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Tuesday, April 28, 2009
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Opposite of Intelligence
by Debra J. Saunders
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The mantra from the left during the Bush years went something like this: The world is not black and white. Sophisticated minds should seek out different, nuanced opinions.

Now that Barack Obama is president, you can say a farewell to nuance. The left chants, "torture doesn't work" -- defining waterboarding and sleep deprivation as torture. Obama has a longhand version of that mantra in his rejection of the "false choice between our security and our ideals."

In Obamaland, somehow there never are difficult choices. From the presidency that was supposed to promote intellectualism comes the argument that waterboarding is immoral -- which is a fair argument to make, until its adds: and it doesn't work.

But common sense tells you that techniques like sleep deprivation, waterboarding and a forced bland diet work, at least some times.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (aka KSM) didn't exactly want to help the CIA. Yet Americans are supposed to believe that asked-nicely interrogations yielded or would have yielded the same information as "enhanced techniques" designed to inflict extreme discomfort and dread?

As I reported last week, the newly released Bush administration memos credited the use of waterboarding and other methods with leading to the discovery of a planned "second wave" attack on Los Angeles and other terrorist plans. But there are contradictions in the official accounts of when that L.A. attack was foiled. At one point, the Bush White House had claimed the plot was discovered and interrupted in 2002 -- the year before Mohammed was captured.

Even if that Los Angeles claim does not stand up -- and we don't know at this point -- we do know that former CIA chiefs George Tenet (a Clinton appointee) and Porter Goss believe the "enhanced techniques" program worked. OK, you say: They supported waterboarding, so of course they say it worked. But Obama's director of national intelligence, Dennis Blair, a critic of the use of the "enhanced techniques," also said they yielded "high-value information."

Blair, however, maintains that the information was not worth the damage to America's image. I guess it is a sign of the modern age that U.S. forces can deploy unmanned drones to attack the enemy in Afghanistan -- risking the lives of innocent people, among whom the guilty are hiding -- but the left gets its hackles up if KSM loses his beauty sleep.

White House Adviser David Axelrod told CBS's "Face the Nation" that waterboarding and sleep deprivation were "one of the key tools al-Qaida has used for recruitment."

Which begs the question: If these methods serve as a recruiting tool, why is Obama releasing the four Bush waterboarding memos? By his team's own lights, isn't that waving the red flag?

Obama banned "enhanced" interrogation techniques in his first week in office, as he had promised to do during the 2008 campaign. That's not enough, some opponents say. There needs to be a Truth Commission or federal investigation to make sure, as Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., argued, "it never happens again."

The irony is that the CIA stopped waterboarding -- a practice used on three high-value al-Qaida detainees in 2002 and 2003 -- in March 2003. Sometime after 2005, the practice was removed from the CIA authorized list of techniques. Waterboarding ended during the Bush administration.

It ended in part because the longer a detainee was in custody, the more he was separated from usable information. Risk aversion -- intelligence operatives' fear of having to hire expensive lawyers to defend themselves -- and perhaps aversion to waterboarding itself -- did the rest. The mere prospect of a new round of federal investigations has sent the message to all U.S. intelligence operatives that there is no upside in aggressive interrogation. To the contrary, it's a career killer.

The 9/11 commission was supposed to, among other results, prevent intelligence lapses so that 9/11 could never happen again. Now some Democrats want to investigate what they see as post-9/11 intelligence excesses. This isn't about gathering more information to prevent further disasters. It's scalp collecting.

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Geez...........



......Sol, lay off the Kool-Aid. It is making you type leftist liberal crap.


Torture works sometimes...
Now, define "works".

Torture is a violation of human rights. Now, define "human".

Enhanced interrogation techniques do get people to talk. In some cases the information is not useful, in some cases it is.

The Libs now say that all techniques which make a subject uncomfortable constitute torture. They say that there was no valuable information gleaned from the subjects of these interrogations. But there was information gathered which saved the lives of US citizens. Some say that does not matter.

Actually it was two captives, not one, water boarded 226 times: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the self-proclaimed planner of the September 11 attacks and Abu Zubaydah. One of these guys, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, is not "human".

I don't know what the 226 is based on but the numbers are remarkable, indicating a propensity toward punishment rather than intel gathering.

Admittedly, I am repelled by the prospect of torture, or false imprisonment, or even false accusations being applied towards innocent people. But, the blanket statements being made by the current crop of Liberals are no less repugnant to me.

In WWII the Japs and Jerrys used torture that was so vile that it is unimaginable to most folks. They, fortunately lost the war, and there were prosecutions of certain individuals for war crimes. The trials were conducted by the winners, not the losers.

In our case, we are currently engaged in a war with a most vile pack of radical Muslims, who are committed to our destruction. The fact that there were no further attacks on US soil during the GW years indicates that there was at least a modicum of success in our efforts.

Now a new administration is hell bent on prosecuting the winners of the campaign against radical Islam for the last eight years.

Shouldn't the winners do the prosecuting for war crimes? If that is the case, we have surrendered to Islam, and Obama is the best friend that Osama bin Laden has.

Sol-invicitus
Where you get that info is clearly obvious. Another joke to post on this site. What intel do you have that we used the same waterboarding techs that the the japanese used? FYI; there are many ways to do this. How can a comparison be drawn between the japanese of WWII to what you think you know we did? Where's the proof? Another lib blogger? Don't waste your time here. Most of us are far to educated to know better. This isn't high school or college. Get rid of your tie-dye and find a productive life. You'll find no friends here

There is a solution. . .
to the growing problem of islam in this country. Since islamists do not want to assimilate, let's reclassify islam from a "religion" to a "culture". In this way, we remove First Amendment "protection" from their "culture". Muslims that I know personally have told me that if allah wills it (through their imam) they would not hesitate to kill Americans (me and others). Among other things (the intolerance of Sharia "law") and the refusal to abide by American law make them prime candidates for removal. The violence in Europe that is so telling of their intolerance for other cultures is only ONE indicator of their incompatibility with western culture. If I had my way, islamists would be PROHIBITED from entering this country. Those that are already here would be given a time frame and financial assistance to LEAVE. Islam and the Constitution are mutually incompatible.

What we have here . . .
is a "play on words". George Orwell knew only too well that whoever is able to put a definition to a word can quite often manipulate the media (and vise-versa). A good example of a "play on words" is the use of the word torture. I would redefine "waterboarding" as "non-lethal coercion" or "non-lethal encouragement".
The environMENTALists are experts on changing meanings by their "play on words". When they change a "jungle" to a "rainforest" or a "swamp" to a "wetland", they are putting their own "spin" on these definitions. Any sane person KNOWS that jungles and swamps are nasty insect-ridden places. By their manipulation of the language, they are able to manipulat public opinion.

the evidence so far.
While information on torture is leaking out slowly, there does seem to be a picture emerging. Abu Zubaydah was initially questioned using traditional techniques by the FBI. He revealed the names of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Jose Padilla. But he did not provide any evidence of an operational link between al qaeda and Hussein (probably because none existed). So he was tortured, and nothing, or almost nothing, was learned.

So when people talk about torture working they seem to have in mind the questioning of Mohammed, because with Abu Zabaydah the traditional techniques were more successful. But the questioning of Mohammed fixed this by not using traditional methods, so everything got from Mohammed was gotten through torture.

It is not clear how much value this information had. Some people in a position to know say some, some say none. The people who say it had some effect tend to be people who need to defend the use of torture. And, as noted above, the main example of a success contradicts independent claims by the Bush administration.

This is not a strong case for torture working.

Also, Saunders seems to miss that it is the fact that we torture that is a recruiting tool for al qaeda. The fact that we repudiate torture is not. I am not sure why conservatives have trouble seeing that there is a difference there.

Why, Why and Why?
"fact that we torture ... is a recruiting tool for al qaeda."
OK
So why did Obama then release the classified information?
If you say that we and the rest of the world already knew it, SAME QUESTION.
If Nancy Pelosi said she DIDN'T know of it, why didn't she?
What are the motives of the Dems here?
More demonization of Bush/Cheney?

Not just the left
All moral Americans want to put this situation right and make sure that it never happens again. Not just Democrats. Not just lefties.

This article, and other torture apoligies like it, sound plausible and reasoned on the surface. That is because they lack perspective. Writers like Saunders act like waterboarding is something new and a debate over whether it is torture is somehow unsettled and open to reasonable disagreement.

It's not. Waterboarding is an old practice, long defined by EVERYONE as torture. We have prosecuted waterboarding individuals as torturers. This is not a new question. This is not some novel grey area.

Stop defending the indefensible. It is sickening.

If you were a decent person and a good American, this would be your theme:

"President Bush and his administration reacted to the 9/11 tragedy by setting aside longstanding American principles to prevent additional acts of terror and keep America safe. While understandable, it was wrong. It should never have happened, and it should never happen again."

There. Wasn't that easy?

Anything else, and you are a torture apologist. Some issues are black and white, Ms. Saunders.

Read about Islam's "growth"
Get you own sourcing for the history of Islam. Note the techniques for conversion. Determine how it "spread" through the Middle-Eastern world. Do not overlook the year 622.
Etc.

More stupidity
“But common sense tells you that techniques like sleep deprivation, waterboarding and a forced bland diet work, at least some times.”

I didn’t realize that there was a “common sense” approach to torture! I guess if there is, it would be revealed to us by the conservatives.

Let’s set “common sense” aside for a moment and look at what the experts say. For expert opinion, I am going to see what the FBI thinks. They interrogate a lot of people. And they say that torture doesn’t work. They say is can lead to false confessions, and can actually make the prisoner angry and less cooperative. They also say it is immoral and illegal. And that’s why they pulled out of assisting the CIA with its waterboarding extravaganza.

Waterboarding, which simulates death by drowning, is so shocking to the system that it could induce a heart attack, and actually kill the prisoner. It’s awfully hard to extract information from a dead prisoner.

The US should focus on extracting useful information from prisoners, not torturing them.

Hi Allen...
Wow you know a lot!
Did Nancy Pelosi?
Why didn't she (or ANY OTHER!!!!) Congressional insider object when briefed? Did they fall asleep around the 30 briefing?
Too bad they, like you, saw waterboarding as black and white...but APPROVED by their demonstrable silence!

Robert
You imply Nancy Pelosi was a hypocrite.

That may well be. I don't know. But it doesn't make me a hypocrite.

You imply that Nancy Pelosi was indirectly complicit in approving torture. If that is true, then she also shares some responsibility for what happened and should face sanction for her role in the matter.

There. Wasn't that easy? The political party of those involved doesn't matter to me.

This isn't about politics, to me or to most people who oppose torture. This is about a horrible, unAmerican crime.

You want to point a finger and call opposition to torture partisanship? Don't point your finger at me, sport.

Of course, I believe in analyzing an issue objectively, not through the lense of partisan loyalty.

Allen gone? How about Jeffrey?
Maybe Allen #13 left.
Maybe he just can't explain and reconcile the silence (ie tacit approval) of waterboarding THEN after it was explained in 30 briefings to Congress members VS its outraged condemnation NOW.
Can someone else explain?

ok Allen
A fair-enough response.
It is just interesting that what is so clear to you is/was not so clear to everyone - people not segregated by political parties either.
What would be your definition of torture, since definition are required in policy statements?
Or, taken another way, what would be your definition on non-torture that is still pressure, enhancement, etc.?

TORTURE THEM ALL--THEY ARE MURDERERS
How well the Liberals claim to want to protect the rights of Humans.

I never see them in Philadelphia protesting Gangs who kill children.

Uh...not enough glory and nice environments for you?

Here's my deal:

YOU LIBS STOP TORTURING THE CONSTITUTION AND I WILL SUPPORT YOUR EFFORT TO STOP TORTURING MURDERERS.

ROWDY BOOTS

Nice summary
Muslim extremists treat people brutally regardless of what we do. They do amputations and beheadings, and beat and kill people for violations of Sharia law that we would consider minor infractions. Remember that Saddam Hussein was a Muslim despot. Waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation evens the playing field.

Second, I don't believe our use of waterboarding is among the reasons that Muslim terrorist groups hate us and began a war against us.

The Alternative?
Thus far, all those opposed to enhanced interogation techniques have offered no alternative. If they posit that time will wear them down, that doesn't work as pointed out in the article because of the separation from the both strategic and tactical strategies formulated. Please if there is any effective means of extracting information from individuals we deem a threat to our life, propose it. Please!

the great obambi
IS GUILTY OF TORTURE
thats right- 1000's of people evactuating buildings, psycological trauma, fear for ones life, all brought to you by obambis latest photo-op

Until the Shiite-for-brains libdolts
denounce abortion, STFU about waterboarding! You do not now or have ever had the moral highground. Waterboarding is NOT torture, it is more akin to fraternaty initiation rites than it is to torture.

The alternative?
Take no prisoners! Solves two problems - No need for Guantanamo and no need for enhanced interrogation techniques.

When the US suffers another attack, blame it on the boy oblama and the American hating party of democrats!

And I might add!
It is a life saving measure that I no longer support. There were far too many liberals saved as a result.

I say stop all interrogation and let the attacks begin. No doubt in my mind that the target will be a liberal rich environment, (ie: New York, DC, etc).

I call it a two-fer. A group of islamic fanatics will blow themselves up and take a bunch of American hating liberals with them.

Rich
Yep, bringing upon the very realistic sense of impending death is fraternity initiation. Guess what, fraternity initiation and hazing get those fraternity's in trouble.

Don
Your lunacy is reaching a breaking point. Please separate yourself from society before you snap and start killing people in the same of craziness, errr, conservatism.

Someone
explain how letting thousands of Americans die because no one was capable of making a tough choice, a choice our enemies as well as Europe have no problem making, is an American value?

Oxymoron: Intelligence & Liberal
The leftist/liberal/subhuman mind is a pathetic and dangerous thing. Every argument based on common sense, nature's edicts, long and frequent historical examples, as well as the founding principles of this Nation is turned on its head. An appropriate, controlled, and necessary response to protect innocent lives from unspeakable acts is considered worse than the terrorist acts themselves. Killing nascent life in the womb is OK but don’t execute serial murderers. Their answer to a tanking economy brought on by malfeasance is to bailout the miscreants. Granting citizenship to rabble that broke dozens of our laws, many of them felonies, and who are here not to integrate but to suck the life’s blood from the Nation versus securing the borders, no amnesty, and direct the want-to-be citizens through the legal immigration process with careful screening and quota procedures. Law abiding citizens should not have guns but never mind that the crooks all have them and use them indiscriminately. This is a recipe for our collective, rapid demise; self annihilation.

All Democrats
Should be waterboarded until they see the errors of their ways.

So it shall be written......
So it shall be done..........




Ouck Fbama

Mr Difar -MN
U ask the question "Shouldn't the winners do the prosecuting for war crimes?" I do believe You are totally correct on this..I read a book many years ago written by Peter Churchill, wo was, I believe a close relative of Sir Winston.. the name of the book was 'The White Rabbit' which was the moniker he used when he parachuted into Occupied France..His advise was (paraphrasing)" If U aspire to being a Spy in War, Make Sure Ur On The Winning Side' CHEERS

Uh-huh. . .
White House Adviser David Axelrod told CBS's "Face the Nation" that waterboarding and sleep deprivation were "one of the key tools al-Qaida has used for recruitment."

What type of imbecile actually believes this?

Waterboarding
The information elicited by torture is not always useful. The public is greatly misinformed by waterboarding to mean a rather benign form of torture. What is done, is that the victim is strapped in a supine position with the head slightly lower. Water is then poured over the head (face) for a length of time which precludes holding the breath. Some water is aspirated into the lungs causing violent choking/ coughing. The victim will say most any thing. Is this torture? I think so. Is it effective in eliciting real information? I have my doubts.

Let's ask Daniel Pearl
if waterboarding is torture -- that is, compared to what he went through. Uh, what? Oh yeah, he isn't here anymore because he WAS really tortured, which some might say resulted in his untimely death by beheading.
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