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Good article, though

Jacoby already covered this angle.

Stunned I say!

The thing that gals me about this story is that most of the people that are horrified by Mr. Gibson's statement are the same people who are complaining about how there would be peace in the middle east if only Isreal would quit antagonizing Hamas, Hezbollah and those nifty Palestinians.

Stunned I say!

The thing that gals me about this story is that most of the people that are horrified by Mr. Gibson's statement are the same people who are complaining about how there would be peace in the middle east if only Isreal would quit antagonizing Hamas, Hezbollah and those nifty Palestinians.

Whoops!

Sorry about the repeat posts- darn thing didn't show up after I hit the submit button.

Lydia was right

There IS such a thing as a "fundamentalism" of the unbeliever: "Gimme that old non-religion, it's good enough for me."

If unreasonableness is a mark of the fundy, then materialistic humanism swarms with fundies. They _demand_ that NO other view but their own EVER
be heard in our schools--and then they call that freedom of speech. The humanist fundy is like a man who demands to be the head judge of a beauty contest so he can automatically give the prize
to his own daughter or niece.

Joseph Ravitts

QUIT BEATING THIS POOR HORSE

Let the Mel Gibson story go away already! Write about something people want to hear about. Nuff said already!
Heads Need To Roll LLC

TTSSYF,

I won't argue with you there. Prager's a great writer.

The Measure of His Soul...

Mel Gibson's comments were obnoxious and malicious. And they highlight something that very many people don't want to recognize---that anti-Semitism is a pernicious disease that affects millions of human beings worldwide.

It's probably far more pernicious than Gibson's other disease, alcoholism. So. Was it the booze talking? Don't think so. Many drunks ramble incoherently. Far fewer immediately tirade against Jews (and it always amazes me how anti-Semites instinctively seem to recognize Jews; reportedly, James Mee, Gibson's arresting officer, is Jewish).

Anti-Semitism is a spiritual disorder of the worst kind and the first order. "Christians" fear that our modern culture will erode values, and that Christianity is under attack. Imagine, if you will, a world where people are ostracized by dint of their beliefs, where calumnies are heaped upon them for the mere fact of their being born on the wrong side of the tracks, as it were, a world where those who do the beatings expect their victims to be bear the pain in silence without lifting a finger in defense, and where the rack, the strappado, the stake, and even modern technology has been used for the sole purpose of killing them. Imagine holding firm to your beliefs in the face of all that not for moments but for milennia. Imagine, if you will, the world as it appears to the Jews. The erosion of "Christian" values is as nothing to being turned into wisps of smoke.

I place the word "Christian" in quotes only because at bedrock the teachings of Jesus are the teachings of the Jewish faith. Jesus was a Jew. Gibson says "F*** the Jews" and "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world." Simply substitute "Jesus" for "Jews" in his rant, then.

Gibson himself erodes those values he claims to reverence by his abominable behavior. Is Mel a "nice guy" as Jodie Foster and Patrick Swayze want us to think? Sure he is. Does he have a disease of the soul? Yes, he does. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Mel Gibson's apology is worthwhile for the mere fact of it's being made. It is the beginning of healing, not the end. I doubt very much that Gibson truly understands his own mind or the nature of what devours him from within. When Gibson addresses his disease and takes the measure of his soul then he will be able to welcome himself back into the community. Not before.

Clueless hypocrisy....

Mel Gibson is one of the few celebrities with somewhat conservative views. Naturally, the loony left will take any opportunity to attack him no matter what he says. In this case, what a bunch of self-indulgent hypocrites!

Unfortunately, the MSM puts way too much stock in what the left-wing elitists – the columnists, academia, “Hollyweird” liberals et al -- have to say.

Note: We might all be surprise at the number of Hollywood celebrities who are caught speeding and/or DUI and get off with a verbal warning.

Just goes to show

the left has a greater hate for Christianity than love for Jew practicing Judaism. The left loves Marxists with Jewish bloodlines as both have an equal hate for Christianity and seek to eliminate it from our society.

Trivia question and silver linings

To Prager's brilliant column, I want only to add two points:

What Democrat politician, currently representing the most populous state in the Northeast as its junior senator, is postively identified by three separate (and Democrat) witnesses as having used the phrase "f***ing Jew b******" while cold sober?

And, the silver lining -- at least we have the Left accepting the police version of events as the truth. You won't see any "Free Mel!" bumper stickers any time soon.

Re: Trivia question and silver linings

DocNoleCat: "What Democrat politician, currently representing the most populous state in the Northeast as its junior senator, is postively identified by three separate (and Democrat) witnesses as having used the phrase "f***ing Jew b******" while cold sober?"

I KNOW! I KNOW! Is it Hillary 'I-enjoyed-swapping-spit-with-Sura-Arafat' Clinton?

What? I win?! YAY!

Pick a prize? Okay....hmmmmmmm....I'll take the Chappaquiddick Teddy Bear dressed in the cute diving outfit.

Re: The Measure of His Soul...

JM writes: “Mel Gibson's comments were obnoxious and malicious. And they highlight something that very many people don't want to recognize---that anti-Semitism is a pernicious disease that affects millions of human beings worldwide. It's probably far more pernicious than Gibson's other disease, alcoholism.”

Mel has a way to go, starting with treating his alcoholism. What seems get lost in the conversation is that he is a fallible, fallen human being. Minus the trappings of fame and fortune he is no different than any other poor sinner who stumbles and falls like the rest of us.

Anti-Semitism is very much a pernicious disease directly analogous to cancer. Many non-Jews harbor this cancer as a benign tumor, placed in our subconscious by our parents or by the culture in which we grew up. After all, a child learns to hate others only if he is taught to do so.

However, if triggered to do so, the benign anti-Semitic tumor will, like the real thing, begin to metastasize and grow to murderously lethal proportions - especially if it is nourished by the carcinogins of bigotry, prejudice, irrational anger and deep seated loathing, all of them the spawn of spiritual pride.

I have posted elsewhere on Townhall regarding my take on L’Affaire Gibson. My father, God rest his soul, was an outspoken bigot and racist as well as an avowed atheist who truly hated Jews. That he was well-read, very intelligent and possessed of remarkable debating skills made him all the more dangerous. Born in 1932, he was a product of his generation. His father, an immigrant from France, brought with him the traditional Gallic anti-Semitism that pervades France even to this day. My father recounted the many times when, as a boy, he listened to the old radio shows with his father. My grandfather would laugh hysterically at the antics of Jack Benny, George Burns and Fred Allen, saying “They are so funny, those f**king Jews.” Even my grandmother brought her old-world Hungarian anti-Semitism into the household. At Christmas she would henpeck my grandfather to put a wreath on the front door, explaining that, if you don’t have a Christmas wreath on the door, “people with think you are a Jew, with money in the house.”

This was the environment in which my father was raised. It became part of his everyday thinking in a generation that lent itself easily to racial and ethnic bigotry. Naturally, he passed that thinking on to me from the earliest age I can remember.

I don’t need to explain what it must have been like to be raised by a man such as this. By sheer osmosis his bigotry permeated my psyche and despite my mother’s best efforts to undo the damage it was extensive and irreparable. My thinking became clouded and polluted by it even during my late teens and college years, when most young people are extremely liberal.

I finally began to free myself of my father’s influence shortly after I returned to the fold of the Catholic Church in my mid-20’s. Only after many years of spiritual struggle was I able to subdue the demons of prejudice and hatred. I have since come to develop a deep and abiding affection for the Jewish people, a reverence for Judaism and a fervent support for Israel. Strangely enough, so did my father, whose epiphany came after his mother passed away in 1992 in the gentle care of the Daughters of Miriam, a Jewish-affiliated hospice. From that point until his own death he did all he could to support Jews in general and Israel in particular.

Yet, my father’s demons were never truly exorcised from the house that is my mind, nor will they ever depart unless someone finds a way to physically erase memories. In time, these demons were forced into the mental basement and locked in there by the angels of my better nature. Nevertheless, they still exist and still cry and scream from down below. Most of the time their shrieks are drowned out by my faith in God, and their attempts to escape thwarted by the vigilance of my efforts to live the life Christ intended me to live.

Unfortunately, there are other demons that prowl the house: pride, greed, lust, gluttony, anger, sloth and envy. One or more of these can combine and manifest themselves in all sorts of irrational and often self-destructive behavior.

JM: “So. Was it the booze talking? Don't think so. Many drunks ramble incoherently. Far fewer immediately tirade against Jews (and it always amazes me how anti-Semites instinctively seem to recognize Jews; reportedly, James Mee, Gibson's arresting officer, is Jewish).”

In a sense, yes. It was the alcohol that unlocked the door to the basement of Gibson’s mind. I know this from personal experience. In moments of weakness – when I succumbed to a self-destructive temptation – my father’s demons were sometimes unleashed to wreak havoc and heartbreak. On those rare occasions when I was not in possession of my sober faculties I literally “channeled” my father through his own demons before subduing and forcing them back into the basement. Afterward, I beat myself up in remorse and flagellated myself before those whom I believe I have offended, compelled to accept the guilt and the subsequent punishment for words I would otherwise have found abhorrent and actions I otherwise would never have imagined committing.

I can only hope that those who self-righteously pick up a stone to hurl at Mel Gibson pause for a moment and reflect on the demons locked in THEIR mental basements. How many of us, I wonder, possess a squeaky-clean, well-lit, vermin-free subconscious that harbors not the slightest prejudice or bigoted thought?

I hold Gibson to no higher standard than I hold myself. I have committed far too many sins and hurt far too many people to even consider picking up a stone to throw at him. Rather, I am compelled to echo Christ when He counseled the woman taken in adultery: “Neither will I condemn you. Now go and sin no more”

JM: “Anti-Semitism is a spiritual disorder of the worst kind and the first order.”

I disagree. As I noted above, Pride (in this sense, putting one’s own ego ahead of the will of God) is the mother of all sins and the worst of the seven deadlies because it enables all of them. Anti-Semitism is a social disorder that can assume monstrous and destructive proportions only if the chaos of spiritual disorder prevails.

JM: "Christians" fear that our modern culture will erode values, and that Christianity is under attack. Imagine, if you will, a world where people are ostracized by dint of their beliefs, where calumnies are heaped upon them for the mere fact of their being born on the wrong side of the tracks, as it were, a world where those who do the beatings expect their victims to be bear the pain in silence without lifting a finger in defense, and where the rack, the strappado, the stake, and even modern technology has been used for the sole purpose of killing them. Imagine holding firm to your beliefs in the face of all that not for moments but for milennia. Imagine, if you will, the world as it appears to the Jews. The erosion of "Christian" values is as nothing to being turned into wisps of smoke.”

Throughout the past two millennia Jews have consistently been the targets of countless pogroms and a concerted effort by the Nazis to exterminate them that snuffed out 6 million or more. But let us not forget that Christians have likewise been persecuted, both in the centuries before Constantine, then later in the era of Islamic conquest and finally in the 20th century at the hands of both the Soviets and the Nazis. They continue to be actively persecuted by Muslims in Africa, where tens of thousands have been killed or sold into slavery.

JM: “I place the word "Christian" in quotes only because at bedrock the teachings of Jesus are the teachings of the Jewish faith. Jesus was a Jew..”

With all due respect, JM, by placing the word Christian in quotes you trivialize it and thereby insult those who profess Christianity. Yes, Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew and while Judaism is the mother of Christianity, the child she bore was not Jewish but something that transcended Judaism. While the Torah is certainly part of the foundation of what Jesus proclaimed, He nevertheless went far beyond the Torah, proclaiming Himself to be God incarnate. Now whether He was a liar, a madman or truly the Son of God is a debate for another place and time.

JM: “Mel Gibson's apology is worthwhile for the mere fact of it's being made. It is the beginning of healing, not the end. I doubt very much that Gibson truly understands his own mind or the nature of what devours him from within.”

Perhaps he understands it more than you realize. I know that I do. For Christians such as Mel and me, the cancer with which we have been infected can never be completely destroyed. We and others like us are compelled to spend the rest of our lives diligently administering the radiation therapy of our faith and the chemotherapy of our civility in an effort to keep this disease in remission. For some of us the treatment may take far longer than anticipated, especially if the cancer is lodged deeply in the subconscious. Others will often go to extremes to be cleansed.

I'm reminded of a story I once heard about a Catholic priest in one of the Nazi death camps. He was in plain clothes and housed with Jews but did not have a yellow star on his clothing. When the guards came to bring the next batch for the gas chambers they said that only Jews should come forward. That meant he would be the only one left behind, something he could not accept. When he got up to join them, one of the guards stopped him, recalling that when he entered the camp he was wearing a priest's cassock. The guard said, "You are not a Jew. Get back."

The priest responded, "I AM a Jew as is Him who I serve," referring, of course, to Jesus of Nazareth. In disgust, the guard pulled him foward and led all of them to the showers, where this lone Catholic priest died for calling himself a Jew.

I don't know if the story is true or apocryphal, but it pretty much sums up what I believe. Words are cheap...actions can be costly. In the final analysis, actions and not words are all that matter.

Harry Truman occasionally badmouthed Jews. But in the final analysis, he was a good friend of Israel and stood by her in the dark days after 1948. How many of today's secular Jews scream bloody murder if they sense any anti-Semitism but at the same time they lend aid and comfort to her mortal enemies? Can they not see who the REAL enemies of Israel are? Are their eyes so blinkered and their minds so closed that they cannot or will not see a danger to themselves that others - Gentiles, no less - can so easily see?

The same may be said of Gentiles such as Pat Buchanan, a recrudescent paleo-conservative so obsessed with Israel and the so-called Jewish lobby in the U.S. that he has blinded himself to the infinitely more dangerous menace of Islamo-nazism, which hates Christianity only marginally less than it hates Judaism. Does Buchanan really believe that, having exterminated all the Jews, the Islamists will not then turn their murderous wrath upon all the remaining Christians?

These are truly apocalyptic times and part of me trembles at what I sense is approaching. It's an eerie deja vu and it feels like the world has shifted in time back to the 1930's. The mid-term elections are approaching and if the Democrats (who overwhelmingly oppose Israel) take control of Congress, I fear for both Israel and the Jews. Just look at what is happening in Connecticut. It's like a bad dream. Joe Lieberman, one of the few sane Democrats remaining in a party that has lost both its mind and its soul, is about to be sacrificed on the maniacal left-wing political altar of moonbat Bush-hatred because he supports our efforts to fight Islamo-nazism.

The votes of millions of Jews here in the U.S. will play a pivotal role in this and the upcoming 2008 elections. Here is where my efforts end. Conservative Jews must take the cause to their liberal brethren and bring them to their senses, lest disaster befall all of us.

What we need now is unity and fellowship - and this can come only from communication, understanding and forgiveness. Christians and Jews together now face a common enemy, one dedicated to destroying all of us. We must unite if we are to survive.

As for me, if a Mohammedan should inquire about NemoParticularis, I will tell him... I am a Jew.

Shalom.

The Left vs. Islam

The Left actually shares a great deal in common with Islamic Fundamentalists. Both begrude those with material wealth. Both execuse murderers and rapists as victims. Both will take any position to curry favor. Both are obsessed with power and control.

How else do you explain the utter silence by the Left over the plight of women in the Islamic world, to site but one example? Muslims actually kill their own mothers, daughters and sisters over the mere perception of a loss of honor. In short, Mulsim women have no rights at all.

liberal_dialog...Moron.

So, the NYT is a conservative outfit.

So, the LAT is a conservative outfit.

So, CNN is a conservative outfit.

So, MSNBC is a conservative outfit.

So, CBS is a conservative outfit.

So, ABC is a conservative outfit.

So, NBC is a conservative outfit.

Show me the research, Mr. Baseless Claim.

Jews Shot/Left Angry at Gibson

Prager is right. Chicago Tribune carried 26 articles and columns on Gibson versus 3 articles on Haq.

Re: The Left vs. Islam

Rugged Individualist writes: "The Left actually shares a great deal in common with Islamic Fundamentalists. Both begrude those with material wealth. Both execuse murderers and rapists as victims. Both will take any position to curry favor. Both are obsessed with power and control."

Both are fascist in the true sense of the word.

RI: "How else do you explain the utter silence by the Left over the plight of women in the Islamic world, to site but one example? Muslims actually kill their own mothers, daughters and sisters over the mere perception of a loss of honor. In short, Mulsim women have no rights at all."

Amen. Prager hit the bullseye when he referenced Karen Armstrong's hopelessly myopic analysis of "fundamentalist" Christianity. I once made the mistake of trying to engage in discussion on an abortion rights message board a couple of years ago. Talk about fanaticism! These moonbats truly believe Christians in general and pro-lifers in particular are a far more immediate and dire threat to the existence of the U.S. than ANY fanatical Muslim terrorist group. Islamo-nazism isn't even on their radar screen and in their minds the WTC attack never happened.

Those who did admit the possibility of a threat from the Muslim world quickly added that it was because of our Fundie Christian leadership and our support of Israeli terrorism. The most rabidly vocal of the bunch was adamant in her belief that if a Wiccan (i.e., radical lesbian feminist) were president of the U.S. there would be peace and harmony in the world.

I'm not making this up, folks. This is what many in the moonbat left truly believe. Judging from the steady torrent of bilge spewed by the likes of DailyKos and MoveOn, it would appear that the inmates have begun to control the asylum that was once the Democratic party.

RE: nancy writes:

"Prager is right. Chicago Tribune carried 26 articles and columns on Gibson versus 3 articles on Haq."

You people are incredible.

How many relentless hours did Fox News spend on the Aruba, Halloway murder mystery? Does that mean Conservatives are more worried about vacationers in Aruba than Israel? Does that imply anything at all about Conservatives?

I suggest you look up the word "non sequitur".

Re: non sequitur

Liberal Dialog writes: " Question: Which story has most troubled the Left?" That's a non sequitur if there ever was one.

“Non sequitur” is a Latin phrase that literally means “does not follow.” A legitimate question by its very nature cannot be a non-sequitur. You’ve already started off on the wrong foot.

Liberal Dialog: “Here's a fact. MSM is owned by conservative Corporate America. Since the O.J. Simpson trial the MSM has become more concerned with tabloid trash reporting than journalism.”
Actually what you misperceive as fact is your own opinion, based on the fallacious premise that “corporate America” is necessarily conservative.

A properly functioning corporation looks out for its own best financial interests and is beholden to its stockholders, who rightfully demand a return on their investment. It’s all about the demographics and how well the product manufactured by any given corporation, be it a widget or evening news analysis, sells in a given market. If a media corporation sees the potential for profit in catering to the political left, then it will follow that course whether or not the belief is grounded in reality or based on sound market research. Many corporation have foundered because of stubborn CEOs and directors whose myopia or personal bias drove the corporation in a direction not supported by the market.

For decades the MSM had stranglehold on the transmission and analysis of news and information to the American public. Unfortunately, since the 1960’s, the MSM has consistenly manifested both an active and passive leftward bias. To deny this is to deny reality and express utter ignorance of something as simple as a Lexus-Nexus search.

Starting in the late 1980’s with talk radio, through the 1990’s with cable news channels and continuing into the 21st century with the internet, the monopoly of the MSM was broken as the market has become an increasingly competitive one. Unable to let go of its leftward bias the MSM fell into a steady decline (poor Nielsons for the MS broadcast media together with plummeting subscriptions for the MS print media). As a result, much of the hardcore news reportage has been ceded to the all-news networks and the void filled with pablum that appeals to the unwashed masses, your so-called “tabloid journalism.”

Liberal Dialog: “For example, with few exceptions (the liberal columnist Thomas Friedman being one of the most notable) one only hears conservatives use the term "Islamo-fascism.""

Perhaps because conservatives know what true fascism is and how closely the Islamism of Hezbollah, Hamas and the Iranian mullacracy fir the fascist mold.

Liberal Dialog : “What Prager is missing is facts. The House overwhelming passed a resolution 411-7 supporting Israel in its attack on Hezbollah. Nation-wide polls taken of American support for Israel is hasn't changed: http://www.cbsnews.com…NEW YORK, April 3, 2002 (CBS) Americans' sympathies are with Israel in the current fighting in the Middle East, and most say Israel's recent action sending troops to surround Yasser Arafat’s headquarters was justified, according to a CBS News poll. But many also have concerns and criticisms about Israel's response – with nearly seven in ten believing Israel’s actions will only lead to more suicide attacks. By a margin of five to one, Americans sympathize more with Israel. Fifty-two percent say that, while just 10 percent sympathize more with the Palestinians. Fifteen percent, however, sympathize with neither. Americans reactions today are not much different from the sentiments they have expressed in the past.

How interesting. You trash the MSM (of which the now thoroughly discreditied CBS news organization is a part) and then cite CBS as an authoritative source. Moreover, as is apparent by the remainder of your post, you confuse facts with opinion polls. Indeed, much of your opinion appears to be derived from opinion polls.

The fact that a certain percentage of one group supports a certain thing while another percentage does not support it in no way negates Prager’s observation that there are two distinct groups and one of those groups, broadly identified as “liberals,” possesses a certain mindset. Moreover, Prager defines this mindset on the basis of what leading liberal opinion makers and pundits actually say, rather than poll results that may or may not be skewed by the manner in which the questions are asked.

Liberal Dialog: “Prager is a blowhard. He makes a bunch of baseless claims and concludes with a non sequitor.”

Prager’s claims are not based on polls but rather, what liberals themselves have said and written. His conclusion is anything but a non-sequitur and everything that makes for an airtight argument, supported by facts not poll percentages.

Liberal Dialog: I can make a similar non sequitor argument about Prager. Since Prager seems more concerned about his perception that the liberals are anti-Christian because of perceived liberal reaction to two specific news stories and not the 411-7 vote in the House supporting Israel, he's an anti-liberal; whose baseless hatred for liberals is no different than an anti-semites racist hatred for Jews. But I won't. Because I'm more intelligent than to use a non sequitor and smart enough as a media consumer to recognize one”.”

Indeed, what you wrote is a true non-sequitur. But then, so is your entire post. It is doubtful that you consume anything other than the media and opinion polls that fit your narrow and obviously liberal worldview.

Show me the research!

"Liberal""Dialog" rants,
"BASELASE CLAIM ONE:
" We should be worried about this: The liberal world fears -- and much of it loathes -- fundamentalist Christians considerably more than it does fundamentalist Muslims."

Show me the Pew Research or any research. No research, baseless claim."

See: PERSECUTION, by David Limbaugh; SLANDER, by Ann Coulter. No knowledge on your part does not equal non-existence.

"BASELASE CLAIM TWO:
" We should be worried about this: The liberal world fears -- and much of it loathes -- fundamentalist Christians considerably more than it does fundamentalist Muslims."

Show me the Pew Research or any research. No research, baseless claim."

Repeating yourself does nothing to increase your credibility.

"BASELESS CLAIM THREE:
" This is one more example of the greatest flaw of contemporary liberalism -- its inability to recognize and confront the greatest evils."

Show me the Pew Research or any research. No research, baseless claim."

See: TREASON, by Ann Coulter. No knowledge on your part does not equal non-existence.

"BASELESS CLAIM FOUR:
" So, too, today. For example, with few exceptions (the liberal columnist Thomas Friedman being one of the most notable) one only hears conservatives use the term "Islamo-fascism."

Show me the Pew Research or any research. No research, baseless claim."

Better yet, disprove this yourself with the leftist other than Friedman who DOES use "Islamo-fascism." I know of none, but no knowledge on my part does not equate to non-existence. If the term is commonly used by leftists, it should be a matter of seconds for a scholar of your stature to refute this.

"BASELESS CLAIM FIVE:
"Regarded by the liberal media as perhaps the greatest living historian and commentator on religion, Karen Armstrong "

Now that's just a flat out lie."

Lie (according to Merriam-Webster): "an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive." State the proof that Prager knows or believes his statement to be untrue, and the proof of his intent to deceive.

"BASELESS CLAIM SIX:
"The antipathy toward Christian fundamentalists and conservatives is why Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic statements trouble the Left more than Naveed Haq and the genocidal anti-Semitism permeating the Muslim world." Boy is that a non sequitor."

Observation: Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic statements trouble the Left more than Naveed Haq and the genocidal anti-Semitism permeating the Muslim world.

Explanation: The Left's antipathy toward Christian fundamentalists and conservatives.

This is not a non sequitur. You may disagree with the truth of the observation or the explanation, but regardless of the truth, the explanation is a logical one.

Wrong!

Prager is just wrong. People on the left do NOT minimize or rationalize muslim terrorism - and when students of World relgions compare fundamentlist Christianity with Fundamentalist Islam, they are referring to the basic standards for definition: A literal interpretation of the literature (bible, Torah, Quran) a transcendent god, and the belif that religion should infuse and influence political structure and life to the extent that it sets the laws and ulitmately, the punishments.

Christians

Christians are not worse than those who practice jihad. We don't kill people because they disagree with our religion. We have a right to stand up for our religious beliefs. We may try to change non-believers to be believers in our God. A God who does not tell us to go out and kill because we don't believe in THEIR GOD (although there is only ONE GOD).

One thing really wonderful about the United States is we have the FREEDOM TO BELIEVE OR NOT TO BELIEVE and if a person does not believe they will not be persecuted for it. However, many who do not believe want to change our lives and our freedom of religion
Eddy

Re: Can anyone pleasanswer this question

Justaguy writes: Why are Christians worse than those who practice Jihad, which is the absolute destrucion of all those who essentially disagree? Please answer this. I want to understand the mindest, but am left bewildered.

Though I'm a conservative, I’ll give it a shot. Even though you were hoping for an answer from a liberal, I doubt that you would get one from a liberal for the reasons below:

1. The mindset of liberalism is dominated by a deep-seated anger toward and resentment of authority and may be the result of childhood or adolescent issues involving parental authority, particularly that of a father. For feminist liberals it almost always involves issues that spring from a traumatic experience involving a father, a husband, a boyfriend or some other male figure.

2. This anger causes liberals to draw inward and construct a narcissistic worldview that gives them a comfort zone in which to live with their own anger and resentment. Ultimately this mindset manifests itself outwardly by an intense desire for the world to change so that the liberal feels more comfortable living in it.

3. Because their comfort zone is both fragile and very limited in scope and also because humans by nature have a tendency to gravitate toward those who share their worldview, liberals seek out the company of other liberals, who, in turn reinforce and concretize their mindset, resulting in a thought process that rejects out of hand any factual data that could disrupt or upset it.

4. As a result of this mindset and in spite of their repeated protestations otherwise, liberals are among the most narrow-minded, parochial and bigoted people in our society. Anyone who has engaged a true, hardcore liberal in any sort of debate will understand what I am saying.

5. Christians believe in God and in salvation through Jesus Christ – both of whom are male figures in what liberals perceive to be a patriarchal religion. Because they have deep-seated issues involving authority figures – especially male authority figures – liberals, particularly the more fervent secular humanists, manifestly reject the Christian theology of salvation through Christ. Instead they believe in a form of salvation that manifests itself in an effort to change both human nature and the world so as to achieve Paradise (or Heaven, if you will) here on earth, thus assuaging both their personal anger and guilt while fulfilling their desire to have the world exist as they would have it.

6. Christians believe that human nature is fallen and corrupted – though not totally corrupt, that it is immutable, and that no power on earth can change it – only control it to one degree or another. Liberal secular humanists believe that human nature can be changed, but since there is no God, the only other power on earth that can do it is the State.

7. Liberalism is its own religion and the political process is the expression of that religious faith. Just as Christians tend to view the world through the lens of the Christian faith, so do liberals view the world through the political lens. Political ideology governs the groceries they purchase, what movies they see, what music they listen to and what people they consider friends or enemies. The fact that DailyKos and MoveOn liberals have gone ballistic because Sean Hannity (a devout conservative Roman Catholic) and Joe Lieberman(an Orthodox Jew who nevertheless votes in favor of the liberal agenda 90% of the time) have a personal friendship marked by civility and sincere warmth – in spite of their ideological differences – is a textbook example of this observation.

8. Christians express a certain moral clarity on issues of right and wrong, good and evil, that liberals cannot or will not express because they reject the concept of an ultimate moral authority such as God. In their playbook, right and wrong, good and evil, are relative to each other. Moral authority derives not from God or some other supernatural entity but rather from the political process – ultimately, the will of the people who agree with liberals.

In light of the above I shall now take a shot at answering your question:

1. Christians are geographically closer and culturally more familiar to liberals in our society than Jihadists and therefore make easier targets.

2. Liberals are cowards and bullies who readily attack that which they believe will not respond with equal or greater force. As a group, Christians are infinitely more pacifistic than the Jihadists. At worst, when their most cherished beliefs are publicly mocked and ridiculed, they may protest or conduct a boycott, which they have in the past (The Last temptation of Christ, The DaVinci Code, Andreas Serrano’s “Piss Christ,” the dung-covered icon of the Blessed Virgin, etc.) Given both the frequency and ferocity of liberal assaults on Christianity one can only be amazed that they have not reacted with any more violence than angry op-eds and public placards. On the other hand, publish one cartoon featuring Mohammed and you will face the wrath of the Jihadist community. Film a documentary of the brutalization of women at the hands of Islam and you will, like Theo Van Gogh, get your head cut off.

3. Liberals know that Jihadists are infinitely worse than the worst Fundie Christian. But they don’t care because they are distracted by the quasi-endorphic high they get by bashing the enemy closest to them. Nevertheless it is fun to see the expression on their faces and hear how they caterwaul when the “enemy” (Ann Coulter, for example) gives them a dose of their own venom.

That’s my opinion on the issue, Justaguy. I could be wrong. Now sit back and enjoy the fireworks as liberal lurkers swarm out of the woodwork to respond.

Re: Wrong!

JayJay writes: "Prager is just wrong. People on the left do NOT minimize or rationalize muslim terrorism - and when students of World relgions compare fundamentlist Christianity with Fundamentalist Islam, they are referring to the basic standards for definition: A literal interpretation of the literature (bible, Torah, Quran) a transcendent god, and the belif that religion should infuse and influence political structure and life to the extent that it sets the laws and ulitmately, the punishments."

For starters, you erroneously equate people on the left with students of world religions. Though not nearly all of the former are part of the latter, given the present-day leftward tilt of university-level academia, it's a pretty sure bet that nearly all of the latter are part of the former.

This much is apparent in the statement that immediately follows.In addition to including in your definition of "fundamentalist" the belief that the sacred scripture of any religion must be literally interpreted, you also include belief in a transcendant god. By this definition all of Christianity, Judaism and Islam is "fundamentalist" since all three profess belief in a transcendant god. Those who profess to be Christians, Jews and Moslems but reject the existence of a transcendant god cannot by definition be called Christians, Jews or Moslems but rather, secular humanists. The illogic of your reasoning on this point beggars the imagination.

As for your third point, that a "fundamentalist" religion is one that "requires that religion should infuse and influence political structure and life to the extent that it sets the laws and ulitmately, the punishments" exhibits your profound ignorance of religion in general and history in particular. It does, however, betray your secular humanist agenda. Congratulations.

Re: NemoParticularis

blondieinpittsburgh: "THANK YOU SO MUCH..YOUR COMMENTS ALWAYS SWELL MY HEART AND BRING A TEAR TO MY EYES..THANK YOU FOR MAGNIFICENT INPUT INTO EVERY CONVERSATION."

Makes me almost regret I'm married. One of my other observations is that, as a group, conservative women tend to be very attractive while liberal women, as a group, tend to be, um, let's just say...less-than-attractive.

There are always exceptions, of course, but nothing is less appealing to a man than a liberal harpy on a political rant with an angry scowl on her face - no matter how physically attractive she otherwise might be.

Notice that when Ann Coulter dispenses her own unique brand of vitriol, she generally does it with an engaging and very attractive smile and a sparkle in her intensely blue eyes. Contrast that with Ellen Ratner, Eleanor Clift or Hillary Clinton.

It would be like comparing a woman with silky-smooth legs in thigh-highs and black stiletto heels to a woman with hairy legs in ankle socks and Doc Martins. Nooooooooooooo comparison.

Thanks for the compliment, Blondie. You made my day.

NemoParticularis

YOU ARE SO VERY WELCOMED.

Re: Libertal Dialog

Midfielder writes: "Hey guys, can I use a new word as well? Isn't liberal and Dialog in the same sentence an "oxymoron"? "

Yes, but only if "liberal" and "dialog" are used in the context of communicating with non-liberals.

In the liberal lexicon the word "dialog" is synonymous with "consensus" and is defined as "the verbal act of securing confirmation of the liberal agenda from other liberals."

Jeez...

Does anyone think this is a big deal mostly because an A-LIST MOVIE STAR GOT COMPLETELY WASTED, DROVE HIS CAR, GOT ARRESTED, AND THEN BLAMED ALL OF THE WORLD'S WARS ON THE JEWS.

You can fault the media all you like, but this is among the craziest things that a major celebrity has done in the last decade. Fault our celebrity-obsessed media, to be sure, but if George Clooney had done the same thing don't think the result would have been much different.

An underrated point - say you're a multi-millionaire director and actor. Wouldn't you just hire a cab or a limo to take you home? Who drives in that situation? What an idiot.

Have you ever . . .

. . . been in a verbal altercation with someone and just grabbed out of the bag the meanest thing you could think of, just to p*ss that person off? Could this be the transgression of which Mel Gibson is guilty? Could it be that he truly doesn't believe those things that he said in a drunken stupor? I don't know, and neither do you. We can only believe what we choose based on the evidence and our own prejudices. I never profess to know that which I do not.

Prager over-reacts (again)

The killings in Seattle were local news, committed by a deranged individual -- not part of Prager's conspiracy theories.

Gibson is a worldwide celebrity, thus national news.

Plenty of other news items got more coverage that day than the Seattle killings -- **in the conservative media also**. Were THEY part of the fantasy jihad too? Of course not.

Facts matter.

to Nemo - and facts

I don't think you would know a fact if it gathered up your Pat Robertson tapes and hit you in the head with them.

Generalities and bumper-sticker sentiment? First Prize!!

NemoParticularis over-reacts (again)

Nemo apparently believes that ridicule -- or calling me Mikey -- trumps logic. He says "By that logic ... " to begin an anti-rational non-rebuttal.

I had thought the difference between killings in Israel and Seattle was quite obvious. In Israel there IS a jihad -- comprised of individuals -- devoted to the destruction of Isarel.

Does Nemo believe there is also a jihad -- comprised of many individuals -- devoted to the destruction of SEATTLE? Or just one city block?

Can ANYONE be that confused on what my point is??? (Nobody has to agree with me, but my point should be clear -- the Seattle shooter was acting alone.)

It actually gets worse! Nemo ridicules my statement regarding Prager's "fantasy jihad: ..

"It never occurred to me that fantasies could actually kill thousands of innocent human beings."

In Seattle? How'd we all miss that? Or do you believe the recent Seattle killings were just the first? How many other terrorists are involved in Seattle?

Even funnier -- Nemo says I'm a liberal, based on ... what? That I can think for myself? :-)

I voted Goldwater for President. Still proud of it. And was reading National Review when Nemo's
parents were probably still in diapers. But I'm actually a libertarian (as was Barry) -- who has problems with knee-jerks on both the left and the right.

NemoParticularis over-reacts (again)

Nemo apparently believes that ridicule -- or calling me Mikey -- trumps logic. He says "By that logic ... " to begin an anti-rational non-rebuttal.

I had thought the difference between killings in Israel and Seattle was quite obvious. In Israel there IS a jihad -- comprised of individuals -- devoted to the destruction of Isarel.

Does Nemo believe there is also a jihad -- comprised of many individuals -- devoted to the destruction of SEATTLE? Or just one city block?

Can ANYONE be that confused on what my point is??? (Nobody has to agree with me, but my point should be clear -- the Seattle shooter was acting alone.)

It actually gets worse! Nemo ridicules my statement regarding Prager's "fantasy jihad: ..

"It never occurred to me that fantasies could actually kill thousands of innocent human beings."

In Seattle? How'd we all miss that? Or do you believe the recent Seattle killings were just the first? How many other terrorists are involved in Seattle?

Even funnier -- Nemo says I'm a liberal, based on ... what? That I can think for myself? :-)

I voted Goldwater for President. Still proud of it. And was reading National Review when Nemo's
parents were probably still in diapers. But I'm actually a libertarian (as was Barry) -- who has problems with knee-jerks on both the left and the right.

NemoParticularis over-reacts (again)

Nemo apparently believes that ridicule -- or calling me Mikey -- trumps logic. He says "By that logic ... " to begin an anti-rational non-rebuttal.

I had thought the difference between killings in Israel and Seattle was quite obvious. In Israel there IS a jihad -- comprised of individuals -- devoted to the destruction of Isarel.

Does Nemo believe there is also a jihad -- comprised of many individuals -- devoted to the destruction of SEATTLE? Or just one city block?

Can ANYONE be that confused on what my point is??? (Nobody has to agree with me, but my point should be clear -- the Seattle shooter was acting alone.)

It actually gets worse! Nemo ridicules my statement regarding Prager's "fantasy jihad: ..

"It never occurred to me that fantasies could actually kill thousands of innocent human beings."

In Seattle? How'd we all miss that? Or do you believe the recent Seattle killings were just the first? How many other terrorists are involved in Seattle?

Even funnier -- Nemo says I'm a liberal, based on ... what? That I can think for myself? :-)

I voted Goldwater for President. Still proud of it. And was reading National Review when Nemo's
parents were probably still in diapers. But I'm actually a libertarian (as was Barry) -- who has problems with knee-jerks on both the left and the right.

WHY I SUPPORT ISRAEL (I THINK)

I am an avid supporter of Israel, but I'm not sure why. I think it has something to do with a guy they called Ayatollah.

I supported Israel before the current war (pick one) and rationalized that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East so it deserves and requires our help. True. But democracy is not a compelling reason, because democracies can easily slide into tyranny (Hitler was elected). Perhaps I support Israel because it makes foreign policy sense,i.e., it is in America's best interest. Not sufficient, either. It is probably not in our best interest to defend a small, locally rogue nation when doing so alienates our sources of oil. My support is certainly not religious- I know as little about judaism as I do about the Masons. Maybe it is the Holocaust. Certainly Israel is one manifest attempt to remedy that singular horror- I find it conceivable that the Holocaust wouldn't have happened had the Jews had a homeland. As "transients" Jews were easy scapegoats for zealots. If nothing else (and there is much else) Israel has proven that the Jews are warriors. But I think there is a better explanation.

As a lover of western civilization and admirer of limited democracy, I have always felt threatened by Islamist nations. Call it racist. Call it what you will. I remember when our hostages were finally released from Iran. I recall watching radicals behave like animals in the streets of Tehran. I remember, as a child, watching on television as an Arab woman was beheaded in public for adultery. I think as a proud Westerner, I have a deep-seated aversion to systems of thought that compel human beings to behave viciously and without reflection.

I support Israel because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I think.

http://brainsnotchains.blogspot.com

Re: WHY I SUPPORT ISRAEL (I THINK)

Rogue Historian writes: "I am an avid supporter of Israel, but I'm not sure why. I think it has something to do with a guy they called Ayatollah."

No argument here.

Rogue Historian: "I supported Israel before the current war (pick one) and rationalized that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East so it deserves and requires our help. True. But democracy is not a compelling reason, because democracies can easily slide into tyranny (Hitler was elected)."

Also true. Then again, democratic governments morph into tyrannies only if the citizens cease being vigilant, informed and involved. Those who believe in a a centralized government with the ability to give them all that they want should likewise understand that such a government will soon have the power to take all that they have - including their liberty and their lives.

Rogue Historian: "Perhaps I support Israel because it makes foreign policy sense,i.e., it is in America's best interest. Not sufficient, either. It is probably not in our best interest to defend a small, locally rogue nation when doing so alienates our sources of oil."

From a strategic foreign policy perspective the advantages more or less balance out the disadvantages. Israel is an oasis of pro-western, democratic sanity in a desert of totalitarian barbarism (not to be confused with Barbraism, which is the mindless love of a certain A-list entertainer), so it makes sense to support it. However, the barbarians are sitting on a sizeable percentage of the world's oil supplies. And oil is what makes the powerhouse of American capitalism buzz.

Rogue Historian: "My support is certainly not religious- I know as little about judaism as I do about the Masons."

Heck, that can easily be remedied by reading the Old Testament and then cracking open any decent book on the history and practice of Judaism.

Rogue Historian: "Maybe it is the Holocaust. Certainly Israel is one manifest attempt to remedy that singular horror- I find it conceivable that the Holocaust wouldn't have happened had the Jews had a homeland. As "transients" Jews were easy scapegoats for zealots."

Perhaps the Holocaust may never have happened had the Jews only been given their own land back sooner. Perhaps not. Those who hate and have hated the Jews do so and did so in spite of whether the Chosen Ones wandered the earth or not.

Rogue Historian: "If nothing else (and there is much else) Israel has proven that the Jews are warriors."

Indeed they are. My neice married a Sabra who was a seargent in the IDF. Israeli Jews are a different breed altogether from their brethren in the U.S. - particularly their coddled, self-satisfied, self-hating, liberal brethren in the Northeast. Needless to say, my niece's husband despises them.

Rogue Historian: "But I think there is a better explanation. As a lover of western civilization and admirer of limited democracy, I have always felt threatened by Islamist nations. Call it racist. Call it what you will."

Very well then. I call it common sense grounded in the willingness to call a spade a spade - in this case, the willingness to admit that Islam is not the "Religion of Peace" that the PC idiots insist on calling it.

Rogue Historian: "I remember when our hostages were finally released from Iran. I recall watching radicals behave like animals in the streets of Tehran. I remember, as a child, watching on television as an Arab woman was beheaded in public for adultery. I think as a proud Westerner, I have a deep-seated aversion to systems of thought that compel human beings to behave viciously and without reflection."

For that very reason I suspect you likely have a similar, deep-seated aversion to liberalism.

Rogue Historian: "I support Israel because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I think."

In this case, yes. You are definitely on the right track, Rogue Historian. Stay the course, stave the curse and keep studying your history that you may never suffer the doom prophesied by Santayana.

Rogue Historian

You nailed it! I agree that the creation of modern Israel was a kind of western atonement for the holocaust.

But Germany was the bad guy, so we steal land from Arab-Muslims???? I'd have given them the Ruhr Valley. But then we'd be fighting Christian Germans today instead of Arab Muslims. Hmmm.

We know that war reparation after WWI led to the rise of German fascism. We have yet to realize thast war reparations after WWII led to Islamic fascism.

And just as Pearl Harbor was caused by our support for China, 9/11 was caused by our support for Israel.

We never learn.

The west has been invading those folks since the "Holy" Crusades. The we stole Arab lands to punish Germany? Arabs were the majority population at the time, but we're gonna teach THEM about democracy????

How would WE feel if the UN "partitioned" the
American Southwest, and returned Mexico's "homeland" to Mexico??

Re: Rogue Historian

mikehihn writes: "But Germany was the bad guy, so we steal land from Arab-Muslims???? I'd have given them the Ruhr Valley. But then we'd be fighting Christian Germans today instead of Arab Muslims. Hmmm."

Oh please. Crack open a history book for cripesake. Islam was the creation of a pedophilic desert bandit named Mohammed and did not come into existence until the 7th century. The area of the Middle East that hisorians have tradionally referred to as "Palestine" (which includes all of present day Israel) was given to the Jews by God Himself long before ol' Mohammed molested his pre-teen bride.

Mikey: "We know that war reparation after WWI led to the rise of German fascism. We have yet to realize thast war reparations after WWII led to Islamic fascism."

I take back everything and anything I ever said in a conciliatory tone in a previous post. You ARE stupid. And ignorant. The question now is just how stupid and ignorant you are. Islamo-fascism existed LONG before WW2, WW1, the Franco-Prussian War, the American Civil War, The War for American Independence - in fact, it goes all the way back to the days when Mohammend and his fellow barbarians swept out of Arabia and conquered every territory and province they encountered, including all of the Christian Middle East, all of Christian North Africa and all of Christian Iberia, where they were halted in the Pyrennees by Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732. They conquered Constantinople and would eventually have conquered all of Eastern Eurpoe but were turned back at the Battle of Vienna. But then, being the astute reader of the National Review, surely you knew this already, didn't you? Then again, perhaps not. I'm beginning to smell something...

Mikey: "And just as Pearl Harbor was caused by our support for China, 9/11 was caused by our support for Israel.We never learn."

Yep. I knew it. Sooner or later every Jew hater betrays himself. It's the rank stench of anti-Semitism, made worse by the piles of mental excrement you have been shoveling.

Mikey: "The west has been invading those folks since the "Holy" Crusades. The we stole Arab lands to punish Germany? Arabs were the majority population at the time, but we're gonna teach THEM about democracy????"

Wrong again, moron. The Crusades were launched in an affort to take back Christian lands invaded and conquered by the Mohammedans. Moreover when you speak of Arabs being the majority population you would do well to distinguish between Arab Christians and Arab Muslims. The former were the dominant population in what is now Israel and the entire Middle East, not the latter.

Mikey: "How would WE feel if the UN "partitioned" the American Southwest, and returned Mexico's "homeland" to Mexico??

You are a fake, a phony, a sham, a pretender and a fraud - in addition to being a glittering jewel of historical ignorance, a shining gem of colossal stupidity and a babbling bauble of anti-Semitism. In any case you have lost my respect. No more drinks for you, pal. The gloves are off.

I find it interesting...

...that the shooter in Seattle grew up in the Tri-Cities (Richland, Pasco, and Kennewick). I grew up in Richland a long time ago. This is what Fox News reports, just so everyone is clear.

"The gunman Friday broke into the building and began shooting at employees. Court documents say that while inside the office, Haq got on the phone with 911 operators, identified himself by name and said, 'This is a hostage situation and I want these Jews to get out.' He later added, 'These are Jews and I'm tired of getting pushed around and our people getting pushed around by the situation in the Middle East.'"

"Haq, 30, was raised in the Tri-Cities area of south-central Washington. His father, an engineer, founded an Islamic center there, but Haq did not often practice the religion, acquaintances said."

Maybe he didn't often practice Islam (at least, not where people could observe him), but he most likely learned his view of Jews from his father.

Also of interest is the fact that he went after women, not men. As far as I'm concerned, taking a child hostage to get through security, then shooting every person in sight is a clear act of terrorism. He may have been acting alone, without direct connection to a terrorist cell--but he is still a terrorist because his intent was to create an atmosphere of terror among the people he shot and to punish them for the actions of those he considers his enemies in the Middle East.

Given that his father is an engineer, I'm going to guess his hometown is Richland, as that is the bedroom communitee for the Hanford Atomic Works, and that's where most of the engineers live and work.

I'm very glad I don't live there anymore.

Mike

I am still trying to figure you out....and give you the benefit of the doubt. Clarify something for me please. When you state that 9/11 was caused by our support for Israel are you implying that we should not support Israel?

Re: Mike

HSTeach writes of Mikehihn: "I am still trying to figure you out....and give you the benefit of the doubt."

You can stop trying, my friend. I already figured him out after reading just two of his posts. He's a fraud.

HSTeach to Mikehihn: "Clarify something for me please. When you state that 9/11 was caused by our support for Israel are you implying that we should not support Israel?"

Simply read his most recent posts, Teach.

No surprise here....

Coverage of Mel's drunken hate speech, was definitely more tenacious, ad nauseum, in comparison to the limited coverage of the real hate crime, perpetrated in Seattle.

If our mainstream media, as de facto champions of contemporary liberalism, do not recognize Islamo-fascism as one of our greatest evils, it is because they can not see the evil forest for the trees of their liberal domestic agenda. They view the world, filtered through the prism of promoting their own subjective interests, rather than focused through the lens of providing objective reporting. It is therefore unreasonable to suggest that mainstream media is even capable of portraying world events with any level of accuracy, given the end result of their coverage to be a reflection of their distorted view of reality.

Jews Opinion of Conservative Christians

I am a Conservative Evangelical Christian and every similar friend of mine that I know supports the Jews very much. It is only natural. My guess is that those who think that Christians would be anti-Semitic have seen total imposters. Aren't there imposters in any camp? One of the easiest ways to discredit a movement is to plant evil characters within its midst. Divide and conquer. An old strategy. But like it says in the Bible, "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." God Himself rewards us for supporting the Jews and I always will. Not only am I on their side, but my money talks too, and I support various Jewish charities, as my parents taught me (and I have seen it myself) that Jews are among the most charitable people on earth. God bless the Jews!