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Tuesday, May 06, 2008
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gang Injustice
by Debra J. Saunders
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On Friday, California Attorney General Jerry Brown's office announced that it found insufficient evidence to file criminal charges in what has become known as "the De Anza rape case." The story began when a very intoxicated 17-year-old girl allegedly was gang-raped at a March 2007 party at the home of a De Anza College baseball player. Brown's review supports last year's decision by Santa Clara County District Attorney Dolores Carr not to prosecute any of the nine males present in the room.

Politically, Carr's refusal to press charges has not been popular. Lauren Breayans, Lauren Chief Elk and April Grolle -- three soccer players who say they saw the girl being sexually assaulted and brought her to the hospital -- issued a statement voicing their disappointment "in the entire criminal justice system. The message seems to be, if you get an underage girl drunk enough, you can get away with rape."

These three young ladies have shown themselves to be righteous, fearless and strong. They went to a party where they heard that a girl was in a bedroom with eight to 10 men, according to a civil lawsuit filed by victim Jane Doe. They peeked through a black sheet covering a window to the room's French doors and saw a young girl being used in the most despicable way. They determined to put a stop to it.

Sadly, in a way the soccer players may not have meant, they are right. Teenagers do need to be very wary about what others can do to them when they drink. It may not seem fair in this case, but the state cannot press charges if it lacks sufficient proof and even the victim does not remember what happened.

As Chief Assistant Attorney General Dane Gillette wrote, after the state interviewed more than 20 witnesses and devoted more than 1,000 hours reviewing the evidence, investigators found, "The extreme level of alcohol consumption appears to have clouded the memories of many people at the party. Jane Doe (the victim) has no memory of anything that happened at the party beyond her initial arrival."

"If she can't remember anything that happened, that's pretty strong evidence that she passed out drunk," noted attorney Jim Hammer, a former prosecutor who represents the three soccer players. Hammer contends that Carr should have pressed charges against a man who all three women say tried to keep them from rescuing Doe -- and then pressured him to testify against those who assaulted Jane Doe.

Easier said than done. Jane Doe's attorney, Barbara Spector, released a statement that noted, "We remain convinced that how these men acted is wrong, morally and legally. Our client is committed to pursuing her civil remedies, in large part to send a needed message that behavior such as these young men displayed is completely unacceptable and will not be tolerated."

"I'm looking forward to the civil suit," soccer player April Grolle told me, after she recounted seeing Jane Doe stripped from the waist down, with "vomit all over her face -- turns out it wasn't her own vomit."

Said Grolle, "No girl would ever have consented to that." I have to wonder if it is in Jane Doe's interest to go to trial in a civil case. This is unquestionable: It doesn't matter how much a 17-year-old drinks, she does not deserve to be raped -- and it is rape if the teenager is comatose.

But it is questionable whether Jane Doe will get the vindication she seeks by taking this case to court -- especially when prosecutors say they have none of the incriminating video evidence mentioned in Doe's civil suit.

"The issue isn't whether it's acceptable conduct, the issue is whether it's a crime," argued attorney John Cahners, who represents Steve Rebagliati, whose parents own the home where the party took place.

And if it is a crime, is it the same as premeditated rape? It may well be that civil courts are better suited to redress what happened at that March 2007 party.

According to Grolle and another source, the vomit on Jane Doe was not hers. Is it in society's interest to prosecute kids who are months older than Jane Doe for doing things in an alcohol-fueled atmosphere that they never would have done sober or alone? I think there's reasonable doubt.

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Bad comparison
Former_Rep_Never_a_Dem: "I do think "Jane Doe" bears at least as much responsibility as the accused in this case. Look at it this way. If "Jane" was driving drunk and witnesses claim she was injured in a collision with "John" and his buddies who were also driving drunk, is she then excused for her drunk driving because she was "injured" in the crash?"

Just because someone is drunk (and NOT driving!) does not mean that others are entitled to abuse them.

By employing your rationale, car jackers should not be prosecuted for attacking you when you drive into a bad neighborhood. You willingly drove there, so you know the risk.


goatlockerloungelizard:
Believe it or not, some states do charge both minors with assault of a minor. I can't remember which states it is but I saw an article on it not long ago. I suspect most of them also do as done here in Texas: If one is more than two years older than the other there are charges. Otherwise, it is blow off due to nature.

I'll admit that some cases are definately child molestation or rape but in this world, thanks mainly to television and movies, the children are far more knowledgeable of sex than they were when I was a kid. Surveys show that some kids as young as six engage in sex now. One survey showed that 50% of ten-year-olds were active. We thought it terrible if someone was active when they were sixteen when I was that age.

Earth to mlund...
Are you kidding me? Your assertion: "...two minors having "consensual" sex with one another are doing anything but - they should both be charged and punished under the law." Is about as ridiculous a statement as I've ever heard.

Newsflash - a large percentage of minors, tens of millions, have sex with each other. All the laws in the universe can't trump Mother Nature.

You say "Justice should be blind." Apparently, you believe it should be stupid as well.

One more thing
What the heck does the picture included in this article have to do with this story? Anybody?

CVN65
You say there is no way this girl would willingly be involved with the situation described. Do you know this girl intimately? I know for a fact there ARE girls who like to get drunk and be the object of a gang-bang. And yes some of them act as if it was against their consent after they sober up and realize what they did. Until they do it the next time anyway. Got to protect that reputation you know.

I am not claiming the girl in this case gave her consent. I have no way of knowing if she did or not prior to passing out. I do think "Jane Doe" bears at least as much responsibility as the accused in this case. Look at it this way. If "Jane" was driving drunk and witnesses claim she was injured in a collision with "John" and his buddies who were also driving drunk, is she then excused for her drunk driving because she was "injured" in the crash?

Pitiful . . .
Detestable in every way. Boys will be boys. Women have been liberated. And why should parents infuse their morality on their children with such old fashioned ways as decency, marital fidelity and committment?

Rev. Wright told a half truth: "America's chickens have come home . . . to roost!"

Girls Gone Wild. If you see it, you just might start to believe it.

And if Mom and Dad--of ANY of these kids--did their JOBS, just think what a wonderful world this would be . . . society is made of PEOPLE who don't get the job done much too often.

Painful double standard
From a legal perspective, a minor can't consent to sex, even with another minor. Logically, two minors having "consensual" sex with one another are doing anything but - they should both be charged and punished under the law.

A woman (not a minor) who has sex with a boy (a minor) should be charged with rape to the full extent of the law, blind of gender.

A woman who has sex with a man who is drunk should be charged with rape and punished to the exact same extent that a man would prosecuted for having sex with a drunk woman.

JUSTICE should be blind.

A LOT of young men have been raped in high school and college due to alcohol abuse. It isn't prosecuted or even discussed because it is simply assumed that guys are always consenting to sex. Frankly, while sober most young men aren't too thrilled with the prospect of child support payments or hepatitis. Their rights aren't protected or defended because speaking up is a sure way to get laughed at by any authority figure and labeled a "fagot" by your peer-group.

Think about that for half a minute. Give it a good, long, objective think.

That's screwed up - truly and horrifically screwed up. Allowing it to continue is part of the reason we have such a breakdown of personal responsibility, fatherhood, and an epidemic of STDs. We're losing GENERATIONS because we turn a blind eye to child-on-child abuse and male rape victims.

Either no drunk kid is "asking for it" or they all are. We understand the latter is reprehensible, so when are you going to come to grips with the former?

What goes around, comes around
Someone should get these boys drunk and do "horible" things to THEM!

Of course, since they would have accepted the alcohol, what should be done to them couldn't be considered a crime either.

"Payback's a WITCH!" (Purposely mispelled) X3

Comments:
Mother of 4 writes: "We know that the girl did not give consent because she's underage, because she was drunk, and because she was unconscious."
-------------------------------
me: We know she was 17 and we know she was drunk. We do not know if she was unconscious when things began or not.
--------------------------

Mo4:"Minors are incapable of giving meaningful consent regardless of whether or not they want to."
-----------------------------------------
me: Minors are incapable of giving meaningfol consent but ... Is she a minor there in that state? In any case, the boys were supposed to be the same age, so they weren't capable of consent either.
-----------------------------

Mo$: "Drunk people are not in the proverbial "sound mind" so they can't give meaningful consent."
------------------------------
me: True - and the boys were also drunk.
------------------------------

Mo4: "Unconscious people, obvious, are not capable of giving consent to anything whatsoever."
------------------------------
me: Again, true. But was she conscious when she began to have sex? She can't even tell you that. She could well have been.
------------------------------

Girls I know at seventeen are smart enough to know that they do stupid things when they get drunk. Many get drunk anyway. So do boys. Let's not get into 'boys are responsible but girls aren't' argument. Both are responsible for their actions. It is the argument that causes more girls to get into trouble since they expect to get a free pass if they get caught while the boy gets in trouble. Besides, the boys couldn't have been too bad. Otherwise when the three girls came in to rescue her they would have been in trouble too.



Punks
Sick freaks to sexually RAPE a drunk girl like that. SOB's who in better times, had they been caught and there were strong evidence, might well have been executed.

However, women need to accept that if they go out drinking and such, that this might happen to them. They've been sold a pack of lies by feminist professors, but the truth is that this young lady should have exercised responsibility for herself.

That said, what a sad, tragic case for this young girl. Wouldn't want to be her or her parents right now. Strike another blow for higher education's concern for the kids, insofar as the promotion of sexual promiscuity.

Dual Standards
If the girl is drunk and agrees to sex, she is not responsible. If a boy is drunk and agrees to sex, he is. Double Standard.

If a boy fathers a child, drunk or sober, he is 100% responsible. If a girl conceives a child, drunk or sober, it is the boy's fault. Again, double standard. The only time it is not a 50-50 deal is when the girl is raped.

Both are equally at fault if there is mutual consent, drunk or sober.

I've seen girls who deliberately got drunk because she had "more fun that way." They would then deliberately offer themselves to as many boys as possible. Was she innocent while the boys were guilty of rape? No, she planned it that way while sober. Were the boys guilty of rape because she was drunk? Again, no. If she was passed out without offering sex before sex started then she was raped - but no one knows in this case. The fact that she was unconsious later doesn't mean much if she deliberately asked first. No one, including the girl, knows what happened at this party. The government was right to dismiss charges. Actually, I suspect if the girl had awakened the next morning she would have dressed and left and no one would ever have heard of it.

A drunk boy is no more in control of himself than a drunk girl. A drunk girl is no more innocent than a drunk boy. Both were guilty; both were innocent.

And don't think I was ever in this situation. I can't stand drunk people and don't like to take someone else's used goods. Once things got this far along, I left or was already gone.

I agree
"Teach them they are very bad, not much good comes from them."


My Two Cents
Don't let your kids join frat's and sororities. Teach them they are very bad, not much good comes from them. Been there.

Mother of 4
Unsure about California, but in Georgia the age of consent is 16 and even in states with higher ages of consent (e.g. 18), they make exceptions between people of similar ages--e.g. a 17 year old in this case can't give consent to a 40 year old, but can to another 17 year old.

However, no one can give consent when blacked out due to too much drink.

goatlockerloungelizard
We know that the girl did not give consent because she's underage, because she was drunk, and because she was unconscious.

Minors are incapable of giving meaningful consent regardless of whether or not they want to.

Drunk people are not in the proverbial "sound mind" so they can't give meaningful consent.

Unconscious people, obvious, are not capable of giving consent to anything whatsoever.

Its not rocket science.

While girls should know better than to put themselves in that situation, their bad choices don't mean that guys have the right to use and abuse them.

Yep
Took me like 5 seconds. Baseball players.

Why is it everytime you hear about one of these awful gang-bang cases, it is a bunch of jock-thugs behind it all?

Rape
In most states having sex with someone who is in a state of unconsciousness is rape. Justice would indeed be served. If you have sex with someone who can't consent it is rape and the punishment for rape is jail.

Of course, I wouldn't mind if the girl's father tracked them down one by one and removed parts of their bodies with a dull hunting knife--that works for me too.

Oh...any one want to take bets on how likely the boys in question were jocks?




C'mon, Enterprise
Beam me up, Scottie.

How about some consistency?

You say "A girl that makes a bad decision when intoxicated is just as much at fault as the boy she has sex with. To claim that a boy be held responsible while the girl is called a victim is sexist. " On one hand, then "not only could the girl not give consent..."

How do you know she didn't give consent? She certainly can't testify as such, as she was in an alcohol-induced blackout. She may very well have given consent for all she or anyone else knows. The only sober witnesses arrived on the scene well after the incident was underway.

People are quick to make assumptions based on their own perceptions, that often have little to do with facts.

For once, the government officials got it right. Justice would not be served by these kids going to prison.

The girl did not
Jump on top of 10 passed out guys.

She was raped.

Uncle Max
Your cousins don't happen to have the last name Kennedy by chance, do they?

Wow
Some pretty amazing comments here. Some of them made me a little ill. There is a difference between being sloppy drunk and passed out. A girl that makes a bad decision when intoxicated is just as much at fault as the boy she has sex with. To claim that a boy be held responsible while the girl is called a victim is sexist. In this case, it is rape; not only could the girl not give consent, she could not protect herself in any way. This type of gang-bang is absolutely horrendous; the boys, drunk or not, knew that they were penetrating an unconscious female. There is no chance that this girl would have permitted herself to undergo such treatment if she had her faculties about her. That is enough to say that it was against her will. I would also add that this is a little more than "the school of hard knocks"; this is a crime, a heinous act, not some boyfriend that dumped her after getting what he wanted.

my 2 cents
I have two cousins who were at a party many years ago as in 1976 and there was a drunken girl there and there some guys taking turns with her. I don't know if she was awake or not. She got pregnant and eventually one of my cousins was proved to be the father. The resulting child was a boy, and my cousin has nothing to d with him other than sending the occasional check to the mother. His son is now in turn the father of three young children who have absolutely no clue about what it means to be a responsible person because their father doesn't.

And all because of what my cousin did one night at a party.

Lesson to be learned - as ye sew so shall ye reap.

Whose fault is it?

Does it matter?

rivenburg
If you think that merely taking the most minimal of steps to reduce the chance of a passed-out drunk from dying fulfills the responsibilities of an adult in charge of a group of teens then you're understanding of what it means to be an adult is severely lacking.

No real adult, no person with any awareness of the duties that the mature owe to the immature would host one of these "parties" in the first place.

The kind of toleration of the intolerable that you showed is the direct ancestor to the acceptance of such debauchery as a routine part of being a teen that led to the incident in question.

Akagi
All very true.

Yet it still doesn't excuse the predators who take advantage of the stupid, naive, or foolish from the responsibility for the crimes they commit.

Akagi
Dont expect a father to let the rapests of his daughter live, hows that for tough?

I agree with your stance on the education of young women, your advice is true and important. On the other hand, I used to have MASSIVE parties in my youth, with as many as 50 passed out people to tend to at the nights end. We used to patrol the passed out drunks and keep them on their sides or face down to avoid "kieth moon syndrom" drowning in your own vomit.
Not one of our girls (we were charged with protecting for the evening) were ever raped, we wouldnt think of it let alone allow it or god forbid, participate. Yet we were "wild young men" (and we were). go figure.

We DID however, let the young women "decorate" the passed out males with makeup, fingernail & toenail polish. Fairly harmless.

Mother of Four
"Everyone involved should be held to ALL their responsibilities so that this sort of barbarism does NOT happen again."

Well, as long as you have girls who get drunk out of their minds in close contact with boys who are more interested in some sort of sexual release than thinking about ethics and morals, etc then you are going to have this happen again and again. This is not the first time or the last time this will happen.

I am sure people will say I am blaming the victim and I am--tough. If you are a girl, it is up to you to make sure you don't find yourself in these type of situations--don't pass out at a house full of young boys, don't get drunk in a bar and go wander off into the streets of a major city or even a college town as far as that goes--if you do, don't be suprised if you end up raped or worse. Don't expect predators to treat you well when you might as well have a sign around your neck that says please attack me.




nick38
No. A girl who choses to get drunk is also responsible for her behavior.

Nevertheless, neither a drunk person nor an unconscious person is capable of consent so anyone choosing to have sex with a drunk or unconscious person is committing rape.

IMO, everyone involved should be prosecuted. All the teens, male and female, should be prosecuted for underage drinking. The guys who used an unconscious girl as a blow-up doll should all be prosecuted for rape. The adults who provided the alcohol and the owners of home should be prosecuted for all relevant alcohol charges, corruption of minors charges, reckless endangerment if that can apply to leaving a pack of teens unsupervised with access to dangerous items, and so on.

Everyone involved should be held to ALL their responsibilities so that this sort of barbarism does NOT happen again.

Where are this girls family?
& why dont they have their hands around the throats of the rapists?

AudiR10
You are talking about Natalee Holloway case. Her mother was not in Aruba, but there were a number of adult "chaperones." It is legal to drink on Aruba at 18, so she could legally drink.

She has never been found. The current narrative is she did drugs as well, died of a drug overdoes and her body dumped at sea.

The governor of Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia and a host of others I guess called for Americans to boycott Aruba--well, Aruba is much safer than any of those states, perhaps foreigners should then boycott Alabama until its crime rate is as low as Aruba's.


Unsure about California
But in many states, if you have sex with someone who can't consent--e.g. too drunk to be aware what is going on then it is rape. If you can't say no, then you can't say yes and then it is rape.

However, this case once again demostrates a lesson to young women--if you go to a place with lots of young men and get drunk out of your mind expect bad things to follow. A similar situation like this happened in Florida a number of years ago--a girl went to a frat party, she was a "little sister" of the frat, got drunk out of her mind, she passed out and was not only raped over and over by her frat boy "friends" but they filmed it. And they were prosecuted for rape.


Mother of 4
Mother of 4 is 4x (at least) brighter than you, nick38. I had that same talk several times with both my son and daughter- at the same time. They squirmed and wanted to be anywhere else, but I hit every one of those points, then went over the law I alluded to above.

In addition to Mother of 4's points, I added a few of my own as Father of 2:

o I started in middle school with the talks; the rule I gave them was if you are in doubt, ask yourself; do you look forward to explaining your decision to me afterward?

o If you are present when it is leading to something like the topic, stop it before it goes off the cliff if you can safely, if you can't; leave and get help. You may lose friends; but if you don't, you will regret it forever.

o Peer pressure is done as an excuse about middle school.

o (Said with tongue barely in cheek) Your teacher dad doesn't make the kind of money it takes to get a trust-fund baby class lawyer to get get you off when you're guilty.

o Youth is no excuse to act stupid. Your father was a rifleman on the DMZ n Korea at seventeen; I had to obey the same rules as the twenty year veteran- and did.




New Defense: Perpetratin' while young
This was a political decision, not a legal one. It makes me wonder just whose scion was among the perpetrators. The reasoning for not going forward was specious: there were at minimum three witnesses (the rescuers) to the crime; there had to be physical evidence to the crime including semen and vomit; even if only one man was actually observed in the act of rape all the others standing by were, by their inaction as a felony was commited in their willing presence, accomplices, especially the man (not boy) who attempted to block the rescuers. This is all 'black letter' law, not a judgement call.

As to the 'defense' they were all too intoxicated to understand what they were doing- please, try that 'defense' in ANY other cirmcumstance; the judge will hammer the gavel down cutting off that nonsense before two more words come out! Crimes commited while intoxicated carry the same legal penalty as when sober, slick.

Then there is the plea the rapists (which is precisely what they are) merely exhibited bad judgement because of their 'youth.' News flash: bad judgement is always an element of commiting a crime. This wasn't a single act of poor or immature thinking skills; they illegally purchased alcohol; they illegally provided it to others; they raped an unconscious woman -repeatedly, not just once; they illegally hindered the rescue of that woman.

And just how does that stack up as "youthful indiscretion?" Seems a clear pattern of collusive criminal enterprise; well thought out and carried out- except for the courage of the three women who undertook her rescue - at risk to themselves, I might add. Too bad the political hack prosecutor has less balls than three women.

Audi,
Excellent second point there.

I have had some serious conversations with my 16yo son. After discussing the many reasons its wiser to wait until marriage I brought up the points that, if he does not choose to wait,

#1. Sex makes babies. A man is 100% responsible for any baby he fathers regardless of the circumstances of the conception.

#2. Consent requires an actual, not implied, "Yes, I want to have sex with you."

#3. If the girl changes her mind and says, "No. Stop. I don't want to do this," he MUST stop immediately.

#4. Girls lie. If she changes her mind afterwards she could claim rape even if she did fulfill #1 initially.

#5. If a girl is drunk or high she cannot give consent so she is off-limits.

#6. If he chooses to get drunk he remains completely responsible for anything that he does while drunk.

#7. Choose friends and situations wisely. I reminded him of how his best friend did have alcohol slipped into his soda as a prank, wrecked his car, and lost his driver's license for most of a year until the courts finished proving that the guy had been pranked -- shifting the responsibility to the pranksters.

We also have found it wise to make sure, as my parents did for me, that he knows what alcohol tastes like. His friend didn't and thought that the funny taste was just because it was a different brand of soda.

DH has had similar conversations with him separately.

Wolf! Wolf!
Unfortunately, false accusations of rape are very common as are false claims of hate crimes. What do we do to the people who make these false accusations? Often the answer is "nothing." Were the members of Duke's Gang of 88 sent for "sensitivity training" for creating a hostile environment for men guilty of attending college while white? One obvious consequence of false accusations is it sometimes sets the stage for doubt in valid cases. There is a conspiracy of silence on campuses surrounding the false allegations. When we wonder, "is she partially guilty?" the damage is done. For true victims, this is to be victimized again. If this is the case for Jane Doe, unjustified doubt has its roots in truth avoidance.

Where were Janes parents?
I have had this argument with my sister concerning the young girl who disappeared on her senior trip in the Islands, whose mother was along with her but who was drinking with strangers with Mommys acquiescence (as apparently she was never taught any better) and has never been found.

All of us have fallen into difficulties due to our determination to prove that our parents are ignorant dinosaurs. However, those of us who were well taught can generally figure out where we went wrong afterwards and our parents will make sure we do in case there is anything we miss.

A mother who does not teach her daughter (1) that underage drinking is a crime and (2) that boys will be boys is an accomplice to rape and at the least should be ashamed and repent of her stupidity. As has been pointed out by two generations of feminists, the equality we claim has nothing to do with such things as public drunkenness, sleeping overnight in public parks, hitch-hiking, and going off from bars with men of any age about whom we know nothing.

Yes, rape is a crime, and if there is evidence it should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But sometimes the sad fact of the matter is that rape is the tuition paid in the school of hard knocks by someone who cannot or will not learn any other way. Jane is lucky to be alive, and if there is any justice in the world her mother will do her best to insure she stays that way.

Oh, and as the mother of sons, it would be a nice idea if THEIR mothers would have taught them that no matter how the girl behaves, a decent young man will leave her alone. (Just because someone leaves the keys in her car, that does not give him permission to steal that car, does it?)

Of Course It Is!
"Is it in society's interest to prosecute kids who are months older than Jane Doe for doing things in an alcohol-fueled atmosphere that they never would have done sober or alone? I think there's reasonable doubt."

Of course it is!

Its long past time society stops permitting drunkenness to be a free pass on the consequences of everything from simple irresponsibility to abominable and outright criminal behavior.

If you CHOOSE to get drunk you should be held 100% responsible for everything you do while drunk.

The only time a drunk person should get a pass is if they were tricked into drinking alcohol disguised as an innocuous soft drink.

Women as victims, men responsible
One of these days in the world where women are supposed to be equal in all things and ability as men, these same women will be accorded the same responsiblities as men. Rape is an abhorant crime. But so is any type of assault.

Lets examine this crime. A 17 year old girl at a party where alcohol is being served. Did anyone force her to drink? Unlikely. Did anyone force her to drink to excess. Again unlikely. A 17 year old "boy" (usually termed a man) who drinks to excess is usually held responsible for doing so. Even if he cannot "remember" any actions taken after the binge. As are these young "rapists" of this girl. It matters not that apparently many of these young men had also drank to excess. THEY are responsible as "men" for all their actions regardless if done while drunk or otherwise impaired.
So where is the equality of the sexes in this?

Are women equal today, or are they to be infantialized and held not responsible for their actions as are men?

There is enough fault to go around with the above situation, but if one person is to be held responsible for their actions regardless of impairment by drink, so should ALL parties to the incident.

There you go again, Debra...
Trying to inject common sense into a social/political issue of the day. Will you never learn?

Of course you're right. The judicial system is ill equipped to handle stupid teenagers doing what stupid teenagers have done since time immemorial. As a former stupid teenager myself (but only until about age 30), and Father to stupid teenagers - I should know.

I have no doubt those unable to think beyond black-and-white literal interpretations of the law will soon explain how imperative it is that these rapists need to be sent to prison for thirty years. But they are wrong.

Sometimes, life isn't all black-and-white. Sometimes, common sense must be given its due.
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