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Tuesday, March 13, 2007
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Jesus Was No Leftist
by Dennis Prager
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Democratic presidential candidate and former Sen. John Edwards told an interviewer from the religious website beliefnet.com that Jesus "would be disappointed" at how little Americans help the destitute who live among them. Jesus, Mr. Edwards said, "would be appalled" at our selfishness.

In the view of John Edwards and other Christians on the Left, Jesus would raise taxes, promote single-payer, i.e., socialized, medicine, be pro-choice and advocate same-sex marriage. But most of all, Jesus would be anti-war, opposed to the military and essentially be a pacifist.

This is based largely on one of His most famous statements: "Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

The flaw in interpreting such statements as policy statements on how a nation should behave is that Jesus was speaking about the life of the individual -- the micro -- not about nations and the macro.

This confusion of micro and macro morality not only afflicts the Left, it also afflicts the Right. One example is when religious conservatives equate public and private cursing. While ideally one should refrain from using expletives in private as well as in public, there is no moral comparison between using such words in private conversations and using them in public. One trusts that if a religious conservative overheard a teacher using an expletive in a quiet conversation with one other person, he would not compare such speech to the teacher's using that expletive while teaching a class. The first may be a personal sin, but the second is destructive of society.

Nevertheless it is the Left that is most oblivious to the distinction between the micro and the macro. Its understanding of Jesus is a good example. The Left would have us as a nation put this admonition of Jesus into practice: "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

But Jesus was clearly referring to interpersonal relations. It is critically important when trying to understand any portion of the Bible or any other text to read a passage within the context of the surrounding material. As biblical commentaries often put it, "Context is king."

Noting what precedes and what follows this verse shows that it deals with attitudes and behaviors of individuals in such matters as anger against another individual in one's personal life, adultery, divorce, oath-taking, giving to the poor, prayer, fasting, prioritizing, worrying, etc. Jesus was talking about interpersonal relations and noted that in our relations with people in our lives, it is not generally a good idea to hit back.

Now imagine applying this to nations: Should we have said to the Japanese after they attacked Pearl Harbor, "Now that you have attacked us in the West, please also bomb our cities in the East"?

The idea that a country should offer its other cheek to an aggressor is simply immoral, not to mention suicidal. Such thinking renders Jesus and the Christian Bible foolish.

It also shows how hypocritical are the Left's attacks on religious conservatives for taking the Bible literally. It is the Left that engages in a far more dangerous literalism when it applies Jesus' words to national policy. Those on the religious Right who believe that God created the world in six 24-hour days are engaged in, I believe, a completely unnecessary literalism. But it is hardly dangerous. The Left's biblical literalism, however, applying "turn the other cheek" to millions of its own citizens, is fatally dangerous.

Besides literalism, another point of hypocrisy: The Left attacks the religious Right for threatening to replace our democracy with a theocracy that will impose fundamentalist Christianity on the nation. Yet the people who loathe conservatives for using Scripture have no difficulty with those who cite Jesus' words when arguing their positions -- even when citing them incorrectly.

Jesus was no leftist. He was, among other things, a religious Jew who knew and believed his Hebrew Bible, which contains verses such as this one from Psalms: "Those of you who love God must hate evil." That, not offering another city for terrorists to bomb, is likely what Jesus believed.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Jesus was no leftist
Jesus' comments about turning the other cheek were in reference to an insult not an attack. If you are facing someone and hit them on the right cheek, it means you are hitting them with the back of your hand. It is meant as an insult, not something you would do to cause physical harm. Jesus never said if someone tries to kill you and doesn't succeed, let them try again.

Both he right AND left need to stop ....
with the "what would Jesus do" tripe.

It's trite.

Jesus was no leftist
I believe Dennis' interpretation of the passage is correct and we need to point these things out. However I am not at all convinced that John Edwards cares much about what Jesus said except insofar as it seems to allow him to occupy some kind of moral high ground. Like John Kerry, I suspect his knowledge of the scriptures barely makes it to the superficial. To those on the left (and perhaps some on the right)invoking the name of Jesus is sometimes useful because with many people Jesus has credibility even if they are not Christians. A Hollywood celebrity can stand in front of crowd of beligerent pro-abortion fanatics and proclaim that "If Jesus were here He would be standing with us!" Even if completely absurd, it sounds great.

Stratus
Please try to remember that wisdom is found in the generalities.
But then again, why throw pearls to the swine? They'll muck it up anyhow.

Shut the hell up, stratus. Jeez...
Man, when idiots decide to hate someone, they'll pull out all stops to try to flaunt it, even when they show their stupidity in the process.

Stratus, Prager's column was replete with examples of how the religious Right and the Left, both religious and secular, abuse religion and common sense when they interpret religious Scripture too literally. Did you take a bathroom break or something when you were supposed to be reading the following passages?:

"One example is when religious conservatives equate public and private cursing."

"Democratic presidential candidate and former Sen. John Edwards told an interviewer from the religious website beliefnet.com that Jesus "would be disappointed" at how little Americans help the destitute who live among them. Jesus, Mr. Edwards said, "would be appalled" at our selfishness."

"The Left attacks the religious Right for threatening to replace our democracy with a theocracy that will impose fundamentalist Christianity on the nation. Yet the people who loathe conservatives for using Scripture have no difficulty with those who cite Jesus' words when arguing their positions -- even when citing them incorrectly."

Etc.

Meanwhile, I've got to give Prager, a religious Jew, special credit for making the effort to explain the wisdom of Jesus and the merits of his followers to this day. As with every other human endeavor, religion gets abused if its practitioners lose sight of its purpose and take it to an extreme. This article helps put it in its right perspective.




One must wonder
What Jesus thinks of his children now, calling out his thoughts and intentions as if they were his apostles and knew him intimately. I have read and even observed that much of the classics of literature are shut to 99% of population, even much of Shakespeare, due to the people's absolute biblical ignorance, making much of it meaningless. Who today could read Milton's "Paradise Lost" and think of it anything other than gibberish. So much of what was the bedrock, the foundation stones of the West have been washed away, I wonder how much longer we can endure the storm of fools before the whole house slides into the sea. Fools who ignorantly claim Jesus to their banner simply to empower themselves.

Ideology gets in the way again
I largely agree with the point that religious teachings cannot necessarily be applied at the level of national policy (or even interpersonal relations...I'm talking to you, Bill C. and Newt G.). However, gimme a break with the left is worse than the right stuff. They are pretty much equally retarded in their ability to interpret religion. Mostly, both just use faith to achieve material goals. And take this whopper:

"Those on the religious Right who believe that God created the world in six 24-hour days are engaged in, I believe, a completely unnecessary literalism. But it is hardly dangerous."

Well, scuze me, but I'd say that sort of attitude is pretty dangerous when you start using religious faith as the substitute for the scientific method in matters of public concern (I trust I don't have to provide examples for this discerning audience).



Status of Jesus
Dennis Prager comes close, but I don't think he quite nails it down. He'd do well to come up with more examples. Everybody likes examples. We can't get through the day without examples. Opinion doesn't count for much anymore, only examples.

Stratus, you really are in the clouds.

Jesus lived over 2000 years ago when society was a tad different from today's reality. People, mostly liberals, keep forgetting to examine things in context of the situation and the times. They keep looking at history with today's perspective, thus learning nothing from the past and misjudging what real people said and did, and what really happened in life.

Jesus is neither right nor left. He knows all things and doesn't need to choose sides. Some of you refer to Him like a man-on-the-street. Wake up!!!


I've even wondered
You don't suppose that the turn the other cheek statement was actually one of defiance. Did Cool Hand Luke take inspiration from it?

Jesus and Pacifism
Like many who make a similar argument, Mr. Prager assumes survival is something near and dear to Jesus' heart. Its not. The gospels make it clear that Jesus saw his death coming - perhaps not primarily because he was divine, but because he had a keen sense of politics and knew that when someone pushes a system the system pushes back, like it did to Lincoln, Gandhi, MLK, Soviet dissidents, Yitzhak Rabin and others, who were killed not by foreign extremists but by fellow citizens. Jesus even promised his followers that they would also suffer and perhaps die because they followed in his footsteps.
In this sense Jesus is, to use a phrase from Thomas Sowell, a man of the "constrained vision" of human nature who was no optimist in regards to human nature and goodness. So Jesus was no leftist who believed the irrational could be reasoned with if only we appealed to the better angels of their nature.
But neither was he a fan of the nation-state. At its most basic level a nation-state is defined as a body that has clearly defined borders and a monopoly on the use of force (no vigilantes and
lynch mobs allowed). The kingdom Jesus proclaimed has neither clearly defined borders nor does it secure its existence by force of arms, but by the resurrection of the dead.
And this is where Mr. Prager's distinction between applying Jesus' teaching on a micro and macro level falls flat (a distinction Jesus himself never made). This distinction assumes Jesus blesses the world order shaped by nation states, and by definition nation states can and will use force of arms. But Jesus came to establish, dare I say it, a new world order marked by the reign of God, not the rule of nations. Just because Jesus is no leftist doesn't mean he's a cheerleader for the nation-state. After all, it was at the hands of the state he was crucified.

Ed..
Deep thoughts there...

however, Paul discusses that Rulers had God on their side, to maintain law and order. Jesus also alludes to it when He says "render unto Caesar..."

Jesus said His Kingdom was not of this Earth, and when It did come, then borders would be dissolved, not that He was setting it up for humans to run it.

Mr. Prager does well to discuss the difference between micro and macro, and both the Right and the Left try to use the Word of God to justify their political position; this is human nature.

His point, I believe, that we cannot "turn the other cheek" to terrorists is valid, nor would it do any good.

The Islamists want only your conversion, or your death.

Speaking For Jesus...
I don't recommend putting words in Jesus' mouth, or purporting to know His thoughts when they're not captured in His Word. It becomes transparent to those who revere scripture when it is being manipulated for political gain.

So far, and I'm keeping count, I've seen some doozies attributed to Hillary, Edwards, Kerry, Dean and Gore.

Credit Prager for bringing understanding to G-d's Word, as opposed to Edwards, whose personal depth and breadth of relationship with Jesus Christ simply does not qualify him to be the mouthpiece of the Lord.

On the other hand,
let's say all the peoples of the world do "turn the other cheek." And the Islamists kill everybody, even all the Chinese, and everybody is dead, because they microed The Word, and all these people's souls are in Heaven, with Jesus and the other Saints, and are looking down at the Islamists, with their Caliphate, and notice the Islamists are sort of milling about, because they don't have anything left to do, nobody left to kill, and they've got all this oil laying around, with nobody to sell it to, because nobody has any cars, because the Islamists used up all the cars for car bombs, and they don't know how to make a new one, so on and so forth....

...and then all the souls in Heaven turn to look at Jesus, and they see the wry smile on his face.

Maybe somebody thinks that what Jesus meant.

Straw-man Arguments
None of the Democrats running for president is “opposed to the military.” Can Prager name any serious mainstream spokesman on the left who calls for abolishing the military? Can Prager name anyone on the left who invited the Japanese to bomb more America cities?

One can support the military and support the troops while being opposed to the military being used to fight misguided wars that put the country in greater danger.

Sorry Dennis
I can't take you article seriously. As one who really doesn't know who Jesus is, who are you to tell us who he wasn't?

Kinda like people who don't know which end of the cow the milk cows from telling me how to farm. Sorry Dennis, learn who Jesus is first. Then tell us who he isn't.

s.j.
You are misguided. One cannot support the military and the troops and be against the war. War is their mission. To tell them that their mission is wrong is to undermine them and demoralize them. That is not support. It is opposition to them.
I'm happy that we have such brave men and women in this county that do what they do so well. I was in the World Trade Center in 1993 for the first attack, thankfully I was in Chicago for the second, but hastily evacuated for my building because it was a "prime" target. I'm tired of these muslim fascists shooting at me.

Jesus didn't preach taxation
Great article! I'm sick of leftists saying that Jesus would do this and that. The fact is that Jesus did NOT instruct his disciples to petition the Roman governor to raise taxes to provide more for the poor. He told them (and by extension, all of us)to personally take care of each other. Christians today do this, with soup kitchens, help finding jobs, supporting families in hard times. But Liberals always want to apply the personal to the government.

Edwards loves Jesus
Right. I guess Jesus would be real pleased with the Breck Girlie man for putting doctors out of business with junk science law suits, costing women greater OBGYN bills if they can find one.

Edwards, just another dimocrap trying to look like he's got some faith. He only faith he has is worshipping the almighty dollar in his new mansion.
Has Gore asked Edwards to pay for his huge carbon footprint? Ha! What jokes the dimocraps are.

God only wants to know YOU
Everyone in the world that believes in "God" has their heart in the right place, but that doesn't negate the fact that they're being fed a stew of lies masked in salvation (from......something.) Don't we yet have sufficient millenia of humanity blindly following stupid man-made tales to remain so ignorant? Little sheep, OPEN YOUR EYES. Life's too short.

Jesus certainly was not a conservative
either.

Jesus would not have supported the death penalty or torture.
I am not even sure he would have supported pre-emptive war.

Testing 1 2 3 . . .
This is being posted from the great beyond. I have a little box for comment in front of me, but I've no access to the full column and comments of others.

I do hope TH resolves this soon. I'm curious what folks are saying about Jesus' political leanings.

It always amuses me when people say he's Left or Right. It's kind of like saying the yardstick is short or long.

Jesus...
As a non-religious person I'm not a huge fan of "what would jesus think" discussions, even though I have questioned Christians in that way plenty of times in the past. You can use interpretations of biblical texts to defend whatever you like or attack whatever you like. But I went to church as a child and grew up in a Christian household; I find it hard to believe that Jesus would support any war based on national self-interest, which is what most wars are regardless of who is fighting them. The fact is that he died 2000 years ago - the only thing we can say with any degree of certainty is that the world we know today is totally unrecognisable from the world he knew.

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND DEMOCRAT PARTY
Hey, I thought Edwards supported the separation of church and state, or did I just assume it?

How can Edwards base policies on what (John Edwards believes) a religious leader would or would not support? I'd like somebody to ask him about that at his next press conference.

I'm offended
You know, Christians tell us gay folks that they don't care what we do in our own bedrooms, as long as we don't bring it in to the public arena, because then, somehow, their kids are at risk.

Well, I feel the same way about Christianity, and all organized religion. I don't mind if you decide to worship, in your home, in your church, on your own time. But when you bring into public your pastor-fed views on Absolute Truth and the eternal damnation of all who don't agree with you, it's obvious that YOU'RE the ones putting our kids at risk. Your rhetoric is immoral, sinful, and filthy, and frankly, it's inappropriate for the public arena.

Isn't your "personal relationship with God" the important part anyway? Keep it personal!

if Jesus was a leftist
Dems crack me up. They are laughable in their idiot-ology. They are constantly trying to create victims, but fail to preach the message of turn the other cheek to the victims. To them they will say fight, stand and every thing else to try and squeeze out a vote. Extreeme hypocracy if you ask me.
Jesus was not a leftist simply because he has no stake in the governments of men (he was not far from a conservative either). I dont see Him pulling for Romney over Guilani. However, when he does establish his kingdom there will be a socialist system established. The problem with the left is they think they can govern like God with out God. Man can not and will not ever be fair in his current state. Look at the location where Edwards made his rediculous statement. He like so many people try and use guilt to motivate people.
Christ never attempted such strageties. He used loved, and according to Paul when the works of men are tried by fire to test the motives only actions based on love will be rewarded.The whole basis of the conservative christian is that they beleive they can do a better job with social issues than government. They are more effective dealing with individuals than huge bulky, currupt governments. They should decide who and how much of their money people get.
All governments are currupt both left and right. That is the whole idea of limmited government. The basis for our system of government. Soon we will see that we have "progressed" so far from our foundation we fall over. It is the pattern found in nature. Things are born, grow, and then die. It is the curse of sin and we are arrogant to think we are above it.

NO MONOPOLY ON JESUS
This article should have been written years ago about the right. You know, before Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and the other far right evangelical nut-jobs hijacked the republican party. Why didn't Dennis write this column after President Dubya professed to God being the "higher father" he consulted on political issues.

This discussion would have been useful whenever the Almighty was being reduced to a plaque (the ten commandments) in a courtroom or a prayer in the classroom.

Don't get me wrong. Mr. Prager's argument has validity. It's just that Mr. Prager sifting through the numerous instances of religious (self righteous) grandstanding on the right to chastise John Edwards on the left is the equivalent of a police officer scurrying past an armed robbery to ticket a jaywalker.

The religious right has been using Jesus as a political football for years (refer to David Kuo, the former Special Assistant to President Bush). But a democratic presidential candidate evokes the name of Jesus, and all hell (no pun intended) breaks loose.

religiouslib
Every time you post I laugh @ you.
Jesus was not a conservative because He was not political. What part of "My kingdom is not of this world" do you not understand.

To correct your ideas about how Jesus would rule I suggest you consult the Bible. Jesus will declare war(more than once) and He will rule with an iron rod. I just hope not all your ideas about who Jesus is and what he will do are as screwed as this one. I hope you are on the RIGHT side of His war, and do not get LEFT out. Pun intended.

The source....
Prager is a practicing Jew. He has no business lecturing any Christian on our faith.

Jeff- Iron rod?
Sounds loving. Can't wait to be here for it.

JeffRob
It is not just the personal relationship with God that we seek and are supposed to be doing. The Great Commission instructs us to tell others about the Word and bring them into the flock. You have obviously decided that this is not for you. I will pray for you.

Lydia - I think BornToFarm was saying not that he was ignorant of Jesus, but that Dennis, a man of the Jewish faith, could not know about Jesus and his message because he is Jewish. I think he is wrong about that. You can know about Jesus and speculate what he was trying to say without being a Christian. He just does not accept Jesus as his Savior.

Monty - I know it's been a while
since you posted, but I had to respond.

Monty wrote:

"Well, scuze me, but I'd say that sort of attitude is pretty dangerous when you start using religious faith as the substitute for the scientific method in matters of public concern (I trust I don't have to provide examples for this discerning audience)."

Well, scuze me, but wasn't it the so-called "scientific method" that replaced religious faith in matters of public concern?



Comments
Quote from article: "In the view of John Edwards and other Christians on the Left, Jesus would raise taxes, promote single-payer, i.e., socialized, medicine, be pro-choice and advocate same-sex marriage. But most of all, Jesus would be anti-war, opposed to the military and essentially be a pacifist. "

Jesus and his disciples paid taxes, not aware of his position on raising taxes, other than telling the Pharisees to "render to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God" If you want the context, go check out a Bible.
His view on war and soldiers, not sure, but he did heal the daughter of a Roman soldier, and his some of his disciples carried a sword ( see the episode in the Garden of Gethsemane)

In occupied Israel of that time, the soldiers were Roman or part of the High Priest's Guard ( with the permission of Rome).

I suggest perhaps it would be better for Mr Edwards to follow the advice given to the rich young ruler: "Go sell all you have and give it to the poor.....and the many went away sad...."

Want to know the edited parts, check New Testament, Holy Bible.


bigmick
Taking your meds, buddy?

You might need to check your prescriptions and make sure that they're not interfering with each other.

JeffRob
This is old spew.

JeffRob writes:

Well, I feel the same way about Christianity, and all organized religion. I don't mind if you decide to worship, in your home, in your church, on your own time. But when you bring into public your pastor-fed views on Absolute Truth and the eternal damnation of all who don't agree with you, it's obvious that YOU'RE the ones putting our kids at risk. Your rhetoric is immoral, sinful, and filthy, and frankly, it's inappropriate for the public arena.



There is absolutely no way you can honestly compare what anyone does in his bedroom with the practice of religion. It's disingenuous and the resort of those who can't develop legitimate arguments.

Though I will recognize that there have been many people who have sustained some sort of harm as a result of their participation in organized religion, only a small percentage of those harmed were participating in organized Christianity.

On the other hand, how many people do you know who have been messed up because of some untimely exposure to sex or sexual things?

You simply lose all credibility when you make such ridiculous assertions. All they do is show that you have a knee-jerk reaction to religion.

Elisabeth
"Elisabeth writes: Tuesday, March, 13, 2007 2:15 PM
The source....
Prager is a practicing Jew. He has no business lecturing any Christian on our faith. "

Elisabeth,
Why don't you try reading Prager's column let's say 5 times and then maybe you can hear what he is saying.

He is saying don't confuse the micro world with the macro world, one of his favorite stands.

And now that you've learned that you put your preconceptions in front of everything you see and hear, why don't you work on that? It might improve your life.







heatseeker
I don't find it disingenuous in the slightest to compare any of our behaviors, private or otherwise, religious, sexual, societal, financial, or any other, with other behaviors. They're all behaviors.

Further, I think an open, healthy, truthful development of our sexuality is imperative to our being normal, well-adjusted adults.

Conversely, I find the worship of fictitious deities and the indoctrination of our children with a closed-minded, us-againt-them fundamentalist religion disgusting and regrettable.

Lastly, I know a few HIV+ people, both gay and straight. And those are the only people I know who have suffered harm at the hands of sexual activity. However, I know many a gay man and lesbian who have been permanently scarred by their Christian (and Muslim and Jewish) fundamentalist upbringing. The Ex-Gay movement does FAR more harm to society than gay sex ever could.

Some comments

Jesus held the Law and the prophets to be the word of God that cannot be broken.

Few leftist do.

Jesus believed in private property.

Few leftist do.

Jesus believed in capital punishment. He never denied Pilate his right to execute him, even though he could have summoned an army to prevent it.

Jesus believed in personal charity.

Few leftists do. (Read "Who Really Cares").


Yep, Jesus was no leftist.

Few leftist do.

Death Penalty
+religiouslib writes: Tuesday, March, 13, 2007 12:40 PM
+Jesus certainly was not a conservative
either.

+Jesus would not have supported the death penalty or torture.
+I am not even sure he would have supported pre-emptive war.

Can't speak to torture, but I doubt it.

I heard an interesting piece yesterday that covered part of this. Of all the injustices that Christ spoke against, the death penalty wasn't one of them. There he was, hanging between two crucified theives, and he says nothing about their punishment, only their salvation.

Personally I think it should be reserved for those individuals who are not rendered harmless by life in prison. Tooky Williams is an example. His great status in the LA gang community would enabled him to extend his reach outside the prison. Joe Average in a fit of despair or rage killing someone (even pre-meditated) doesn't deserve the death penalty becuase it isn't part of his normal pattern of behavior.

Thanks to BornToFarm…

Mr. Prager, Jesus claimed to be the Christ in His high priestly prayer in John 17…

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was…” [John 17:1-5]


He described Himself as the Son of Man with power to forgive sins…

‘But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins....’ Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." [Matthew 9:6]


He professed to be the sacrificial lamb of the New Covenant…

‘This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins’ [Matthew 26:28].


John the Baptist inquired of Jesus, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me." [Matthew 11:2-6]

Jesus pointed John back to the Messianic passages in Isaiah chapters 35 and 61 and warned him not to stumble and take offense at the meekness of the Lamb of God.


The mockers of Christianity hold a more consistent position than you. If Jesus is not Messiah, then he was delusional or a liar. In either case his words are not worthy to be considered.


Jesus was no leftist indeed
And to say He was is to miss the entire point of His ministry.

And I don't necessarilly think He was on the right, either, only that the policies of conservatives embrace more of what Christ taught.

Please remember
that Jesus and his apostles were Jews. There are also many Messianic Jews. Sometimes we tend to forget this fact when blinded by the modernism of western culture. We are called to be in this world not of this world.

JeffRob: At least you got one thing
right. Yes - "an open, healthy, truthful development of our sexuality is imperative to our being normal, well-adjusted adults."

But what constitutes open, healthy, and truthful?

Something tells me that many homosexuals and practitioners of organized religion would disagree on the answer to this question.

Based on my friendships with people active in the gay community and various news reports, many homosexuals promote early exposure to sexual things in the pursuit of being "open" and "truthful." Most religious people would advocate delaying children's exposure to explicit sexual material.

There are many studies done by both secular and religious organizations that cite the damage done to the psyches and sexual development of men and women alike because they were exposed to sexual things at an age or at a time when they didn't understand what they were seeing or experiencing. You can find hundreds of such studies by running a simple search using terms like sex, children, pornography, development, etc.

The fact that you fail to see the difference between the practice of religion and sexual acitivity shows either your ignorance or your naivete. They are both behaviors, yes. One is meant to be a community experience among a group of people who share similar beliefs. The other is meant to be a private affair between two consenting adults. Apples and oranges are both fruit, but that's as far as that comparison goes. The same with these two behaviors.

The fact that you continually feel the need to demean organized religion sucks away your credibility on this topic. Who cares if you think it's fictitious. You could still show some respect. And I know what you're going to say, some whiny complaint about how they don't respect you. Okay, so what? Is that what you base your actions on - how others behave? Are you not an autonomous adult who makes his own choices about how he will conduct himself?

As for those who have been harmed - are you serious that only those who have contracted HIV have suffered from sexual activity? You're telling me that the child who was abused by his older cousin and turns into a molester himself hasn't suffered? His victims weren't harmed? What about the boy who found his father's porn stash and grew up thinking that the "behaviors" depicted there are the way husbands should treat their wives? How many examples do I need to cite? Are you really that willing to overlook the facts in order to continue your ridiculous argument?

Think before you post.

John Edwards was Correct!
Jesus would most certainly be appalled at how selfish people in our society are today. I am sure nothing would make Jesus more appalled than the selfishness that young woman have for their personal convenience, which would make them murder their unborn children in their wombs. I can think of nothing more selfish, except owning a 28,000 square foot home and also a 2800 square foot beach house; then complaining about other people being selfish and greedy.

Get the right book
As for what Jesus Christ, Son of God really said on this and other topics, it is essential to have an accurate document for the source-- and we do. Here is an excellent site to explain why we, as an English speaking people, do have the true and reliable Word of God in English.

If the foundations be destroyed, what shall the righteous do?

http://www.avpublications.com/avnew/home.html

Please be our friend
Now imagine applying this to nations:
Should we have said to the Japanese after
they attacked Pearl Harbor, "Now that
you have attacked us in the West, please
also bomb our cities in the East"?

But that's exactly what we said to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan after the attacks on September 11, 2001.

The poverty/terror myth
by Cait Murphy
Fortune, March 13 2007

Aren't the people who commit terrorist acts poor, even if they are from countries that are not? No. Remember, most of the 19 HIJACKERS on 9/11 were middle-class sons of SAUDI ARABIA and many were well-educated. And OSAMA BIN LADEN himself is from one of the richest families in the Middle East.

...Outside Palestine, there is general agreement that suicide attacks on civilians is a form of terrorism. So where do suicide bombers fit in? A study looked at the biographies of 285 suicide bombers as published in local journals, from 1987-2002. And this found that those who carried out SUICIDE ATTACKS were, on the whole, RICHER (fewer than 15% under the poverty line, compared to almost 35% for the population as a whole) and MORE EDUCATED (95% with high school or higher) than the rest of the population (almost half of whom went no further than middle school).

http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/13/magazines/fortune/
pluggedin_murphy_terror.fortune/?postversion=2007031311

heatseeker
I certainly have said nothing about the fact that premature sexual exposure harms children. There's no doubt about that.
But to tell a 15 or 16 year old who wants to talk about sex that they're too young to know what they feel, well, that's just wearing a huge, unfortunate set of blinders.
And you are correct that we probably disagree on what's "open, healthy and truthful". But it seems that Christians aren't open about it at all. Which, it seems, makes their approach unhealthy and, by proxy, untruthful.
I suppose I am just as surprised that you don't believe Christianity has been massively harmful, as you are that I don't believe gay sex is massively harmful. But, to be fair, you go to Church every Sunday and come out relatively unscathed, and I get in to bed every night with my partner of 5 years and get up every morning with a smile. So, I guess it's all perspective.

Please be our friend - part 2
Editorial: The Saudi Mirage
New York Sun, March 13, 2007

At the moment, the LEFT and the ARABISTS are rapidly gaining hope in the maneuvering of the SAUDIS. The benign view of what is happening is that the Saudi monarchy is frightened at the expansion of Iranian power throughout the region. The theory goes that a deal would have to contain sufficient elements to have some appeal for the Muslim Arabs. That is the theory in which the Saudis, after the fighting over the summer in which they secretly were rooting for the Israelis to crush Hezbollah, relaunched their notorious initiative of several years ago.

Foreign Minister Livni, however, has said several times in recent days that the problem with the Saudi plan concerns its language on REPATRIATING PALESTINIAN ARAB REFUGEES. She did not say the problem is the Saudis' scheme to return to Israel's 1967 borders; the Saudis are trying to amend the plan by dropping the reference to U.N. Resolution 194.

We are not against peace between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs. Or between Israel and its neighboring or nearby countries. But we DON'T TRUST THE SAUDI KING as far as we can throw the whole Middle East. Nor are we under any illusion that the global war that is being levied against America and other Western countries by our Islamist foes has to do with Israel in the first place.

http://www.nysun.com/article/50333

Please be our friend - part 3
Analysis: A new test for British passport
by Jackson E. Kentebe
UPI, March 12, 2007

New threats have emerged from immigrants of Middle Eastern and west Asian origins. According to immigration expert Irwin Stelzer, they REFUSE TO ASSIMILATE into the British culture which they "despise." "They insist that neither British food be served, nor traditional British tolerance practiced in the schools their children attend," Stelzer said. Many innocent people have suffered due to stringent requirements because of the actions of a radical minority coming from AFGHANISTAN, SAUDI ARABIA, and PAKISTAN.

http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/
view.php?StoryID=20070309-103601-6949r

jander
I wholeheartedly agree with overall point about the acceptance, even the stress, on how important it is to be selfish, to put yourself first.

However, in all the descriptions I've ever read of Jesus, the one thing I've never imagined Him to be is surprised at how low humans can sink. That's the wonderful thing about Jesus. He knows exactly what we are - and loves us anyway.

Differences

I am glad to see Dennis made a point of the difference between personal and societal beliefs as to how to understand the meaning of the Bible.

One of the greatest problems of using the Bible is understanding not only the intent of the authors of Scriptures, but why they are writing what they do. What hurts the Christian faith is either interpreting what the Bible means to them or using Scriptures in the wrong context.


Of Moral Clarity & Perpetual War
Dennis Prager writes:

“Now imagine applying this [pacifism] to nations: Should we have said to the Japanese after they attacked Pearl Harbor, "Now that you have attacked us in the West, please also bomb our cities in the East"?

The idea that a country should offer its other cheek to an aggressor is simply immoral, not to mention suicidal. Such thinking renders Jesus and the Christian Bible foolish.”

In regards to the ‘surprise’ attack on Pearl Harbor, in view of the previous 90 years of violently aggressive land grabs in the Pacific Rim and Asia, by both the United States and Japan, and the fact that Japan had no choice but to attempt to get access to oil supplies that the U.S., who had been a major supplier, had cut off due to Japanese aggression; the ‘fact’ that conflict was inevitable seems obviously apparent with our 21st century historical viewpoint. Certainly the Japanese felt threatened by the U.S. conquests of the Philippines, Guam, the Hawaiian Islands, our ‘open door policy’ that allowed us to exploit Chinese peasants and resources; as they certainly remember the American ‘black ships’ that had opened up Japan itself to being exploited by American ‘interests’ in some of the more famous instances of American ‘gunboat diplomacy.’

“Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” (Mt. 26:52).

So as far as direct relations between the ‘modern’ nations of Japan and the U.S., America can certainly be deemed the first transgressor . . .

Alas, in striving to erect a barrier between interpersonal and national international relations, Prager states, “Jesus was talking about interpersonal relations and noted that in our relations with people in our lives, it is not generally a good idea to hit back.” Not that generalizing the words of Christ our Savior is necessarily a bad thing, yet, generalizing specific statements can often have, literally, fatal consequences, i.e.; donkeys cannot pass through the eye of a needle therefore all rich people are going to hell, or, all nations’ are under Satan’s dominion therefore the United States government serves evil, or this renowned hideous generalization, “For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men” (I Thes. 2:14-15), this generalization being the cause of much grave evil in humankind’s history. The point being is that going from a particular to a universal can often lead to erroneous conclusions, as certainly as presupposing the intent of Jesus’ words (or St. Paul’s, Samuel’s, David’s, Mose’s, etc. . . .) has, sadly, all to often led far too many people to commit horrible actions/atrocities.

So in the face of Dennis writing that, not physically combating ones’ enemies is, “immoral, not to mention suicidal. Such thinking renders Jesus and the Christian Bible foolish,” I can only hearken unto the words and deeds of Jesus as my guide. Consequently, “You have heard that it hath been said: An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other: (Mt. 5:39-40). To me this quote represents the epitome of a non-violent ethos! Also, when Christ commands Peter to sheathe his sword, and then even miraculously restores the Roman’s ear, Christ’s physical actions seem to complement his commitment to not resisting evil; as most certainly his crucifixion displays Christ’s unwillingness to smite those who would, and did, smite him. Context may be king but Christ is the King of Kings! Aye, mayhap Christ was a foolish lunatic or a lying false prophet as some contend, but to me, Christ is the Son of G-d who hath saved me, and you too if you choose to believe, from eternal condemnation. ?

So while Dennis’s assertion that Leftists like John Edwards believe “Jesus would raise taxes, promote single-payer, i.e., socialized, medicine, be pro-choice and advocate same-sex marriage,” is probably unfounded hyperbole (maybe he should ask John Edwards if Jesus would do these things); Scripture does not relate any physically violent actions perpetrated by Jesus Christ. Well, except that “And Jesus went into the temple of God and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple and overthrew the tables of the money changers and the chairs of them that sold doves.” (Mt. 21:12). In fact, if we match words with actions, it seems Jesus despised the intent behind money, and is never indicated as having any money, especially since we know Christ is perfect; and what is the only way for humankind to attain earthly perfection (Mt. 19:21)!. So if we were to emulate the only violent act Christ performed, it would seem destroying profane capitalism should be the first thing a Christian would strive to do, as money has been noted to be the root of all kinds of evil. Indeed, it took a fishy miracle by Jesus to pay the coinage to even enter the Synagogue . . .

So it seems at face value Jesus would have been a Nazi barber . . .

I do agree with Dennis that it surely can be a slippery slope when to be literal and when to be figurative when striving to understand Scripture, as indeed, at face value the Old Testament seethes with genocide, greed, adultery, coveting, a vengeful and repenting G-d, etc.; while the New Covenant poignantly describes our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ shedding his blood unto death for humankind and saying he brings not peace but the sword. The ancient Israelites are said to have perpetrated unspeakable genocidal crimes, as even G-d Himself sends angels to slaughter foes of Israel; is Hashem a G-d of war as well as peace? Does G-d have anger management issues, or are His just ways simply too far beyond the ken of humankind? One thing is for certain, violence is nothing new to humanity, but forsaking ourselves and becoming non-violent sacrificial lambs by our faith in Jesus Christ is; Christian soldiers shrug of thy idolatrous devotion to militarism, Mammon, and love of country, and embrace the ways and means of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

Actions speak far louder than words!

It has been writ there is a time for war and a time for peace, and obviously this world has been at war somewhere, sometime, perpetually for the last several thousands of years, as even the American government now promises us perpetual war: alas, it is nigh time for an age of peace. And rest assured war does not make peace, and killing somebody b/c you think they may kill you later on is what it is -- premeditated murder; preemptive wars are premeditated murder! Tis time to shed our barbaric ways people, and start living up to the image in which we have been created, and if the Chinese came to exterminate us all, and we did not resist their evil, then we have done as Christ himself did, we would die martyrs’ for the love of G-d; and that is the ultimate sacrifice!

But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: (Mt. 5:44).

Amen.

Really, JeffRob, must you make such
assumptions with no proof?

Though you haven't said anything about premature sexual exposure, you started this by saying that what goes on in the bedroom should be just as acceptable for public fodder as the practicing of religion.

This is what I disagree with.

You then proceeded to state that we need to develop sexually to become well adjusted adults, and you said it had to happen in an open, healthy, truthful way. I said that was open to interpretation.

At what point did I say that 15- and 16-year-olds shouldn't be allowed to discuss sex? That's your faulty assumption because you think you have all Christians pegged.

This is what leads you to make the statement that "it seems that Christians aren't open about it at all. Which, it seems, makes their approach unhealthy and, by proxy, untruthful."

Just because Christian parents choose to shield their children from exposure to sexual things and allow them to remain children longer than the average parent doesn't make them untruthful. That's gay-speak for you don't like how they parent.

Another assumption: You think that I am surprised that you don't think that gay sex is massively harmful. Number 1 - I never mentioned gay sex, but sexual content in general. Number 2 - the fact that you choose to wear blinders concerning your life and sexual orientation wouldn't surprise any intelligent individual.

However, since you like to throw around such statements, could you please provide any facts as to how harmful the Christian church has been?
Mind providing any evidence to support your assertions?

Another false assumption: Who said I go to church? I couldn't tell you when the last time I went to service was.

Good for you that you wake with a smile, but don't you think that's your business, not mine?

For crying out loud, empyrius...
I thought I posted novels.

The Real Two Americas
I think John Edwards was indeed on to something when he said there are "two Americas." However, I believe he misidentified them.

Here are the REAL Two Americas:

1. Those who work, invest, produce, strive, aspire, seek to better themselves, and seek to improve themselves, their childrens' prospects, & their communities, to the extent they're able. They may "have," but they earned it, & need apologize to no one about it.

2. The parasites: the elite and the "gimmes" who live off the productive, feel entitled to do so, & have the gall to accuse those off whose productivity they live, of "greed."

Religious conservatives should not fall for the sucker's line that they should support Big Sugar Daddy Pork Barrel Welfare State because it addresses the Judeo-Christian value of charity. It does not. Government giveaways are corrupt, corrupting and amount to vote buying. If the welfare state was morally good and successful, there would be few people on gvt assistance, rather than ever more, all demanding that we "gimme," all supporting the career pols who send their goons with guns to beat it out of the producers, while the 'gimmes' despise the producers for being productive.

The elitists' invocation of religious duty & out-of-context scripture quotes in support of government giveaways is disingenuous and self-serving, not righteous or scriptural.

justaguy
Hey, Justaguy/Virginia Daddy, is that Daddy bit a new thing? I mean, are you a new papa? Or you just decided to change your sign-on?

JeffRob
If you're still posting - I gotta go. May we meet again one day. Hopefully, you'll be better prepared for a real debate.

Remember what they say about battles of wits and being unarmed.

Enjoyed it.

heatseeker
Well, what can I say. I did have you pegged for an average, church-going, evangelical Christian. If you don't go to Church, though, evangelicals say you're going to hell, just like me. So, I'll see you there.

And you never mentioned that 15 or 16 year olds shouldn't be able to discuss sex. My point was that Christians choosing to "shield their children from exposure to sexual things and allow them to remain children longer" often turns into ideology hindering development. And that, you must agree, is unhealthy.

And so that would be example #1 in Christianity being harmful. Surely you must be able to admit there is some backlash to the abstinence-only, this-is-the-only-way, puritanical preaching of the evangelical church. Shouldn't we be teaching our children to be true to themselves in every aspect of their lives?

Example #2 in Christianity being harmful is the scores of homeless homosexual youth in our major cities. Their situations are all unique, to be sure, but the overwhelming constant is that their parents demanded they deny their sexuality or leave. That's just down-right unChristian.

Examples #3 through 10 would probably include the Crusades, southern Slaveholders who believed slavery was their biblical right, the Ku Klux Klan and mainstream segregationists using the Bible as the foundation of their belief, Christians being at the forefront against movements for the rights of women, minorities, immigrants, etc., John Paulk and the Ex-Gay movement and all the self-hatred and pain its caused thousands of gay men and lesbians, Ron Luce and his Teen Mania seminars where he teaches teens that gay people "need to get their plumbing checked", and, lets see, should I mention Catholic priests?

our choices are not binary
An earlier post suggest that Our Lord would not have been a Conservative either.
I tend to agree.
There are other options available to our society, options that are never even discussed because they violate the either or dichotomy of your two menu choices.
You see, the entire notion of republican vs democrat, period, is a long term conditioning process that the media feeds by ignoring all options.
Western Europe for the first 15 Centuries knew another system called, Sacred Christian Monarchy. Could it be that our Lord approved of a God-anointed Soveriegn and defender of the faith, instead of the popularity contest we have as a means of choosing the 'best' man to rule, or at least the man with the most stage talents and money to buy favorable press.

our choices are not binary
An earlier post suggest that Our Lord would not have been a Conservative either.
I tend to agree.
There are other options available to our society, options that are never even discussed because they violate the either or dichotomy of your two menu choices.
You see, the entire notion of republican vs democrat, period, is a long term conditioning process that the media feeds by ignoring all options.
Western Europe for the first 15 Centuries knew another system called, Sacred Christian Monarchy. Could it be that our Lord approved of a God-anointed Soveriegn and defender of the faith, instead of the popularity contest we have as a means of choosing the 'best' man to rule, or at least the man with the most stage talents and money to buy favorable press?

Just a thought
Capitalism is the free exchange of energy.

Human free will is the the origin of that energy.

The most fundemental choice a Man can make is to choose God or not.

Learning the value of choice in a free forum such as a Capitalist society sharpens the discriminating mind--consequences for actions.

Thus liberty pre-dates the value of equality levened as God's children in his witness.

All of which puts me in mind of Mr. Milton:

Hail horrors, hail
Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell
Receive thy new Possessor; One who brings
A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.


the big mick
I just don't understand how homosexuality can be eternally equated with pedophilia and beastiality. But I've always loved the argument going the other way: if we preach, or worse, legislate only sex between married man and woman, what's next? Only married men and women of the same race? Same religion? Same national origin? One might be a slippery slope towards amoralism, but the other is a slippery slope into facsism. I'll take the former, thanks.

Christ opposed violence
and THAT is exactly what hides behind EVERY SINGLE LAW passed.

If you don't obey, expect violence to be used to ensure you do. This includes:
1. paying for your neighbors healthcare
2. Paying for substandard schools whether you want to or not
3. Paying for the worst possible retirement plan conceivable

plenty of others to choose from.

Liberals are all about violence, don't let any fool you.


youmakemelaugh2 - your post on 2:20 PM

I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.

We've only got 2 cheeks
Jesus said there is no greater gift than a man lay down his life for his friend, right?

Also, God told us to have dominion over all the earth. Who? Those who believe. I think that means Jews and Christians. Hard to have dominion if you're dead. Same goes for spreading the Gospel.

The Old Testament is full of dead armies that oppose God and His people.

jeffrob - your post on 1:38 PM

Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.

stratus a blind fool
The only ones who DON'T think the Islamo facists want to kill us are the Democrats who undermine every effort to combat them.

The jihadis say it.
Republicans say it.
Democrats deny it.

After the first Trade Center attack, what did we do?
After the cole what did we do?
After the embassy bombings?
After the Khobar towers?

Go ask your buddies at MOVEON and DU, genuis.

The REAL threat is Fox news, right? Pathetic.

Masslib
the Jesus of whom you're speaking is an illegal alien.

Don't thread on me - your post, 5:26 PM

Right now, our economy is at the "tipping point". Just about 50% of us are producers and 50% are comsumers.

The welfare state we are now in will have more consumers than producers very soon. Then the Democrats will have everything they have always dreamed of. If more voters are consumers than producers, what voter would not vote for more taxes on the producers: they would be the ones to benefit.

Why, with all that money that the Democrats have to spend, I, also, might consider going on the welfare roles as well. But, then if EVERYONE was on welfare, who is going to pay the taxes the Democrats have promised to spend for those who have their hands out?

Jesus was a Libertarian
His dad was a big proponent of free will. Jesus did many great things without government assistance or command. He did not need a government that reinforces his morals and saw no need for a marriage of god and Caesar. Besides I'm pretty sure Jesus would agree with us Libertarians that both major parties are horrible.

Ron Paul '08

In Denial
JeffRob writes:

"And you never mentioned that 15 or 16 year olds shouldn't be able to discuss sex. My point was that Christians choosing to "shield their children from exposure to sexual things and allow them to remain children longer" often turns into ideology hindering development."

JeffRob: Every teacher is aware of the problem of children who are unable to learn as a result of early exposure to sex. Sex with children totally and PERMANENTLY derails children from the learning track. It's a surprisingly common phenomenon in various cultures. There is no age cut-off, after which child sex is OK. The general principle is that it is permanently disruptive to learning.

Christians (and Jews) are aware that the urge to have sex with children is a powerful one, and they continuously remind adults of the dangers of sexualizing children. Cultures that are oblivious to the hazards of sex with children are crippled and dysfunctional.

It is researched and documented beyond doubt that it is the children from those cultures that are hopeless and homeless, not children from Christian homes.

stratus - your post on 7:31 PM

Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...

HoserJoe
"It is researched and documented beyond doubt that it is the children from those cultures that are hopeless and homeless, not children from Christian homes."

That is because us Christians have the biggest guns right now. The pure hell we export through imperialism is completely at odds with the Christian belief.

MassachusettsLiberal
You sting like a butterfly and float like a bee.

If "Jesus was no leftist" ..
.. why are so many of his followers seduced by socialism?

The answer depends on whom you ask:

Religious conservative> Christians who buy into socialism aren't REAL Christians. Or, they're Christians who are unable to think (insert favorite pejorative phrase here for a 'mental midget') and have not read the following Scriptures ....

Religious leftist> because socialism is based on sacrifice, which is consistent with my religion. It also glorifies the downtrodden, which is also consistent with my religion. As a result - I am poor, my country is poor - but I rejoice in my Faith.

Secular leftist> I don't really have a religion, but I'm glad to have the votes of religious leftists (who are being consistent with their QUAINT faith) - while I seek parasitic control and power over those who produce wealth. PS: because of their dichotomy, I will continue to drive more religious people towards my agenda in every generation (hooray for public education), while beating up on religious conservatives for being anti-social towards the downtrodden.

Secular conservative> I am either atheistic in my personal life - or, I keep my religion away from politics. That is because I understand the inconsistency of religion and Capitalism - which is synonymous with freedom.

If the above description troubles you, IT SHOULD!
Visit http://voice.townhall.com and read a series of articles that expand on the above.

One thing Jesus WOULDN'T do
Jesus WOULDN'T use the power of the GOVERNMENT to steal from the rich and give to the poor. Every time you advocate for higher taxes you are advocating that the government take, BY FORCE IF NEEDED, money from your neighbor.

Equivocating morals
I apologize Heatseeker if I got a little long-winded, I’ll try to keep my posts shorter.

Re. Thebigmick it seems no particular race of humankind has cornered the market in barbarous war practices, and the massacre at Nanking was indeed a horrific chapter in our shared history. I am quite sure the Chinese still remember . . .

Though mere decades before the U.S. had perpetrated similar war crimes throughout many countries, notably in the Philippines we have some particularly violent episodes ourselves, as the scant information now available to us documents, whilst right here in America we were still, in the first decades of the 20th century, routinely hanging hundreds of Africans a year. Is this morally equivalent? I don’t know, maybe we could ask a Native ‘American’ . . .

A question though, when you talk about ‘MasterRace Believers’ is this a slur towards the Jews, or are you referring to ‘our’ other allies the ‘evil’ Arabian Islamofacist House of Saud? Just wondering . . .

Peace

Jesus and the GOP
Wasn't there something about Jesus turning the moneychangers out of the temple? If the past six Republican years have shown us anything, it's been that business---read: MONEY, PROFIT, RICHES--- now rules the United States of America, and if religious principles are on the table, they're definitely a side dish.

lilly
Why yes he did. A temple is afterall a place of worhship. Go figure.

Jesus was the original Liberal
You can have all the credentials you like, but helping people that are helpless is Liberal by nature. Helping people help themselves is the core of Liberalism. Jesus was the epitome of both of these theories. I'm not very religious and I don't know if he was a leftist or a rightist, but I know his teachings are the origin of modern Liberalism. I see your point however, as nowadays most Liberals have no idea what actually acting like a Liberal is.
I like to call the foul mouthed, self serving, spiteful, tree hugging (but not planting), protesters,-Neo-Libs-.
If your point is Leftists are Neo-Libs, and that Jesus was not a Leftist, I agree. If not, you need to brush up on your political spectroscopy. A lot of Conservatives that I know are truly Liberal people (compliment)and it's sad to me that the meanings of both ends of the spectrum are being diluted to the point of delusion.


will - your post of 8:01 PM

If you are still on-line, do a post to let me know and I will take a shot at providing a couple of answers to your post.

LOLz @ Jesus was a liberal
if caring for the poor and helpless makes Jesus a liberal, then a vast portion of religious people, especially evangelicals and *especially* right-wing evas, are "liberals."

Christian conservativism follows a long standing tradition of philanthropy for the poor and so-called oppressed. the only significant difference that modern liberalism* adds is to hoist that responsibility onto the government, which is notoriously inefficient and corrupt.

* (more precisely, modern liberalism is just moderate socialism wrapped in a neat package, but they call themselves "progressives" rather than socialists because they don't want to be associated with the likes of Stalin or Mao. go figure.)

what Jesus most certainly would have opposed in the left, at least in the US, is the propping up of government as god. yessiree, socialism is a secular religion, complete with it's own idol (government), messiah (again, government), canon (UN charter, or some other such nonsense), faith in a future paradise (utopia), and even inquisitions for those who are not true believers (try being outspokenly conservative on a college campus, and see how much these people truly value free speech).

oh sure sure, there are Christian leftists. just like the gnostics in the early 2nd century, it's a form of syncretism.


Hackamore
I gotta say -- Jesus seems like a Liberal to me.

Individual One of One
Being in a confessional mood I must say that there are two types of posts I alwasy respect: 1) the substantive serious addition to a discussion; 2) the amusing and funny that eschews the pointedly mean (that is has absolutely no other purpose).

But I fibbed, the best are often those that combine both.

Thanks.

The Two John Edwards
John Edwards has the "vision thing".

John Edwards is increadably wealthy.

John Edwards is convincing.

John Edwards speaks well.

John Edwards touches people.

John Edwards relates well to others.

And, I'm pretty sure , although I don't know which John Edwards it is, that he's the anti-christ.


Who says?
Who says that Christian parents don't teach their kids about sexual matters? That's just absurd.

As a pastor's wife and counselor for over 25 years, I can tell you from experience that teenagers are not ready for sexual relationships. I have seen many young lives devistated because they are too immature to handle the responsibility.

What separates us from the animal kindgom is Self Control. We can say NO to basic urges until we are married and mature enough to handle the responsibility of a sexual relationship. Many couples we see for marriage counseling regarding trust or sexual issues.... these people were sexually active before marriage. Abstinence does work - it's not a bad thing!

Regarding priests ..... that is a Catholic thing, not a biblical mandate. The Bible clearly states that it is better to marry rather than to burn with lust. And who would you rather see regarding marriage problems or child raising issues? A minister who is married and has kids or a priest who has no experience whatsoever? The Catholic church would do much better to allow priests to marry. You don't have to be single to serve the Lord.

Exporting pure hell?
Georgie Bush posted:

"The pure hell we export through imperialism is completely at odds with the Christian belief."

I don't live in the USA, but the sacrifices of the American people makes my life a whole lot better than it would be. I get to use American machines, eat America foods, fly in America airplanes, use American tools, use American drugs to save my children, read American books that make my life better. It's not hell that America exports - it's many, MANY wonderful blessings. The American people don't know me, but they work overtime to make my life better.

Stratus Shmatus
Re: Pretty much everything you wrote.

John 8:42-43 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but He sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say."

Testing 4 5 6 . . .
I'm back from the beyond, but my earlier post on that matter has vanished.

Town Hall seems to be having some serious ongoing technical difficulties. Among other things, I had a post here and now it's gone. (I remember one from Critical Bill around the same time and that's gone too.)

I'll repeat my one and only point. (Not that there's anybody left here by now.)

It's strange to hear people say Jesus is Left or Right. It's kind of like saying the yardstick is short or long.

And I'll add one more point: I give Prager credit for having the wisdom of limiting his commentarty to saying what Jesus is NOT in his assertion that Jesus is not a Leftist. True. Incomplete. But true.




Jesus seems like a liberal
That is absolutely hilarious! Jesus was neither a conservative nor a liberal. He was a revolutionary who came to save humankind from their sins. Whoever claims Jesus as a political fellow is kidding himself. If EVERYONE would quit worrying about the politics of the Lord and started following His example, the world would be a much better place.

the third way
Americans know very little about it, but for the frist 1,500 years, Men and women lived under Kings and Kingdoms, and when the Church gained official recognition we had Christian Kingdoms.
The system worked very well for all folks and it wasn't until a bunch of infidels and free thinkers took the notion of 'Liberty, Fraternity, and Equality', that the French started the demise of Sacred Christian Monarchy.
And what do we now have in America?
A bunch if ungodly nutcases throwing scorn on all things holy and decent and seeking to eliminate all moral laws. "After all, without God, morality is whatever you want it to be."
Perhaps this is the inevitable end run of such a government that has elevated the will of the people over the voice of God.
Even our so-called 'Supreme Court' fails to own a supreme source of truth or law, other than their myopic opinions.
The constitution seems to be a regular chameleon in the hands of our noble black robed justices

So, I don't think our Lord would bother with either one of the two major parties in America.
He wouldn't be welcome anyhow.

Hey Verbivore
I just got tired of being just a guy...

And I have two little ones under the age of two...

Keeps me busy.

And Dottie-- yes, but trouble is that those who follow Him are likely to engage in some sort of politics and it is inevitable that we must guess where He would fall in the spectrum.

I agree, He would not be very political, but chances are He would fall more to the right on almost all issues...

Sure, He would hang with the sinners (gays, etc; easy example) but He would NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANE condone their behavior. This is important to distinguish...

Humm
All posts now present and accounted for today. But, I know what I didn't see yesterday.

I wonder if Rod Serling is smoking a cigarette and talking in the background here at TH.

Jesus' Disciples Were Not Leftists
Even if Jesus was, which I do not believe, Paul was not. One of my favorite verses, 2 Th. 3:10, this quote from Eugene Peterson's Message:

Don't you remember the rule wa had when we lived with you? "If you don't work, you don't eat."

dullhammer
As you observed not just you, and unfortunately not just here.

A think a fungus wart was trolling around and acting out a tantrum.

Jesus was no liberal
Luke 22:36

Matthew 25:1 through 25:46

In both cases, sounds like Jesus is advocating a fairly conservative viewpoint.

Jesus
"Think not that I have come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And 'a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me ...."
(Matt:34-40).

No he was not a pacifist, but this clearly states if not a follower you are damned.

With regards,

A Deist

Allen
Allen writes: Tuesday, March, 13, 2007 12:41 AM
Both he right AND left need to stop ....
with the "what would Jesus do" tripe.

It's trite.


To say nothing of being arrogantly presumptious, as well.

Kathy

When God approached Adam and asked him if he would like a "helpmate", Adam thought for a moment and said,

"What's it going to cost me?

God said, "An arm and a leg."

After thinking about it, Adam said, "What can I get for a rib?"

Jesus' politics
What does Prager know about Jesus?

That Jesus was not a leftist is true. But Christ certainly would not have supported the foolish invasion of Iraq. Can you imagine him flying over Bagdad and dropping bombs? I believe he even commanded us to love our enemies!

Three groups helped push us into that senseless war.

First, of course, are the violent Muslim crazies who, by the way, revere Jesus as a prophet. There is more about the Virgin Mary in the Koran than in the Bible.

Second, the Religious Right which seems to think that war is somehow holy. Most (not all) are wrapped up in the Armageddon nonsense and eager for that horrendous battle. Like the Muslim crazies, they don't live in the real world. Like thse same Muslims, they too worship a book rather than God.

Third, a bunch of chickenhawks, many of them atheists. I'm thinking of Jewish neo-cons, many ex-leftists, even former Trotskyite communists. They don't believe in God but do believe in Israel, no matter what - their first loyalty. Fortunately, many other American Jews think differently, and realize that Israel is digging its own grave (and the graves of fine, young Americans in Iraq), but the power of AIPAC & Co. is powerful.

Cheney is a member of this third group, a radical (not conservative) faction, though he's not an atheist. He is so influenced by the oil industry and so self-absorbed with power that he wants the USA to dominate the world. Eisenhower wisely worried about the military-industrial complex - and for good reason.

Bush? A puppet. I even think he might be a decent guy married to a very decent woman. But he's too immature yet to escape easy brain-washing by sinister forces around him. It's a national tragedy that he was leading our nation when 9/11 occurred. We needed to demolish the terrorist camps in Afghanistan, but to attack Iraq was inexcusable. Lots of Democrats are on my 'stupid' list, too, among them Hillary. Hagel is looking better and better.

Keep smiling.


"Jesus Was No Leftist"
Jesus' emphases upon self-sacrifice and the road of the cross transcend all political, philosophical, and religious boundaries and cut to the chase of what it means to slash the fetters of human pride and unshrivel the penury of the human spirit through service to God and others.

Try some of these verses
Matthew 10:34-35 and Luke 22:35-37

For more of what I think go to http://straightouttadenver.com/?p=95#respond

3 cheers to Dennis
I've said it time & time again & will repeat it. Dennis, you are brilliant at helping us to see how the pieces fit together & it seems so obvious in hindsight. It was said on another thread by someone & I will second it: You are gifted & a great human being.
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