Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Tuesday, November 14, 2006
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
The smugness of the war's opponents
by Dennis Prager
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


In this week's New York Times Book Review, a historian reviewing a major new work of 20th-century history, Oxford and Harvard Professor Niall Ferguson's "The War of the World," notes that "Ferguson argues that the Western powers should have gone to war in 1938, which would most likely have avoided much of the horror of World War II . . . . "

Imagine that. The New York Times publishes a favorable book review of a book arguing that a pre-emptive war in 1938 would have saved tens of millions of lives aside from preventing the Holocaust, "without parallel . . . the most wicked act in all history."

You have to wonder if the Times' editors and all their allies on the Left, who have spent the last four years mocking the very notion of pre-emptive war, read this review.

Whatever incapacity for self-doubt George W. Bush's critics charge him with, it has been more than matched by his political enemies. They are as certain as human beings can be that the invasion of Iraq was wrong from the outset because no nation should ever engage in a pre-emptive war, since such wars, they contend, are inherently immoral, not to mention illegal.

They know that Saddam never had weapons of mass destruction, and they know that even if he were working on acquiring such weapons, he would never have used them or shared them with Islamic terrorists. They know this despite these facts:

Virtually every intelligence service believed that Saddam either had or was working on attaining WMD.

Saddam Hussein had already used biological weapons against his own people.

Saddam refused to allow UN inspectors unfettered access to Iraq, even when he had every reason to believe that America would attack him.

Saddam gave $25,000 to the families of Palestinian terrorists who blew up Israelis.

Saddam had already invaded two countries, attempting to eliminate one from the map (Kuwait) and killing a million in the other (Iran).

President Bush had very good reason to believe then, and we have very good reason to believe now, that Saddam was indeed seeking uranium from the African country of Niger.

Given these facts, George W. Bush believed that a pre-emptive strike was the moral thing to do, just as any moral person now understands it would have been moral to do against Hitler's Germany in 1938.

Given the same facts, his critics were/are at least as certain that such a war has been wrong strategically and morally.

They now argue that obviously they are right.

But it is not so obvious. It is overwhelmingly likely that even if we had found WMD in Iraq, The New York Times, Michael Moore and nearly all college professors would have still opposed the invasion. After all, they would have argued, it was still a pre-emptive war and therefore wrong by definition; and besides, Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.

Of course, the critics look right because we hardly seem to be winning the war in Iraq. But even here the critics are too smug. We have not won the war in Iraq because of something completely unforeseeable: widespread massacres of Iraqi civilians by other Iraqis and Muslims. We have never seen mass murder of fellow citizens in order to remove an outside occupier. No Japanese blew up Japanese temples in order to rid Japan of the American occupier. No Germans mass murdered German schoolchildren and teachers to rid Germany of the American, British, French and Soviet occupiers.

The level of cruelty and evil exhibited by those America is fighting in Iraq is new. Had Iraq followed any precedent in all the annals of resistance to occupation, America would likely have been victorious in Iraq. It may just be impossible, if one is morally bound not to kill large numbers of civilians, to fight those who target their own civilians and hide among them. But George W. Bush had no way to foresee such systematic cruelty.

With the election of a Democratic Congress and the reversion to the visionless "realists" of George W. Bush's father's administration, the critics are more certain than ever of their moral rectitude. But unless they disagree with Professor Ferguson's assertion that a pre-emptive war in 1938 would have been the most moral thing the Western democracies could have done, they ought to show a little humility. Based on what was known at the time, George W. Bush made a moral choice. And he would have won were it not for something new in the annals of human depravity.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Dennis Prager's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
Really?
Pre-2003 Iraq and 1938 Germany are hardly equivalent. We did stand up to Saddam's aggression, in 1991, and gave him a good pounding. As far as I know, his army's never been a serious threat to any country since then. And we kept the sanctions on until the day we invaded. He was a threat, we put him down and kept him down.

True, everyone (including me) assumed that Saddam still had WMDs, but we knew the same thing about a lot of other countries, many of whom were openly hostile to us(Syria and Iran) or had questionable security (the former Soviet states). In terms of proliferation, Iraq was not unique, or even the biggest threat.

Dennis Prager wrote:
"We have not won the war in Iraq because of something completely unforeseeable: widespread massacres of Iraqi civilians by other Iraqis and Muslims."

How was that unforeseeable? Saddam put Sunnis in positions of power and oppressed Shiites and Kurds. Of course they'd be looking for payback once Saddam was gone, and of course the Sunnis would do whatever they had to to protect themselves. Japan and Germany were (are) mono-ethnic societies. Iraq isn't. To be perfectly frank, any idiot could have foreseen the violence that took place.

Thank you, Kimberly!
Once again you are first in line to prove and validate the EXACT POINT of an essay here at Townhall.com. You are never going to "get it". Is it possible, one wonders, to be illiterate and yet able to read at the same time? Or is yours just a problem with cognition? Perhaps a few night school courses in logic might help you a little, but this presupposes that you still retain the capacity to learn.

Kimberly, I thought you were going to
tell us "How to invoke blame on Michael Moore."


EVER CHANGING REASONS
Any nation that claims to be moral and just should only engage in war when all other options have failed. U. N. inspectors were in Iraq at the time of our invasion. Another 3 months would have been all that was needed to realize that Saddam had no WMD's. If the reasons for this war were WMD's and a link to Al-queda, was 3 months too long to wait to be absolutely positive before sending our brave men and women into harm's way? Were the lives of roughly 2800 dead U. S. soldiers worth approximately 12 weeks?


Prager also wrote "Saddam had already invaded two countries, attempting to eliminate one from the map (Kuwait) and killing a million in the other (Iran)".

Now I know the reason for the war in Iraq is constantly changing, but you're getting pretty desperate when you include the eight year conflict between Iraq and Iran as part of the justification to overthrow Saddam and his government. The U. S. virtually sponsored Iraq (and Saddam) during this war because we didn't want Shi'ite influence in Iraq the way that it was pervasive throughout Iran. Saddam's campaigns of genocide against his own people (particularly the Kurds) were waged with weapons that we provided. When these mass murders were taking place this country looked the other way, and future Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfield even shook Saddam's hand (this still infuriates me) when it was all over with. Mr. Prager, in the future when you're dreaming up reasons to justify this war, please don't include Iraq's war with Iran as one of them.


MacZed
I don't recall saying wait until our enemies are on our soil before attacking. I don't think reasons for war should be ever-changing. I want to trust our president, but he's a man first and a politician second. It wouldn't suprise me one bit if congress and the president used the military for political purposes. And when I say congress and the president, I MEAN ALL PAST AND FUTURE ADMINISTRATIONS. In Iran and North Korea we had two leaders that bragged about their nuclear ambitions and one even wanted to wipe a nation "off the map". Both are openly hostile toward the United States, and Iran resembles the Islamo-fascist enemy that Bush talks about moreso than Iraq ever did. Yet we attacked Iraq, and some Americans, even with all the evidence, refuse to believe that the reason for doing so may be far less than nobel. BTW, was 3 months too long to wait to prevent this war, and in turn focus our attention on more grave dangers?

Would you kill baby Hitler?
Germans and Japanese didn't attack themselves to oust American occupiers because the tools of terrorism available to them were so much more primitive then now. And Americans, although they would have been shocked, were a tougher breed than today. The tactic would not have worked. More importantly, and rather invalidating Prager's point, Iraq is not comparable to Germany or Japan. Iraq is not a real country, but an artificial confederation of inherently hostile groups. Sunnis aren't really targetting themselves, nor are Shiites. No, it isn't a civil war, but it may have been foreseeable.

That's just a quiible, though, and Monday morning quarterbacking.

The idea of preemptive war as immoral is itself a very silly idea. It is based on the pollyanna conceit that all violence is bad. All violence is unpleasant, but not all unpleasant things are bad.

I ask the question after a discursive trek through Wonderland, "Would you kill baby Hitler?"

http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2006/09/dunce-cap.html

Well? Knowing what you know -- not what you imagine must have happened somehow karmically anyway -- would you?


J


A Servicemembers(Warmonger) perspective
As all of you regular TH observers know I have only recently started posting here.Although I have read these comments for about 2 years.
I want to give a little background about me.
I spent 20 years on active duty as an airborne qualified unit supply specialist(Supply Sergeant). All 20 of those years were in active duty Airborne Infantry or Special Operations units. I went everywhere my guys went.I have collected combat pay six times in those 20 years.
I now currently work as a civilian contractor in Iraq. That being said I'm going to tell all you lefties how most servicemembers feel about you and your opinions about war.
1. All your moralistic preahing does is get more people killed in the long run. Your protesting only fuels the enemies resolve and makes him beleive that his leaders are right.
That Americans are weak and stupid and they only have to keep killing a few more; until you and the MSM convince middle America the price is to high. Also all you carping about rules of engagment and collatoral damage make it harder for warfighters to do their jobs. They have to make split second life or death descisions you'll never make. Yet you second guess them at every step of the way and try to vilify them at home.
2. Pretending that the war on terror doesn't exist willn't make us safer. Its counterproductive.
3.You are not saving anybody. We fight because its our job.Thats what you pay us for and if we die thats part and parcel of beeing a warrior.
4. You are cowards who have no real belief system.Telling the troops you support them but not the war makes you hypocrites.You do everything in your power to disrupt the war and that makes it all the harder to fight.It demoralizes the troops and give them the impression that you value a terrorist life more than the lives of your countrymen.
5.We are really sick and tired of hearing obout your lack of civil rights. You don't know what its like to lose just a few of your rights. A servicemember does in countless ways you never understand. Because as anyone who is serving or has served we can tell you daily about sacrificing our rights to the greater good of military discipline.
6. Lifting up veterans of any war who side with you as examples of why you are right doesn't make you right.To all troops and veterans such people are dispised, because they have turned their back on their brothers in arms.Also when you shine the light on them most of them are not the fine upstanding people you want the public to believe they are.Most are malcontents and cowards.
7. We don't need or want you to speak on our behalf.You don't do so for us ;you do it for your own selfish reasons and we see right throught that.What we really want is for you to quitely go away.Yes we know you have rights. But what have you done to earn those rights?
Bottom line is that we do a job you think your too good to do.We do what has to be done for the good of all not just a few.But as I stated thats just a warmongers view that I have earned the hard way.

Right Then, Right Now
If a preemptive strike was the right thing to do in 1938, then it is always the right thing to do in all situations.

Isn't that what he's trying to say?

Then let's launch a preemptive strike against Canada. What ridiculous logic! It's amazing what these people will do. After all these years they're STILL hung up on arguing that invading Iraq was the right thing to do.

Admit the mistake. Let's move on.

Hey Look
I thought the war was the right decision at the time, but I can't say I blame some people for feeling smug if, had their advice been heeded, probably hundreds of thousands of people would now be alive and the U.S. would not be hastening its decline with a mid-east quagmire (yes, quagmire).

And ArticPara85, respectfully, you go too far when you suggest that all dissent is cowardly. Sometimes war is the wrong choice, and if it is, then it is wrong to continue prosecuting such a war. Further, there are many veterans of good conscience whose opinions may differ from yours, in this war and past wars. They and others may believe that ending the war now, while perhaps suggesting that the deaths so far were in vain, may preclude thousands more dead for the same, presumably meaningless, reasons. Which is better? It's also insulting to say that opponents have no belief system. Some don't I am sure. But I'm pretty sure my veteran father does.

Lastly, an American soldier's job isn't simply to fight. It's to fight where the civilian authorities direct him to fight. The people have a right to their voice (not to mention the fact that there would be no technologically advanced military if the U.S. taxpayer didn't cough up $500 billion a year for it). If you don't like that, then the U.S. military isn't the place for you.

They won't be so smug
When the dems "strategy" gets a bunch of Iraqis killed and a major attack occurs in a US city.
"phased re-deployment" is cut and run period.

What the dems and their fellow travelers in the MSM are doing is Viet Nam part 2. The difference is there were no Viet Cong sleeper cells in the US, the folks who suffered were the South Vietnamese who thought our word meant something.

It took a very long time for this country to regain our prestige after that debacle and we are about to lose it again.

You cannot fight a PC war, if they hide in mosques destroy them, if they hide behind civilians too bad, remember Dresden and Tokyo. Hang Saddam as quickly as possible, the Iraqis have to fear his return if the insurgents win, with him truly gone I believe they will be more willing to point out the bad guys.

These insurgents believe we are a weak nation because they see the division, if we had stayed behind GW after 911 like we did in WW2 with FDR and showed them that we will use every item in the inventory to kill them, we wouldn't be where we are now.

GW should give Iran and N Korea 30 days to open up to inspections or we will show them some real nuclear technology, if the Iranians get the bomb, they will annilate Israel,control the middle east and cut off all oil to the US, we will be in the dark and very cold and extremely hungry in about 60 days.

MONTY
You have made my point for me.Once you commit the troops the time for dissent should be over.Once committed you are obligated to support your military. Once committed its time to win not lose.The reason this war has dragged on for so long is that we are not 100% comitted to the war effort.Most Americans only think of the War on Terror(Afghanistan&Iraq are campaigns in that war) in passing. They are only affected if they have a loved one here.To everybody else its a cause or political problem.Nothing else.
The only reason those deaths would be in vain is because of useful idiots who can't wrap their head around the concept of total comitment to our national effort.Who are you to decide its not worth the effort? Are you the one who is comitted to battle? As you have rightly pointed out it is the civilian leadership that commits the military. But do they have the right change their mind in mid stream?The politics of this has been ;its to hard so we must cut and run.
Let me say this whatever your political party or beliefs are if you pull out of Iraq right now it will lead to total destruction there and terrible things at home.Understand this if you are part of the withdrawl crowd you still have ownership of the results of that desicion.Liberals like to equate Iraq to Vietnam; I will grant some resemblence to that war.Politicians playing god for power,lying media,cowards and idiots protesting for nothing.When is protesting going to get you killed? Do you relize your protesting doesn't decrease the number of combat deaths it increases them.Also I have yet to see those liberals from vietnam own up to the bloody genocide that took place after we left.
Again your ideals get the better of reality.
As far as your strawman of your veteran father goes.He at least earned his right to his beliefs; you on other hand have not.They were given to you by your father and his service to the nation.You were only lucky enough to be born in the U.S. You hold up your rights before those that serve. As I posted earlier servicemembers neither want or need you to speak for them. You speak at the voting booth.Its time for you and your politicians to live up to that commitment.
The war was voted on and authorized, having cold feet and regreting that decision is not grounds to surrender. As far as not belonging in the military;you sir are correct.I saw the writing on the wall during the 04 elections.I retired in early 05 ,because I didn't believe idiots like you were worth fighting for.To all others who support the military I say thank you; keep it up they need you more now then ever.

ArticPara85 / Right On.
ArticPara85 writes: “1. All your moralistic preahing does is get more people killed in the long run. Your protesting only fuels the enemies resolve and makes him beleive that his leaders are right.”

Right on. I think most of the “protest crowd” knows this, they just don’t care. I don’t think most Leftists are unintelligent, I think they just hate our country, and everything it stands for.


ArticPara85 writes: “2. Pretending that the war on terror doesn't exist willn't make us safer. Its counterproductive.”

Absolutely. As long as it’s happening “somewhere else” though, the enemy within will do everything in its power to undermine America’s efforts to win the war.


ArticPara85 writes: “3.You are not saving anybody. We fight because its our job.Thats what you pay us for and if we die thats part and parcel of beeing a warrior.”

The Left doesn’t really care about saving anybody. Their actions are always self-serving in the guise of some “greater good”, always have been.


ArticPara85 writes: “4. You are cowards who have no real belief system. Telling the troops you support them but not the war makes you hypocrites.”

I am convinced they understand this, and they intentionally choose not to acknowledge it. When I was young I used to think leftists were stupid, but I no longer believe that, because I know they’re not unintelligent. They seem to intentionally close their eyes to the truth, making the truth subservient to their selfish goals and utopian ideals. In essence, they place their faith in the wisdom of men, and choose evil as an expedient to accomplishing their goals. And they know they are cowards, too.


ArticPara85 writes: “It demoralizes the troops and give them the impression that you value a terrorist life more than the lives of your countrymen.”

It’s not just an impression, it’s a reality. They don’t know or care about the individual United States troops, they don’t know or care about the individual terrorists (a.k.a. “freedom fighters” as the Left sees them), and they don’t know or care about the innocent civilians either, so the whole conflict is an abstract exercise in how they can twist the truth to their own advantage in the media to accomplish political goals. It won’t become “real” to them until it affects them personally on a regular and ongoing basis.


ArticPara85 writes: “5.We are really sick and tired of hearing obout your lack of civil rights. You don't know what its like to lose just a few of your rights. A servicemember does in countless ways you never understand. Because as anyone who is serving or has served we can tell you daily about sacrificing our rights to the greater good of military discipline.”

Amen. Service members are not the only ones who are sick and tired of hearing the Leftists’ “civil rights” song and dance routine.


ArticPara85 writes: “6. Lifting up veterans of any war who side with you as examples of why you are right doesn't make you right.”

They know this, and they don’t care. They will use anyone who agrees with them to bolster their cause.


ArticPara85 writes: “To all troops and veterans such people are dispised, because they have turned their back on their brothers in arms. Also when you shine the light on them most of them are not the fine upstanding people you want the public to believe they are.Most are malcontents and cowards.”

Again, they don’t care. They nominated just such a person as the democratic candidate for president in 2004.


ArticPara85 writes: “7. We don't need or want you to speak on our behalf. You don't do so for us ;you do it for your own selfish reasons and we see right throught that. What we really want is for you to quitely go away. Yes we know you have rights. But what have you done to earn those rights?”

I echo every single one of those sentiments. I think most conservatives do.


ArticPara85 writes: “I spent 20 years on active duty as an airborne qualified unit supply specialist (Supply Sergeant). All 20 of those years were in active duty Airborne Infantry or Special Operations units. I went everywhere my guys went. I have collected combat pay six times in those 20 years.”

I think you will find many people here at Townhall who are grateful for the incredible effort, service and self-sacrifice the men and women of our military put forth in order to keep our country safe. Thank you for your comments and the perspective you bring.

Thank you for your outstanding service to our country, Sergeant.

Arctic
Arctic....I wrote a post and it didn't post...
I am a veteran and I am with you 100%.
What Dave and Monty don't or refuse to understand is that you are the ones who give them the right to Sh** on the troops all the while being hypoctrites and armchair Presidents.
They do not understand Duty, Honor,Country.
They do not understand that someone would actually understand death as a sacrifice in fighting for what you believe in. (That tax money goes there instead of to boost some social program must really frost them,too.)
I promise you this. Since 9/11, I wake up everyday and think about what the terrorists have done to this country. Not a day goes by when I do anything that doesn't make me thankful that troops are out there defending my "proverbial a**", my ability to walk down the street, grocery shop and not be scared sh**less that an IED is going to take me or mine out. I would have joined up again, but the age thing is a killer. I get it, and as long as those people out there want to live in their perceived reality that terrorism doesn't exist,let them. It will happen again, and pulling out of Iraq is a perfect recipe for an attack on US soil. They will only believe it when they see it unfortunatley. Thanks Arctic, great posts. We in this house know freeedom isn't free.

ArticPara85, I said it before...
..I'll say it again, the U.S. Military, I just love 'em.

Your above post "nailed truth to power". And as Scott writes...I'll second all you said as probably all who really understand this WOT will.

Prager is dead on about the Left and it always amazes me that this nation has such haters within that call themselves American (Leftist Democrats and SP's). I've tried to rationalize it as Scott has and he's right, I believe, in his assessment, however, I also believe it's almost a satanic inspired blindness on their part as well as the hatred, probably stemming from a self loathing.

But the bottom line is that thinking is going to get us killed/attacked on our soil again, and that makes it personal.


Read for Once
I think many people here (well, probably at most public posting sites) lack reading comprehension skills. Nobody is sh**ting on the troops, o.k? There is just a disagreement as to what to do to resolve this, probably the largest foreign policy blunder in U.S. history. The consensus here seems to be something like: Do what it takes to win, i.e. use whatever force is necessary to pacify Iraq. Well, great. That's all fine and good until Iraq is nothing more than a flattened graveyard. Would that be "Mission Accomplished?" People like me have come to the conclusion that no amount of force that would be palatable to America and the world would succeed in pacifying Iraq. In other words, in order to succeed, we would have to become as ruthless as Saddam was, which, you know, kind of defeats the whole "shining city on a hill" image. Therefore, throwing more lives at the problem is truly in vain. So, please, cut it out with the theme that everybody who disagrees with the Bush Administration or your vision of killing more Americans and Iraqis is sh**ting on the troops.

I'd like to know if there is a point at which the pro-war posters here, most of whom I'm sure have not served in the military yet feel as much right as me to comment on the situation, would say, o.k., more war isn't helping...we need to go.

Also, what's with the idea that soldiers die so that Americans have the right to speak out, so therefore Americans shouldn't speak out? E.g., if my father served in the military to "give me the right to free speech" (a debatable proposition, as he would tell you, considering it was Vietnam), am I not supposed to exercise the right? Do I have the right or not, is my question? If I don't, then what are soldiers dying for?

The pacifists are calling the shots...
There will always be people who feel that violence in self-defense is inhumane to the terrorist and that the proper action is to roll over and take a beating if for no other reason that you exist and the terrorist doesn't like that about you. Standing up for truth, liberty and continued survival is an anathema to the spineless and forever will be. Sadly liberals have persuaded Americans to believe that the fight for our way of life isn't worth it. What is so hypocritical about that mentality is we enjoy freedoms today because Americans in the past wouldn't kneel before a tyrant or terrorist and never sold their soul in the name of peace at any price.

To see these liberals [Democrat and Republican] stand silently in the face of immiment evil is disgusting to any patriot of this great country. The words, "We will never forget" echoed in the aftermath of 9/11 and how quickly we break our promises as a people and a nation.

support the troops huh
Kimberly and Frey make believe they are nuanced and informed when in fact they are hopelessly ignorant. Don't even bother arguing because nothing is worth any violence to them until they are already being shot at.

Given the information we had then Bush made the right choice to remove Saddam. The nation building stuff afterwards is certainly debateable but the choice to remove him was correct. Fact is NOONE knew what Saddam had or going to do and Bush did not trust in the UN for our safety. Thank heavens.

Saddam was much more a threat than Milosevic in Bosnia - You know that guy who never threatened us and in which we are still there?

-John Murtha saying our troops are murdering people in cold blood.
-Sack of dung Kennedy saying Saddams torture chambers just opened under new management.
-We take out terrorists-who DO NOT wear uniforms and the reporters print that we killed X civillians. Like they have one clue who they are.
-Whining and crying about interrogating terrorists, who have NO RIGHTS since they do not wear uniforms and report to a government.
-The media crones about quagmire, no end in sight, rising deaths, etc.

These things support the troops? These things do not embolden our enemies?
If you believe that you are a grand FOOL.

Keep talking Dhimmi-crats, maybe they will kill you last.

Why so eager for our defeat?
Are we missing the point here? The Democrats are now the majority party in Congress...they now have automatic buy-in to the war. Shouldn't they want to do everything possible to win it? I mean, really win it? Then they can be the big heroes and claim to have saved the day instead of being known for mewling and puking all this defeatist stuff.

Retroactively blaming the previous guys won't absolve Democrats from being the party in power if/when the war is lost. I learned this from the left when they told me I couldn't dare blame Clinton for 9/11 because Bush was in office at the time.

Unless someone has access to a time machine and can change the past, why do people insist on obsessing over any one of the many reasons we went to war? We're there...we have to win.

We can't just say 'oops, we were mistaken,' pack up and go home, and expect to be taken seriously on the world stage again, especially after doing it so many times before. The left acts as if there aren't any other players in this war than the two sides of the US political spectrum, but there's a whole lot of other people watching what we do...not the least of which are the terrorists that the left doesn't want to defeat and remove their power (and incentive) to do us harm.

Do us a favor, Kimberly, clinton fan, Monty...if you're so correct about things and the right has gotten us into a mess, do something to help us win it first and then afterward you can toss about any kind of accusations you want. But unless you're helping the US to win, please just shut up and let us do our jobs without being cut off at the knees at home.

By the way, I don't appreciate or want the kind of 'support' that emboldens our enemies and makes my job harder.

The problem is fundamentally Islam
This level of cruelty is repeated throughout over 1300 years of Islam's "message of peace." The war was right and neccessary, but I hope that expectation of a different outcome was a sales-pitch. THIS IS NOT NEW. READ HISTORY.

Poor Kimberly & friends
I stand fast with ArcticPara, Seawolf, and the like.

Kimberly & friends won't see the light until the split second before his/her head is sliced off.

Sadam's bombmaking efforts
Have any of your debaters read "Sandam's Bombmaker", by an Irakian named Hamsi? I presume you have, because it has been around for 10 years. Sadam did his best to make an atomic bomb, according to Hamsi. He acted like a mad man. Besides using chemical weapons against the Kurdish population, and the pulling out (literally) the tongs of whoever spoke badly of him, or his wife's dress. As I see it, the only wrong thing the Americans have done so far, is that they did not shoot him dead when they found him, cowing like a rat, in a hole. But then, hopefuly the Irakians themselves will do the the job, this time, and hang him. Good riddance.

not a team
We can never win a war of any kind so long as Part of our country is fighting against those who run and execute the war. Loyalty was lost long ago and constant criticism and opposition has aided the enemy. Observe how the various statements of our left are used by the enemy. Think about the glee of our enemies at the success of the democrats in this last election. I am old enough to remember WWII and what real patriotism is like. I know how we all worked at patriotism daily. There were numerous small things to remind us of our part like saving out tin cans and turning them in for the war effort. Now all we hear is that to be a critic is to be patriotic. It makes me frightened for my grandchildrens' future.

donald
So what wars did FDR serve in? or LBJ?
I guess you voted for Bob Dole in 96, or did Clinton serve in some war I am not aware of?

Have you ever built a car? Then how can you ask others to do this for you? Are you some kind of motorhawk?
Have you receieved socialist security? Then keep quiet about SS issues, you aren't authorized to comment!
Are you rich? Then you have no business talking about upper tax rates!

I could go on showing your foolishness but I am sure TU gets the point.

PS: We know who the communists support:
http://www.cpusa.org/

We won the war
I am so tired of hearing how we are still at war. We won the war. Saddam was defeated. Now we are dealing with insurgency that Iran, Syria is perpetrating.

If you go back prior to war you will see all the comments/quotes made by "left"(Kennedy, Pelosi, Clinton...) every single one of them said that Saddam is a threat because of WMD and needs to be taken out.

Instead of all the politicians in Washington we need some real leaders out for the interest of the American people and not for themselves.


Prager is wrong wrong wrong!
This article is so full of nonsense and errors it's hard to know where to begin.

Prager: "Virtually every intelligence service believed that Saddam either had or was working on attaining WMD."

Phylo: Many people in the intelligence community SUSPECTED that he MIGHT have WMD. However, there was never ANY solid evidence to back up the intelligence! NONE! And besides, many of those people believed it because that's what the POTUS told them!

What Prager refuses to acknowledge is that the White House was out there saying all kinds of things that they had no right to be saying.

For example: On Aug 26th of '03 Cheney, at a speech, said that there is NO DOUBT that Saddam has WMD. Well, that came as quite a shock to a man seated behind Cheney on the stage––General Anthony Zinni.

Here's a quote by Zinni taken from the book Fiasco (p. 50), regarding the incident: "In my time at Centcom, I watched the intelligence and never––not once–– did it say 'He has WMD.'"

Since retiring he had retained all of his top-secret clearances and was consulting with the CIA on Iraq, he had reviewed all of the current intelligence––and he had seen nothing to support Cheney's certitude.

In other words, according to Anthony Zinni, who knows a lot more about the real story than Prager and all of you on this website comnbined, is saying that Cheney LIED about the WMD threat.

Pre-emptive war may be justified in some cases, but the FACT is: We didn't have the kind of solid evidence of a threat that would justify this invasion.


Prager: "Saddam refused to allow UN inspectors unfettered access to Iraq, even when he had every reason to believe that America would attack him."

Phylo: This is a complete lie! The inspectors were kicked out by BUSH! They could've continued their inspections, but Bush wanted to get the war started.


Prager: "Saddam gave $25,000 to the families of Palestinian terrorists who blew up Israelis."

Phylo: Sure that's bad, but it doesn't justify us invading Iraq. The two have almost nothing to do with each other!


Prager: "Saddam had already invaded two countries, attempting to eliminate one from the map (Kuwait) and killing a million in the other (Iran)."

Phylo: Yeah, and we already went to war with him over Kuwait, and we supported him in killing the one million people in Iran.


Prager: "President Bush had very good reason to believe then, and we have very good reason to believe now, that Saddam was indeed seeking uranium from the African country of Niger."

Phylo: While he MIGHT have been seeking it, all we have as evidence are some documents that were proven to be forgeries. Besides, even if he tried, he couldn't have succeeded AND he didn't have the infrastructure to do anything with it even if he could have procured it!

I know a lot of you will argue with what I've said. So let me just say this as a pre-emptive retort: If you really believe that the White House did not manipulate the pre-war intel, than you must assume that Phase II of the Senate Itelligence Committee report (the only report specifically tasked with looking into the manipulation of pre-war intel) will exonerate your boys (and Condi). And if you believe that, than why aren't you all screaming for the release of that report? Why folks? Why?

Phylo out.


the wars opponents.
It seems that they know so much about what there isn't in a country so distant from their luxury, and comforts, here far from the dangers of war. How is it that their intellegence groups can be so right on, and our professional intellegence people havent a clue? Are they really on our side when it comes down to the bare battle of right. or are they rattling a sabor of discontent because they feel that when all is said and done they will be left out of the makeing of a new middle east. It seems to me that it is so easy to be a nay sayer. Because in every situation there will always be something that goes wrong. All I would really like from these People is for them to do something instead of Bush whacking, and yelling at the top of their lungs
NO THAT HAS TO BE WRONG! BECAUSE I'M NOT THE FIRST TO SEE OR DO OR SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT. The biggest thing wrong in this country today is the politicians who have been able to buy their positions.Take their money away and they will be armchairing it here with the rest of us.God bless and keep America safe from them.

SHOULD HAVE USE SPECIAL OPPS
To go in and sniper out Saddam if they no longer wanted the monster that the US created in the first place in power any longer. If the objective was to remove Saddam from power, discover and destroy any WMD that Saddam had, special opp forces could have carried out the mission and saved the lives of the just about 3000 US military personal, and not forgetting the 25,000- 30,000 who have been seriously wounded while fighting in Iraq. The US has all but totally destroyed cities and villages that were once home to Iraq families, and the cost to rebuild Iraq is something that will effect the US economy for years to come. Terrorism and Us security should be the number one priority for the US military and the CIA, politics and politicians need to be removed from the war room. Politicians have screwed this entire mission, he11 this entire nation up and should be held accountable starting from the very top, and punished to the full extent of the law. billions and billions of dollars have already been spent in Iraq, and billions more will be spent rebuilding what we have destroyed, hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens have killed and all that has been accomplished so far is death, destruction and Iraq being in worse shape than it was before the US invasion. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

hntr admin
http://www.headsneedtoroll.org

The Dems have no plan at al
All of their effort has been to get President Bush to do the withdrawal for them. Then, when that doesn't work, they will blame President Bush and the Republicans.

We will soon see the breathtaking deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. The deaths will be well reported until a Democrat is in the white house. Then the carnage will no longer be seen on TV or the papers. Suddenly the death of Iraqis will no longer be of concern for Kimberly or C-Drag, unless the Republican party starts to show signs of life again.

MONTY
We do not have a reading comprehension problem.What we have is a failure to communicate.
What other posters and I have said is that the relentless armchair generaling by demonstrators and leftist pundits is disrepectful to the troops.I was a troop And I told you how I felt.
Better men than I have felt the same way and we voted with our feet by retiring or getting out.
This endless cycle teeth gnashing and wailing about shiny ideals is conterproductive. Shiny ideals do you no good when your dead. Ya; I know its never gonna happen here.Think again moonbat.

You had your right to speak out at the voting booth.Your politicians voted to authorize the war;just like mine.Why do we have to suborn our nation to the whims of others? We have more affect nations than they have on us. Most of the world lives in comfort, because we spend for our defense that also protects them.Are we supposed to roll over and die just because they dont agree with our actions? When do shiny ideals become a suicied pact? What we are trying to tell you idiot is that your right to speak out does not trump your duty to the nation.As I said before no matter what you belive you are responsible for the consequences of your actions.
Your belief in self is greater than your responsibilities to your fellow countrymen.NOBODY ELSE MATTERS.

r2-d2
The briliance of you argument, the skillful way you weave words together, the never failing logic and continuous flow of facts have combined to convince me to rethink my entire position, you are totally correct. When we surrender, which Iatollah are we going to put in charge of our country? Or will we ask the French to lead us?

The template is set
James,

Thanks for your post, but the left has not bought into the war at all, they don't own it or any parts of it.

Don't you realize that no matter what scenario happens, whether a nuclear bomb hits in NYC or DC, whether Iraq now dissolves into total civil war, whatever,it will still be Bush's fault?

If there are radical assassins on the streets of Dubuque, Iowa, the template is still set. It's the fault of Bush and the neo cons who lied us into an illegal war and stirred up the hornet's nest, angered and unleashed the terrorists, and as per the report excerpt, "made America less safe". As we know, N. Korea and Iraq were fine until Mr. Bush provoked and frightened their leaders, forcing them to arm and take warlike positions.

As Mr. Kerry said, "I won't know what kind of mess I'm inheriting in the Middle East and how long it might take for me to set it right until I'm elected".

The Dems have bought nothing. If things improve, they get full credit. If not, it was Bush's fault for creating an unworkable situation. Watch and see...


False assumptions
Will lead to a false conclusion, and this article is full of false or misleading statements. Most of them have already been pointed out, except for one: the "War in Iraq" is not our war to win. It is the Iraqi government that will win or lose it.

The United States won the War ON Iraq, and set up a new government with what there was. Mission Accomplished.Their internal security is not our problem to solve. The only reason we are there is because the current government wants us there, and when they want us to leave, we need to go.

The only time the left will acknowledge
that Iraq was a threat or that WMD's existed is if Bush had done nothing. Then it would be all his fault for exactly the same reasons.

Does anyone not believe that this is what they would say:

1. "Everyone knew that Saddam had the weapons because he used them on other countries and his own people."
2. "Every intelligence agency around the world told us that Saddam was looking to develop more WMDs".
3. "Saddam was a known enabler of terrorists, from the $25K subsidy for suicide bomber families to the harboring of known terrorists".
4. "Saddam was a known killer of hundreds of thousands of Iranians and Iraquis".

"Bush is stupid. How could anyone not see what was about to happen? Didn't he learn anything from 9-11? There is only one answer; he obviously allowed it to happen so that US oil companies (his buddies) could then get cheaper oil. Bush must be impeached"

We did not understand Iraq
Right now, we are assisting a Shiite dominated government which has Iranian ties, in fighting a Sunni insurgency. We did not foresee this. (Even I was for the war at the beginning). Sunni suicide bombers are blowing up Shiites, and Shiite torture squads are drilling holes into Sunnis and then dumping their bodies in public places. If I were a Sunni, I wouldn't want a Shiite government. If I were a Shiite, I wouldn't want a Sunni government.
The only people who leave our troops alone are the Kurds. And they will be shafted when we leave.
The US army cannot fight an enemy that hides among hostile civilians. Its time to leave. I'm just sorry for the Kurds and anyone else who cast their lot in with us.

Making Money
Again Kimberly has shown us another improper way to make money. It's begining to look like the list of acceptable ways is much shorter than the list of unacceptable ways.

I'm still waiting for her to find a source to quote from to give an understandable reason why making money is bad.

To Bob
Democrats don't have a choice whether they buy in. They won an election and now they're in. Quit hand-wringing about whose fault it is and enable the victory.

Quote the non-inheriting Kerry all you want...it doesn't change a single thing. Democrats have ownership of part of the war now, and it's their responsibility to do their best to win.

Or if not, just shut them up and let us do it without them.

PHYLO
Phylo...again,basing your observations using perceived reality, not what IS.
Oh--on Phase II, was I talking out my A**, or do you just hate to be wrong? and maybe the leaked reports you spoke of were the ones Baker is working on...Roberts opinion differes from some of the other contributors to this report,bythe way. (Equality and all that...)
Again, you are ignoring that there were WMD's found...the Pentagon said so. But,they aren't credible enough for you...Scott what's his name, and David Kay are yours and Kimberly's favorite cites.
GO HERE:
http://www.bizzyblog.com/PolishChemMunitions070204.html and http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_iraq_070704,00.html

How about reading some other book besides Fiasco
Alan Bloom: Closing of the American Mind, Netanyahu's Fighting Terrorism, or Natan Sharansky. You know, broaden your horizons, just a tiny bit.

War
Will we ever again have a sustained national consensus for war? Not special ops or air ops or limited war/police actions; total war against an enemy. How bad will the enemy and its actions have to be? How great/immediate/continuing will its threat have to be? What if the enemy masquerades as civilians and uses women and children as shields? What if the enemy attacks our civilians on US soil (continually, I guess I must add)?
I cannot imagine at this time any such enemy that the Democratique Party and its mainstream media would oppose and fight until they defeat it.
And I fear that we can't do it without them.
And we (all) might be facing that enemy right now.
Let us pray.

Fundamental Flaw
The fundamental flaw of Praeger's argument is that no one knows what might have happened if the Allies had waged "pre-emptive war" in 1938. His assumption ... unstated ... is that war with Germany (and its allies) would have been avoided, and the ends would have justified the means. What goes unsaid is elimination of Hitler was not a "done deed" in 1938, or that elimination of Hitler would have also served to eliminate Fascism as a viable option. The Great Depression was almost a knockout blow for Capitalism. Both Communism and Fascism rose in response ... the one on the left offering a supposed alternative to capitalism, the one on the right entrenching state capitalism. There were certainly lots of powerful and influential voices in this country that favored Fascism as a more desirable alternative to Communism (particularly the Mussolini and Franco versions ... but even Prescott Bush was an early support -- at least -- of Hitler).

With Hitler out of the picture (assuming Praeger's faith in preemptive war in 1938 was successful), there is no guarantee that Fascism might not have evolved into some form of democratic or parliamentarian system, as well.

In other words, preemptive war might have served to avoid World War II (and there is no guarantee of that!), but there is no way of knowing what would have developed subsequent to the vacuum of a non-Nazi Germany without a world in which Fascism, itself, had not been discredited. In short, by improperly applying an incorrect historical argument to justify current events, Praeger makes a fundamental error. We cannot know "what would have happened", and certainly cannot take one scenario from the possibility and use it to justify current events.

I also found the question, asked earlier ... "Would you have killed a baby Hitler?" to be quite telling. The question poses a moral conundrum for the right wing -- particularly the socially conservative and fundamental Christian wing of the right. Does the right to life have limitations?

"Had Iraq followed any precedent ... "
Mr. Prager makes some very good points, however in his recitation of "ifs" he fails to note two important points:

(1) Iraq has followed precedent ... the Viet Cond did exactly the same types of things (bombings, etc.), against their own people, that the Muslim extremists do in Iraq today.

(2) The war was lost because our enemies were aided and abetted by many here in the U.S. (these people can reasonably be called traitors).

The left has consistently said for the last four years that Iraq is another Vietnam. It isn't, but not for their lack of trying to make it so.

Given the extremes the left, and the MSM, will go to today to undermine the values and strengths of this great country, I would not be surprised to see the "next Vietnam" taking place right here at home.

Buying into the war
James,

Hope you are right. My post was cynical in the extreme, but we can hope they will roll up their sleeves and help do what is best for the country. Based on the level of dialogue pre-election,I have some doubts, but we can all try to move forward in a positive direction.

Dave asks ...
"Will we ever again have a sustained national consensus for war? Not special ops or air ops or limited war/police actions; total war against an enemy. How bad will the enemy and its actions have to be? How great/immediate/continuing will its threat have to be? What if the enemy masquerades as civilians and uses women and children as shields? What if the enemy attacks our civilians on US soil (continually, I guess I must add)?"

We had that consensus, or have you forgotten? It was just a few years ago, as well.

I do not think there was any credible voice in this country who did not recognize that the WTC was attacked by operatives of al-Qaida, that the al-Qaida leadership was in Afghanistan, and that the Taliban government in Afghanistan (once our ally against the Soviet Union, it must be remembered) refused to let us go get Osama. The war against al-Qaida and the Taliban, in Afghanistan, had national consensus.

That war effort would have been sustained, too ... except this President decided to extend the conflict into Iraq. There was NO consensus (and still is none) that Iraq was the enemy, and the President had to build a case to justify it. There was NO consensus (and still is none) that he successfully built that case, or that he correctly interpretted (or even considered) all the evidence while building it. And there was NO consensus (and still is none) that preemptive war in Iraq (removing Saddam, eliminating an eminent threat, building democracy ... or any other number of changing "goals") was a more legitimate goal than pursuing Osama bin Laden.

Bush's arrogance..
and stupidity is why we're in the mess we're in.

I voted twice for him and believed the Iraq war was correct. We could have won that war by now, but Bush's eyes glaze over when he actually has to look at detailed facts. He's a stubborn and arrogant jerk.

I've come to that conclusion because these qualities are shining bright with the illegal invasion. He REFUSES to look at the facts...so sure he is that he is righteous and KNOWS.

So, like others have said...just like in Viet Nam (where I was up there protesting with all the other stupid liberals at the time)..we'll pull out because we don't fight wars like we mean it. (read Shelby Steele's 'White Guilt' if you want to figure out the basis of it all) and it'll be a blood bath.......just like Viet Nam...and Kimberly et al, will ignore it...just like Viet Nam.

Meanwhile, all of our 'compassion' and politcal correctness and white guilt will have the Islamic Facist violently destroying this country while the millions of uneducated and poor from the south will be destroying and bankrupting it through non violent means.

Where's Reagan when you need him? This president, I feel, lost the midterms on purpose...now he'll get Martinez heading the GOP and ramming amnesty down our throats. Meanwhile, as I said, his stupidity (a letal combo...ignorance and arrogance) has made a mess of Iraq.

Kimberly
Yes I am doing that awful capitalist thing making money.What you don't understand is that I'm here because somebody like you decided that the military didn't need all those extra people hanging around getting paid too much for no benifit(peacetime military) so you cut the force.
Now when guys like me retire or complete our terms of service and become contractors we are evil because we make too much money.How does that detract from my prior service? What do you know of being a contractor here? Do you have to endure the mortar attacks on the camps?Do you get shot at or IED like the truckers do?NO YOU DON'T.Bye the way you also get to see your family everyday not 10 Days every 120 days or more. Also I have to rely on the military for protection;Due to the laws of land warfare I can't be armed.But don't cry for me(I know you wont); I chose to be here for personal reasons.
Patriotism has nothing to do with it.You got 22 years of that for peanuts.So don't lecture me about filthy lucra and the evils of contractors.
Maybe you should know there are quiet a few contractors supporting the troops at home too.
It just makes more economic sense.
Kimberly; don't you dare lecture me about supporting the troops. As I have posted earlier I have been reading these post for 2 years.I know what a moonbat you are.I have never seen you anywhere I have been.The 1st Gulf War,Bosnia,Panama,the Philiphines, And Iraq twice.Bye the way I have never seen you on any of my over 200 static line jumps in 20 years.So take your self righteous BS and shove where the sun don't shine. I have earned the right to lecture you, and I refuse to roll over for you.
I despise your arraogance and self loathing.
The best thing for you is to curl up in the corner and be quite why the adults take care of business.



Shays
I think Pragers assumption regarding Hitler circa 1938 was a stretch.

Was there any military stronger than Hitler at the time; certainly not the US.

As a general statement though (as generalizations realize exceptions) he is right.

Right now I think Bush should go further. If he really wants a safer future for the US he should simultaneously(sp), begin a week long bombing campaign of known Iranian nuke sites. If they are 100 ft underground it will take a couple of years to dig out and then start again. At the same time take 10-15,000 of our best infantry into Sadr City slums and take down the militia by anihilation!! If Sadr has to die, so be it.

This will send all the right messages to all parties that need to hear it; Russia, China, Iran, Syria, and the Shia, that we are very serious and very willing to do what is necessary.

The left in our country will go nuts and once again show their cowardice. I think the political fall out would be benificial the the republicans in the end.

Just a thought.

11h

Premature
Personally I had no objections to invading Iraq but I did have reservations about the timing. The timing was wrong because, as any chess player knows, to go on the offense before all your pieces are in place is just plain suicide. The only solution is to regroup, get all the pieces developed, and plan a new strategy.

Mr. Shays' focus
Exactly. The consensus (as seen now) was for a war against one person. But bin Laden is (was?) one general in the enemy's army.

Strategy/failed
Whatever the real goal of the Bush policy was for the invasion of Iraq it is obviously a failure; not complete by any means, but wars are fought to further political aims. So unless Bush's goal was to remove his party from power that end of it at least, has failed.

The only time the american people will stick behind you is if you fight the war to WIN! This normally means the complete anihilation of the enemy. The dictating to them the conditions of their surrender.

The imagined subtleties of an oppressed population (and trying to promote good will), should have fallen way down the list of post war priorities.

Every war since WWII has been fought to something other than victory, and americans can not stand that. So for the next 2 years the republicans have any control, they should conduct the war as if the next president will be a democrat that will follow the euro-head-in-the-sand-approach to military conflict, and get something done on the ground in Iraq.

When ever politicians base policy, or military decisions on saving their power, the electorate can smell it a mile away.

This is why the GOP is on the way out! As the knuckle head on fox puts it, the republicans just were not looking out for the folks!!

11h

Anything less then
a 110% commitment to winning is not supporting the troops.

I have stopped being amazed at the ignorance and arrogance of the left.

11hotel
Right on ... except for one item -- I don't think it's much of a stretch at all to equate this war situation with 1938. I fear for the future if and when this war expands to USA soil. We'll be fighting our own countrymen along with the foreign enemy, but I, for one, won't worry about playing "fair." The traitors will be well known.

France and Britain Were Stronger
What most people forget, especially Americans, is the fact that in 1938 France had overwhelming advantage in both armour and raw strength. If you add Britain's Navy and Air Force was well as thier own ground forces, Germany would have failed.

What is even more ironic, is that in 1936, when Hitler reoccupied the Saar and Rhineland (with only a weak rifle batallion), France could have single handily defeat the Reichswehr. Just like Saddam in 1998, Hitler in 1936 broke a major treaty, which if enforced would have most certainly led to his downfall.

During the Anschluss in 1938, 80% of Germany's armour broke down on the autobahnen, over 50% of the infantry couldn't even mobilise; if it wasn't for the energetic staff work of von Manstein, the Anschluss with Austria would have been a major embarassment for Hitler.

The Czech goverment was more than strong enough to hold its fortified lines in Moravia and Sudentenland; however, the knife in the back which Chamberlin and Daladier stuck into Czecheslovakia did the dirty work. Without England or France's support Czech had to give into Hitler's demands.

Hitler couldn't have started his expansion if it wasn't for a major assist from both France and England. They were more than strong enough to fight and defeat Hitler in 1938.

WE DID FIND WMDS!!!
"It is overwhelmingly likely that even if we had found WMD in Iraq..."

We DID find WMDs in Iraq.

In June, 2006, a National Ground Intelligence Center report was unclassified which detailed the recovery of some 500 munitions with mustard gas and sarin nerve agent.

STOP telling us we didn't find WMDs when this is irrefutably not true.

http://intelligence.house.gov/Media/PDFS/DNILetter.pdf

Pacifism
The pacifists are calling the shots, but only because our brave military has kept this country free for 200 years by shedding its blood on their behalf...it is nice to be idealistic, but somewhere along the line you have to fight for what you believe...if it had been up to the pacifists, we would not be a free country today.

By the way, why fuel Kimberly...if you all just avoided commenting on her ravings and rantings, she would be speaking to empty seats! Remember, there are none so blind as those who refust to see.

Winning and Losing
I wanted to jump up and down as I read through the posts and scream "We won the dang war! We removed Saddam from power." What we are struggling with is nation building and the propoganda war that the terrorists are waging. We helped drive Saddam out of Kuwait and then let the Kurds down by not supporting their attempt to overthrow Saddam (1991). The Kurds paid the price for that. When we attacked and removed Saddam from power this time, I didn't want us to make the same mistake by abandoning those that wanted to live without being held under the thumb of another dictator. The enemy we are fighting now lives in a different plane of reality than we do. We have tried to be humanitarian by building and rebuilding their infastructure (power, water, schools, hospitals, etc.) only to have those facilities continually attacked and often destroyed by those that don't want us to succeed even if that success would help them, or our failure would hurt them. We have tried to be politally correct by not resorting to the tactics of the enemy; we have not bombed mosques that they fire at us from. They don't wear uniforms and hide in civilian populations and then claim civilians are killed if we respond to attacks. They have lied continuously (need I mention the Minister of Dis-Information that was proclaiming how American blood was running in the streets even as our tanks were rolling through the capital?) about death counts, atrocities committed by Coalition forces, activities of the militias, etc. Everything that is said by anyone from that region has to be taken with a grain of salt.

I have come to the conclusion that the Iraqis do not have the capacity to understand what democracy, (or a democratic republic) is, and what it takes to create or maintain one. They know nothing but dictatorships, and the lack of freedom espoused by the Koran. We have not done a good job of getting the message out that we aren't trying to take over their country or permanently occupy them; but to help them establish a government that will provide them a better life and not be a threat to us. We don't want to be there any more than they want us there. We would have left long ago if they had not perpetrated the insurgency. If we leave now, the lesson learned is that insurgency gets you what you want. It is like letting a child who pitches a fit have their way. They learn that if they pitch a big enough fit for long enough, eventually they get what they want. That is not a behavior that can be tolerated. They need to learn that pitching a fit only makes it worse; i.e. insurgency will only bring about your death and will NOT make us go away. Libs don't seem to understand this and the results of their beliefs are quire evident in the behavior of many of today's young people.

We won the shooting war. The terrorists, leftists and mainstream media are winning the propoganda war in painting the U.S. as the bad guy.

GO Luke!!!
Making us proud!! I could not hae said it any better Skywalker81!!!

Prager on target
Thank you Dennis for being on target! I am impressed to see so many good comments that point out our national failing to support the war in Iraq with a variety of good reasons to allow our need to be united in that support as civilians. I add:

1. We put our troops into position and delayed the attach to the virtual last minute before the heat would have sent our guys home to try to come again in the following cooler season. That action would have looked so negative as to probably have denied the chance to return. Our enemies fought in the U.N. to almost reach this point. Pres. Bush went ahead, thinking that among the reasons all would accept was the one that had such strong appeal- the threat of Iraqi having nukes and other WMD used in the past. All were somehow hidden or removed by the man who had used them! Why do we now assume that they never existed?

2. That Saddam wanted to control the middle east was certainly obvious to anyone in touch with the realities of his performance.

3. Now it is the time for his Iranian opponents to seize the chance to dominate,if they can just get the U.S. out of Iraq. Thanks to the U.S. general ignorance and will to search for faster solutions, we now have a Congress in control of the liberal fringe that will try hard to stop the campaign to get the Iraqi experiment in democracy to happen.

4. When Iran takes over all of the middle east, we can soon expect Israel to be 'wiped off the map' to complete the job Hitler failed to finish for some reason? Oh yeah, the U.S. was a united partner with the anti-Hitler,Tojo,Mussolini allies.

5. When will we discover that some radical Muslim will detonate in NYC a nuke and leave us to wonder who was he? With no remains to be found, no source to be identified, what can we as a nation do? Go kill all in some nation? Which one? Better to wait until what?

Kimberly
You wrote: "Excuse me, sdan. But you seem to be the one with 'head in asshat' syndrome".

Interesting comeback. Once again, you prove Prager's thesis. Your self-righteous smugness is odious, and, as others have pointed out better than I, so is your hypocrisy, as one who has never served.

You are uninformed, but this does not prevent you from being quite the little opinion-maker. Please cite one, just ONE example, from all of my posts which confirms your assertion. Perhaps then logic can trump blind emotion.

Take your time. I can wait.

Prager article re preemptive war
I agree with Dennis Prager on the justice of preemptive war. But lets be honest here, Iraqis are not killing other Iraqis primarily because of the U.S. presence, but rather because of the long held sectarian differences which were suppressed under Saddam's brutal dictatorship.

Most people think that if the U.S. now quickly leaves Iraq the sectarian violence will escalate, not diminish.

Really were WMDs -- Best kept secret
One of the best kept secrets of our time is that there really were WMDs in Iraq. A WMD, by definition, requires three elements: 1) the means of production, 2) the means of delivery, and 3) an inventory. The first and second elements are much more critical than the third. Inventory can always be produced if you have production capability. But production and delivery usually require significant technological development.

A WMD is distinguished in that these are difficult to manufacture. These are not just large explosive charges. Nor can they simply be made in a bathtub or cement mixer truck. Unlike conventional explosives, chemical and biological agents require very, very special handling. Further, the means of delivery is also difficult, both in the container and in the logistics of delivery. Even the Media has revealed time and again that Saddam was spending a great deal of effort in developing the production and delivery technologies for these kinds of weapons. The truck-based biological weapon factory is a case in point.

Consider the danger in a simple truck driving to a warehouse in Israel, or being shipped to New York City. The equipment inside the truck could easily be explained as something benign. No biological agents or medium or canisters need to be included with the truck. After the other production materials are delivered to the warehouse, then production begins within the target area. This is a mobile factory. Just before the local attack is made, the truck is moved to another city and production restarts for a second attack.

Are you aware that the media has reported that Saddam had a factory that was in production of very small particle size fertilizer? Small particle size is irrelevant to a fertilizer, but is critical to anthrax as a weapon. That factory could have been switched to anthrax production in a matter of weeks. And the factory was producing a type of fertilizer that was useless for crops in the Middle East. This factory itself was a WMD waiting for the go-ahead.

Saddam was also developing delivery systems such as unpiloted aircraft, both large and small. Including aerial spraying technology. Not to mention missiles. These are not technologies that are useful in anything but weaponry (crop dusting in the Middle East is just crazy). There are even more examples that have been reported in the Media.

Finally, why in the world would Saddam be so stupid as to start building inventory before he was ready to use it. Biological and chemical weapons have shelf-life problems and high storage costs. Why risk a secrecy leak until the last minute? Why wouldn't he wait until the embargo was lifted and he was under far less scrutiny? The embargo was already weakening, with expectations of total removal within six months (by European pressures). So the fact that he had not gone into production does not reduce the danger posed by his production and delivery programs.

Malaysia, for example, is not considered a WMD threat simply because there is no large-scale program there to develop the technologies of such weapons. Iraq was such a threat.

In conclusion, production and delivery technologies are sufficient to conclude that Saddam really did have WMDs.

Why does the WMD factory have to be in actual production before you consider this to be a very real threat? Isn't the capability of production enough? Or is imminent capability sufficient?

11hotel
In 1938, France had a larger army, more tanks and the tanks were superior to German tanks. They had a large fortification complex I can't spell the name of and LOST PUBLIC SUPPORT DUE TO INITIAL CASUALTIES.
France alone could have beaten Hitler.
Russia had a bigger army BUT;
Stalin had just came to power and made sure the generals who helped him did not change their minds by EXECUTING EVERY ONE OF THEM.
Therefore Russia's superior army was leaderless!
This is why Hitler had it so easy to start with.

We The People vs. Politicians
Does anyone know of a politician that actually knows or cares who we are except at election time.

America has the power to protect our borders, if politicians wanted to.

America has the power to "fight to win" the terror wars, if politicians wanted to.

Politicians could fix social security, if they wanted to.

Politicians could reduce the size of government, if they wanted to.

Unfortunately, most politicians regard "we the people", as too stupid to know what is good for America. They only want to hear from us at election time. They don't hold themselves to the same standards as "we the people" are held to.




We attack to the rear at our peril
When it comes to war, history is our best teacher. From it we can see what would have been the result of an “attack to the rear” policy. It’s not a hard in-depth thought process to see where we are verses where we would have been, had we “attacked to the rear.” This is especially true with WW II. Had we have listen to Mr. Lindbergh and his ilk the West coast would be speaking Japanese and the East coast would be speaking German.

Since WW II, some argued that Hitler had no plans to attack the United States, an argument which had no merit. Some argue that the Japanese only wanted to dominate the Far East, yet again, an argument which has no merit. And today, Linberghites argue that the terrorists attacks are our fault therefore we must “attack to the rear.” Now that’s an argument even an ameba can see through. Captured documents tell us we are winning this war but our fearless leaders in Congress on the left tell us we are not. Believe the lie and you may just die.

You argue/debate the pros and cons of going to war, before the war. You argue the pros and cons of the war, after the war. You analysis the mistakes, make adjustments and move on. YOU DO NOT argue/debate the war during combat. Why, because you kill your own and give aid and comfort to the enemy.

The Murthas and Kerrys of this country have abandoned their fellow solders in time of war. The oath is a lifelong commitment but their oath means nothing to them. The democrats are now in power. We are just now beginning to see the result of tossing out the baby with the bath water. If we leave Iraq in its present state, all will have been for not. The result of attacking to the rear will be a second AQ nest which will have to be dealt with later, the conflict of which will make past wars look like a walk in the park.

History will not look kindly upon this generation.

excuse me.
rabbit hole.

JackH -- Your history is off
You say:

Iraq is not a real country, but an artificial confederation of inherently hostile groups. Sunnis aren't really targetting themselves, nor are Shiites. No, it isn't a civil war, but it may have been foreseeable.

But the same COULD be said of Germany. It was an artificial construct of previously antagonistic protestants and catholics, as well as any number of regions which were traditionally hostile to one another. Don't believe me? Tell a 1938 Prussian he was just like a Bavarian.

In addition, the "Germany" we occupied included annexed Austria, as well as the Sudentland, Wartheland, and a number of other conquered terriories. As the Nazi government itself said, many of the irredenta volkdeutch were could not even speak german and associated more closely with their previous nations than Germany.

So, though Germany did eventually come together as a relatively unified nation, don't forget some of Europe's bloodiest wars involved internecine "German" conflicts, and even during the early years of the Nazi regime the various Lander were violently protective of local perrogatives and suspicious of any claimes (especially by Goering and the Prussian government) of authority over them.

Whatever other differences exist, it is not the heteogeneity of Iraq which makes them so different from other occupations.

(Lastly, there is Sunni on Sunni and Shia on Shia violence. Attacks on recruiting stations, etc. are not finely tuned enough to make religious distinctions.)

NoSpam John
The left would require huge warehouses full of WMD to keep them quiet. They also ignored the WMD and weapons that weren't supposed ot be there that were discovered.

Unfortunately your post, albeit very informed and educational, fell on blind eyes.

GREAT comments today!
ArticPara85, James and Nee!! You guys are right on the ball! I only wish I could do a more detailed discussion with you guys to get on my blog. That's the point I'm trying to get out, and I'm glad to see it. Would any of you have a problem with me using your statements?

I'm sure you guys may have studied this during your tenure in your branch of service, but it's interesting to note that even in 1938, at least FDR saw the signs on the wall. We started building up our military ahead of time. So why is it that at a time where the US is truly facing a threat, we continue to DOWNSIZE our military?

Furthermore, for all of you that want to get me started on other points, why do you cry for terrorists' rights when they are given equal (and in some cases more) rights as OUR MILITARY! If you doubt that, read the Military Commissions Act of 2006. After that, I suggest a copy of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. If you need me to, I'll send the link... again...

Monty - the point that ArticPara85 was trying to make is while you have the freedom and the government-given right to free speech, you should recognize that that right has to be protected. Your father has done that, as have many others that are trying to reach out to you. So why didn't you? If you truly love your country and feel it is worth protecting, isn't that worth defending?

That is the exact reason I joined the USAF, and I gave part of my life to the United States. It's not to the polticians in office or the current policies - the military is there to protect US. The idea that politics and military go equally together is not entirely true - if you served, you would know where that line is.

Kimberly - I have to LAUGH at your comments that Saddam was "toothless." So shooting at our planes in the No-Fly zone was "toothless" too? Having SCUDs that he shipped to North Korea was "toothless" too? So perhaps you continue to believe that you have all the information that the government has, or that ANYONE in particular had that info. That's purely naive, and I would be happy to explain why if you like.

And one other thing - You should now wear the hat of shame on your head for trying to attack ArticPara85 for continuing to want to really support the troops by being out there with them! Are you in Iraq? Did you go out there? If not, what gives you credibility to question his motives? They offer that money because of the dangers that people face out there. But again, I bet you think they're out there sitting in a tent, without a care in the world, simply cashing a fat check. As I have suggested before to you and others, perhaps it's time to get more information from the people over there, rather than trying to contain your information to your usual sources.

The point (to my understanding) is this: Once you are in the military, it is your responsibility to defend the constitution. Once we have set out to do something, there is a fine line that needs to be drawn where politics get involved in military action. We drew that line well in WWII, arguably well/decent/poor in Korea. We skewed that line in both Vietnam and Iraq, where we faced an enemy that is not like the enemies we have faced before.

The next global war is not going to be like we saw with WWII, an imperialistic army starting in one area trying to simply spread out from its base. The next global war will be pockets in all areas of the world, trying to start a new war on too many fronts and trying to use multiple fronts to defeat us. THAT is the war on terror. The only way to ever stop that from coming? Being proactive about it. But I guess that not enough people consider that maybe, just maybe, Iraq is a testing ground for what they plan to bring here? If you really, truly think that they will be content staying in their own piece of land - that too is naive.

I'm sorry for the long post, and I hope it doesn't offend anyone. But seeing some of the cheap shots taken today on this thread is simply not right. Thank you all for your time.

ouch...
Kimberly got smacked around... I kind of doubt that she has the intellectual fortitude or honesty to back up anything she, or Phylo for that matter, ever says. To them, reality is something to be avoided at all costs, and we should instead embrace our emotional/irrational sides. Twisting the facts are just part of their nature. Sometimes, Phylo just resorts to lying... it is a fact that Saddam did NOT allow UNFETTERED inspections prior to the war. That's why Bush finally said enough is enough, if the U.N. doesn't have the balls to back up a single one of their resolutions, we're going to do it for them.

Dangerous Delusion
Reading through these posts, it is obvious that many people equate non-support of the war in Iraq with cowardice, as in, if someone does not support fighting in Iraq then they would countenance nuclear bombs in NYC.

I think it is a stretch to say that Americans against war in Iraq would be uniformly against fighting to prevent or counter a direct attack on the U.S. Hence, um, Afghanistan, which was viewed as a direct response to a direct attack, and which was widely supported by Americans and the world.

So, give it a rest on that point. I can speak for me. I think Iraq is a disaster, and will continue to be a disaster. If I could rewind history, I would have supported every effort to keep us out of there. However, if someone attacks the U.S., then yeah, let's go to work. We can't do everything in the world, as evidenced by the fact that we can't even pay for Iraq (a.k.a. "a front in the global war for our survival") without going into debt.

Kimberly..
You should be ashamed of yourself for attacking Articpara... by doing so, you attacked every single one of our troops and our contractors that are working, fighting and even dying every day to make this world, and our country, safer. Your hatred of all things American is beyond the pale. From where does all the self-loathing stem?

USA Believer
Maybe people shouldn't make points that need to be reworded and redefined in order to make sense. I don't think anybody would claim that the right to free speech doesn't need protection. So why do people like ArticPara85 insist on shouting down people who disagree with his view of the uses of the military? Is he for free speech or not? If he is, then maybe he shouldn't act so begrudging about it. It's not like he was drafted, right? Or is it sort of like being for free speech while not supporting it (like being for the troops while not supporting them)? (Obviously, I'm not actually asking you to speak for him.)

OK, r0-d2...
I have to admit, this is by far one of your most informative points. I want to take a moment and thank you for your service, as well as thank you for wanting to share that. Regardless how we may agree or disagree, this new point has in itself given a few more points of credibility to you.

Now, would you be willing to provide some other information so that I can better understand your position? I can think of some good examples such as time served, location, in general what you may have done both in the military and afterwards (A clearance in your context may not give anyone a better insight into what you did - many people have clearances). And just to clarify - you volunteered, not drafted, correct?

The best question I can think of: Do you still believe in the mission of our military (To support and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic)? And politics put aside, how do you feel our troops are doing? If you want, jump over to my blog and you can mention it there. I would be happy to further debate you on this, as I have said before.

Thank you for your time.

Donaldd....
You know what? You're absolutely right on the fact that we need to work with other countries!

...But what happens when other nations simply do not want to address the issue, or they have some other end game? While the decision of going into Iraq can be debated up and down for lifetimes, we need to figure out how to fix it. The situation we faced before going into Iraq is the same that we face with Iran and North Korea - not all of the international community is going to get on board with fighting terrorism. And so what do we do then?

This will be the decisions faced by not only this administration, but future administrations as long as the international community is not willing to get behind this effort to contain terrorism. Glad we could agree on something after all.

Debate
At least Kimberly started with statements. Too bad that before they got refuted (my opinion) here, there was so much name-calling and insinuation (some of that by Kimberly herself).
And let's not make military service (now, even draft status!) a prerequisite for participation in this national debate.

General Sada and WMD
As MG Sada has pointed out in print and interviews, Saddam did have WMD and he secreted them out of Iraq while the UN was dissimulating and issuing empty threats.
Saddam took advantage of a dam breaking in Syria to announce he was mounting a "humanitarian" aid effort. He took two jumbo jets, stripped out the seats and loaded them with ... [tah dah!] aid for the Syrians. But it wasn't food and medicine, it was WMDs. 56 flights and two truck convoys got the WMDs to the Bekka Valley and safety. Before this, he had contracted with the PRC to build an atomic bomb for him where it would not be found by our military or UN Inspectors.
Sada was Iraq's second hightest Air Force officer and knows what happened.

Dave...
Obviously you are not reading my posts correctly, nor do you read the other posts. The poster that you are mentioning, r0-d2, had not previously mentioned his military service yet criticized military affairs. I recognize the difference between military and political/national affairs. If you have a problem on where I draw that line, please feel free to let me know. I'm happy to discuss that.

Why I asked these details from r0-d2 is because I genuinely hope to get a better understanding of his point of view. I don't make it a prerequisite for military service to discuss military affairs, but it sure seems uneducated if you don't present any education or previous experience in the matters discussed. Such an example that I can think of is being taught international law by a doctor. I respect that he wanted to provide this information.

Kimberly has brought up her points as well, and they have been discussed on a near daily basis. But again, it would serve to provide insight as to her opinion to help people understand why she feels that way. To this point, she has been doing that. She has taken the time to cite references and they get debated. That's the point of the discussion.

Dave, if that message was intended to me, perhaps you have not seen enough information about me yet. Click on my name to see my blog, where there is additional information. Or check out my various other posts on Townhall. Again, there are no prerequisites - but education on the issues is always a better thing to present than lack thereof.

Thank you for your time.

Its about blame not consequences
The only thing liberals are interested in doing (and its demonstrated very well in this thread) is place blame. I firmly believe they think as long as they're not "blamed" for the "quagmire", then it doesn't matter what happens in the middle east.

Its the mommy/daddy party syndrome- blame is what matters. The democrats can ignore the war and place all of the blame on the president- and they've been developing this argument for 6 years- its the very reason they spend hours and hours rehashing the Iraq arguments, even though a majority of democrats saw the exact same intelligence that the president saw and voted accordingly. However, by ignoring who voted for what and focusing on Bush's alleged mistakes, in their mind, they are now completely off the hook. Thats why they don't mind screaming "failure" and "quagmire" b/c though it IS their country thats at war, its not their party. Again, as long as they have someone to blame, they're happy. The problem with this mentality is that being "blamed" is not the worst thing that could happened- being nuked is. Fortunately for them, even if jihadists level a major city in the next few years, dems will blame Bush for "creating new terrorists"- like hatred of america is a new thing /boggle

So as long as the dems have a scapegoat, whatever happens, they don't much care. Complete breakdown in the middle east after we leave Iraq ? Bush's fault. Nuclear Iran ? Bush's fault. Nuclear North Korea, Bush's fault (this one is my favorite because of the sheer degree of untruthfulness involved). So even if the United States is attacked, they'll care only enough to use it for political advantage. THey've been doing it for years, its not going to stop anytime soon.

However
If we had attacked in 1938 we would have had a lot of problems. My uncle was in the National Guard at the time and they didn't have real rifles or machine guns for training (the Army was very short on them as well) Thet used broomsticks as drill pieces and the machine guns were cobbled up from lumber and didn't look as good as the toys that were on the market. Army trucks had signs that read "TANK" on each side. Springfield Armory had developed the Pederson device to convert the 1903 Springfield into a semi-automatic but the pacifists forced the military to dump them and their ammo into the ocean. Our guys at Bataan could have used them. The Navy's main torpedo bomber -- the Douglas TBD -- was already obsolete and their latest fighters -- the Brewster Buffalo and Grumman Wildcat -- were nearly so. The Buffalo proved to be no match for the Zeros because of ceiling limitations. The Army's main fighter at the time was the Curtiss P-36 -- not a bad plane but not good enough although it gave a good account of itself (along with two P-40's from Hickam) at Pearl Harbor flying out of Haleiwa. Our top brass was still thinking WW1 strategy and pooh poohed two mock attacks that the USS Saratoga participated in, the second of them at Pearl Harbor in 1938 that again caught everyone by surprise. The Japanese took note, though, and converted battleship shells into aerial bombs.

We were in too bad a shape to have attacked then.


The end times are upon us
Reading through all the postings only reinforces my beleif that most people are just as perplexed as can be as to how to stop what they see happening in the world, but they refuse to acknowlage that these are the signs of the End Times prophesied in the Holy Bible indicating the soon return of Jesus Christ because that means they would be forced to either make him their Lord and Savior and repent of their sins, or be left behind when all Hell breaks loose in this world. And when the Anti-Christ appears on the seen these people will think he has all the answers and follow him and accept his mark. It will be the answer they have been looking for, an end to all the intolorant religions to stop all the terrorism and the threat from nuclear weapons. Oh the fools, get right with God and accept his son Jesus Christ before it's to late, there isn't much time left.

Kimberly...
While I understand your comments were directed mainly towards suirad, I would like the opportunity to present an opposing view to those you presented:

"I responded in kind to Articpara for attacking the left - of which I am firmly part of - and our support of the troops - which I take quite seriously."

OK, despite the "sexing up" of your messages as you listed below, your point was that you wanted to reply to his comments. Certainly no one here is going to refuse you that right, although your points or your method may be disagreed upon.

"The only concession I will make regarding Artic is that the actual contractors are mostly fodder for those who finance them and send them into harm's way without proper equipment (think the Fallujah Blackwater contractors who were sent in without maps or proper armor) - just like this administration has done to our military troops."

I hope you equally realize that this was talked about by both military members and contractors. (Again, I would suggest checking out the Stars & Stripes newspaper and the letters to the editors, they sometimes have good points of information) The military did not have armor developed that really was needed to prevent casualties - it has only been developed since we have been in Iraq as the need presented itself. Why didn't the military think about this before then? Because we haven't seen a use of IEDs and explosives to this extent before, in my opinion. Most of the armor provided was designed for conventional warfare, not the type that both troops and contractors are facing in Iraq. But that's the responsibility of military leadership; while there is a connection to the administration itself, the administration is only the proposers of funding and budgeting of federal funds for the DoD as well as the final signatory authority - Congress is the one that passes it before it gets signed into law. These are some of the "compromises" that got made to get a defense spending bill passed. I highly recommend taking a look at the spending allocated for 2007. (Be aware, it's 351 pages though, but it's very detailed)

"But to be a contractor, one must be aware that the pay is much higher than traditional military pay for the same jobs in a combat situation - whether it involves driving a truck, serving food, re-building or actual combat. And that disparity among contractor's pay and military pay is a source of contention. And, in my estimation, equates to disrespect for our troops."

I would again suggest looking at the defense budget. If you feel troops deserve more, contat your elected representatives. Those are also set in reflection of the authorized budget approved by Congress and signed by the President. Contractors, on the other hand, do not have that option. They have to offer competitive wages so that people want to work over there and help. As you have been so keen to point out sometimes, most people would not be jumping at the opportunity to work in Iraq. To ask these contractors to give pay equal to what they could earn in the US or equal to troop levels - the hiring pool would not likely pull the type of people that anyone would want to support the US military out there.

"Artic knows he is paid alot more than our troops who would or are doing the same job - and with that higher pay comes also the fact that contractors are undermining efforts in Iraq. They are accountable to no one, they can kill civilians without recourse (think Ken Starr going to bat for Erik Prince and his lot), they can intervene in situations where our troops have no say over their actions (Fallujah, again)."

I know several individuals working as contractors out there, and I can guarantee they are held accountable. While I do believe the ROE is different for contractors than military, the thought that contractors can "kill civilians without recourse" seems pretty unrealistic. Far be it for me to think I'm the definitive answer on this though - so I'll try and read about the examples you provided. If you have links to sources, I'll look at those too.

"The result is an Iraqi citizenry that does not know the difference between the "civilians" and the troops, are suspicious of both because of actions from the contractors, and they know that there is a faction of Americans on their soil who are not held to the same high standard - or what was once a high standard before Bush gutted it - as the military."

OK, so you would like to see contractors held accountable to the same standards as the military members, at the least. So then who decides those standards? The State Department? Or the contractor?

"This is a privatized group that PROFITS FROM THE WAR. These profiteers have a vested interest in war and are lining their pockets at our troops expense as well as those who are signed on as contractors."

So you have your opinion. Would it be better for those jobs to stop being privatized and have the military do those jobs again? Maybe, but the current troop end strengths authorized by Congress would need to be adjusted for it.

"Now, how is profiteering supporting the troops? How is pointing this horrific fact regarding opportunistic war profiteers hurting anyone but those who put these disgusting parasites in a position to make tons of what essentially equates to blood money? Artic may be a contractor working "with" the troops, but his criticism of the left falls pretty flat. So does yours, Suirad."

As I remember liberals teaching me this, it's time to put into practice separating the individual from the group. Not everyone is there for the reasons you suggest. Some people get approached by these companies as they are leaving the military as well. I will say I was one of those people. But what I found by asking questions was that there was a difficulty in finding people that would be willing to sacrifice - time away from their family, the safety of working outside of a combat zone - to do these jobs. So the question remains - if those contractors weren't there, how would the job get done? More military? I doubt there are many people willing to volunteer to go out there and support the military and the efforts in Iraq. Part (not all) of that can be contributed to criticism of Americans even being in Iraq, largely by the left. So there is some valid criticism there - and perhaps a few questions that may still be unanswered.

Thank you for your time.

More questions than answers
Yes, the war is not going well in Iraq. The real issue is "what do we do now?" Everything else is for the historians. If we do "x" what will likely happen? If we do "y" what will likely happen? If you have other options, what are they? Be as specific as possible. There is a lot of Islamic fundamentalist violence around the world. A lot of it is directed at nations other than the US (check out terror bombings in India, though the MSM is ignoring it). What are the consequences of negotiating with people to whom it is no matter if you are dead or alive? How do you fight a religious war you didn't want to be invited to?

MyOpine
"In 1938, France had a larger army, more tanks and the tanks were superior to German tanks. They had a large fortification complex I can't spell the name of and LOST PUBLIC SUPPORT DUE TO INITIAL CASUALTIES."

Its name was the Maginot Line and was on the border with Germany. However, the Germans didn't try to cross it, preferring to go around it through neutral Holland and Belgium. And taking their usual political and religious prisoners as well. That maneuver demoralized the French and, even though they had the largest land army in Europe, they surrendered in a few weeks. A wag at LIFE mag called the French strategy "sitzkrieg" -- "sitting war" -- and it was appropriate.

Russia's purge of the Red Army had another effect: when they attacked Finland the Finns, with their own weapons backed up their army and held off the Soviets for three months. (An interesting aside: the Finnish air force provided the finest hour for the Brewster Buffalo because aircraft were used mostly for ground support and the Buff gave a good account of itself.)

Hitler wound up squandering his advantage, skimping on supplies and clothing. A former co-worker who had been a Luftwaffe mechanic in a Stuka squadron on the Russian Front described what it was like there; no wonder the German generals tried to kill Hitler. I had just finished reading Rudel's book, "Stuka Pilot" and my co-worker enjoyed discussing it with me.


Prader's Blindness
Prader willfully ignores the obvious. Everyone except the hawks in the administration understood the potential nightmare and chaos which would follow the immediate military battle.

As Colin Powell said at the time, if we break it, we buy it.

President Bush (and Mr. Prager) willfully ignored the reality of Sunni v. Shiite v. Kurd ambitions. They willfully ignored the reality of a majority alligned religiously and culturally with Iran and Syria.

Preemtive war makes perfect sense when we are immenently threatened. We were not with regard to Iraq. But the real issue is the President refused to acknowledge and think through what our strategy would be after Sadam fell.

Instead, he took Cheney's rosy view that the unified Iraqi's would shower us with candy and flowers.

Kimberly--SSDD
Kimberly,
Again, you want it both ways. The troops definitely deserve more money, but the jobs need to get done nonetheless. At least we have the option to fill in the blanks. Our troops don't have that mindset you do. It is not disrespect because someone is earning more money than they do for the same job. Duty, Honor, Country in a nutshell. Libs are the only ones screaming about profit at the expense of the troops. Is anyone surprised?
Again, Kimberly, war is messy business and I daresay if you had experienced mortar attacks or were under fire it WOULD be you who says,"um scuse me, "is it okay if I shoot?" And before you could save your own A**, you'd be in a permanent dirt nap state. Get Real. I can't even believe it. You want accountability for killing,now? It is a war for crying out loud...let's go negotiate with the terrorists and establish daily quotas for all the killers out there, Iraqi and others, hey? It'll be all the quotas libs seem to love and forget reality.

Terrorists don't care about the Geneva Conventions...which is what you left-thinking people want to believe-- that terrorists can negotiate (and not dress like civilians so they can confuse Iraqi and US troops, and then oops! cause "unnecessary killings") To which the MSM will gladly defend terrorists and not US roops.

Kimberly #2
See, while I'm writing a reply to another comment, trying to debate the topics with you, you post another message:

"Toothless is relative regarding Saddam and WMDs. You know very well that what Bush was pedaling in the lead up to the Iraq war was a much more dire scenario than shooting at a planes. Come on, it's time to move along with your tricycles, guys."

I was only giving very basic examples. You know what Kimberly? I can think of at least a dozen posts that you have made on the same point - and an equal amount refuting that point and proving that there was evidence of WMDs. I guess you're not satisfied with the other information provided to you. At what point would you finally confirm that there was truly justification with regards to WMD to go into Iraq? So then why, WHY do you feel Congress passed the Authorization for Use of Military Force in Iraq in 2002? And it wasn't narrowly approved either:

Roll call for Senate:
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

Roll call for House:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2002/roll455.xml

Text of the authorization:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html

"Are you sooooo desperate to legitimize the "toothless" Bush administration that you must rehash the debunked over and over again? It's because of this obsession that they accidentally put secret intelligence on how to build a nuclear bomb on a website just to appease this nonsense. Like giving matchsticks to a toddler to keep them busy and out of their parent's hair."

Obviously, you confuse me with being a Bush-bot. That means you didn't read my blog or you're being ignorant of the information I have provided to you. Again, isn't it liberals who say that stereotypes are bad, that you should treat everyone as an individual? I don't agree with all of the actions by the Bush administration (as I have mentioned before), but in the same manner that you provide your opinion out there I present mine. So now that we have determined that we will agree to disagree, we can move onto other things. How do you feel that the situation in Iraq as it is now can then be resolved?

Other points...
Windy Wilson brings up a point that is quite true. Thanks for bringing that up.

Linkenjulie - Regardless of what was said after the fact, the votes were given for the authorization of use of military force in Iraq. Do I personally feel that we were in impending danger from Iraq? Absolutely - in the same manner that we are also in the same danger from North Korea, Iran, and many other countries and ideaologies as well. But my question is this - if all those people are second-guessing their decision to give authorization before, why did they not realize the responsibility it meant by giving that authorization?

Nee - Agreed. The ROE given for Iraq are extremely difficult for the troops to accomplish anything out there. I personally believe this is also a contributing factor to the casualty rate in Iraq. About the Geneva Convention - well, it's sad to know that because we decide to take the higher ground, we leave many open holes for those that wish to see us dead available to exploit.

A Question for Repubs/cons On Iraq....
In the past few weeks prior to and after the midterm election I have heard repeatedly from
President Bush and Republican leaders such as
Sen. McCain and fomer Defense secretary Rumsfield that if.

"The U.S. sets timetables for redeployment of U.S. military forces from Iraq it will be disastrous for the Iraqi People and the middle east and the security of the U.S."

My question therefore is:

Why do you as repubs/cons have zero faith that the Iraqi military and police force CANNOT defend
the Iraq Nation and quell and defeat the Insurgency without U.S. assistance and exactly why would it be disastrous to set timetables for redeployment?

ARTIC - Thank you for your service!
___ No good deed goes unpunished or unquestioned by the people suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome. It's worth remembering who the critics are and what their agenda is.

___ Our entering WW2 was fiercely opposed by the main stream media UNTIL Hitler turned on Uncle Joe... then it became a good war.

___ Kimberly is working hard for her Tokyo Rose Award. Right there at midnight to get in her(?) BDS post and ad hominem attacks. She(?) is quite industrious for someone using a compass that always points to WRONG!


UN Cease Fire's Mean Nothing
Way back in March of 1991, Powell and Scrowcroft as well as Robert Gates decided they had enough of war, and advised the President to allow Saddam to see another day.Not only did they declare victory, but they forced CENTCOM CIC Schwartzkopf to allow 7 surrounded and intact Republican Guard divisions to withdraw. Despite, the CIA's ongoing op to overthrow Saddam via the Shias, Powell decided that it was better that Saddam survive.

All Saddam had to do was comply with 14 UN points (give up Scuds, WMDs, demilitarize both Kurdistan and southern Iraq, cease supporting terror operations, allow weapons inspectors, etc...). What was signed in March wasn't surrender terms, or peace terms, but a cease fire which bound Iraq, the US, and the UN. The 1991 Gulf War that is, never ended.

It wasn't 72 hours before Saddam unleashed his guards on the Shias and Kurds. Within 2 weeks, the cease fire was essientially broken. But Powell couldn't be bothered. He had parades to attend. By Feb 1993, Saddam shot at allied planes, sent assasins to Kuwait to kill Bush41, as well as hide much of his WMD inventory. He also sent many of his SCUDS to Syria.

From 1993 to 2000, Saddam hosted terrorists (one made it to Queens and assisted in the 1993 WTC bombing; his intel chiefs met with OBL at least 3 times that we know of. The Czechs had Mohammad Atta meeting with Saddam's intel chief in Prague in April of 2001. He also sent purchasing agents to Nigeria to buy yellow cake uranium, and he kicked out the UN Inspectors in 1998.

By 1999, Saddam broke all of his signed resolutions of the 1991 Cease Fire. Why didn't France and Russia respons? We do know that from 1999 to 2003, over 24 billion dollars in Iraqi Petrol money was swindled from the Iraq people (Oil for Food). This was the largest financial swindle in world history, and certainly dwarfs any mismanagement of post war Iraqi funds. French, Swiss, and Russian companies as well as several high level UN bureaucrats got the lion's share of the lute. Despite French and Russian protests and delays, Bush went ahead with removing Saddam. Bush was only doing what his father, Powell, Gates, Baker, and Scrowcroft spelled out in 1991.

If people would actually go back to the Senate Hearing in Sept-Oct 2002, WMDs were not stressed, it was the broken 1991 Cease Fire Treaty that was authored by James Baker and co. Bush hammered this point incessently.

The threat of WMDs was only stressed in Jan and Feb 2003, and was a big mistake, as was the mistake not to invade in Oct 2002. Between Oct 2002 and March 2003, Saddam certainly had time to move his WMD stockpiles to Syria (there are still thousands of pounds of material unaccounted for- we ignore this fact). Also, Iran was able to use that time to send Revoultionary Guards agents to Al Sadr's growing militia. Al Sadr's people murdered the ranking Shia Mullah in Iraq in April of 2003.

Bush's biggest mistake was mission creep. He ignored the obvious problems with restoring order; we should have taken out Al Sadr in April 2003, and made an assault on Shia and Sunni strongholds. Most importantly, Bush should have sent in both spec ops and air assault craft into both Iran and Iraq once they began to interfere. He did none of this. It wasn't Rumsfeld's fault, but Bush's indulgent Wilsonian fantasies that crippled this campagin.

The old Gurad is back. James Baker, and Robert Gates now have the answers. Despite the problem originating with thier leadership, Bush43 has had enough. There will be a new Saddam this time (of the Shia variety), WMDs will return to Iraq, and another Bush will retire.

Left Angle...
In answer to your question, the information I have heard or read from Iraq shows a desire by the Iraqi government for us not to leave yet as they would be in danger. It would be one thing if the people of Iraq, through their government, said, "OK, all of you Americans - time to pack up and go home." Instead, they initially tried to buck the timetables presented by the US and I thought I had heard comments from their government to the extent that it would severely harm any efforts to try and push our way over the Iraqis.

If their government asked us to leave - we would have no choice but to leave. While part of the responsibility is on our shoulders to encourage the Iraqi government to continue to strengthen itself, the government of Iraq can also equally call foul if it feels we are more interested in our own country than really trying to help others. In the end, it cannot be our choice alone. I have faith in them - but do Iraqis as a nation believe that they are self-sufficient yet? Good question to ask though - while the leadership may say one thing, it may not be in agreement with the people of their base. Certainly Democrats are also aware of this fact.

Re: Left Angle
"Why do you as repubs/cons have zero faith that the Iraqi military and police force CANNOT defend
the Iraq Nation and quell and defeat the Insurgency without U.S. assistance and exactly why would it be disastrous to set timetables for redeployment?"

As for the first part of your question, they haven't had time to have enough training to do the job. They haven't had the time to develop officers and NCOs whose job is to actually lead their troops. I was in training for 5 years in a well-established system before I was considered ready...do you think they are that much better natural military leaders than we are? Some of them 'get it' quickly enough, and those are the ones we've established with the autonomous units, but some of them are still in the mindset that they have more to fear from above than they do from the enemy.

As for the second part, one of the reasons I didn't quit my difficult military training when the going got tough was because I always knew that there was a light at the end of the tunnel. If I could just perservere until that pre-established and unchangeable graduation day, it would all be over and I'd be free from the harsh restrictions of that training regimen. Is it really so difficult to see why a timetable for withdrawl...if you will, 'insurgent graduation day'...just encourages them to hold on until the day they know we're going to leave and then they'll be free to do what they want?

Well Leftangle...
My question therefore is:

"Why do you as repubs/cons have zero faith that the Iraqi military and police force CANNOT defend
the Iraq Nation and quell and defeat the Insurgency without U.S. assistance and exactly why would it be disastrous to set timetables for redeployment?"

In two parts:

A. - Because Iraqi (mult. govt. sources), US (mult. govt. sources), & civilian security contractors have ALL, uniformly with in recent weeks said that they are not yet ready to do so and for a number of reasons. This information isn't hard to find. You can even get most (if not all) of it in the NY Times or the Washington Post. And to be specific, what they're saying is the Iraqi govt. is not ready today to do so. It's not that we don't have faith that they can't eventually do so. We do. We're counting on it in fact and have been since day 1. That information has been in newspapers as well for a number of years now.

B. - Set a timetable and the insurgency can go into hiding until the appointed day. No need to even stick their heads up. Wait till everyone leaves - claim victory, and in a PR sense - win victory. Leave the date undetermined and they (the murderers) must keep the pressure up if only to stay in the headlines, or risk loss of PR momentum on their own side. Yours too for that matter. Kinda spooky/weird how your goals are - and have been - aligned with theirs isn't it?

Pretty simple really.

USAB/James: Iraq Military Is Weak?
Since Prez Bush & his administration continue to make comments like about timetables and how they would be a disaster for the Iraqi people, It would be logical to assume that they think the Iraqi military and police force are WEAK AND CANT DEFEND THEMSELVES. It would also seem illogical that it would take 3 years to train them to FIGHT the insurgents. If the Iraqis truly believe in a democratic form of government and western style freedoms they need to stand up and take the ball and run with it.

What I gather is that the Bush administration figures, without really saying it is that the Iraqis really have no real interest in fighting off the insurgency, that if they want to take over they are free to do so, when and if the U.S. leaves. Hell, they are doing it while we are there.lol

homer: that's total bs...
how long do we have to babysit the Iraqi military? Hell either the stand up and fight like men or be run over like a bunch of pushovers.

the insurgency isnt hiding..they are kickin a** and taking names WHILE THE U.S. IS RIGHT THERE.

Did you read about the mass kidnapping today?

The insurgents are hiding waiting for the U.S. to leave to declare victory? ROTFLMAO

YOU REALLY NEED TO STOP LISTENING TO PREZ BUSH & CO.


Left Angle...
Glad to see we agree on a point.

"If the Iraqis truly believe in a democratic form of government and western style freedoms they need to stand up and take the ball and run with it."

This was the point I was trying to make. It's part our responsibility - it is part theirs. But we have to coordinate this with their government. As was mentioned yesterday - international support, such as UN peacekeepers, to take the place of US forces may not be a bad idea. The problem is that any options that I have heard mentioned don't seem good - now we need to figure out which option we choose with the full understanding of the consequences. While people may give leeway about us going into Iraq, there will be no room both in the US and the international community for us if we leave Iraq with major negative consequences.

I'm waiting to see what recommendations come out this week - maybe they will have something new, maybe not. But I think this has brought a good amount of discussion on both parties, and I think that's great. It means while we may not agree with the entire strategy in Iraq, America realizes as a majority that it's something that needs addressed.

No you mindless squirrel...
"how long do we have to babysit the Iraqi military? Hell either the stand up and fight like men or be run over like a bunch of pushovers."

This is why children like you are not allowed to make serious decisions about something as deadly and costly as war. In what way is that question or statement 'in touch with reality?' In what way is that a viable point of view from which to make a decision that affects 25 MIL foreign lives and 300 MIL domestic lives. You are an (I)diot. Definitively.

"the insurgency isnt hiding..they are kickin a** and taking names WHILE THE U.S. IS RIGHT THERE."

They are murdering civilians - women, children and in this case - school teachers - for the purpose of inciting the very media reports you are reacting to and the very rhetoric you are reacting with. Well done toad. You, if you so chose - could accomplish much the same right here in your hometown. This, by any definition, isn't 'kickin' a**' but it does go a long way toward explaning numb choke-sucking rod smokers like you are on the (pro-murdering terrorist, anti-us-soldier side you're on - you simply are incapable - lacking in the capacity to - unable to logically parse - any difference between the murder of soft targets, and 'kicking a**' militarily. At least HALF of all combat casualties - and 75% of civilian casualties have been done in order to motivate invertabrates like yourself to do your job. WHINE as loudly as possible. Maybe somebody - us or them, it matters not - will kill you last. In the meantime, console yourself with your massive body count. You should be PROUD.

"Did you read about the mass kidnapping today?"

Uh yeah. Did you wet yourself when you did?

"The insurgents are hiding waiting for the U.S. to leave to declare victory? ROTFLMAO"

Read again, not what I said. What I said was it would - upon announcement of a withdrawl date - become a viable strategy. As you have a difficult time with the written word, I can understand why this, and the meaning of the distinction it presents, might elude you. Again, see the part about being incapable, etc...

"YOU REALLY NEED TO STOP LISTENING TO PREZ BUSH & CO."

Nooooo.... What you mean is that YOU really need to provide a viable alternative then, and a reasoning that makes it plausibly viable.

Neville Chamberlin Redux
In 1938 Hitler carefully prepared to overrun continental Europe and then move on to Britain.
He had to be very careful not to arouse the suspicions of the British...hence his constant crying about "living space" for the poor German people.
Suckers like Neville Chamberlin listened happily to Hitler's "guarantees" that he would go no futher after each act of German agression.
The British public were overwhelmingly in favor of staying out of war (no matter what the perceived threat).
Only Winston Churchill sounded the alarm and roused the British to begin a half-hearted updating of their military arsenal...and he was called a war monger!