke case got.

AudiR10, I normally agree
with you on most things, but I wanted to point out that this case could possibly have resulted in a lot more than hurt feelings for those three young men.
I am not minimizing rape but it cannot even begin to compare with years behind bars for something that they did not do.
And reputation damage IS quite difficult to overcome, especially in the professional world.

Quantifying rape...
Some of the characteristics of rape:

1. Violence perpetrated by a strong person on a victim who is weak and unable to defend themselves.
2. Rape causes a sense of helplessness and despair on the part of the victim.
3. Rape does irreparable, lifelong harm to the victim.
4. Rape has the potential to negatively impact every relationship for the rest of the victim’s life.

Does the "rape of a name" qualify as rape? YOU answer the question.

Prager goes left
I always get a sense of malicious delight when a conservative goes left, and Prager does that in this column. Conservative should remember that the expansion of "rape" from a legally defined act to cover just about anything someone might not like was initiated on the radical left back in the late 60s/early 70s. "Rape" acquired a meaning so ambiguous as to be almost useless. Now Prager comes along with a new category "name rape." I'm a liberal and I still think Prager's being ridiculous. Fernando's correct: what the alleged victim did was to make a false allegation that might qualify legally as "slander." "False accusation" is illegal.

So let's recognize that these poor boys were falsely accused, but hardly raped.

Also, I note with a liberal smirk (or is it a sneer?) that most morally upright, God-fearing Christian conservatives don't seem to have much of a problem with these boys and their fraternity hiring a stripper for their party. "Boys will be boys" is obviously a conservative saying. (Harvey Mansfield can put it in the next edition of his book "Manliness.")

Now for those of us who might live in the real world, it is reasonably clear that when a group of frat boys hire a stripper, there is probably a shared expectation on their part that maybe some of them will get lucky...

Just a few comments
Phylo, give it up. Your pseudo-intellect is tiresome.
AudiR10. Yeah, right. See Phylo above.
areyoukidding: I can't imagine what you've gone through. My daughter, too. It pained me to see Prager compare the two, but I think his point is, while overstated, intended to cause thought. I wouldn't compare the two, but I think he's accomplished what he wanted - thought. In any event, my prayers are with you and all others who have gone through that particular hell.

I, for one, would chose the slander of my name (and, of course, the millions of dollars in settlements) over my rape in a heartbeat.

Gestell
If you've concluded that the upright, God-fearing Christian conservative view is that "boys will be boys," you are not well informed. As usual, the liberal paints pictures in his (or her) mind and assumes they are photographs. You're just so intellectual that if you think it, it must be true.

Sneers right back at you, Gestell
Gestell sneers (or smirks), "Also, I note with a liberal smirk (or is it a sneer?) that most morally upright, God-fearing Christian conservatives don't seem to have much of a problem with these boys and their fraternity hiring a stripper for their party."

Let me go on the record and say I DO have a problem with it. Let me also go on the record and say I do NOT believe false accusations that could easily have cost these three men 20+ years in prison, apiece are appropriate for sleazy behavior.

Gestell further smirks (or sneers), "Now for those of us who might live in the real world, it is reasonably clear that when a group of frat boys hire a stripper, there is probably a shared expectation on their part that maybe some of them will get lucky..."

For those of you who've wondered how a serial womanizer who killed one of his mistresses while DUI gets returned to the Senate by smirking (or sneering) liberals, year after year after year
-- there's your answer.

Finally, Gestell sneers AND smirks, ""Rape" acquired a meaning so ambiguous as to be almost useless."

And, if you wondered why a party that tried to keep a man off SCOTUS over allegations of talking dirty, but defended to the death a POTUS hit with (at least) equally credible allegations of "legally defined rape" (on top of multiple instances of "legally defined" sexual harassment)
--there's your answer as well.


AudiR10 is a liberal windbag...
...and not a credible poster.

I see that AudiR10 has yet to respond to questions after throwing out some major accusations toward Prager...and belittling the plight of the three formerly accused Duke lacrosse players.

idiocy
The rape of a name is at best a metaphoric. What is the point of abusing language in this way? This is actually a kind of abuse of language which the left seems more guilty of, complaining for example about the rape of the environment. But there is no reason that one cannot argue that slandering people is a bad thing without turning it into rape. There is a perfectly good name for it, namely slander.

The unanswerable ?
Folks,

These kids will have to live with this all their lives. Where can they go to get their good names back ? I have no idea, but a good start, now that we've all had our say, is never bring up this topic again. If people don't stop talking about it, this (and I can't thing of an apropriate name for it) will never go away. We
really should put it to rest, once and for all.
It will not do for these young men to be constantly reminded of this "crime" for the rest of their lives.

Public challenge to Dennis Prager
What about the rape of the name of Joe Wilson.

Prager and all of his talk-show buddies have been raping the name of Joe Wilson for years.

They've all repeatedly called him a liar (and all sorts of other names) when the man never once lied. I challenge anyone on this website to find the exact words, the exact quote, that constitutes a lie by Joe Wilson. I can guarantee you that you will not find that quote.

Prager loves to talk about how Hollywood has no moral courage. I'd like to see Prager demonstrate some moral courage by apologizing for raping the name of Joe Wilson, and to call on his fellow talk show hosts to apologize as well–– maybe even have him on air to do so personally.

Come on Prager, let's see how morally courageous you are.

Phylo out.

to Rob
I've read the comments to me. Not very enlightening. They more or less amount to name-calling and the time honored "did so" argument. I notice that no one yet has been able to find the quote by Joe Wilson that constitutes a lie. That's because it does not exist.

So I'm challenging Prager to either find the quote, or recant his repeated accusations that Joe Wilson is a liar. I know he won't because the man has no integrity. Which particularly disgusts me because I've never heard anyone toot their own moral horn more than Dennis Prager. This phony needs to be exposed.


Prager is such an idiot!
Once again I wonder why in the hell do I read your articles! You are just so out of touch and retarded I can't handle it anymore.... Oh god have I learned my lesson.

This one's for you Rob
Icedog: Just curious, is Superman a bad guy in the alternate reality you live in? Did your world's version of Ted Kennedy actually SAVE a girl from drowning?

How can we communicate with others in your world?

Phylo: It's always a clear sign that you've won an argument when your opponent resorts to this kind of childish rhetoric.


Rob: I cannot believe that you can compare calling someone a liar to accusing someone falsely of rape. You cannot possibly be that confused.

Phylo: Prager is talking about raping someone's name. I would assume that he thinks that calling someone a liar on the radio when they didn't lie would constitute the rape of their name. I wonder if Prager thinks he should be tried for raping Joe Wilson's name.


wbheff: The only problem with the dragging in of Joe Wilson's name by Phylo is, Joe Wilson did lie, more than once. Those lies are well documented, but evidently there are those who do not wish to acknowledge them. Perhaps you could try saying, "The sun rises in the West," over and over again. Who knows, someone might believe you.

Phylo: Like I said earlier, this is the time honored "did so" argument. Note the total lack of evidence to back up his claim.

mike fast: Phylo, give it up. Your pseudo-intellect is tiresome.

Phylo: Typical of the kind of substantive arguments I'm used to getting from conservatives on townhall.com

There you go Rob. Satisfied?

Phylo out.

reply to Rob
I don't quite get your points. First, when I said that the expanded view of "rape" was originate "on" the Left, I was making a thoroughly grammatical remark to indicate where this view had originated. You are also grammatically correct to say that this view was originated "by the Left." We are in agreement, and not, as you seem to think, in disagreement.

Regardless of grammar, Prager is playing the left's game with his "name rape." While he does indeed write that he deplores this expanded "definition" of rape, he just goes right on and does what he appears to be criticizing. You gotta admire the guy; consistency is not his strong point.

My reference to the stripper is also made by someone else who posted. I had taken for granted that a conservative would not buy into the silly idea that guys who hire a stripper for a party are just expecting a dance. If you believe that, I've got this big bridge that I'll sell ya...

Public challange to Dennis Prager
What about the rape of the name of Joe Wilson.

Prager and all of his talk-show buddies have been raping the name of Joe Wilson for years.

They've all repeatedly called him a liar (and all sorts of other names) when the man never once lied. I challenge anyone on this website to find the exact words, the exact quote, that constitutes a lie by Joe Wilson. I can guarantee you that you will not find that quote.

Prager loves to talk about how Hollywood has no moral courage. I'd like to see Prager demonstrate some moral courage by apologizing for raping the name of Joe Wilson, and to call on his fellow talk show hosts to apologize as well–– maybe even have him on air to do so personally.

Come on Prager, let's see how morally courageous you are.

Phylo out.

reply to DocNoleCat
Where did you get the idea that I was approving or endorsing the behavior and possible expectations of the Duke students? I was attempting to remind TH readers of a matter of basic common sense. Let's call it knowledge of the ways of the world, that I hope parents are still informing their kids about. In your case, maybe you weren't so fortunate.

Also, I said nothing about believing that a prison sentence was suitable punishment for these young sleazeballs. If you can read that into my post, you can read anything whatever you might want.

You completely fail to understand the following line from my post, which you actually quote:
""Rape" acquired a meaning so ambiguous as to be almost useless." It should be plain from the rest of my post that I am not endorsing this way of understanding "rape," much less justifying the behavior of anyone in (or out of ) government who has a history of sexual harassment. Of course you're talking about Bill Clinton and he was a sleaze too.

How in the h*** do you misread like this?

As for Clarence Thomas's "talking dirty," are you at least willing to agree with me that if he did speak like this to a woman working for him, that he was a sleaze as well?



reply to MikeFast
OK. I'll believe you when TH readers who make clear that they are indeed those God-fearing Christian conservatives post with at least a sentence or two that mention at least something to blame the Duke frat boys for doing. The impression I have is that many conservatives had absolutely zero problems with the fact that the boys hired a stripper for their party. As a liberal, I think it's morally dubious, but hey, I'm a liberal, so what do I know about right and wrong?

Bigger Issue
I think that most of us are missing the bigger picture here. The real problem with the Duke case was not the fact that the three boys were accused of rape by the stripper, but all of the crazy assumptions of guilt that went on around them. First, the Prosecutor’s Office rushed out to accuse these three students even before they did any kind of a background check on the accuser (it’s a rape case people – the ultimate “he said, she said” and they didn’t even confirm the “she said” part. Next, Duke University wasted no time is kicking these kids out of school because they assumed the three were guilty. At about the same time, national civil rights leaders were descending on North Carolina to take advantage of the racial aspect of all this because they assumed that this stripper was really raped. And finally, the American people rushed to their televisions and computers all over the land to decry the excesses of today’s college students because they assumed that all of these other people’s assumptions were accurate.

Well, what do you know – that old adage about “to assume makes an a$% of u and me” thing seems to be right. When are we all going to learn that before we judge anybody guilty, we need to take a good hard look at the evidence? That’s what we trust 12 men and women to do every single day in the courts all over America. Why don’t we hold ourselves to the same standard?

for Gestell
Gestell wrote:
"I'll believe you when TH readers who make clear that they are indeed those God-fearing Christian conservatives post with at least a sentence or two that mention at least something to blame the Duke frat boys for doing."

OK, fair enough.

I've posted on several Duke-related TH columns recently, and most times have said I consider the behavior of the men (hiring stripper, underage drinking) morally wrong and sleazy, bad behavior (as well as just plain stupid of them, BTW).

I've read many others who've said the same thing as part of their post, some with much more than "a sentence or two." This Prager column was not directly about that, so not all of us said it (again). That we believed the boys did several wrong things doesn't mean we believed they deserved a false rape charge.

I'm sorry you got the wrong "impression." Hope it's been corrected now that you know more about what conservatives have said on Townhall.

Phylo isn't worthy of your time, Dennis
Joe Wilson = LIAR! Phylo, you act as if Joe Wilson is some sort of victim. HE IS THE PERPETRATOR! Joe Wilson's lies started a spiral that ended with Lewis Libby being sentenced to a 30 month jail term - for NOTHING!

What Joe Wilson did was reprehensible and he should be in prison. Instead, he is scot-free and laughing all the way to the bank!

And Phylo IS OUT (of it).

sigh
Yes the rape of a name can be just as damageing as a phsyical rape. Imainge going though life haveing everyone you know thinking you are a monster or worse hate pouring down on all sides everywhere you go people tourching your car and throwing rocks at your house, loseing your job and the potential to ever be hired again. That is what the rape of a name is not as imidiate but just as distructive.

Black dog

Turn2him says:
"My son has just been accused of rape. The girl is lying to cover her butt because her boyfriend found out they had sex. Her false accusations has torn up my family..."

You assume they're false - but, whatever helps you sleep at night

you assume they're true whatever makes you feel better.

oh and if ted kennedy didnt actually kill that girl in his car he most certinly left her in his car to die as she was in his car.
now i assume something happend to you that makes you feel this strongly i have had friends raped and some almost raped and i would like nothimg more than to kill all the rapist in the world but our current system is set up that a vengful person can destroy someones life with a lie.

Black Dog's Comment
You are just the kind of a$$ who should shut up. You condemned my son and you have none of the facts. You know nothing. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty.

My son made a grave mistake when he slept with the girl. He admitted that. As I said, I can't talk about the details, so there is a lot I have left unsaid about the case.

It's moronic statements like yours that causes bitterness. If you can't say something intelligent, go listen to Airhead America.

turn2him
and black dog just proved the whole point that name rape can be just as bad as a phsyical rape with that one line. i can feel the hatred just seeping out of every word.

reply to chris
chris, show me the evidence. Find the quote that you think constitutes a lie. This might be come as a shock to you, but just because you THINK something is true, doesn't mean that it is.



Scooter Got Sentenced for Crimes
Yes indeed. Bush-appointed judge, Republican prosecutor, Gonzalez justice department, etc. Read it and veep.

Public challange to Dennis Prager
What about the rape of the name of Joe Wilson.

Prager and all of his talk-show buddies have been raping the name of Joe Wilson for years.

They've all repeatedly called him a liar (and all sorts of other names) when the man never once lied. I challenge anyone on this website to find the exact words, the exact quote, that constitutes a lie by Joe Wilson. I can guarantee you that you will not find that quote.

Prager loves to talk about how Hollywood has no moral courage. I'd like to see Prager demonstrate some moral courage by apologizing for raping the name of Joe Wilson, and to call on his fellow talk show hosts to apologize as well–– maybe even have him on air to do so personally.

Come on Prager, let's see how morally courageous you are.

Phylo out.

reply to Rob
I'll try again. Prager is doing just what conservatives love to criticize the left (especially feminists) for doing--namely, expanding the concept of "rape" to cover a wide assortment of things they may not like. Someone quoted Marxist feminist law professor Catherine MacKinnon's defintion of "rape." That's a good example of what I had in mind.

Then Prager goes ahead to expand "rape" to include "name rape." That's just the sort of thing a lefty would do, and TH readers would blast him for it.

So, Prager could say both "no" to some expansions of "rape," but, in effect, claim an exemption for his own version. As I said, consistency isn't his strong point.


Reply to Black Dog
As I said, you know nothing of me, my son nor of the case. Yet, you pretend to sit in judgement over me and my family. I clearly said, he has not been charged, and still you have indicted him and proclaimed him guilty. Just like all self-righteous liberals who condemn the innocent and worship the guilty, who condemn what's good and promote what's evil, who slander others for the same things you do, who lie and call others liars.

To make matters worse, you dare to claim the innocence of those moral pigs Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton. You dare lift them up, these political scumbags who pontificate morality while destroying what's right and good in our country.

The whole idea behind Mr. Prager's article was that just as the physical rape of a woman causes pain and grief, a false accusation of rape cause grief to the innocent man. The false accusation cuts even deeper, according to the police and lawyers I have talked to, because one false accusation casts doubt on all the woman who were raped. Thus, putting away a real rapist only becomes more difficult.

I was simply offering a voice of one who has been there, reaching out to those men in the audience who may have faced such a wrongful accusation. The false accusation closes the future, cuts at your self-worth, brings shame as you have to share this with family and others, and adds financial burdens. Sir, if you ever walk in my shoes, perhaps you will not be so condensending with your tone.

I'm sorry your hard heart couldn't see that.

Reply to Blackdog
There's no sense talking to a liberal with blinders on.

I hope someone else realizes that false accusations of any kind has tenacles that reach out in destructive ways.
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