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Tuesday, January 30, 2007
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Forcing Girls to Cheer for Girls
by Dennis Prager
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


High school cheerleaders must now cheer for girls' teams as often as for boys' teams thanks to federal education officials' interpretations of Title IX, the civil rights law that mandates equal playing fields for both sexes. According to The New York Times, almost no one directly involved wants this -- not the cheerleaders, not the fans, not the boys' teams, and not even the girls' teams. But it doesn't matter: The law coerces cheerleaders to cheer at girls' games.

Of all the myths that surround Left-Right differences, one of the greatest is that the Left values liberty more than the Right. Regarding a small handful of behaviors -- abortion is the best example -- this is true. But overwhelmingly, the further left one goes on the political spectrum, the greater the advocacy of more state control of people's lives.

That is why, with the exception of Nazism -- which was an acronym for National Socialism but, rightly or wrongly, because it was race- and nationalism-based and because it allowed private enterprise, Nazism has been generally considered a far-right, not far-left, doctrine -- nearly all totalitarianism of the 20th century was on the Left.

By definition, the moment one crosses from center to left, one accepts more government control of people's lives. Therefore, the further left society moves, the more there is government control over its citizens' lives. It is astonishing that this obvious fact is not universally acknowledged and that the Left has somehow successfully portrayed itself as preoccupied with personal liberty with regard to anything except sexual behavior and abortion.

Taxation is an obvious example. It is difficult to imagine greater government control of a person's life than forcing the person to give half or more of his honorably earned money to the state under threat of being imprisoned. All rational people acknowledge the need for taxes -- who other than the state should pay for police, roads and national defense, and serve as the last resort for the truly helpless? But all rational people should equally acknowledge that the greater percentage of one's money the state forcefully confiscates, the less liberty the individual has.

But the single greatest example is law. The means by which the state exerts control over the individual is law. As with taxes, the more laws, the less individual liberty. And just as rational people acknowledge the need for taxation, all rational people appreciate society's need for laws. But just as taxes increase the further left one moves, so, too, the number of laws passed increases.

As liberalism has moved left in the past 50 years, there has been a veritable explosion of legislation. That is why the mainstream, i.e., liberal, news media, characterize local, state and federal legislatures as successes or failures based on the number of laws the legislature has passed. The worst legislature is one that repeals laws, and the next to worst is a "do-nothing" Congress or state legislature, in other words, one that has not passed enough new laws.

There are many reasons for the liberal/progressive/Left's adoration of laws. Three of them are:

1. Most activists on the Left believe that they, not only their values, are morally superior to their adversaries. Therefore, coercing people to adhere to "progressive" values is morally acceptable, even demanded. It is thus quite understandable that laws would compel high school cheerleaders to cheer at girls' athletic events as much as at boys'. And true to leftist totalitarian models, not only is behavior is coerced, but emotions as well. As The New York Times article reported, "a statewide group of physical education teachers in California called for cheerleaders to attend girls' and boys' games 'in the same number, and with equal enthusiasm' as part of its five-year goals." It is Orwellian, but not inconceivable, that either the California legislature or a California judge will require "equal enthusiasm" from cheerleaders at the girls' games.

2. "Progressives" are often unsuccessful in competing in the marketplace of ideas. Same-sex marriage and affirmative action are two contemporary examples. And when persuasion fails, laws are used. If you can't convince, coerce.

3. The more secular the society, the more laws are needed to keep people in check. When more people feel accountable to God and moral religion, fewer laws need to be passed. But as religion fades, something must step into the moral vacuum it leaves, and laws compelling good behavior result.

Unlike the nearly contemporaneous French Revolution, which affirmed "egalite" along with "liberte," the American Revolution never held equality equal to liberty. The Founders knew that you cannot have both, and so, the further left one moves, i.e., the more like France and Western Europe we become, the more coerced equality and the less personal liberty we will have.

Now even high school cheerleaders know that.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Politickal Animal
You hit right on my objection:

"That is why, with the exception of Nazism -- which was an acronym for National Socialism but, rightly or wrongly, because it was race- and nationalism-based and because it allowed private enterprise, Nazism has been generally considered a far-right, not far-left, doctrine -- nearly all totalitarianism of the 20th century was on the Left."

Generally considered a far right doctrine? No it is not. There are still many who still consider WL Shirer's placing of National Socialism on the right as definitive, which Prager obviously does. N-S wasn't about nationalism so much as it was about race and the 'germanic' peoples. In like manner, Communism wasn't about nationalism so much as it was about workers and the class struggle.

They both had different schticks but the mechanisms for control were the same: one party dictatorships. And neither ideology was restricted by national boundaries.

I agree with others here: Prager is sometime quite arrogant in his generalized ignorance.

Left or Right?
Mr. Prager's comments on nazism being of the left or right speak to a major political confusion of our times that has not served our Republic well. Somehow, the Left has managed by smoke and mirrors, design, or simply luck, to confuse America's perception of the nazi movement in 20th century Germany with what they call "right wing" politics in America today.

National SOCIALISM is a context clue that they are wrong. In no way should a state controlled, state-aggrandizing, state uber alles movement such as the nazis ever be construed as a right wing movement. It is so of the Left as to be laughingly obvious. Except to those who would not like it to be thought about too deeply. And to those taken in by the shell game being played on the table of American political life.

Under Nazi rule, freedoms were leached from all Germans a bit at a time over a decade or less. Faster, if you were a Jew.

Under the rule of the Left, freedoms have eroded from the average American, a bit at a time for quite a while now. Strangely, the very nature of conservatism now leads many to the right of whatever the Left stands for today, to adopt and protect the very things they abhor. As if they were legitimate and established ways of being free.

The Right even permits the Left to label them as nazis. Which only further confuses the already history and remedial civics-challenged American voting population. How very convenient for the (hidden?) agenda of the Left.

And hey, speaking of Global Warming,
Allen, what about that -8 degrees F at Chicago? With the "wind-chill factor," it is expected to go down to 35 BELOW ZERO!:
......................................

"Wind chill warning in effect until 9 am CST Monday...
Wind Chill Advisory in effect from 9 am Monday to 9 am CST Tuesday...
Overnight
Bitterly cold. Clear. Lows 10 to 15 degrees below zero outlying areas to around 5 below zero downtown. Wind chills as low as 30 below to 35 below zero. Northwest winds 10 to 15 mph."
http://www.wunderground.com/US/IL/Chicago-O'Hare_International.html#WIN
*****************************************

But hey, I can keep pasting this stuff until I am blue in the face and you guys will still pretend that it is nothing.

You know, blue in the face like anyone who walks outside in Chicago today.

I'll bet they are praying for Global Warming.

Allen- Hmmmmmm I wonder
why the Left keeps saying that they are out to protect the "little guy," but here are some little cheerleaders being picked on and pushed around by powerful old gals in comfy shoes, and all you want us to do is abandon them to their fate.

Allen- if Cheerleading is unimportant
then why is the Left attacking it.

We are only pushing back against the PC crowd who is seeking to destroy our culture.

If it is such an unimportant thing, let the gals in comfy shoes drop it first.

cheering
I think and my daughter thinks this is silly. but, relating it to Nazi's is just as silly. With all your ideas, I bet you support the Iraq War.

Deb - Equal Participation?
Deb.

Cheerleading is a voluntary sport, as is basketball.
* Do you force girls to play basketball?
* Why then would you force girls to cheer for basketball?

Part of the problem with your premise is that you see basketball as a sport, but cheerleading as a sideshow. The cheerleaders deserve the same degree of esteem that you place on the basketball players. In many cases, they are the better athletes.

Until you force your girl athlete to play all girl sports, don't propose to force my girl athlete to support all girl sports. She signed up to be a football cheerleader, just as your girl signed up to be a basketball player.



Deb - Why not have boys
cheering for girls teams?

The truth is that girls do not have the same upper body strength that the guys do, so the look like second string compared to boys basketball.

It is an honor to cheer for the best team, and so it is appropriate that the best cheerleaders get to cheer for the boys' team.

Just being silly
I was just thinking that if the women's sports departments want to increase attendance at girls' events, the may want to try the following:

Have the girls wrestling team dress like the ones on the World Wrestling Federation show.

Here's another suggestion: try Roller Derby; I think it is still popular.

Girls cheering for girls....
My daughter is a high school athlete. At most of her home basketball games, the Junior Varsity cheerleaders cheer at the games. The Varsity cheerleaders attend all of the boys' basketball games. The disparity in the level of experience of cheerleader is bad enough; your suggestion that cheerleaders should not have to cheer at girls' games is preposterous.

Good cheerleading invigorates teams and their fans. Girls' sports should get the same level of support as do the boys teams, including cheerleading. Your argument does not hold weight with me.

Vigilante- you must be proud!
Vigilante writes: Tuesday, January, 30, 2007 8:40 PM
Sorry
First quote above should have been attributed to Sardine.
************************************

No problem, and good luck to your daughter and her team in their competitions!

I have watched these talented kids on TV and have always been amazed at their talent and skill!

No offense to the Basketball Gals, but I never watch them.

vic
About a million posts ago you asked if I advocate combining girls teams and boys teams in sports. I do not; I only advocate that in those cases when girls CAN meet the same standards, they be ALLOWED to join the Big Kids and not be simply shunted off to a "Girls League" simply because their anatomy isn't correct. I want to see the best players compete at the top level and I am not out there counting how many of what size, shape, colour, national origin, gender, sexual preference or odour are included in the field.

My point was that for every ridiculous Title IX ruling that girls must "cheer with equal enthusiasm" for boys and girls, there is a Title IX ruling that prevents the No Girls Allowed Club from exiling "girls" to the fringes on the basis of nothing except their gender.

It wasn't that long ago when my college would not admit 'girls' to classes in Logic because the professor said that 'girls are not logical' and that was good enough for the rest of the faculty. My roommate and I were the ones who broke that barrier and forced him reluctantly to agree that gender has nothing at all to do with the ability to think logically.

In years to come, a lot of these distinctions will be worked out so that one stupid "cheerleader" decision won't be reason enough to destroy the whole program -- any more than admitting one excellent woman racing driver to the grid on merit will mean that every girl who wants a drive has to be given one from now on. Until then we'll just have to deal with this stuff on a case by case basis.

Sardine
Actually that isn't true. I am a recovering Catholic.

Viagra
True story from the annals of the ER where I work: Patient comes in on a Monday unable to urinate. Patient is middle-aged and has a long psych history. Seems that some nimrod doctor prescribed Viagra for him so he spent the entire weekend masturbating. The diagnosis on the chart was Excessive Masturbation. Your tax dollars at work. And don't even get me started on the patient and the vacuum cleaner hose....

Sardine I never claimed to be a Christian. I'm a Catholic dammit.

Foolish outrage
I agree with Dennis Prager that men and women are different in many ways and that *sometimes* the government goes too far, in the name of "equality" and feminist ideology, to try to ignore or legislate away these differences. In this case, however, I think it is Mr. Prager who is going too far to try and find something to be outraged about. I think it is entirely reasonable that, if a school is going to have girls' sports teams and cheerleading squads, the cheerleaders should be expected to cheer for the girls' teams as well as the boys' teams.

Mr. Prager seems to feel that there is something unnatural or even sexually perverted about girls cheering for girl athletes. That's absurd. I would think most cheerleaders would probably want to support their friends and schoolmates on the girls' teams. And if some of them feel less motivated to cheer for girls, because they aren't romantically attracted to other girls-- well, tough. I figure it's part of the "job" of a cheerleading squad to show enthusiasm and support, and inspire it in others, even if they don't happen to feel it inwardly. Based on Prager's premise that cheerleaders should only cheer for athletes they feel attracted to sexually, a cheerleader might as well be allowed to say, "Hey, I want to be a cheerleader in good standing, but you dropped my boyfriend from the football team, so I'm not going to cheer for that team."

Yes, ideally this decision should be made by local schools and school boards, not by the Federal government. And no doubt the idea od "cheerleader equality" could be carried to ridiculous lengths ("We measured the decibels and the cheers for the boys were louder than the girls' cheers! The girls' constitutional rights have been violated!") However, the basic idea that girls' sports deserve cheerleading support too makes sense to me.

Off Topic
Sardine. Thank you for your service to our country, and for putting yourself on the line so that guys like me can sleep in peace. It is because of guys like you that we have the freedoms that we enjoy... the very freedom to post in this forum is because of soldiers like you who faught, and continue to fight for our freedom. Thank you.

Not Funny At All
That is the way it is and if you need it use it and don't be ashamed to do so - should you advertise? No but no shame in getting a little help - Your grandpa might not be able to do much with it anyway - if I was the lady I would have to curtail him - but then they might be old friends and she takes it with a grain of salt or the whole bag whichever - by the way I have never had airport security go through my meds - but maybe they made an exception for Russ considering his rep

Vigilante
Not a shot at your kid just how it is now days - Mountain Rose is thinking about when she was in high school - but I go to the local high school football games and there are some hefty girls out there - most of them very pretty but again you can't exclude on the basis of appearence -

Ok REALLY Sorry
Looks like BOTH of my quotes were originally from Sardine.

Sorry
First quote above should have been attributed to Sardine.

Mountain Rose
"As with the girls cheering for girls they have decided in recent years that you cannot exclude a person from the cheerleading squad based on physical appearance".

The National Highschool Cheerleading Championships will be held next week in Orlando, and will be broadcast sometime over the next month on ESPNII. I would encourage you to watch it.

These girls are some of the best trained athletes at the highschool Varsity level, for ANY sport. If they can't do roundoff back handsprings, they would be eliminated in tryouts. And it progresses from there.

"As far as the girls in baggy pants playing basketball they usually have better bodes then the cheerleaders many of whom have to fork lifted on the bus "

Not sure what school or area you are speaking of, but at the varsity state and national competitive level you can't be any more wrong than you are.

Sardine- not familiar with Viagra
but I used to get tearful calls from the neighbor of my 86-year-old stepfather.

She was half his age.

It seems he had a crush on her and would show up at her door waving a handful of Viagra, offering to go upstairs with her.

Of course, I would sympathize with her, but had to admit that it was very funny that the old geezer was still sexually harassing women.

I have since heard that this is a big problem at nursing homes, where these old guys terrorize the female patients and the nursing staff.

I guess if you are the victim it isn't funny, but it would be worth a SNL skit anyway.


betty- hehehe!
Thanks!

I know enough Lefties who believe in all sorts of things to know they are not all atheists.

I live in Southern California, you know.

I know that some Mormon "fringie non-normies" are polygamists, but the church stopped the practice in the LDS church years ago.

I am not a Mormon, nor am I in favor of Polygamy.

But I do plan to vote for Mitt Romney.

Betty
Wow a real Christian

Mountain Rose
As with the girls cheering for girls they have decided in recent years that you cannot exclude a person from the cheerleading squad based on physical appearance - a lot has changed and it ain't all for the good - now I see where you are coming from with the girls cheering for girls - sure is way out from the old days but there it is - they cheer for the team and should cheer harder for the girls who compete just like them

Mountain Rose
Sorry for my absence, I was watching my grandchildren today (the wrecking crew). Either I am hallucinating or someone else said it, because I have reread these comments 3 times and now it's not there. Actually, the post started with 'Atheism which is a characteristic of the left' something something. If I am wrong I apologize.
Here's something you may find humorous, I did-last week in the local newspaper, it seems the City Council wants to license panhandlers, some of whom are getting really agressive. Kind of begs the question where would they get the money for the license and if they were fined for an infraction, how would they pay for it? Local government can be, and sometimes is, as clueless as the County, State and Federal government is.
You said I was naive. That is not even close to describing me. I proudly admit I am a card-carrying, union supporting democrat and liberal on most issues. On others, such as gun control and the death penalty, not so much. BTW,I was the one nattering about polygamy earlier and if the practice survives to this day due to religious "tolerance" and in spite of laws prohibiting it, then why not gay marriage? How does this adversely effect anyone? Not allowing it would seem to violate the pursuit of happiness part of the Bill of Rights. As far as the movie Zoo, I have no intention to see it not because the acts are abhorrent but to me it constitutes cruelty to animals and I will not countenance cruelty in any form by anyone against anyone or thing. That being said, I agree with you when you say it makes your day if you upset someone. To me the idea is to give ulcers not get them. But in a street fight, I would win.

Mountain Rose
By the way your comment about Rush using the bouncing cheerleaders instead of Viagra is off base – Viagra is not a sexual stimulant – it is a medication that helps men with erectile dysfunction – it allows them to get an perform sexualy if and only if they are sexually stimulated – great stuff

Phylo

Can you make it "Out and gone" next time?

Girls in baggy pants and comfy shoes
sardine101 writes: Tuesday, January, 30, 2007 6:48 PM
Mountain Rose
"As far as the girls in baggy pants playing basketball they usually have better bodes then the cheerleaders many of whom have to fork lifted on the bus"
**********************************

What highschool did you go to?

The cheerleaders at my highschool were georgeous. And they were nice people too.

I guess that is the effect of growing up in Southern California. California Girls, you know.

Basketball gals may have nice bodies, but you can't see them under their gang-inspired attire. Perhaps this is the answer to the girl's sports attendance delima.

Have the girl teams wear cheerleader outfits.

You could "kill two birds with one stone!"

First of all, the skimpy outfits will attract more men to attend girl's sports events.

Secondly, the girls on the bench can cheer their team members on to victory, with probably much more sincere enthusiasm than any cheerleader would feel.





Mountain Rose
So you are only kidding around with all your nasty comments????????? Russ is a public figure and he has to take his shots – when you go on the air and shot down drugs and then you abuse them you lose credibility - you mentioned Russ like he was an authority on something - again talking heads stir it up and their opinions are no better than anyone else's - by the way I am not a liberal - I am an American who served 29 years in the army with two tours of duty in Vietnam - out of 12 presidential elections I voted democrat twice once for JFK and once for Kerry who was no great shakes but better than Bush - maybe you are kidding but you come off as a nasty person - again my opinion and worth just what it costs

We need more male cheerleaders...
... just like Dubya was!

BenL- Swimmers want Cheerleaders too!

Maybe you guys should start aggitating for Cheerleaders at swim meets.

They could have Buzby Berkly/Esther Williams-style half time shows, with bathing beauties rising from the sea, sparklers attached to their bathing caps!

Think of how many spectators that would attract!

Sardines have no sense of humor!
Can't you tell when someone is kidding around with you?

And speaking of nasty comments: which is meaner - to call someone a jerk, a bigot, and a dope addict who "can't get it up," or meaner to ask if sardines sleep 3 to a can?

If you think I am being mean when I joke about Barbero getting married, just wait a few years until the Left starts pushing "inter-species marriage."

When they do, don't be surprised.

And remember, you heard it here first.

And perhaps you will take back the moniker "nasty."

But probably not because by then all the Left will be enthusiastically behind the idea, and think that anyone who opposes it is mean.

Implement Title IX Across the Board
I totally agree with Title IX. It is not fair that 60,000 plus tickets are sold for football games, while the attendants at swimming events are usually less a hundred. In the spirit of Title IX, ticket sales for football and basketball games should be limited to the same level as other sports such as swimming, tennis, golf and water polo. As a swimmer in college, I got very angry when nobody showed up for our meets. I demand equal time for swimming. To all football fans, if you want to continue enjoying your sport, I demand that you come to swimming, too. Afterall, that is the law.

Mountain Rose
"How can all you Christians be so mean as to deny Barbero and horses like him the ability to marry the human he loved?"

You need help lady -

To the flash
As I said in an earlier post, the feds are currently requiring equal funding.

Mountain Rose
Your nasty personal comments don't bother me - it goes hand in hand with your Christianity - The man is a dope addict - he may be a recovering dope addict but one never the less - anyone who listens to talking heads doesn't have a mind of their own - their opinions being no better than any of the ones posted here - including yours

As far as the girls in baggy pants playing basketball they usually have better bodes then the cheerleaders many of whom have to fork lifted on the bus

To Drewrush
You will note that what I said in my post was "a working definition". I’m sure that the leftist academics will have a much fancier definition that is designed largely to obfuscate the issues so that reasonable people will be more receptive. Socialism takes from the doers to give to the not doers, So too does communism, except that under communism the government owns the means of production. I find both forms of economics/governments equally odious. You speak of the government in the former USSR as being totalitarian as if that means that socialism/communism did not get a valid chance of success. What it actually is is the logical progression of this form of economics/government. You can not have this type of economy without a strong central government (hence with socialism/communism government and economy are mixed). The more socialist the policies, the stronger the government has to become to implement them. As it works its way to communism the government becomes despotic. This is an inherent factor in this type of society because the product must be removed from the producer at the point of a gun. As it progresses on down the road you will always wind up with a despot at the end.

utahnotmormon- of course I was kidding
around with sardine101 (hoping there aren't 100 other fishies in that can with him).

Although I think someone was nattering earlier about Mormons & Polygamy... which they haven't practiced for many years.

Of course with this Sundance film, "Zoo," we may be asked to fight all manner of odd marriages that make polygamy look tame.

For example, Barbero, the race horse who was just euthanized. What if he hadn't been able to afford such good medicare? Well he would have succumbed to his condition much earlier. Much better if he had been able to marry some human with a good insurance policy.

How can all you Christians be so mean as to deny Barbero and horses like him the ability to marry the human he loved?

The problem is in the word "equal"
Everyone on this thread is using the same word "equal" but each has a different meaning of it. Not just different ideas of equal as a noun, but as an adjective, as in equal rights.

Most lefties say equal but mean "interchangable". As in the sex of one's spouse, or of a bishop or an athelete for example. They also use the term equal rights when what they really want is equal outcomes, such as equal income between men and women, or equal numbers of athletes in identical sports as in Title IX.

The right (as in correct) meaning of equal is equivalent, not interchangable. You can put a 60 watt bulb in a socket or a 100 watt bulb. THey are interchangable but will not use the same amount of energy or product the same amount of heat and light.

The right uses equal rights to mean equal opportunity. Title IX, if continuing to be interpreted on this course will outlaw separate sports for men and women, and both would have to compete at the same time. If that was the case, I would predict that all the records for speed, strength, endurance would be held by men. Just look at every world record in the Olympics for events that have identical rules for men and women, whether it is the 100 meter dash, the decathalon, weight-lifting, marathon, shot-put, discus, javelin etc.

Then women would complain that Title IX is discrimatory against women and repeal the very law that they demanded to end discrimination. But, heh, its a woman's prerogative to change her mind.

Did someone mention polygamy?
Hey, it's my secret sweetie, Mtn Rose.

Actually, the bad press polygamy has gotten in Utah surrounds cults that use teenage girls in arranged marriages to older men, sometimes relatives.

Most polygamists are consenting adults who work hard and mind their own business. It's religion-based, weird as it is. While not in favor, I'm not opposed, based on freedom of religion.

However, when they end up with 29 children on welfare, that's a problem.

sardine101
sardine101 writes: Tuesday, January, 30, 2007 4:47 PM
"Same Sex Marriage
Who cares ???? who does it hurt - how is taking money out of your pocket - what impact does it have on your well being ??????? Again nasty war - deficit - no health care for kids but we gotta worry about two folks of the same sex sleeping together???"
****************************************

Sardines usually sleep 3 to a can:

http://www.bumblebee.com/products_fam.jsp?famid=5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardine

Are you also in favor of Polygamy?

Something is fishy here!

don't hold back, sardine101
tell us what you REALLY think:

don't be shy now!
************************************
sardine101 writes: Tuesday, January, 30, 2007 4:50 PM
'Mountain Rose
Rush is a dope addict - a biggot - a pistol mouth - and a jerk - his comment about Parkinsons Disease proved that - "I just didn't want my name on that bottle of Viagra." Ashamed that he can't get it up - what a loser'
************************************

Perhaps Rush should try watching pretty cheerleaders jump up and down.

This may save him the cost of medication.

Just though I would tie your comments into the discussion.

Handy
Could be like I said all about money - so he would have had to been paid a lot to do that - never followed tenis so he might have been a contender but I don't see how at his age - it was hyped up so everyone would watch it but maybe I was out of country at the time cause I sure didn't

CaballeroKid- Thanks!
I enjoy your comments too!

Sometimes I upset people, but usually that makes my day! (he he)

Betty...boop
"If the sanctimonious and puritanical Mr. Prager has problems with cheerleading he needs a hobby."

Did you even read this article, or are you just pissed off? Where do you draw the line that Prager has a problem with cheerleading? This ad-hominem crap has no place here. Address the issue!

Mountain Rose...LOL
"The BBC, The BBC, The BBC...
BBC One, BBC Two, BBC Three, BBC Four..."

I gotta say I love your comments on all of these subjects every day. You are as sharp as a tack.

wiseone, vic, tbmbuzz
"The working theories of socialism and communism as currently practiced is that communism is socialism with no private property. The United States currently has a large element of socialism in its functioning. With the onset of Kelo we are beginning to move towards Communism." ~Vic

"To put it another way, Communism is simply socialism carried to its logical end." ~tbmbuzz

Vic, can you point me to those theories? Further, is not communism without private property just socialism without a limit on what the government will plan? that's why I said that I thought communism was the economic system of either a totalitarian socialism or a community-based anarchy. It seems that you're saying communism is like socialism, except that there is no private property. I think that's the same as saying it is socialism without private property, and that by using the term communism you're really just describing a larger degree of socialism. Another way I can ask the question is:

The economic difference between socialism and communism is the private property/no private property distinction, respectively. What is the political difference?

I see no political difference, only an economic one, which is why I consider the communism that took place in the Soviet Union nothing more than totalitarian socialism.

tbmbuzz, I agree with what you said, however I would say that the only way for socialism to come to an end is if the political structure came to an end, thus going from totalitarian socialism to community-based anarchism. This is the only political difference I can discern.

Perhaps the REAL reason for making
the pretty girls jump up and down at the girl gams is that no one wants to see lady basketball players in those baggy shorts, but maybe they will get guys to show up and watch the cheerleaders.

Mountain Rose
Rush is a dope addict - a biggot - a pistol mouth - and a jerk - his comment about Parkinsons Disease proved that - "I just didn't want my name on that bottle of Viagra." Ashamed that he can't get it up - what a loser

Prager's Prattle
First of all, let's congratulate DP for his focus on a pressing matter: for whom the cheerleaders will toll. One has to wonder how the "poll results" were generated. My concern here is for Mr. Prager's generalizations regarding "liberals," a blurry line he so often crosses. Has it not been the case that the outcomes of several initiatives voted on in individual states, such as medical marijuana and "right to die," which seem to reflect the "will of the people" in those states, have been ignored by a conservative (presumably "anti-liberal") Justice Department? I may or may not agree with said initiatives, but am simply making the point that the generalizations made by Mr. Prager are neither fair nor accurate. He is a classic stereotyper.

Same Sex Marriage
Who cares ???? who does it hurt - how is taking money out of your pocket - what impact does it have on your well being ??????? Again nasty war - deficit - no health care for kids but we gotta worry about two folks of the same sex sleeping together???

Phylo- if you don't like Dennis
I believe that Rush Limbaugh has a program on the air at the same time.

Any time you start thinking that Prager is arrogant, try a dose of Rush-bo, who is intentionally arrogant, just for fun.

Vigilante
No that just makes her smart - and cheering for the girls teams does not make her a lesbian either

caballerokid, again
as per your comment re: homosexual marriage, i would love to answer, but have 20 mins, so i couldnt do your statement, nor my perspective one, justice. but, i will address the brainwashing.

i'll illustrate by example: you have someone who is a stalwart christian. they have accepted christ for over 50 years and will not give him up. this is the type of belief i'm talking about. not the type of belief where you can look in a book and find the answer. i'm talking about value judgments. this is good or bad. sure, those judgments are informed by certain facts, but in the end not even facts can change peoples' minds. those are the situations of which i was discussing.

i was taking as an assumption no method --not even education-- could persuade someone to change their belief. in other words, force is the only recourse. further, if you could persuade someone, you would not be changing them, they would be changing themselves. that's why i said it makes no sense to say that you can change someone's belief. there's that little filter called the other person that you have to get through to do that.

Vigilante
Congrats on your daughter - hope her team wins - sorry I can't make it however if you give me the date and time that she performs I will cheer for her back here in Killeen Texas and if it is after 1800 hours I will request that the folks at the VFW cheer also - probably cost me some drinks but what the hell - hope she is not wearing any skimpy - skanky outfits - you know like the ones that Kath described

caballerokid
"I do not know how a minority could use the LEGISLATURE to pass laws..." (emphasis added)

Caballero,
I said using the LEGISLATURE. Your examples were all referring to liberals using the JUDICIARY to bend, change or get rid of laws, not make them. Basically, I'm wondering how it is that a minority in a legislative body (think republicans now, what the dems were 95-07) could use that body to change the laws.

"This happens all the time. There is a small minority who wants to impose their views on the majority. For example..."

Even what you said doesn't make sense. How could a small minority of senators (10) make the others (90) do their bidding?

I mentioned the legislature in response to hackamores statement that the only people who make more laws based on what they think is right is the minority.

First, that makes no sense as the legislature "makes" laws, and therefore the minority would be in a poor position to make laws as they don't have enough votes for same. Thus, it is not true that it is only the minority who makes laws based on what they think is right. In fact, using the legislature, only the majority could do that, unless I'm wrong here, which is why I asked if it were possible for the minority to use the legislature for that purpose.

Second, it is probably more correct to say that the minority "makes" laws by filing lawsuits when they believe their view of things is right, and the majority passes laws by introducing bills into the legislature when they believe their view of things is right.

Hypothetical
If my daughter prefers to cheer for boys teams instead of girls teams, does that make her a homophobe?

flaming liberal multiculturalist
If you read Caballerokid's responses, there are a few of the reasons for the increasing complexity of our laws. Leftist judges revisiting the constitution to satify a miscontent faction of society.

Adding laws for public safety,yes, the framers had that in mind, but adding laws to placate political groups?? No

Dennis is absolutely correct in this working man's eyes.







Betty- refresh my mind
Betty writes: Tuesday, January, 30, 2007 1:27 PM
Mountain Rose
Stating that the left are all atheists is not very nice. Why would you make such an assertion? Do you have proof of this? Any liberals who post on this site are vilified for one reason or another. It's enough to make a person plotz. Your apology is accepted.
OT-"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful", from the Code of Hammurabi, one of the worlds most ancient code of laws extant.
*********************************

Perhaps I am getting old.

I do not recall saying all Leftists are atheists.

Please copy and past my statement so I can remember.

However if your point is that I am not very nice in what I say, I plead guilty as charged.

ALSO- regarding the law of Hammurabi- if we are going to protect the weak from the powerful, then we need to protect the dainty cheerleaders from the strong, athletic gals in comfortable shoes who are attempting to boss them around.

National Highschool Cheerleading
My daughter will be cheering at Disney-Orlando next weekend in the national highschool cheerleading championships (2/10-2/11/07). I plan to enforce equal crowd participation while I am there. Anyone not cheering for my daughter will be reminded that everyone deserves the same degree of enthusiasm. If anyone insists on discriminating against my daughter by stifling their enthusiasm, I will be forced to step in and issue a verbal citation. If that doesn’t work, a little physical force will be exerted to ensure understanding and compliance. If that does not work, it’s gonna be GO TIME.

By the way, all genders and preferences are welcome to attend the national championships as a spectator, as long as you have $25 to get in and plan on cheering with equal enthusiasm for all teams present. I’ll be watching you…

drewrush
In response to your comments: "if one believes consensual homosexual marriage isn't wrong, they will get married. Christians want to enjoin them from getting married even if it doesn't change their (Christian) beliefs."

Your example is very germane to this conversation: Let me first say that this entire issue of gay marriage was not FIRST raised by Christians, but homosexuals. Most conservatives today, even Christians, would leave homosexuality out of the political process -- it's when those on the Left demand that the state force all of us to behave in conformity with the vision of the Left, that conservatives and Christians see a need to oppose their political efforts.

If this were only about your marriage, we say, then maybe we could work something out. If we’re only talking about the two of you, then no real harm will be done in society. But we are not only talking about two people. Same-sex proponents are asking everyone — all of society — to dramatically and permanently alter their definition of family, to say that male and female are not essential for marriage, family and society. They want us to believe male and female are merely optional for the family. Saying male and female don’t really matter is harmful to all of us. So it's not that we're "forcing" our beliefs on others, but protecting our family's interest and for generations to come.

Your other comment: "...it's basically impossible to change someone's beliefs without the use of methods such as torture or brainwashing." You present a rather bleak view of enlightenment or sharing views. Simply getting an education, one can change one's beliefs. I am convinced that many liberals in America today just don't understand the facts and that's why they "follow the leader" as "sheeple" not really knowing the consequences of liberalism. Sharing my perspective by no means is torturous or brainwashing. They can adopt it if it makes sense to them, or drop it if it doesn't.

CVN65
I would never insult the U.S. Navy - it is just that you were complaining about your times on station in the Gulf and no more Med cruises which went down the tubes when the Wall went down - When I was stationed in Italy one of my customers was the sub tender USS Gilmore in Sardinia - great folks - I always admired the Navy Radiomen - worked with them in Vietnam in the MACV telecommunications center - Navy Chief in charge and my shift/watch supervisor was an RM1 - they were much better trained and more versatile then their counter parts in the Army or Air Force

Again if Gunny called her a moonbat and you agreed with his post then you are concurring that she is a moonbat

Again she pulls your chains and you are never going to do anything but make her happy when you reply -

Phylo Se Fizer
I would like to address your point: ........."Notice how he (Prager) is saying that the more extreme left you become, the more you will accept government control of people's lives....While this is undoubtedly true, notice how he seems to be completely oblivious to the fact that the same is true when you go to extremes on the right....."

I am at least glad that you acknowledge that "the more extreme left you become, the more you will accept government control of people's lives". First of all, doesn't that statement disturb you (or any liberal for that matter)?

"....Is anyone seriously going to contend that the Taliban are a bunch of liberal progressives?...."

It is you who is trying to classify the Taliban on the wrong end of the political spectrum. No, by definition the Taliban is not liberal progressive, but the IRONY in all of this is the modern-day liberal fallacy that they are advocates for "liber"ty, when in reality, liberals are fighting for MORE government, laws, etc. As I mentioned in my first posting here, Sharia (Islamic Law which the Taliban governed by) is religious laws ENFORCED in society. They are written into politics because Muhammed, their prophet, was a religous AMD secular leader...therefore there is no distinction between church and state.

The Taliban example you give, is more the example of "Liberalism" run amock...once again, referring back to Prager, "the further left one goes on the political spectrum, the greater the advocacy of more state control of people's lives." Sharia is a tight control on people's lives and this is what today's liberals aim for (ironically). I agree with Prager.


"This is the guy (Prager)who claims he has no agenda and is fair to both sides."

I don't see Prager advancing an agenda as much as he is calling a spade a spade. He is exposing liberal fallacy for what it is.

Girls Hockey in MN
I'm sorry if I am repeating something that has already been written. Here in Minnesota, The State Of Hockey, the girls hockey teams demanded that their state tournament be held at the Xcel Energy Center just like the boys. The boys are able to fill the arena where the MN Wild played, and the excitement for the games is high. The girls played in a much smaller arena where the womens Gophers team plays. When the girls got their way, complaints arose because the atmosphere had dramatically changed due to a huge arena that was almost empty in comparison to the boys games.

Green Lantern
Thank you. It's nice to see someone stand up to this nonsense for a change.


Drewrush
"I do not know how a minority could use the legislature to pass laws..."

This happens all the time. There is a small minority who wants to impose their views on the majority. For example: 1) atheists want "God" taken out of the pledge of allegiance and off the dollar, the cross taken out of San Diego, etc.

2) homosexuals want to alter the definition of marriage for their purpsoses...affecting ALL of us.

3) how many times a week do we read/hear of an individual wanting laws changed JUST to suit their own preference....shall I continue to list?

Now look at these scenarios...what school of thought do you see them coming from??? A conservative or liberal posture?

The Purpose of Title IX
was to eliminate "discrimination" in school funding for boys programs vs. girls programs. The actual interpretation of the law by the time the bureaucrats finished writing the code was that an equal amount of money had to be spent on the programs. Since at the large colleges the football programs were the single largest programs by a large margin it meant that almost all of the other male programs had to be eliminated at the same time that a lot of new female programs were created. It did not matter that both males AND females supported a program. This is the real problem with ALL federal programs. Congress can pass a law, but the bureaucrats will ultimately decide how it is implemented.

Kimberly
I would suppose that she would qualify as a moonbat but I do not engage in those types of attacks. Neither do I insult the another's branch of service. I agree that she is always yanking our chains. Don't you think we know that? That is why I try to get others to ignore her! That was my point today- it is really hard to not respond to her!

sardine101
Starting to have a real problem here, friend. Go back and read my post to Kimberly and see where "moonbat" appears. It doesn't appear there or in my post to the Gunny. Again, I would appreciate an apology. (BTW we never ran into any IEDs on the carrier. I suppose that this is a poke at my service, that it was not dangerous enough. Do you have any idea who takes care of injured Marines? If I was so safe on a carrier why was I boots dry in the desert with a field hospital from 3-03 to 5-03?)

I Love Texas
VERY good point you raise....What if the cheerleaders don't cheer with equal enthousiasm???

Let the ACLU decide on the punishment??? As I've said before, Article IX was NEVER thought through to the end. It has resulted in a disaster, socially. It was short term thinking...just like so many Americans today who want their pie here and now without ever measuring out what the real consequences lie over the horizon. This is liberal endoctrination pure and simple. Thank you ACLU.

CVN65
Well if you never used the term "moonbat" then I stand corrected - if you have used that term or even agreed to it in your responses my statement stands but she still pulls y'alls collective chains and she just loves it - makes her day –

As I have said before circular arguments - but since I am retired it is nice to communicate with anyone now days - most folks are good Americans on this page contrary to what you read - this is a capitalistic nation – liberal or conservative that is how it is - nothing wrong with that and you won't get away from it by moving to Canada or Australia - same deal - it is about money always was - always will be ala "Platoon"

Vigilante
I laughed so hard at your posting. Thank you for projecting how Article IX will truly carry out...eventually.

Article IX was pushed through into law by liberal government officials (if you don't believe me, just look at the big advocates of it along with the ACLU). They did not think it through to the end (or even scarier...THEY DID!)

Like affirmative action, this ends up not serving us at all. It's trying to mandate equality and in the end makes us all robots without passion...simply conforming to commands. Worst of all, affirmative action and Article IX doesn't benefit the very people its made for! Affirmative action (another liberal law shoved down our throats) for example, only gives those people a mentality that they are victims, and therefore should be GIVEN things and SUPPORTED.

These laws only give people a "fish" (making them dependent), rather than teaching them to fish.

Education Bureaucrats
The solution is readily at hand, and the bureaucRATS will find it: All girls' athletic teams will have male cheerleaders.

Back Attcha
I never had the urge to proselytize nor did I ever talk someone into reenlisting - I figured if I set a good example and ran a decent section they would figure it out for themselves – same way with religion – go to mass – try to be decent to folks and if they are interested OK if not – not

CVN65 what is "moonbat" a term of endearment?

sardine101
Maybe I am too sensitive here, but please explain where I have lobbed insults at Kimberly. I may have called her a lib, but that is a fact, not an attack. In the past I have countered her arguments and pointed out where she has either been uninformed or disingenuous. I strive to maintain a high level of political discourse and have, to date, avoided insults and ad hominem attacks. I would appreciate an apology. Thanks.

Vic
To put it another way, Communism is simply socialism carried to its logical end.

Communism vs Socialism
The working theories of socialism and communism as currently practiced is that communism is socialism with no private property. The United States currently has a large element of socialism in its functioning. With the onset of Kelo we are beginning to move towards Communism.

CaballeroKid
Kimberloon is to thick in the gourd to realize that FDR used the IRS to AUDIT HIS political enemies as did Truman, LBJ, and Clintoon.

More rights have been lost under "liberal" leaders along with our hard-earned money.

BTW, Kimbat, care to debate the FACTS on my blog re: Socialized Medicine. I have the stats from Canuckistan for your perusal.

Bring it baby!

wiseone, a similar problem
"You and I obviously have widely differing understandins of "anarchy"."

Well, I think it's more: communist idealists have a misconceived notion that anarchy could work in a peaceful, cooperative manner. Again, this isn't my definition of anarchy with which we're working. I didn't come up with the "end-state of history" either.

"My understanding of anarchy essentially precludes the concept of community. Pure anarchy is literally "every man for himself"."

Actually, I think anarchy, as you put it, is good in a theoretical sense, but would not exist in the real world. Take the natural family. In an anarchical situation, I doubt that fathers and mothers would only be made so through rape and that they'd drop their kids. There is a sense of familial relations and responsibilities even without government intervention. Thus, anarchy will include relations of people with agreements, just no governmental authority to enforce them. Yes, anarchy is Hobbesian in a sense, but not to an extreme that prohibits any community whatsoever. Communists are just mistaken that this means, somehow, that community spirit can be employed for ALL people. As happyjake said, communism works on the small scale, which just means that anarchy can work on a small scale.

"When you talk about anarchy with a sense of community you lose me."

Well, I speak about anarchy as in there's no government, but people are still allowed to form relationships and communities. Your definition of anarchy precludes that, and is just as unusable as a theoretical standpoint as it is impossible to preclude community from an anarchical world. True anarchy, as in the sense that you use it, simply does not and cannot exist because of the fact that government is not what provides for the strength of personal relationships. So, my definition of anarchy simply means no government. Yours, obviously, means something more, but I don't think this 'more' is quite possible.

Perhaps you associate anarchy with people not getting together at all to make decisions. At which point you've left the realm of the actual and entered the realm of the theoretical.

"The spectrum is just a model anyway, and we should not make the mistake of subjugating reality to the models we use to explain it."

Which is why you cannot think of a theoretical anarchy lacking anything other than "each man for himself" relationships. That simply just does not exist. A real anarchy would be just no government, which is a very real event and should be considered. Thus, the communist end-state is something worth considering, and should be considered because there are people who think it possible.

"In the real world, as it has been practiced, communism has produced dictatorial totalitarian governments and oppressed societies with suppressed economies. In this respect communism is much closer to despotism and most forms of fascism (Hitler's Germany was an exception with respect to short-term production in the economy) than it could ever be to anarchy."

Yes, I agree and agreed to that. Except I define it as socialism. As happyjake said: "Communism is an economic theory and Socialism is a related political theory." Thus, socialism fits on a political spectrum whereas communism fits on an economic spectrum. That's why I define communism (total public ownership) either with totalitarianism (political system) or anarchy (political system). My point is that communism isn't communism the political system, but it is either totalitarian or anarchical.

"The USSR could hardly be described as anything near anarchy. Ditto Cuba. Ditto China. Ditto Venezuela."

Never said it could. That was just the goal, and the systems employed by the communist ideologues were supposed to get them to non-government. Too bad it doesn't work. Or, wait, I'm glad it doesn't work. I like private property.

Kimberly
In reference to your 8:39 AM comments:

Are you seriously trying to infer that this article is just a distraction to the Iraq War and low opinion polls for the President???

You said a lot in a few sentences without any backing whatsoever.

"As for butting into the private lives of American people - there has been no more pernicious invasion than at the hand of a rightwing zealotry..." And your basis for that concoction comes from where?

"Big government is acceptable when it pokes into the lives of 'sinners' ...but not so when cheerleaders are "forced" to cheer for school teams that also include girls."

Big, socialist government is unacceptable, period. Prager's point is using the cheerleaders to illustrate this! Right wing, left wing, whatever...this is government run amock! Now look where the issue stems from (Article IX)...do you dare tell us that that Article IX is a typical conservative law put into play??? The whole thing wreaks of affirmative action liberalism!

Prager's simplification re: universities
In the course of his discussion of the Duke case, Prager quoted the title of several books published by Duke University Press. The point--as is common with many commentators who do not bother actually to read the academic discourse they criticize--was to mock the supposed unintelligibility and blinkered leftism of these books. I would have thought it was intellectually dishonesty to critique books about which you know NOTHING---the fact that you don't understand their titles hardly means that the books necessarily are worthless. Perhaps you should make the slightest attempt to understand material before you hold it up to ridicule. But, of course, that would require a more intimate knowledge of a target which works best when caricatured and distorted.

aurorawatcher
If God had wanted people to worship him out of coersion, force of law, or promise of reward, He would have founded Islam. (And to anyone who is wondering, no, I don't believe that Muslims worship the God I worship, despite their protests to the contrary.)

Incidentally Catholics ARE Christians in every sense of the word, just as are Orthodox and Protestant Christians.

Someone (I don't remember who) mentioned that Catholics don't proselytize. That's not entirely accurate. We simply don't go door to door. Those who do it tend to do it more informally than, say, Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons. We talk to our friends about it. Those who choose to listen can make up their own minds whether to convert.

Kath
Come on they have been that way for years - the lady that ran the cheer leading squad used to ask my daughter to try out all the time - she didn't want to do it because she thought that the cheer leaders were there for the wrong reasons - besides she was popualr enough - but the uniforms are not skimpy nor are they skanky - they are what cheer leaders have been wearing for years - and how about when the college cheer leaders hold those girls up by the fourth point of contact !!!

Prager's simplications re: universities
In the course of his discussion of the Duke case, Prager quoted the title of several books published by Duke University Press. The point--as is common with many commentators who do not bother actually to read the academic discourse they criticize--was to mock the supposed unintelligibility and blinkered leftism of these books. I would have thought it was intellectually dishonesty to critique books about which you know NOTHING---the fact that you don't understand their titles hardly means that the books necessarily are worthless. Perhaps you should make the slightest attempt to understand material before you hold it up to ridicule. But, of course, that would require a more intimate knowledge of a target which works best when caricatured and distorted.

Changing beliefs implies coersion?
NONSENSE!!!!!

I attend a multi-ethnic church, so many of the Christians I worship with were raised in other cultures with other religious beliefs.

As the church historian, I am in the midst of a project to interview our members about their Christian history. Some of them made their maiden voyage from the house to the church nursery, but the majority of the church membership started life in another culture and another religion. I've interviewed about 45 people and not one of them has told a tale of being coersed or tortured to change their beliefs from their childhood religion to Christianity. They held their childhood beliefs until they heard compelling reasons to accept Christ as Savior. One women, Chendo, is from Cambodia and she tells some lovely tales (evidenced by scars and a missing pinky finger) about being tortured and coersed in an attempt to force her to give up her Christianity for atheism, but Christianity was something she willingly embraced when she heard it as a teenager and she was willing to die to remain a Christian.

This story is not terribly different from my own story (except living in America nobody was going to kill me for my conversion). I wasn't raised to be a Christian; my mom scoffed at such things. I heard about Christianity in a way that made it difficult to scoff and I eventually accepted Christ as my personal savior. Nobody coersed me. They talked to me about it and sometimes I wished they'd shut up, but I didn't have to listen. I had other friends I could have hung out with, but the positivity of my Christian friends drew me to them and being with them meant I was going to hear about Jesus.

My husband also converted from Catholicism to being a born-again Christian. Again, nobody forced him. He met people he liked to hang out with and, as those people were Christians, he learned about their beliefs because true Christians cannot help but tell about what they believe (it's a commandment from God). Eventually, he accepted Christ as his personal savior.

Nothing in the Scriptures compels Christians to FORCE anyone to believe as we do. We are told to "go and tell" (paraphrasing the Great Commission), but God isn't interested in followers in name only who worship Him out of fear of coersion, force of law or promise of a reward. If He wanted that, He would have created Adam and Eve as automatons and we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. When Christians follow the Bible, we use the Bible to CONVINCE, not to coerse. THere is a major difference. Coersion is forcing by means of torture, fear, gun-point or law. Christians don't attempt to do that. Convincing is simply appealing to your intellect and showing you evidences that allow you to change your mind IF YOU SO CHOOSE. Big difference!

Pamela - right on!
Make cheerleading voluntary, not mandatory.

This whole thing is ridiculous. Someone else posted that most cheerleaders today are like wiggly, giggly Paris Hiltons. That is sad but true.

My daughters would have never tried out for cheerleader because their uniforms are immodest and skanky. I don't know how schools let them wear those things with exposed midriffs.

It's a shame that everything has to be sexualized these days. It sends the wrong message.

From each... to each...
The biggest problem of the Marxist philosophy of "from each according to his talents, to each according to his needs" is that it ignores incentive. Economies don't (and never have) flourish based solely on the satisfaction of needs, or even wants. People work because they have an incentive. Some like what they do, others like what they are paid, still others like the authority, responsibility, recognition, or prestige that comes with a certain position. Doctors do what they do, mostly, to heal people. But they also do it because good doctors get paid extremely well. Not paying a doctor for his skills ignores the enormous resources a person must expend in time, talent, and treasure to become a Doctor. Med School isn't Rocks for Jocks. If Doctors weren't paid extremely well, they would not have the incentive to sit through four-to-eight rigorous years of Medical School, plus another eight years as an intern, never mind all the certifications and continuing education necessary to keep their skills sharp. Besides that the costs of being a doctor in time and money once you get there make it difficult for some to enjoy their high salaries as it is. If you simply paid them what was required for them to survive and do their job, no one would go through med school.

The same can be said for many highly-paid professions. People won't take them unless there is an incentive that outweighs the unpleasantness that comes along with it. How many of you have ever heard of a CEO that got his position by sitting like a lump in his office 8 hours a day, just doing enough to get by? That's what you get with the "From each... To each..." philosophy.

Bring Out The Fork Lift
Oh by the way it has long been a rule in Texas - decided by the collective school sport association that you cannot exclude a person from the cheer leading squad because they are too fat - you should see some of those hiefers they have to put them on the bus with a fork lift - no such rule in the colleges and a lot of them go on to college thinking that they will be on the squad there only to be slam dunked

drewrush
You and I obviously have widely differing understandins of "anarchy".

My understanding of anarchy essentially precludes the concept of community. Pure anarchy is literally "every man for himself".

When you talk about anarchy with a sense of community you lose me.

The spectrum is just a model anyway, and we should not make the mistake of subjugating reality to the models we use to explain it.

In the real world, as it has been practiced, communism has produced dictatorial totalitarian governments and oppressed societies with suppressed economies. In this respect communism is much closer to despotism and most forms of fascism (Hitler's Germany was an exception with respect to short-term production in the economy) than it could ever be to anarchy.

The USSR could hardly be described as anything near anarchy. Ditto Cuba. Ditto China. Ditto Venezuela.

I WANT my M-Town-Hall
JP Writes:
"The Liberals ultimate goal is to close down sites like Townhall via the Fairness Doctrine and McCain/Feingold."

You can't get much more Liberal than me, and I LIKE this site! Who wants to post where everybody agrees with you??

Communism v. Socialism
The main difference, as I understand it, between the two is that Communism is an economic theory and Socialism is a related political theory.

In pure Communism all are equals and the "from each, to each" tenet is taken absolutely litterally. Money and station would be irrelevant in a purely Communist society because everything would be distributed fairly (by the needs of the person getting the ration.) For example, everyone would get their requisite portion of food, because most people need roughly the same amount (though the particularly small need less and the particularly large or active need more). Medicine and medical care would be distributed only as needed (everyone wouldn't get the same number of aspirins, people would only get them if they had a headache). I'm oversimplifying it some, but that's the general principle. In absolutely pure Communism law, leadership, and the like aren't considered and the People (capital P) own everything collectively and equally. Pure Communism cannot exist in practice any more than pure Capitalism can.

Socialism is a form of government that borrows communist principles. In Socialism, the distinction is that the Government, as opposed to the People, owns everything and a government is required to administer the "publically" owned property as representatives of the people. Private ownership of capital goods and property is frowned upon at best, and forbidden at worst. The concept of total equality is lessened in a Socialist society because there has to be a government. Thus "some pigs are more equal than others." In the Soviet Union, specifically, the famous bread-lines only involved the common peasantry. The Communist Party elite (being the "more equal" pigs) had their own shops to visit and their own provisions to acquire while avoiding the lines. (You would never see Leonid Brezhnev standing in line for bread.)

Socialism and communism are related but not necessarily mutually dependent. Most European governments (especially France and Germany) use a watered down form of Socialist government without the need for communal ownership. While their governments may not own all methods of production, they do regulate stiffly and exercise much greater control over businesses than is the case here. (Hence the stagnent economy in Europe.) Communism can also be practiced in the absence of a Socialist government. The Hippies tended toward a communal lifestyle with the basic Communist ideals. There are also small communities in many countries that practice small-scale Communism within a larger political and economic context.

precision of law
Flaming Liberal has a point; isn't it also possible that law has become more precise and focussed, so that as much as it penetrates more deeply into life it also requires greater detail: more law.

To all
CVN65 Kimmy loves it when you call her all those names - eats it up with a spoon - probably why she posts to get a rise and she damn sure does - you guys on those carriers ever run into any IEDs ????

Dewrush - they sure did but it was all about money ain't it always????

Mountain Rose - you lost me lady - they are supposed to cheer on the team not get dates with the players - virile football player indeed - sure that is their intent but not the schools

Vigilante - them too but come on is it worth discussing???? Big deal - and if they don't like it don't cheer - like I said to Mountain Rose the intent is to cheer on the school team not make out with the football players ala Friday Night Lights




Laws Aren't from Left OR Right

People sure have alot to say about Dennis' article, but I ddin't find anyone bringing up this:

Dennis Writes:
"But just as taxes increase the further left one moves, so, too, the number of laws passed increases."

I don't think that this is fair to us lefties. There is an awful lot of law that has come into being just because society and technology have grown more complex. When everybody walked or rode a horse, nobody had to have a license, right? (I never heard of a license to drive a wagon, even.) This was observed to be insufficient when larger numbers of people started driving cars, and air travel called for even more law. And that's ALOT of law!

Doesn't it seem like this increasing complexity is the source of the majority of the extra weight added to our law books since colonial times?

response to Mountain Rose
Mountain Rose: Phylo- I didn't say Dennis wasn't biased.

Phylo: I know. Dennis does however. And that's the problem. He has fooled himself into believing that he is objective.

I always laugh when he says that he gets angry when people lie to themselves. A classic case of projection. The irony is just too rich.

Phylo out.

Mountain Rose
Stating that the left are all atheists is not very nice. Why would you make such an assertion? Do you have proof of this? Any liberals who post on this site are vilified for one reason or another. It's enough to make a person plotz. Your apology is accepted.

OT-"The purpose of government is to protect the weak from the powerful", from the Code of Hammurabi, one of the worlds most ancient code of laws extant.

role models
Most top notch cheerleader teams are now mixed male/female which is required to suppor their complicated and strength required programs such as pyramid type formations and cheerleader tosses. The cheerleaders go where the action and money raising sports activities present themselves and are encouraged to do so by the schools sponsoring the events. These programs - such as football and men's basketball are the only programs that usually support themselves and in addition bring in the finances to support all the other athletic endeavors of the school both male and female. Attempting to support extensive sports programs in many of the smaller schools while trying to comply with government mandates has totally bankrupted some athletic programs.

a good slogan
"From each according to his talents, to each according to his needs." I always thought this slogan was pretty harmless. The problem is that it is the state that decides, in socialist or communist practice, what "talents" are to be used and what "needs" are to be satisfied.

Here here


Need I point out the entire Islamic world? Extremely religious societies, who control as much as possible with moral police. There are plenty of people in this wonderful country like myself who are either atheists or agnostics, yet believe in right and wrong and lead virtuous lives. A good percentage of libertarians are non-religious, and we sure as hell want as few laws and regulations as possible. Religion does not have a monopoly on virtue Denis. The way you preach only serves to alienate people and make you look as bad as the Islamists in some ways.
*******************************************

Very true. A more religious nation could be better or worse. I am frankly sick of both sides trying to take my rights. No matter what party is in office, each one tries to tell me what to do. I don't want a Democratic Party beholden to the wacky left communist wannabees, and I don't want a Republican Party controlled by far right religious nuts. Neither represents me.

happyjake
I recognize most of what you said is true (as opposed to agreeing that it's true... that would be like agreeing to the fact that 2+2=4), but I have a question nonetheless:

You seem to indicate that socialism is not totalitarian communism, but rather a political system that was necessary for totalitarian communism to succeed. How would you define socialism, then?

I would say that totalitarian communism is a chimera, and what exists, in reality, is socialism of different degrees, the harshest degree being that which occurred in the Soviet Union.

"Communist thought: From each according to his talents, to each according to his needs."

Can we really doubt that socialism does not use this thought process? This is why I think the first step in redistribution, as presented by liberals, is just the foundation for the creation of an extreme totalitarian socialist state, and, further, why it must be stopped.

Caballero
It may have been outlawed and I apologize if I offended any Mormons. But do you deny that polygamy still exists in some sectors? I knew it was King James version, but you know how much Catholics love their saints. I was on a roll.

sardine
he may have thrown down the gauntlet, but the feminists ate it up.

The real problem with Title IX
is not that it attempts to open doors of opportunity for female athletes. I would avow that this, in and of itself, is a good thing. It's the METHOD that's the problem. It attempts to impose political correctness on the Free Market. To asset that the same budget should be portioned out to both girls' and boys' sports completely ignores the Free Market Truth that boys' sports do produce more revenue for the school and therefore are more cost-effective. It makes sense to put more money into programs that are more financially successful. But the PC Police are interested in what SHOULD BE (or what they think should be), not in what IS.

However, on the subject of Cheerleaders:
As a high school and college students, I was a girl-nerd (and I remain a proud nerd) and I had the typical girl-nerd's attitude toward cheerleaders: disdain. I saw them as nothing more than a bunch of jiggly, giggly Paris Hiltons. I was way too harsh and narrow-minded in my judgment.

Like most teachers, I have been educated by my students. I've read many persuasive student essays arguing that cheerleading is a sport and that for quite a few cheerleaders, the activity is about jumps and flips and dances and pyramid formations rather than about the opportunity to parade before a bunch of hunks in very little clothing. These cheerleaders cheer because they LIKE it; they're excited about the sport and about the sport they cheer for. Many of them would welcome the chance to "cheer for other girls" (whom they would regard as fellow female athletes, not as lesbian sex objects) as they would welcome ANY chance to cheer, if it were made voluntary rather than mandatory. I have a problem if there's COERCION involved. But why not let the cheerleaders cheer if they want to?

Some cheerleading squads include males. When the co-ed cheerleading teams cheer on the male football team, are the guys on the team somehow "gay" or otherwise suspect because they're "cheering for other guys"? Are they doing it because someone is forcing them to, or because they want to be there?

Prager's actual article is less about gender than about the problems that occur when Leftists attempt to enforce "politically correct" attitudes and behavior. It's about the dangers of coercion.

So make cheerleaders' participation at girls' sports events voluntary, not mandatory. Problem solved.

Title IX
has been stretched way too far beyond its intention (thanks to the attorneys and screaming liberals) ...at this rate, we will soon be reading that the NBA is a racist organization because it is predominantly black.

sardine- things don't change
sardine101 writes: Tuesday, January, 30, 2007 12:06 PM
"Mountain Rose
The cheer leaders are supposed to be cheering the team on to win not trying to get laid - the sex of the team should not be relevant"
***************************************

It has been a long time since I have been in High School, but it seems to me that the reason that girls wanted to be cheerleaders was so they could date the football players.

Have you seen the way they are costumed? It is to be alluring; especially nowdays. If you think otherwise than it is you who is puritanical, not me.

The visual image of beautiful girls cheering on handsome virile young men is too much for the social engineers to bear.

So they want to make sports gender neutral, because their painful highschool memories of not being "in-with-the-in-crowd" are too much to bear.

How better can they get even with those pretty, elite cheerleaders than by making them cheer for the little gals in comfortable shoes?


Drewrush
Communism, as used in the Soviet Union, was government enforced communal living and provisions. There were a number of collective farms and factories in the Soviet Union, and the entire country operated under the most basic tenet of Communist thought: From each according to his talents, to each according to his needs. Pure Communism can only work in a very small environment, and only then if everyone gets along (which rarely happens.) As a governmental economic philosophy, it results in an evil, totalitarian regime where the philosophy is forced down everyone's throats because it must be accepted by everyone in the society for it to work. Any ambition toward leadership or a bigger piece of the pie must be crushed lest it disrupt the balance and the productivity of the commune. It was combined with Socialism in the Soviet Union (et al.) because the Soviets needed a governmental system to impose Communist ideals. It's worth noting that the idea of total equality was tried in the Soviet (and other communist) militaries with degrees of failure ranging from total to abyssmal. They had attempted to do away with rank and authority, thus wrecking the idea of the chain of command and unit cohesion. They abandoned that idea before WWII.

There's a reason the Soviet Union failed, and the US prospered: Communism as an economic theory cannot work large scale.

Betty
Please think through your comments before posting them: "Mormons are in violation of traditional one man-one woman marriage"

Mormons gave up polygamy as it was being legislated over a hundred years ago. Stop trying to throw us under the bus with those malicious comments.

Secondly it wasn't the "St. James" bible version, rather the "King James" version.


wiseone, slavery
"Are you suggesting... that we should re-institute slavery so we can impose the left's version of gender equality on a bunch of high school kids?"

Yes, I was suggesting that, but in a sarcastic way. That was the point/joke of my post. The left wants to coerce people into joining in their systematic erosion of personal choice.

In my mind I imagined a slave-driver saying "you must be more enthusiastic." Or, if anyone watches South Park, the episode with the "Death Camp of Tolerance," where everyone was coerced at the point of a gun into making spaghetti pictures of people of all colors getting along together. I'd say my post was most closely aligned with the message given in that episode: it's insane to promote tolerance, or any other value, at the end of a gun, or, to a lesser degree, through government coercion.


Christian Totalitarianism
I am a conservative christian (I was saved in 1979, when I was 14) who has increasingly noticed this impulse within Christianity. And it is just as disturbing as the Left's attempt to redefine marriage.

TK_libertarian is right. Christians have no problem allowing freedom when it comes to christian behavior, but then we have no problem attempting to use the State to restrict immoral behavior. We wish to outlaw sodomy between consenting adults because it is immoral. We wish to have the state fine radio or TV stations for immoral speach or images. I have heard christians talk about having laws that enforce christian ethics in businesses. While I think it would be wonderful if I could turn on any radio or TV station and get nothing that disturbed my sensibilities, that would not be in line with the concept of liberty. And not in line with the character of God. He has chosen to allow humanity to make its choices.

I for one, reject the idea of turning the U.S. into some sort of Christian State. I will share the good news of Jesus and be content to be a part of His Assembly.

"Not by might, but by my Spirit, says the LORD."

sardine101
I didn't say that I am ignoring Kimberly; I said that I am trying very hard to do so. I was merely apologizing to Gunny G for responding to her despite my calls to not do so!
Vic-I knew it. You can always tell a Navy man, but you can't tell him much! Shipmate, today a Med cruise means 4-6 months in the Gulf with only pierside stops in Gerbil Alley. My best to you and your family.
Vespanat- I believe others are referring to the British law forbidding anyone to criticize another's religion (enacted to protect the Muslims).

Phylo- I didn't say Dennis wasn't biased
I merely stated that he does not claim to be impartial when he has a definate opinion.

Anyone who has a brain in their head has an opinion.

But the fairness on Dennis' show come through the way he gives alot of time to those with whom he diasgrees.

It does not mean he stops thinking and stops having opinions.

more on the left
This is still a tendentious argument.

In the 19th century communists were associated with anarchists as both were fighting for the liberation of the working class from the constraints of capitalism. By the early 20th century communists such as Rosa Luxemburg were insisting (against the direction of most German socialists) on socialism as revolutionary rather than evolutionary and as liberating rather than a new form of oppression.

The fact that history turned communism on its head does not make Rosa Luxemburg a right-winger. Unless we can change the historical meaning of words at will.

Examples
Examples of the Left-Wing bias in the Main Stream Media (MSM):

1. After the Jayson Blair scandal, where Blair (a black reporter for the New York Times) was caught falsifying stories and filing fraudulent travel vouchers his managing editor (whose name escapes me) was quoted as saying something to the effect of: We at the New York Times value accuracy in reporting "and, more importantly, diversity." (His exact words are in quotes)

2. In the late 1990s, Then CNN Anchor Peter Arnett produced and aired a story accusing the US Military of using Sarin gas against deserters in Vietnam. The charges were absolutely false and Arnett was fired from CNN only after the public uproar about the falsified story.

3. Arnett later (late 2002), and while working for NBC, had an exclusive interview with Saddam Hussein in which the Iraqi dictator used the oportunity for propaganda purposes.

4. "Memogate" and its aftermath. (A blatant attempt by Dan Rather and Mary Mapes to affect a presidential election with a fraudulent story.)

5. A report aired on CNN in 2002 showing civilian Iraqi pilots intentionally violating the no-fly zone to challenge the American imposed No Fly Zone.

6. USA Today's publication of the names and photos of each of the 2,000 dead soldiers on a story announcing that casualties in Iraq had reached that milestone number.

7. The extremely heavy coverage of the sexual missteps of Catholic Priests, anti-Gay-Privileges ministers and Republican Representatives as compared with the very light coverage of sexual misconduct in teachers and Democrats (Bill Clinton is a separate case here.) (Teachers are often reported locally while priests are reported nationally)

8. The admittance during a convention of reporters that CNN reporters consider themselves "Citizens of the World" and responsible for ensuring a sufficient amount of anti-American coverage in the media.

9. The praise put on churches that appoint openly, actively gay clergy compared with the venom against churches that still recognize the biblical prohibition against homosexual behavior.

10. The coverage of the 2000 and 2004 elections both had the Democrats declared the winners before the polls closed. In 2000, Gore was declared the winner in Florida before the (heavily Republican) panhandle counties' polls had closed. In 2004, exit poll results showing Kerry dramatically ahead were reported as being 100% accurate when, in fact, nothing could have been further from the truth. (It's worth noting here that after dozens of recounts in 2000 done by the media, still no one could get a reasonable data set that had Al Gore winning Florida. The best they could do was to start throwing out good Bush votes and including everything where Gore's name COULD have been punched.)

If you read the editorial pages of any major newspaper (The Washington Post, The New York Times, the LA Times) you will almost invariably see a left-wing bent in the opinion pieces. Occasionally (as with Charles Krauthammer in the Washington Post) the paper will subscribe to a token conservative to show "balance."

Additionally, our own "state-run" media outlets National Public Radio (NPR) and the Public Broadcasting System (PBS) are unabashedly leftist and openly support Democrat candidates in elections. Furthermore, If you believe poll numbers, a number of polls have been done to show that reporters vote Democrat on a near 4-1 ratio with Republicans.

This is all examples I can find off the top of my head. If I took the time to dig deeper, I could find more.

This is TOTALITARIANISM / NOT DEMOCRACY!
Will anyone in the power structure confront this insanity?

Critical Bill
Critical Bill writes: Tuesday, January, 30, 2007 6:43 AM
"Prager's arrogance is beyond belief...[He (Prager)] makes no bones about telling people how his morality is right and theirs is wrong.."

And we have never seen that from the liberal left, right? What would you say about California legislation into school curriculum endoctrinating our children that homosexuality is just fine and dandy and if you don't accept it then you're a homophobe or bigot?

Where do you see a conservative Christian, for example, trying to legislate school prayer into California?

Would you like more examples?

wiseone, a problem w/your definitions
"Your notion that communism could exist in a society that has less government than anarchy makes no sense as it mis-defines anarchy. By definition anarchy must be at the extreme of such a spectrum."

I agree, it must be at the extreme end of such a spectrum. I even assumed the same.

The whole communist philosophy necessarily includes the "end state" of history wherein there is no necessity for government because all is held in common. It is community-based anarchy, also known as the communist utopia. This is one of the essential aspects of the idealist communist doctrine. The reason communism is so much better is that it does not require government when it is fully realized.

This is why I discerned between communism qua totalitarianism, which is really socialism, and communism qua end-state of history. You are, in fact, mis-defining communism AS totalitarianism wherein the state necessarily has control over peoples' lives. That is why I said it must either be put on the extreme left, as socialist totalitarianism, or on the extreme right, as a community-based, altruistic anarchy. If it is the former, then the end-state has yet to be reached and it is not communism, but socialism. If the latter, there is no governmental control. Thus, I was not saying that it had less governmental control as anarchy, but no control.

I actually don't know where you got "less govt control than anarchy bit" as these are my two statements pertaining to same:

"...a community-oriented anarchy will prevail and everyone will get along nicey-nice."

and

"it should be on the far right with NO GOVERNMENT CONTROL, but with everyone somehow working and sharing together like hippies on a kibbutz."
(emphasis added)

Thus, I reiterate: communism as you define it is really socialism, a totalitarian state with a planned economic system. True communism is a community-based anarchy with no governmental control, but everyone getting along somehow anyway.

Betty- I am certain that Dennis
is not Puritanical and does like Cheerleaders.

Perhaps you would be interested to read his upcoming book on male sexuality.

I am telling you the truth about the story about transplanting uteruses- I think it is absurd as well, but nevertheless it is on its way. I hope you will continue to think it is absurd when it becomes Standard Operating procedure, just like sex change.

But if you are the good Leftist that I suspect you are, you will probably jump on the bandwagon and drink the Koolaid with the rest of the fools.

Thirty years ago we thought it was absurd that anyone would advocate mixed-sex bathrooms, but today there are college campuses where ALL of the bathrooms in all of the dorms are co-ed.

I worked at a corporation that had Leftist tendancies, and they tried to force co-ed bathrooms on us. Fortunately all the women rebelled and made a big stink until the bathrooms got put back to normal.

Just because you are naive about the absurdity of the Leftist agenda does not make it true.

When the new Orwellian world rears its ugly head, I hope you remember this conversation. If we are still blogging, then I hope you have the graciousness to appologize.

Christians
Peter-of course Catholics believe in Jesus. But we are not a proselytizing religion. Of course this doesn't mean that missionaries aren't trying to convert the savages (like the conquistadores only with less torture and blood). Jerry Falwell and the delusional Pat Robertson do not speak for me or anyone I know. Mormons are in violation of traditional one man-one woman marriage. And don't even mention snakehandlers or teetotaling sects. Saints preserve us.

nazism
It is true that historians have frequently associated nazism with the right. But that is a historical myth created by the left themselves. If we view the term "right" by the traditional American perspective then Nazism is clearly left. Hitler despised all religion and banned the Bible from all prison and death camps. Hitler executed Orthodox Jews, Christians and many Catholics. He only allowed prayer within the army because he did not want to lose their support and offend the masses of Germans who were Christian.

Hitler was an extreme atheist which is a characteristic of the left. He further despised individual thought and the concept of democratic ideas. Hitler frequently called the democracies weak and supported totalitarian government. In many ways Hitler was similar to Stalin and the leftist totalitarian state of the Soviet Union. Recent history sees totalitarian states at war in the middle east. Not too long ago the totalitarian states of Iraq and Iran were at war.

Left leaning governments are governments that oppose individual liberty and support concentrated power. This was evident in both the Nazi and Communist governments in the 20th century. It is also where the American left is headed for today.

Sardine
We have time to LEGISLATE cheerleading? Your gun is aimed at the wrong target.

Vespanat
I respectfully disagree on your comment that conservative Christians are the ones imposing their views. It is the secular lefts can't get the VOTE to harness the power of the state to their system of beliefs, they circumvent the people's representatives, and appeal to the judicial branch to do it (activist judges). They apparently believe they can change the world for what they consider the better by using the power of the state to enforce their beliefs on others.

Case and point: most conservatives today, even Christians, would leave (for example) homosexuality out of the political process -- it's when those on the Left demand that the state force all of us to behave in conformity with the vision of the Left, that conservatives and Christians see a need to oppose their political efforts.

The Left presents its argument with us as their side being opposed to our side misusing the state to govern people's lives, minds, and hearts. But the Left is daily engaged in using the state to govern lives, minds, and hearts, when it insists that communities may not have an opinion different from the Left's on abortion, euthanasia, gay "marriage" or a host of other issues. The Left is happy to have the state ordering people's beliefs around. Their true quarrel is with the agenda, not the use of the state to enforce it.

Mountain Rose
Please, Dennis spends his entire life trying to find examples of where the left (or liberals) are wrong, and examples of how the right (or conservatives) are right.

Which is fine, but no one can say that this is the kind of behavior that a person who is truly fair to both sides exhibits.

I don't mind that he's partisan. I DO mind that he pretends not to be so he can convince gullible people like you that his opinons aren't tainted with the stain of bias.

Phylo out.

Is This A Big Deal?
We have a war in Iraq that is eating us alive - no health care for millions of kid - big deficit - the constitution is being eroded and we have time to complain about cheer leading??

vespanat- about the MSM
Also can some give me the definition of this "liberal MSM" I keep hearing about and some examples of their bias please? Is this the same "MSM" that allowed GWB to embark on his Iraq Fiasco unchallenged???
********************************

Right after the United States was attacked on our own soil, a wave of patriotism swept the country.

The Left, in a fit of good taste kept quiet for some time, although many of them were secretly happy to find somebody hated us enough to attack.

After all, that would save them some of the work of deconstructing our culture.

But the 2002 elections revealed that the American People as a whole did not trust the Left to run the country in times of trouble.

Enter the MSM, who had been sitting on their left hands for a time.

They were beside themselves that they had lost power and the country was headed back to the right. They were watching a half-century of hard work shoving America traditional culture off the map!

Whats a committed Leftie to do?

So they have made up for lost time. They started on a campaign to censor any good news coming out of Iraq, and to take any negative story and blow it out of proportion.

Now, before 9-11, this was Standard Operating Procedure for the MSM, but right after 9-11, there was some hope that the media had been sufficiently shaken that they actually got in touch with their inner patriot.

But alas, obsessive activism is not to be surpressed for long, and it soon reared it's ugly head, with the encouragement and financing of George Soros behind it.

There is a lot of information that only gets out through talk radio and internet outlets, because the majority of media outlets are committed to a particular agenda.

And now they want to silence us with their Orwellian "Fairness Doctrine."

It is disheartening to see the willing participation of the "free" media in censorship of traditional values.

I am sure you know these things already, but this is my opinion about it.

Betty
if a Catholic doesn't think she is a Christian, then I think she is very confused.

CVN65
How are you guys ignoring Kimmy ? You post her name and reply every time she pull your collective chains - she is eating it up with a spoon

Catattack
catattack writes: Tuesday, January, 30, 2007 6:00 AM
"shocked but not surprised
I'm shocked that the federal education officials didn't demand an equal number of boys to be cheerleaders as girl cheerleaders. The injustice!"

You bring up a very good point...they missed that part of "equality" by not demanding the same amout of m/f cheerleaders! Title IX, the civil rights law, is a bunch of garb. It is equality gone awry and you cannot legislate that! It's dehumanizing and demoralizing. Title IX has gone WAY beyond the original intentions it was created for.

Progressives were high school "outies"
Never fails to amaze me how so much of the political correctness that is forced upon young peiople these days smacks of the idea of "payback" for adolescent slights. This is a prime example - making cheerleaders cheer for the girls teams. Clearly, some of those forcing these policies either (a) never made the cheerleading squad or (b) never got to date a cheerleader. The same goes in the colleges - look at all of the almost puritanical fury employed in harrassing and punishing fraternities and sororities for activities that, at worst, exhibit bad taste and immaturity, but many times represent an exercise of First Amendment rights that the left wingers don't want to extend to any not sharing their narrow world view. Just goes to show that the lefties are still frustrated over adolescent rejection - they just never grew up.

Cheerleading
Another tempest in a teapot. Bush was a cheerleader in college, does anyone here think he is a girly-man? I didn't think so. If the religious-right wants to influence legislation that impacts everyone in a diverse society maybe it's time that their churches start paying taxes. Think of the revenue that would generate! You can be a cheerleader if you want or not. No penalty there. You can murder someone or not. Big penalty there. If the sanctimonious and puritanical Mr. Prager has problems with cheerleading he needs a hobby.
XXXOOOXXX
As for tranplanting a uterus into males for the purpose of childbirth-that is the most ludicrous statement of the day so far.
BTW I am the product of 16 years of Catholic education. The bible played a very small role in religious indoctrination; after all, the Pope is infallible. So Rome is the final authority. Remember "Upon this rock I shall build my church"? If I had to swear on a bible, it would have to be the Douay version not the St. James version. That one came about because Henry VIII wanted a (gasp) divorce and the church wouldn't grant him one. Beheading was more its style. Therefore, when anyone says Judeo-Christian in a discussion, I do not feel it applies to us Catlicks.

Dewrush
Riggs threw down the gaunlet not King - it was all about money anyway - that was his ultimate aim

TK_libertarian
Libertarian, what Prager was pointing out (from your original comment) is that if society remains religious, lesser laws on behavior are needed. Why? Because the people will govern themselves according to religious principles.

I respectfully beg to differ with your comparison to Islam. Your example is not consistent with what Prager is saying, because Sharia (Islamic Law) is religious laws ENFORCED in society. They are written into politics because Muhammed, their prophet, was a religous AMD secular leader...therefore there is no distinction between church and state.

Moreso, I would argue that the Islamic example you give, is more the example of "Liberalism" run amock...once again, referring back to Prager, "the further left one goes on the political spectrum, the greater the advocacy of more state control of people's lives." Sharia has a tight control on people's lives and this is what today's liberals aim for (ironically). I agree with Prager.

Mountain Rose
The cheer leaders are supposed to be cheering the team on to win not trying to get laid - the sex of the team should not be relevant

vespanat - something we agree on
"I lived in the US for 6 years and only found television reporting to be utterly vacuous."
*************************************

AMEN!

Phylo hates Prager
Phylo, when Dennis has an agenda, he admits it.

Otherwise, he says "I do not have a dog in this fight, or is it a pony in this race?..."

But he does have his opinions, and states them.

It is an opinion show, and most people listen because they want to hear his opinions.

If I don't like someone's opinions, I stop listening. For example, I have stopped listening to Jay Leno anymore because he has made a serious left turn.

Dennis usually gives more time to people who disagree with him, and puts them on the air first. And he is always respectful to them.

Sometimes painfully so.

If he hangs up on someone, it is either when they are particularly rude, or if they are right up to a station break. If you were to call and voice your opinion courteously, Dennis would be courteous to you.

There is no other talk show host I can say this about.

Mountain Rose
I'm sorry to be rude but you are talking absolute sh*te, to use a British vernacular, the BBC, which is in state hands, is a comparatively small part of UK broadcasting.

I hardly think the current UK government could be described as left wing. Sadly in this country politics has become very homogenised, one reason I love reading this website, you yanks make politics interesting!! However if I were to utilise your logic, am I to assume that when Thatcher was in power then the BBC was right wing??

All this being so you still haven't explained to me how my free speech has been curtailed.

Also can some give me the definition of this "liberal MSM" I keep hearing about and some examples of their bias please? Is this the same "MSM" that allowed GWB to embark on his Iraq Fiasco unchallenged???

I lived in the US for 6 years and only found television reporting to be utterly vacuous.