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Sunday, April 20, 2008
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Soak the Very, Very, Very Rich
by Debra J. Saunders
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Maybe if ABC had made the 26th Democratic presidential debate this election season drag on for another couple of hours (on top of the two endless hours), someone would have gotten around to answering this question: When did households earning $200,000 and change become middle class?

Moderator George Stephanopoulos asked both Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama if they would make "an absolute, read-my-lips pledge" that, if elected, there will be "no tax increases of any kind for anyone earning under $200,000 a year." Clinton pledged not to raise "a single tax on middle-class Americans, people making less than $250,000 a year." Obama answered he would make a similar pledge: "It depends on how you calculate it (the income level), but it would be between ($200,000) and $250,000."

Last weekend, the big campaign flap concerned whether Obama's remarks about "bitter" small-town Pennsylvanians were "elitist." Wednesday, when the candidates described $200,000-a-year earners as middle class, no one batted an eye.

Hello. I'm a Republican, and I think a family that earns more than $200,000 is rich. In the world of Democrats Clinton, Obama and Stephanopoulos, however, you have to be among the top 3 percent of wage earners to qualify for that club.

Some stats: In 2006, the median annual household income in America was $48,201. The median income for two-earner families was $78,994.

When I asked Gerald Prante of the nonpartisan Tax Foundation if he thought $200,000 were middle-class income, he noted, "It isn't even middle income in Manhattan," where Prante said some 14.2 percent of households make more than $200,000. The median income in a household headed by someone with a master's degree is about $88,000. Ergo, it would take the income of 2 1/2 master's-degree-headed households or more than four median households for one family to transcend middle-class status chez Obama and at casa Clinton.

To the apparent glee of Clinton, ABC anchorman Charlie Gibson assailed Obama for his proposal to raise the cap on Social Security payroll taxes beyond $97,500 a year. (Actually, the cap is now $102,000.)

"But that's a tax on people under $250,000," said Gibson. Like that's a bad thing in the formerly soak-the-rich Democratic Party.

Obama replied that he would "look at potentially exempting those who are in between." Huh?

Robert Bixby of the fiscal watchdog group The Concord Coalition figured that Obama is proposing a "donut hole" -- wherein only earnings below $100,000 or above $250,000 would be taxed. And: "Campaign rhetoric and sensible budgeting are incompatible creatures."

Also nonsensical is Clinton's call for a special commission to deal with the pending Social Security and Medicare crises -- to wit, $53 trillion in unfunded retirement and medical promises, which amount to $175,000 for every American. A commission would be a grand idea, if Clinton had not already kneecapped it with a no-new-taxes-except-on-the-very-very-rich pledge.

Republican John McCain's campaign rhetoric also has strayed from his fiscally conservative record, but today, I focus on the Democrats. Their soak-the-rich approach has always been a problem, because overtaxing productive people can hurt the job market. So what do Democrats do? Pander more.

Both Clinton and Obama are promising big new programs, middle-class tax cuts and an end to deficit spending -- paid for by raising a tax of "the highest volatility," as Prante put it. Which means that the minute the economy is in trouble, revenue will dry up. This is a formula for fiscal pain.

With a realistic view of affluence, there are not enough rich people to close the federal deficit or the pending entitlement crisis -- even if a Democrat actually ends the war in Iraq. When Democrats redefine rich to cover only the really, really rich, they make their unrealistic promises all that much more unattainable.

Clinton and Obama keep telling Americans that they have these wonderful plans to create vital programs that will make this country a greater, better place to live. Too bad their programs are never so important that Americans should have to pay for them. They are not even so important that well-heeled hi-def flat-screen TV Democrats should have to pick up part of the tab.

Call it the new American idealism. Ask not what you can do for your country. Make someone else pay for it.

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Same old, same old
song and dance from the democrats. What else is new? Their programs require a leap of faith just like any other religion.

'Do ya think ya can tell, Heaven from Hellll, blue skies from pain, hot ashes from trees, '

Their followers must have faith in their ability to change the world for the better and eliminate injustice through legislation. It is a fool's errand but, dovetails nicely with rejection of God and a naive belief in our own powers to order the world we live in.

The true leap of faith is the one required to believe that individuals exercising economic freedom and personal freedom will produce far more for everyone than any government ever could. This is the leap of faith liberals just cannot make. That things may actually work out as they should without their personal intervention.

We are about to show God just how advanced we are. We are going to save the planet from continuing its natural warming trend through our combined power. Reminds me a lot of the story of Babel. I wonder just how poor people are willing to become to achieve this ephemeral feat.

Taxation - direct & indirect
--
There are all sorts of ways to screw the American people, and the bipartisan Boot-On-Your-Neck Party (Democrat and Republican franchises alike) use every one of 'em.

Noise about direct taxes on "income" (however you define it; lawfully or - as the IRS does - unlawfully) yields no information whatsoever about how deeply the government gouge is going to rip into America's guts.

Or who is going to suffer the agony.

Think bullfighting, the way it's done in las corridas down Mexico way.

The direct taxes levied on your wages or salary are the gaudy, waving, distracting red cape. They get your attention, but they're not what the government is counting upon to spill your blood all over the arena.

The sword behind the cloth, poised to be plunged past your collarbone and down into your chest, ripping out your lungs and your heart, are the hidden taxes "built into" everything you buy, from clothing to gasoline to the 81-milligram aspirin tablet you take each day to reduce your risk of coronary occlusion.

Excise taxes on your phone service and at the fuel pump. Real estate taxes on the businesses in your community. The payroll taxes your doctor has to collect from his employees for the government, account for, and send in to the IRS every month.

Who the hell d'you think actually pays for all this?

The phone company? Your local hardware store? Your doctor?

How stupid do you have to be?

Every God-damned dime of that taxation *HAS* to be passed along to the consumers of those goods and those services.

That's *YOU*, no matter what your 1040 form tabulates as your annual "income."

You're paying all of it.

So focusing on the "income" tax is idiocy.

It's what the politicians want you to do.

So you don't see the blade even when it slides into your body and kills you.

--

A question
I would love to see Obama publicly confronted with a question. How much should Oprah be taxed at an income of $260,000,000/yr.?

Ask Hillary about the debt owed by Babs Streisand.

The list of uberrich who support these commies is endles. Ask each of these candidates to answer the questions name by name. No one will put the candidates on the hot seat.

200,000 is not a lot of money
When you look at a two income household with a couple of kids in a major metropolitan area. First they have federal taxes which include say an effective tax rate of 25% after deductions, then they have state taxes of say 7 % after deductions, then there are real estate taxes anywhere from 2 to 6 % of their income, then they may have local income or property taxes say another 2 %. So say 38% total taxes not including restaurant taxes, gas taxes, sales taxes, sin taxes that's 76,000 dollars (and those numbers are probably low as some people are paying 5-digit real estate taxes on modest homes. So they now have 124,000 dollars. Well they are probably spending 25,000 dollars a year on daycare or may be forced into private school given the state of public schools. So now they have 99,000 dollars. Then there are commuting costs at 40 cents a mile and husband and wife commuting a combined 120 miles a day that's 12480 dollars a year. So now they have 86,500. Well they have no pension plan and know social security won't be there so they save 10% a year for their old age. Now they have 66,500. They also believe they are responsible for their children's college education so they save another 5% for that. Now they have 56,500. They still need a place to live so they buy an older home in a "safe neighborhood" somewhat near their jobs for 450,000 dollars. Their monthly mortgage comes to 33,600 dollars a year. Now they have 22,900. And they haven't paid for life insurance, uncovered medical expenses, clothes, utilities, food, activities for their kids, Christmas/Birthday gifts etc. These people are not rich. And if they lived in an actual city say Boston, Manhattan, Chicago, San Francisco they'd have even less "disposable" income.

One must remember one thing about the
above rhetoric from the Commie(D)s; it is CAMPAIGN rhetoric and it means NOTHING. During the 2006 campaign the Commie(D)s said they would only raise taxes on the "rich" and when the actual proposals were made the rich turned out to be anyone making more than 60,000 a year.

And contrary to what all of those so-called experts are saying about incomes, it is not unusual for a two-wage earner family to be making 200K per year if both people are half-way ambitous. One fellow spoke of people needed a "masters" to make in the 80s. LOL, auto mechanics make in the 80s now without a degree.

What one has to do is make sure one is in a field that pays a decent salary. An individual with a masters in sociology working as a social worker will make next to nothing. An individual with a six year degree in the pharmaceutical area will get a signing bonus and start at over a 100K a year. Of course getting a degree in that area requires a LOT more work while in school.


The Constitution and Bill of Rights.....
do not give us rights. Rights are given to us by our creator as acknowledged in the preamble.

The Constitution as amended limits the power of government to interfere with the rights of the people. But we have allowed the government incrementally to infringe on our rights. The Dims are marching in lock step to pile on more incremental infringement.

Why does the federal government tax us to send dollars to other countries, not as loans, but as gifts?

Why does the federal government tax us to send money back to the states? Or to build bridges to nowhere? Or to subsidize able bodied and able minded adults who will not work?

The one thing the government can and should do is protect the American people from foreign aggression, including Islamic terrorism.

When will America tell the Dims to take a hike?

It is easy for a couple to make 200k
2 mid-level federal employees
2 school principals
2 large city police officers with overtime
1 HR manager and a dept manager at a corporation
2 young attorneys at a large firm
1 nurse-midwife and a nurse-anesthitist
2 programmers
2 chemists
2 engineers
2 longshoremen
a mom and pop trade shop of some kind plumbing etc.
a school teacher and a delivery driver in a larger city

there are metro areas that on 80k a year you would not be living what most people consider a middle-class life


Tax-the-rich schemes don't work ...
... because the rich use their influence to get their activities special treatment by the tax code.

LuLu, you completely failed ..
to illustrate your point. You make so many assumptions that one could blow holes in nearly every of them. I would have settled for this:
"$200,000 does not make one rich. They may be well-off, just not necessarily rich."

Trying to make the point that $200k is not a lot of money won't fly with the vast majority of people who live on less than $50k-$70k.

Good article Thanks
I agree with you on this one. Nice writing. I would like to hear someones comments on Health Care for America by Garnishing wages sometime. That is Hillaries answer to health care. It is scary. We have Medicare now and my daughter who is handicapped has to fight for everything she needs all of the time, and even the most necessary items she needs often are withheld from her, so I have to pay for it myself. And often when she is in the hospital they tell us she must go somewhere else because she is costing them too much. I can't even imagine, what life would be like with Hillary in charge of health care, it is too scary to imagine.

As far as taxes go
That are illegal as SJ Doc has pointed out truthfully, then why pay them?

Where did the true rebellious against government evil go.

The Founders rebelled against 1 or 2 percent taxes, and we debate 20 to 30 percent out of the working mans pay.

"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." Bertrand de Jouvenal
Baaaaaa

What?
I am sorry to hear your complaints about medicare. I have had Humana Medicare Plus for ten years without any problem, save one. I had to change docs, at first, because the government doesn't really pay. I saw a Doc saying she felt as if she was giving a $20.00 bill to each Medicare patient. Maybe you remember that Hillary bankrupted all the vacine cos by underpaying. Congress requires ER's to take everyone and then reimburses about 20%.
I think the government has too much money and it is not careful spending it. When you start talking about soaking the rich you are talking about capital. People who have big chunks of money (capital) do lots of worthwhile and useful things with it. We would all be poorer if that capital were dribbled out in government spending, instead. Think who you go to to raise money for a favorite cause.

I think you miss the point
FROG writes: Monday, April, 21, 2008 9:33 AM

Trying to make the point that $200k is not a lot of money won't fly with the vast majority of people who live on less than $50k-$70k.

My point is that 200k may sound like a lot of money, but for a couple living in an expensive area trying to provide their family with a "middle class" lifestyle 200k does not allow for a lot of extras if they are taking responsibility for their children's education and their own retirement. Honestly, someone making 50-70k in a small town or rural area is living much better than the hypothetical couple. The 70k couple is paying a lot less in taxes and the cost of living e.g. housing, commute, childcare is quite a bit lower.

Everybody's missing the point...........
the people they are after are US. It doesn't matter what you make, it's how you live your life that they have a problem with.

Celebrities, professional athletes, and politicians live, with rare exception, a completely different life than you and I.

We get up, every morning, slog through traffic, and go to work. If we work hard, every single day, and get a few breaks, we might even become wealthy, but it's not becuase of some flashy talent we have, it's all sweat.

They want to raise the top margin to squeeze our asset base, to drive us down to the next lower margin. Once they do that, they'll raise that level.

We are ALL the unwashed masses, as far as Washington is concerned. A guy with and MBA, big salary, expense account, and company car, is exactly like a ditch digger to them.

What they FAIL to understand, is that the American worker is also the engine that drives everything, the goose that laid the golden egg, and what they are trying to do is to kill the goose.

Foolishness
A little history lesson for those who think soaking the rich is the way to go:

Please remember the luxury tax on yachts. The ultra rich were not harmed. They simply stopped buying yachts. Perhaps they bought another sports car, or a couple of race horses instead. The only ones who suffered were those in the yacht making industry. Companies folded and people lost their jobs. Now unless you think the average frame builder or marine pump installer is rich, then you have to face the fact that such taxes always screw everyone down the food chain.

They all failed Economics 101
The only way to have economic security is very simple......Quit Borrowing to Spend! Its just ridiculous to think America can continue down this road and that any one group will be able to pay the tab!!! Gee Whiz they are soooo stupid and so are the American people that believe their BS!! WE MUST CUT THE BUDGET AND ONLY SPEND WHAT WE HAVE!!!! Lets start with Foreign Aide, Federal Employee Salary/Benefits,Special Programs for Illegal Aliens and How about The Big One Pork Barrel Projects. I mean this list is never ending!! But NO They always want to start their cutting on things that are important to All Americans such as Infrastructure, Border Security, Medicare,and Social Security etc... God Forbid if they really got serious about Cutting the Real Fat off of Gov't!! Boy they would really tick off their cronnies!!!!!

LuLu I'm with you
My wife and I live in Chicago and together are lucky enough to earn 230K a year combined. We have two kids in daycare, and thats 3K a month. With a 2.5K a month mortgage, plus we get the privaledge of paying some of the highest real estate taxes and sales taxes in the entire country.

Don't get my wrong, I'm blessed. I do in fact own a plasma TV(as the author seems to imply is a status of my richness). By gods grace, my children are healthy and quite a handful(in the best sense), but I would never describe us as financially rich.

Good lord, I agree with Hillary and Barack on this one.

LuLu & WincyCityEagle ...
Back in the late 80's early 90's, I lived in Riverside, California and commuted to Orange County (70 miles one way) to my job at Hughes Aricraft Co. A job that paid $14.25/hr. With OT, I pushed my income to about $35k/yr.

I carpooled with a guy making the same amount, though his wife was a payroll manager making $50k/yr. He couldn't understand how we mangaged financially. My wife stayed at home to raise our 2 children.

During our carpool conversations, I constanly heard him talking about going out for dinners or, on a whim, flying to San Fracisco for the weekend or some other such vacation. I told him, we don't dine out except once or twice a month, and when we do take a vacation, we go camping.

Even as the youngest of 13 children growing up and wearing not only my brother's hand-me-downs, but my sisters as well, I've never thought of myself as poor. I've never had the boat, the jet ski, the vacation home, or European vacations (the trip my wife and I took to Israel last summer was paid for by my gracious and generous mother-in-law). Still, I've had a blessed and happy life.

Like the Apostle Paul, "I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want." Pilippians 4:12. It's about a mindset and being thankful for what you have and not envious of someone else's lot.

income != wealth
Here is the canard that the politicians always try to pass:

INCOME DOES NOT EQUAL WEALTH

Bill Gates could generate NO income and still be wealthy.

Will he be taxed??

He's still wealthy!

If someone wins the lottery for 250K, is he now rich??

Isn't it ironic that in this example, Bill Gates would be the "poor" guy and the lottery guy the "rich".

Perceptions
The real reason the Dems target "the rich" is that the definition of that term is relative. Virtually no one sees themselves as being "weathy", regardless of income level, so when people hear "the rich" being excoriated something like 99% of them interpret that to mean "someone else with more money than I have". This makes for the perfect political target, an almost nonexistent group that is envied by practically the entire population.

Good point Moses
That's why I favor abolishing all federal taxes and replacing them with an national sales tax of 10%. Joe spends 10 times more than Jeff, Joe pays 10 times as much taxes.

John Kerry spends 1,000 times more than Jeff, John Kerry pays 1,000 times more taxes.

The "Fair Tax" is on the right track - it just doesn't go far enough. It makes more sense to me to tax spending than on whether someone's wealth is in the form of "income" or "capital."

Apparent Income Misleading
I believe what LuLu tried to say, and the point Deborah Saunders misses, is that she neglects to distinguish gross income from DISPOSABLE INCOME, and NET WORTH; a relevant point that LuLu alludes to. The following example illustrate this now too common phenomenon.

Mr. “Jones”, bought an expensive home in an EXPENSIVE city, with High real estate taxes, at the top of the housing boom, with a variable rate mortgage, & min down payment, where such homes sold for well over a mill, and are now “up side down”. Their 3 kids are forced to attend private schools as public schools in this city are DANGEROUS. They bought 2 gas guzzler cars on credit, when gas was relatively cheap. Mr. Jones makes 270K. Is he rich?. Hardly. He’s struggling, deeply in debt and my lose his home. He has relatively high gross income, ZERO DISPOSABLE and NEGATIVE NET WORTH: a common story where I live. IF Mr. Jones could move where schools are safe, homes are cheap, and telecommute, (he cant): and IF he weren’t “up side down” in mortgage and car payments, he could sell his home and gas guzzlers, (he cant): then perhaps he’d be considered “well off”. Yes, Mr. Jones made poor financial decisions; but as to being rich; I think not. But consider someone soon to retire, with income plummeting from Mid 6 figures to upper 5 figures. Due to wise planning, this soon to be modest income / smart investor will have a NET worth in the mid 7 figures. So who is truly "rich"? As the poster "moses" points out; generalizations based only on apparent income are often misleadin

xxx
xxx

Ragnar
On the other hand, there are those that have that kind of income and have made wise financial decisions. They live below their means and save for the future. Some of these people have massive student loans and, in my case, are paying yearly to buy the business that they are in. I would say that disposable income is definitely the key to "feeling" wealthy and that net worth is the key to actually "being" wealthy.

Is it time for Atlas to shrug?
It seems to me, the super rich and corporations should be the last taxation target. After all, in most cases, these individuals and organization have demonstrated a talent for creating capital that no taxing authority can match ... even remotely. Our country needs wealth; investors; innovators; entrepreneurs; job creators. Why continue to pander to moochers and moral busybodies?

"Rich" and "Poor" Are Always Relative
It's time to wake up now Debra. I don't know where you've been for the last 25 years, but these same people routinely define "rich" and "poor" to fit their needs, and that by default redefines the middle class as well.

When they want to hand out goodies to buy votes, people who make $80K/year qualify as "poor"; when they want to raise taxes on the "rich", "rich" gets defined as anything over $50K/year, because even dumb-a$$ liberals like Barakk and Hillary understand that you can't squeeze enough money out of rich people like them to pay for everything. It's all semantics and what is "true" today will be "inoperative" tomorrow.

But one thing holds true. The salary for people serving in Congress is still more than four times the median family income in this country. And most of the people there were rich before they ever even got there. Funny how the one group that never pays its share is the one claiming no one else pays enough.


CVN65 & GK
CVN - Re: Your statement:
"I would say that disposable income is definitely the key to "feeling" wealthy and that net worth is the key to actually "being" wealthy."

Excellent point

GK: Yes. It's time for Atlas to Shrug

The question
should NOT be: is someone rich who makes $200k/yr? There are all kinds of scenarios where different households could make $200k/yr and yet, none of them have the same "cushy" feeling about their financial situation. There are households who make $200k/yr who do not struggle to make ends meet and there are some who do. Just like their are people making $50k/yr who seem to be making it just fine while others struggle. Every household's situation is different. The fact of the matter is $200k/yr does not go as far today as it did but neither does $50k/yr. And $200k/yr is a great deal more than $50k/yr if you look ONLY at the things that are required for a person to live (items like food, clothing, shelter and transportation). As a person who makes significantly less than $200k/yr, I have little sympathy for anyone making that much and complaining about the price of their trip to the Bahamas or how much it cost to fill up their jet skis. Don't get me wrong, I am glad they have the right to those luxuries; I support being able to have more luxuries by taking away from government instead of hard-working people. However, we are all having to tighten our belts right now. And by the sound of this article, it will get much worse if Clinton or Obama are elected.

The real question should be: is it right for government to take from one group to give to another? And if it is right, why stop at 25%, 30% or even 75% since the obvious outcome of such a system is equality between those who have less and those who have more? After all, liberals are not called "liberals" because of their own giving, they are liberal with other people's money.

Lets see
we are all working almost half the year now, for the government. The problem isn't taxing the rich, its taxes period.

McCain says, cut taxes and increase spending by the government? His economic plan, is insane, as is us working half the year for the government.

It's time to throw all these bums out of office. Both sides of the isle need to go.

Soak the very very >>>Rich..............
Soak them, bleed them and disect them. I feel so bad for anyone that claims they cannot make it on $250K or better a year if they have to pay into Social Security. I mean they really do not blink an eye when they cut a job so they get more money. Or sell a company overseas so they get more money. Why should it matter then. Because it is law, or it should be.
You work here, make your wages here, then pay your taxes here. No cut off line.
You pay just like the rest of us. You reap just like the rest of us. So many of you `Wealthy young, do not respect the fact that without the client, you have no sales. If we go down, you go down also.
Keep lying to yourselves, and believe that its better on the other side of the fence.

The answer is the fairtax folks
Check it out at http://www.fairtax.org.

Peace,

YK

The bottom line is
it all class warfare and the dems have been practicing it for decades.
There aren't enough super rich people to pay for the foolishness proposed by these commies.
Their purchasing of votes with our money has to be stopped..period.

Mccain has been making himself very unpopular on the hill for decades by fighting these pork barrel earmarks and I believe will get this practice stopped cold.

These congresscritters don't have the stones to speak on their pet projects on the floor, so they sneak them into bills by dead of night, the promise by Mccain to "make then famous" will stop it because like cockroaches they cannot stand the light.

Clinton cannot even run her own campaign finances, yet claims to have all the answers for the economy. I want to hear how she'd run a household in NJ with a 150K a year income and 3 kids in college and another almost ready to go as my son has to do. It ain't easy and there are plenty of folks well below that figure who will be devastated by either of these fools if the people are stupid enough to elect them.

Get the bottom dwellers off the public teat, let corporations succeed or fail in the market place and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

Ragnar....
I agree! It is time for Atlas to shrug.

Unfortunately, too many people who don't deem themselves 'rich' don't seem to understand how much of the burden they also carry. Not only income taxes being a problem, but the hidden taxes and compliance costs in everything they purchase. (The opportunity costs of the amount we spend on our National Debt is a burden that many don't hear about.)
FairTax anyone? I'm one of a pair of founders of our own local group.
Start your own local group and get involved, folks. We MIGHT be able to save ourselves.
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