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Tuesday, January 13, 2009
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
From Jack Bauer to Leon Panetta
by Debra J. Saunders
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Sunday's New York Times ran two columns that advocated for investigations into America's use of coercive interrogation techniques -- known to editorial writers as "torture" -- of enemy combatants, as well as one that opposed a show trial. Also Sunday, television's "24" uber-agent Jack Bauer stood before a U.S. Senate subcommittee investigating intelligence abuses and gave a bombastic Senate inquisitor what-for: "Please do not sit there with that smug look on your face and expect me to regret the decisions that I have made, because, sir, the truth is, I don't.''

Asked if he had tortured a suspect, the Kiefer Sutherland character Bauer answered, "According to the Geneva Convention, yes, I did." Actually, according to any standard, Bauer tortured people. He shot and killed suspects, choked his brother and shot a suspect's wife in the leg.

The interrogation methods cited in the New York Times exist in a different universe. Yes, the techniques, which some Bush administration critics want to prosecute, were harsh. But there is strong reason to not call them torture. Grabbing, shaking, open-hand slapping, sleep deprivation, exposure to cold and even the simulated-drowning technique called waterboarding do not scar. They're not the sort of brutal punishment meted out by Saddam Hussein.

To the contrary, CIA agents have subjected themselves to waterboarding. "It wasn't viewed as ipso facto torture," a former CIA official told me, "because we don't torture our own people."

The harshest methods were not used routinely. The military never authorized harsh techniques, while the CIA used waterboarding -- according to CIA Director Michael Hayden and news reports -- not widely, but on three high-profile detainees.

Former CIA operative John Kiriakou told ABC's Brian Ross that the waterboarding of Abu Zubaydah "disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks." That's a lot of lives. Operatives didn't act on impulse, a la Jack Bauer. Kiriakou explained that agents had to ask the deputy director for operations before using any coercive technique.

Democrats in Congress -- and a handful of Republicans -- have had a fun time trashing the Bush administration for authorizing waterboarding. Senators tried to strong-arm now-Attorney General Michael Mukasey to classify waterboarding as torture during his confirmation hearings, and failed -- perhaps because, at the time, despite the rhetoric, Congress itself had failed to ban the practice.

President-elect Barack Obama has said that waterboarding is torture and hence verboten in Obamaland.

But do Democrats really want to ban the potential to use waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation techniques? Already news outlets are reporting on the downside to barring these techniques.

The Washington Post ran a story on the "perilous balancing act to fulfill his pledge to make a clean break with the detention and interrogation policies of the Bush administration while still effectively ensuring the nation's security." Newsweek reported on a Senate vote last year to require that CIA use only interrogation methods from the Army Field Manual: "These are extremely restrictive: strictly speaking, the interrogator cannot ever threaten bodily harm or even put a prisoner on cold rations until he talks. Bush vetoed this measure, not unwisely. As president, Obama may want to preserve some flexibility. (Suppose, for instance, that after a big attack the CIA captured the leader who planned it; there would be enormous pressure to make the terrorist divulge what attack is coming next.)"

Suppose? No need. The CIA waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks.

Ah, but that was under Bush. With Obama in the White House, the lexicon will change, from "torture" to "flexibility" to interrogate in the interests of national security.

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Sad but better than the alternative
Debra is right that under Obama, the same techiniques used by the Bush administration will now be praised as looking after our security rather than depraved Bush oppression. (assuming they are reported about at all) However, I'm willing to put up with the hypocrisy as long as we get the information we need to ferret out these animals and stop them from killing our kids.

I think there will be one significant difference. The media will not use every opportunity to highlight misconduct by the military, or to leak classified information, because they will now be trying to protect their chosen one's image. After all, it would be awfully embarrasing if the man who campaigned on throwing tea parties for the enemy was still making them stay up past their bedtime just to save lives! Therefore, all reports about "torture" will basically cease, and the Democrats will then claim this proves that nothing coercive is happening under Obama.

Matthew
While I agree with the sentiment, I have to worry that allowing the media this much hypocrisy opens us up to worse things in the future.

There are marked examples of the media being slanted to the left, and what typically passes for a defense is one instance or two in which they WEREN'T biased. Somehow, we have to hold the media responsible for what can only be described as reprehensible behavior during the Bush years, and I am not even a staunch Bush advocate.

The Decline of America
I love this line: "They're not the sort of brutal punishment meted out by Saddam Hussein."

Wow, as long as we aren't as bad as Saddam we are OK? IF Saunders is right, then America is truly in decline. I had thought we were supposed to be the best nation in the world, not the one trying to find ways to skirt the issues.

Jack (1:15 p.m. post)

Jack, you write well enough that I'm going to assume you are being intentionally partisan and provocative, and are not simply a moron.

But just in case, Ms. Saunders' point vis-a-vis the particular statement you criticize in your post is to challenge the left's persistent definition of the term "torture" to include what she otherwise concedes are harsh (but sometimes necessary) interrogation techniques. Stated otherwise, if you're not clear on what qualifies as torture, check out the behavior of Saddam Hussein.

This is a far cry from suggesting that Ms. Saunders cites Saddam Hussein as the standard for our nation's conduct.

I think you knew that, so shame on you. But if you didn't, then I suggest you check out your local community college to see if they can offer you remedial instruction in reading comprhension and logic.


Lost opportunity...
segment deleted from 24 script:)
SENATOR: "Mr. Bauer, you have admitted to committing torture. Now even if we can agree that your actions were taken to prevent an imminent attack, why in the hell shouldn't YOU spend the rest of your life behind bars for what you've done?"

IMHO, this would be the sanest approach overall. You, in the government, believe that you must commit an act of torture to prevent immediate disaster. So be it. Are you willing to personally go to jail after having done so? Make clear that, if the end justifies the means, the end will also justify the consequences for you.
-----------------
Down with fascism


The enemy
The enemy is still out there and will continue to look for ways to kill as many of us as they can. With the appointment of a party hack with zero intelligence experience or understanding, coupled with the ham-stringing of our intelligence services to collect and diseminate intelligence, Barack Obama is not only inviting another attack, he's encouraging it.

RW How Typical
Isn't it nice to be able to sit back in the warm, comfortable home of yours and judge the people who sacrifice to make it possible, while not spending 1 second in their shoes!

Jack
Let's say you and all the naysayers are in the crosshairs of some maggoty terrorist,and the CIA has one of the operatives and can stop it with information, how far should they go to get it? There is a universe of difference between Khalid Sheik Muhammad, Abu Zibaida and conducting a war against terrorist aggressors. Can you not see that? I ask you Lt Col Allen West was fined and his Army career ended for firing two shots next to the head of a mole that was feeding information on their activities to the Fedayeen Saddam in order to kill and him and his men. Was he wrong? What would you have done? Any outrage for those who cut off the heads of Pvt Keith Maupin, Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, the four Blackwater security specialist who were burned and hung from a bridge?

Personally
I think the torture issue should remain liquid and let each president set his own standards for it. So if Obama doesn't like water boarding then don't allow it, however if he fails to protect this nation and do all that is possible, he should also suffer the consequences. Every candidate should make their position a part of their platform and campaign and let the voters decide. Subsequent events have quite a way of changing minds.

Matthew
You are correct.

Lolo1
I like your position.

The first ten
The first ten responses are very congent today.I find it interesting that most people support the Jack Bauer approach which is the only sane way to address and respond to asymetrical warfare as utilized by Hamas and the various groups that wish us harm. The senator portrayed on 24 is the real deal,just look at the real life represenatives in our current House and Senate.

Water Boarding
This seems like a better definition of torture to me. If you aren't willing to have someone try it out on you...don't apply it to someone else. Waterboarding isn't even close to dropping someone's relatives into vats of acid.

Torture
I really don't understand how water boarding became torture. It obviously works really well...but it does not rank up their with cutting off parts of someone's body.

POLMsgt
Thank You!

Russ
"... sacrifices to make it possible."

Let's see... the person getting tortured, boy do they ever pay a price. And the US rule of law takes a major hit. Seem to me that the only player in this equation NOT currently paying a price is the torturer himself, who gets to knock off at 5, go back to the barracks, and complain that civilians can't handle the truth, etc. Putting him behind bars for what he's done seems the best, most just all-around sacrifice.


Augustine
Water boarding is very much torture and torture should be as odious to American spirit.

"In fact, waterboarding is just the type of torture then Lt. Commander John McCain had to endure at the hands of the North Vietnamese. As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest."

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-t orture-perio/

Making torture illegal in the US was the best law ever made.

So if waterboarding isn't torture..
... why isn't it standard procedure in every police interrrogation room in the US? If it's no big deal, what's the problem?


Russ
"Isn't it nice to be able to sit back in the warm, comfortable home of yours and judge the people who sacrifice to make it possible, while not spending 1 second in their shoes!"

This blog is by a marine, who know what he's talking about.

Torturing people has done great harm to our war on terror.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-t orture-perio/

RW
A building is on fire. You can see dozens of kids inside and risk your life multiple times to run into the building and rescue them. Should you now be prosecuted for the multiple counts of trespassing you committed?

I don't want people trespassing on my property, but if it is to save my kids, I'd be grateful for it. I don't want my government to have to use brutal methods of interrogation, but if it will save innocent lives, I will continue to be grateful for our safety.

btw, here's a way for those concerned about being tortured to avoid it...DON"T GET CAUGHT IN TERRORIST HQs!!!

There are a great many
men in the military who have irst hand knowedge of torture how wrong it is to use. Just two...

"A U.S. military interrogator offers a first hand account of his experience in Iraq, the brutal methods he and others routinely employed, and why he came to believe U.S interrogation tactics fail both morally and strategically."
Tony Lagouranis, former U.S. Army Specialist from 2001 to 2005.

"Robert Conquest, a venerable sovietologist and favorite historian of conservatives, who Bush awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, called these (USSR) tactics "torture," stating that "Torture is...a worse crime against humanity than killing.” If these sorts of actions were “torture” when the Soviet Union engaged in them, they are “torture” when we do them."

and here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etJhQ-ZzqDw&eurl=http://reme mberruss.blogspot.com/

Actually
That was 3, I added one more at the last second.

RW
The police don't waterboard because they aren't allowed to use ANY type of coersive interrogation. We provide all types of protections to regular criminals that we do and should not provide to terrorists.

Is it really so hard to understand that terrorists are not common criminals? If a policeman fails to get the right information from a regular crook, even a murderer, a few people might die. If an interrogator fails to get the right info from a terrorist, hundreds of thousands could be killed. Do you see any reason why we might let the second have a little more leeway in getting the information?

Personally, I like the Alan Dershowitz idea. He has argued that there will be rare times when torture is necessary to prevent a catastrophic disaster. However, we don't want it to be done secretly and whenever any particular agent feels like using it, as it can be abused. Therefore, under his plan an agent would be required to get a warrant from a FISA judge that would allow torture only in specific and extraordinary cases. It's not perfect, but I think it is an appropriate compromise.

I love the moral
superiority of some but they think nothing of what the terrorists are doing and that terrorism in of itself is torture.

War is ugly folks and if you do not want never ending war then you best use every tool in your arsenal to end it. Even the terrorists know this. Just look at the Palestinians. I may disagree with them but even I can see they are using every tool in their arsenal including propaganda. While I fault them, I can see they want to win. Isn't that the point?

The uglier the war the better because it means less war.

Matthew
I see some problems in that idea.

1. It morally degrades our nation and the person who has to do it.

I saved this quote from a few years back.

"I recently was talking with a Senator who said to me, 'Professor, we didn’t ask the terrorists to sign the Geneva Conventions. How can you expect us to abide by commitments that they don’t adhere to?' To which I replied, 'Yes, and we didn’t ask the whales to sign the Whaling Convention either. We sign these treaties to protect us from ourselves, not from them.'

2. For many more reasons see link posted above.

Torture
"Subject: I love the moral
superiority of some but they think nothing of what the terrorists are doing and that terrorism in of itself is torture."

You don't get it. Torturing people HARMS our war effort.

.. tonight ABC ( http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/cia-rendition- t.html ) has just provided an exclusive on official confirmation from the CIA as to how rendering al-Qaeda camp commander Ibn al Sheikh al-Libi to Egypt, so that their agents could methodically torture him for us, led to him feeding us a crock of bullsh*t about "how Saddam Hussein had been training al Qaeda in chemical weapons. This evidence was used by Colin Powell at the United Nations a year earlier (February 2003) to justify the war in Iraq. ('I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these [chemical and biological] weapons to al Qaeda,' Powell said. 'Fortunately, this operative is now detained, and he has told his story.'

There are many more example like this.

More
"The greatest damage came from Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi. Chief of an al-Qaida training camp, he was captured by Pakistanis shortly after 9/11 and handed over to Egyptian interrogators, who pressed him for damaging information on Saddam Hussein. Al-Libi didn't even understand what "biological weapons" were, and at first he was so confused by the line of questioning he couldn't come up with a story. Soon enough, he figured out what his interrogators wanted, and the tale he fabricated -- WMD flowing in an unbroken line from Saddam to al-Qaida -- became a decisive factor in the decision to go to war. When asked later why he had lied, al-Libi had a simple explanation: "They were killing me. I had to tell them something."

Taft
Your comment on al-Libi is a good argument for why we shouldn't use rendition and allow other countries to do our dirty work. However, it is not a good argument against competent American interrogators using harsh interrogation techniques.

In places like Egypt and other third-world countries, torture is used frequently and indiscriminately. It is often done for the sake of hurting th person rather than getting real information. It is not corroborated with other evidence and testimony.

We are much more effective, and we have used techniques like waterboarding to get actionable intelligence that saved lives.

Jack Bauer is a fictional
character.

Matthew
There are just too many military experts who disagree and who have studied and dealt with torture. As for Egypt doing a lousy job, they are pros.

This major does a fine job describing the practice.

http://www.mcitta.org/torture.htm

Also,
5 myths about torture

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/1 2/13/AR2007121301303.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

and a SERE instructor

More on the strategic ineffectiveness of torture from 20-year SERE Instructor Michael Nance (who will be testifying to this effect before the House tomorrow): http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004659.php .
5 myths about torture

Matthew
This is a long post, but, I think very important.

--
"increasingly, however, those with access to the inner workings of the Bush administration's counterterrorism program have begun to question those claims. In March 2008, after President Bush announced his intention to veto legislation requiring the CIA to abide by the same interrogation rules as the military, Senator Jay Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, challenged the administration's entire rationale. Rockefeller's criticism over the years was muted, at best, and so his bold rebuke was particularly noteworthy. "As Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee," a statement he released said,

I have heard nothing to suggest that information obtained from enhanced interrogation techniques has prevented an imminent terrorist attack. And I have heard nothing that makes me think the information obtained from these techniques could not have been obtained through traditional interrogation methods used by military and law enforcement interrogators. On the other hand, I do know that coercive interrogations can lead detainees to provide false information in order to make the interrogation stop.
In other words, according to one of the few US officials with full access to the details, the drastic "ticking time bomb" threat used to justify what many Americans would otherwise consider indefensible tactics had never actually occurred, other than on the TV sets of those watching Fox-TV's terrorism fantasy show 24."

Part two

"Rockefeller asserted that the Bush administration's approach was not only unnecessary, it was also undermining the security that it claimed to safeguard. "The CIA's program damages our national security by weakening our legal and moral authority, and by providing al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups a recruiting and motivational tool," he said. "By continuing this interrogation program, the President is sacrificing our strategic advantage for questionable tactical gain."

Doubt has begun to emerge from within the administration itself, too. In 2006, a scientific advisory group to the US intelligence agencies produced an exhaustive report on interrogation called "Educing Information," which concluded that there was no scientific proof whatsoever that harsh techniques worked. In fact, several of the experts involved in the study described the infliction of physical and psychological cruelty as outmoded, amateurish, and unreliable."

From Jane Mayer's the Dark Side

In confidential interviews, several of those with inside information about the NSA's controversial Terrorist Surveillance Program have expressed similar disenchantment. As one of these former officials says of the ultrasecret program so furiously defended by David Addington, chief of staff and former counsel to Vice President Cheney, "It's produced nothing."

Chloe Astutely Observes (5:57 post):

"Jack Bauer is a fictional
character."

Willers replies: As is most everything "reported" in the New York Times with regard to our nation's efforts at defending itself.

For my neocon tastes, I prefer Jack Bauer (despite having never watched a single episode of "24").


Daft
Is a simpering sissy. Failing that, an enemy of the People of the United States and an aplogist for the villains of our world.

......................
The reason why many wet their beds and weep over torture is because we've become an effete feminized nation, not to mention morally backward. Leftists, do you think the islamists are worried about what we think when they're gouging out the eyes out of one of our captured soldiers? We don't torture people for shyts & giggles, it is done with discretion and has worked. It is also one of the tools to extract info and should not be removed from the interrogators arsenal.

My understanding is that every American soldier undergoes waterboarding in training. It is extremely effective while being incredibly humane. No bones are broken, no scars, no dislocations, no permanent damage whatsoever. It is an excellent method to induce terror, much in the same way hamas uses rockets to terrorize Israelis; except with the rockets Israelis have been killed and injured.

I'm also completely fine with fists instead of open hand slaps. Who growing up [liberals males excluded, we know you were playing with dolls] didn't get into a fist fight or 20? Little did we know we were torturers. Hell, some of us could have been brought up on crimes against humanity. This is the world Orwell warned us about; here it is in all its glory.

Torture
To anyone who thinks waterboarding is torture,it may well be. It is not fatal. Making an innocent person kneel,blindfolded,hands lashed behind their backs preparing to be beheaded,is torture. It is fatal,also.

I saw a FOX News reporter waterboarded and have heard some G.I's are required to go through it.

I would wager any one of you who has children or grandchildren,including B.Hussein,and one of those children was kidnapped for ransom,would be willing to do anything,including waterboarding to force information from the kidnapper. What do you have to lose?

......................
-------Waterboarding is torture...that is why the SS under Adolf Hitler used it. …....Power Ranger-----

You poor dumb b@stard, you must be related to tom in WI. The nazis also used real bullets as did we, therefore we must be just like them.


-----It doesnt matter that we "dont kill the person", that excuse is so lame "I had the gun but I wouldnt have killed anyone"..-------

Incoherent gibberish. The liberal mind is truly a wasteland.

The Great Satan
Great posts!

The Great Stain
"This is the world Orwell warned us about,,,"

As in "the future of humanity is a boot stamping a human face, forever?" If so, it will be a reality show on Fox, and probably win its time slot.

Methinks you substitute abuse for logic.


The Great Satan - Not Me
Count me out of the "effete feminized nation"!

I am a gun-carrying, shoot first and ask questions later, waterboard for information, death to terrorists, no illegals chick.

If you don't believe me, then ask the 6 illegals that took it upon themselves to fix my roof after Katrina. One ballistic test into my swimming pool allowed a 98 pound chick to emasculate the whole crew. No mas! No mas!

Taft
Are you posting repeatedly on this topic because you like to hear yourself talk.

Let me give you a few pointers. No one is asking the military to water board. Tenet testified as to the efficacy and the circumstances to which water boarding should be used. Rendition was the invention of Clinton, did you complain then? Did it ever occur to you the reason our military is water boarded as part of her training?

Taft
Excuse the typo...last sentence should as part of their training.


Good Night!

Where, O, Where Is Mohammed Atta II?
Lord knows that we need him to wipe out government liberals and all liberals in general.

Denise
Ditto!!!

lolo1- Ditto, Ditto
I'm glad that you aren't the only chick. Oh, we must add Anne.

Taft
I like your "it morally degrades the nation" argument.

Not to change the subject but, how do you feel about abortion and gay marriage?

Bacteria
Denise
Thank G-D you will be a Minority very soon
Learn Spanish NOW

Baci, I speak Spanish AND French with a little Russian and Chinese.

As for "blue ice", I get a little from the Slurpee Stand. And, if when I decide to rink, I would get some Blue Ice from the driv thru daquri stands.

In the meantime, I will love my blue ice diammonds.

Bacteria
And, you will ALWAYS be dumb and poor.

Lots of Different Methods of *torture*
I'm not sure what Gov/Sen. Rockefeller's response to Prez Bush has to do with it--He came here as a *Carpetbagger* (Peace Corps I think) so I doubt he's an expert..
5 nites & 4 Days under triple-canopy trees in a Monsoon hopin like H3LL the Jolly Greens could find a break in the clouds to come get Ur SORRY ARSE might alter some perceptions of "Torture" and "people might think badly of me"..JUST A THOUGHT Cheers!!!

...........
Lolo1, thank you.

Denise, I would never throw Conservative women in with what I described. And any Conservative women married to liberal men understand very well that they're the first line of defense in the household.

For Kiddies & The Rest of Us
Chloe-the-Wunderkind, Bacteria, Call-a-Drunk, Deranged Potion No 29 and Daft:

Let's chuck waterboarding and substitute bullets as there would be no "torture" involved.

Stop giving a Gitmo a Wii gamestation and use the money to provide non-Bill Ayres' approved textbooks to children.

PSSST! Money grows on trees.

For the sane amongst us-

Predictions for 2009 and 2010: there will be a (continued) run on guns and ammo, Kleenex and Viagra so as to "stimulate" the economy.

Illegals will continue to deport themselves due to the lack of jobs.

Employ the Crips and the Bloods to substitute Israeli soldiers in the fight with Hamas; thereby, stimulating the economy while decimating Hamas.

Almost all problems solved.

If the world is supposed to end on 12.21.12 according to the Mayan Calendar, lets party like its 12.20.12.

Me thinks that Prince needs to remake "Party Like It's 1999,

Chloe- Fictional v. Fictional
"Subject: Jack Bauer is a fictional
character."

No sh!t! But, Panetta IS a fictional nominee for the CIA.

I would take Bauer over Panetta anyday.

Denise
"Let's chuck waterboarding and substitute bullets as there would be no "torture" involved."

If they are in battle, of course they shoot them. Are you talking about having them murder people? Our military will never allow that. What sort of monster would ask our troops to torture people? I have read what its done to some of them that had to do it, and it isn't pretty.

One other disingenuous piece of b.s. being bandied about is that one is weak not to torture or that it's just the liberals against it. I have posted in this thread many military heroes , and can more, who are adamantly against it. It HURTS our war effort.

Also, the Great Satan,

Ranger was right, the sort of governments the US has always despised are the ones like Stalin, Hitler, and Pol pot, that torture.


Terrorism v.Terrorism?
Waterboarding is torture, but cutting off Daniel Pearl's head isn't?

To prove the lunacy of those promoting the idea that waterboarding is torture, I, hereby, offer up myself for the procedure.

If waterboarding saves ONE human life, so be it since I will be alive to tell y'all all about it.

Denise
These terrorists do all sorts of things that we do not want to emulate. You're desperate to grab at anything to justify and unjustifiable act. We haven't saved any lives with torture but have done great harm to our war on terrorism and our efforts in Iraq. Just how many dead soldiers did we get when news our our methods were sent around the world. According to our military, it was the number one source for new jihadis to come and kill. Its insane to think torture is anything but evil. Name one great nation that tortures. Nazi Germany, the 1000 year reich, Stalin's USSR, Pol Pot, The Shah, are all history.

Torture
"
Before arriving for my assignment at SERE, I traveled to Cambodia to visit the torture camps of the Khmer Rouge. The country had just opened for tourism and the effect of the genocide was still heavy in the air. I wanted to know how real torturers and terror camp guards would behave and learn how to resist them from survivors of such horrors. I had previously visited the Nazi death camps Dachau and Bergen-Belsen. I had met and interviewed survivors of Buchenwald, Auschwitz and Magdeburg when I visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. However, it was in the S-21 death camp known as Tuol Sleng, in downtown Phnom Penh, where I found a perfectly intact inclined waterboard. Next to it was the painting on how it was used. It was cruder than ours mainly because they used metal shackles to strap the victim down, and a tin flower pot sprinkler to regulate the water flow rate, but it was the same device I would be subjected to a few weeks later."

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-t orture-perio/

Daft, Where's Your KSM album?
"We haven't saved any lives with torture but have done great harm to our war on terrorism"

I guess RONCO failed to send you KSM's Greatest Hits.

Again, for the brain-dead, I have already stated that I would substitute "torture" with bullets.

And, when the terrorist strike CA, you might want to brush up on your Farsi and other Arabic languages. The terrorists aren't going to target decimated NOLA for decimation. Mother Nature beat them to the punch.

Meanwhile, I'll be speaking English in LA or Spanish in Cabo San Lucas where I have a beach house.

Adios, Amigo.

KSM

The information he gave saved lives? How?

The Hard Truth

Torturing people has HURT our war effort tremendously! The Nazis thought they were winning because of their extensive use of torture. When D-Day arrived, everything unraveled, the French, and other resistance forces where as determined as ever to wipe out Nazism. The French used torture a lot in Vietnam... History is littered with stories of the losers who use torture. Our servicemen who were in charge of interrogation during WW II, are appalled that we would adapt methods used by evil regimes.

Against waterboarding
How do you propose to gain information, I cited Lt Col Allen West and he was punished for saving the lives of his troops. In a timely manner how do you get intel? Coffee, doughnuts and eight hours sleep, that will show them,that may be too rough, scratch the coffe and make it tea.
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