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Tuesday, February 06, 2007
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Liberals Don't Ask "What Happens Next?"
by Dennis Prager
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In general, the Left does not ask the question, "What will happen next?" when formulating social policy. Not thinking through the long-range consequences of their positions is liberalism's tragic flaw.

Take almost any position that distinguishes the Left:

Will higher taxes help the economy?

The major reason the Left advocates tax increases is not that these tax increases will help the American economy. Higher taxes rarely help the economy, and most liberals don't even make that argument. Their argument is about equality, the Left's paramount value. The animating factor for the Left is narrowing the gap between the rich and poor. That is why so few on the Left have had moral problems with Fidel Castro's totalitarian regime -- Cubans may not have liberty, but almost all Cubans are equally poor. Likewise, that explains left-wing support for Venezuela's Hugo Chavez even as he develops into a Castro-like dictator: He advocates economic equality.

Is continued illegal immigration good for America or for Mexico?

Regarding illegal immigration, what most concerns the Left is not the consequences of illegal immigration. It is compassion for the illegal immigrant. Now, I happen share that concern -- were I a poor Mexican seeing no hope for me or my children in my corrupt homeland, I, too, would try to enter America illegally. But it is not enough to have compassion for the illegal immigrant; the responsible citizen needs to consider the consequences of vast numbers of people illegally entering his country. If America is increasingly unable to sustain -- economically, demographically, in terms of crime -- the great number of illegal immigrants, it is incumbent on all responsible people to figure out how to stem the flow of illegal immigrants. It is not even good for Mexico, because it enables that country to avoid needed reforms. Any country that knows its poorest citizens can go to another country from which they will also send back billions of dollars is hardly being pressured into doing anything about its poverty.

Is bilingual education good for immigrant children?

Here, too, compassion trumps effectiveness. The country that has successfully assimilated the greatest percentage of immigrants is Israel, and that country does not have bilingual education. Immigrant children in its public schools are immersed in Hebrew, despite the fact that Hebrew is far more difficult than English is for most of its immigrants (especially those speaking Latin languages). But it is not what works that matters for liberals advocating bilingual education; it is their perception of compassion and multiculturalism.

Does affirmative action help black students?

The Left supports colleges changing admissions standards to enable more African Americans, among other minorities, to enroll. Despite all the evidence that such policies often hurt minority students -- they fail or drop out of college at greater rates than other students; they are not prepared for the demands of a more elite college; they feel they are seen as not having entered the college on their own merits -- liberals continue to support race-based affirmative action. It may not help blacks, but they nevertheless deserve it because of America's racist past.

What would the Kyoto Protocols do to the American and world economies?

As noted by the internationally respected Danish environmentalist Professor Bjorn Lomborg, the economic price America would pay if it abided by the Kyoto Protocols on carbon emissions would catastrophically impact the American -- and therefore world -- economy. Moreover, abiding by the Protocols would have a negligible effect on carbon emissions and global warming. But the Left has embraced global warming hysteria. And hysteria it is -- according to the latest UN report, for example, the potential ocean level increase due to global warming is 1 foot, not the 20 feet of Al Gore's documentary on global warming and lower than the 1.5 feet projected in the previous UN report.

Would withdrawal from Iraq increase or decrease human suffering?

Left-wing "peace activists" do not seem to concern themselves with the question of what happens if their policies are enacted and America leaves Iraq. But those of us who are concerned with this question are certain that war and murder, torture and rape of the innocent will increase. That is why "peace activist" is usually a misnomer. They usually bring war, not peace.

Does nationalized health insurance work?

Press reports and formal studies about Canada's and Britain's health care strongly suggest that those nationalized health care systems provide increasingly poor care to their nations' citizens. But for those on the Left who want nationalized health insurance to come to America, Sweden is the preferred model, as if a relatively tiny, homogeneous, nearly all-middle-class country provides a more effective model than Canada or the United Kingdom.

In the view of many liberals, "What happens next?" is a pragmatic, but not idealistic, question by which to guide social policy. In fact, however, no question is as idealistic as "What happens next?" Asking it means that social policy is made by noble and compassionate minds, not hearts alone. In the rest of life, thinking through the consequences of actions is called "responsible" and "mature." Those remain worthy goals in public life as well.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Left-wing "peace activists"
So, according to Mr. Prager, only those he describes as left-wing are peace activists. Oh, except when Bill Clinton got us involved in the liberation of the former Yugoslavia, which ended ethnic cleansing, torture and rape of the innocent.

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now." - Tom DeLay


Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-Mississippi) is expected to introduce legislation that would bar the Pentagon from spending money on Yugoslavia operations without congressional authorization. And Lott's chief deputy predicted that authorization would not be forthcoming.

"I don't think the president wants us to vote up-and-down on authorizing the use of force, because I don't think that would pass in the Congress," said Sen. Don Nickles (R-Oklahoma) on ABC's "This Week."

"The administration has not come forward with a convincing plan," Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Arizona) said on "Fox News Sunday." "To simply bomb at this point without any strategy is not a good thing for the United States or NATO to do."

Now, what was that about left-wing peace activists?



better than his usual neoCON prattle
Bilingual education IS INDEED a terrible idea... so says the former latino Congressman who authored the legislation requiring it. He said that he had hoped it would ease the transition to English for latinos, but instead they leaned on it and eschewed learning English, dooming them to be balkanized and poor.

As a Jew, Prager opposes affirmative action... to their credit, Jews are always way overrepresented proportionately in colleges and grad schools, so they view AA as a threat to what they earn on aptitude and dedication. He is correct that AA does lead to PC social promotions which can result in failure.

Prager is correct that we MUST, ABSOLUTELY stanch the flow of ILLEGAL ALIENS. However, liberals want them here NOT out of compassion, BUT for voting power... liberalism matters only to the extent that it can control the govt. and foist entitlements upon the madding crowd, because that allows the "elites" to have power-- and Big Brother knows best what is best for YOU! the way to stop ILLEGALS is to require a tamper-proof I.D. card for NON-citizens to function while VISITING america-- to work, go to school/college, get licenses, seek emergency services, pass go, etc. We should make them repatriate to apply for it; do a thorough vetting; then we could track work status, crimes, taxes paid, services sought, etc. WE then regain control of what should never have been lost, except for the nonfeasance of government, led by quisling Presidente Jorge.

National health insurance fails everywhere because government fails when it tries to deliver ANY service... government must be limited to making laws for order and to limit abuses, and defend borders and protect sovereignty, but nothing more. This has been true throughout history everywhere. Similarly, taxes are a drain on productive functions and must be minimized and employed specifically and with careful scrutiny-- lest we get bridges to nowhere costing millions for 50 island dwellers.

Illegals
I don't know why or if liberals want illegal workers here, but I know that business does, and I'm not just talking fruit and vegetable farmers.

The main reason is that the average Hispanic illegal is a hard, dependable worker.

The worker pool for jobs paying less than $10 an hour is very shallow in many markets. In many cases it's the people with drug and alchohol problems, or just those Americans who have no decent work ethic thanks to 40 years of government welfare programs that took the incentive out of the American dream.

The real problem is that along with the dedicated worker come the drug runners, the criminals, the families taking advantage of the welfare and health systems and the inevitable barrio.

But, again, it's not just a liberal/conservative division on this issue. Rep. Chris Cannon,(R-Ut) is a rabid illegal worker advocate. But then, unemployment in Utah is less than 2%, which is full employment. Take away the tens of thousands of illegals that work in numerous industries, many for well above average wages, and the economy takes a major hit.

Read Dr. Sowell's book titled:
"Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One"

This book deals with several examples that are along the lines of the examples in Dennis Prager's article.

In another book, "The Vision of the Annointed", Dr. Sowell has answered the question of "how do Leftist elites see themselves in the context of their failed, disproved theories?"

My question is "what do you do when people refuse to think beyond stage one?"

When you couple misguided actions with noble intentions, you're still left with the results of the actions! But, in a democracy, all of us suffer the consequences.

Incidentally, if you are interested in reading about the Tortilla crisis in Mexico (amusing, from afar) - and the ominous parallel to the imminent establishment of Universal Health Care in these United States (not so amusing, eh mis amigos?), please visit:

http://voice.townhall.com/g/a61ebb3a-506b-49dc-8cd7-b6dfe624a76f

The article is titled: "Of Tortillas .. and Men" but it could very well have been titled: no más tortillas para Juan!

Use your heart, not your head.
Sometimes one has to toss aside the statistics and historical data and just go for what feels right. Prager quotes a lot of facts and makes several points, but he fails to recognize that not all decisions should be made based on such material.

Higher taxes may or may not help the economy, but they do help the little guy's self esteem when he sees the government giving a knockout blow to a big corporation. The guy that cannot afford to pay his bills will be cheered up when he hears a story about a rich person being taxed at an extremely high level. Such actions will make poor folks feel like somebody is sticking it to the rich people that held them down, and that is more important than the economy.

Illegal immigration may cause a stress on the social services programs, raise crime rates, and weaken our identity as a nation, but the alternative is to adopt a stance that could be perceived as racists against hispanics. It is better to lose the nation than to appear offensive.

Bilingual education helps immigrants hold on to their culture and heritage, and it is bigoted to expect others to adopt American ways just because they live here. Immigrants from other countries should be allowed to live by the laws and customs of their homelands rather than be forced to bend their ways into an American ideal. All that matters is that the immigrants are happy, other consequences are best ignored.

The help affirmative action may or may not give is irrelevant. It is a method whereby whites can level the playing field for minorities. Since people of other races are inherently inferior and cannot make it on their own without help from whites, we know in our hearts that affirmative action is a proper policy. This is a staple of Democratic philosophy, and any deviation from the practice just because of some statistics is just wrong.

The Kyoto protocol should be adopted as a means of placing a hobble on our capitalist system. If we are to ever achieve a socialists utopia, we have to crush the attraction to capitalism. Kyoto does this quite well by giving exclusions to the most socialist of regimes, so all economic data aside, the Kyoto accords should be adopted. We know that in spite of the data that indicates otherwise, capitalism harms people: our hearts tell us so.

The ending of a war is all that matters, for it stops the killing. War equals killing, and no war is ever justified. Therefore, regardless of any counter arguments or historical references to Cambodia, we know that stopping war means that killing is stopped. One does not need to use a brain to come to that conclusion.

Nationalized health care means everyone gets the same quality of service, that is all. If everyone gets poor service, that is fine because the service is egalitarian in spirit. This method is better than allowing some people to get high quality service while others only get mediocre service. It is more fair for everyone to get the same service, even if the end result is a lower grade of service for everyone. As long as the result is evenly distributed, then it is fair. And your heart knows that fair always means good.

As these examples prove, sometimes one has to make decisions based on the heart, not on the head. Statistics, facts, and history only tend to cloud the decisions that should come only from ones heart. Therefore, when one speaks only with his heart, there is no need to use anything that may be in his head.

To utahnotmorman
Your points are disingenuous regarding the statements made by the Republicans. These statements were made with respect to Herr Klinton’s foray into Bosnia WITHOUT congressional authorization. His position was that since this was a NATO operation he did not require the approval of congress. If Bush had invaded Iraq without congressional approval he would already have been impeached by the Republican led congress. Note that a few of the Republicans took this issue to court for being in violation. The court ruled that they had no standing to sue. I am waiting for this to come up under a Republican president.

Dennis
Evidently there is something in the water politicians drink because the Republicans do not think things through either. Neither side of the aisle has in a long time.

Oh, there were a few lucid moments around 9/11, but it quickly went back to business as usual.

What is business as usual? That being the primary concern of politicians; re-election.

Recent ridiculous statements and resolutions by both sides of both Houses have defined the moment clearly, time to think of re-election and pander to whatever voting bloc suits you best.

There are no Statesmen, only Politicians.

utah
Not all those jobs you speak of are left for drug and alcohol users. I know many people who are working two jobs to make ends meet. There are students and seniors who take these lower paying jobs also. Seniors have a cap on what they can make and also need to make ends meet.
I just wouldn't lump everyone into this category you made.
And, not all Hispanics are hard working either. Our lawn service laid off all their American workers who had worked for this lawn service for years and replaced them with Hispanics. They do a worse job.


Pappy
Not only do these politicians not think, they stink as does illegal immigration, socialism, and the UN.

LD
Are you sure you won't let me publish this in my local paper??? I promise to send you a copy if you are published...People won't know what to do with your satire and they will come out swinging to defend their reality!!!

I'm Sad To Report...
as one who spotted Loyal Democrats 'satire' early on when many of the blowhard posters on this site didn't, I think he/she is becoming a little too obvious in their posts. A touch more subtlety is in order i think.

Selfishness
To me the key issue behind todays liberalism is selfishness.

I reference the examples that the author gave about "compassion trumps effectiveness".

The author is wrong. It is not a case of where liberals made trade offs between multiple courses of action it is merely a case of where people see a situation and "want to do something" and the motivating factor is their desire to feel good/self-righteous about themselves -- ie selfishness.

If a person really wanted to help they would apply common sense and consider the long term implications of the policies they advocate and the actions they take and then make a choice independent of how it made them feel personally.

Those who are selfish are not willing to acknowledge that the problems they are now seeing are the result of the programs they advocate, they are not willing to examine the basic assumptions behind those programs. Why? I claim it is because of selfishness. It is the unwillingness to put the welfare of others before their desire to "feel good about themselves" (ie, to feel self-righteous).

If I acknowledge that the policies I advocate are flawed then I have to acknowledge that at least some of my assumptions about life are flawed, that what I have advocated has hurt other people and thus instead of feeling good about myself I feel a burden of guilt and responsibility for the results of my actions upon others.

It is soooo much easier to instead look at a situation and say "gee this is bad we need to do something or do more than we are doing now" and thus make myself feel good since I am showing "compassion".

Is it time for a third party?
Dennis,

You are correct once again. Liberals don't think through what they advocate. The majority of those on the left simply follow their party's illogical mantra.

The left is not concerned about the results of their positions. They merely follow the leftist agenda. They are much like lemmings. They will follow their leader right to their own death.

Or in this case, they will follow leftist policies right into the degradation and demise of America itself.

As a life-long Republican, I am very disturbed by the conduct of my party since the 1994 Contract With America began to fade away from the scene.

I do not like anyone who has announced so for 2008 yet. I refuse to vote for a pro-abortion, anti-gun Republican like Guiliani.

Perhaps it's time for the true patriots in America to seek out a Reagan-like candidate from a third party.

Is it time to seriously consider a Libertarian? A Constitution Party candidate? Or will some Republican emerge from the shadows and begin to act the way real American patriots would like?

Perhaps it's time for a third party? Especially if a McCain or a Guiliani get the repub nomination.

Marc Richardson
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com

We don't need no stinking consequences
If you expect the two generations of GrabbyBabies Dr. Spock has bestowed upon this country (and Kanukistan, only up here we had Trudeau to boot) to refocus their attention beyond the toy they want this instant or the gratification that lies just out of reach, you are dreaming. Everything in the culture tells us that the only road to happiness is to grab what you want right now and leave the scene. Don't think of the chaos you'll leave behind. Just like that half-empty coffee cup and that half-chewed slice of pizza, when it leaves your field of vision, IT'S GONE!

Just Do It!

Consequences? That's some four-syllable word they don't teach anywhere these days. There aren't any consequences when we've all got LAWYERS! And we don't hire a lawyer to tell us what we can't do or what we should not have done. We pay him the big bucks so he can convince the community that the laws and the rules don't apply to us!

Recently I saw the quintessential sign of today's society. It was one of those stupid diamond-shaped yellow signs in the back window of a car. It said "Baby on Board -- With His Lawyer."

Sorry, Prager is wrong
Progressives do, indeed, consider the long-term consequences of the policies they advocate. Their guiding principle is invariably as follows;

"Western Civilization is evil.

"The United States, as the linchpin of that evil, is Satan personified.

"Therefore, we must articulate positions and establish policies which do the maximum amount of damage to the United States. Either to change it, or utterly destroy it.

"For once it is gone, we can build a brave new world of egalitarian utopianism on its ruins.

"And if anyone else in the world doesn't follow our example at that point, we'll always have the leftover nuclear arsenal to....persuade.... them to our POV with."

The progressive crowd's hatred of the United States, its Constitution, and everything it stands for seems to have begun in the post-Civil War period, when most progressives were, oddly enough, Republicans. This was the period when progressivism in this country decided to hitch its wagon to that new, rising star, Marxism. They kept their noses firmly up against that hitching-post right up through the 1990s, in spite of two world wars, assorted purges in Russia (that they pretended never happened), various "wars of national liberation" (that they insisted were none of our business), and constant espionage and terrorist activity here and abroad (that they both sympathized with and assisted whenever they could). In the process, the "progressives" drifted from the Republican to the Democratic side, principally in the period between the first two World Wars. Exactly why is hard to discern, except possibly because after the Depression, the Democrats were in the ascendant in a way they hadn't been since Apomattox, and they wanted to be on what they thought was the winning side.

Today, the progressives advocate a hodge-podge of philosophies, ranging from old-line socialism to multicultural egalitarianism to (in a strange twist for a group that is predominantly agnostic, except for the out-and-out Gaia-worshippers) a sort of patchouli-scented religion calling itself "Liberal Christianity" or even "Islamic Socialism". What has never changed is their fundamental philosophy. Namely, that Western Civilization is evil and must be destroyed at all costs.

This is why all their policies do damage. That's exactly what they are intended to do. Like Nixon, they believe that "If the end is moral, the means are also moral".

And anyone who gets hurt in the process probably had it coming, on general principles. After all, "Sacrifices must be made in the name of the Cause."

Or if you prefer Bonaparte's version, "You can not make an omelette without breaking a few eggs".


cheers

eon

Be specific please
"Whose taxes, by how much, and why" are never divulged when politicians say "raise taxes." Republicans have spent like Democrats wouldn't dare for the last six years, while lowering billionaire's taxes during wartime. Democrats tax and spend, Republicans just spend and spend. Which is more sustainable? Which is more responsible?

Bush wants immigration jacked up, not the U.S. labor force, which would be bludgeoned by such an increase in labor supply. Liberal votes would be nice, but diluting the labor supply is not the answer. We can't be shooting people at the border, but there's gotta be some balance here.

Liberal California shot down bilingual education, and immigrant children have done better as a result. Who is calling for this?

Affirmative Action needs to start in grammar school, by teaching our children that no one chooses their skin color, no one is blessed or cursed by it, no one earns or is punished by it, it is a simply a variable quantity of melanin that is as meaningless as eye color, or height, or hair color, or shoe size... it means nothing. NOTHING. It is nothing to be proud or ashamed of. It is a historic precondition of your life over which you had no control. Our ancestors were ignorant about color, just as they would drown babies with birthmarks, they thought color was a measure of "human-ness". We know better now. Show it.

No one thinks sucking 85 million barrels of oil out of the ground and releasing it into the skies every single day has no effect on the global environment. Get real. This thin skin surrounding earth called the biosphere is a limited resource. We must stop pooping in our living room. We must stop belching million-years-old sequestered carbon back into the skies. This is suicide for profit. And if you are one of those jerks who are poo-pooing a hundred years from now because you won't be here, shame on you. A hundred years is the blink of an eye for humankind. There are Christmas fruitcakes still being passed around older than that, you selfish bastards.

Whatever we do in Iraq, it's clear now that the bozos driving the bus have gone off the cliff. Our leaders have admittedly bungled this cluster. Why are they still driving? Get them out of the way. Put other Republicans in charge, I don't care. But the current leaders have proved repeatedly that they don't know what they're doing. How many times do they get to be wrong?

Nationalized health care means there's profit in the cure, not the treatment. Aren't you sick to death of the "me too" drugs on TV? Our profit model is inventing nothing but an industry that can hold us hostage to pain, suffering and even death for a buck. Besides, Canada spends 9% of their GDP for full coverage, while we spend 15% for terrible coverage. It's cheaper for business, too. Just ask the auto industries who move to Canada because they don't have to supply healthcare to their workers there. Duh. Hello, McFly?

It's hysterical how conservatives say "liberals want this bla bla bla," then state their strawman and bash it down. They don't get liberals, or they'd be one. They simply project their own inner fears and hyperbole onto people they don't understand. That's why they are so wrong so often, and why they are now the minority.

I will wager
that any one of us could muster 100 friends and fellow posters to this board and others to replace the entire US Senate. That new body would be closer to the original intent of the founding fathers and a faaaar cry from this collection of self serving poseurs we have now.
Would that we were in charge for 30 days with a mandate to unwind the mess these fools have made.
To listen to them pander you have to think."do they think we are that stupid?" or are they that ignorant?
In reality it is both and we are being steamrolled once again by them and their manipulation of the politically unsophisticated

eon - king of satire!
Progressives like Nixon, hating the Constitution... that's funny stuff!

LIBERALS
I still think libs would do what they do because to them failure is a virtue. Failed liberal programs lead to more failed liberal programs.

Illegal stereotype
The author said . . "were I a poor Mexican seeing no hope for me or my children in my corrupt homeland, I, too, would try to enter America illegally"

I really question several of the elements in this statement.

First we hear so often that all the illegals are dirt poor with no money and thus no means to support themselves. But then you hear about the illegals recently caught and being deported that they paid $10K or $14K per family member from their savings to get into the US illegally.

Excuse me but how many families in the US have $14K or more in savings? If the family had that much in savings why then could they not start a business in Mexico or move to a different part of Mexico for a better job, etc.?

So Dennis lets not make generalizations about how there is no hope for people in Mexico when evidently a percentage of those coming here illegally were evidently in better financial condition than most families here in the US.

Oh and while I am stepping on peoples toes, what about the large families in Mexico and the high birth rate. what about the responsibility of a Man to provide for his family or to at least think about if he can provide for additional children before he concieves more kids.

Gee, why does personal responsibility always go out the window to be replaced by it is the Churches fault or it is okay for me to do illegal things, to harm others, because of the situation I am in, etc, etc.

I also object at least to a certain extent to the authors comments, also made by many others like Bill O'Rilley, that if they lived in Mexico they also would come here illegally.

Excuse me, what about breaking the law does not matter to you people? Since when is it okay just because I am poor for me to break the law and thus to harm other people by stealing social security numbers, by undercutting the wages of people who are natives of this country, by degrading the quality of the education of the schools thus hurting native born kids, by clogging up the emergency rooms since I do not pay for my own health care insurance thus costing the taxpayers billions and reducing needed health care services to the community I illegally live in, by making the border easier for drug smugglers and terrorists to cross since they can hide among all the illegals, and on and on.

Excuse me but when did all that become "right" and okay to do because I am poor.

If it is "right" to do so and something that people like Praeger and O'Rilley would do then why would it not be okay for people in the inner cities of our country to go into the more wealthy areas and to take what they "need" from those people? I am not sure that I see the "difference" between the two situations. People in the inner city often feel without hope and that the system is corrupt, etc., so why would they not be justified by taking from others that are better off than they are?

How can people like Preager and O'Rilley on one hand talk about how people in the inner city need to take responsibility for their own actions and situations, and on the other hand say that if they were in Mexico they would violate multiple laws, etc., to come here illegally.

I remember O'Rilley being harsh on the Afghans since he felt they did not stand up to the Taliban and he is now harsh on the Iraqi's since they do not seem willing to stand up to religious violence. Well why does he demand these people "do the right thing" when he says that if he lived in Mexico with its corruption that he would NOT stand up against it but would instead illegaly enter the US.

I must admit that if I lived in a country that was very corrupt like Mexico I would be very tempted to do what I had to do to leave but I also understand that if everyone had that attitude that then evil would succeed since all it takes is for good men to do nothing.

I think that people like Prager need to be advocating that "good men stand up against evil" instead of saying that if they were in a corrupt country that they would NOT stand up against corruption and would instead violate laws and thus harm others.

Mr. Prager, if you are going to be advocating positions, if you are going to be telling others what is wrong with their positions lets then try and be a little more consistent with your own principles.

Yeah, I know, easy for me to say but hard to do. God bless.

Ron

Leftists, not selfish enough!
And no, this isn't an attempt at satire .. I leave that to the experts.

It is the altruist gene, stupid, but not accompanied with a particularly strong version of the IQ-gene.

Read "Why some good, religious people are Liberals" at:
http://voice.townhall.com/g/982f7839-468b-477d-ba97-559e5598b335

Religious conservatives have to think PAST the concept of altruism - or, approach it from the 'pragmatic' school that says "socialism doesn't work, so it doesn't achieve altruistic goals". That requires some smarts!

Religious liberals (who lack the aforesaid IQ gene) get muddled in their religious/mystical sense of altruism. To them, as long as the intentions are noble, any action that can be wrapped up in soft words such as 'sacrifice' are also noble. And, they will defend the actions against all factual data.

And yes - for the liberals who take umbrage at this classification - there are IQ-deprived conservatives too, who are conservatives ONLY because of tradition. Sort of like being a Bears or Colts fan for generations, but not really knowing why.

The common thread
The one thing all of Prager's points have in common is this: The described Liberal policies are all about people being able to feel good about themselves.

They want to be able to go out into the streets proclaiming "I'm a good person" and they think that the way to do it is to make a show of helping the "less fortunate." And because they make that token show of "compassion" they consider themselves to be morally superior to the rest of us.

The problem is that at best they are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound and at worst they are causing the wound so they can be seen putting the bandaid on it.

Consider Mark 12:41-44

"[Jesus] sat down opposite the treasury and observed how the crowd put money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. A poor widow also came and put in two small coins worth a few cents. Calling his disciples to himself, he said to them, 'Amen, I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the other contributors to the treasury. For they have all contributed from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has contributed all she had, her whole livelihood.'"

The rich people in the story make a show of their "generosity" while the poor woman does what she can, probably wanting to go unnoticed. Real compassion doesn't come from the desire for accolades or awards or recognition. It comes from the desire to do the right thing. And the right and compassionate thing may not be all warm and fuzzy. You may need to be harsh and demanding sometimes. You may have to tell people to accept a lesser position (school, job, whatever) because they don't qualify for the higher one. And you will definitely have to hold people accountable when they do something wrong. If you don't do that, they will continue to do the wrong thing and the consequences that you can't control will catch up to them.

Nationalized health services
For those who want to know about nationalized health services, I suggest they look into the Brazilian public health system. There, the lines of patients waiting for attendance at the health posts, most times go around the block, all day long. People start forming these lines the night before, and quite often go home without seeing a doctor. Frequently doctors simply don't show up for work. Oh yes! doctors earn the magnificent sum of US 75 cents per patient, and tendo to practice "battlefield medice", attending only those who are practically dying. Quite often, there are rummors and accusations about doctors stealing boxes and boxes of medication, from the public health system, and use them in their own private clinics. It is a perfect public health system, which should be coppied by the USA, and all other undevelopped nations.

showcasing compassion.
While many leftists are genuinely concerned with the poor and downtrodden(even if leftist "solutions" often exacerbate the poor's plight), some on the left just glom onto this issue simply to showcase their supposed "moral superiority" over the rest of us.

They would have us believe they operate on a higher moral and ethical plane than us.

I don't know how true this is, but I read where a few years ago during Thanksgiving or Christmas in Los Angeles, the actor Martin Sheen became obsessed over the plight of the homeless.

This compassionate actor purchased a number of dinners to be distributed to homeless shelters.

But the good actor was faced with a cruel dilemma: How to showcase his humanitarianism(complete with camera crews filming this magnificent event)without violating the code of an organization that's one of the left's most sacred cows...the People For Ethical Treatment of Animals(PETA)...sorry about the pun.

While wrestling with this most vexing question, a moment of clarity, an insight of sheer brillance, illuminated the mind of this "West Wing" actor.

Tofu! That is the solution.

He purchased Tofu dinners(simulated Turkey)for the Los Angeles homeless.

His numerous friends among the hollywood glitterati were oozing with envy!

For here in one bold stroke, Mr. Sheen not only showcased his humanitarianism for all the world to see, but he did so in an avian-friendly manner..consistent with not sacrificing our feathered friends simply to fill the bellys of the Los Angeles homeless.

It did not seem to matter that the camera crew at this well publicized event recorded a query from one homeless person to another, who, upon partaking of the first bite of this sumptuous meal, earnestly asked: "just what is this crap"?

No. What mattered to the Hollywood glitterati was the masterful manner in which the "West Wing" actor skillfully intertwined two hot-button issues of our leftist friends...the homeless issue and the animal rights lobby.

You could say Mr. Sheen killed two birds with one stone.

Kind of.

Clintoon & terrorism...
utahnotmormon writes: "Oh, except when Bill Clinton got us involved in the liberation of the former Yugoslavia, which ended ethnic cleansing, torture and rape of the innocent."

While Albania was at one time a "nation of peace", Islamo-fascists from Turkey infiltrated the nation and, using terrorism, turned it into an Islamic state of terrorists which then attacked the Serbians.

The Serbian freedom fighters used the same tactics against the Islamo terrorists of Albania that the Islamic state of Albania had against them. Fascist Clintoon sided with the Islamo-fascists, denying the Serbian freedom fighters the right to fight the Islamo terrorists on their own level (though Clintoon used tactics similar to those of the Islamo-fascists against USA citizens in Waco - torturing innocent men, women & children).

I wish Jabelson and Congressive...
...would leave the satire to Loyal Democrat.He does a much better job.

Islamification
The biggest way in which leftists don't think ahead is the way in which they have allied themselves with Muslims and are willing to make every accommodation to Muslims that they can. I want to shout at them, "Can't you see where this is leading?" When leftists allied themselves with Muslims in Iran in the 1970s to get rid of the Shah, it was the leftists who were the losers once the Shah was gone. The Muslims elbowed aside the leftists, and even executed a lot of them, and forced Iranian society to move in a very anti-progressive direction.

And anyone who thinks things will turn out differently this time should ponder the murder of Theo van Gogh.

The big question now is, When will American women be forced to wear burqas? Why leftists want to throw away the last forty years of progress for women so that they can end up even further from gender equality than we were in the 1950s is beyond me.

Jabelson
I won't argue the merits of the current war, each has our own beliefs about that, neither is likely to change. As my father used to tell me, "Never butt heads with a butthead".

But I will mention the disastrous costs of another war, one bought into and sold entirely by liberals, one that has been fought for 42-plus years, at the cost of over 3 Trillion dollars, untold human cost, and not one iota of success. Not a single thing has been accomplished by LBJ's "War on Poverty", which was going to eliminate poverty in this country once and for all.

Now, if you want to look up the numbers, you will find that there are just as many poor around today as there were in 1964. The difference is that 70% of black babies are now illegitimate, the result of 42 years of subsidizing illegitimacy. We have gone from a nation of proud, get-it-done individuals to a bunch of whining, I just wants what's coming to me, parasites. If you libs want to protest war, there's a good one to start with.

Do They Have Eyes to See?
If only The Left would listen to you, Dennis, we'd all be better off. You're right, The Left cares more about perception than actual solutions. As long as they feel compassionate, then that's all that matters. Their sins have blinded them to the truth and they do what is right in their own eyes. (This doesn't mean that folks on The Right are without sin, but that The Left seems to have little, or no, grasp of sin and their own self-deception in the first place.)
Kevin L. Howard, http://www.NeedNotFret.com

Seeing himself
Prager looks out the window and sees only himself. This administration is famous for is short sightedness. Rather than answer all his points, here are jus two:

Iraq: as they say in the home of the Yankees, puleeze! Anyone would have to work hard to plan less than Bush.

Global warming: deniers say there is no problem. People who believe science want to act now while it's cheap before more harm is done. It's all about the future.

Unintended Consequences?
What we have seen now happening in Iraq today begs the question:Did Bush 43 and his advisors who launched this war against Iraq think of the consequences of their action. When Bush41 embarked on the first intrusion into the dispute between Kuwait he apparently did not think of what would happen in the aftermath. He went so far as to urge the Iraqi people to "overthrow this tyrant" and only then did he and his group understand that Saddam was the glue that held these loonies from killing each other. He decided to not topple Saddam by going all the way to Baghdad but those Iraqis who took his advice paid a terrible price when Saddam crushed them. Many of the mass graves shown on our Tv screens were were the tragic result of them following the Bush41 pleas. I was not surprised to read that Bush43 was unaware of the existence of THREE disparate groups in Iraq who had been fighing for a century before the Western Hemisphere was discovered. The most disturbing aspect of this, to me, is that people like Lynne Cheney and Kate O'Beirne have complained about the lack of studying history in our schools. Bush41 is an unfortunate example of what has befallen us for not having such interest in history. This Neocon War gets a "F" for failure. However, those who have enriched themselves on it deserve an "A+". Steve USN WW2

Jableson
1. Affirmative action: Yes, blacks had a bad lot for many years in this country. I think everyone acknowledges that. However, it's been 43 years since the passage of the Civil Rights act. It is acknowledged now that not hiring a black solely because of his race is absolutely wrong. Affirmative action only causes problems. Someone who is not qualified for a position should not be given that position. Period. It is detrimental to the organization and the individual. The point Prager makes about dropout rates is true and has been made time and time again. In the best case, where you have a qualified black person in a postion known to have Affirmative Action attached to it, the preception of their qualifications by their colleagues WILL be hurt.
I've worked in organizations where the leadership advanced because of their race (they were black) and not because of their ability. It was a miserable organization to work for because the director lacked the capablility to do his job. When ever he communicated with his staff, he spouted out phrases straight out of a "Dilbert" style management handbook. He tried to seem decisive by making decisions quickly, but the decisions were often reversed and the staff punished when they acted on his earlier orders, despite his not countermanding them. I could go on, but the point is he was singularly unqualified for the position and as a result 80% of the staff left within one month. THAT'S what Affirmative Action gets you.

2. Illegal Immigration: OK, Look, just because the Republican politicians support illegals almost as much as the Democrat politicians doesn't mean it isn't a major divide between Right and Left. Politicians, Democrat or Republican, are in business to get reelected. That's it. The preception is that most voters prefer to let people roam free accross our borders. How true that really is, I don't know. Maybe it is true and maybe it isn't. But the bottom line is this, the Left wants illegals here because it increases their power. They want Illegals (or their children born here, and thus citizens) to vote because they will vote for Democrats. They complain about the lack of bilingual ballots, despite the fact that (A) citizenship is required to vote and (B) for immigrants, fluency in English is (ostensibly) required for citizenship. Those on the Left complain about the idea of a fence, they complain about the minutemen, they demand that illegals be given official government identification (Drivers Licenses), they demand that taxpayer funded services be afforded to illegals (like wellfare) and they scream "Discrimination" and "Bigotry" when opposing views are brought up. My opinion of Bush is mixed, and one of the reasons is his abysmal immigration policy.

3. The War: IT ISN'T THE IRAQIS WE'RE FIGHTING!!!!! We're fighting terrorists brought in through Iran and Syria. THEY are also killing Iraqi civilians. Anyone, right or left, who thought this would be a quick, painless operation was a complete moron. Period. Having said that, your comment that it was (and is) useless is flat wrong. We got rid of Saddam. That in and of itself is good. The intel for the WMDs DID NOT COME FROM THE RIGHT! It came from the Clinton administration and Mr. Bill himself said we needed to do something in 1998. Of course he didn't, but he did say that publicly. To say we are being distracted from the war on terror is blind. Who do you think we're fighting in Iraq? Communists? As I said, we're fighting non-Iraqi terrorists. Many of them from a branch of al Qaeda. Besides that, we've lost a little more than 3,000 people in 4 years. At our current pace it would take 71 years to have as many dead soldiers as we did in Vietnam (which lasted 10 years). And, you know what? It might take that long. If we bail out now, it will be the same as when Mr. Bill bailed out of Somalia. Al Qaeda will be emboldened and they will make the effort to hit us again. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Unfortunately, so are the people who are caught in the way.

Taxes: Just like every liberal you bring up the standard class warfare garbage about tax cuts for the rich and nothing for the poor. You throw into it the 300 Billion that is spent on the war, just for good measure.

I will spare you the full version of the standard response that the rich already pay a disproportionately high percentage of the taxes (The top 5 percent paying 50% of the taxes or something like that, I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head.) The bottom line is this, the poor don't get tax cuts because they don't pay taxes. The middle class gets small cuts because the middle class doesn't pay a huge amount of taxes.

As to funding the war, I'll make it simple. There's an easy way to fund the war and slash taxes and still come out ahead, even in the static Keynesian economic model that Liberals love. I wonder how much the Departments of Education, HUD, HHS, and Energy, along with the EPA, the NEA, the NEH, the NSF, Public broadcasting, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and all those other useless agencies siphon off the general fund. And I'm sure I forgot a few. Cut out the stuff the Constitution doesn't call for (and Defense IS called for in the Constitution) and we'll probably free up billions.

By the way, cutting out the war would reduce the FY2007 budget to FY2005 levels. http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/pdf/hist.pdf (Page 22)

Jabelson
lol Thanks for the good laugh, I appreciate it. Man! Do you ever actually, you know, LEARN anything?

1. Which party ended slavery? Which party did Harry Truman, a Klan member, belong to? Which party did Justice Hugo Black, a Klan member, belong to, and which president was he nominated by? Which party did Robert Byrd, a SITTING SENATOR, and a former Klan member, belong to?

2. While you are correct that neither the current president, nor the Republican Legislature did anything about illegal immigration... are you seriously contending that "liberals" are in favor of immigration restrictions? Are you seriously contending the that the conservative base is OPPOSED to immigration restrictions?

Here's a hint: A Republican president is not always "conservative," genius.

3. LOL!!! Yes, the Left predicted a "quagmire" in Iraq... but then, they predicted the same thing in Afghanistan, which was well and truly over in weeks. A stopped clock is right twice a day, hot shot.

Now, had the Left accurately predicted the *reason*, you might have a point.

Oh, and you missed Prager's point by a mile: he is talking about the advocates for withdrawal NOW... you know, the same people who thought we could pull out of Vietnam and withdraw all funding from the South Vietnamese and nothing bad would happen. Whoops.

4. I love this bit: "Bush cuts taxes that mainly affect the most wealthy while tossing a bone to the middle class with little or nothing for the poor..."

How much in taxes do you think "the poor" actually PAY? Just curious as well, what would you guess is the percentage of taxes paid by the top 5% of earners?

"we have a war to finance... and Bush wants to keep cutting taxes."

The implication here is that cutting taxes will reduce the amount of $$ we have to finance the war effort. This of course completely IGNORES the fact that the last tax cut actually resulted in INCREASED REVENUE.

You make this wayyyyyy too easy.

"It goes right to the heart of a heartless right wing: we have ours and tough luck to those who don't"

Way to go for right for the stupidest steroetypes out there!

Are you sure you didn't come straight from Central Casting?

Happy Jake
The top 5% pay 37% of taxes. You have to scale it down to the top 10% of earners to cover the 50% mark of taxes paid.

Good response to the genius though.

Nonsense
It's not hard to find examples of either party not thinking ahead.

The right didn't think ahead before invading Iraq. (They were warned that it would most likely turn into a civil war.)

The right doesn't ask "What happens next?" when our tax policies are creating the conditions for an oligarchy to take over this country and use their power to make all of the political decisions in their interests, not the rest of the country's.

The right doesn't ask "What happens next?" when they spend us into huge debt.

The right doesn't ask "What happens next?" when they focus education on testing, testing and more testing, rather than developing the entire person and instilling an overall love of learning.

The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when it comes to vouchers: The best schools would be filled with the kids of the wealthy and the well connected, and everyone else would be stuck bouncing around from lousy school to lousy school.

The right has, however, been thinking "What happens next?" on imigration: They want the country to be flooded with illegals so that employers can keep wages down for workers. (Gotta give credit where credit is due.)

The right doesn't ask "What happens next?" when they fill all government positions based on cronyism rather than competence, skill and knowledge. (Katrina.)

The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when it comes to our dependence on foriegn oil. (What sense does it make to encourage people to drive huge SUVs?)

The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when we pi$$ off the rest of the world with our arrognace and our hubris.

The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when they actively seek to fan the flames of the "culture war" for short term political gain. (It's not good to have such an stark ideological division within our own country. It divides family members from family members, co-workers from co-workers.)

The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when they lie the country into war.

The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when they put foxes in charge of gaurding our hen houses: Wall St people regulating Wall St., Timber people regulating the timber industry, energy company people regulating the environment, etc.

Prager has been looking through the lens of his ideological leanings for so long that he tends to see only the negative side of the left, and only the positive side of the right.

And yet, he'll still tell you that he's fair to both sides. Oh no, he doesn't have an agenda, not Dennis. He's totatlly objective and balanced. What a joke.

Phylo out

Happy Jake...
...to inject common sense into this discussion shows you are on the wrong site."Casting pearls before swine" comes to mind.

What happens next?
Prager is correct. Liberals are not deep thinkers. I would even go so far as to say that they are not wired up correctly enough to think about unintended consequences of their actions. Sowell is a great author on this subject, but also, try to find "Do Gooders" by Mona Charen. Also, Lyle H. Rossiter's "The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness".

TO SUM IT UP
leftist liberalism is truly a mental disorder, how else can you explain the madness of it all and these peoples willingness to destroy not only America but themselves and their children. They need to be locked up and kept off the streets away from society because if they do get full power they WILL succeed in destroying us all.

Fergus
Jabelson doesn't bother with facts, they only get in the way of emotion and "compassion"...

Hmm, doesn't that sound like he's unwittingly proving Prager's point?

Phylo
What you miss in your characterization of Katrina as a FEMA failure is that the response to natural disasters is primarily a local and state responsibility. FEMA will only get involved when requested by the Governor, and then only as a support agency. The primary responsibility for the fiasco in LA falls squarely at the feet of Mayor Chocolate and Governor Moonbat, although Brownie obviously could have done a better job.

Phylo's response
I love how most of Prager's article focuses on things that are going on right now, and Phylo's response for the most part focuses on hypotheticals. ex: Vouchers - "The best schools would be filled with the kids of the wealthy and the well connected" (Hey, Phylo, when you factor private schools into the equation, what do you think is happening NOW? Or do you think that the Klintons, the Gores, the Edwardses, and all the rest of the Leftist elite, send their kids to public school?).

Of course, Phylo DOES leave some room for empty polemics as well - The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when they lie the country into war". How could he call himself a Leftist in good standing otherwise?

typical Phylo
putting words into Prager's mouth. I don't recall Prager mentioning the Right in his column, moron. He would readily admit that many Republicans don't think very far ahead either. He was more speaking of the doctrines behind liberalism and conservatism. Liberalism is not well-thought out. It's felt.

Fergus and Nam 65-66
Thanks for the assists, guys.

I realize resistance is futile, but I gotta do what I gotta do.

If I can save just one child from the scourge of Liberalism, then I've done my duty.

(Good Lord, now I sound like one of them.)

Fergus, thanks for the numbers. I can never remember them and don't want to take the time to find them every time.

HJG

FergusMacLennan
"....but then, they predicted the same thing in Afghanistan, which was well and truly over in weeks..."
Sorry to contradict you but that little 'problem' has reared it's ugly head again, I know you boys seem to have left that one for us to try and sort out but it's still going on and not getting any better as far as we can see. However given todays headlines regarding the suppression of the cockpit video involving the US destroying our convoy in Basra in 2003 that might be for the best!!!

What Happens Next?
Dennis is a bit too eager to ascribe "compassion" as the left's motivation. The left's motivation is control. Control over every aspect of everyone's life, except for theirs of course. Chavez, Castro, Stalin, Mao, et al., seek absolute control - of course they do so in the name of the people - but it always ends up the same, the people become prisoners. The left is not compassionate, it is condescending.

suirad
suirad: putting words into Prager's mouth. I don't recall Prager mentioning the Right in his column, moron.

Phylo: I never said he did, idiot.

suirad: He would readily admit that many Republicans don't think very far ahead either.

Phylo: Then why write a cloumn about how the left doesn't think very far ahead and forget to mention that the right does it too?

suirad: He was more speaking of the doctrines behind liberalism and conservatism. Liberalism is not well-thought out. It's felt.

Phylo: Most of our founding fathers were liberals. So when you crticise liberalism are you not also criticising the very basis of our country?

Well, I for one am not going to sit here and listen to you bad mouth the Uniited States of America!

Phylo out.






congressive wrote:
"Democrats tax and spend, Republicans just spend and spend. Which is more sustainable? Which is more responsible?"

Well... since the JFK, Reagan, and GWB tax cuts all INCREASED revenues by increasing the size of the pot being taxed... "tax cut and spend" is more responsible than the Dem plan which decreases economic activity while simultaneously taking a larger chunk of what's left.

BTW, the GOP definitely did some stupid budgetary stuff like the Medicare increase but without the WOT/Iraq issues that weren't dealt with when they would have be cheaper... we could very possibly have been in surplus right now even with (or because of) the tax cuts.

Happy Jake
Very well put.

The only thing I can add is that affirmative action favors rich white males over poor white males. Rich white males easily skirt around the barriers put up by affirmative action. They still get into the best colleges, and they have so many connections they can easily get a great job. It may involve nothing more than being hired by their father's law firm.

Poor white males are the ones taking it on the chin as far as affirmative action is concerned. Leftists like to think about who benefits from affirmative action, but never who is victimized by it. And poor white males are the people who used to be the Democrats' biggest supporters.

Phylo
I'm going against the advice of other, more reasonable posters here and tackling your points head on.

Ahem:

The war in Iraq isn't a "Civil War" it's an invasion of foriegn terrorists under the very banner of al Qaeda that represents our biggest (but not only) enemy.

Kennedy and Reagan both proved that lowering tax rates and simplifying the code increases federal revenues. I believe Bush has done the same (check the link I put in my response to Jableson).

The Left does all the spending on stuff we don't need (See the above referenced post for examples.)

Educating the "Whole Person" hasn't and won't work. You need a quantitative measure or you don't know whether the school is where it needs to be, never mind the student.

As to vouchers, the POINT is to fill up the private schools and get the kids out of the schools that are failing. I believe someone already responded about how many trust-fund liberals have their kids in private schools that I wouldn't be able to afford. (And I am anything but poor).

It's not the right that's letting the illegals in. It's Republican politicians who are weak in concert with the Left. BTW, what's your position on the matter?

Someone else already answered the Katrina issue. Suffice to say that your point is completely invalid.

Uh, last I checked it was the Left that doesn't want us to drill ANWR and the Gulf of Mexico for "environmental" concerns. It's also the Left that doesn't want us to use Nuclear power or Hydro power, two things that have a proven track record of safety, effectiveness, cleanliness, and even use in Europe (3 of which Liberals claim to love). And before you toss Chernobyl and Three Mile Island at me, consider that Chernobyl was built on 60's era Soviet technology (not exactly high standards of quality) and even then only killed about 50 people. TMI killed 3 people because a steam pipe blew. No radiation actually leaked out.

You can't make everyone happy, no matter how hard you try. We haven't ticked off the entire world, just those who don't like us much anyway (like France, Germany and Russia.)

The culture war is perpetuated by those who believe that their position is so morally superior that they will not accept any disagreement whatsoever. Those who disagree with the Elites are called racists, bigots, homophobes, religious freaks, extremists, sexist, ignorant, intolorant, unenlightened, backward, hayseeds, hillbillies, and warmongers (did I forget any?) without any attempt being made to counter the arguments. If I could say "Homosexual acts are immoral" without being called a homophobe, we might be able to get something constructive done.

Presuming that they were wrong about WMDs in Iraq (and there's no reason so far to dispute that presumption) the Republicans did NOT lie us into war, not unless they had the complicity of the Clinton administration, a Clinton appointed DCI, the Brits, the French, the Israelis, the Russians, the Germans, and the UN, ALL of whom thought Saddam had WMDs.

Your last point is simply a non sequitur, so I won't even bother. It's not true. Besides, Congress regulates Congress, so where's the problem?

haha
Phylo defending the United States... now that's a switch. Any liberal actually being pro-America is a miracle in itself.

As for the Founding Fathers being liberal, they sure weren't liberal in any modern sense of the word. They would never have been ok with abortion on demand, social security, government-led health care, the list goes on. Today's liberalism stands for one thing: government controlling people's lives. Liberalism is just a step down the road toward socialism, which in turn leads to communism.

JFP
Thanks, good point.

By the way, isn't it interesting that the most prominent democrats always seem to be rich whites? Schools like Duke and the Ivy League don't exactly fill up with conservative students, now, do they?

and that would be...
... YOU

"You say cutting Taxes brings in revenue - even as record budget deficits reign and total debt passes 7 trillion dollars. One of us is wrong..."

The tax cuts did increase revenues at a higher pace. For the third consecutive time however gov't outspent the increases. On two occasions, (JFK/GWB) wars and new social spending absorbed the increase. The Dems just lied and continued "spending like drunk sailors" when the Reagan tax cuts increased revenues. For every $1 in new revenue, the liberals of the 80's spent $2.

Moral of the story is... as bad as the GOP was at spending, it could have been much worse if Dems had held the purse strings.

it's funny
I think that most liberals actually believe that they support this country, albeit in a very twisted way. But the best part is when they invoke the Founding Fathers as some sort of defense of their belief system. That is classic!

Happy Jake
>The War: IT ISN'T THE IRAQIS WE'RE FIGHTING!!!!! We're fighting terrorists brought in through Iran and Syria. THEY are also killing Iraqi civilians. Anyone, right or left, who thought this would be a quick, painless operation was a complete moron. Who do you think we're fighting in Iraq? Communists? As I said, we're fighting non-Iraqi terrorists. Many of them from a branch of al Qaeda.<

What war are you talking about?
And I never expected you to call the vice president a moron.

watcha
Liberalism is a Mental Disorder

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/g/12d2bcfe-7679-4caa-a35a-e602fc908dfe

I've offered my twelve step program to many a libstooge in the hopes that they can flush out their headgear but unfortunately, many of them of comfortably stuck on stupid.

And then, when they mewl and whine that THEY are sticking up for America, I always direct them here.

Libs attack the Constitution

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/g/14a2313f-3595-4c75-bba5-a7c8e26ac15a

Again, it is starkly evident that their mouths are in high gear while their brains are jammed in PARK!

suirad
That's the classic straw man attack. Page Three of the Communist/Libertard Manifesto.

Check the blog link I provided:

Libs Attack the Constitution.

LD's comments
LD, please allow Nee to have your comments written here published. I especially like how you made clear the left's view of higher taxes. You know that higher taxes do nothing for the ecomony, but it's just good to watch the corporations suffer. You folks see anyone getting what you perceive to be a bit ahead of you and you're screaming. Talk about class warfare!

You are for crushing those who provide the jobs the rest of us go to. You are for crushing the working man's incentive to produce more, to work harder.

There are plenty of countries you folks can pack up and head off to. Hugo Chavez seems like a rising star you can link up with for your utopia.

Jableson
Your point about Republicans being against civil rights is idiotic. Give me an example. A RECENT example. (Note, Being against abortion and Affirmative Action do not count. There is no fundamental human right to abortion or racial preference.)

Phylo wrote:
"The right didn't think ahead before invading Iraq. (They were warned that it would most likely turn into a civil war.)"

Would that include right wingers like both Clintons, Kerry, Edwards, etc who were all on record saying that Iraq was a problem and regime change was the right goal? They apparently thought civil war would be a "good" thing.

Jabelson
"You say cutting Taxes brings in revenue - even as record budget deficits reign and total debt passes 7 trillion dollars. One of us is wrong"

Go check the IRS website, genius.

I love it when Leftists make themselves look like fools.

Utahnotmormon
The war I am talking about is the one everyone's talking about. The one in Iraq. Yes, a number of the people we are fighting are from Iraq, but as I understand it the vast majority now are imports.

And if Dick Cheney thought the war would be quick and painless, he was a moron for thinking it. I'm not applying that label just to the Left here. There was no way the war was going to be like the 1991 Gulf War. It doesn't take a strategic genius to see that. I thought that way in 2003 and I think that way now. The difference between me and the Left is that I think we need to be there and we need to do what it takes to win decisively, especially now.

And Honestly, it's been a lot less costly in terms of American lives than I think ANYONE would have predicted if they'd have thought it through.

BTW
I guess it is much better to incite a civil war then sit back and hypocritically wring your hands than to take out a fascist dictator and attempt to assist nationals in developing a stable state... A state that more than likely would have been established with relative peace had not outside terror groups made it their business to instigate problems.

Of course, now our all wise leftists want to validate that tactic by cutting and running... leaving a REAL mess that will spawn hatred for generations. Remember, the Iraqis didn't cheer our arrival initially because we hadn't followed through in the early 90's. If we don't follow through now, we buy a long lived grudge with people who pass them on to their children.

Phylo
Phylo: Most of our founding fathers were liberals. So when you crticise liberalism are you not also criticising the very basis of our country?

Phylo ol' buddy, I gotta tell ya, in a history LOADED with moronic statements, this one takes the cake. It reveals an ignorance of history and context so complete that I am honestly at a lack for words to address it.

Apart from the word "liberal", what exactly do you think someone like you has in common, ideologically speaking, with Thomas Jefferson, Adam Smith, John Locke, John Adams, James Madison... you know, the LIBERALS you were referring to?

I will give you this: you have cut to the heart of the reason why I refuse to describe you and your ilk as "liberals;" to so name you is to sully a fine and honorable intellectual tradition, and as far as I am concerned y'all are Leftists.

Kimberly
What was the Allies' "exit strategy" for WW2?

The assertion that getting out rather than winning is the goal is in great measure how liberals learned to turn military success into defeat during Vietnam.

One of the major mistakes of the Administration has been to not define "victory" to the American people with clarity and consistency. That doesn't mean however that what liberals propose both as a solution to Iraq and as an approach to war in general isn't manifestly and massively STUPID.

Suggestion: Leftists, not Liberals
I'm trying to use the labels 'Leftist' or 'Socialist' instead of the 'L word', which has been mis-applied to modern day Leftists. It is one of the semantic idiocies of our time that the word 'Liberal' has become a pejorative.

Case in point: Phylo is correct when he says that our founding fathers were 'liberal', but they were clearly not 'leftist' or 'socialist' in their thinking.

Which of the two alternatives do you think would be more applicable than the word 'liberal'?

http://voice.townhall.com

Voice of Reason
I usually try (but don't always succeed) to do the same thing. "Liberal" means someone interested in liberty. The modern Left is interested in anything but liberty.

Founders liberal?
Yes. In the classic sense. Today, they would sit somewhere between conservative Republican and full blown libertarian. All were hard core property rights advocates. Most were fundamental Christians.

Only a small minority thought the federal gov't should intrude on state matters. None thought of the state gov't as a subsidiary of the federal gov't. None advocated a public school system for primary education and Jefferson warned that it would be a means to indoctrinate and enslave the people (he was a prophet).

None thought the federal gov't had a stake in equal results, wealth redistribution, homosexual "rights", a minimum wage, union support, retirement, health care, or a whole host of bad liberal ideas that they would have opposed to the death.

In the modern sense of the word "liberal" (which used to mean liberal about allowing freedom, protective of God-given rights, and generous with your own money)... the Founders were very close to the political opposite of modern day statists/socialists/progressives who somehow co-opted the label "liberal".

Phylo: One example...
... to illustrate the hollowness of the Leftist perspective, and the point Prager was getting at:

"The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when it comes to vouchers: The best schools would be filled with the kids of the wealthy and the well connected, and everyone else would be stuck bouncing around from lousy school to lousy school."

What you are addressing is what's know to those who pay attention to economics as a scarcity of resources. In this case, the scarce resource is "a good education." Schooling has become an abundant resource, but schooling and "a good education" are not the same thing.

The problem is that making public funding of education has not solved the problem of scarcity.

Your issue, and that of the Left, is that leaving allocation of the scarce resource to the Market results in "unfair" allocation: "the wealthy and the well connected" are the only ones to get it. Here are the issues:

1. What makes a supposedly random allocation of this resource any better? At best, the scarce resource will be wasted on some who have no use for it; i.e., those whose benefit from the best educational opportunities is negligible, while others who could benefit from such an education to the far greater benefit of society as a whole are left out in the cold. Economically, this is an incredibly stupid allocation of a scarce resource, the equivalent of divvying up oil resources, and making sure that reindeer herders in Lapland get an equal portion to that received by, say, truck drivers distributing life-saving medicines.

2. What makes you think that this supposedly "unfair" allocation of the scarce resource is all that different from what happens NOW? As I pointed out before, we have private schools in this country, and it is to such schools that the Clintons, the Gores, the Edwardses, the Jesse Jacksons, and so on, ALL send their kids. That is, the children of "the wealthy and the well connected." Apart from that, the best of the public schools tend to be located in areas of affluence: school districts with a high property tax base, from which the schools can pay for the best of everything. Thus, once again, the children of "the wealthy and the well connected" benefit.

A voucher system would, at the VERY least, open up the best private schools to poor kids of merit. Moreover, there would suddenly be a MARKET for private schools, and increased market competition would do what market competition ALWAYS does, which is to force everyone in the game to play at a higher level, or else get cut from the herd. The result would be far more good schools, thus - AHA! - making the scarce resource of "a good education" somewhat less scarce.

This is ALSO what a Free Market always does.

Here endeth the lesson.

As usual, a grain of truth, but...
Definitely a good idea, and yes, an idealistic one, to think through consequences. But I don't know that you can brand liberals with that more than conservatives, especially if you consider the current administration to be paradigmatic of conservatism. But enough name calling, let's just all make a pact that we're going to think through consequences, and debate issues instead of broad labels, as though one nebulously connected group could be right about everything and the other wrong about everything.

Typical Prager prattle
Mr. Prager presumes to know what motivates liberals. He's like the Amazing Kreskin. If his premise that selfishness is the reason people are liberals, then I posit that greed is the chief motivator of the right.
I guess we can eliminate that "with liberty and justice for all" nonsense out of the Pledge of Allegiance.
I am proud to be considered a liberal. All of you 'high IQ' rightwingers can cower in fear over every issue that threatens the status quo -
either adapt to change or get off the runway.

voice_of_reason: re "Suggestions"
Fist bump, my brother! Great minds and all that...

ravingmoderate
"especially if you consider the current administration to be paradigmatic of conservatism"

Do you know any real conservatives who consider this administration to be representative of their positions, in general? Not just one or two positions, but the whole package?

Where are we going?
What solution does Town Hall provide to anything?

Seriously? What hope is there here in Prager's column?

Conservatives, or liberals for that matter, should be first and foremost focused on providing conservative solutions and figuring out ways to promote them.

Bashing liberals does neither.

If one takes a sample of Town Hall articles and divides them into two categories of conservative policy or liberal bashing, clearly the stack of liberal bashing columns would be ten times higher than the conservative policy.

Hugh hired Dinesh D'Souza for one reason, bash liberals. Well, excuse me but doesn't Ann Coulter, Kevin M., ad nauseum do the same thing?

O.K., so Dinesh gets far more posts than William Buckley. What does that mean?

1.) Town Hall makes money off of ads. More posts means more ad revenues. Therefore, the more liberal bashing Town Hall puts up, the more money made. Take a good look in the mirror people and scan the columists for who gets the most posts. Its all the liberal bashers like Ann Coulter.

2.) Right wing media has been reduced to entertainment for money. Liberal bashing, by-and-large, is a feel good sport. Rush Limbaugh was once asked why didn't get involved in political campaigns or run for office. His response was that he first and foremost sees himself as an entertainer.

Where are we going?

Where is Town Hall going? Town Hall is trying to drive more traffic to its web site by adding columnists who liberal bash like Dinesh. That's entertainment folks. Dinesh does nothign to advance politics in this country and neither does Prager's article here. All Prager's article does is trough red meat to the lions so they can gorge themselves on the superior feelings over liberals.

Conservatives need to learn that liberal bashing is never going to produce any result other than that of all entertainment. A quick buzz that passes the time.



Betty
She writes: "If [Prager's] premise that selfishness is the reason people are liberals..."

Which article did you read? Nowhere in that article did Prager use the word "selfishness" in association with Leftist motives.

sjt18
Great post on the Founding Fathers.

Required reading for ALL Americans should be "Common Sense" and "The Rights of Man" by Thomas Paine.

That would cure 90% of the problems with lib stoogery in America. The other 10% we can exile to Francistan.

drivebyposting
So start your own conservative website. Let us all know how it goes.

drivebyposting
Why don't you just cut to the chase and not use so many words?

Just say: "I don't like free speech because it allows conservatives to point out ridiculous and/or inconvenient flaws in liberal ideology."

Most conservatives I know don't wish that liberals would shut up... we hope they say what they believe and say it loudly and honestly. When they do, the voters reject them wholesale.

Fergus
Great point! It probably says more about Liberals than anyone else that they automatically assume that when a Conservative questions their thought process in fleshing out theoretical policies (i.e. Affirmative Action) he or she is calling the Left selfish.

Stupid? Maybe. Misguided? Definitely. Selfish...Me thinks she doth protest too much.

The Left's different image of America
It would be easy to remind one of the posters to look at a modern map. Yugoslavia no longer exists as a country.

What has the left ever recommended that was not a direct impact on the fundamentals that have made the USA great? They have never learned from other countries experiences or the failed experience here in the USA. They don't believe that any of the programs were failures but just not funded well enough. The Great Society would have worked but it wasn't funded as it should have been.

Why should the Left worry about tomorrow or whether this country will even exists? Most of the present leadership on the left grew up in the 1960s believing "live for today", "love the one your with", and "imagine" don't think. Most do not and never have liked the USA as it was designed even after they have forced the changes we see today. They have sought to divide the country in every way possible. And you do that by attacking the country's roots. They claim to want to help "forgotten middle America" yet their leaders, if they ever were, are no longer from middle America, but are as rich as many they wish to tax. Once in Washington, even if well intentioned and middle class when elected or appointed to office, they soon become rich and their drive for power insatiable.

Also, remember many of their intellectual forefathers and some of them today, believe that the Soviet Union would have succeeded as a worker's paradise if the West, especially the USA, had not kept the USSR on a war footing.

Not true-
"Conservatives need to learn that liberal bashing is never going to produce any result other than that of all entertainment. A quick buzz that passes the time."

Pointing out the errors in political plans and ideals is very much beneficial. Pointing out the flawed thinking of a worldview is also very helpful. Pointing out the character and ideological flaws of those who would lead.... as absolutely imperative.

drivebyposting
Gee, I bet left wing sites NEVER bash conservatives!

RE: Phylo
As usual, your idiocy shows no bounds:

"The right didn't think ahead before invading Iraq."

Sure they did. Unlike kooks on the left, they consider both sides of any argument, and weigh the options. They considered whether or not a hostile, terrorist supporting regime with WMDs was more dangerous than taking out said regime, even if it led to civil war.

And before you get on the "where are the WMDs!" idiocy you morons are quick to move to, that doesn't matter. Every single person on planet Earth in a position to know whether or not Iraq had WMDs unanimously agreed that Iraq DID have WMDs. Pre-invasion, we were working with the unanimously agreed notion that Iraq had WMDs, and the ONLY dispute was whether those WMDs should be forcefully taken away, NOT whether they existed at all.

"The right doesn't ask "What happens next?" when our tax policies are creating the conditions for an oligarchy to take over this country and use their power to make all of the political decisions in their interests, not the rest of the country's."

What bunk. Yes, I know, you kooky commies think that the job of the tax code is wealth redistribution. It's amusing how after 3000 years of monumental failures at developing your utopian world, you morons still insist that "next time it will all be different". Who was it that once said something to the effect of "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?"

Kooks like you just can't accept the fact that true freedom starts and ends with the ability to own personal property, particularly the ownership of one's own labor.

"The right doesn't ask "What happens next?" when they spend us into huge debt."

Sure we do. We're, again, smart enough to weigh both sides of the issue. Debt in exchange for benefits in the long run.

"The right doesn't ask "What happens next?" when they focus education on testing, testing and more testing, rather than developing the entire person and instilling an overall love of learning."

ROFL!! Yeah, because after all, we need to make sure kids feel good, even though they can't read, write, add 2 numbers together. 2500 years of education, producing such minds as Aristotle, Galileo, and Einstein, and you think instead we should focus on making sure kids are having their feelings hurt when they fail.

"The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when it comes to vouchers: The best schools would be filled with the kids of the wealthy and the well connected, and everyone else would be stuck bouncing around from lousy school to lousy school."

Um, rich and connected kids don't go to public schools right now. Heck, 75% of children of public school teachers don't even go to public schools. Vouchers would give opportunities to those kids that can't afford a private education. But then if that happens, you can say goodbye to the next generation of undereducated Democrat voters, huh?

"The right has, however, been thinking "What happens next?" on imigration: They want the country to be flooded with illegals so that employers can keep wages down for workers. (Gotta give credit where credit is due.)"

The right has been the only obstacle in this debate, kiddo. Sure Bush and a few idiot senators have been going for the illegals, but it is a fact that EVERY SINGLE Democrat, at every elected level, wants the illegals to flow into the nation. The right has been their only opposition.

"The right doesn't ask "What happens next?" when they fill all government positions based on cronyism rather than competence, skill and knowledge. (Katrina.)"

Yeah, and Nagin and Blanco really proved to be "qualified", huh? And, say, tell me, exactly what qualifies Hillary Clinton to be on the Senate Armed Services Committee, anyhow?

"The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when it comes to our dependence on foriegn oil. (What sense does it make to encourage people to drive huge SUVs?)"

Bush's last energy policy that was rejected by Democrats contained huge budget increases for alternative energy sources. Heck, the #1 opponent of the "Cape Wind" windfarm on Cape Cod was none other than John Kerry. He complained that it would be an eye sore when he took his $5 million yatch out for a spin. And who's encouraging people to druve SUVs?

"The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when we pi$$ off the rest of the world with our arrognace and our hubris."

We saw what playing nice with our so-called friends got us on 9/11/2001. We basically told the rest of the world to lead, follow, or get out of the way. If the choice is having a bunch of bree-eating panty-waistes mad at us or a smoldering New York, those cheese-eating surrender-monkeys in France can kiss my a$$!

"The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when they actively seek to fan the flames of the "culture war" for short term political gain. (It's not good to have such an stark ideological division within our own country. It divides family members from family members, co-workers from co-workers.)"

Oh, now that's rich! This coming from a supporter of the class warfare movement. For you guys, it's always black versus white, rich versus poor.

"The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when they lie the country into war."

What were the lies? The entire world comminity already knew everything we told them. As I already said, EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH in a position to know all thought EXACTLY the same thing: that Iraq had WMDs. In fact we DID find substantial WMDs and banned materials -- everything from mustard gas filled shells, sarin gas, various biologicals -- just not nearly as much as EVERYONE thought they had. The only "lies" being told are the lies you idiots vomit every single day.

"The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when they put foxes in charge of gaurding our hen houses: Wall St people regulating Wall St., Timber people regulating the timber industry, energy company people regulating the environment, etc."

Uh huh. So instead of having experts in the field, it's better to just hire some random Joe off the street. I see.

"Prager has been looking through the lens of his ideological leanings for so long that he tends to see only the negative side of the left, and only the positive side of the right."

Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.

"Phylo out"

Yeah, of your mind.

Driveby
I missed your posting until just now. Townhall.com does a great service; whether you appreciate it or not is another question all together. Prager, if you actually read/listen to him, you would know there are few more fair, decent, genuinely concerned for the welfare of others, men in the great country. I will not defend all the rhetoric and/or language that all writers use in the varying columns on this site, but there are plenty of solutions (not just identification of problems) available here.

Prager's point is that we need to stop voting/living with only our heart...we need to utilize our God-given intellect and reasoning powers to more effectively administer policies that need fixing. What is pointless about that? Would it be better to simply allow the larger publications and networks do all the thinking for us and prohibit open forum debates and exchange of ideas as is the case here at townhall.com (or other similar sites).

Put away your antiquated notions that every critique of the Left is "just as bad" as Leftist attacks on the right. There is such thing as objective truth, and there are better ways to run a nation than others. I do not think all Liberals are stupid, American-hating, losers (not all), but I do believe they are way off-base and generally misguided. More specifically, it is those in leadership positions on the Left that are continually dragging our nation (kicking and screaming) into their idea of a socialist-utopia (i.e. france, venezuela, etc) which has proven itself incapable of sustaining much more than bitter citizens and revolution.

We revolted to do away with many of the same policies the Left wants to bring us back too. Power in the hands of the few. Dependence on that few to provide the things we should have to work ourselves for. Prager believes, as I do, that we are owed nothing but the opprotunity to succeed, not the guarntee of mediocracy. He is offering a logical critique of policies that might make us feel better about ourselves, but do little to address actual problems and have consistently failed to offer real solutions.

Pappy:
Republicans are thinking things through just fine. They see the consequences of their actions clear as crystal: "This action will garner more votes for me."

And who cares what it does to the country.

Phylo wrote:
"The right didn't think ahead before invading Iraq. (They were warned that it would most likely turn into a civil war.)"

Actually, I don't remember much along these lines. The biggest objection leftists had with the war was that Bush was being a bully. Anyone who knew anything about life in Iraq under Saddam knew how wrong that was and how ignorant anyone was who said such a thing.

Then there were those leftists who thought things would turn out too well for us and so went to Iraq to become human shields so as to make it harder for us. I don't think they were expecting a civil war.

I suppose there were some leftists who warned us that things wouldn't go very well, but then they warned us about that in 1991, too. Nor do I remember anyone specifically talking about a civil war. I think they expected unified resistance among the Iraqis and not that the Iraqis would be fighting amongst themselves.

Fergus, luv
Prager opines that Liberal causes are predicated by their "feelings" and by showing compassion to make themselves feel good which are selfish motives. We are not like stalwart, no-nonsense, puritanical rightwingers. I can't remember who said this, and I paraphrase: "What you do unto the lowliest among you, you do unto me." Hmmm, maybe it was Mother Teresa or Hugo Chavez.

cartoon images of ones opponent
It can be interesting read Prager try to describe the motivations of people he obviously has no direct understanding of. This is particularly funny when he points to a minority scientific opinion supporting his view as proof that liberals don't care about future consequences. SO on environmental issues why don't liberals accept the claims of one guy who is largely dismissed by serious scientists, they must not care about the science. After all they go with what the scientific consensus says, and not what the scientist who supports Prager's view says.

If you want a sense of how the two sides think about the consequences of their actions look at the care with which Clinton dealt with Yugoslavia and compare it with the lack of thought that Bush put into the aftermath in Iraq.

Or for that matter look at the way that poverty and crime and abortion rates went during the Clinton years following his "greatest tax increases in history" and compare them to the same trends under Bush (or for that matter Reagan). It is funny given that liberals don't think about consequences, that their policies seem to produce better consequences.


Wingnut welfare
Sometime I am astounded that the contributors to TH actually get paid to spout all this drivel. But then, I am taken aback that there are so many sheep that agree with them. It's a puzzlement. Must be that 30% of the country that still approves of the Bush regime. How sad is that?

Fergus...
FergusMacLennan writes:

Fist bump, my brother! Great minds and all that...

-----------------

Didn't you watch the Super Bowl, or more precisely, the commercials? Fist bump is so out, we now slap each other on the side of the face.

Face slap, my brother!

FergusMaclennon
You seem to have your sense of Afghanistan exactly backwards. The great majority of Liberals supported going into Afghanistan. Unfortunately, and at least in part because the ADD administration decided to shift gears to Iraq, the struggle in Afghanistan is not over, and is in fact deteriorating by most accounts. We are currently trying to increase forces there because the Taliban is resurgent in the south. A pity we are stuck in a quagmire in Iraq and don't have the troops available that might do the trick.

Afghanistan is likely to go down as a great lost opportunity to both do good in the world and benefit America's position in the world. But instead we shifted our resources to Iraq because conservatives don't seem to think through the consequences of their actions, to adapt a theory I read somewhere.

Jabelson
Why do you Leftists always dodge when cornered?

"Many of us would consider the president's wiretapping (without a warrent) program to be against civil rights - though we know the Republicans disagree on that score. "

The original context of the question was not "civil rights", small "c" and "r," but rather "Civil Rights," large "C", large "R," which means the larger context is the civil rights of minorities, specifically blacks.

Now, let's try again: "Your point about Republicans being against civil rights is idiotic. Give me an example. A RECENT example."

Just One Question
If the evidence of Iraq's having WMD's (I don't care by whom, Clinton, Bush etc) was so compelling how come we were fed such absolute b*llocks to use the British vernacular. On this side of the Atlantic we got some students out of date dissertation nicked off the internet. In the US you got some nonsense that even Colin Powell described as "bullsh*t".
I can remember reading a lot of articles in the run up to war that stated that any weapons the Iraqi's might have were beyond use and there was no threat. Something akin to the line Condie was taking before the drums of war started beating. Strange how your "liberal media" managed not to report this especially as it turned out to be the truth!!

beowolf, you fool
Phylo: "The right doesn't think "What happens next?" when they lie the country into war."

beowolf: What were the lies? The entire world comminity already knew everything we told them. As I already said, EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH in a position to know all thought EXACTLY the same thing: that Iraq had WMDs. In fact we DID find substantial WMDs and banned materials -- everything from mustard gas filled shells, sarin gas, various biologicals -- just not nearly as much as EVERYONE thought they had. The only "lies" being told are the lies you idiots vomit every single day.

Phylo: Ah, I assume you would count General Anthony Zinni as someone who was in a position to know? He had top secret security clearance and he was consulting with the CIA on Iraq.

Well, on Aug 26th of 2002 at a speech to the national convention of the VFW Dick Cheney told the audience "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us"

Sitting behind Cheney when he said that was General Anthony Zinni.

And General Anthony Zinni told Thomas Ricks that he almost fell off his chair when he heard that because he had reviewed all the current intelligence and he had seen nothing to support Cheney's certitude. "I watched the intelligence and never––not once––did it say, 'He has WMD.'" "It was never there, never there" (From pages 49 and 50 in the book FIASCO.)

So, beowolf, it looks like Zinni, who knows a lot more than you do, is saying they lied. Hmmm beowolf, Zinni; beowolf, Zinni. Hmmmm, call me crazy, but I think I'm going to go with Zinni on this one.

And as far as that other nonsense about finding WMD. Not even Bush would agree with you.

And so you know, here are the lies:

They lied about the strength of the intel with respect to the uranium from Niger, the mobile weapons labs, the aluminum tubes and ties between Iraq and al Queda.

And before you trot out the usual list of quotes from Deomcrats who voted for the resolution, I already admit that they shirked their responsiblity by taking the White House at their word and not double checking what they were being told. And don't forget that many, if not most Democrats wanted more time for the inspections.

Phylo out.

Time to improve America's values
There is no government, either Left or Right that is worth having if the people are not good.

We can fight all we want about the system, and try to fix problems one by one, but until the core of the matter is not addressed, it will be like holding a herd of beachballs underwater.

When the citizens have values, there is less need to protect them against one another, and government can be less meddlesome.

When the political leaders have character, there is less reason to distrust them and the people can spend their time attending to their lives.

But we live in a deteriorating society, where character is being assaulted from every side.

Can you trust a new generation that was "raised" by the schools to believe that "there is no right or wrong," and to play a game called "Lifeboat" where they decide whose life is not valuable to the collective and kick them out of the boat?

I think as the Boomers approach old age, there is a great deal to fear, and I don't think the form of government is going to matter.

HJ
>The difference between me and the Left is that I think we need to be there and we need to do what it takes to win decisively, especially now.<

I don't think anything positive is accomplished by using liberal/conservative or left/right dichotomies in every discussion, so that's the difference between me and most other posters on this site.

You talk about winning and winning decisively, but the definition of what that means is not clear, so until that objective is clearly defined, it's empty rhetoric and counter productive.

The Bush administration has stated the objective is to establish a western friendly democracy in Iraq, a terrorist-free regime, a sparkling example of a Middle Eastern moderate state.

Let's look objectively at the reality without framing a left/right scenario.

The current Iraqi government is dominated by the Shiite politcal parties SCIRI and DAWA, Islamic religious parties who, among other things, promote Sharia law, the destruction of Israel, close relations with Iran, and autonomy for the southern provinces.
Does this sound like a western friendly democracy?

Our military strategy, until recently, has been to target Sunnis in Al Anbar, Tamim, Salladin and Diyala provinces, forcing them into a fragile alliance with foreign jihadists. The Iraqi army forces used by the US in operations in these provinces are Shiite and Kurdish, further excaberating the sectarian hostilities and marginalizing the indiginous Sunnis.

Recently, the Pentagon identified the Mahdi Army of Moqtada Al-Sadr as the most dangerous group in Iraq, so we've opened a front to combat them. No policy from the Pentagon has been advanced to deal with the larger, Iranian-trained Badr Brigade.

Finally, the Kurds have been our only true allies since the beginning of the war. However, the administration has ignored Turkey's continued
threats of invasion, meddling in the Kirkuk issue, and have supported policies that weaken Kurdish autonomy in favor of a strong central government in Baghdad which, as we have established, is Shiite-dominated bordering on radically Islamic.

Is this your idea of winning, or a long term winning strategy? Does a steadfast refusal to meet with Syria and Iran sound like a winning strategy? Does ignoring the actions of the Saudis and Turks in de-stabilizing Iraq sound like a winning strategy?

It's too bad that most of the Democrats in the Senate are just as clueless as the administration, because, with the exception of Biden, their positions are only making any sensible Iraq policy debate an even bigger farce.

JFP
The people warning Bush about civil war were the CIA and the State Department.

Phylo out.

Jabelson
MORON: Look at the IRS website, look at the income tax receipts for 2004, 2005, 2006. Not some Leftist think-tank drivel about what they think *might* happen, look at the objective evidence of what DID happen!

Regardless of Leftist bloviating about what they think *might* happen (bloviation that is years out of date, by the way), the objective FACT is that what did happen is that the IRS took in more in income taxes, AFTER the tax cuts took effect, than they did before. More, the percentage of the taxes gathered from the top quintile of earners actually went *up*, despite the fact that those in the top quintile actually received the largest cut in the rate they were paying.

In other words, cutting the taxes of the rich ended up with the rich paying MORE. Neat, huh? Amazing how the market works to reward where there are incentives.

Are you really so stupid that I have to do all your research for you?

RE: Jabelson
The CBO is the last source you should rely on for the effects of tax cuts. Not one single economist -- even kooky commies like Paul Krugman -- would take and report from the CBO seriously because of their extraordinarly flawed methodology (one mathemetician even proved that a random number generator was a more accurate a predictor of budget deficits than the CBO).

The CBO does what is called "static scoring" when predicting revenue effect on tax changes. Basically, the CBO says that if a particular tax is cut by 10%, that tax will generate 10% less in revenues, and if a tax is increased by 10%, that tax will generate 10% more in revenues.

Such an assumption, though, is patently false, as has been proven repeatedly.

One of the most eggregious revenue predictions by the CBO was a 1997 prediction they gave to congress before they passed the 1997 capital gains tax cuts. The CBO erroniously predicted that we'd run a $200 billion deficit if that tax cut was passed due to revenue loss from the cut. As it turns out, we ran a $200 billion SURPLUS, due in large part by record-breaking revenue generation from the capital gains tax.

That revenue record was recently rebroken following Bush's capital gains tax cut.

The job of the CBO is not to give accurate information about the effects of tax polocy, but instead to justify every tax hike congress wants. Hence the reason why they bias their methodology in favor of tax hikes.

Oh, and The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities is about as unbiased as the Brookings Institute. Their goal is to lobby for funding for every pork spending project our congressmen can think of.

Loyal Democrat 02-06-07 1:48 am
You prove so well the points made by Dennis.

Libs need to learn the truth that "CHOICES PRODUCE CONSEQUENCES." Sooooo, choices need to be well thought out. Children tend to choose without considering the consequences of their choices. It is true that we are free to make choices, but we are not free to choose the consequences of those choices---so the maturing adult learns to take a look at some of the potential consequences.

Is there something to the old adage: "If by the time you are twenty-one-years-of-age you are NOT A LIBERAL----YOU HAVE NO HEART? And if by the age of forty-one you are NOT A CONSERVATIVE----YOU HAVE NO BRAIN?"

God gave us emotions, brains and volition (will)
we need to use all of them.

Phylo Se Fiser
The unofficial motto over at the CIA is:

"No spies or Republicans here."

I know this from a few folks I know who live in my neighborhood and our kids play soccer together. They are right-wing and have said that the Agency is full of libs and has been ever since the Carter-Church slash and burn act of 1976.

The State Department has been full of liberals and commies since FDR. Guys like Alger Hiss (Soviet Spy) had buddies like Dean Acheson (Truman's SecState and creator of the UN, working with him.

Kinda blows your post outta the water don't it? Believing the CIA or the State Dept is like listening to Kofi Annan.


Gunny
One problem Gunny, the CIA and the State Department were right; Bush and Cheney and you, were wrong.

Kind blows your post outta the water, don't it?

Phylo out.

Jabelson: Some more for ya
From old notes of mine, which I have not updated:

As of July of last year, after the first three quarters of Fiscal Year 2006, tax receipts had increased 13% over the previous year. This was the second highest growth in federal tax receipts in 25 years, over FY 2005, when federal tax receipts grew by 15%.

As of October, the Treasury Department reported that the federal budget deficit had shrunk to $248 billion for FY2006. This put it at 1.9% of GDP, which is, relatively speaking, a very manageable number, 1/3 below the 40-year average deficit of 2.7%.

Tax revenues have increased by $521 billion, the largest two-year increase in history, even accounting for inflation. Corporate tax receipts increased by 76% over the previous two years; Income tax receipts increased by 30%; Dividend and non-withheld receipts also increased (though I don't have the numbers).

Do you get it yet? You are WRONG. Cutting taxes increased tax receipts. Leftist math fails the reality test.

Jabelson
You have a funny idea of what "rights" are...

You wrote: "Fergus, there's not a single social program - except for maybe Social Security, that the right wouldn't cut to the bone if they could "

So social programs are now RIGHTS?

RE: Phylo
As usual, you just can't stick to facts. Zinni was one person against LITTERALLY THOUSANDS. Even intelligence reports from FRACE, of all places, concluded that Iraq had WMDs.

As far as not finding WMDs, it turns out FACTS, as usual, prove YOU to be the moron, kiddo:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/22/060622055545.07o4imol.html

And the uranium from Niger stuff? Funny how the conclusions of the CIA, the Senate investigation, an independent British investigation, and CURRENT British intel STILL disagree with you.

The mobile las? The intel we had at the time is that is what they were. That they turned out to be something else doesn't make that initial statement that they were believed to be weapons labs a lie, you retard.

As for those aluminum tubes, the current assessment is that they WERE intended to be used for nukes, BUT that they weren't built well enough to be used. According to the people in charge of testing them, they claimed there is nothing else they could have been intended for. NOTHING.

Finally, NOBODY said that Iraq and al Qaida were closely tied, just that there were some amount of connections, which has been proven REPEATEDLY. Forget the facts about al Qaida terrorists themselves claiming a connection to this very day (after all, they ARE fighting right now in Iraq), Abu Musaab Zarqawi fled Afghanistan, and was welcomed with open arms in Iraq, where he was hidden until he was killed by our troops.

Yes, you certainly ARE out of your mind. Believe all the nonsense you want, that can't change irrefutable facts.

dang it , Loyal Democrat!
You almost had me biting on the ironical satire again! (1:48 a.m. post) Loyal Democrat serves up a heapin' helping of that PC tripe that sounds like something (albeit disingenuous drivel) like Kimberly might dish up-- except without the vitriol and spewing of venom.

Illegal Immigrants
Compassionate libs will ignore our laws regarding legal entry into the US.What other crimes are we in store for if they have their way? Reason HAS to come into play somewhere or maybe we should all stay children and work on emotions instead of gray matter...ALSO,class,Dhimmicrats love illegals so they can put them on the government graveytrain and insure Dhimmicratic seats .... AND the gutless Republicans like the economic situations of cheap labor....The winners? Illegals The losers? Americas gullible ,unwashed public!!!

Re: Mr. Ecko
"Prager, if you actually read/listen to him, you would know there are few more fair, decent, genuinely concerned for the welfare of others, men in the great country. "

Ok, I do not understand this. To me Prager is unfair, indecent, self-promoting and mostly interested in the sound of his own voice.

Take this for example.

"I believe the Left has been wrong on virtually every great moral issue in the last 30 years."

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2006/07/25/israels_war_separates_the_decent_left_from_the_indecent_left

This is a completely unfair statement to make unless one is willing use a few anectdotes in the space of a few hundred words to whitewash.

Second, the sentence starts with "I". He's self-promoting. See how smart I am? Somebody who makes grandiose statements like that is not interested in the welfare of this country, but in the sound of their own voice.

Prager's comments are never fair. If one is going to generalize about millions of people one had better have something more than hyperbole to back it up.

For example. What is the definition of a liberal?

Common conservative qualities of a liberal include:

1.) communist
2.) socialist
3.) atheist
4.) stupid
5.) anti-American
6.) feel good

Well let's go down the list.

1 & 2.) There are no communist or socialist party members in Congress. Neither does the Democratic platform as written by the DNC promote either agenda. The underlying basis comes from Conservatives claiming that anything collective is socialist. That would make the Constitution socialist given its preamble states its purpose is to promote the General Welfare of the people. The question then is not how socialist the Democrats are, but how much General Welfare the public wants? Barak Obama has come out and stated he believes the "General Welfare" clause means that Universal Healthcare is a right. Arguing Barak Obama is a socialist is a knee-jerk, non-starter argument. Arguing that Universal Healthcare is not practical and too expensive is a great argument for conservatives to counter Obama. Alas, because conservatives like Prager are more interested in the sound of their own voices then getting the job done, bashing liberals as socialists will win the day over arguing the failed practicalities of implementation and therefore conservatives will lose the battle. Denis Prager is not doing conservatives any service.

The fact that liberals are just as silly calling conservatives facisits is no reason for conservatives to fall into the same trap.

3.) Statistically speaking this country is 80% Christian by any polling out there and no atheist exists in Congress. When conservatives make the argument that liberalism = atheism they just make themselves look silly. The numbers don't add up.

4.) This is just silly. The American education system k-12 and Unversity is dominated in no uncertain terms by liberals. This notion that labeling liberals as stupid is probably the most dangerous, wrong-headed notion of the ones I listed. I live in Silicon Valley. Who is creating money? Google, Microsoft, Oracle, and every other tech companies. Every one of these companies makes a pile of money and is creating a new generatation of liberal millionaires. Try and get a job at Google and be stupid. You all had better wake up to the new Information age economy. The new Information Age is driven by Silicon Valley, a very liberal silicon valley. These people believe in meritocracy. Most Americans could not pass a Google or Microsoft interview. The people being hired come from the "stupid" liberal universities. Believing liberals are stupid will hurt conservatives more than any other myth about defining liberals going.

5.) Anti-American. Mostly this is something that follows a discusiong about how liberals are communists and socialists. The best answer to that is California. California has the most liberal regulations going for business. Yet California is the largest economy of any state and when that economy is more than 10% of this country's totaly GDP, even though the population is only 10%.

Silocon Valley just had a symposium on going Green. They are the ones accusing conservatives of being short sighted for not taking global warming seriously.

Prager is not about promoting general welfare. Prager, in his own words, is about promoting himself, "I believe" and getting his jollies listening to it.

I am worried about the future of this country.

Do conservatives have a new generation of millionaires to match all the ones being created by Google, Microsoft and all the tech companies?

While you all busy calling liberals socialists, communists, and stupid, the liberals are out there making a pile of money, by graduating from the toughest universites and applying for jobs based on meritocracy that reward hard intelligent work with making millionaires.

That's the service Prager is providing. Generalizing that the liberal world is still Ted Kennedy while Google has passed him and you all by.




tax rates
i'm reading up on all the new tax laws.
while i was researching i came upon the tax rates for the last several years.


for tax year 1999 federal personal income tax

top 1% paid 36.18%
top 5% paid 55.45%
top 10% paid 66.45%
top 25% paid 83.54%
top 50% paid 96.00%
bottom 50% paid 4.0%


for tax year 2004

top 1% paid 36.89%
top 5% paid 57.13%
top 10% paid 68.19%
top 25% paid 84.86%
top 50% paid 96.70%
bottom 50% paid 3.30%

corporations earning over $18,333,333 pay 35%
plus 28% on capital gains plus an additional
15% accumulated earnings tax. and that doesn't count state and local taxes.

accumulated earnings tax (for income over $250,000) did drop from 39.6% in 2000 to 15% in 2007, but that's IN ADDITION to federal income tax.
i also found that Exxon Corporation alone paid $57 billion in federal, state, and local taxes between 2001 and 2005.
so much for the tax breaks for the wealthy.

so telling, worth repeating!
re:
*************************************************
Sawdust writes: Tuesday, February, 06, 2007 8:19 AM
Jabelson
I won't argue the merits of the current war, each has our own beliefs about that, neither is likely to change. As my father used to tell me, "Never butt heads with a butthead".

But I will mention the disastrous costs of another war, one bought into and sold entirely by liberals, one that has been fought for 42-plus years, at the cost of over 3 Trillion dollars, untold human cost, and not one iota of success. Not a single thing has been accomplished by LBJ's "War on Poverty", which was going to eliminate poverty in this country once and for all.

Now, if you want to look up the numbers, you will find that there are just as many poor around today as there were in 1964. The difference is that 70% of black babies are now illegitimate, the result of 42 years of subsidizing illegitimacy. We have gone from a nation of proud, get-it-done individuals to a bunch of whining, I just wants what's coming to me, parasites. If you libs want to protest war, there's a good one to start with.
************************************************
Excellent post above... actually Sawdust, I have heard that the direct costs of the "War On Poverty" have been more like $7 TRILLION !!!--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Poverty
http://perspicuity.net/civics/poverty.html

When government decides to solve social problems, it actually simply BEGETS them-- at daunting costs. The incentive is to perpetuate bureaucracy, NOT really to eliminate problems (Econ 101).

The WORST thing that ever happened to the so-called poor in America was the War On Poverty... it allowed entitlements to become a state of mind and lifestyle (and a warping, corrupt game) and stanched initiative and achievement incentives until they were forgotten among some.

wrong
Phylo: beowolf, you're so wrong about so many things. Where in the world are you getting your information from? Dennis Prager?

beowolfe: As usual, you just can't stick to facts. Zinni was one person against LITTERALLY THOUSANDS. Even intelligence reports from FRACE, of all places, concluded that Iraq had WMDs.

Phylo: I was repsonding to your statement that EVERYONE in a position to know thought that Iraq had WMD. And Zinni isn't the only person saying that. Though he is one of the people who would be most qualified to comment on WMD in Iraq.

But if you don't like him, how about Paul Pillar:

Ex-CIA Analyst Condemns Bush 'Manipulation Campaign' on Iraq_ Agence France-Presse
Thursday 04 May 2006
A former Middle East specialist of the US Central Intelligence Agency has condemned what he called an organised campaign of manipulation by the Bush administration to justify the Iraq war.
Paul Pillar, a former CIA analyst specialising in counter-terrorism in the Middle East and Asia, said in an interview with the Spanish newspaper El Pais that the United States had particularly wanted to prove a link between Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.
"That was not the case," he was quoted as saying. "I suppose by some definitions that could be called a lie."

Wow, pretty strong stuff.

beowolfe: As far as not finding WMDs, it turns out FACTS, as usual, prove YOU to be the moron, kiddo:

Phylo: Again, not even the White House claims we found WMD, idiot.

beowolfe: And the uranium from Niger stuff? Funny how the conclusions of the CIA, the Senate investigation, an independent British investigation, and CURRENT British intel STILL disagree with you.

Phylo: Have you read the SIC report of the Niger nonsense? I have. And I'll be happy to debate this with you further if you want to further reveal yourself to be a complete fool.

beowolfe: The mobile las? The intel we had at the time is that is what they were. That they turned out to be something else doesn't make that initial statement that they were believed to be weapons labs a lie, you retard.

Phylo: Check this out beowolfe:

Warnings on WMD 'Fabricator' Were Ignored, Ex-CIA Aide Says
By Joby Warrick_Washington Post Staff Writer_Sunday, June 25, 2006; A01

In late January 2003, as Secretary of State Colin Powell prepared to argue the Bush administration's case against Iraq at the United Nations, veteran CIA officer Tyler Drumheller sat down with a classified draft of Powell's speech to look for errors. He found a whopper: a claim about mobile biological labs built by Iraq for germ warfare.

Drumheller instantly recognized the source, an Iraqi defector suspected of being mentally unstable and a liar. The CIA officer took his pen, he recounted in an interview, and crossed out the whole paragraph.
A few days later, the lines were back in the speech. Powell stood before the U.N. Security Council