Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Sunday, February 08, 2009
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Dysfunctional Family Making
by Debra J. Saunders
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


This is not going to be a column that dumps on the misguided and clearly troubled Nadya Suleman -- the 33-year-old unemployed single Whittier mother of six who gave birth to octuplets last month. Of course, a single mother of six has absolutely no business having more children.

But the real issue here is that we live in a country with so few regulations on the human fertility business that clinics can engage in practices that can lead to premature births -- producing low-birth-weight babies doomed to chronic illnesses and even infant mortality. The outrage isn't that Suleman is unemployed. (She would have had to quit her job anyway to care for her children.) The outrage is that the medical profession enabled her to give birth to eight premature babies, who each weighed between 1.5 and 3.3 pounds, which can be very hazardous to their development.

Doctors' understandable desire to help infertile couples conceive children has led to medical advances that are not necessarily healthy for children. The new order is great for adults, who now can have children without a partner and in defiance of age limits, but it is not necessarily in the best interests of the children they bear. We have created a society that dictates that all reproductive wishes should be answered. Then we criticize an over-her-head mom -- whose own mother fretted that she was "obsessed" with having kids -- when the inevitable horrors happen.

According to the Los Angeles Times, Suleman's mother, Angela, says that the other six children were in vitro babies from the same sperm donor; two are twins, one child is autistic. The octuplets, Suleman's mother said, were the result of her daughter's wish to try for "just one more girl." (She got six more boys and two more girls.)

You can say her fertility doctors -- whoever they are -- should have refused to impregnate an overburdened single mother. They should have. However, in August, the California Supreme Court ruled unanimously that a San Diego fertility clinic had no right to refuse to inseminate a lesbian in a partnership on religious grounds. What happens if doctors refuse a single mom, who can sue based on state law banning discrimination based on marital status?

This story has created a public stir, in part because of the enormous resources at play. It costs about $10,000 to $15,000 for a single cycle of IVF treatment. Yet now, the mother could end up on welfare if she cannot support herself and her 14 children. It's not fair, critics complain, that she can choose to have kids she can't care for, but taxpayers can't choose not to pay for her welfare.

Then again, these innocent children had no say in choosing their mother. Kaiser Permanente Bellflower Medical Center employed a 52-member medical team -- including 12 doctors, two anesthesiologists, seven physicians just for the babies, seven respiratory therapists and 24 nurses -- to deliver the seven expected babies, who remain in the hospital, but are doing "remarkably well," Kaiser spokesman Jim Anderson told me on Thursday, the day Suleman was released. (In case you are wondering, Suleman authorized Anderson to say that she did not use Kaiser for her IVF. In fact, IVF is not a Kaiser-covered benefit.)

Stanford professor William Hurlbut, who sits on the President's Council on Bioethics, has seen IVF bring joy to infertile families. But he also noted that, "Multiple births are the bad thing about IVF." The more children per birth, the worse the medical problems are for the mother and the babies -- who are more likely to die, and are often born prematurely, underweight and more likely to suffer from cerebral palsy or respiratory problems.

American Society for Reproductive Medicine spokesman Sean Tipton noted that his group sees this story as "a failure" of reproductive medicine because, "Multiple births can and should be avoided." His group has worked to reduce multiple births from IVF.

Doctors can abort some of the babies -- they call it "selective reduction" -- to reduce the health risks to mother and children. I'll overlook the considerable ethical issues in the interests of limited space. Be it noted that doctors cannot make a mother agree to the procedure. According to reports, Suleman refused "selective reduction" -- and thankfully, Kaiser says the babies are healthy.

California could limit the number of embryos implanted in a mother -- or set up some protocols to reduce life-threatening multiple births. But there is no easy answer.

Hurlbut noted that each IVF embryo is more likely to create twins than in vivo fertilization. Doctors implanted six embryos in Suleman at her request, which resulted in octuplets.

It amazes me that a state that bans more than one parts per thousands of a certain chemical in children's toys because it might cause cancer or reproductive problems has no laws and no regulations to limit IVF multiple births, which we know raise the mortality rates and serious health problems for mothers and children.

So please, don't just bash the unemployed mother. If Suleman were married and rich, this still would not have a happy ending. It's time for America to wake up to the fact that IVF is not simply a benign reproductive choice.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Debra Saunders' column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
it isnt just medically enhanced
fertility that begs for regulation. in any other business, if you accept the taxpayers money, you get the government interference. but in the business of baby making, its all benefits and no regulations. the government has established the anti-darwinian practice of ensuring the survival, multiplication, and prospering of the unfittest. the taxpayer is forced at governmentpoint to contribute their hard earned and easily stolen tax money to contribute to the delinquincy of our worst citizens: those who, generation after ever enlarging generation, refuse to work, refuse to be good citizens, refuse to take responsibility, and whose only contribution is to vote democrat. when will this practice end? can we not get rid of the intentional paying of meritless, ambitionless, useless people to breed without getting rid of our government? it seems to me that we cant, so so we need to get rid of our government as quickly as we can.

Pitied
This woman and her children are more to be pitied than anything else.


Who did pay for these
in vitro impregnations?

My daughter-in-law's cost nearly $50,000 (almost all cash) for three sets of inseminations. None of which took, and then she became pregnant on her own, altho' the clinic had told her she had blocked fallopian tubes and my son didn't produce enough sperm for fertilization. I guess they were wrong.

Who is paying that hospital bill for a dozen doctors and all the extra medical care?

Prob. we are.

Most people have no clue
how difficult it really is to raise a large family, although they have their suspicions. An article about the reality TV family with 8 children quoted the mom who said that hotels, cars, food -- in short, many things are usually not packaged and convenient for large families. However, that is not a reason to discourage COUPLES from having the number of children they want, if they can take care of them as is needed. Plus, many great people are/were the products of large families, especially in the past when it was much more commonplace, accepted, and desired (especially in the case of farmers who counted children as an asset). However, it is unconscionable that this single woman got IVF to raise a large family, notwithstanding her parents' help. That is an undue burden to the single parent, the grandparents, society most likely, and to the children most importantly. Children will put up with anything, as they must, and hopefully these 14 children will all turn out to be very happy and great kids. IMO, no woman with truly the best intentions would have IVF treatments to become a single mother. But in today's society, there is hardly a moral compass for people to realize what is good and what is bad. What she did is not good, but she doesn't seem to realize it.

"...misguided and clearly troubled ..."

Get this quote: "She said she planned to return to school in the fall."

A sure sign of lunacy ... 14 kids (some ill), and this idiot thinks it's a good time to go back to school?


Let's quess who she voted for.


At Least You're Consistent
You don't want women to have the choice NOT to have babies, and now you don't want this one to have the choice to have them.

What if she'd chosen to have a "reduction;" abort seven of the eight?

To me, the answer is simple here
Whatever doctor or clinic performed these unethical implantations should be sued by the State of California for the balance of whatever the Suleman woman cannot pay. If that causes the demise of the practice, so much the better.

Of course, in California...the land of fruits and nuts...they will probably find a liberal court to absolve the offenders!


Bob Munck...

I'll assume you're a liberal - missing the entire gist of the story as usual.

"Pay to Play" is okay for ex-cons who wish to fill their body with Tattoos. But, we are discussing real human life here.

I'll assume you are incapable of having feelings of empathy for the predicament these children are in.

Self-centered, eh?

Ya Don't Say?

Saunders: “It’s time for America wake up to the fact that IVF is not simply a benign reproductive choice”


Jen: Gee? Ya think?

Guess who else has realized this all along? Uhh, that would be The Catholic Church!

Just one more example of The Church’s prophetic wisdom – go figure!

Carlos 9:59 PM EST
"I'll assume you are incapable of having feelings of empathy for the predicament these children are in."

I don't think we know that the children are in any kind of predicament. The mother was able to afford multiple IVF treatments -- at least seven of them; it's quite possible that she and her family have more than enough money to raise the children with proper care and attention.

There has been speculation that the family will have to be supported by the state, but no verification one way or the other. It has been stated that she's not on welfare now.

I notice you didn't answer my question: should she have aborted seven of the eight?

Wow
I think both sides (liberals and conservatives) are being inconsistent in their response to the Suleman situation. If a woman can abort (read kill) as many babies as she wants, why can't she deliver as many babies as she wants? Reproductive rights, isn't that the mantra? And if we don't want the government micro-managing our lives, do we really want them limiting how many children we can have?

Everyone is assuming Ms. Suleman will go on welfare and the taxpayers will be stuck with all the medical bills. Is there any basis for that prediction from her history? Medicaid doesn't pay for IVF, so she had to come with anywhere from $50,000-100,000 for all the births.

I think Ms. Suleman is assuming that the notariety will get her book deals, maybe a movie or a TV show and many donations. Maybe she will. Maybe the Catholic Church will support her, eh, Jen?

Forgotten in all of this fuss is how our society has glamorized unwed motherhood and how our government has rewarded rather than discouraged illegitimate births for the last 50 years.

oops
Should say: Maybe it will.


Part of a bigger picture
Never mind the welfare of the children, or who will pay for the lady's choice. She wanted 14 babies. Could science do it? YES
WE CAN.

Our society is losing all sense of ethical or religious judgment and is worshiping at the altar of science. I certainly support scientific advancement but the power of science has to be balanced by the power of morality and obedience to G-d's laws. Yes, we are able to plant eggs in a woman's body and clone animals and perform "miracles" never before seen...but without G-d's guidance, how are we to know when to stop? I read a celebratory article the other day about scientists attempting to improve the cloning process by combining human DNA with a variety of other animals (mice, pigs, others). It made me think of that line from "Jurassic Park". When arguing against the process, a brilliant mathematician said, "They we so focused on whether they could that they forgot to ask whether they should."

As with all matters of liberty...
...I support the mother's right to be wrong. I don't think there is or will be an epidemic of such bizarre behavior. As long as she is mentally competent to sign a contract with the IVF doctors, she should be free to do as she pleases.

She should also bear any and all consequences of her decision. If she has a problem with the IVF doctors' decisions resulting in 8 births, she has the option to sue them.

As for me, I would urge her in the most unequivocal manner that this is an insane decision, unless she is independently wealthy and has a husband to give the kids a proper upbringing. That is by no means an endorsement for forcibly interfering in the reproductive decisions of mentally competent adults. This is no place for government bureaucracy. Are you nuts?! Have you never been to the DMV?

If she can handle it
Then Nadya Suleman can have as many children as she wants. You didn't complain about Bobbie McCaughey in 1997 when she had the septuplets, did you? You're not complaining about Michelle Duggar, who has 18 children and two of them are twins. Your ancestors didn't complain about the Russian lady in the 1700s who had 69 kids. A lot of those preganancies were multiples, I heard. Your children aren't complaining that Cassie of "Dragon Tales" has 73 brothers and sisters. Her mother probably had multiples in a lot of her pregnancies, I think). You probably wouldn't be doing that if she was a real person. So why does Nadya get the headlines when all these other creatures (Cassie isn't human) had more children than she does?

Let's just consider that she gave birth
to only ONE baby, not eight. Just for a minute.

I, for one, would still have been against an IVF for someone that already had six children.

No objections for the first one, two, even three or four - but by five it's getting kind of WHAT and by seven the answer would be No way, no how.
-----------------------
Perhaps there should be not just a competency test, but you must submit a fiscal plan of care for IVF children.

Munck
You are purposely being obtuse. This woman does not own a home, it is her mother's. She has no job. And refused to marry the father? WTF is right about that? I do believe that the doctors were irresponsible to their patient and the other surviving children. You are kidding yourself if you don't think you'll be paying for those kids.

Excuse me Nickelbackfan
Just because she CAN have the children, doesn't mean she SHOULD. We are talking about a single mother who had IVF, and she already had 6 children! That is unconscionable.

More The Merrier.
Having less money in these hard times is keeping people at home with nothing to do but watch television and enjoy sex. A national survey has disclosed that stay at home couples make love twice as much. Unless the economy rebounds we can expect a population explosion that will overflow school systems. But that is good news. Building more schools and playgrounds will produce needed jobs. It is also good for farmers who have the land necessary to feed millions of hungry mouths. There is no sacrifice as wonderful as the one we make for children even if they are not our own. The U.S has over three hundred million people. Some say we don't have room for more. But that is not true; China is the same size and holds over one billion happy people. There is room for an additional one billion people in the U.S. and We should open our borders to the hungry and give them a taste of our food. Agricultural knowledge is so advanced that farmers could easily produce enough to feed one trillion people. It is wise to Spend most of the time having as much sex as possible. Not only is it pleasurable but it creates lots of beautiful children and new jobs.







I'm guessing she's not the poster
picture of Responsibilty. Maybe she should have 8 more kids so Melvin from New York can sleep better at night. The more the merrier right Melvin?

idiocy
Suleman is being selfish and not really considering the lives of her children or for taxpayers who will no doubt end up footing the bill for her "dream" of a large family.
This country is broke and millions of people are already suffering financially and do not need the added burden of welfare for a selfish moron like Suleman. How can she possibly have enough time to bond closely with each baby? It's like having a small classroom of children and some are bound to be more needy than others.
I think she planned on getting all the freebies that other multiple birth parents received, like a big house and a 15 person van, lifetime supply of diapers and baby food, several washer/dryer combos and who knows what else. It seems no one is offering Suleman the jackpot, so now she says she will depend on her family, friends and church to help her. Thanks for the added burden!

I Have Read Many Articles...
...and comments on these hallowed pages. Some I have agreed with some I have disagreed with, some have amused me, some have appalled me, some have given me food for thought and have made me re-evaluate my position on certain matters. I am however rendered numb by the fact that someone would admit to being a 'nickelback fan'!!!!

Unanswered Questions
There are still a lot of unanswered questions in this story. Knowing how much IVF costs, this woman somehow had around $100,000 worth of in-vitro fertilization treatments - yet she is a full-time student. Her family is NOT wealthy, in fact, I read that they live in a small 3 bedroom house and declared bankruptcy recently. So with no visible means of support - other then the forbearance of her parents - this woman has allowed herself to become a multi-million dollar liability. How did this happen, and who paid for it? And now I hear that her parents have said she can't bring the 8 new babies into their home. She and the other 6 will have to find someplace else to live.

I don't have any problem at all with a married couple having as many children as they can afford. I have a tremendous problem with a selfish nutcase having a huge brood of children who will be a drain on society and our resources.

Octuplets
Ms. Suleman has the right to have all the children she wants...as long as she does it on her dime. I deeply resent, as a tax-paying citizen of this counry, having my tax money go, via Merdicaid and ADC, to pay for Ms. Suleman to indulge her fantasy of having her own football team (with substitutes). The fact that she might get mega-bucks for her "story" is immaterial. The "NOW" situation is that she is unemployed, a drain on her family, which is struggling to support her and her "herd" (if I remember correctly, her parents have had to declare bankrupsy because they could not afford to take care of her and her previous six). It is not society's responsibility to pay for her "enjoyment of having children". If she loves children that much, there are untold numbers of children in foster-care and awaiting adoption, that she could have been a mother to. I also agree that the MD that did the IVF should have to repay the state/fed. for the cost of these children. Whoever the MD was, he/she should have had more common sense.

Unmarried women who

become pregnant should be fined $10,000 and sentenced to one year in jail.

Unwed mothers are one of our nation's worst anti-social behaviors and should, rightly be discouraged by negative reinforcements.

Strangely calm woman
IMHO, she must be in la-la land! I would have been a frenzied, basket-case just thinking about the responsibility of raising 8 tiny and premature human babies that I had created without even a father--add to that, the sheer logistics of daily care for them and the other 6 children. I guess I'd go on TV instead of home, too.

castrated with a pair of pliers

eddie too Location: NE
Reply # 25
Date: Feb 9, 2009 - 11:41 AM EST
Unmarried women who

become pregnant should be fined $10,000 and sentenced to one year in jail.

==========
You stupid ignorant fool. The one really responsible should be castrated with a pair of pliers, no pain killer.

He most likely started it, and he could stop it easily, if he had cared.
-------------

I am all in favor of her getting paid for pictures, stories and interviews. I won’t read or watch it, but you idiots spend billions for that type of junk, from Hollyweird, and TV each and every year.

Where is the Father?!?!?!?
This woman is a whack job. She has NO HUSBAND! Where is the father in all of this? Why hasn't there been more scrutiny on him? Fatherless children has reached an all time epidemic in this world and no one seems to bring that fact to light.

Nickel - you obviously are young and have no clue. You missed the point of the article with your post. Those other families that you mentioned have 2 major things that this twit does not, and that is a FATHER/HUSBAND and a JOB.

Eddie too
You really have a negative attitude towards single mothers. I can only imagine what you would say about single mothers resulting from divorce. How about the women who stay married [like my mother], but put up with physical abuse and us kids have to witness and endure the same abuse? Single parenthood would be preferrable and I speak from experience.

Single women and their babies are NOT the cause of society's ills. Crime, poverty, stupidity, drug abuse have all come about because of the failings of society and individuals in general.
Lots of women are single mothers because they chose not to abort; a choice so many of you say you abhor. Women are often poor due to lack of a good education, lack of opportunities and then there is the unequal pay structure that exists in our workforce to this day. AND, then there are all the selfish, inconsiderate, irresponsible, committment-phobic American men!!! Most kids start off in intact marriages; so why are most of the men so unreasonable in their demands for a mate?
Stop attacking single motherhood; maybe what is needed is an attack on single fatherhood; lack of foresight on infertility tx and an attack on the chronic ills of our society that accepts poverty without question or concern.

Instant Gratification Rules
As a member of a generation that seems to believe it is entitled to everything it wants at someone else's expense or it will hold its breath until it turns blue (or sue), Ms. Suliman could not be a better poster child for the phrase Actions Have Consequences.

Remember the little girl Veruca Salt in the original "Willy Wonka" movie, who glared at her father and growled, "I'm going in and DON'T YOU DARE TRY TO STOP ME!" There you have this generation in a nut shell.

P.S. To all the people demanding that "the father" step up and take responsibility -- he was a sperm donor. His responsibility was looking at pictures and, er, providing the product, collecting the cash and decamping. Not unlike most of you who hit the bars on Friday and Saturday night, in a way, is it?

Octuplets
I agree with your statements. However, I would like to add another point. Society must stop applauding and supporting multiple births. Why does this poor troubled woman think that she can support her children? It is because she is looking for support through product endorsement and through charity. Families of multiples are often given homes, cars, and other items. Also well-meaning members of the public send blankets, bottles, clothing, etc. We all think multiples are so cute. We need to start focusing on the fact that multiple births mean medical problems for mothers and children. We also need to focus on the fact that because of medical science multiple births are no longer rare events. Furthermore, we need to look at the fact that in most cases the parents of multiples are not well off. That means if individuals do not pitch in, at some point the government will have to. Finally, we need to look at our already over populated earth. We are running out of resources and huge multiple births will not help the situation.

The momma and her litter
I think this gal will inevitably not be on welfare. Other than the probability that tax payers will support her and her small country, she's pandering to Oprah for money and there's bound to be paid public appearances a book deal in the works.

God Bless these sweet and innocent children, but I think she's a very sad case and I feel sorry for her.

Alice
DELIBERATE single motherhood is the issue here, not single parenthood resulting from the things life will throw at us.

Women wind up poor due to their own poor choices. Have a child out of wedlock, and suddenly education to make a better life must be delayed because that baby needs his mom, and mom now needs to work two or three jobs to support him. There's only so much of her to go around, after all. This is good exactly how? If the baby is male he is doubly at risk for trouble down the road-with no father around to teach him how to be a man guess where he too often looks? This is why we conservatives try so hard to convince our young women that it's college first, marriage next, THEN children!

That said such can happen in the best of intact families, and there are some single mothers out there who manage very well. But the fact remains that single motherhood is the culprit behind so many of our young men lacking a responsible father's influence and leadership (and subsequently winding up in trouble at school and with the law) because, frankly, Mom was irresponsible to begin with. Therefore deliberate single motherhood should not be encouraged and in fact OUGHT to be a very uncomfortable situation to be in.

Gutless Crew
Interesting to hear a bunch of comments from people who don’t realize there is right and there is wrong. This continual “gray area” that has been the prevalent banter on these posts has me amazed.

It’s as if we all know in our hearts what this woman did is wrong (that’s actually called a conscious, people), but then people feel the need to justify or argue why it is wrong. We begin to see people tripping on their own words trying to say, well, it’s wrong b/c she was single, or it’s wrong b/c she isn’t financially well off, or it’s wrong b/c some of the kids might have some disabilities and not enjoy the defined quality of life many like to hold so dear.

The truth is, it’s wrong b/c well IVF is wrong and well, somehow we all know that. Why is it wrong? Because (all religion aside) it’s a violation of the natural moral order. And before I get some ignorant poster who thinks Natural Law refers to whether something is “natural” vs. artificial, please do yourselves a favor and look up what is meant by Natural Law.

If we violate the natural moral order, we will have negative consequences. This isn’t a judgment – it’s a fact.

You all can continue your little debates, but they aren’t based on logic, truth or sound reason if you are unable to see the big picture here. Haven’t you the courage to stand up for what is right (yes, even if that means offending a co-worker who is contemplating IVF, or a daughter-in-law, or a neighbor)?

Such a misguided mindset to think we haven’t the right to tell someone when they are about to engage in an immoral behavior.

Jen's at it again.
Like I have said before, you simply cannot imagine that people UNDERSTAND your argument AND disagree with it at the same time. Since you can't grasp that basic concept you are a waste of time and energy in a discussion. I have a little time to waste so here goes:

Do you honestly believe the conservative posters here deep down really think IVF is categorically wrong, but are justifying certain uses of it for "fear of offending a co-worker,etc...?" That is laughably silly and irrational.

Jen wrote:
"The truth is, it’s wrong b/c well IVF is wrong and well, somehow we all know that."
and:
"It’s as if we all know in our hearts what this woman did is wrong (that’s actually called a conscious, people), but then people feel the need to justify or argue why it is wrong. "

You have a remarkably egocentric point of view here. Someone needs to tell you the truth:Deep down everyone DOESN'T agree with you. The reasons they post, which are listed in your post, really ARE the reasons they think it's wrong.

The other reason people tend to not respond to you is because of your erratic use of Scripture and human "priestly" interpretation. Just in case you didn't already know this, all pro-lifers and/or Christians deep down don't agree with how your church does THAT either. Really, it's true. Every other Catholic I ever met understood that, but you seem to have a hard time with the concept.

To accuse everyone here of being "gutless" at being consistent with their views shows how completely unable you are at recognizing a view different than your own. There really are people who genuinely disagree with you because they really DO see it differently. Seriously, they do not secretly think you are right.

IVF
The woman has no judgment. The doctor should have known better. The woman could not have pulled this off without help. Presumably the doctor is not mentally impaired or emotionally sick. The new President has spoken of responsibility. There is no evidence of that in this case.
Some think that fatherlessness is the cause of many of the problems that our society has with young people. I believe that they are right.
These children have no functioning father. I consider it to be selfish of this woman to pay more heed to her wishes than to the welfare of these children.
Donald W. Bales, M.D. retired internist, Kingsport, Tn.

HomeschoolMom AZ 1

Ahh, Homeschoolmom we meet again. Actually, once again you miss my point. I am well aware that most (especially on these posts) do not agree with me. My point, however is their arguments hold no water b/c they are absent of truth. My comments were merely pointing out how funny it is when people think they are presenting a valid argument when in fact, if the foundation of their argument is not based on truth then it all starts to unravel.

Abortion is a perfect example. Some may argue abortion is wrong except in the cases of rape. WRONG! Abortion is immoral and therefore always wrong regardless of the extenuating circumstances.

The same thing is true regarding IVF. As soon as one starts to make the argument that IVF is fine as long as it is a married couple who has been unable to conceive and just wants a baby to love. I mean if it’s fine in that situation, at what number do you draw the line? Who gets to decide how many kids is too many? Who gets to decide if money is a factor? Or quality of life? Or marital status?

My point is -- how absurd everyone’s arguments are if you think truth and what is right depends on how well we can justify or rationalize something. Or even better yet, how much sympathy we can muster up for the situation.

HomeschoolMom AZ 2

And yes, I think deep down people could know things like IVF are wrong. Unfortunately, they have been ill informed on the topic and have also not had well-formed consciences to help them ascertain right from wrong. But some things continually tug at our hearts and things just don’t sit well with us. We need to explore why that is.

I know I bug you HSM, but you might want to ask yourself honestly why that is? If what I say starts making a little too much sense, feel free to follow your heart.

BTW, please be a little more specific on any time I have ever posted an erratic view of scripture.

You want to argue why IVF is immoral? Let’s have at it. There is so much logic and common sense to the premise, I challenge you to show otherwise.

HomeschoolMom AZ 3

Here’s what the catechism has to say . . .


2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child's right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses' "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."167


Which parts do you not agree with?

Hoarding Babies
If Suleman collected dogs or cats the way she's collected babies, she would be diagnosed as a "hoarder" with a mental illness.

If I read the reports correctly, I understand that she is not on welfare because she is on disability. The interview with her mother shows that all the care for her previous six is being done by the grandmother, NOT Suleman. Looking at the conditions (crowded and messy) that the family is already living in with just 6 children shows that bringing 8 more children into the mess isn't practical.

Maybe she's just a shrewd operator looking for a bunch of handouts that have traditionally been awarded to multiple births, but my guess is - this lady is a nutcase - only she hoards helpless children instead of helpless animals, old newspapers, or other paraphernalia.

Those eight children should NOT be released to her substandard care!

BTW Jen
I have a "very well formed consciousness that helps me ascertain right from wrong".

I am opposed to abortion because it kills a living being, but IVF does just the opposite. Many beautiful babies are alive today with loving parents because of IVF.

I was raised in the catholic church and even attended a catholic university. You need to understand that just because YOU consider the catechism as scripture does not mean that non-catholics do.

As HSM says, it is the very definition of egocentricity to believe that everyone feels exactly as you do, or that they must be unable to tell the difference between right or wrong.

I firmly believe that helping an infertile couple to bear and raise a child that they love and adore is a good thing.

Eight babies (or ANY more babies for that matter) to an emotionally unstable woman like Suleman - not good! For that, I blame the fertility doctors who should have known better, not the IVF procedure itself.

Like anything else, IVF can be abused, but that does not make it inherently wrong.

If you believe IVF is bad (because of your church or whatever) don't do it! But don't tell other people that they don't know right from wrong just because they don't agree with you and the teachings of the catholic church.

Taking an innocent life = bad!
Helping to bring about innocent life = good!

tuxedopress
Hoarding Babies

That sounds like Angelina Jolie and her foreign baby collection. She has the money to do it of-course but baby collector all the same.

tuxedoxpress

No one is arguing the babies from IVF are bad. How typical of your position to throw an emotional argument like that into the mix.

Children born out of wedlock from some one night stand are just as beautiful as a child born to a happily married couple, but surely you aren’t arguing that therefore children out of wedlock is a good thing.

The means at which the child came about would still be immoral. I’m sorry you don’t see it, but it’s true.

If IVF is not immoral, then why is this woman wrong? How many is “too many?” And who gets to decide? If she is helping to bring an innocent life into existence and as you say is a good thing, then why is what she did not a good thing? Your argument doesn’t hold up. Why is it good for one person to help create new life and not another if the means are irrelevant? Are these childrens’ lives not of value?

My point is still the same. People have no real sense of right and wrong anymore. It all just comes down to what our society finds tolerable. You are a perfect example of such a mindset. It use to be pre-marital sex was frowned upon. I guess no more. How can that be? Either it is right or it is wrong. Truth does not change.

So what changed? Your standards must have changed. IVF falls right into this category. They used to be referred to as test tube babies, but that’s no longer PC. I mean it might actually refer to the method of how these children came to be and we wouldn’t want to be reminded of that would we? We don’t like to hear the truth, so we need to change the terminology, so it sits better with our consciences.

Well formed conscience indeed.

Things get a little more complicated, don't they? when we don't listen to Jesus' Church.

tuxedoxpress

Tuxedo: I was raised in the catholic church and even attended a catholic university. You need to understand that just because YOU consider the catechism as scripture does not mean that non Catholics do.

Jen: I never claimed the catechism was scripture. I merely asked HSM to tell me what parts of the beautiful words from the catechism does she disagree with.

Also, the fact that you were raised catholic and especially the fact that you went to a catholic university means very little to me.

Aparently, the catholic university you attended did a poor job teaching one of its students that IVF is immoral and a violation of natural law so as to be able to argue the point with non catholics. Or perhaps you missed that day in theology class.



Tuxedo: If you believe IVF is bad (because of your church or whatever) don't do it! But don't tell other people that they don't know right from wrong just because they don't agree with you and the teachings of the catholic church

Jen: We all have a responsibility to stand up for what is right and speak out against that which is wrong. You must have me mistaken for one of those politicians who lack principle ( “I am personally opposed to abortion, but believe a woman should have the right to choose”)

I have an obligation as a friend, and a Christian to stand up for the truth regarding IVF. I have just as much right to tell you you are wrong regarding your views on IVF as you do to post that you believe this woman was wrong to have done this. What is the difference? Except that perhaps you aren’t quite as convinced about your position as I am of mine. I might find it hard to express an opinion too and convince others of it, if that opinion held no truth.

Funny thing about shaky foundations, when pressed to actually live in the houses we build or ask our friends to live in them, we become a little afraid. And rightly so, don’t ya think?

could it be..?
Mind you this is in part a rhetorical question.
But it looks to me as if a person that isn't a parent feels a great deal of undue pressure to be a parent because women especially derive a great deal of social validation from it?

When an objection to gay marriage is brought up, the prevailing opinion is that gay people or gay sex can't procreate.
As if there is NOTHING else of merit a person who doesn't procreate can't contribute to society and it's welfare.

I'm sure most of us have heard of baby greed so intense that expecting women have been murdered for their fetuses.

And what about the stigma that those who CHOOSE not to have children have to endure?
These are the first to be called selfish and uncaring of children, when usually the opposite is true. But even if it weren't so what?

And those without children are often expected to work longer hours at their jobs, forgo vacations and raises and commit their tax dollars for life to the welfare state.
Who does it HURT if some of us don't procreate? Who does it hurt if those without children or intention of them utilize their freedom and talent for something else?

Ms. Suleman felt inadequate and invalid as a person, as a woman for lack of producing babies. Certainly on threads regarding marriage equality, the message of value according to fecundity and fertility is loud and clear.
And no wonder so many children ARE born against their parent's better instincts or conditions to do so.


just STOP
with the simplistic and inane assertions regarding 'natural law'.
I'm so sick of people talking about that, and in the same breath keep bringing up ancient religious belief as the other half of rationalizing what is essentially more of what a barbaric society was willing to do to who they BELIEVED to be weak, inadequate or different.


"Natural law" isn't empathetic or passive. Men felt obligated by such thinking (and still do) towards brutally subjugating anything but that which advanced their own primitive attitudes.
Morals, is about resisting natural law, and brutal reactionary behavior and structuring civility and goodness towards a common goal.
Natural law is about selfishness, not compassion.
Why not be honest about 'natural law' being code for turning back the clock on those most easily scapegoated by that code.
It's just another way of rationalizing anything from misogyny to Nazism, racism and so on.

You want natural law, go live in a jungle WITHOUT the civil codes that protect you and others FROM you and see how well you'd survive natural law.

Aid for Dependent Children
It has already been reported that she is supporting her other children on AFDC, so I assume she is now eligible for aid to support all 14 children. That should be a crime. Why should responsible taxpayers support her children? I am totally angry that she believes she deserves to be taken care of. I feel no respect for her at all.

HomeschoolMom AZ 1

HSM, I know you will run, but I also am pretty sure you read my posts. You always resort to attacking my “arrogant” delivery when you have no substance against my argument. That’s ok. I do realize my blunt posts are meant to wrile people up a bit.

I guess it just cracks me up when people go back and forth arguing with one another never really getting at the heart of the matter. Often in your posts, you try to assess the situation, suggest we each put aside our petty differences and pose that we all try to determine the truth and come to some workable solution.

The problem is when I (and typically I alone who responds to your posts) suggest to you what the truth of the matter is, you don’t really want to hear the truth. You pretend you want to come up with a solution, but one will never be achieved if you refuse to get at the root of the problem (whether we are dealing with IVF or contraception).


You can’t honestly believe our Lord would have wanted the marital act reduced down to some scientific experiment that involves an intrusive third party. Just think about that.

As far as I know, the RCC and the RCC alone has the courage to stand up against this grave evil.

You claim you know other catholics who are ok with others not accepting these truths. I’m not sure what you mean by “ok with”? If you mean they allow you the freedom to believe what you like – I should hope so. But if you mean they don’t believe the truths themselves, then they really shouldn’t consider themselves catholic.

These truths can most certainly be backed by scripture and they also can be shown to be a violation of the moral order. And since God created the moral order, they are a violation of God’s laws.

I’m not extreme – just honest.

HomeschoolMom AZ 2

HSM, you should check out this conversion story of Kimberly Hahn. You would like her. She is a homeschooler and has even written a book on the topic. She is also a convert to the Catholic Church. And one of the initial things that opened her heart to the truth of the RCC was the issue of birth control. She has given a beautiful talk on this topic that I encourage you to look up. I couldn’t find transcripts for her birth control talk on-line, but here is her conversion story.



catholicanada.com/web/index.


Her husband’s conversion story is equally inspiring and could help make hers a little more sense too, if you wanted to check them out. They are good reads.

http://www.katoliko.com/scotthahn.htm


Dear Jen
I am hesitant to address your self-righteousness but after taking this type of distorted thinking for so many years, I'm a little fed up with it.

You can claim that the RCC is right about everything and blindly follow their "regs" if you want, but you cannot force it on others.

If the RCC says it is OK to cover-up child molestation by priests, does that make it so?

If it is OK for the RCC to have two popes at a time, with their little altar boy "lap dogs", does that make it proper?

If the RCC promotes the Inquisition for political gain, power and MISGUIDED spiritual thinking, does that make it acceptable?

If the pope supports the Nazis in their determination to commit genocide against the Jews, does that make him an infallible holy man?

If the RCC encourages it clergy to foment insurrection and uprisings in South America and third world countries for political gains and conversions, does that excuse the murdering?

Infallible? I think not!

I pity you for blindly accepting dogma from an institution that has already shown that it is as capable of error as any other.

It irritates me that you blindly believe that you are right and everyone else is wrong, but considering the source you are coming from, it is understandable!

Oh, and for your information, even after 16 years of brainwashing by the RCC, I don't accept the infallibility of the "truths" you blindly tout. And yes, I would never consider
myself a catholic again.

In fact, I agree with you. If someone doesn't accept the truths of the RCC, or whatever church they claim to belong to, then they should NOT claim to be a member of that denomination. Then so many so-called catholics would not have voted for Obama and his pro-abortion policies.
(continued below)

Dear Jen (continued)

As an old woman, I've prayed and studied and learned a peaceful, productive pathway to a church that has higher moral standards and developed a loving relationship with my Heavenly Father.

Perhaps you should try the Bible and read about the many admonitions from the Savior to not judge others. Seems like I remember that little credo is in the catechism too. Or has it been removed?

You have no concept of my relationship with God, or my ability to choose between right and wrong. You only know what you have blindly accepted as "truth".

I cannot judge you, but I can pray for you because "Only God knows what is in a man's (woman's) heart".

tuxedoxpress 1

Always with the inquisition and “two” Popes at the same time accusations. Don’t ya just love it when people have to go back to the middle ages to dig up some dirt -- Too funny!

I can understand why you left The Church – you never bothered to find out the full stories regarding all these so called problems with The Church that you bring up. No one ever claimed people within The Church can do no wrong. Obviously, The Church is full of sinfil, falible people and it always will be. This however, does nothing to detract from its divine element.

The Bible was written by sinful men, just like the rest of us, but does not mean we dismiss its truth.

BTW, I try to read The Bible daily. Nice try though, to yet squeeze one more myth that the RCC does not encourage Bible reading into your post that you have obviously bought into. How absurd!

I’m sorry you were so poorly catechized in what The Church truly teaches.


tuxedoxpress 2

Tuxedopress: Taking an innocent life = bad!
Helping to bring about innocent life = good!

Jen: By this logic, the girl in this article did a good thing.

Perhaps, at this catholic university you also failed to take Logic 101. Are you sure it wasn’t a university of scientology?

We need to get the truth out about what people are really saying. You aren’t even cabable if logically arguing what the woman in this article did, so what makes you think you have a good grasp in what’s truth?


You are right, I have no idea of the relationship you have with God. But I have not blindly accepted anything. Every single teaching of the RCC is based on scripture, logic, and can be defended. Can you say the same thing about your beliefs? It sounds like you have blindly accepted the criticisms of The Church and have blindly accepted the ideologies of the pagan world.

Now how is it again you think our Lord is ok with IVF? Oh, that’s right, b/c little babies result from IVF. Cannot the same be said of rape, pre-marital sex, and adultery?

Helping to bring about innocent life = good
Telling people they can’t always have everything the way they want = bad

Yes, now I get it.

Dear Jen
If it makes you feel better to attack me, so be it! Actually, I DO know the full stories behind the problems with the RCC that I brought up, and not all of my comments were about the ancient history of the "middle ages" as you so quaintly write. Convenient?

I'll continue to pray for you because you obviously DON'T "get it".

BTW, if God is All-Knowing and Omnipotent, as we BOTH believe he is, how did the Immaculate Conception, which we BOTH believe in, occur ('cause there wasn't no hubby there)? Do you think God knew something about medical science? Or will it forever remain a "mystery"?

HomeschoolMom AZ 1

Let me ask you this, where exactly do you think The RCC comes up with its teachings? What process do you think is involved in The Church deciding IVF wrong? I have a feeling it is not all that different than your own. The Church studies Sacred Scripture. The Church takes what it knows from the life of Jesus and what the Bible has specifically told us and applies a What would Jesus have done approach?

Perhaps the only difference with your approach and the RCC is the RCC has theologians, philosophers, biblical scholars, and years of experience in dealing with such matters.

Now, after careful study and research the RCC has declared IVF as immoral, how can you not lend their decision any credence?

Again what specifically in this answer do you take issue with?


“There are two main reasons why we are opposed to in-vitro fertilization. The first reason is that in-vitro fertilization is artificial and takes the special nature of the transmission of human life, through the marital act, out of procreation. Secondly, in-vitro fertilization leads to the creation of embryos, some of which are discarded. This is a violation of the dignity of the human life of the embryo.”



“In the usual practice of in vitro fertilization, not all of the embryos are transferred to the woman's body; some are destroyed. Just as the Church condemns induced abortion, so she also forbids acts against the life of these human beings. It is a duty to condemn the particular gravity of the voluntary destruction of human embryos obtained in vitro for the sole purpose of research, either by means of artificial insemination or by means of "twin fission." By acting in this way the researcher usurps the place of God; and, even though he may be unaware of this, he sets himself up as the master of the destiny of others inasmuch as he arbitrarily chooses whom he will allow to live and whom he will send to death, and kills defenseless human beings”


HomeschoolMom AZ 2

“Such practices are opposed on the grounds that the sexual act has two purposes: the unitive (emotional or spiritual) and the procreative (biological). Since these functions "by nature" belong together, it is always wrong to separate them. Artificial insemination, in vitro fertilization, and surrogate motherhood are immoral because they involve sexual acts that are procreative, but not unitive. And, rightful conception must respect the inseparability of the two meanings of the sexual act.”



And how can you not at least be honest in admitting The Church forsaw the very catastrophic incident of this lady and her octuplets that would result from such a careless approach to the value of life?

How can any reasonable person not admit the obvious wrong with something like IVF? I need to understand why you feel it so important to allow for something that can have such devastating consequences. Does the inability to conceive render one’s life pointless? Have we come to view children as some kind of right we are owed as opposed to the gifts they are?



tuxedoxpress

Tuxedo, interesting how I am personally attacking you, but you weren’t personally attacking me, huh?

If you could show me the logic and reasoning behind your beliefs, I would love to hear them. You yet however, have only demonstrated the illogic of your beliefs.

I’ll be waiting . . .




BTW, your poor catechism is showing through again. You prove my point that you left a Church you didn’t even know. The immaculate conception does not refer to the incarnation. The immaculate conception refers to Mary being born without sin. Mary is the immaculate conception – Not Jesus. Don’t worry, it is a commom mistake those who never really knew the faith make.


I believe you meant to compare Jesus’ birth with invitro and not Mary’s birth. Although, either way sounds a little blasphemous to me


Dear Jen,
I'm sure it sounds blasphemous to you, no matter whether I was referring to Mary's birth or the Savior's (actually both).

Guess both will stay a "mystery" to you.

This is getting tiresome.

Have a nice life!

tuxedoxpress


Tuxedo: BTW, if God is All-Knowing and Omnipotent, as we BOTH believe he is, how did the Immaculate Conception, which we BOTH believe in, occur ('cause there wasn’t no hubby there)

Jen: I’m not trying to be nitpicky here (ok, maybe I am ), but you obviously were not referring to both the birth of our Lord and the birth of Mary b/c you said we both know there was no hubby at the immaculate conception. Actually, this is obviously not true. Mary’s mother, Anne was married and Mary was conceived in the traditional sense (with husband present). Please do not try to backpedal that you meant both by your comments. It’s disingenuous. You clearly do not know your catechism as well as you think you do. In other words and to use your own words, you just don’t “get it”.

Therefore, I am not surprised this is getting tiresome. You are wise to run.

why does this
kind of subject devolve into a theological or religious one?!
Hello!
Religious choice is just that, a choice.
What we're really talking about is essentially what I try to explain in my post: an unhealthy invalidation of those who don't procreate. And women and gay people all over again bear the brunt of this stigma, and to an effect that guilt or feelings of inadequacy drive women especially to such extremes.
IVF is the answer to those who don't or can't accept their infertility. Or are disqualified from adoption for whatever reason. Or have a preference for their own genetic backgrounds.
And in the case of gay men and women, having a biological child makes it that much easier to not have the state take away your children just because you're gay.
Which is a much more appalling Draconian thought.

Didn't anyone hear what this woman said about WHY she had so many children?
Her motives are a symptom of what a typical TH thread (and often the public at large) opines about those who don't procreate.

Considering the boomlet of children in certain sectors of our country, procreation isn't the problem, it's lack of resources to sustain it.

can anyone answer this?
I understand that most religious belief considers non procreative sex a sin.
And also unmarried or extra marital sex.
Okay, I get that.

However, non procreative sex is healthy and sometimes vital for various individual reasons.
The point is, that it's private and can't and shouldn't be regulated based on someone else's religious choices.

So, can someone please tell me why, NOT procreating is SUCH a problem for some people?
As I stated, it's as if those without children have nothing else of merit to offer society, and are considered more selfish for choosing NOT to parent.

That truly makes NO sense. Who DOES it hurt? Given all the factors that the human population of the world is in no danger of not having enough numbers.
And given the fact that indirect responsibility is still required from those without children to support.

So why such prejudice, why such devaluation?
Nadya Suleman's choices WERE purely selfish.
But I wonder, if this considerable stigma contributed to her choice?


Response to Jen
I read your links to the Catholic argument on birth control and procreation a few months ago. Nothing you cited had anything to do with the actual literal interpretation of what the Bible said.

The most ludicrous one that really sticks out in my mind was citing Ananias and Sapphira's with holding money from the sale of property from the apostles as evidence against birth control. It isn't. It is a bizarre interpretation made by people who want the Bible to say something it never said. Which of course means, it can mean ANYTHING they want it to say.

My point about other Catholic people was that they don't secretly think everyone really agrees with them deep down when they understand their arguments like you do.

Why do you think some woman who converted to Catholicism carries more weight with me because she homeschools? You may think agreed approaches to education somehow makes a person more credible on Scriptural interpretation, but I don't. I think that's silly.

I post a detailed response at O'Riely's article 8 is More than Enough on the appropriate use of IVF.

Honey, you really need to understand that not everyone takes Catholic Theologians as a source of truth. You keep throwing that out there, but only a Catholic takes it seriously. Only Mormons take Joseph Smith seriously. Only Muslims take Mohammad seriously.


Re: This is a good one..
An insane woman has IVF and her doctor is exclusively repsonsible. No one knows if the doctor would have preferred to reduce the number of embryos, to give a better chance to one or two embryos, but the woman refused. OK. The woman is totally innocent even if insane, with all the CIVIL RIGHTS intact, but the doctor should be "hung".
Not every child is a blessing. It is a blessing when there are two willing parents to love and raise it. Abortion is fine when accidents happen (and they do, especially among the irresponsible young)while it can be performed as a Health Care procedure, like D&C. I am absolutely against late term abortion (I consider late term, after the 12th week of gestation.) To force a woman to carry an accidental pregnancy to full term is as sinful as forced abortion in China, no matter what fundemantalists of all religions claim. There are too many issues to decide upon (all coming from the Bible) if one beleives that a woman has no right to privately decide whether she wants a baby, or not. Our equal rights (and responsibilites) are given us by our Creator, and we were not put on this Earth to judge one another, or use politics to force any of us to do what we don't want to do, or can't responsibly afford to do.

Homeschool Mom in AZ
"Honey, you really need to understand that not everyone takes Catholic Theologians as a source of truth. You keep throwing that out there, but only a Catholic takes it seriously. Only Mormons take Joseph Smith seriously. Only Muslims take Mohammad seriously."

Thank you for saying it like it is!
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.