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Tuesday, January 27, 2009
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Out of the Closet on Proposition 8
by Debra J. Saunders
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I voted against Proposition 22, the same-sex marriage ban, in 2000. I figured that if same-sex couples want to marry, why not let them? I believe in marriage. I don't want gay people to feel marginalized. But 61 percent of California voters thought otherwise.

In November, Proposition 8, a follow-up same-sex marriage ban, was on the ballot.

This time, I was so conflicted, I punted. I did not vote either way. I'm not proud of my nonvote, but as I watch the fallout from Proposition 8's 52 percent victory, I've seen things that are forcing me out of my closet.

A slow burn has been building since 2004, when San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom decided that he could flout the state marriage laws and authorize same-sex weddings in City Hall.

Worse, that prank threw the same-sex marriage issue to the courts -- when it was clear that, within a matter of years, California voters would legalize same-sex marriage -- and the issue would be settled for good. Instead, Newsom ensured same-sex marriage would remain a culture-war staple -- while enraging many folks, who as mere citizens can't pick and choose which laws they follow. Then in 2008, by a 4-3 margin, the California Supreme Court decided to reward Newsom's law-breaking. Chief Justice Ron George argued that because the Legislature had passed domestic partnership legislation that confers the same benefits to same-sex couples enjoyed by married heterosexuals (except for the status of official marriage) domestic partnerships "realistically must be viewed as constituting significantly unequal treatment to same-sex couples."

Justice Marvin Baxter's dissenting opinion scolded the majority, noting that the court "does not have the right to erase, then recast, the age-old definition of marriage, as virtually all societies have understood it, in order to satisfy its own contemporary notions of equality and justice."

That sentence hit home.

There has been too little recognition of the fact that marriage has been limited to unions between members of the opposite sex since about as long as there have been laws.

Activists would argue that Prop. 8 "took away" their rights -- as if the five months between the George decision and Prop. 8's passage outweigh thousands of years of human history.

After Canada legalized same-sex marriage in 2005, the government commissioned a study to debunk the argument that same-sex marriage laws could lead to the unintended consequence of legalized polygamy. Oops. The authors supported recognizing polygamy.

Back in California, domestic partnerships provided all the benefits that came with same-sex marriage a la Ron George -- except the name "marriage." And be it noted, the same-sex marriages that occurred during the five months weren't equal to heterosexual marriages either. Couples did not enjoy federal recognition, such as Social Security spousal benefits and family status for immigration purposes.

In other words, when activists complain that Proposition 8 "took away" their rights, the only right changed was the ability to call themselves married under state law. The other benefits stand.

Brookings Institution guest scholar Jonathan Rauch wrote a piece that will appear in the South Texas Law Review that makes a solid "traditionalist" case for same-sex marriage: Gay people exist. They have families. They have children who need legal protection. Rauch sees "marriage's deepest roots in its function rather than its boundaries, and which emphasizes the desire of marrying gay couples to carry forward the ancient tradition rather than to upend it."

He's right. But here's the sticking point. There's a heavy-handedness to the true believers. They use public schools to push their political agenda with young kids. (I know people who were shocked they voted "yes" on Proposition 8, but they did so for that reason.) And the post-passage campaign to intimidate Proposition 8 supporters is chilling. Consider Scott Eckern, Richard Raddon and Marjorie Christofferson, who had to resign from their jobs after their private donations to Proposition 8 were outed.

Others have been subjected to death threats and intimidation. I am writing this column because last week I saw websites publicize the names, addresses and employers of small donors, turned civilian targets.

Even before Proposition 8 passed, San Francisco Superior Court judges voted to bar judges from taking part in the Boy Scouts (because the Boy Scouts bar gay Scout masters); local governments pulled support for similar groups. And those intolerant acts occurred when the state had different laws for different couples.

I couldn't vote against gay couples, but I also couldn't vote to create a new class of pariahs. The gay community's failure to show tolerance is costing it friends.

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Wonderland
Today, the rabbit hole Alice fell into would lead directly to America

There is nothing "gay" about "gays."
These sad sexual deviants want desperately to be called normal, so desperately that they threaten harm to anyone who opposes their agenda. These are intolerant and in many cases simply evil people, as we have seen by their violent actions and attempts to ruin anyone they identify as having an opposing view. They busily corrupt our children in the schools while attempting to bludgeon anyone who disagrees with them (attacking the Boy Scouts, pushing "hate" legislation, et al).

Homosexual marriage, polygamy, pederasty, bestiality, are all of a piece. It starts with the first--sanction it, and down the slope you go.

"Why not let them?" this author asks. Surely she jests, or has never considered the question seriously.

The glorification of homosexuality is a symptom of the moral decay of America.


Saunders! Another Conservative-NOT
Another clueless one who claims to be conservative.

A couple of comments here.

"when it was clear that, within a matter of years, California voters would legalize same-sex marriage -- and the issue would be settled for good. " . And she doesn't have a problem with this??? And why accept the proposition that the voters will approve it within a couple of years anyway. That's liberal thinking. The moment a liberal issue passes the issue is permanently settled but a conservative decision is always subject to reversal??. No conservative thinks this way

" I couldn't vote against gay couples, but I also couldn't vote to create a new class of pariahs". Sounds like another squishy moderate without the courage of her convictions-in fact the entire article indicates another Republican with "Flexible Convictions"

The authors meaning.
Politically correct conservatism. Nothing of principle, just pandering, hoping to not to offend someone, somewhere. That is really too bad.


Americans
have a long history of gagging at the prospect of someone forcing something down our throat. People who will bully their way through, intimidate, legislate, and force acceptance are signing their own death warrant via legislation. If the homosexuals keep pushing hard enough, screaming loud enough, "educating" by indoctrination, there will be not only more state amendments, a move towards the Federal legislation will result.
All this is an aside from the philosophical and moral issues. People who may be wooed towards the new "marriage" definition will increasingly be repulsed enough to take action.
So, homosexuals and your allies, just keep pushing and awake the sleeping giant named "Don't tread on me."

Not So Gay
Back in the early 1970's, when I was in grad school at Cal State Northridge, we had a lesbian guest speaker for my 'Psychology and the Sexual Revolution' class. During her speech she had talked about how the Episcopalian Church was openly supporting Gays and had begun opening their facilities to them. In the question and answer period afterward I was a little harsh in the question I asked her. "What do you think of Christian churches openly supporting homosexuality, being as God has made His opinion perfectly clear?" After getting over her shock at the question, she replied defensively, "We have a right to worship God too." Which is true.

But without God's Word as the standard by which we measure righteousness and morality, and without His Spirit working His love in our hearts and minds for those with whom we disagree, we end up only with 'Each person doing what's right in his own eyes'.

We, as Christians, end up with a legalistic form of Godliness without the power that underlies true Godliness. And we end up with a culture that 'rightfully' rejects that legalism, but is still hungry for a true spirituality. Guess where they go if those who claim to have the truth don't live that truth in the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

There is one who appears as an 'Angel of Light' who is quick and eager to fill that void. We can complain about Sodomites and gay agendas all we want. But, unless we love them with the Agape love of God without compromising God's truth, we're just part of the problem.

"That's So Gay"
See the new commercial in which we are told to "knock it off?" No more ability to say it....not like there's anything wrong with taking away free speech.....

Change of Heart
A few years ago I voted against a constitutional amendment here in Mo defining Marriage as being between two sex couples. However, watching the behavior of the Homosexual community over the last few years whenever they suffer a setback I believe I might vote the other way. I believe they are bullies that employ Nazi like tactics against everyone that disagrees with them. I also believe they are cowards as you notice in the post prop 8 protests not a single one was held in a black community where they might encounter some resistance.

In closing Marriage, like driving, is not a right! If it were you would not get a license to partake in it.

Thats all I have to say about that!


Secret Ballot
We no longer have a true secret ballot as identified by this article. Campaign contributions are a pretty clear indication of how a person may vote on a particular issue, and therefore removes privacy that should be associated with voting.

D. J. Saunder’s article stated: "And the post-passage campaign to intimidate Proposition 8 supporters is chilling. Consider Scott Eckern, Richard Raddon and Marjorie Christofferson, who had to resign from their jobs after their private donations to Proposition 8 were outed."

Public record of political contributions violates privacy.

Every man has the right to marry a woman, and every woman can marry a man. There is no discrimination.

Nature discriminates against homosexual couples. Is there any evidence any homosexual couples giving birth to biologically conceived children? Civil marriage recognizes the natural union between men and women to produce the future of mankind. If all couples were homosexual, mankind would be extinct. Therefore, homosexual relationships will never be equal in the law of nature.

Why should governments recognize what nature does not?

Immoral Behavior
Marriage was originally a religious ceremony between a man, a woman and God. For various reasons, the state decided it had an interest in regulating what was previously a religious ceremony. The people of the State of California reaffirmed the notion that marriage should be between a man and a woman and should not include relationships that many see as immoral. The people have every right to legislate against immoral behavior that is destructive to the very foundation of our society. God help us if the state begins endorsing and sanctioning what most view as immoral behavior in the sacred ceremony of marriage.

Fabius Cunctator
To follow up on your theme, our rights either have to come from God or from government. If they come from God, why not interpret them in the light of God's law?

If they come from man (government) then they are no more "real" than the whims of the masses. In which case, majority rule should always prevail and rights can be granted ro withdrawn at will.

Personally, I think they come from God, as the alternative is too scary.

State Sanctioning and Endorsement
In a state (in the broad sense) which sanctions and endorses abortion amd partial birth abortion, refuses medical assistance to infants born live as the result of botched abortions, and refuses medical treatment to older citizens but offers assisted suicide as an option to save money, what is the significance of a few "gay marriages" here and there?

At least, if "gaiety" is genetic, their inability to procreate should have long term beneficial effects.

The truth about gay marriage
has nothing to do with rights or equality.
It has two purposes:
1) Forced societal moral acceptance.

2) Such a law would obliterate the freedom of religion clause in the Constitution. We've already seen it happen in Mass.

Catholic Charities had to close their doors after 100 years of adoption services because the State forced them to place children in gay homes. Congress shall make NO LAW abridging the freedom of religion?

E-Harmony was sued in court and settled by providing gay services.

A church with beachfront property was sued for refusing to rent their facility to wed lesbians. The courts forced the church to rent their facility.

Imagine married gay couples leaving California for all parts of the U.S. Immediately law suits would arise for not recognizing the marriage.

Pastors and churches sued for refusing to marry gay people.

That is the true intent, destruction of the 1st amendment clause.

Lastly, why would a group of people, who work so hard to show their individuality against everything heterosexual, want to adopt what has always been known as a heterosexual institution?

We have to understand what this is really about before it's too late.

If one can't see through
the "gay marriage" scam, what else can't they see through?

I'm Scared
I donated to the "Yes on 8" campaign and I'm scared. My name is on the list and I have been subjected to harrassment. So far, my job is secure, but I don't know how long my employer can or will hold out against the intimidation. If (or when) this comes to a vote again, will I donate? I don't know. That's the point and that's the plan. The Prop h8ers ("No on 8") are winning and they know it.

Marriage
This isn't about marriage, it is about power, acceptance, and approval. Within days of the passage of homosexual marriage, there will be insistance that all churches be willing to perform them - or their tax exempt status will be eliminated. Next, hate crimes legislation will be enacted al a Canada that will outlaw any message against homosexuality. These are not tolerant people - the spirit of force will be in control.

Lost in musing
What more does the author need to see what is happening? Ignoring the will of the people, judicial abuse, hatred for the rule of law and our Judeo-Christian heritage and culture charaterize this movement. What is really amazing is that California voted against Proposition 8. It shows that there are still clear headed citizens unlike the author of this column who sat on the sidelines while her country literally wanders toward Sodom & Gomorrah. She even sees the real goal of the destruction of marriage (polygamy anyone?) but even that does not persuade her. With friends like this....

The solution to the problem
Gays are pushing to legalize their "unions" for a number of reasons. Being considered "normal", whatever that is, is one of them. But the biggest and best argument they have are the priveleges granted to marry couples. There are also responsibilities, but I leave that for another discussion.

The problems arise when governments construct laws in such a manner as to entice people to behave in certain ways. Governments have created incentives to encourage certain behaviors such as marriage. To then deny those privileges to some individuals is a denial of their rights to equal protection.

The ONLY solution, in my ever to be humble libertarian opinion, is to get government OUT of the busisness of herding people like cattle into one decision or another. It is NOT governments business to mold and shape individual decisions by creating artificial incentives through the passage of tax breaks.

Eliminating ALL tax breaks and implementing a flat tax, or the Fair Tax, is the quickest way to ending this problem. There will still be some gays who wish to "marry", so government must get out of the marriage business altogether. It is not there role or responsibility. If two people wish to enter into a legal union, fine, let them. But leave marriage to the churches and synogogues.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY


sjpatejak in DC...
you may want to research and read the Pink Swastika. I can send you a pdf version if you're interested in reading it. You can email me at todfrog13@yahoo.com

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Better job of proof reading ...
is in order. Sorry about using "there" instead of the correct "their", "marry" instead of "married", and "I" instead of "I'll". There may be more, but I think you get the point. (i.e. my grammar is horrible!).

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

RIGHTS
Homosexuals have the exact same rights and restrictions to marriage as all other people.
I could not marry my mother, adult daughter, son, multiple wives, children or men. Same with homosexuals. They do have the right to marry people of the opposite sex, however, just like anyone else. They do have the right to marry.
If homosexual marriage is the law, all restrictions on types of marriage will be considered discrimination.
Right now, in Canada, there is a trial going on against some polygamists. Their defense is that the government cannot discriminate against polygamy if it recognizes homosexual marriage. I would not be surprised if they are found not guilty.

Government and Culture
The natural law and culture supporting marriage existed before government was around to endorse it. Government does not and should not create natural laws, it creates civil laws. Civil union is the best government can do for homosexuals.

Every person has the right to marry another of the opposite sex and have that recognized as a marriage. Homosexuals feel they are being denied some right because of their homosexual condition that prevents them from being attracted to the opposite sex. Somehow that's the governemnt's fault.

To truetolife
you state:"
"That's So Gay"
See the new commercial in which we are told to "knock it off?" No more ability to say it....not like there's anything wrong with taking away free speech....."

I may not agree with their politics, but I do admire this commercial (not the message, but the WAY it is conveyed...just going by your post, haven't seen the ad).

It is not taking away free speech (unless they are trying to make saying that illegal), they are using very sound tactics to change the way people think.

I worked for many years with people who were severe/pround MR/DD. My children knew I did not tolerate "retarded" comments in their speech. When one of their friends said, "that is so retarded" I was proud when I heard them reply, "we don't use that word like that here".
That is the power to change lives.


This column
is a perfect example of why critical thinking is important. Many assume that because Debra Saunders has column printed in papers, as well as online, that she is educated. That is elitism, pervasive in our society today, without merit.

Here is a simple fact for Debra. Traditions have a history and behind that history there is a reason. Learn it.

I will not be bullied by gay activists and their cohorts. Under the arguments they present for gay marriage we would also have to allow polygamy, bestiality and all sorts of deviancy. Remember what equality is and how it is meted out in our courts.

This country is a nation of extremes and always has been. Look at all the issues, including abortion and homosexuality, that has run amuck. We went from abortions being allowed the first trimester to abortions being allowed any time. We went from abortions being allowed for adults, to abortions being allowed for children without parental consent. Now we have botched abortions and we debate whether the child deserves to live since it was never the intent of the mother. Does anyone really think that homosexuality will be any different? If you do, I have a big red bridge to sell you for cheap, because history has proven over and over otherwise.

Pandora's box has been opened.

There are no valid human rights that

involve performing evil actions. Sodomy is an evil action.

Michael of Illinois
On the money!

Stacey
Sorry but you are incorrect. It is taking free speech away but using fascist tactics. It starts with the subliminal then moves to the courts. How in the heck do you think all the lopsided hate crimes legislation has come about anyway?

So if you like we won't say "that's so gay" we will say "that's so homosexual" and we will also say "that's so mentally deficient".

PC'ism under the guise of intellect obscures the truth and the consequences.

Cole Front
I do see and understand where you are coming from since I am on the various lists also.

Fascists will always win if we constantly cave into them.

Have the courage of your convictions.

Ted Haggard is Obama man
Ted Haggard is the type of conservative that President Obama seek. He is looking for one to have something over his head, bribery and extortion. In the name of national security all religious leaders accused of sexual misconduct with members of their congrecgation, youths and the handicapped should be order to have DNA test for the protection of society as a hold. By allowing the continual conduct then congregations, ministries, and churches suffer for the action of rapist, pedophiles, and sexual deviants. Today congregations are being forced out of their place of worship behind sexual deviants from California to Massachusetts.

Simple facts
Same sex "marriage" is not about equality. Gays are already equal. Just because a gay man CHOOSES not to marry a woman does not mean he CANNOT marry. The option is there, he just chooses, based on his peculiar sexual tendency, not to. What gays want is not equality, it is the special privilege of redefining marriage to suit their peculiar tendencies (Peculiar, by the way, means "distinguishing of a group" not just "strange").

They claim a "right" based solely and explicitly on their behavior and behavior, good or bad, is never a ground for GRANTING rights, only for taking them away. (A bank robber loses his right to freedom (among many others) because of his behavior, i.e. robbing banks.) Any "right" granted to any group of people that does not apply to other people is not a right, it's a privilege. If gays can redefine marriage to suit their tendencies and a polygamist, pedophile, or animal "lover" cannot, it becomes a privilege of gays.

And lest you think that heterosexuals defined it based solely on THEIR peculiar tendencies, marriage sprung out of the need to create and raise families so as to continue the species. The human race would still thrive without homosexual acts. It cannot survive without heterosexual acts.

Lolo1
You are missing my point.
Promoting a way of thinking by using media is NOT limiting free speech.

***I was not talking about this particular message, but the WAY they have chosen to get their message across.***

It is similar to the anit-smoking campaign towards kids. You show a bunch of kids stating how uncool it is to smoke. Same with drugs.
Imagine that same commercial but instead of "that's so gay", the message was about saying "that's so retarded".

"So if you like we won't say "that's so gay" we will say "that's so homosexual" and we will also say "that's so mentally deficient"."

The point isn't the exact words used, it is what those words intend. "that's so retarded", like calling someone a 'crip', 'foureyes', etc. Allowing these in our speech devalues the lives of those that are MR/DD, disabled and wear glasses.

If you can get past the message of this ad, you can see how the structure of it is very effective.

Marginalization
is the only proper response to those who childishly refuse to accept that some things can't be changed simply because somebody's offended or feels 'left out'.

The settled lesbians down the street don't bother anyone. Neither does the 'bachelor' pair that minds its own business. Both may own joint properties including bank accounts. Both may take out life insurance on their respective partners. Both may leave their estates to their respective partners. They can call each other 'spouse' if that turns 'em on; we all know that's like saying black is white, but whatever. But neither has the right to claim 'marginalization' when, if choosing to throw public tantrums (and receiving the well-deserved cold shoulder in return) they show they won't accept what civilization has always known: that marriage is meant for men and women, not man and man or woman and woman.

I agree with Happy Jake
100%. There is nothing more to it. The gay community wants SPECIAL privileges on top of the ones we ALL have already. Now THAT is not fair.

Well
I agree with the California AG:

"there is no justification to shield donors from post-election reporting requirements. Rather, these requirements help to prevent kickbacks, laundering, and other improper uses of campaign funds."

Brown said that any instances of violence or harassment against donors “are deeply regrettable,” but California’s civil and criminal justice systems are the appropriate venues to seek relief from potentially illegal conduct.

If anyone I knew decided not to shop at a store owned by a prop 8 supporter, I would say: "good for you!"

If anyone I knew verbally harassed a prop 8 supporter, I would say "Cool it and learn some manners"

If anyone I knew committed a criminal act against a prop 8 supporter, I would notify local law enforcement immediately.

A few bad apples are not the basis for judging all gay people. Unless one is prejudiced, of course.

of course
I may be speaking to the wrong audience. There is a lot of anti-gay prejudice in this thread.

My thoughts
I would agree with Allen for the most part.

However, I think the gay community overacted and has done more to damage their cause than help it. I can understand the anger and resentment from the gay community for people that voted for prop 8 and/or gave money or support to the pro prop 8 movement. I think it's ugly that we as a people can conscientiously allow this thinly disguised discrimination against same-sex couples. But, the people voted and they approved prop 8. There has to be a certain amount of respect for it, no matter how much you disagree.

Attacking the people who supported the law doesn't help the same-sex marriage cause. Rather, it shows the pettiness of those who would demand tolerance and equality but be unwilling to give it in return. Anger and bitterness is no excuse for immature behavior and it certainly doesn't help advance the cause.

Legalized same-sex marriages with the full rights of heterosexual marriages, including federal recognition, are coming. It's inevitable as the voting block becomes younger and more socially tolerant. I think the anti-prop 8 folks that are having a very public temper tantrum should remember that and try to contain themselves, as much as I sympathize with their position. It's not always about what's right or wrong but what will help the most in the long run.

Not everyone speaking out against
'gay marriage' is "anti-gay".

I speak out against it, because like others I see 'down the road' a law saying you can marry anyone you like or anything you like. WHY have laws demanding that someone be 'of legal age?'

Reading some of the original wordings of these "gay marriage proposals" would make anyone blush. They say NOTHING about any barrier: neither sex, age, animals, or amounts of participants.

A woman in (Denmark or UK) recently "married" a dolphin!

Perverts and Deviants
Rhetorical questions: Why should disgusting behavior be rewarded by bestowing the sanctity of marriage on these deviants? By extension: Why not include bestiality under the marriage banner? ... Why not change the law to provide unlimited human fodder to serial killers as a right? There is no end to the insane arguments made to defend unnatural, deviant, immoral, and harmful behavior! The dignity of society must be preserved and behavior must be rooted in morality, healthy impulses, and the good example of loving parents in traditional families. Period!

Society has the right and duty to discriminate against dangerous, threatening, and various inappropriate behaviors not suitable to the smooth functioning of its interactions. This is where gays must not be treated the same as natural man/woman unions with children called “families” who are the bedrock of society. Gay’s lifestyle, hence associated behaviors, do not resemble natural unions no matter how they try to camouflage their repulsive acts. If allowed to raise kids they will impose their views, directly or not, of deviant lifestyle as normal. These kids will be confused of their own identity at best, lose their sense of direction/purpose in life, and, at worse, be subject to depression and suicide. Other negatives abound. This is not something society should sanction!

Can you imagine what a farce the courts would be subject to with gay "divorce" (which will be much more frequent and theatrical than with normal marriages)? As a taxpayer, I sure don't want to foot that bill or be assaulted by tabloid headlines while going through the supermarket line.

Everyone should display prejudice

against the evil acts of sodomy. It is by opposing evil that we dilute its effects.

Stacey
Sorry but you miss my point. First of all calling a spade a spade and reaping the consequences of that is far more honest. Secondly the only thing those ads do is isolate people with back door negativity to get conformity.

They are subversive to say the least.


Stacey
"I think it's ugly that we as a people can conscientiously allow this thinly disguised discrimination against same-sex couples."


Here is an example of what I am talking about. Read that sentence above. On the surface it is rather innocuous, but the underlying message in it is because one disagrees with gay marriage they are discriminatory.

O.
All of your views are based on nothing but your negative view of homosexuality. It's fine if you find homosexuality repulsive but don't think that your making any kind of objective points. Studies have shown that children raised by homosexual parents have the same variations as children raised by heterosexual parents. The evidence simply does not support your claims about how bad same-sex parents are. Of course, that doesn't matter when you're basing your views on your own revulsion rather than reality.

Vote Yes on 88!
Prop 88 defines marriage as being between two consenting adults of two different religions.

The benefits to the state and society are obvious.

There can be no objection because the same rules apply to everyone. You can marry and get all the rights and responsibilities of marriage; you just can't marry someone of the same religion.

Anyone calling for same-religion marriage (a disgusting thought when you think about it) is asking for special rights.

Vote Yes on 88!

That, lolo1, is because it is.
"On the surface it is rather innocuous, but the underlying message in it is because one disagrees with gay marriage they are discriminatory."

Vote Yes on Prop 88!

lolo
One who disagrees with gay marriage is being discriminatory.

There is no question about that.

The issue is whether there is a rational basis or legitimate policy reason to support that discrimination.

Societal Stupidity
What has happened in the last 49 years in this country? The very idea of people trying to redefine the concept of marriage is simply insane. Consider the case of two lesbians who got "married". One of the two has a daughter who is physically related to her. The two women are now divorced and the non related woman is suing for custody of the daughter who isn't even related to her!!! This is the insanity of same-sex marriage. How can someone sue for custody of a child who does not even share any DNA???? The further insanity is that she may win! The courts have become penny wise and pound stupid.
The very idea of marriage being changed or redefined in defiance of a clear majority of the will of the people by the courts means that the will of the people means nothing! We are now at the mercy of the minority as defined by the even smaller minority of the judges and government officials who now dictate how we the majority are to see things or live our lives. What's left?

Discriminating against evil acts

like sodomy and abortion are obligations for right thinking people!!!!

Amazing
isn't it how a few can totally obliterate today's society in the U.S. This is a country based on Judeo-Christian principles. A democrat republic that provides freedom to it's citizens and guarantees life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Then a group of people, gays in this case, come along and try to coopt tolerance, human rights et al to force the people to do their bidding as if they have standing to do so. People, this is your country, many have fought to keep it free, if you don't want to stand up to it's principles and concepts, then it will cease to exist. There are more of you than the homosexuals, so stick to your guns and put them in their place. What is that? Behave as good citizens of this country, obey it's laws and if you don't succeed in changing it through appropriate legislative processes, then live with it or move to another country. Just because some moron wants to change the definition of marriage, normalcy, human rights etc. doesn't make it so. That includes judges who betray their fellow citizens by legislating from the bench.

Mellor SJ2, Prop 88 is unconstitutional
Prop 88 would make sense if it was designed, like Prop 8, to prohibit the state from sanctioning behavior widely held to be immoral and abhorent. Unfortunately for you, Prop 88, as you describe, discriminates based on status (religion) which the Supreme Court has said violates the 1st Amendment. The U.S. Constitution does not require the state to sanction immoral or abhorent behavior such as polygamy, incestuous marriages, or marriages between adults and minors. After Long v. Texas, the state may not criminalize homosexual behavior, but the state may regulate who can enter into marriage. The state has a legitimate basis for regulating marriage, and the people of the state of California have spoken on how they want marriage regulated.

Allen is wrong
Biology discriminates against homosexuality by disallowing it to reproduce.

Of what possible level of intelligence would a government be if it denies the very rules by which society exists in the first place? Some who engages in homosexual activity is railing against their own sexuality, which is either MALE or FEMALE. Homosexuality is a denial of truth and heterosexuality is simply an acknowledgement of the way things are.

Anything else is a perversion.

Re: Hal
Great points! What is so sad about the case you mentioned, is what is best for this young girl. All in selfishness the one lesbian woman is wanting to force her way to have the right to this child and not considering what is best for this little girl, sad, very sad. This is what I see time and time again, the whole same sex marriage issue is based on selfishness, my rights and what I deserve, it's not about what's best for society and it is especially not about what's best for children when they are involved.

NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT
I personally think marriage should be between one man and one woman, probably because of my Christian upbringing. I also realize that gay marriage doesn't infringe on the sanctity of heterosexual marriage one iota.

There's one thing I know for certain. Homosexuals feel discriminated against, and maybe with good reason. With that being the case, who am I, or Mrs. Saunders, to tell them how to react to a perceived transgression against them. It's amazing how violators of civil rights (and gays view this as a civil rights issue) expect the discriminated to protest in a manner pleasing to the discriminator.

Saunders cites death threats aimed at supporters of Prop 8, but fails to cite an example. She states supporters are being intimidated, but this simply may be prop 8 opponents firmly standing ground against supporters. As far as I know, there hasn't even been an instance of assault.

Later on why the bible isn't consistent with legislating against gay marriage.

OLBERMANN ROCKS

I do not believe people with

a homosexual sexual orientation should be discriminated against based on their orientation.

However, without a doubt practioners of sodomy should be discriminated against absolutely and eternally.

When they talked about abortions
I thought, it's no one's right to dictate what any woman does with her body. And even IF you think that the child is truly a child, it may be 'better off' not being born to someone who doesn't WANT it.

30 years later, we have 10 and 11 year old CHILDREN going for abortions without any parental notification, without any child abuse charges being brought against those who impregnate them.

(And don't even get me started on partial-birth abortions - even the THOUGHT of which is abhorrent.)

And, fathers have absolutely NO SAY at all in any reproduction. Just a 'sperm donor' and a 'child care check.'

So UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES occur.

Lolo1
It doesn't matter if you agree with gay marriage or not. The act of barring same-sex marriages while allowing opposite-sex marriages is discrimination against same-sex couples. Extending the rights to one group while preventing another group from receiving the same rights is, ding ding ding, discrimination!

Nate is wrong
Study after study after study after study has shown that children growing up with homosexual 'parents' do worse in virtually every criteria, be it school marks, engagement in sex at an earlier age, crime, depression, etc. etc.

The reports she is quoting are clearly false and unreliable.

Let us now consider the male homosexual act - the rectum is not made for it, and the risk of AIDS and other diseases is so much greater with anal sex compared with normal sex. The vagina is setup to resist disease, contains elastic fibers and has a lining cell wall layer 20 to 45 cells thick. The rectum is specifically setup to absorb fluids and the lining is only one cell thick. And contains NO elastic fibers. And ALSO contains these neat little transport cells called M-cells that effectively facilitate the invasion of HIV because they deliver the virus to its target in about 10 minutes. M-cells are not present in the vagina.

So when you read someone like Nate, know that she hasn't got a clue because she wants thinking people to accept something idiotic about their own human physiology.

Stacey
I also worked with ED children and I know a little about what the power of changing lives is about. But first, we have to HAVE those lives in order to respect them and, by helping them, we help ourselves.
Choose Life!!!!

Nate,

whether barring same-sex couples from marriage is discriminatory or not is irrelevant. The real question is whether or not said discrimination is illegal.

Maybe this is news to you, but not all discrimination is illegal.

You might be more effective if you could talk about what makes the ban against same-sex couples illegal, especially since not all discrimination is illegal.

Hal
I don't know the specifics of that case but I was under the impression that step-parents do not have any parental rights over a child as far as custody and such unless they have legally adopted that child. If the woman in question did, they are legally a parent and would be subject to the same laws as a heterosexual couple who have children together.

Again though, I am not familiar with this case or with the law in the state this is taking place in. In any case, this is more a problem with child custody law than a same-sex couple.

MARRIAGE HAS ALWAYS EVOLVED
In the Old Testament, polygamous marriage was sanctioned (remember King Solomon's 700 wives) and taking child brides was rampant. Women were viewed as property and rarely had input concerning who they married. Even within this generation, laws against interracial marriages were on the book. And opponents of interracial marriage used some of the same arguments against gay marriage: i.e., if a white person can marry a black person, what's to stop him from marrying a man, animal, multiple wives, etc....

The institution of marriage has always evolved over time. I can understand gays thinking it's time it evolved to include them.

OLBERMANN ROCKS

gay 'marriage' will affect everybody
Google JD Unwin.

Corporations, particularly multinationals, will defend their brand because they recognize what damage a counterfeit will do to their brand, even though the original is unchanged. Over a longer time, people will no longer respect the brand, and that is why marriage between a man and woman MUST be defended.

People who say "how will it affect YOUR marriage?" obviously haven't thought it through.

Marriage only exists to facilitate the wellbeing of children and hold men accountable to women. It exists for the NEXT generation, otherwise, what possible interest does the government have in two (or more) people who love each other? Are we going to have love tests in the future to check if people are still legitimately married?


Hello Tom
"Prop 88 would make sense if it was designed, like Prop 8, to prohibit the state from sanctioning behavior widely held to be immoral and abhorent."

I see. So it's OK for the state to legislate against private behavior that is immoral and abhorrent, eh?

Good. For I find most religious behavior immoral and abhorrent, and I am especially concerned about the child abuse that is religious education. All I need is to persuade a majority that this is so ("widely held") and Bingo!

"Unfortunately for you, Prop 88, as you describe, discriminates based on status (religion) which the Supreme Court has said violates the 1st Amendment."

Hardly. You can be a catholic or a mormon if you like. You just can't marry someone who holds the same beliefs.

"The state has a legitimate basis for regulating marriage, and the people of the state of California have spoken on how they want marriage regulated."

Quite so. No special rights for the religious!

Vote Yes on Prop 88!

Mark111
First off, I am a he.

Secondly, it's no business of the government or you to determine the validity or morality of the way two consenting adults choose to have sex. Anal sex does not affect anyone outside of the two people engaging in it.

I no longer have the links but in a previous thread here on TH, someone had posted a list of studies that directly refute your claim that "study after study after study..." has shown children in homosexual households do worse. I don't have them here to repost and my apologies for that. I doubt it would make a difference anyway as you would probably assert that the "studies" that you mention are right and the rest are wrong. A study is not right or wrong based on your own opinions so when you say that the studies which I mention are unreliable and false, you're basing this completely on nothing.


"Unintended consequences"
What would prohibit a 30 year old man from marrying a child of 5 years? (Boy or girl, makes no difference.)

What would prohibit a man from marrying his 'favorite' sheep?

What would prohibit one man (or woman) from marrying 8 other people of any sex?

ONCE you say that marriage can be between any 'consenting adults' you have limited it. And someone will claim discrimination. And, if we don't fight this "discrimination" (which to most people is right and normal) - what can POSSIBLY stop us from fighting any OTHER "discrimination?"

Eddie Too
You're right, not all discrimination is illegal. However, I was only replying to someone that argued that same-sex marriage discrimination is not discrimination at all, which it clearly is.

Evolving Marriage
For Darice in Arkansas,

God never ever sanctioned multiple marriages. Anytime man married more than one woman, treated his wife as less of a human, pentrated another man, slept with a donkey, or slept with a child, it was in direct contradiction to God's commandment. Solomon was wrong, King David, his father was wrong. Darice, what was King Solomon's penalty for not following the law of God even though he built the first Jewish temple and was wise above all others? What happened to his kingdom (Israel) because of his disobedience? Take a look in that dust covered book on your shelf (or in your attic) and let us know.

Rober

MArk
Noramlly I would just let someon elike you rant away, but you are presenting too much information as truth which is in fact, false.

You claim there are studies which prove that children of gay couples perform differentially in significant ways. If these exist, please cite them.

Rober
"Anytime man married more than one woman, treated his wife as less of a human, pentrated another man, slept with a donkey, or slept with a child, it was in direct contradiction to God's commandment."

Oh yeah? Ever talk to the mormons?

And Speaking of Multiple Marriages
Where in the Bible was the very first multiple marriage mentioned and what part did God have in this decision? And what part did God have in a man deciding to have anal sex with another man? It is all there in black and white. Little soundbites we hear from others about "Leviticus" and "Sodom" are surface issues to develop easy arguments against Christians who never pick their Bible up and read it. The answers are there. Look for yourself.

Rober

Rober,

you are right. Sadly, many people are biblically illiterate. They can quote verses that support their limited worldview, but have no idea how to put it all in one context.

That is why I seldom engage anyone in theological discussions. It is usually a waste of time.

It is kind of like asking your auto mechanic what to do about your nausea and dizziness.

Well now
teh differentiating characteristic between gay marriage and marriage to children would be the ability to consent. That is why we have an age of consent for sexual relations and an age at which individuals may marry of their own free will.


I know that bestiality is a favorite topic of conservatives...I really do wonder why...but you need not worry. Animals cannot form the requisite consent.

No on Prop 88
MellorSJ2,

Unfortunately, you don't understand my the basis for my argument, and I apologize if I did not make it more clear. Simply saying marriage between two people of different religions is immoral does not make it so. Again, the U.S. Constitution protects all of us from discrimination based on religious beliefs. I think you would agree the state has the right to regulate marriage and may prohibit marriage in certain circumstances. For example, the state may prohibit marriage between a man and his daughter because the state has an interest in not sanctioning incestuous conduct. Some marriages, such as interracial or interreligious marriages are protected by the U.S. Constitution and cannot be regulated out of existence by the state. The state cannot discriminate against marriages based on status, i.e., race and religion. But may regulate marriages based on conduct that is not protected by the U.S. Constitution, i.e., polygamous, incestuous or homosexual marriages.

Nate is Delusional...at best
First of all disgust for unnatural behavior AND the consequences thereof are what I’m addressing. All people since the beginning of time discriminate: Think saber-tooth tiger versus antelope; one will eat you, the other will feed you. Society has the right and duty to discriminate against the dangerous.
Second: Homosexuality is an aberration of nature and unacceptable deviate behavior in civilized society. I believe in "live and let live" but those kinds of unions should always end in extinction of that line (no progeny). By bastardizing the system that protects civil society from deviate behavior we are embarked on an ugly debasing of what humanity is about: Families (naturally derived) and the continuation of the human race with some semblance of sanity. More and more these deviants are trying to push their agenda on malleable children…that’s totally unacceptable!
Third: I seriously question any research validating what you say and I'm confident that they will be either discredited as biased or otherwise flawed and the true picture will emerge, hopefully before these perverts cause irreparable damage to children. Although I'm fully capable of evaluating studies based on real merit, whatever you nebulously claim smells of two week old herrings. Fourth: I rely on my gut and common sense to a large degree; not abstract baloney you blather about.

MellorSJ2
Ummm,

And they are the authority on God and the Bible and what it says? If it suits you, pick up that Old King James Version, or the even older Wycliffe translation and read for yourself. Polygamy and most of the other beliefs the mormons have are false. Why? Because I say so? No. Just start in Genesis and read through the first 11 chapters. God speaks a commandment and generally just a chapter or two later, man defies it and makes an excuse for what he does. No different from today. Don't get your information on God and salvation and the truth from the mormons. Thanks for pointing that out.

Rober

John
So, if a daughter is 18 and can consent, you're okay with the state sanctioning a marriage with her father?

Rober
There are as many answers in the bible as in the Da Vinci Code.

Moreover, the latter is more believable.

Let the wicked declare
Cutting through the layers of lies and deception lets see what we find. A movement that is motivated by evil. No respect for authority. No desire to coexist with other moral beliefs. No limit to the extent that every boundary of human behavior is challenged and destroyed with the ultimate result....chaos, confusion,anarchy, division, hatred, brutish and brutal behavior to themselves and all who they can seduce. This is anti-Christ.It showed up in the garden of Eden, it is alive and well in America, and is like a fire. It never stops until put out or it runs out of fuel. It will never say, "OK, that's enough." (Go ahead and look at Canada)

Pray for America that God would forgive us of our sins and deliver us from our enemies. You cannot legislate this wicked spirit into submission. Only God has the power to deliver people who will repent.

Nothing will change if people look to man for help and deny Jesus Christ.

Same Sex and Sex with animals
John in PA,

I am able to clear that up for you! It is not a conservative topic - it is a biblical topic. Even if I wanted to agree with same sex marriage, I can't - it is important to be able to put someone else's desire above your own. This is the problem that man has had since his creation. Rebellion. He says - why can't I do this or that? It pleases me so I will do it. I will make the pieces fit - because it makes me feel good and excites me. Who are you to say it is right or wrong? I don't know your God. Nope, you don't, and you have a choice, and choices have consequences. The biblical arguments FOR same sex marriage are wrong - not ONCE did God ever sanction, condone, allow, or promote it. It is difficult for anyone to hear someone else say what they are doing is immoral. Heck, I want to smoke 3 or 4 cigars a day and they are bad for me. I hate hearing about it from my wife. But right is right...it's tough hearing it, I know.

Rober

wow...
All i can say is wow. I'm an independant - i lean republican. I tend to stay in the middle - You know what my biggest turn off of the party is? The religious zealots of the right and socialist zealots of the left.

Its no wonder the republicans lost if these posts are the norm of the republican party. You do realize that not everyone is a Catholic correct? That every governmental decision doesnt have to be OK'd by the bible.

The over-zealous religious of the right are whats causing younger people to head left - noone wants religion shoved down their throat.

Get back to the issue - and away from "The bible says..." and the party may have a chance to correct itself. Until then - embrace the minority of government rule, because thats where the republican party will stay. And its really sad, because the Democrats are not the answer...

The only discrimination
Happening here is the use of the term marriage, no two people of the same sex are being denied anything or being discriminated against. For years in the state of California two people of same sex can have a civil ceremony and have all the same rights as married couples do, you just can't call it marriage.

Two people of the same sex being in a union as marriage is fine, but the term marriage has always been defined as between a man and woman and always should, that is what marriage is. It's like taking a defined thing that is a minority in society and saying we have to change it's definition because it feels left out and discriminated against. Why stop with redefining marriage. And as someone else pointed out all forms of any other relationship are discriminated against outside of a man and woman when it comes to the word marriage. I mean since I can't marry 4 woman my right to this is being discriminated against.

Bible Vs. Da Vinci Code
MellorSJ2,

The problem with your argument is you have most surely seen the entire movie and read the entire thriller of a book about DaVinci's Code, but any man who has ever sat down and read through the Bible would have a different opinion than you. Let me give you an example showing you have never looked to the Bible for answers - that you are actually taking two surface topics that have nothing to do with each other and throwing them together to be able to "hang" in the argument. Two VERY simple questions that anyone who has ever even briefly read the Bible with any effort will know the answers to: The writer of most of the New Testament had two names. One before his conversion and one after. His names are? This is a very basic question that anyone should know if they have looked to the Bible as a believable source of information. Second, he was first named after the very first King of Israel. What was that man's name? Two easy questions to show one has read the Bible all the way through. Thanks...

Rober

Tom writes
"Unfortunately, you don't understand my the basis for my argument"

I believe I do. As I understand it, your argument is (a) that the state has some reasons to prohibit certain marriages, and (b) the religious protection clauses of the constitution would make Prop 88 unconstitutional.

But I don't think you understand my argument. The proponents of Prop 8 claim that gays are not denied any rights because they--like the rest of the population--can marry anyone they like so long as they are of the opposite sex. They also claim that the state has the right to legislate against same-sex marriage because, well, they don't like the thought of, say, two men adopting a child.

I claim the same. Prop 88 does not deny any religious person the right to marry anyone they choose--just so long as they are of different religions. The state has a legitimate interest in blocking such marriages because, well, I (and those who will vote for Prop 88) don't like the idea of parents indoctrinating their children and abusing them psychologically with stories of 'hell.'

I accept that there are religious protection issues, but I'm sure they can be got around, just like Prop 8 has so far managed to avoid a head-on collision with the Fourteenth Amendment.

ROBER
Talk about revisionist history. Anyone who reads the old testament and can't see that polygamy was sanctioned by God has an agenda.

Well Rober, do you remember the story of David and Bathsheba. David wasn't admonished by God for taking Bathsheba as his wife. He already had many wives. God'd anger arose because David had Bathsheba's husband killed so he could marry Bethsheba. His sin was envy and covetness (if that's a word) not taking another wife.

Maybe it's time you started comprehending the book so close to you that you probably read on a daily basis.

OLBERMANN ROCKS

To Darice
Actually, the polygamous ways of OT men invariably caused problems: apostasy, family breakup, and rebellion, for example. The reason that those stories were included in scriptures was NOT to claim that these are things that people *should* do, but rather to show what people *actually* did and how it caused trouble when they didn't follow God's intent.

God's intent is clearly established in Genesis 2:24: "For this reason a man will leave his parents and cleave to his WIFE (singular) and they will become one flesh".

Genesis 2:24 says nothing about 'casual sex', polygamy, or homosexuality.

And to Keith
I am actually with you. My point is always to dissuade others from quoting, using the Bible when they know very little about it. In other words, "you want to talk Bible and religion? ok, let's talk it". Most people can't. They don't read it - they hear about it. I am not a conservative zealot, I am a follower of Christ - we don't have to talk about the Bible. DON'T bring it up - if you do, be ready to talk about it. The same sex arguments are not consistent with biblical statements. So let's move on. Why can't a homosexual say "I am gay, my beliefs are in opposition to God and that is okay with me". If you try to make your beliefs fit, you will hear the "biblical" side - if you use other "social" arguments you will get a different argument from conservatives, most educated Christians, and others as well. So...you and I are on the same page.

Rober

jking has it wrong
when s/he writes: "For years in the state of California two people of same sex can have a civil ceremony and have all the same rights as married couples do, "

There are 1100 rights and responsibilities that apply at the Federal level to married couples that do not apply to civil unions.

http://www.gao.gov/archive/1997/og97016.pdf

You people really need to eradicate this lie.

MARK111
Mark111 says "Marriage only exists to facilitate the wellbeing of children and hold men accountable to women. It exists for the NEXT generation, otherwise, what possible interest does the government have in two (or more) people who love each other? Are we going to have love tests in the future to check if people are still legitimately married?"

I assume you would agree that once the children are fully grown and can support themselves, all federal and state benefits married couples receive should be taken away since they are no longer needed for the care of children? Assuming you are married, will you happily agree to forgo giving your social security benefits to your spouse and vice versa?

Tom
Your argument is at least defensible. Most arguments against gay marriage are not. However, that doesn't mean it's valid or convincing.

At one time, inter-racial marriage was illegal. The courts built on previous cases and determined that, because marriage was a fundamental human right, states could not violate that right on racial grounds. There was no compelling state interest.

Now, it may be the case that the Supreme Court will determine that states can violate that right in the case of same sex marriage. They may find that states have an arbitrary right to do so or they may conclude htey do have a compellign state interest.

Or it may find otherwise. It may find that states do not have the authority to arbitrarily make that decision. We just do not know. But we do know that if a state chooses to allow gay marriage or includes homosexuals in the list of protected classes at the state level, then SCOTUS will not overturn.

As to your question about incest. Incest is a variable concept. Some states allow marriage with first cousins. In other states, that would be considered incest and such a marriage would not be allowed. The rationale for preventing incest has always been potential genetic abnormalities. That concern may prevail again.

Absent any genetic concerns, I do not care one way or the other who marries whom within their family. Nor do I care whether polygamy is allowed, under the assumption that in all external factors such as retirement, benefits, etc, only one spouse is eligible.






A Typical Response From Darice
For the sake of all here this will not turn into a bible quoting area. I know that is boring and offensive to some. I will help Darice out though. You did get one thing right; every day, I read it every day. It is my comfort and my hope. Thanks Darice. Now, where did God sanction polygamy? When was the first marriage to more than one woman? What did God have to do with it? Surely you know...and about David; we get into trouble talking about things and not actually reading them. So I will use you as a prime example for those who care. Let's take what Darice SAYS and stand it up against what the old dusty Gideon's Bible says: 2 Samuel (that's Old Testament) 11:27 through 12:25. King David lusted after Bathsheba, slept with her (it was her wrongdoing too), and had her husband killed. Pretty simple. After all of that and the punishment they received, they again rejected God's commandment and had another child. David defied God in every way. God sanctioned none of it. Oh for cryin' out loud. Enough of this. Stop talking about things you don't know so I can stop defending against ignorance and heresy.

Rober

RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS
like Rober and Eddie too provide the classic example of why many people (wrongly) marginalize religion. Pointing to the bible aa the rationale for your argument, then denying a tenet of the Old Testament that's there for everyone to see only erodes your own argument.

If the bible is the source of your morality, you can't deny or marginalize passages and tenets you don't like. If it's inconvenient to your ideology, too bad. I won't be so sactimonious to believe I understand the mind of an omni-present, all knowing, Supreme Being. But if you read the bible you know that God not only at one time condoned plural marriage, but he often rewarded and blessed those engaged in them.

Now, back to the topic.

OLBERMANN ROCKS.

To Darice
You argue from silence. Because it was not written in the bible that God castigated David for wedding Bathsheba, you assume and assert that polygamy was sanctioned. This is bad logic.

We have, in Genesis 2, a clear instruction that a man was to cleave to ONE wife. Please show me a clear statement sanctioning polygamy.

Problems With Civil Unions
Mellor has provided information on rights and privileges not attached to civil unions. But there is another, counter-intuitive issue.

Civil unions are, in effect, marriage lite. Several countries in Europe insitituted full civil unions to mee the needs of gay folk. The effect was an unanticipated drop in traditional marriage, with a corresponding increase in the number of single parents.

Many straight couples were choosing civil unions, and when a kid came along or there were difficulties, splitting up was very, very easy. In effect, NOT allowing gay marriage undermined traditional marriage.

I recommend making both marriage and divorce harder, but not allowing any marriage lite status for anyone. This would actually strengthen marriage as an institution. Is htis not preferebale to a dual status situation that actually undermines marriage






To Darice
"If the bible is the source of your morality, you can't deny or marginalize passages and tenets you don't like."

Pretending that passages say what they do not is also folly.

Correction for Tallil2long
David was condemned for his Adultry with Bathsheba and for murdering her husband, not for marrying her.

Keith is 100% right
But it's worse than you think.

We are already in a war with folks who justify their actions based on what their sky pixie tells them to do.

We can fight this on the basis of reason. Protect and encourage the Ayaan Hirsi Ali's and Salman Rushdie's of this world. Publish Danish cartoons. Withdraw all aid to countries like Sudan that convict teachers who let their children name the class teddy bear Mohamed. Make it crystal clear that if you live in my country you do not persecute gays and women because your sky pixie says you can, and so on. We can win that war.

Or, we can fight the war based on "my sky pixie is bigger than yours." Why, about 6 months ago I heard a US soldier on the radio claim he was in Iraq doing god's will. This war is doomed to failure. There can be no compromise, and they are more willing to die.

No matter that when they get to paradise they'll be met by my maiden great-aunt Dora and 71 of her spinster friends. It's too late then.

Oh My
For the third time - where where where did he Darice? What happened to King Solomon because of his way of life and his "700 wives"? No answers from you! What do I marginalize? You ARE the example of speaking without knowing. My entire point is DON'T use the bible to argue if you don't READ the bible. Nowhere is a scripture marginalized. If you can't even answer the simplest of questions, defend a belief (gay marriage) in some other way. remember, the last line of defense when you are out of answers is an attack. I do owe you an apology for being so mouthy. As gay marriage is very near and dear to the mind of some, my relationship with God is near to my heart. The best to you Darice.

Rober

Tallil2long
Your first paragraph is an opinion, which I respect, that you obviously drew (tho I don't know how) from reading the old testament.

I see an Old Testament with rules for polygamous marriage (subsequent wives not infringing on benefits and honors due 1st wife). I see great men anointed to lead nations (David, Solomon) by God who engaged in polygamy. I see an Old Testament in which God chastised not one man concerning his polygamous act, including his chosen leaders. If there's a verse of passage I'm missing, I'd love to be introduced to it.

Until then, we'll have to disagree concerning God's disdain for O. T. polygamy.

OLBERMANN ROCKS


Cause and effect, John?
"Civil unions are, in effect, marriage lite. Several countries in Europe insitituted full civil unions to mee the needs of gay folk. The effect was an unanticipated drop in traditional marriage, with a corresponding increase in the number of single parents."

Is the result of civil unions (unlikely, IMO), or is the result of the socialist welfare state?

In the UK, for instance, a single teenage mother can immediately get a rent-free apartment. If she marries, it's the husband's job to provide. There are generations of folk who have never worked, who go into and out of relationships, and even kidnap their own children for ransom.

This is the scourge that needs to be fought. Not a marriage between two men or two women.

And No Answers From Mellor
Mr Mellor says there are no answers in the Bible and that the DaVinci Code is more reliable. We have seen from the non-response the validity of his argument. I have NO problems with your reference to a sky pixie. It is expected. Again, the last defense of a losing argument is an attack. Now, as Darice says, Back to the topic at hand. Any NON-BIBICAL reasoning against or for gay marriage?

TALLIL2LONG
TALLI: "You argue from silence. Because it was not written in the bible that God castigated David for wedding Bathsheba, you assume and assert that polygamy was sanctioned. This is bad logic.".

Try this logic. In a culture in which polygamy was thriving, God didn't condenm anyone for this specific practice. I'm sure the wisest King of Isreal wouldn't have taken 700 wives (not to mention 300 concubines) if it would bring down God's wrath.

OLBERMANN ROCKS

ROBER, MY FRIEND
Answering your question is easy enough but once I answer and we still disagree, what then? To ask a question (which I don't mind answering) assuming one must be ignorant of the subject, as with MellorSj, or assuming your interpretation is obviously correct, as with me, displays an arrogance and self righteousness that won't be satisfied with any answer with which you disagree. We've read the same scriptures. We've come to different conclusions. We both will be held accountable for our interpretations. That's good enough for me. It should be good enough for you. The best to you too, my friend.

OLBERMANN ROCKS

ROBER
I posted before I saw your last post to Mellor. I'm interested to know, what's your non-biblical reason for opposing gay marriage?

This is not good if true......

"Others have been subjected to death threats and intimidation. I am writing this column because last week I saw websites publicize the names, addresses and employers of small donors, turned civilian targets."

Pardon the pun, but this issue MUST remain CIVIL.......


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Saunders More than Wrong, She's Silly
Saunders says that the voters would have voted to legalize same-sex marriage. Wrong. The vote was only close because of the court's action and the specious but effective argument of taking rights away.

Lastly she seems to say that if tolerance of dissent was practiced by the same-sex advocates, she would be their "friend"? That's silly.

I'll vote for you so long as you're nice to me? What does that have to do with anything? Why is this person on Townhall?

"that's so gay"
Why is "gay" used as a pejorative unrelated to sex? What does it mean absent a sexual context? I had to ask someone from the generation that spawned this usage in order to find out. Here is what I learned.

When something unrelated to sex is described as "gay", the interpretation intended is that it is "lame", that it is unimpressive, that it comes across as no less phony than a unionized teacher's social lesson, an "after-school special", or "a very special episode".

That is to say, if something is "gay", then it is something that only someone who did not have their interests at heart would want them to embrace.

So, to the anti-Prop-8 nazis, I say this: you do not own the word, though you were instrumental in creating it.


+++

hail to the chief
If the rights of gays are being violated, and marriage as we know has existed for more years than i can remember? How are they being violated, if in fact it never existed?

What a silly argument
Ms. Saunders is saying that thousands of years of human history deserve more respect!!??

Slavery existed for thousands of years, too.

When something is wrong it is wrong, whether it has existed for a long time or not. When two people who love each other decide to commit to a life-long monogamous relationship, that should be celebrated, not limited to two people who happen to be of different genders.

Monogamous really?
Chris from CT,

Could you find me a single gay couple that is sexually monogamous over the course of say 5 years. How about even 1 year? Even most gay people admit they have "open" sexual relationships.

They are not the same type of relationships, and they don't really want the same type of relationships.

For Nate & John in PA,
Apologies for the mistake, Nate.

http://www.gendermatters.org.au/Home_files/21%20Reasons%20W hy%20Gender%20Matters%28low%20res%29.pdf

Have fun looking up the 176 references and the 17 books cited.

I SERIOUSLY doubt the credibility of ANY of your sources considering they so obviously go against basic biology.

And anal sex is demonstrably BAD for the body. Who pays for the consequences of it? Just try reducing funding for AIDS research and wait a second for the howls of 'discrimination'!

You just playing ignorant.

and to ca in IL, grow up. What do grandparents do, if not be part of an extended part of an ongoing story? ...a story that doesn't even get started with homosexuals.

Proposition 8 breakdown
The anti 8 crowd has identified and targeted supporters of proposition 8 for harassment. Lawsuits have been filed, and the NY Times reported on it two weeks ago.

Interestingly enough a voting breakdown has been released that says:

84% say personal or religious objections figured in their vote

65% Protestant and 55% Catholic supported proposition 8

What this means is that 73% of voters are not going to change their minds.

This comes from the SFgate.com, the San Francisco Chronicle

Gays: it's not about you.
I don't care if homosexuals get the same civil benefits as heteros. I don't care if the government recognizes a civil contract between them. I don't care if they find a psuedo-Christian church to perform something they call a 'marriage'. This isssue is not about gay people.

I will not surrender the concept of marriage. I would prefer the government cease to recognize marriage in any form, for anyone, than to sanction the subversion of the institution of marriage, to be complicit in the attempted destruction of this critical ideal. This isn't about denying anyone anything. It's about protecting something ultimately worth saving.

That is the problem, gays. You are trying to take something that cannot be stolen. Your selfish greed for this thing will destroy it.

Please. Let it go. This is not about you.


The Left has always...
... taken what they want. If they can't get it at the ballot box,they run to some liberal court and get a liberal judge to grant their wishes.

They are patient,usually. They keep chipping and chipping and pretty soon the mountain is but a molehill and they have won. They just wear everyone down. They will no doubt win this time,also. B.Hussein will probably direct it.

prop 8
WHERE ELSE BUT CALIFORNIA? IT'S NO WONDER THEY WORRY ABOUT THE BIG ONE!YOU COULDN'T DRAG ME OUT THERE WITH A TEAM OF WILD HORSES.
PAST SOCIETIES HAVE COMPLETELY VANISHED BECAUSE OF HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITY, AND AMERICA IS NOT GOING TO ESCAPE GOD'S JUDGEMENT EITHER!
ITS A SHAME THERE WAS EVEN A VOTE ON HOMO'S AND LESBIANS MARRYING.
PROVERBS 14:34 RIGHTEOUSNESS EXALTETH A NATION:BUT SIN IS A REPROACH TO ANY PEOPLE.

To Michael
"David was condemned for his Adultry with Bathsheba and for murdering her husband, not for marrying her."

Yes, that is why I wrote 'it was not written in the bible that God castigated David for wedding Bathsheba'.
Note the NOT in my statement.

PROP 8
NO WHERE BUT CALIF.IT'S NO WONDER THEY WORRY ABOUT THE BIG ONE. PAST SOCIETIES HAVE COMPLETLY VANISHED FROM EARTH BECAUSE OF HOMO'S AND LESBIANS ACTIVITY. IT'S A SHAME THERE WAS EVEN A VOTE ON THE SUBJECT!
PROVERBS14:34 RIGHTEOUSNESS EXALTETH A NATION,BUT SIN IS A REPROACH TO ANY PEOPLE.

To Darice
"I see an Old Testament with rules for polygamous marriage (subsequent wives not infringing on benefits and honors due 1st wife)."

I also see rules for divorce. Yet God said "For I am against the putting away of a wife... and against him who is clothed with violent acts... so give thought to your spirit and do not be false in your acts."
Malachi 9:16

And again, Christ said "It was because of your hardness of heart that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives. But from the beginning it was not this way."
Matthew 19:8

If God, because of the hardness of human hearts, made provisions for regulating divorce without approving of it, he can equally make provisions for regulating polygamy without approving THAT practice.


"I see great men anointed to lead nations (David, Solomon) by God who engaged in polygamy."

I see that even these great men sinned repeatedly, in multiple ways. That they sinned by way of polygamy would not be surprising.

"I see an Old Testament in which God chastised not one man concerning his polygamous act, including his chosen leaders."

I also read a New Testament in which Christ chastised not one person for infanticide; yet I am quite convinced that he did not approve of that practice.

"If there's a verse of passage I'm missing, I'd love to be introduced to it."

The passage for which you search is Genesis 2:24. Whether the writers of the OT ever recorded God chastising anyone for polygamy, the rule was clearly stated: "shall cleave to his WIFE (female, singular)".

DARICE AR
YOU NEED TO READ THE WHOLE BOOK TO RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE TRUTH. 2 TIM 2:15
POLYGAMY IS WRONG,BUT YOU CAN'T JUST GO BY WHAT ANYBODY SAYS ON THE SUBJECT. IF YOU READ THE NEW TESTAMENT,I THINK YOU WILL FIND OUT THAT GOD ONLY INTENDED FOR MAN TO HAVE ONE WIFE.
THROW AWAY THAT NIV AND GET THE ORIGINAL KJV AS ALL OTHERS ARE PERVERSIONS.

Fab!
Stop repeating yourself!

Talk about endless loop of thought and impervious to reason.

How much does the vatican pay you to do this anyway?

Gays and Lesbians
I offer NO support for either the Gay and Lesbian lifestyle or "marriage".
For me it's a deviant lifestyle that will do much to destroy tne already shakey moral values of the country and destroy the Family Unity as well. An abomination to me.
If laws are made to endorse their lifestyle and "marriage" there is no telling what other evil lifestyles await acceptance.
Just the thought of acceptance of these issues makes my skin crawl and brings the sickness of evil in my soul.
I can only wish that they would crawl back into the netherland from which they came. I admit they do have certain rights but there is a limit.
Another reason why I have no respect or support for "The One" and the Party of Evil.

To Stan
Folks like Darice routinely assume that the OT and the NT can be read in isolation. That is reasonable if the person assumes that the Bible is not the inspired message of an unchanging God.

We know that both the OT and the NT were inspired by God, and that God's attributes do not change. Thus we recognize that the OT and the NT complement each other and can be studied with an eye to reinforcing and complementing each other.

Second to Stan
I'm not certain by what criteria folks judge the KJV to be the only 'divinely-inspired', perfect translation. I understand that some modern translations were made to deliberately serve someone's preconceived notions, but your statement seems to go beyond this recognition.

Gay Marriage is Bad Public Policy
The law has traditionally protected and promoted heterosexual marriage for very important public policy reasons. First, and most importantly, the heterosexual union is the source of life. Society would not exist without it. Natural families pre-existed society. Societies are really just extended families. Therefore, society has not only the right, but the duty protect and promote the source of its existence.

Second, a home in which there is a father and a mother who are happily married to each other is the best environment in which to raise children. Children raised in such homes have fewer problems, perform better in school, commit less crime, and grow up to be better adjusted and happier adults and more productive members of society. They are, in short more likely to be contributors to society and not drains on society.

Third, heterosexual marriage is good for its participants. Men married to women live longer and healthier lives. Overall, women married to men enjoy a better standard of living and experience less poverty than otherwise, as do the children living in such homes.

In short, society derives huge benefits from heterosexual marriage that it does not get from any other relationship. So much so, that Society has a duty to promote heterosexual marriage to the exclusion of all other similar relationships, including civil unions.

To tonyloaf
Also, women and kids suffer much lower rates of abuse when the woman is married to the father of the kids.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Family/bg1732.cfm

Critics will *always* seek to use anecdotal evidence to cast doubt on this fact, but the statistics speak eloquently; the exception, even many exceptions, does not disprove the rule.

Pre Election Day Prop 8
I get really tired of hearing about demonstrations and protests by LGBT and their supporters.

Prior to Election Day, the YES on Prop 8 camp sent a letter of INTIMIDATION to all companies who donated to the NO on 8 side. In that letter they threatened to out them AND DEMANDED that they donate a like amount to the YES on 8 side!!

I have a copy of that letter so I know exactly what it says!

So for those who talk about protests against the passage of Prop 8 which took away our rights, then perhaps you should consider the tactics of lies and intimidation that the YES on 8 side engaged in!

sam allen # 111
You said: “Could you find me a single gay couple that is sexually monogamous over the course of say 5 years. How about even 1 year? Even most gay people admit they have "open" sexual relationships.

They are not the same type of relationships, and they don't really want the same type of relationships.”

Are you interested in the truth or only what you hear? Because your statement is certainly not true. “Some” gay couples believe in open relationships, just like some opposite sex couples do. Some gay couples cheat on their spouse just like opposite sex couples. This is NOT true for the majority!

I’ll give you one myself since you asked. My husband and I. We have been together for 7 years and 1 month and married for 4 years as of this Feb 14th. Not once have we ever cheated on each other and I’m not talking about just since we’ve been married either but the entire time we have been together!

So don’t even sit there and try to say us gays don’t want the same type of relationship that you or anyone else does!

And you certainly cannot deny the right of marriage to all because ‘some’ might not be monogamous. Otherwise there were be no marriages for anyone.

tonyloaf #128
You said: "The law has traditionally protected and promoted heterosexual marriage for very important public policy reasons. First, and most importantly, the heterosexual union is the source of life. Society would not exist without it."

Excuse me, but just how does allowing loving same sex couples the RIGHT to be married affect this? What, are heterosexual couples suddenly going to stop procreating?

These lame excuses for denying homosexuals equal rights are really just so illogical.

As usual L-I-E is incorrect
The NO on proposition 8 side hired political and advertising consultants and spent millions on those people. And created intimidation tactics.

Now they are angry at the army of mercenaries they hired because they lost. The SF gate.com has a nice article on the proposition8 losers turning on their own consultants.

Now, instead of the minority population, it is all the fault of the consultants.

And the losers have alienated many with their intimidation, harassment tactics that have resulted in law suits. the NY Times reported on the threats by the homosexual alliances to prop8 supporters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/19/us/19prop8.html?_r=2&ref= us

No right was ever taken from anyone. No matter what L-I-E claims.

If you care to here is the link to ALL of the briefs filed with the California Supreme Court to be heard in March.

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/supreme/highprofile/prop 8.htm

As usual LIE parrots legal theories as facts instead of just legal theories. And those are subject to change as they did after the proposition 8 loss.

84% of the voters who passed poposition 8 did so for personal or religious reasons and 73% will not change their minds.

LIE asserts that like federal funny money, a special right was created for homosexuals out of thin air and somehow taken away. A self created special right does not make it a reality.

There are very good reasons L-I-E
Why homosexuals are denied the right to marry in every state that is brought to a vote.30 plus and more will vote this year and next.

92% of Americans believe in God and 75% are Christian.

Redefining marriage to something that it is not intended to be, is without justification. And opens the door to every marriage, not just homosexual marriage. That is a fact, and happening in EVERY country where homosexual marriage is legal. That can not be denied as a fact.

Redefining marriage to accomodate the chosen behavior and sexual preference by 1-2% of the poplulation flies in the face of history, morality, religion, and common sense.

Rich D called it right.

As usual anderson..
You talk only about our side and what it did or did not do. You don’t want to acknowledge that the YES on 8 side wrote that letter of intimidation and ran a campaign based on one lie after another!

And in fact I recall on another thread before Election Day you yourself supported the YES on 8 side sending that letter of intimidation!!

And I don’t ‘blame’ our consultants. They made a mistake to approach the struggle in the way they did. But the blame is not just on them but all of us for agreeing to it. You know what they say, people learn from their mistakes.

I firmly believe and I know that if we had put a human face to this travesty called Prop 8, we would have WON. That is a mistake we will correct, make no mistake about it.

The SC’s job is to enforce the Constitution and that is exactly what they did last May. This is not the first time (nor will it be the last) that a SC made a ruling that some do not agree with. It does not in any way change the legality of that ruling, NOR does it change the fact that a RIGHT was TAKEN AWAY.

No matter how hard you try you cannot change the fact that on Nov 3rd, loving same sex couples could be married and after Nov 4th they could not. That IS a right taken away and it will NOT stand the test of time!

Because one way or another, either the CASC overturns it or the PEOPLE WILL overturn it when WE put it back on the ballot! One way or another this divisive and discriminatory Prop 8 will (to use your words) go by way of the do-do bird!

Anderson #134
You forget the many Christians and those of other faiths who DO agree in marriage equality.

FINAL THOUGHTS
While away, a couple of bloggers further took issue with me concerning my interpretation of God condoning polygamy in the Old Testament. I could be wrong, but it appears their ideology dictate their religion and they're hesitant to state even the obvious.

The following is from TALLIL2LONG'S post #122.

Me: "I see an Old Testament in which God chastised not one man concerning his polygamous act, including his chosen leaders.".

T2T: "I also read a New Testament in which Christ chastised not one person for infanticide; yet I am quite convinced that he did not approve of that practice.".

Had Christ chosen an infanticidal maniac as one of his disciples the example would be a relevant rebuttal of my point. But while still engaging in sin, Christ wouldn't choose a murderer, thief, adulterer, liar, etc, to be blessed with such an honor.

God so despised adultery that He eventually made it the 7th commandment. Yet, he anointed men to lead nations (without disavowing their sin) who had multiple wives. Maybe, just maybe, God didn't view polygamy as adultery.

Tallil2long, Stan, I respect your interpretations. I simply haven't seen enough evidence to allow me to abandon mine. Good night gentlemen.

OLBERMANN ROCKS.

Really L-I-E ?
The letter you refer to is intimidation to you. NOT so to the other side, and many who have seen that letter. Publish a link to the contents. Or are you afraid that your opinion will be viewed as nothing more than self serving?

The Yes on 8 side made their case. You call it lies,none of it was lies. Somehow that FACT, and history, needs to be accepted by you. Losing may be hard to swallow, but it is a fact. The people of CA spoke.

If your side had won, and the yes side was going to court to overturn their loss, you would be screaming about the will of the people being ignored.

You offer a subjective opinion as a fact. That is far from the case.

One ad for the prop8 side dealt with children being taught homosexuality in school. YOU flatly called it a lie.

The YES on 8 side was correct. Now we have a raging scandal in the UK and all over the world where homosexuality is being taught as natural to children as young as five. And do not try and deny it.

The yes on 8 ads were correct, and prophetic.

You have always had every right everyone else has. You may marry the woman of your choice. You chose to demand a man for marriage. Sorry, not an acceptable choice by society.

I want two more wives. That is my right, is it not L-I-E? Are you trying to deny me my rights because I am a heterosexual?

Equality for all, right? You have to support my rights to polygamy. That is without question. Otherwise you are a bigot, that is what you say about others that do not support your rights to same sex marriage. Or do you practice selective morality when it comes to marriage?

Same sex marriage is a redefinition of everything known to the civilized world. It is failing everywhere it is being tried.

In time same sex marriage will be viewed as another failed social experiment.

Anderson
"Same sex marriage is a redefinition of everything known to the civilized world. It is failing everywhere it is being tried."

***

I am not going to bother to ask you to explain just exactly what you mean by "failing everywhere" but I would like to point out that the arguments that are being promoted by posters and the columnist herself were said about women who wanted the vote too, followed once again when the ERA amendment was being pushed.

Saunders points out that from the beginning
of time, marriage was only between a man and
a woman. Well, from the beginning of time,
women were not allowed a vote either. But
that simply was not a good enough excuse.

You additionally wrote: " want two more wives. That is my right, is it not L-I-E? Are you trying to deny me my rights because I am a heterosexual?"

There is an obvious difference between your
desire to have more than one wife and anyone's
desire to have a partner. To be one wife
among many or even just with dealing one other
one is a potentially abusive situation.
Any relationship can be abusive, but there is
nothing so clearly built in as it is in
polygamy. I hope that you are bright enough
to see that situation clearly. Homosexual
partnership only harms your sensibilities,
just as inter-racial marriage or marriage
between different religions may irritate
your sensibilities. I think you are going to
just file that under the "too bad" category.

Homosexual marriage will eventually happen.
You know it. I know it. And someone life
will go on.

I am very much aware that there are a lot of
people who still think that was a mistake,
some because of religion, others just because
they think women are some sort of lesser
being.

oops
I do not know how town hall managed to change
the position of my paragraphs in my previous
post. I wish that there was an edit option
like that found in the Amazon political forums.

Gayrriage
Just call it gayrriage. no more fuse, no more arguement.

O.
Again, your feelings about homosexuality do not make children of homosexual parents worse off than children in other family situations. Just because you WANT those children to do worse so that it supports your own world view, does not mean that is the case in reality.

By the way, that is a clever though thinly disguised trick you tried to pull. Disavowing the validity of any research that contradicts your position. Hows that for common sense.

I was also amused by this analogy you made.

"All people since the beginning of time discriminate: Think saber-tooth tiger versus antelope; one will eat you, the other will feed you."

Both will feed you, it's just harder to kill a sabertooth tiger because it will fight back. Also, you have to hunt the antelope just as much as you do any other non-domesticated animal. Also, animals aren't people.

Homosexual behavior is only unacceptable if there is someone that thinks it is unacceptable. It is not inherently that way. There is nothing inherently evil about homosexuality. What happens in a society when it is no longer the majority, but the minority, who think of it that way?

People constantly bring biology into the argument. Since when have human beings really cared about what our biology tells us? We are not biologically able to fly so we built airplanes. We are not biologically able to breathe underwater so we built SCUBA gear. We are not by any means basing our laws and morals on biology. Well, perhaps you are when it meshes with your viewpoint, but a good portion of the rest of the world is not. I might also add, and this is constantly ignored or brushed off since it too does not mesh with the anti-gay world view, that homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom.


Proud to be Anti Gay
Some of these posts are humorous - declaring - "You are anti gay!", to which I proudly reply - Guilty as charged!
Do I think gays are normal? Nope, I think they are perverts.
Do I bother or discriminate against them? Nope, and I expect them to leave me alone as well.

Thistle
Nobody ever said you had to like homosexuals, have homosexual friends, invite homosexual people into your home, write stories extolling the virtues of homosexuality, put up signs and statues in your yard depicting homosexual acts, or even just watch a TV show in which there is a homosexual actor/actress or even somebody who works on the set that is a homosexual.

Nope, you don't have to do any of those things. All the gay community asks is that you don't deny them the right to be equal in marriage to you just because you don't like them.

Anderson
Yep, homosexual marriages are failing everywhere. It seems like everyday I read more horror stories about homosexual marriages gone bad in Spain, The Netherlands, South Africa, Canada, Belgium, Massachusetts, and California.

I wouldn't be surprised if all those failing same-sex marriages bring about the rapture!

To Darice
"In a culture in which polygamy was thriving, God didn't condenm anyone for this specific practice."

Not that is recorded in the Bible. However, we do not need to hear specific condemnations when we *already* have God's rule, clearly stated, that a man is to marry ONE wife. You do not accept this rule because you do not want to. That is also the reason that polygamy 'thrived' -- because ancient Jews also did not want to accept the rule.

"I'm sure the wisest King of Isreal wouldn't have taken 700 wives (not to mention 300 concubines) if it would bring down God's wrath."

Solomon brought down God's wrath by building temples to the pagan gods of his wives. This proves that one cannot disallow Solomon's sinning by polygamy simply based on the notion that such a great man would never have sinned and brought down God's wrath.


To Nate in PA

I've met a few likeable homosexuals. As well as some disgusting kweers.

Leave out your BS about "denying" gays anything because you don't "like them."

". . . the gay community asks is that you don't deny them the right to be equal in marriage to you just because you don't like them."

They all have equality with me. They have the same right I have; and your mother and father had, and George & Martha Washington had. All have the right to marry a person of the opposite sex. You don't ask for "equal" rights. You're demanding exttaordinary rights.


dreadnaught
No, I'm not. If same-sex marriages were legal, anyone could enter into one. That means you too. They would not be special rights as everyone would have the right to do it, just as you callously say they do now with opposite sex marriages. It's easy to say the system is great when the system is designed for you, not against you.

Are you voting Yes on 88, dreadnut?
Prop 88 defines marriage as being between two consenting adults of two different religions.

The benefits to the state and society are obvious.

There can be no objection because the same rules apply to everyone. You can marry and get all the rights and responsibilities of marriage; you just can't marry someone of the same religion.

Anyone calling for same-religion marriage (a disgusting thought when you think about it) is asking for special rights.

Vote Yes on 88!

anderson #138
You stated: “The letter you refer to is intimidation to you. NOT so to the other side, and many who have seen that letter. Publish a link to the contents.”

Ok, here is a link to the contents.
http://www.noonprop8.com/downloads/Prop8ThreatLetter.pdf

They are clearly demanding these companies withdraw support for EQCA and make a ‘like’ donation to the YES on 8 side. That most certainly is a letter of intimidation!

You said: “The YES on 8 side was correct. Now we have a raging scandal in the UK and all over the world where homosexuality is being taught as natural to children as young as five. And do not try and deny it.”

It was a LIE first of all because CA clearly has OPT OUT laws which allow the parents to pull their children out of any instruction which they find objectionable. Next you bring up the UK which has nothing to do with the USA nor of CA.

You said: “Same sex marriage is a redefinition of everything known to the civilized world. It is failing everywhere it is being tried.”

You can twist any statistics and the second that statistics show something you don’t like you try to blame it on gay marriage. That is truly pathetic.

You said: “You have always had every right everyone else has. You may marry the woman of your choice. You chose to demand a man for marriage. Sorry, not an acceptable choice by society.”

So pathetic. That is no more possible than you marrying another man if the laws were reversed Anderson! Oh sure we can go through the motions of marriage to someone of the opposite sex but it would NOT be a marriage because we can only truly fall in love with someone of the same sex. The law cannot compel us to be something we are not in order to have the right of marriage!

Oh and funny how you refer to it as a RIGHT above but in other contexts you constantly refer to marriage as a privilege! Nice contradiction there Anderson!!

Mellor #149
Don't forget that if after marriage one spouse converts to the other's religion, their marriage is annulled. :) Just like they are trying to do with Prop 8.

Excellent point, LoveIsEqual!
I'll make the changes in the text. Consider it fixed.

And widows and widowers who have indulged in the sickening practice of same-religion congress will have their "marriages" annulled. Spousal social security benefits will be halted and prior payments must be repaid!

And their children automagically become b@stards.

And when their (ex-)spouse is in hospital, the parents can come in and claim the right to make decisions as next-of-kin.

And couples that opt to stay together will have inheritances for their (ex-)spouses taxed at punitive rates (55% for inheritances over $650 in 2011).

But hey! They have no right to complain. They have equal rights. They can marry anyone they like--so long as they don't share the same religion.

DREADNAUGHT CA
EXACTLY WHAT RIGHTS DO YOU WANT?YOU DO THE SAME WITH OR WITHOUT THE CERTIFICATE! ALL YOU WANT IS HEALTH INSURANCE TO PAY FOR YOUR AIDS GAINED FROM YOUR FILTHY LIFESTYLE! BY THE WAY,YOU AIN'T GAY;YOU ARE A SODOMITE!LOOK IT UP IN THE KJV BIBLE! GAY DOESN'T EQUAL HOMO.ALL THAT IS IS THE NEW PHYSCOLOGY

I'm sure dreadnaught
will be happy to hear it, Stan.

Now, why don't you stop shouting such drivel?

(Miracles do happen! I am actually going to dreadnut's defense. Whatever the hell next?)

Fabius, isn't it funny?
Isn't it funny about your reaction to our little twist of irony?

It seems you realize how stupid our little tangent was, eh? Should make you think about just how stupid it is to use the arguments you use to support denying equal rights to loving same sex couples.

Of course knowing you, you probably still don't get it do you?

Stupid tangent?
Surely you jest, Loveisequal!

How can you call Prop 88 a stupid tangent when it holds forth the promise of slowing recruitment of sky pixie people? I mean, how else do you think people become catholics, say? There's no 'catholic gene'. No! We're talking recruitment into this degenerate lifestyle.

Stupid tangent indeed! Hmmmmph!

THIRD PARTIES I
Gay relationships increasingly involve third parties who are neither consenting nor adult: these third parties are called children.

Adoption agencies turn couples down for adoption where one or other or both prospective parents are over a certain age. Why?

Because children need emotional continuity and economic security, and the potential early loss of a parent is considered too disruptive to make such an adoption viable.

Statistics show that gay males die early deaths. The potential for early loss of not one, but both parents should therefore automatically rule out gay adoption.




THIRD PARTIES II
Heterosexual relationships are typically far more stable and sexually exclusive than gay relationships.

Bell & Weinbergs "Homosexualities" found that 53.3% of gay males had 500+ lifetime sexual partners. The largest cohort, 28% had upwards of 1, 000. Some had as many as 10, 000.


Numerous surveys of gay sexual behaviour show few gay males remain in the same relationship for more than five years, and the statistical likelihood of sexual monogamy being maintained for five or more years approaches zero.


Serial semi-monogamy coupled with multiple partners between relationships is the norm even for relationship-minded gay men, so the statistical likelihood of stable long-term parenting from a homosexual adoption would also approach zero.


THIRD PARTIES III
Even in those homosexual relationships in which the partners consider themselves to be in a committed relationship, the meaning of "committed" typically means something radically different than in heterosexual marriage.

In "The Male Couple," authors David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison report that in a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting from one to thirty-seven years:

Only seven couples have a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all have been together for less than five years. Stated another way, all couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationships.

Most understood sexual relations outside the relationship to be the norm, and viewed adopting monogamous standards as an act of oppression.



THIRD PARTIES IV
Relational instability is also a feature of lesbian relationships, with the same negative effects on dependent children.

Evidence exists in the literature and in gay self-admissions that lesbians exhibit high levels of promiscuity relative to the general female population.

Jay and Young's Gay Report revealed that 38% of lesbians surveyed had between 11 and more than 300 sexual partners lifetime.

In “Homosexualities,” Bell and Weinberg found that 41% of Caucasian lesbians had between 10 and 500 lifetime sexual partners.

An article entitled "Maintaining Our Equilibrium in Couples -- Or Not," by Clare Coss, quotes a writer named Alison as saying: "Somebody who has been in a long relationship is stranger in the gay life than people who've been in and out of them.”

Throughout this book, lesbian women speak of the rampant promiscuity of lesbian lifestyles, not as a negative, but simply as a fact of the lifestyles themselves.



THIRD PARTIES V
Of paramount concern are the effects of such a lifestyle upon children. Brad Hayton writes:

“Homosexuals ... model a poor view of marriage to children. They are taught by example and belief that marital relationships are transitory and mostly sexual in nature. Sexual relationships are primarily for pleasure rather than procreation. And they are taught that monogamy in a marriage is not the norm [and] should be discouraged if one wants a good 'marital' relationship.”

Numerous studies demonstrate the effect of divorce on the children of heterosexual relationships.

Imagine the downstream effect on children of being in homosexual households where over time the “cheating rates” over time approach 100 percent. Or where a child is subjected to repeated “divorces.”

AGENDAS I
It is not the intention of homosexual activists simply to make it possible for homosexuals and lesbians to partake of conventional married life.

By their own admission they aim to change the essential character of marriage, removing precisely the aspects of fidelity and chastity that promote stability in the relationship and the home:

• Paula Ettelbrick, former legal director of the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund, has stated, "Being qu**r is more than setting up house, sleeping with a person of the same gender, and seeking state approval for doing so. . . . Being qu**r means pushing the parameters of sex, sexuality, and family, and in the process transforming the very fabric of society."

• According to homosexual writer and activist Michelangelo Signorile, the goal of homosexuals is:

To fight for same-sex marriage and its benefits and then, once granted, redefine the institution of marriage completely, to demand the right to marry not as a way of adhering to society's moral codes but rather to debunk a myth and radically alter an archaic institution. . . . The most subversive action lesbian and gay men can undertake . . . is to transform the notion of "family" entirely.

AGENDAS II
Signorile goes so far as to redefine the term monogamy:

For these men the term "monogamy" simply doesn't necessarily mean sexual exclusivity ... The term "open relationship" has for a great many gay men come to have one specific definition: A relationship in which the partners have sex on the outside often, put away their resentment and jealousy, and discuss their outside sex with each other, or share sex partners.

• The views of Signorile and Ettelbrick regarding marriage are widespread in the homosexual community. According to the Mendola Report, a mere 26 percent of homosexuals believe that commitment is most important in a marriage relationship.

Former homosexual William Aaron explains why even homosexuals involved in "committed" relationships do not practice monogamy:

In the gay life, fidelity is almost impossible. Since part of the compulsion of homosexuality seems to be a need on the part of the homophile to "absorb" masculinity from his sexual partners, he must be constantly on the lookout for [new partners]. Consequently the most successful homophile "marriages" are those where there is an arrangement between the two to have affairs on the side while maintaining the semblance of permanence in their living arrangement.

How is recognizing and encouraging these perverts beneficial either to society or to the individuals concerned?

It is clear that gay activists have a deliberately subversive agenda in trying to force gay marriage on us.

Freddie
You said: “It is clear that gay activists have a deliberately subversive agenda in trying to force gay marriage on us.”

Clear to who? You? You call it subversive, we call it Equal Rights and equal entitlement to the institution of marriage.

As for the rest of your propaganda, nothing there is a surprise coming from people like you who want to deny us our rights under the law. Direct from the Paul Cameron play book, the very one who was completely expelled from the psychological community because of his extreme views and completely unsubstantiated and outlandish accusations.

NO SPECIAL RIGHTS FOR SODOMITES
LoveIsEqual claims an "equal entitlement to the institution of marriage" as if he doesn't have it already.

You have the same right as any other American to get married: subject to the marriage partner being [1] of the opposite sex; [2] of legal age; and [3] not a close relative.

All you have to do is get some therapy for your SAD = Sexual Attraction Disorder and you can partake of this institution the same as anyone else thus inclined.

That which is normal is that which functions according to its design. The anus is an organ of excretion, not procreation.

Heterosexual intercourse creates life, while homosexual intercourse creates nothing but bacterial life.

As Joe Sobran puts it, "How bright do you have to be to work out the consequences of inserting a life-giving organ into the poop chute?"

Sexual activity between two persons of the opposite sex, whether undertaken for procreation or pleasure, uses our sex organs for their natural and intended purpose.

Conversely, sodomy could no more be considered “sex” than someone consuming the contents of an ash tray could be said to be “eating.”

To suggest that there is no functional difference between sperm swimming towards eggs and sperm swimming towards feces is ludicrous in the extreme.

There you have it. No amount of spin or wishful thinking from the Lavender Lobby can change the essential nature of gendered reality.


PROOF POSITIVE
LoveIsEqual claims that the statistical picture of homosexual behavior and pathology that numerous mass studies (many by gay researchers) has established is just a spiteful caricature bearing no resemblance to reality.

He suggests that publicising the results of these studies is an attempt to pathologise the behaviour of all gays based upon some of the more extreme practices indulged in by a minority of gays.

Funny how whenever one debates gay activists on sites such as TownHall they ALWAYS claim to fall in the statistical handful not engaging in rampant promiscuity and perverse sexual practises.

Every large study of gay males unfailingly demonstrates that the modal form of gay sexual behaviour is multiple-partner promiscuity in numbers that would stagger the average heterosexual if more widely reported.

Anyone wishing to dispute those findings is obliged to provide countervailing empirical evidence, not personal disavowals (which in any event would require proof) of the behaviors reported in the literature.

A raft of studies about dirty and promiscuous gay sexual habits and their disease-causing consequences conducted by people with doctoral qualifications and long professional experience in their fields of expertise cannot simply be waved away by assertion.

PROCREATIVE NORMALITY
Even a cursory perusal of human sexual behavior shows the biological imperative is heterosexual. Without it, there are no people.

The body parts of males and females have a natural affinity which is clearly lacking in same sex relationships. Therefore, while a variety of sexual practices is possible, the anatomy obviously favours male-female sexuality.

Clearly, the fact that some act is observed in human behaviour does not make it "natural." Neither does "naturalness" confer moral legitimacy nor mandate extending the institution of marriage to perverts using the body in unnatural ways.




HEALTH RISKS OF GAY SEX -- Dr John Diggs
The comments below are taken from this article:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0 075.html

[H]uman physiology makes it clear that the body was not designed to accommodate [anal sodomy]. The rectum is significantly different from the v*gina with regard to suitability for penetration by a p*nis.

The v*gina has natural lubricants and is supported by a network of muscles. It is composed of a mucus membrane with a multi-layer stratified squamous epithelium that allows it to endure friction without damage and to resist the immunological actions caused by semen and sperm.

In comparison, the anus is a delicate mechanism of small muscles that comprise an "exit-only" passage. With repeated trauma, friction and stretching, the sphincter loses its tone and its ability to maintain a tight seal.

Consequently, anal intercourse leads to leakage of fecal material that can easily become chronic.

The potential for injury is exacerbated by the fact that the intestine has only a single layer of cells separating it from highly vascular tissue, that is, blood.



HEALTH RISKS OF GAY SEX cont ...
Therefore, any organisms that are introduced into the rectum have a much easier time establishing a foothold for infection than they would in a vagina. The single layer tissue cannot withstand the friction associated with penile penetration, resulting in traumas that expose both participants to blood, organisms in feces, and a mixing of bodily fluids.

Furthermore, ejaculate has components that are immunosuppressive. In the course of ordinary reproductive physiology, this allows the sperm to evade the immune defenses of the female. Rectal insemination of rabbits has shown that sperm impaired the immune defenses of the recipient. Semen may have a similar impact on humans.

The end result is that the fragility of the anus and rectum, along with the immunosuppressive effect of ejaculate, make anal-genital intercourse a most efficient manner of transmitting HIV and other infections. The list of diseases found with extraordinary frequency among male homosexual practitioners as a result of anal intercourse is alarming:

Anal Cancer
Chlamydia trachomatis
Cryptosporidium
Giardia lamblia
Herpes simplex virus
Human immunodeficiency virus
Human papilloma virus
Isospora belli
Microsporidia
G*norrhea
Viral hepatitis types B & C
Syphilis25

Sexual transmission of some of these diseases is so rare in the exclusively heterosexual population as to be virtually unknown.

You Freddie is the one who has to...
proof! All you have provided is propaganda, nothing more. Sexual promiscuity is defined by the individual, not by their sexual orientation in case you did not know that.

Funny, you should tell my husband and I that gays are not monogamous. Oh, you just did. Hmm, somehow you have turned my husband and me into promiscuous animals just because you stated that we don’t know how to be faithful! I guess the fact that we are monogamous can somehow be changed because YOU state that it is not possible. And I guess you don’t realize how deranged that makes you.

My husband and I have been together for over 7 years and married for 4 years. To you it is not possible for us to be monogamous, yet we are. Of course you have no explanation for that because all you know is the propaganda you spout! And we are only one couple among countless who are monogamous.

Talk about anal sex, I guess you are too naive to recognize that heterosexual couples engage in this too, eh?

I guess you are too niece to recognize that in Africa, HIV infection mainly afflicts heterosexual couples.

You are hopeless, no point in continuing.

L-I-E
You have been offered prof on some many threads they are beyond count. You refuse to accept any.

And your posts are fabrications and pseudo threats. You post about threat letters for proposition 8, and rant and rave about the letter, you claim to have it, yet fail to post it every time you are asked.

Here it is:

http://www.sweetmelissa.com/files/prop8threatletter.pdf

It is no threat. What a farce. A joke, and nothing more than manufactured outrage.

And more lies from you other posts about proposition 8. All you are is a parrot for the anti8 crowd. You have no facts, just emotive propaganda brainwashed into you by your leaders that you regurgitate without hesitation.

The same sex marriage crowd has already filed an initiative for the 2010 ballot in California.

Even your leaders and lawyers have no expectations of overturning the results of proposition 8.

This initiative makes your posts look like a total fool. And I mean a total fool.

Filed this month.

http://www.thesweetmelissa.com/files/yes-on-equality.pdf

Freddie is dead on, totally correct. You are the propagandist.

HIV is spread through anal intercourse. Pure and simple. your claims are wrong.

Sorry L-I-E, once again you fail in any facts.

Anderson69
Proof is not "facts" that have been compiled by organizations and individuals with obvious anti-homosexual agendas. You didn't provide any independent data or research. Anderson, you would do very well to remember that just because you agree with someone and want what they say to be true, it doesn't make it true in that little thing the rest of us live in called reality.

None of the behavior Freddie or you have presented in your analysis is exclusive to homosexuals. Yes, there is promiscuity and yes there are STD's. Good job proving what everyone already knows. The one fact that makes your analysis reek of bias is this. Heterosexual people have STD's and are promiscuous too! You seem to think that, because you've cited studies that say it's more prevalent in the homosexual community, that, first off, it makes that claim true, and secondly, it makes homosexuals completely different than heterosexuals and you're wrong. If we want to limit parents to people that are 100% moral and just according to your standards, well, I guess we just won't have that many parents left. Unless you're advocating some type of screening to see if heterosexual parents are behaving themselves, stop acting like homosexuals are the only ones who aren't.

Nate
I do not need to cite references easily available to support what I have said. Your post parrots a weak line used to explain the raging problems rooted in homosexual sex.

Even liberal San Francisco banned bath houses for a time due to the spread of AIDS and other STD viruses.

Sure heterosexuals are promiscuous to a certain degree. Absolutely. Homosexuals exceed most any bounds known to heterosexual problems. To say because both groups have promiscuous people, both are the same.

To say different is to ignore the evidence.2% or so of the population have had several hundred thousand of their same sex practitioners die since 1981, and several hundred thousand more infected. That means since 1981 about 25% of the homosexual population have contracted AIDS, or died from it.

How is that comparable to heterosexuals?

And despite this street fairs in San Francisco attract hundreds of thousands of same sex people who practice sex right in the street.

I have posted graphic pictures taken at those strett scenes. If you missed it, ask L-I-E, he has them.

Nate, parrot the homosexual talking points do not reflect reality. Perhaps you need to do some research beyond same sex web sites.

Read this one;

http://www.corporateresourcecouncil.org/white-papers/Health _risks.pdf

since you asked...
I was reading the magazine aimed a black women "Essence", and for the last ten years, especially the last five, four issues out of twelve yearly point out the high HIV/AIDS infection rates among blacks, especially black women here in the US.

The numbers are comparable to that of the infected gay population. The CDC sometimes has to guesstimate numbers among those who either haven't disclosed their orientation, or who are unaware they are infected.
Obviously the most difficult populations to get accurate numbers from.

Homosexuals and black men and women share another problematic reality: the devaluation of their lives and isolation from certain resources and supportive structures more conducive to prevention of those problems.
And distrust of the medical establishment has also exacerbated these problems.

Although you like to assert that gay people's problems with disease, and suicide and so on are out of proportion to heterosexuals.

They didn't happen in a vacuum and without the calculations of the dominant culture that these problems persist and for so long, recovery, if any, would be a long time in the making.
Now, you can go on and on and on about who is diseased, who has the most pathology among them.

But in all our human lives, when HASN'T sex been a risk, especially for WOMEN?
Syphilis was the HIV of it's time. Some womens' organs have been damaged and deformed by sex and childbearing.
Would you suggest THEY never marry because of that?

Most of these threads that scrutinize gay people only result in ONE thing: how eagerly and persistently people embrace FEAR, not common sense...or reality.



anderson you are a LIAR!
You said: “And your posts are fabrications and pseudo threats. You post about threat letters for proposition 8, and rant and rave about the letter, you claim to have it, yet fail to post it every time you are asked.”

You are a LIAR Anderson! Take a look at the post referenced above as I most certainly did post it!!! And that letter most certainly was threatening or I suppose you don’t believe that DEMANDING a like donation from companies who had already clearly indicated support for the NO on 8 side is appropriate!

Reply # 150
Date: Jan 28, 2009 - 11:43 PM EST

You and those like you are the ones spreading propaganda Anderson! You find anything which speaks negatively of homosexuals and try to apply that to 100% of the homosexual community!! Most of what you post is based on biased and flawed statistics yet you tout it as fact.

There are bad homosexuals just like there are bad heterosexuals. The difference is that you think ALL homosexuals, even the good ones, should not get the same civil rights as others. That is almost like saying if someone in a family robbed a bank then his ENTIRE family should be punished for it!

In short, your disgust and yes even hatred of homosexuals shines through as always! The experience you had with your nephews all those years ago has so blinded you that you refuse to see how much change has taken place since then. You refuse to see that not everyone is like you remember your cousins to be.

That is really sad Anderson. Hopefully some day you will come out of the dark and be able to see both the bad AND good of our community. But in the end Anderson, no matter because you and those like you will NOT continue to rule the day! The tyranny will come to a close!

Anderson659
Simple math would tell you that 25% of the homosexual population is still less than the percentage of the heterosexual population that have the disease. Since there is no solid number for the percentage of the population that are homosexuals(I've seen it put at anywhere from 1%-5%), you can't really tell me what the actual numbers are. Percentages are meaningless if you don't know the context. For example:

If 500 inmates in prison for stealing computers are white, age 25-30 males, and the total population of that prison is 2000, I could say, as you have, that 25% of the white male age 25-30 population are in prison. Sounds like a big number, right? But when you take 500 and compare it against the total population of males in the United States, you get a much much smaller number. For the sake of my example, lets say the population of white age 25-30 males is 1,000,000 . All of a sudden only .005% of the White male age 25-30 population is in prison. That's a much smaller number.

Yes, we know that homosexuals were the first ones to contract the disease. You absolutely ignore the fact that this is just the way it happened to work out. There is nothing about homosexuality exclusively that makes the disease more or less likely to target them. I realize drug use and promiscuity are ways to spread the disease but thats also how it spreads in the heterosexual community making it universal, not limited to, homosexuals. You keep bringing up AIDS like it's the homosexual's fault, which is absurd.

Correction
In my previous comment, I said that:

"Simple math would tell you that 25% of the homosexual population is still less than the PERCENTAGE of the heterosexual population that have the disease."

It meant to say this instead.

"Simple math would tell you that 25% of the homosexual population is still less than the total amount of heterosexual people that have the disease.

spreads fear like infection
From what anderson, fabius c and so on tell, spreading fear is a lot easier than engaging meaningful exchanges of education and EXPERIENCE.
As Nate is pointing out, all you've effectively done is assert that, a small percentage of gay people somehow influence and speak or represent ALL or ANY gay people.

We could easily say too, that the minority of the diseased, the child killers, exhibitionists and sexually irresponsible among heterosexuals represents ALL of them, or it's indicative that they ALL will be that way eventually.
Sure...we could claim the same about heterosexuals and it might be true.

But it would be unfair, and not right to do.
Especially if a heterosexual paid a horrible price for it, like Jose Suzuchanzy. He was holding hands with his brother, mistaken for gay, and beaten and stabbed to death for it.

The more you repeat over and over again, that gay people are an aggressive, diseased and fearfully influential minority in a bad way on society, the less people will want to see or hear them as having YOUR values and hopes and potential in common, when they actually do.

Anderson, you bring up your gay cousins like a cautionary tale, but you NEVER said anything about loving them in such a way that they wouldn't need to LEAVE your family.
Invoking their memory the way you do is despicable.

You spread a fear WORSE than any disease and that has the potential to kill a lot more. Like hope, justice, fairness and education and empathy.


Homosexuals are not only
Homosexuals and pedophiles both need to be brought out of their closets. Law enforcement should be notified, school officials should be warned.
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