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Monday, July 14, 2008
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Wiretapping and Toe Tapping
by Debra J. Saunders
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Hey, it's politics. In the primary, when Barack Obama wanted to connect with his party's disaffected left, he said that he would support a filibuster to stop a reauthorization of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act if it granted retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that had cooperated with the federal government after the 9/11 attacks.

Now Obama has those voters in the bag. So he is reaching out to the majority of Americans who want aggressive international surveillance to prevent another terrorist attack.

And the average voter certainly isn't going to lose sleep if the price of that security is that the ACLU does not have carte blanche to sue AT&T for cooperating with the government.

Wednesday, Obama was one of 69 senators who voted for the FISA bill that provided retroactive immunity to the telecoms.

Obama called it "compromise." For his part, Obama also voted -- wrongly, I think -- in support of failed amendments to limit retroactive immunity. But at least he showed up to vote -- which is more than you can say for John McCain, who was too busy campaigning. (It's true; McCain knew that if he skipped the vote, the FISA bill would pass overwhelmingly. Still, the Arizona senator passed up an opportunity to show the public his support for tighter national security.)

The passage of the bill brings to the fore the constant dynamic in Democratic politics during the Dubya years. Leading Democrats have used the wiretapping issue to discredit George W. Bush in a successful bid to lather up the lefties and win control of Congress. Now in power, they give Bush what he wants -- on war funding and now the wiretap bill.

An open letter from 23,000 Obama supporters who had urged him to vote against the FISA bill asked the "change" candidate to at least make good on his pledge of a comprehensive review of the wiretap program, to revisit the bill if elected, and to "promise to use the full power of the presidency to expose the truth. A full investigation of Bush's illegal 'terrorist surveillance program' needs to be conducted by your administration."

Translation: If Obama promises to beat up on Bush from the Oval Office, Obamaphiles can overlook a vote that, to them, sold out their civil liberties.

Which they really, really care about. The ACLU contends that the FISA Amendments Act is unconstitutional. Although the measure "prohibits the government from intentionally 'targeting' people inside the U.S.," read an ACLU statement, "it places virtually no restrictions on the government's targeting of people outside the U.S., even if those targets are communicating with U.S. citizens and residents."

Don't we want U.S. intelligence agencies to spy overseas? Isn't that what they're for? I asked ACLU attorney Melissa Goodman. She replied, "We think that the courts should be involved."

Bill language of course prohibits targeted surveillance of Americans without a warrant. Not good enough, Goodman argued, because "targeted" is not defined. The ACLU wants the courts on top of the safeguards of inspectors general and congressional oversight.

The ACLU warned that journalists could be targets, too. Goodman noted that in 2002, the FBI knocked on the door of author Lawrence Wright, as he was researching his Pulitzer Prize-winning book on al-Qaida, "The Looming Tower," and asked why his daughter had been talking to a Brit who was in contact with al-Qaida. She hadn't. He had been talking to a British lawyer who represented family members of Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama's top lieutenant.

That's the downside of intelligence. Sometimes it's downright stupid. But tying the hands of intelligence isn't smart either. Bush has been right to fight suits against telecom companies that cooperated with federal officials.

ACLU attorney Harvey Grossman argued that phone companies broke a "social compact" with their customers when they handed information to the feds. And, he noted, they knew better. Grossman contended that lawsuits against Big Phone would have provided "accountability."

That's a word Democrats who voted against the bill used, too. And it's bunk. They don't want accountability. Bush was held accountable by voters, who in 2004 decided Bush would be better on national security, so they re-elected him.

Now Obama wants to be accountable, too -- in the Bush way, that is.

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Flip-flop B.Hussein Obama's
Will you trust B.Hussein Obama? He will do anything to get elected, NAFTA, Gun Rights, FISA, etc. He has no mind of his own, he is not only a hypocrite but a liar gettinng the credit about the Alhget asbestos item but actually did nothing. He said he was born i Hawaii but there is no record that he was born there. What now Mr B.Hussein Obama?

wiseone (10:56)
Virginia, founded in 1607, was the first English colony on the Eastern Seaboard. Contrary to expectations, the settlers found no water route to the Orient and no gold or silver. The colony nearly folded.

John Rolfe (Mr. Pocahontas) turned it around in 1612, when he planted seeds of _Nicotiana tabacum_ from the Caribbean. (The natives of Virginia grew a harsher, stronger species, _N. rustica_, in which Rolfe saw no commercial potential.) By 1614, the colony was shipping tobacco to England. By 1619, when the first black indentured servants arrived, tobacco had become a major export and a substitute currency. Authorities had to compel farmers to grow _food_ along with tobacco. The region became known as the Tobacco Coast. The need for land -- tobacco quickly depletes the soil -- drove rapid expansion. Immigration from England could no longer meet the demand for labor, so slavery took hold. Indians and occasionally even whites were enslaved, but Africa provided a more reliable supply of unwilling workers.

Cotton was around from the beginning, but it didn't ascend the throne until after Eli Whitney had invented the cotton gin in 1793.

Once again the left misunderstands
There is a big difference between allowing the gov't to wiretap a phone conversation and allowing the evidence obtained from that wiretap to be used as evidence in a court of law.

Historically cops and feds have obtained 'evidence' from all kinds of searches that were later ruled "illegal"or "unwarranted". In the end, no matter what the revised FISA law says, there will ALWAYS be court over-sight because any judge who feels that the 4th Amendment rights of the accused have been violated can throw the evidence out when the case comes to trial.

In the meantime, the feds may just learn something, warranted search or otherwise, that stops another terrorist attack.

Another thing leftists and libertarians need to consider is that it is not enough to be allowed to sue phone companies for violating a customer's privacy. In order to collect the plaintiffs have to show real damages. That means they have to show that somehow the innocent customer suffered real harm from having their conversations monitored. Do we have any examples of anyone whose life has been ruined by an 'unwarranted' search? Not so far to my knowledge, so why all the feigned outrage and nashing of teeth?

Then again, what good is a practical discussion like this when one has to go up against the left's BDS and the extremist crackpot lawyers at the ACLU? One might as well talk to the wall.

For Paleocon
" I hate the weed that opened the door to large-scale slavery in this country. "

I was taught that "cotton is king", meaning that it was cotton that drove the economy of the South and was the primary labor of slaves before the Civil War. Where did you get that it was tobacco?

As a followup to the toe tapping comment
If the tapping device is on the toe, and it also contains a camera, that is deadlier than patent leather shoes.

Toe Tapping?
That wouldn't be the kind of tapping done in airport restrooms would it?

Just as long as they keep out the cameras...

Jim
I hate the smell and taste of tobacco. I don't allow smoking in my house, my car, or any other space that I rightfully control. (I once offered to put out a legislator's cigarette with a fire extinguisher. That's one reason I'm no longer a bureaucrat.) I hate the weed that opened the door to large-scale slavery in this country. Tobacco has killed millions outright. It has taken up resources -- land, labor, laboratory space -- better devoted to better things. I wish that no one used tobacco.

Selling tobacco to minors is properly illegal, and those who break that law should be punished. But grownups are still allowed to produce, distribute, and sell the stuff. I think that's a simple statement of fact, not an oversimplification.

The 1998 master settlement between Big Gummint and Big Tobacco and countless smaller legal actions are based on the fiction that cigarettes, for example, are "defective products" because they're harmful. They're not defective, however, in the sense that early Corvairs were. Cigarettes do perfectly well what they were designed to do: give nicotine addicts a fix. If you disagree, apply this test: describe a non-defective cigarette. (The argument that handguns are defective because they fire projectiles is equally risible. Handguns were never meant to be paperweights.)

Tobacco is heavily regulated, exhaustively researched, and still *subsidized* by government. If a single leaf of truly defective tobacco ever hit the market, government would be culpable.

If tobacco products and firearms are by their very nature defective, politicians should step up and ban them. If not, they should stop trying to extort money themselves from people who aren't breaking the law, and they should be far less sanguine about letting others do so.

Too many states have bought itno the ADA
Being a truck driver, I am convinced that the white and yellow "Turtles" that are placed on the highways of some states are there as Braille lane marking for the blind driver.

Back to the topic...

I don't have a problem with the Patriot Act Wiretapping. I could care less if the government decided to tap my phone. I have nothing to hide. Even if I am having phone sex with my girlfriend while the wife is gone. LOL Might even give the listener a thrill.

However, I do have one problem. My wife and girlfriend met... and they like eachother.

.

Note to Paleocon #13
Like most folks Paleocon grossly oversimplifies the issue. Firearms may be "legal" but a defective firearm or one sold to a felon or minor should be penalized. Cigarettes may be "legal" but selling them a minor or concealing research data from the public ]and federal regulators] which confirms the detrimental effects of tobacco [cancer, lung diseases, etc.] should be penalized. I spent forty years managing [as a non-lawyer] high-impact lawsuits against corporations. Certainly there were some abuses by litigants and their lawyers, but the unconscionable mischief of which business and corporations are capable would boggle your mind. Furthermore, corporations have huge influence when lobbying for litigation relief but the individual or small business owner has little or no influence with their lawmakers in litigation reform. When you find yourself severely injured because of a corporations misconduct or products you'll be thankful for the remedies which the system provides.

Jim-Too

Vic
That's a good ADA story. One wonders when commercial airlines will be required to provide labels for all cockpit instruments and controls in Braille. Thanks, too, for pointing me toward the Langer column. I would've responded sooner, but I hadda go to work.

INDEPENDENCE PARTY MEMBER RESPONSE:

"""""""" DON'T BOGART THE JOINT """"""""

This entire bugaboo has to do with smoking marijuana anywhere and not getting arrested. Too much of the stuff and the user gets paranoid protecting stash and mule train getting more supply.

This is the perfidy of the dope smoker viciously attacking and against the guy smoking tobacco as if marijuana never causes lung disease.

This INDEPENDENCE PARTY MEMBER VOTER is most concerned with public safety. Within the past six months a mystery bomber on bicycle exploded a small bomb device in front of the Armed Forces Recruitment Center in Times Square and never found and arrested. With a weakling President this sort of thing will happen often here in NYC and other places large and small.

---------- NO ONE WILL BE SAFE! -------

Koolhand
just what part of the 4th amendment prohibits monitoring telephone calls in foreign countries.

WOBBLIES
A Group considering themselves the new I.BW. - Wobblies met at a meeting in a San Francisco Starbucks.

Sipping Lattes, Cappuccinos, and Espresso de Beatnik the clutch of economic political geniusi’ paid their twenty dollar coffee tab and joined forces to take over the world.


FISA
"Flagged calls were reviewed by intel analysts. All other transmissions were dumped without even being recorded." And you know that for sure how exactly? The software uses keywords not all of which would instantly identify the call. So it's likely that those telecoms who simply gave Echelon all access to all customers violated the rights of those customers under the Constitution (for a bunch who claim to support "originalism 9(which covers a multitude of sins itself))and this law covers up that liability.
There is and was nothing under the existing FISA law that kept the NSA from ferreting out terrorists. They could tap phones for 72 hours WITHOUT a warrant.
You give away the 4th Amendment too easily.

"I.W.W Wobbles of the 1930’s." Actually they were more prominent during the first world war and were suppressed by Wilson then.

Our Security Problems
are so bad that one more terrorist attack won't solve. Let's face it, the FBI, CIA, and FTC blew it on 9/11. We all remember the Gorelick Memo which forbade the FBI and CIA from sharing sensitive intel, and the few FBI agents who did connect the dots, but were cashiered for waking thier snoozing masters in the Beltway. We also remember everytime we fly how the Beltway reacted to 9/11: not by punishing the terrorists, but the airline passengers.

About 90% of all internet and cell-phone traffic world-wide gets routed through several communication backbones hosted in New York City, Chicago, LA, Atlanta, and Dallas. To say, that the NSA cannot intercept any of this traffic without a court order is absurd. The NSA might as well just close up shop. Ultimately, the ACLU wants to courts to supervise all CIA/NSA activity regardless of where the intel orignates from. Currently, if a call is made from Kabul to Terhan, but gets routed through NYC, the NSA must get a warrant to wiretap the call. We are just asking for trouble.

More political BS
Now Chuckie Cheese is being cited for releasing loetters that caused a billion dollar run on a bank and it's failure; all for laying politics

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/07/feds-cite-sc hum.html

RW
thanks for sharing nothing to this thread! Though, its nothing new of course.

I suspect that...
... a FISA law being pushed by a Democratic president would have a lot of conservatives viewing it very differently.

It is all political BS
I don’t think the Commiecrats are really concerned with monitoring these calls. I think the entire issue has always been a political stunt to harp on Bush. Of course the moonbats out in extreme left field have picked up on the talking point and raised holy h*ll with it in their demented BDS syndrome.

This is why O’Vomit spoke out initially but then voted to OK it. Some Dems voted against it to satisfy their extreme Kosite constituency, but only after assuring that they had the votes to make it pass. This is done at the direction of Red Nancy to make sure the commies are not embarrassed during an election year.

The moonbats however will continue to scream their BDS and gnaw the ground and grass.

Meanwhile the government has the federal version of Niphong out there prosecuting lobster catches with 5% of their catch below 5.5” which isn’t even against U.S. law and we don’t hear a peep.

Moutain Rose
not to worry! The good folks here can tell the difference between a "Rose" and a "Thorn".
Rose is a wanna-be!

I see all the paranoid nuts
think that the FBI wants to listen to them whine to mummy about their BDS! I'm glad to see that do to the FISA act, another Al Q group was arrested in Toledo OH last month. Oh, for all you whinning nutjobs out there, these were folks planning to KILL you! Have a nice day whackos!

Right you are Vic!
The operative word in the 4th Amendment is UNREASONABLE searches and seizures.

This means that there is such a thing as REASONABLE searches (or surveilance), and in my mind, it is reasonable to conduct intelligence operations to discover people who want to overthrow your government.

I know the Lefties disagree, because their entire goal is to tear down the United States of America and replace it with the People's Republic of America.

Rose - methinks you protest too much
Are you Kimmie in disguise? You are a disgrace to the name Rose!!!

The Lefties are hysterical about the chance that the government might find out about their subversive plots.

They didn't worry a bit when Shrillary and Billary kept a mass of FBI files on their political enemies in the White House, because the Clintoons were Leftie America haters like themselves.

The Leftie howling over the Patriot Act only demonstrates that they have a consciousness of guilt over the plots to deconstruct America and take it over in a bloodless coup.

WHY I MAY NOT VOTE FOR McCAIN
I consider the Global Warming Hoax America's greatest economic threat and we will not defeat it with a Republican President such as McCain who believes in Global Warming.

In 2010 with Obama as president and a Democratic congress with a 9% approval rating, I see the Republicans sweeping into the majority with a campaign accusing Dems of fraud with their Global Warming scam which will be obvious by then. We can not do this if McCain is president.

That is why this Conservative - Republican feels a McCain loss may not be the worst of a bad situation and I may not vote for McCain.


Vic
To amplify your post @ 3:24, not only is the world populated with those who wish us harm via terrorism, but the technological nature of communications has changed with calls being routed circuitously around the world without regard for borders. The so-called warrantless wiretapping worked thusly: Intel agents and soldiers collected cell phones from bad guys they captured in the field, also collected names and numbers during interrogation of detainees. This information gave them a list of numbers to monitor. When any call was made to or from a suspect number, the transmission was passed through a software filter programmed to flag words and phrases that may indicate communication of a terrorist nature. Flagged calls were reviewed by intel analysts. All other transmissions were dumped without even being recorded. How that violates anyone's civil liberties eludes the thought processes of any sentient being. The immunity issue was another attempt to provide a big payday to plaintiffs' attorneys(I wonder which party supported that!).

"INDEPENDENXE PARTY VOTERS"
Modern Democrat Liberals fancy themselves as “Progressives” with or without reference to the I.W.W Wobbles of the 1930’s. The only distinction between a Liberal and a Progressive is that the Liberal prefers to just jump directly off the cliff while the Progressive wants to fly off by Pogo-Stick. This is an apparent example of the current political landscape.
The ever creative Democrats have a broadband allegiance spanning Labor Front Blue Collar working Americans stretched to the intellectual college formulated Anti-War Leftist “Progressives” while the Republicans Party stands naked shone detached from its Conservative mantle. There is an opportunity here to expand identity and possible detach from the stagnant Republican Party hierarchy by forming the “Independence Party.” The manifesto measurement scale of the Independence Party would be determined by the increase or decrease in independence; ergo, would exploring for domestic petroleum based energy products increase or decrease our nation’s independence; or, having the government provide universal health insurance coverage will increase or decrease personal independence and freedom; or, to allow for the public licensing of “Marriage” by two people of the same sex will increase or decrease independence and responsibility as a society; or, would a flat-tax or value-added tax (VAT) scheme be a more “Independence” means to maintain government solvency and operations. By definition if the program or proposition increases independence it should be accepted, if it decreases independence it should fail.

Paleocon
Look at the Langer column and see more BS litigation of the criminal variety.

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/AndrewLanger/2008/07/14/ when_governments_attack!?comments=true#postComments

Paleocon
LOL, I could tell you some stories about ADA. here's one involving my wife.

At the place where she used to work as a general maintenance tech they built a new rather large building. Once the contractor turned over the building (after a walkdown by civil eng) she was called in.

She had to replace EVERY door knob/handle in the building to standards that would be in compliance with ADA.

And this was at a site where people with disabilities of a "mechanical" nature could not work for safety considerations.

I say mechanical nature because now it seems that everything is a disability. This is one law which the intent has been severly abused and should either be repealed or rewritten to assure it covers the intent.

Vic
Amen. Since when has doing nothing illegal been a defense against frivolous, vindictive, destructive litigation? Cigarettes and firearms are legal, but the companies that make and sell them have been shaken down for hundreds of billions of dollars by state and federal governments, not to mention private citizens.

NOTE TO POLITICIANS #1: That's real money.

In my ignoble career as a bureaucrat, I had to ensure my agency's compliance with the new Americans with Disabilities Act. The official orientation package came with a list of preferred consultants (i.e., cronies) who would, for a steep fee, help bring us up to speed. It also contained a series of startling caveats: In the event of a lawsuit, virtually nothing, including hiring these consultants, would be taken as evidence of a good-faith effort to comply with the ADA. Following their recommendations to the letter would not be a defense. And these very consultants would not be prevented from helping any plaintiff screw us.

NOTE TO POLITICIANS #2: If you want to prohibit something, have the courage to go ahead and prohibit it. Don't say it's all right, then destroy those foolish enough to take you at your word.


Neveranythingbutaliberal
Perhaps you would like to spend 99% of your salary for the next 100 years defending yourself from frivolous lawsuits in selected courts with judges and juries hostile to you.

If that happended you may figure it out.

Emendation
Being caffeine-deprived, I made a misstatement in my previous post. A lot of people made a fuss when they found out that the Clintons had hijacked the FBI files of numerous political enemies. In the summer of '96, however, the press was too busy having fun with Bob Dole's tumble off a stage in Chico, Cal., to pay much attention to the wholesale misuse of classified material. Consequently, those who thought that this was a big deal couldn't persuade the public to take it seriously.

Interesting
that nobody raised much of a fuss when Clinton wiretapped everybody he could think of after the Oklahoma City bombing. Or when his administration used the global resources of Echelon to give American companies an edge over foreign competitors. Or when it was revealed that the NSA had kept tabs on Princess Diana and God-knows-who-else on Clinton's watch. Or when those 900-odd FBI files turned up in the White House. (Chuck Colson got into a peck of trouble for mishandling _one_ FBI file, that of Daniel Ellsberg.)

My point is not that Clinton's abuses entitle Bush to a pass. It is that the Left and the press -- but I repeat myself -- have lost what little credibility they ever had by practicing selective outrage and by mule-headedly refusing to recognize the difference between bad surveillance and good. If there is a valid argument against intercepting foreign communications that happen to pass through this country, the Bush administration's most extreme critics have lost any standing to make it.

It will be interesting...
...to see if the people who support this wiretapping law feel the same way if Obama wins the election and control of this over-reaching amendment is in the hands of the democrats.

I am still looking for the answer to the following question. If Bush and the telecoms did nothing illegal then why the need/demand for retroactive immunity?

Methinks Too Much Protest
The 4th Amendment says:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
___________________________________

I do not think that listening in on calls outside the U.S. which happen to connect through the U.S. system of which are even with an American citizen inside the U.S. violate the above. First off, given today’s terrorist environment , I think that kind of monitoring is not only “reasonable” but it is prudent. Second off, under the law the monitoring does have court involvement.

On this score I disagree with Bob Barr and the Dems must be scared of the common sense aspects of this or they would be screaming to the high heaven about it during an election year.

Destroying Our U.S. Constitution
It appears that the federal government is more interested in using 911 to diminish the rights guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution by pushing for absolute power which we have been warned against under the guise protection which by-passes a judge's approval and checks & balances leaving the door WIDE open for abuse - Good grief, the only one who dies on American soil while going through airport security was a woman with her hands cuffed behind her back who they said killed herself - Now, that's quite a phenomenon that remains a mystery!

Pappy Michael says:
"Personally I am against wire taps without court oversight; on Americans within the US."

You won't find too many who will disagree with you on that point. It's no surprise, however, that you are not aware that the bill does not eliminate court oversight. The media has been quite negligent by clouding that fact. They apparently feel it is more important that you believe that your rights are being "chipped away" by the evil Bush regime.

This sort of media spin is usually appreciated by the Democrats, but it causes a lot of consternation throughout the Democrat base when one of theirs actually chooses to do the right thing.

By the way, just because a call is from, or to, someone in the US has nothing to do with whether or not they are an American.

Wire Taps

Personally I am against wire taps without court oversight; on Americans within the US.

I also am leery of the Imperial Federal Government being granted powers in general and in spying on Americans in specific.

That said, I agree that telecoms that are used by the IFG should not be able to be sued for cooperating; it is good they included that in this Bill.

In the long run, we Americans should really work harder to limit the powers of the IFG instead of expanding them. I don't see that happening, so in the long run our rights will be slowly chipped away. God help us.
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