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Saturday, August 11, 2007
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Paralyzing Fog of Uncertainty on Climate
by Debra J. Saunders
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


Newsweek's global-warming cover story purports to reveal the "well-coordinated, well-funded campaign by contrarian scientists, free-market think tanks and industry," which for the last two decades "has created a paralyzing fog of doubt around climate change." It's the same story run repeatedly in mainstream media: The overwhelming majority of scientists believe the debate on global warming is over -- but if there are any dissenting scientists left, they've been bought.

Here's the rub: If dissent is so rare, why do global-warming conformists feel the strong need to argue that minority views should be dismissed as nutty or venal? Why not posit that there is such a thing as honest disagreement on the science?

As for the overwhelming majority of scientists believing that man is behind global warming, former NASA scientist Roy Spencer, now at the University of Alabama, told me, "It's like an urban legend. There has never been any kind of vote on this issue." He referred me to a 2003 survey in which two German environmental scientists asked more than 530 climate scientists from 27 countries if they thought humans caused climate change: 56 percent answered yes, 30 percent said no.

What really frosts me about the Newsweek story is that it concentrates on industry funding for skeptics while ignoring the money that pours into pro-global-warming coffers. That focus ignores where the big grant money goes -- to pay for crisis-mongering research. Or as Reid Bryson, the father of scientific climatology, told the Capital Times in Madison, Wis., "If you want to be an eminent scientist, you have to have a lot of grad students and a lot of grants. You can't get grants unless you say, 'Oh, global warming, yes, yes, carbon dioxide.'"

That's not to say that industry does not liberally fund political efforts. Sierra Club Executive Director Carl Pope told me, "If you look at the cumulative public-relations weight of those who don't want action on climate change, such as the think tanks and trade associations, it vastly dwarfs what has been spent on the side of those who want action."

Pope cited American automakers' fight against tougher fuel-efficiency standards. Also, the campaign to defeat Prop. 87, the 2006 California ballot measure to tax oil production in order to fund alternative fuel development, outspent Prop. 87 proponents by two to one.

Newsweek leads with the revelation that a conservative think tank that had been funded by ExxonMobil offered scientists "$10,000 to write articles under cutting" a U.N. International Panel on Climate Change report that there is a 90 percent chance global warming is due to the burning of fossil fuels.

Ooooh, $10,000. After the billions that have gone into pro-global-warming research, that's (pardon the pun) rich.

What critics call a $10,000 "bounty" could be seen in the research community as the equivalent of a 25-cent tip. As Steven Hayward, fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, explained, his think tank was "asking very busy and prominent people to wade through as much as 5,000 pages of material and write original papers on it, and people think they're going to do that for free?"

Spencer told me he had been writing on global warming for years before he started writing for TCS Daily, which received ExxonMobil money, three years ago. He said TCS Daily now provides some 5 percent of his income. And: "All I was doing was being paid for writing things I believed in anyway."

Global warming guru James Hansen, a NASA scientist, received $250,000 from a foundation run by Teresa Heinz Kerry. Hansen endorsed John Kerry for president in 2004. But I wouldn't dream of suggesting Hansen was bought.

The science doesn't follow the money, the money follows the scientist. If you're a researcher on either side of the issue, eventually you'll get money from that side -- or be unemployed.

I guess all skeptics are supposed to work for free.

True believers appear to be afraid of a fair fight. In March, when the audience was polled before a New York "Intelligence Squared U.S." debate, 30 percent agreed with the motion that global warming is not a crisis, 57 percent disagreed. After the debate, 46 percent agreed with the motion, while 42 per cent disagreed.

After all the Newsweek-like stories announcing the debate is over, it took one debate to flip the audience. No wonder they want to muzzle dissent.

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Saunders Good article and here..
If readers really want to know the truth about Global Warming..which is it ain't happening..they will watch these videos. The second I list debunks Al Gores Hockey stick theory or hypothesis as it is. This is the truth and the globalists just want you to buy what they say so they can increase government, generate new taxes (at our expense) and scare people to help give away rights so that the elites can continue to profit while instituting the NAU, which is brought in after the passage of the SPP. If your are a true American who believes the gov is just trying to scare us further and take away more rights..you will watch these 2 videos of truth. If you the usualy..I don't care let the gov bang us all and take more rights while getting richer...you wont watch these. Truth for America or lies for prosperity for the elites. What will you choose?

Oops..Forgot the links.
I was so thinking about what I wrote I forgot the links. Here they are. The secons is better but the first is a good predecessor.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/archives/global_warming/index.htm The Great Global Warming Swindle

http://www.prisonplanet.com/archives/global_warming/index.htm Global Warming : Doomsday called off.

Keep in mind that one of these videos is the one that made that scientist mad that threatend to ruin that other one if he created another video. Its been in the news.

Global Warming Hoax
As PT Barnum said, " There is a sucker born every minute", I think that their minute is about up.

Newsweek
Newsweek was the magazine that led the global cooling movement in the 1970s - it had a big cover story on the subject.

And you couldn't argue with global cooling and the new ice age, because the science was settled.

Right?

1:1 correlation
Sentido,

You are correct in that the ice cores do show a CO2:temperature correlation. Actually the ice cores show more of a logarithmic and, this is key, TRAILING relationship.
Taylor-2003,Fischer-1999 and Caillon 2003 all did extensive studies of the Vostok ice cores. Fisher states "The time lag of the rise of CO2concenttrations with respect to temperature change is on the order of 400 to 1,000 years."

The point of the story is the demonization of those who dare oppose warming "consensus", whatever that is, by attempting to financially tie skeptics to industry. Thus somehow invalidating their research.
This ignores the billion dollar business of warming alarmism funded by ultraleft foundations such as Pew, Heinz, Ford and others who, through the camouflage of the global warming "crisis" push a extremely "progressive" political agenda.

As far as "finished" that is laughable. Anyone researching climate history further back than 1970 can see that we have had many, many temperature swings over earth's history. Since 600 B.C. we have had six major climate shifts.

sentido
"...CO2 reflects sunlight. If you have too much CO2 in the atmosphere, excessive solar radiation will be retained..."

I'm just curious, if CO2 reflects sunlight, and we have too much CO2 in the atmosphere, how does it get in to be retained?

Opponents of Made Made Global Warming...
...(such as myself)should concentrate on the political aspects of the solutions,because this issue has gotten into the political arena.For example,why did every Democrat and Republican Senator vote ,in 1998 to instruct Al Gore to NOT accept the Kyoto Treaty?The answer is that implementing the treaty would devastate our industries and the blue collar workers (read:Unionized).Massive unemployment would result.The opponents should beat this drum over and over.

Those first world nations who made a show of adopting Kyoto have done nothing about this treaty except talk about it.They realized immediately that they would have that same problem,and they were not about to commit economic suicide.

The United States is not a party to Kyoto and will not be until the treaty is submitted to the U.S. Senate and they vote for it.

In 2001 when Bush was being bashed about Kyoto,I remember shouting to my TV screen "Bush,submit the treaty to the Senate for confirmation and tell them to stand up and vote,one at a time.Obviously,it would have been defeated overwhelmingly,the same reason Clinton didn't submit it to the Senate.But Bush is a very poor politician.Oh well.

Part of the problem is this:
sentido: "This planet is finished, and the blood is on your hands." (Note the *YOUR* hands!)

NEVER *OUR* hands! Because the people yelling the loudest are ALWAYS saying is MY FAULT, YOUR FAULT - but NEVER THEIR FAULT! Or even OUR FAULT.

And they travel around the world on jets, screaming for MORE money to research this *settled* science.

Oh, I forgot, they are exempt because they *BUY CARBON CREDITS* (seems a scam, even on the face of it!) They plant a tree and this enables them to do what they want. We plant a garden, but it doesn't count. (Because it hasn't been bought FROM THEM?)

sentido
You are right about one thing, the earth is dying, but it has been dying for thousands or millions of years at about the same pace.

Doing an analysis of ice means only what someone
wishes it to mean.

Question: what happen to the 300ft of ice scientists said was in death valley?

Any child could tell you that there is no way to
measure the temperature of the eath in a precise
manner. It cannot be done!

Newsweek
Newsweek is a paralyzing fog of doubt.

Jestak
"This is a reference to the Bray/von Storch survey, which is highly suspect because the online response procedure was open to manipulation either by one individual making multiple responses or by multiple responses by the same individual. Bray and von Storch have acknowledged that their procedure was 'a procedure that in principle could have been misused by multiple submissions.'"

Is this what I think it is, a true believer questioning science? lol

Some Questions
1)Is the Earth warming? There does appear to be a slight warming over the last century.
2) Why has this occured? Big argument there, but probably several factors at work, one of which is man made CO2.
3) Is this warming bad? The Earth's temperature is always trending either warmer or cooler and in the past warming has generally been good for humanity.
4) Are we in a position to stop it? hahahaha hahahahahahahahahahah
5) Why do you laugh? Assign a portion of responsibilty for GW to human activity. Calculate the degree of CO2 reduction needed to take man out of the loop. Calculate the reduction in economic activity due to that action. Calculate the time it would take voters to get rid of any idiot that voted to stab our economy in the *ss.

We are at 4.6% unemployment and the Libs are screaming bad economy. What happens to them when unemployment is 12%? Everyone knows what will happen ,which is why they won't really do anything.

Tru lib
Kyoto won't hurt the economy. Britain has cut carbon emissions by 14%. It has a strong economy.
>
Yes, warming is bad. Any swift movement in temperature will be a disaster. Humanity flourishes in a stable climate. Thats what the record shows.
>
We are in a position to stop it. The more CO2 emitted the more plants absorb it. So its only "will we stop it before it becomes a disaster?". (There is an area of "positive feedback at around 2 centigrade, so we should aim to stop that!).

Newsweek/Global Warming
There is no doubt that climate change is occurring at a rapid rate ( at least in the relatively short experience of mankind ) at this time. However, the reasons for this change are not completely understood. No doubt man-made pollution is a factor. The QUESTION is to what DEGREE man-made effluents are a factor, as opposed to natural phenomena. The extreme views are what gain the publicity; the real answers, as always, lie somewhere in between. Unfortunately, scientific research has, in too many cases, been allowed to deteriorate to a state of "publish or die", rushing to the media before data has been properly and accurately analyzed. This leads to misrepresentation and confusion. In my opinion, the jury is still out and will be for some time.

sentido
do your part for CO2 eduction
stop breathing

correction
should read CO2 reduction

First of all
An honest-to-goodness statement of fact: all of you/us out there are gonna DIE!!! No matter how much running around in a circle you do, you're outta here. On the face of it, I'm not too thrilled with the idea, but, as I get older, there are some things going on with my body that portend some extended unpleasantness. At some time in the future, checking out might be the better option.

So, here's a question; if, starting today, Los Angeles and the entire Orange County basin shut down, meaning no travel that entails emitting effluents in any way, no airconditioning at all, no energy expenditure of any fashion that causes POLUTION, what is the guaranteed positive result in the fight against (gasp) GLOBAL WARMING? From a personal standpoint, I think that scenario is a good one, having nothing to do with climate control, but that's another subject.

Not good enough? Suppose New York City and all the surrounding burroughs did the same? Guarantees, anybody?

Final question; if I promise to get rid of my SUV and turn down my ac to, oh, say 69 degrees in winter, and up to 79 in summer, will I have done good? Will I have made a difference? Will Al and his pals be proud of me?

What a load of garbage!!

abc123cba
Comparing the USA and Britain is ridiculous. Since 1974 Britain has created fewer than 4 million new jobs. The US economy does better than that every year. Most of the reduction they have achieved was by switching from coal generated electricity to gas generated. That was planned on prior to Kyoto.

If you look at the last four hundred thousand years we have had cycles of warming followed by rapid cooling. These cycles are on the order of about a hundred to a hundred and twenty five thousand years. During these cycles the concentration of CO2 and Methane increased along with the temperature. Obviously there was no man made component of earlier warming. Why did it get warmer?

If earlier trends are an indication of what to expect then we are in for a rapid cooling at some not too distant point. Given the conditions during an Ice Age I would much prefer it to be warm.

It may be that man pumping CO2 into the atmosphere might actually help to stave off the cooling that is surely inevitable and would be a true disaster for most of the people on the Earth.

MISSING LINK
Before the Times of Algoreasaurus, Kerryassaurus, Newsweekassaurus, Timemagassaurus, there existed the big search for “Missing Link”. Every four to six months one of the major purveyors of ink on a platter would announce the latest discovery in the darkest of dark dark Africa another ape like fossil remains that would prove beyond a reasonable doubt Darwin’s Theory of Evolution. During the then war of the scientific skeptics it was necessary to have a museum thing somewhere which would be the symbol par excellance convincing all believers in Alien Abductions and/or Christian Genesis thinking that good ole ground earth evolution developed Joe Six Pack as well as Albert Einstein; but, what these Evol-Believers needed more than ever before was an exemplar primo a primo of a stand erect ape with the mental quick that could play Scrabble. After several years this quasi-competition between the various news media which then included the NBC Today Show with David Garraway and J Fred Muggs the energetic search for Missing Link faded away into a cinematic FINI. Horrors happen when stock options, bonuses, and pay raises scream for a new catalyst into the financial stratosphere putting the preserving the vary existence of these dancing dinosaurs and so it is with Global Warming – Climate Change. Teresa Heinz Kerry, I will wager my bottle of pickles to a considerable measure of your married into fortune – say ten million foundation shares in Heinz Products – to prove or disapprove this climate change hysteria. This action – mother of Kerryasaurrus – goes beyond putting your money where your mouth is; because, this action by its mere presence is wagering vis-à-vis your words and attitudes in contrast to someone who truly believes you are full of digested pickles left floating chocolate solid in the toilet bowl.

trulib
good god man- two days in a row i find myself agreeing with you
are you sure you are really a lib?

Oh, please, sentido!
"If a nay-saying global warming study comes from the American Coal Institute, it's presumptively suspect on its face. Ditto, a tome on the evils of pornography from Focus on the Family. Certain people have a financially-motivated axe to grind.

I see the inevitable change to sustainable fuels and/or development as an economic opportunity of staggering proportion..."

So, it's only bad when the global warming skeptics have any financial interest in sisseminating their point of view; but the financial motivation of those pushing the global warming hysteria is pure as the driven snow, regardless of the "staggering" economic opportunity to be gained by the alternative energy, "carbon-offsets" crowd? Hypocrisy! We should develop alternative fuels to save ourselves from our dependence on hostile foreign oil suppliers, but let's be honest about our motivation.

fredo
Trulib might mean any number of things. If you find yourself agreeing with me you might be one too.

trulib
i consider myself a true conservative
which might mean any number of things
so you might be one also

two question for skeptics
1) Do you really think we can continue dumping 70 million tons (and rising) of CO2 into the atmosphere every single day without altering the climate?

2) Is it possible that we could reduce that amount significantly without damaging the economy?

Phylo out.

trulib
regardless of semantics
you appear to be reasonable and intellectually honest

In all of the debate
there is only one true and obvious fact,

"Climate change is real and undeniable"

and it has been for thousands of years. Had it not been for the little ice age we might be having this debate in Norwegian instead of English. If you listen to the cult of global warming the clime has never changed.

phylo
wanna take a guess at how many tons of greenhouse gases were dumped into the atmosphere
when Mt. St. Helen blew?

Phylo
1.Has it ever occurred to you that we might be doing other things that offset the dumping of CO2? Why is it that people like you always assume that everything we do raises the temperature?

2. No. The difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives don't care about the disruptions in the economy and lost jobs due to globalization, while liberals don't care about them due to their efforts to battle global warming.

By the way, check this out:

http://www.dailytech.com/Blogger+finds+Y2K+bug+in+NASA+Climate+Data/article8383.htm

It turns out the warmest year wasn't 1998, but 1934.

sentido
if co2 reflected sunlight, earth would be an ice ball,

Co2 AND h2o make Earth habitable.

Every 30 years or so, the scientists come up with a new theory. In the 1970's, they said the Ice Age would be there by the start of the 21st century.

Last comment: take a good look where the temperature sensors are located in most cases. (near concrete, asphalt, etc)

sentido
I'm still waiting for you to tell us what happened to the 300ft of ice scientists said was
in death valley!

Also why was the glacier(glacier ntl. pk.) 3 fourths the size in 1917 as it was 100yrs earlier. That is in history!

alGore
is the chairman of http://www.generationim.com/ (Generation Investment Management). alGore has a financial interest in global warming existing and be man made.

Funny how the cult has gone from "global warming" to climate change. Nothing like a little cya to ensure the money tree continues to bear fruit.

Re "Here's the Rub"
Here's where the rub is: about a month ago I was reading some item about Vice-President Cheney. I don't remember what the issue was but I don't recall it as being about global warming but rather showing Cheney's working style. There was a list of the priorities and initiatives he would follow regarding some matter he wanted to defeat, and one of the items read: "Discredit the science behind this".

The thing about global warming is that a majority of accredited world scientists say two things about it: 1) It is caused by carbon emissions by industry and 2) It is harmful to the earth and its atmosphere. Now, this is bad news for industry if people take global warming seriously, because cutting back on carbon emissions, and installing anti-pollution measures in factories, costs money. So industry (and the politicians and journalists who most support industry/business, who are predominantly Republican) have made it their business to, in Cheney's words, "discredit the science behind this".

Environmentalism is bad for business. It causes business to spend more money and make less money. If the people support environmentalism, business will suffer. Therefore, the people must be influenced to oppose environmentalism. One way you do this is "discredit the science". Another way you do that is discredit the spokesmen---get everybody laughing at tree-huggers and spotted-owl champions and especially at Al Gore, who has lent his name and public identity to the cause.

It isn't that Republicans really have anything against environmentalism---after all, they also breathe air and drink water. It's just that they always put business first, before people, and especially before spotted owls.

sentido
"Thing is, the battle against global warming should result in net job gains."

Sheesh! Why should I have to explain the error in this to a liberal? Just because there are net job gains doesn't mean that some people won't end up much worse off than before. There's no guarantee that the new jobs created will go to those who lose their jobs.

And that's assuming that there is a net job gain, which I think is just wishful thinking anyway.

Garbled Reasoning of Gore-Bull Warmies
One of the things that Leftie schemers can count on is the fuzzy thinking of their compatriots. They will swallow just about any nonsense that is served to them.

I always love it when some ditzt says to me, "gee, it seems hotter than I remember from my childhood. It MUST be that Global Warming."

"Excuse me," I say, "where are you from?"

"Oh, I'm from Michigan."

I usually practice keeping a straight face when they say this.

Now, last year, the summer was REALLY hot in Southern California. So the Lefties were claiming that it was going to get hotter and hotter from now on.

Well, this year, except for a couple of hot weeks in June, the summer has been kinda mild. I work at home and the only time I have used my air conditioner is around 4:00 pm, when the sun comes in the window next to my desk. After an hour or so, I can shut it off and open the window again.

The predictions of the Lefties keep turning out to be wrong, but no one seems willing to point out the Emporer Al has no clothes!

lilly
"Environmentalism is bad for business."

It's also bad for poor people, though this is never said by liberals and leftists.

Anyway, businesses EMPLOY people, remember? Raising the cost of doing business is going to hurt people, especially poor people, in one way or another. As workers, they will either be laid off or have their wages cut, and as consumers they will find that prices go up, which again hurts the poor.

I could go on and on about this. Environmentalism is always painted as this wonderfully idealistic movement against evil people, but in fact it is a movement mostly of wealthy liberals who don't care about the poor.

$50 a day Tax on SUVs
"Mayor Ken Livingstone [of London, England] is planning to lower the boom on American-style sport-utility vehicles and other gas-guzzlers by charging a $50 per-day "green tax" for the privilege of driving in the center of London as these vehicles 'make the greatest contribution to global warming'...Driving in London is already an expensive proposition. In addition to gasoline that costs more than $6 a gallon, anyone driving into the 6.5 [center-city zone] between 7 AM and 6 PM must pay a daily fee of $16 [although] car-owners living within the zone get a 90% discount." chicagotribune.com 8-11

sentido
I think you meant to say that CO2 *absorbs* sunlight, not *reflects* sunlight. If it reflected sunlight then we should be pumping as much CO2 into the atmosphere as possible to slow global warming.
I think it is you, not Ms. Saunders, who needs to read up on the subject.


sentido

Please spare me the junk about how the "tree-huggers" love the environment. I saw a good example about 15 years ago. A forest had tree-borers in some of the trees. The local sawmill wanted to harvest those trees. They couldn't because they were "old growth" and could not be touched. Very shortly, the insects spread to the healthy trees, much of a forest died, the sawmill closed and a bunch of people were out of a job.

Same thing also happens when it is not permitted to clear out the deadwood in a forest. ( Can you say kindling?)


Don't look
But one of our congressmeb wants to start a 50 cents a gallon green tax here.

Real good to the poor folk who don't have mass transit like the big city libs.

sentido
CO2 is hardly the only "retainer" of sunlight and it most definitely not the "strongest". CO2 only strongly absorbs in a very small region of the spectrum and in a narrow altitude range. Espousing that as the cause of "global warming" is just plain ignorant. None of that however has anything to do with "global warming". Which if you actually had taken an "upper level astronomy" course you should have known. Maybe you meant astrology?

When people talk about "greenhouse" they are referring to the absorption of infrared radiation emitted from the earth's surface and absorbed by "greenhouse" gases.

Stabbing Ourselves in the Butt
So we institute CO2 controls on every aspect of our lives in order to save the planet. There is a cost to this and it is passed on in the form of higher prices for everything. Unfortunately all the nations of the earth are not on the same bandwagon. That gives those countries a competetive edge over domestic producers. The biggest of those economies is China, a country that just happens to be incredibly poluted. Thay are increasing CO2 output and have no intention of cutting back.

Well, we will just put tariffs on their goods because what they are doing is wrong. Won't that make the domestic producers happy, they love protectionism. A good trade war is what we need to straighten out the worlds problems. Lets shut down trade and make everyone poorer.

I think shutting down business in general is what the tree huggers want and this BS is just a cover. You start putting restrictions on trade and instituting other equally bad economic policies and we will have the same results those actions did when they were put in place in the 1930s. Only this time the war would probably be a lot bigger.

jafis
No doubt man-made pollution is a factor?

Actually, there is a great deal of doubt. You seem to have missed the critical "inconvenient truth". TruLib, sentido, and the acolytes of Brother Al's Doomsday Cult have failed to grasp, or chosen to ignore the unpleasant reality that Fisher's work, cited above, indicates that rising CO2 does NOT "cause" warming. He shows that increases in CO2 come 400 to 1000 years AFTER a rise in temperature. CO2 doesn't cause warming. Warming causes an increase in CO2.

It's just basic physics. Much of the CO2 at any given time is dissolved in the oceans. The solubility of a gas (CO2) in a liquid (seawater) varies inversely with temperature. The warmer the liquid, the less gas can be dissolved in it. As the earth warms, the solubility of CO2 decreases, and CO2 is released into the atmosphere. The oceans warm slowly, so the increase in CO2 comes hundreds of years AFTER the warming trend that caused it.

It doesn't help the credibility of GW advocates when they continue to push discredited claims. That, along with their preference for ad hominem attack over scientific criticism to address work that doesn't support their view, makes the whole GW thing look more like religion than science.

JFP
Your argument that business must be pampered so that it will provide jobs for Americans is no longer valid. Business has been pampered, but nevertheless it has sent jobs offshore so it could make more money without American environmental laws, labor laws, or regulatory laws. Then it kept the money, rewarding its executives on a scale that would have embarrassed King Midas. It didn't fix its American infrastructure. It didn't create jobs here for Americans. Let people look at the labels on their computer, kitchen gadgets, shoes, steel, textiles, furniture: chances are it doesn't read "Made in USA". That means it wasn't made by American workers. Who didn't have American jobs. Provided by American business.

Why do you support this betrayal? Are you not American?

John Galt
The "absorption" of sunlight by CO2 has nothing to do with "global warming". In fact in that scenario you are more likely to have "global cooling" as less of the sun's radiation would reach the earth's surface.

A brief science lesson for sentido.

Radiation from the sun reaches the earth. Most of this radiation is absorbed by atmospheric gases, O2, O3, CO2, N2, H2O, etc. A narrow range of the energy spectrum reaches the earths surface. The surface of the earth heats up and emits infrared radiation. Some of that infrared radiation is absorbed by "greenhouse" gases. This cycle and the oceans are why we have relatively stable temperatures.


lilly
What a crock! Jobs are sent to other countries because we are supposed to be "progressing" from a manufacturing based economy to an information based economy. Basic "progressive liberal" ideology/sociology. We're supposed to move from the farms and factories to little Manhattans where we produce nothing and exchange dollars for gossip.

This is nothing more then wanting your cake but not wanting to dirty your kitchen, then complaining about the bakery.

Your analysis ignorantly assumes "greed" and ignores cost altogether. You and your kind are very quick to insist others sacrifice yet you're the first out the door to protest wind powered energy off Nantucket.


Global Warming Propaganda
Some time ago one of the major news magazines(I believe it was Time) published an issue with a picture on the cover of a polar bear floating away on a small ice floe. The implication was that global warming is melting so much ice at the poles that the polar bears must be running out of room to live. I am sure that this picture was copied by thousands of teachers who gave it to the schoolchildren to take home. We all know how children love animals especially cute furry ones. I'll bet many children went home and beseeched their parents to do something about global warming so that "the poor polar bear won't drown or starve". Now as Paul Harvey says time for the rest of the story. This picture was taken by a freelance photographer who thought it was cute and sold it to Time. He has said that he observed the bear and all it was doing was hopping a ride while hunting for food. There was plenty of snow and ice around and the animal was in no danger of drowning or starving. Time just made it look that way. Talk about tugging at people's heartstrings or misusing the innocent to prove your invalid point.

To add to Roger's analysis
The CO2 released from the oceans moves to the upper atmosphere ~10-30 Km where it absorbs solar energy. The level of solar energy reaching the earth's surface decreases and global cooling ensues.

Hydro-carbon Solution
I've been driving a hydro-carbon eco-vehicle for years. Hydro-carbons are a plentiful, inexpense fuel alternative that should be exploited more.

RecknHavic
I think the tree huggers have been sniffin the hydro-carbons.

lily- the problem of the character of
corporate executives will never be solved by tighter environmental restrictions.

I agree that the values and ethics of American corporations are sorely wanting. They pollute not only the air, but also the mind with their pandering to the lowest common denominator.

But the solution to that has more to do with a return to traditional values being taught in the home and in the schools.

The Left has greatly harmed us by insisting on taking out any teaching of right and wrong.

Just because someone in in business and is making a big salary, it does not automatically make him evil. But if he values money above all else, it can lead to unsavory decisions.

lilly
Environmentalism is BAD for business? I guess you really don't know what has been going on. One of the leaders in the 1997 Kyoto negotiations was an Enron emissary named John Palmisano, who said "This treaty will be good for Enron stock!" Enron, like many of the biggest businesses in America, saw Kyoto, with its global warming laws and regulations, as the best price-fixing and subsidy-creating deal in history. Enron was one of the leaders in the Pew Center on Global Climate Change's Business Environmental Leadership Council. Ken Lay was the poster child for the Heinz Center for Science, Economics and the Environment, and they all worked together on Enron lobbying priorities. Of course, the media doesn't spend any time discussing this. President Clinton and V.P. Al Gore had meetings with Ken Lay about the development of administration positions on those Kyoto negotiations--several of them. (Of course after the Enron scandal, he needed to be linked to a different administration! HA--I say!)

Other businesses involved were NiSource and PG&E National Energy Group. BP is one of the recent businesses hoping to profit off "renewable" resources. So--they have allowed their pipelines in Alaska to corrode and their oil refinery in Texas City to explode because it was not updated. Instead, they are working on a government bailout BECAUSE they are GREEN. Large utilities (and GE) actually make up the majority of the wind power lobby; the subsidies are free money, which pays for all their green PR.

AND--GE--a Green company--has double the lobbyists of EXXON-MOBIL.


Forgive me for being skeptical…
but I’ve seen this before in at least two other areas.

First, everyone is suddenly an “expert” in bridge building. People who can barely bolt their child’s bicycle together have somehow magically become Ph.D.s in mechanical engineering in the last 2 weeks. They are now experts on corrosion, stress, metallurgy, bending, moments, torque, shear, and structural steel. And interestingly, their grasp of Newtonian mechanics all lead us to this inescapable conclusion: “It’s the Republicans’ fault the bridge collapsed.”

Second, when you dare to question Darwinian evolution something similar happens. The average schmuck suddenly sports advanced degrees in biology, biochemistry, zoology, geology, and astrophysics. This allows him to assuredly state that the earth is a billion years old and we descended from a common ancestor that just happened to be non-living chemicals at one time. I, on the other hand, have immediately rescinded my degree in the hard sciences and lowered my IQ to the single digits.

There is no such thing as an honest skeptic, only religious whack jobs. There is no such thing as contrarian scientists, only those bought and paid for by “big business” or “big religion.” There is no such thing as a constantly changing earth, only man-made catastrophes that will kill us all. There is no such thing as people with opinions, only AGW supporters who all sport degrees in the atmospheric sciences and mathematical modeling, and AGW skeptics who belong in mental intitutions.

It has brought me to the conclusion that Ambrose Bierce had it right when he wrote in 1911:

“Positive - To be mistaken at the top of one’s voice.”

Besides, if the AGW fanatics are so absolutely sure of themselves, why have they found it necessary to re-package their dire warnings as “Climate Change” instead of “Global Warming?” That’s like calling heads-tails. You’re sure to win the bet no matter what happens.

Sentido is wrong!
sentido writes:

Saturday, August, 11, 2007 5:51 AM
Climate change is real and undeniable...
and scientists have known why since the Seventies: CO2 reflects sunlight. If you have too much CO2 in the atmosphere, excessive solar radiation will be retained -- and the planet will warm up. A strong (nearly 1:1) correlation between CO2 concentration and planetary temperatures has been shown through analysis of core ice samples, and CO2 concentrations have been as high as we have ever seen in recordable history.
********
CO2 does not reflect sunlight since sunlight is predominantly short-wave radiation. It does tend to reflect long-wave radiation which occurs as sunlight thermalizes objects on the earth and is re-radiated back to the atmosphere.

The CO2-temp. historical correlation he cites appears by the research to be a trailing relationship rather than a causal one.

Thirdly, his "recordable (sic)history" qualification is a problem since the recorded history of CO2 measurements is quite short compared to "recorded history", such as the little ice age data that did not include CO2 measurements. However, his statement is incorrect since much wider temperature excursion occurred along with much higher CO2 and methane concentrations before man came on to the scene.

sentido /abc /Phylo /lilly
Your comments show an extreme lack of knowlege of the subject.

I CHALLENGE YOU TO REFUTE THE FOLLOWING FACTS in any meaningfull manner. I'LL BET YOU CAN'T DO IT!

1. CO2 comprises only .036% of the atmosphere. Yes, that is only 36 thousandths of one percent! 360 parts per million (like 36 cents out of 1,000 dollars).

2. There are other greenhouse gasses that are almost entirely natural, notably nitrous oxide (which is 310 times more effective than CO2 as a greenhouse gas) and methane (which is 21 times as effective) and water vapor (which is less effective on a volume basis but 100 times more plentiful in the mid latitudes).

3. The anthropogenic contribution of CO2 is about 3.2%(lowest estimate) to 20% (highest estimate)of total CO2.

4. The anthropogenic (man-made) Contribution to the "Greenhouse Effect," expressed as % of Total Based on concentrations (ppb) adjusted for heat retention characteristics % of All Greenhouse Gases
% Natural
% Man-made
Water vapor 95.000%
Carbon Dioxide (CO2) 3.618%
Methane (CH4) 0.360%
Nitrous Oxide (N2O) 0.950%
Misc. gases 0.072%

Total 100.00%

Therefore, the anthropogenic contribution to greenhouse gasses via CO2 is is little as .11% at the lowest estimate to .79% at the highest estimate. That's not 79%! That's 79 one hundredths of one percent!

OH WOW!!! I'M REALLY WORRIED!

http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

sentido
"Think of what DDT did to the environment."

No, I prefer to think of what Rachel Carson did to the poor people who relied on DDT to keep malaria under control.

Barry

What's Missing
In all the scientific studies and various reports has anyone come across the mention of water vapor? Except for nitrogen it would seem to me there would be a lot more of that than anything else. What role does water vapor play in this and is there any way to model it.

Please, if this is stupid let me know and I will go sit in the corner.

sentido
Yes, climate change is "real and undeniable" and that statement would have been true at any time in the Earth's history and it will always be true. SO WHAT?

We will never be able to change that fact. We CAN reduce pollution and develop other energy sources and improve the efficiency of automobiles, AC, lighting and heating systems. Who is opposed to any of those things?

We can also develop our own resources, like drilling in ANWAR, for example, and becoming less dependant on the Middle East and developing more neuclear power. Who opposes that? The left does!

Don't let your idelology get in the way of your common sense!

To Jestak: August, 11, 200 1:26 AM
Climatologist Bill Grey, Colorado State University professor, has written in several invertviews that he has trouble getting his work (he believes global warming is not primarily induced by human activity) into peer reviewed journals. Google such interviews. That would be evidence in favor of Saunders' thesis. While wagging a finger at her for not doing her homework, I believe you need to do more too.

TruLib
Please look at my post of 12:19. Water vapor is BY FAR the most important greenhouse gas and it is highest in the latitudes that receive the most solar energy.

Pardon me for being stupid but...
Isn't CO2 the same thing we (humans) breath out after we breath oxygen in? So wouldn't that mean the very act of living is in and of itself pollutive?
Let me skip past that for a moment, this is what I want to know. I have been told my entire life that because of global warming the earth will grow something like 1.6 degrees farenheit warmer over the next hundred years or some such nonesense as that. Now even if that were true (this is for the purspose of this discussion, as I do not believe in any of this) exactly why would that be a bad thing? It would appear evident that a much larger part of the north is moving south rather than the other way around. Also, how do we know that this prediction will come true anyway? Every morning, noon, and night you can watch your local news doing a weather forcast over a 5 day period of time that is usually wrong. If these guys can not get it right for five days, why should they be given credibility for predictions which are not to take effect for many decades from now? Furthermore, in reality the temperature DOES fluctuate several degrees from day to day, regardless what we do. So how is it that we are not perpetuatly bursting into flames every time the temperature goes up 1.6 degrees from day to day?

long ago
Yosemite valley was created by glacial action......so far no dispute about that fact... Houston, we have consensus....The ice that formed Yosemite melted long before man had any effect on weather(which btw he still doesn't)...again we have consensus....so what caused the melting?
And just one question for all you global warming religion zealots.....just who determines what the proper temperature is for the planet? Algore? Congress? The United Nations? There are many desirable results from this planet warming, so stay out of my life, and leave the American people alone so we can solve the many problems we have, mostly problems created by Muslims and liberals working hand in hand to weaken free people everywhere.

TruLib and abc123
Not only should Britain not be compared to the US, Britain's CO2 emission reductions shouldn't even be compared to the aspirations of Kyoto.

Britain hasn't reduced her energy use. She has closed down high-emitting coal-fired plants in favor of gas-powered plants. That's how she has achieved her emissions reduction. And that process has been underway since the first years of Margaret Thatcher's tenure as PM (we old folks remember the miners' strikes and North Sea natural gas finds from that period).

The energy use of the European signatories to Kyoto has increased since they signed on. The ONLY reason some of them have decreased their EMISSIONS (not their energy use) from the 1991 benchmark is that they have closed outdated, high-emitting plants (those all across the former East Germany, for example), in favor of lower-emitting plants.

Each of the nations in question had a long-term strategy to do so, WELL PRIOR TO Kyoto: Britain's Thatcher-era "dash to gas," France's 50-year commitment to nuclear power, Germany's economic plan for reunification. Reporting from 2005, however, indicates that their actual energy use has grown, at an accelerated pace, since they signed Kyoto.

America has curbed emissions without harming our economy too, since before the European Kyoto signatories did; we just did it before it was cool -- and before it counted against the 1991 Kyoto benchmark. Now that Europeans would have to actually cut energy use, and not just modernize their production facilities, to look good by the Kyoto standard, they are guaranteed not to make their next Kyoto objectives.

Whosebone
I think I should be the one that decides what the temperature should be. It should stay between 65 and 75 wherever I am. You all need to get on that.

DDT
if you google "DDT" you will find it is a miracle chemical that the banning of has cost the lives of MILLIONS of africans from malaria.
The inventor of DDT used to drink it to prove its lack of danger to humans.
Rachel Carson has blood on her hands from all the lies she told.

sentido
What you lack in facts seems to be more than compensated for by your abundance of passion. There is little I can add to what has already been posted here regarding the reasons to question the "fact" of AGW.

If, as you state, it's already "too late" because we didn't act sooner, then I have to ask why in the world you are campaigning for change so stridently? Apparently, it doesn't matter anymore.

It's as if you've decided that because we've irrepairably damaged the climate, we must now do penance by inflicting the same damage on the US economy. And why confine your angst to the United States? You act as though the actions of a single country can solve a global problem. Out of sight, out of mind. That's what allows you to drive that hybrid vehicle with such smugness when much of the plastic and other parts were made in China or Mexico where the factories are belching carbon. But because it isn't in your backyard, it isn't a problem.

I don't know of a single person that if given incotrovertible evidence that:

A. the climate has change strictly because of man

B. this change will be catastrophic

C. man alone can effectively reverse this change

they would not wholeheartedly support efforts to remedy it.

But we have not been able to answer even ONE of the above issues (A, B, or C) conclusively, let alone all three. The earth went through an ice age without any help from us. Then it warmed. And it has gone through heating/cooling oscillations ever since. Nobody disputes that it is getting warmer. But that is not the same thing as answering A-C above.

If there has been "scientific consensus" and "debate is over" perhaps you could point me to the place where this has been conclusively documented as well.

So, I come back to the conclusion of my earlier post. You perfectly personify the following:

"Positive - To be mistaken at the top of one's voice."

Who will go down with the climate?
I should have known that if I lived long enough I would see the day when scientific theories became political footballs. Because left-wingers want to discredit Americans, white people and humans generally, we have the "inconvenient truth" people pushing their version. Others, who appear to believe the leftists are pushing that version because they are leftists, disagree.

The same leftists are opposing an American win in Iraq, and therefore can be seen as rooting for a terrorist victory.

So I have to imagine the leftists will have their way, and if so, I hope they will be proved to be right about climate change. That is to say, when the planet finally turns into a flaming ball of fire, the only ones left on earth to burn will be the Islamic terrorists and their friends.

Not a bad ending, after all.

3 posings 1 of 3
see
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=175b568a-802a-23ad-4c69-9bdd978fb3cd
y 30, 2007

Latest Scientific Studies Refute Fears of Greenland Melt
Ilulissat, Greenland – The July 27-29 2007 U.S. Senate trip to Greenland ....
------------

see
http://www.norcalblogs.com/watts/2007/08/1998_no_longer_the_hottest_yea.html
Watts Up With That?

littlegreen

Blogger Finds Y2K Bug in NASA Climate Data.

NASA has now silently released corrected figures, and the changes are truly astounding. The warmest year on record is now 1934. 1998 (long trumpeted by the media as record-breaking) moves to second place. 1921 takes third. In fact, 5 of the 10 warmest years on record now all occur before World War II. Anthony Watts has put the new data in chart form, along with a more detailed summary of the events.

The effect of the correction on global temperatures is minor (some 1-2% less warming than originally thought), but the effect on the U.S. global warming propaganda machine could be huge."
---------

changed to 2 out of 2
---------

see
*A coming cold day for a warm globe*

By Wesley Pruden JWR 6-22-07

jewishworldreview.com
"** This just in from Chicken Little: It's a cloud, not the sky, that's about to fall. So button up your overcoat. Earth is about to cool off.


"It's global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world," says Timothy Patterson, director of the Ottawa-Carleton Geoscience Center at Carleton University in Canada. He sets out in Toronto's National Post a fascinating and wholly credible argument, backing up what many of his scientific colleagues regard as nothing less than blasphemy.

This goes against the received theology of the Worldwide Church of Science, of course, and Mr. Patterson is not likely to be invited to the tea parties of the archbishops presiding over the global-warming debate, which the archbishops insist is over. Only this week a group of six American scientists declared the Earth in "imminent peril" and scolded a United Nations panel on climate change for "grossly underestimating" how much the sea will rise over the next century. "

---------------
norcalblogs on weather_stations

How not to measure Temperature, part 26 - counting A/C units

"what you can get from satellite images and databases can't really prepare you for what you may find. I "expected" to find an old classic Stevenson Screen, probably near the Ranger Station office. Check on that. But what I didn't expect to find was a "rural" station swimming in a sea of exhaust from 22 air conditioning units within 100 feet of the Stevenson Screen. Ridiculous, you are making this up you say? Well that would be my first reaction too."
-----------
Buenos Aires Gets First Snow Since 1918
------

annoying
Boy is Townhall annoying. They want intelligent discussion but if you give references to what you are quoting they block it.

Plus they have the most annoying ad of any website, the whiny Brooklyn girl with her sing song voice advertising the notebook.
Does anyone think that annoying people is the way to sell a computer? I don't have a daughter. I don't have a son. Sell me cat food!




jestak: your post sounds very...
...convincing. However, your post is obviously the lib/lefty line, and so fails my test. I know what the scientific method is, and it does not include intimidation of whoever disagrees with you.

My approach here applies to every lib/lefty v conservative dispute: Since the conservative philosophy has a solid foundation in truth and common sense, while the lib/lefty line is based on outrageous perversions (disguised as progressivism), when I can't personally figure the answer out, I go with the conservative position.

lack of sentido: re your 7:28 a post
You say: "If a nay-saying global warming study comes from the American Coal Institute, it's presumptively suspect on its face. Ditto, a tome on the evils of pornography from Focus on the Family. Certain people have a financially-motivated axe to grind."

Please tell me what is Focus on the Family's axe to grind in their tome on the evils of pornography, other than to prevent another Ted Bundy to kill your daughter?

that last post of mine might appear...
...to be off topic, but it really isn't. I intended with that to probe the defective lib/lefty thinking, which they apply not just to porn or global warming, but to all their proposed perversions.

It shall always be so.
Mankind has always been cursed with charlatans demanding sacrifice to the climate.
Where ancient witches and shamen, etc. demanded sacrifice to appease the four seasons we now have self appointed charlatans demanding we sacrifice to appease the normal cycle of climate change.

Has anyone noticed the charlatans making any sacrifice?

by the way, 'sentido' means...
...'sense' or 'direction' in Spanish. But then maybe he is intending that the Arabic meaning be used, which is 'screwed up.'

ad
My guess is the ad man who created the girl who wants the Notebook ad is a democrat. Dems always think we want to hear and see their children, and their children are so adorable, and they can plunk them in ads and give them an income and everyone will be delighted. Remember that obnoxious child they had give a speech at the democratic convention? Blech! There is an ad on radio where a 5 year old lectures us about democracy. The children are always precocious and opinionated. Blech again. I don't think conservatives do that. Note to ad people: you have children, enjoy them. People adore their own children. It does not mean they want to see someone else's kid. What makes you kvell, does not sell.




One Solution
Have any of you ever noticed that only ONE solution to global warming is being proposed or considered by politicians, a solution that involves the threat of force to compel certain human behaviors?

It never occurred to them to propose detonating hydrogen bombs or inducing volcanic eruptions; Carl Sagan actually mentioned the effect of hydrogen bomb detonations on the climate in a debate with William Buckley back in 1983.

discrediting the science behind global..
...warming, and discredit the people behind it.

Lilly regarding your 10:17 a post, it doesn't matter that it happened to be Cheney who said discredit the science behind global warming, because NEITHER DISCREDITING THE SCIENCE BEHIND GLOBAL WARMING NOR DISCREDITING THE PIMPS BEHIND IT IS VERY DIFFICULT, as you can see.

Wally
Has there been any investigation into water vapor's role in warming? It appears to be the 800 lb. gorilla in the living room.

not my fault nor yours.
sentido: "Think DDT, and what it almost did to the ecosystem."

Oh. I was listening to you right up until here. You seem intelligent.

http://www.fightingmalaria.org/news.aspx?id=810

I remain a skeptic about AGW until the hysteria slows down and a genuine debate ensues. Harming the poorest amongst us is not the goal of the Unites States whether the poor are in Africa or on the N.A. continent or anywhere else. Stories like this (link below) are alarming but only in the inability of believers to see the consequences of their actions:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2126614,00.html

Harming people anywhere on this globe will not help anyone deal with warming.

We were born into a fossil fuel society. We use them to survive. I did not create the system. I want off oil because it's like receiving a government check: those with the goods hold too much power and have too much say.

As for ethanol, that too is creating its own problems, again because government's rush to fix everything without thinking it through:

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38688

Politicians who have little scientific background have run amok in their alarmism, fed by the environmentalist groups and a political, climate-change-fear juggernaut that has billions tossed at it compared to a few million for dissenters--some of them critics of the hostile intellectual climate against them.

I remain unconvinced.


jestak, you are confusing me with...
...someone else. I repeat: Your postings sound very good, but they come from the lib/lefty side which bases most of their progressivism on perversions, subversion, confusion. So your stuff is worthless.

HankRearden
You offer good points. As I heard someone ask recently, "Who, exactly, is in charge of deciding what the right temperature is?" Since the northern hemisphere was considerably warmer a thousand years ago, and life in northern Europe (Even Greenland) flourished, maybe ending the cold snap we've been experiencing the last few centuries would be healthy. Not that there's anything humans can do one way or the other, that is.

Carbon, an element of the periodic table, is a building block of life as we know it--NOT a pollutant. CO2, exhaled by animals and necessary for plants, is also NOT a pollutant. Without CO2, the earth dies. As natural conditions in the time of the dinosaurs led to an extended period with CO2 concentrations many times greater than those found today, it's obvious that the miniscule changes we've seen in CO2 in the past few centuries are insignificant.

The earth will get warmer and cooler periodically, and there's NOTHING humans can do to change this, any more than we can change the tides or relocate the moon.

Jestak
Thanks for the links

?
How is it some of you can post websites? When I attempt to post websites, Townhall refuses to post my posts.

Prove it! Put up, or shut up!
I can remember well over a decade prior to Dr. Hansen's original 1986 announcement of annthrogenic carbon dioxide induced "global warming." There had in fact been a series of campaigns on various environmental pretexts to vastly expand government control over our lives. For example, remember "acid rain?" It was supposed to be a justification for shutting down all coal-fired electrical generation, much steel production, & use of diesel & fuel oils, among other drastic measures.

The "climate change" flap is virtually tailor made to rationalize totalitarianism. Virtually eveything humans do, especially technologically advanced ones, creates carbon dioxide. (Most remaining activites generate methane!) The "logic" leads inevitably to the proposition that a world nanny governemnt must nitpick over our lives & decide everything we may do and have. Knowing such totalitarinism has been the goal of certain elitists anyway, I find this suspicious.

The anthrogenic "claimate change" theory has never actually been proven. The numbers of scientists "voting" for or against is irrelevant; science is based upon reproducible, demonstrable proof that explains the otherwise unexplainable, can be defended when questioned, and perhaps predicts new phenomena later observed. "Climate change" has never achieved this. It has simply been talked & written about as though it had. That is a kind of Big Lie propaganda technique, not the scientific method.

The radical greenies are asking for us to make huge sacrifices of freedom and prosperity, on the basis of shouting, threatening, and arm-waving.

what ice age?
How do we know there was a "last" ice age. I think there was ice on this "blue marble" when it first came into being(it was born that way).
Then the sun got hotter'n hell and the ice began to melt and the results are before us now.
Ther is nothing complex about what is going on at all.
ALL things are born-they live - and they die.
And yes it is that simple!

We all know that the great global
warming fiasco is a scam put forth by crooks and liars to rob people. The UN wants it to transfer money from the West to the so called "developing world" (actually to the pockets of tin pot dictators). Crooks like Albore want it simply to get richer by selling carbon offsets which accomplish nothing but a money transfer. And finally, the rest of the professional politicians are pushing it for two reasons. One their ideal solution is a "carbon tax" which is always their solution to every dreamed up problem, another tax so they can advance socialism. The other reason they are pushing it is one of the Dem's biggest supporters, the Green Lobby. The greens want it because they think government will force everyone but them to live a "greener" life.

Here's what we know about this scam.

1. At least two of the major findings by the panel have been proven to be fraudulent. That's not just in error, that's in error on purpose.

2. Every argument that has been made to show that manmade CO2 is causing a large temperature increase has been shown to be false.

3. Prior to the change in K-factors for actual measured temperature, the so called world average temperature was decreasing for the past several years. Now it is merely stable. Even the most uneducated troll knows that if you are interested in observing a historical trend you can not change the way you measure the data and still have a valid result.

If you really want to see where this scam is coming from all you have to do is follow the money. The next time someone pushes this scam ask them which taxes they are going to decrease in order to make all this tax neutral. More than likely you will get no response.

Vic
You mean you are not goung to drive your SUV up onto the stone alter for sacrifice?
I guess the volcano is out of the question too?

Jestak's/libs/lefties arguments worthles
Jestak writes: Saturday, August, 11, 2007 3:25 PM
Sorry Luis
I got you confused with Louie, who actually raised a substantive point, instead of just dismissing my arguments as "worthless."

Well! Huff, huff, puff, puff! I guess that shows me!

The libs/lefties have shown what perversions, subversion, confusion they are capable of. I suppose you would take it personally when someone tells you that the foundation for your interpretation of reality has ulterior motives that intend to turn the world upside down. But that's the way it is.

Myopine
I'm doing my part by living in a smaller house than Albore, not flying anywhere like the limosine liberals, I reduced the milage on my truck to less than 2K per year, and I planted several trees this year. I also gave up beans, but that doesn't help with the CO2, it helps with the "other" greenhouse gas.

Jestak
Peer review must be some kind of buzz word slogan for you scam artists. Many of the so called peers that are listed by the UN panel of politician/crooks reported errors in the calculations and data. When they were blown off by the panel they asked that their name be removed from the report. Of course that didn't happen.

In short, perr review is worthless when comments are not incorporated.

What taxes do you favor decreasing to offset the added expenses?

Jestak
All you need to do is do a search on TH for global warming. We have been posting links to articles that refute this scam for months.

I will be glad to do your research for you for the nominal sum of $41.00/hr payable in advance. Of course, you have already seen these articles and chose not to believe them anyway.

??

Anybody checked this article yet?

Blogger Finds Y2K Bug in NASA Climate Data.

Jestak
http://www.junkscience.com is a site like scambusters that debunks science scams.

Go there and you will find ample proof that AGW is a HOAX!

If you are just another innocent dupe who has been scammed then this will suffice.

If you are one of the huxters to promote this scam then NOTHING will change your mind.

CO2 comes AFTER the warming.
CO2 is not a cause of anything, it is a RESULT!

Bytheocean
I posted a link to it yesterday. Fox News actually discussed this.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/08/revised_temp_data_reduces_glob.html

Myopine
Jestak is not interested in anything but his own preconceived results.

jestak
Al the hoax Gore is playing with your mind, and your mind is not large enough to protect itself.
The HOAX man is lying through his teeth, so grow up and get with the majority.

Jestak
I am sure Vic is wrong and that you are a reasonable person who will read this and see the World is becoming alerted to your AGW Scam and you will need to find another cause for an International Tax.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200708/CUL20070803a.html

Jestak
You havn't answered my question. Which taxes will you reduce?

Vic shared this little number with me...
http://www.kxmb.com/News/Nation/151418.asp

NASA Drastically Revises Global Temperature Numbers
Aug 9 2007 12:00AM

And wouldn’t you know it, the warmest year on record for the world wasn’t 1998 so much as it was 1934, or just 20 or so years after the automobile began seeing widespread use

NASA has now silently released corrected figures, and the changes are truly astounding. The warmest year on record is now 1934. 1998 (long trumpeted by the media as record-breaking) moves to second place. 1921 takes third. In fact, 5 of the 10 warmest years on record now all occur before World War II. Anthony Watts has put the new data in chart form, along with a more detailed summary of the events.....


This is NOT going to make the "Warmies" happy one little bit! No it is not! :-)




Jestak
I see you did not bother to go to Junkscience and learn how AGW has been PROVEN TO BE A HOAX!

This subject has been discussed many times on TH and I doubt you can scam anyone here.
There are a few gullible people who still believe in AGW and it is possible you might find someone that naive somewhere but not here at TH.

To be brief and to the point;
NO SALE!

Jestak: That's also in the kxmb.com

post that Vic showed me the other day...


GlobalWarmingScam
offers a healthy dose of profit from phony carbon offsets and tax dodges. Come see us today.

What's is your wallet?

http://www.capitalone.com/indexa.php

Jestak
On the subject of credibility;

You do know the Sun and other planets in our Solar System are also heating up?
I don't think Vic's truck is causing that!

Did you ever give thought to what could possibly cause that?
Like what is matter? Specks of orbiting energy?
Follow that pattern of elliptical orbit outward with your mind.
See the constant repetition?
What we see of our universe is a giant expanding arc.
Would an orbital ring be more typical of matter?
Distances are so great we cannot determine if it is a ring or not.
We can't even be sure there are no other rings.
We have no reference point to determine if such a ring is rotating.
If such an elliptical ring was slowly orbiting a distant heat source we would see exactly the same climate changes we experience.

See what happens to people who play with Conservatives at TH?

Jestak: Yes, I saw that... and that's

why I posted the link that Vic showed me...

The bug seems to be getting around... :-)


And, did you see above, Mountain Rose called them the "Warmies." I do like that.. HA HA HA



Jestak

From your own link:
"It comes as no surprise that other factors besides CO2 affect climate. Changes in the amount of summer sunshine, due to changes in the Earth's orbit around the sun that happen every 21,000 years, have long been known to affect the comings and goings of ice ages. Atlantic ocean circulation slowdowns are thought to warm Antarctica, also"

Perhaps you should read your own links, this sounds like there are numerous factors in climate change which is what most of the posters have been saying.

CO2 CAUSING PLANETS TO WARM?
If news reports are to be trusted, planets other than the earth are also showing signs of warming.

So, are the GW model devisors taking solar trends into consideration, since I rather doubt mankind has much effect on the temperature of Mars and beyond, but whatever it is that is warming the other planets surely must be effecting the earth also.

I wonder what algore has to say on the subject?

Jestak
I am very sorry I overestimated your intellect.
I wrongly assumed you would give some thought to my theory.

It is clear now you are simply a scam artist deluding himself that he can find someone at TH naive enough to buy his hoax.
Everyone here knows the reason for the HOAX!
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200705/POL20070511b.html


Professional Integrity
Ok, this thread is sixteen hours old now. Coo-Coo Little’s cousins Phylo Se Fiser, sentido, and lilly have faded into Jestak holding forth with amazing fortitude. And now MyOpine has called the question by offering: “Global Warming Skeptics Advance, Says Inhofe”

Ms. Saunders’ article was an assertion that eco-fascists aren’t scientists. They have a hypothesis, read agenda. They’ve thrown as much money at it as they can muster, using circular reasoning and a closed academic guild, err, publicly funded scientific community. And so what, so has corporate America. Her premise was: “…If dissent is so rare, why do global-warming conformists feel the strong need to argue that minority views should be dismissed as nutty or venal? Why not posit that there is such a thing as honest disagreement on the science?”

It was a pig of a hoax from the beginning. Then someone like Marlo Lewis comes along and offends the handle pulling wizard (Martin Eckhart, President, American Council on Renewable Energy) by wiping the lipstick off the pig and he goes Soprano in an email: "It is my intention to destroy your career as a liar. If you produce one more editorial against climate change, I will launch a campaign against your professional integrity. I will call you a liar and charlatan to the Harvard community of which you and I are members. I will call you out as a man who has been bought by Corporate America.”

To review, Ms. Saunders used the words, “nutty or venal”. I think Mr. Eckhart’s pillory produced both in short order.

Nicely done there, MyOpine!

Yes Mountain Rose, I too am enjoying a mild SoCal summer, made especially so by the absence of local media reports with prancing Global Warmies.

Thanks all, I think I’ll make burritos for dinner.

Jestak
You claim disbelief of links other people post on this thread.
Why should we give credibility to any link you post?

Al Gore Leads Coup
With all congressmen that voted to impose severe CO2 resstrictions having been voted out of office there will be only one hope for humanity! Al Gore must lead his army of tie dyed moonbats to retake Capital Hill from the cursed free market capitalist running dogs.

With specially trained vegan assault troops firing organic free range potatos they will take back that which was stolen from them. From the secret 'Lyndon Johnson Anti Voter Fraud Bunker' Al will rally his troops to victory. Then Al will jet off in his Gulfstream to party the night out with his Hollywood friends.

The debate is settled-
No global warming. No need to figure out what the causes are since its not happening.

Liberals - pay your green tax & be quiet. BTW - you are not paying enough. Its never enough. You have to save the whole world from EVERYTHING! You really need to pony up. Don't worry. There will be a gov't bailout if you contribute too much.

Its so nice to know that all we have to do is wait another 6 years from Algore's little hissy speach about "we have 10 years". By then, the hysteria will already be down to a few remaining kooks who can't afford to advertise their scams.

Yes, 6 years until we naysayers are proven incontrovertibly correct. At which time, the additional "Paranoid Hysteria Mongering" tax will be instituted against anyone drumming up the next scam. That is ON TOP of the Green tax (which the rich are not paying their fair share, are they?)

IPCC report = more evidence that dropping acid in the 60's did more damage to college kid's brains than we thought.

Jestak
What is your solution for Global Warming?

I Saw An Amusing Sign
FREE FIREWOOD
CARBON OFFSET- $250/cord

Presumably the purchaser of the firewood would be paying the seller of the firewood for NOT burning the wood!

Jestak
YOU HAVE REFUTED NOTHING!
You have simply denied the truth others have posted.
You can CLAIM or DENY anything you want to but that still does not change a single fact.

Steven Milloy has proven AGW a hoax.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292810,00.html
You can deny it all you want but it remains a fact!

And I have exposed the FACT that the only reason you try to sell this hoax is to justify an International Tax.
Who wants a tax to equalize World Wealth?
http://cpc.lee.house.gov
Click on Caucus Members to see a partial list.
Find it strange that mainly Communists and Communist dupes are trying to peddle AGW?

You don't fool anyone.
You have entertained us here today and I thank you for that.
Far better men than you have tried to sell AGW here.
Don't feel bad about failing.

BTW
Since our Gov't taxes EVERYTHING, its time the U.N. tax started clinking coins in our coffer. Apparently our Gov't can and is supposed to tax the living h-ll out of EVERYTHING that exists and everyone that exists (just to keep in fair).

Inventing new taxes while raking in record breaking receipts is part of their job. Let there be a tax on over-exhaling, Couch-potato farming, Schnauzer petting, peligious pamphlet despensing, and any and everything else.

I harken back to the good old days of King George when taxation was far more reasonble.

I voluteer to pay a tax
that pays the Gov't to keep scams like global warming out of my life.

Link to the best Blog
discusion on Global Warming that I have seen in a long time.

http://networdblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/global-warming-examined.html

jestak

I thought you would have looked at it before posting it.

it waS http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/02/co2-lags-not-leads.html

and you posted it.

No body ha

Entikre solar system is warming
Eventually, all the GW-mongers are going to stumble across web info easily available on any search engine that reports cosmologists have been claiming that all the planets and their moons are warming. The sun is evidently in a high radiation period.

Venus is hotter than ever, the poles of Mars are really melting, Jupiter has generated a new red-spot storm attributed to warming, the southern hemisphere of Saturn is warming, even Pluto (now a planetoid) is warming, oddly as it now moves away from the sun in its orbit and flies deeper into (outer and colder) space.

I doubt pollution from SUV's are affecting Jupiter or coal-fired power plants are warming Saturn.

Can someone please explain exactly
what terrible thing is supposed to happen as a result of higher amounts of Carbon DIOXIDE?

We NEED CO2 to live!!!!!!!!!!

Cripes! It's Carbon DIoxide, natural, colorless, odorless, present in the atmosphere, incombustible gas, CO2, formed during respiration......

It's not like it's Carbon MONoxide which is a colorless, odorless, highly poisonous gas.





Jestak
You claim to doubt my sources, I doubt your sources.
You can't even get your links straight anyway.

As to you claim that I do not know your motives;
There is only ONE MOTIVE for the AGW hoax.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200705/POL20070511b.html

Are you trying to tell me you are just an innocent dupe trying to save the World?
Do you walk the walk or just talk the talk?
Do you do your share?
http://www.liberalwhiners.com/print.php?a=1218

The Wheels are coming the

GloBULL Warming wagon!

http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/450392,CST-EDT-REF30b.article

Alarmist global warming claims melt under scientific scrutiny
June 30, 2007
BY JAMES M. TAYLOR

"Gore claims the snowcap atop Africa's Mt. Kilimanjaro is shrinking and that global warming is to blame. Yet according to the November 23, 2003, issue of Nature magazine, "Although it's tempting to blame the ice loss on global warming, researchers think that deforestation of the mountain's foothills is the more likely culprit. Without the forests' humidity, previously moisture-laden winds blew dry. No longer replenished with water, the ice is evaporating in the strong equatorial sunshine."

"Gore claims global warming is causing more tornadoes. Yet the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change stated in February that there has been no scientific link established between global warming and tornadoes.

"Gore claims global warming is causing more frequent and severe hurricanes. However, hurricane expert Chris Landsea published a study on May 1 documenting that hurricane activity is no higher now than in decades past. Hurricane expert William Gray reported just a few days earlier, on April 27, that the number of major hurricanes making landfall on the U.S. Atlantic coast has declined in the past 40 years."


Sorry: Should be "Wheels coming OFF the
GloBULL Warming Wagon....



Not looking good for albore

and his gang of "Warmies."

But, we all know it's probably Pres. Bush's fault. LOL






Anne
On the subject of Algore;
Do you see a similarity between Algore's BTU Tax and this Carbon Tax scam?

MyOpine: Yeah! What's that all about?
.

Researchers think
> researchers think that deforestation of the mountain's foothills is the more likely culprit. Without the forests' humidity, previously moisture-laden winds blew dry. No longer replenished with water, the ice is evaporating in the strong equatorial sunshine." <

So, according to this theory, this warming is human caused.



Anne
Don't you remember when Algore wanted to tax all fuels based upon the British Thermal Unites they contained?

This Carbon Tax is just a paint job on the BTU tax.

It is simply redistribution of America's wealth to 3rd World Nations.
To be be administered by The United Nations!
You trust them don't you?

Pancho: What? You ARE kidding? Right?

Please tell us you're kidding.... please!

"...according to this theory, this warming is human caused."

Geez, that's doesn't even qualify as a "stretch."

More liberal logic? 1, 4, J, 3, purple, 8, M!




MyOpine: YOU are right!

Good call! The man is a twit!




TruLib
"Has there been any investigation into water vapor's role in warming? It appears to be the 800 lb. gorilla in the living room."

Absolutely!! Water vapor accounts for 95% of the greenhouse gas effect in the latitudes where most of the warming occurs (and almost none of the effect in the polar regions). Look at my 12:19 pm post.

I challenged Jestak et al to refute the data I presented but no one will take me up on it.

The global whiners
Are more dangereous to mankind than any warming.

Global Hot Air
I say that the evil rich people are not paying their fair share to remove the SUVs from Mars. That unfortunate globe is getting hotter, and no sensible person believes that fluctuations of solar energy could possibly be the cause. http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

Wally: Lots more material on that

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/8/1/212212.shtml

Underwater volcanic activity in the Arctic Ocean
far stronger than anyone ever imagined!
by Ned Stafford

"We expected this to be a hydrothermally dead ridge, and almost every time our water measurement instrument came up, they showed evidence of hydrothermal activity, and once we even 'saw' an active hot spring on the sea floor," said Dr. Jonathan Snow, the leader of the research group from the Max Planck Institute.

"OK. So, what does this ocean warming do? As I have written, simply put, the heated ocean water causes increasing amounts of carbon dioxide and moisture to rise up into the atmosphere, where the moisture becomes precipitation – heavy rain in the spring, summer and fall, and snow in the winter. (That's where all that CO2 greenhouse gas comes from, not from manmade causes such as the burning of fossil fuels and grilling hot dogs on your backyard grill.)"

There is plenty more in this article worth reading...

poorgrandchildren: Ok! That has GOT
to be one of the funniest lines I've read in a long time!

"I say that the evil rich people are not paying their fair share to remove the SUVs from Mars."

I aboslutely LOVE it! LOL






scientists being consistent
"If dissent is so rare, why do global-warming conformists feel the strong need to argue that minority views should be dismissed as nutty or venal? Why not posit that there is such a thing as honest disagreement on the science?"

True. In fact, kind of like ... evolution.

Jestak
I AM SURPRISED YOU WOULDN'T TAKE MY CHALLENGE!

I presented evidence that water vapor comprises 95% of the greenhouse gas in the latitudes where most of the insolation occurs. (see my post of 12:19pm).

I looked at the blog you referenced on water vapor. I must say I found it to be unconvincing in the extreme as he presents no verifiable data and even contradicts himself in his explanation as follows: "It is however, not considered as a climate "forcing" because the amount of H2O in the air varies basically as a function of temperature. If you artificially increase the level of H2O in the air, it rains out immediately (in terms of climate response times), similarily, due to the abundance of sea surface, if you somehow removed water from the air it would quickly be replaced through evaporation."

In the mid latitudes, water vapor is often over 100 TIMES more abundant than CO2. It is temperature sensitive THAT'S THE POINT. To say that that is a reason to discount it makes no sense at all. He also discounts it because of its abundance! This again makes no sense. His contention that without CO2 all of the water would precipitate out is a theory with no foundation in fact but it nevertheless beside the point as we do have both CO2 and water vapor.

If you will refer to the site I referenced you will find supporting data and actual scientists who generated the data rather than just theorists. Here it is again:

http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

Jestak: You might want to take

a look at the link I posted above.

"Underwater volcanic activity in the Arctic Ocean
far stronger than anyone ever imagined!"

Couldn't possibly be that volcanic activity in the Artic Ocean might just account for the melting of the artic ice??


Warming Schmarming
I recently recieved notification from the California Air Resources Board (CARB) that they will soon be imposing a fee (about $800 per year) on a piece of portable equipment that I own that is powered by a diesel engine. This is a direct result of our "green" Governor's anti- global warming policies

I KNOW what all this global warming alarmism is really all about. It's about lazy-a**, greedy, powerhungry bureaucrats who are always looking for a new excuse to steal my money and use it to line their own pockets.
Unfortunately there are millions of liberal Americans who can't think analytically for themselves and rely on the media and the Government to do their thinking for them. They don't seem to understand that the unintended consequences of governmental regulation and taxation cause far more serious damage than the "crisis" that they were so worried about in the first place.

Look, people. The Earth has been around for over 4 billion years. There MUST be some self-correcting mechanisms at play or natural disasters would have led to destruction of the atmosphere many times over. Just think of all the cataclysmic eruptions, fires, meteor storms, etc. that have wreaked havoc on our planet over the eons and yet somehow, despite it all, we look around us and we see the glorious, beautiful, abundant landscape that we call home.

Earth and it's natural processes CREATED all the fossil fuels. All that carbon that's now underground came from somewhere, didn't it? Well, reason tells me that it was probably absorbed from the atmosphere by plants. And now what? We humans are going to pull it up and put it back in the atmosphere where it came from. I think the Earth can handle it.

But cheer up all you socialists. The good news is that there is a limited amount of fossil fuel and we will eventually run out! That ought to make you happy.

Consistency would be nice!
Al Gore, Sentido, Lilly, Phizo -- let's have some consistency. You are so certain that human habitation is causing global warming. Okaydokey!

Sell your car. Immediately! I want to see you on public transportation Monday morning. No more car ride, period! Surely that won't be a hardship if it stops GW.

Turn the heat or ac in your house off. No more indoor climate control for you. Period! Surely you don't happen to live in a climate where it gets above 90 degrees in the summer or below 50 in the winter.

Turn off all electric items in your home. Somewhere a power plant is producing pollution so you can use all those gadgets. No more! Period!

Never buy another manmade anything again. It costs energy to produce and transport, so from now on you'll have to grow your own cotton and wool and spin it (with a human powered wheel) yourself.

Of course Al will have to sell the jet and fly with the rest of us, though in reality, if you're serious about saving the planet, you should stop using airplanes and public transportation altogether. You can get where you need to go strictly on foot or by bicycle. Of course, the ties on a bike are made of petroleum products and cost energy to produce and transport, so maybe you should just walk.

Okay? Are you ready to be consistent? Because until you start living by your own ideals and figuring out what a roll-back to the energy usage levels of the 1930s will mean to you personally, you really can't expect the rest of us to sign on to live that way.

If we're really planned to stop GW in its tracks, it's going to take that sort of lifestyle change.

Of course, since it's a natural cyclical phenomenon, our doing that won't make a bit of difference, but it'll be fun to watch you'all try to live like my grandparents once did.

Good luck with that!

John Galt
How can a TAX save the World from a cyclic climate change?
________________________________________

Anyone who thinks this is just John's problem and a few more like him should watch what happens to the salami at a Deli.
That is the way they do it.
One slice at a time.
These kind of taxes spread by increments.
Your slice is coming!
The time to protest is NOW!

Anne
"Underwater volcanic activity in the Arctic Ocean
far stronger than anyone ever imagined!
by Ned Stafford"

Thank you for the link. It is indeed interesting. In fact volcanic activity all along the mid-ocean ridges (and there are thousands of miles of them)contribute huge amounts of both CO2 and heat that may affect the "El Ninos" that in turn affect our weather, especially in the western US. Also, because volcanic activity is intermitant and we are unable to monitor underwater activity very closely, we really don't know how much of an effect it has. It may be a major factor.


Jestak
Thanks for the link. I read this one also. Since we are talking about global warming as opposed to an "ice age scenario", it doesn't really matter that water is a feedback as opposed to a forcing greenhouse gas. And yes, I do know the difference, thank you very much. It would be very important if we were talking about cooling, I agree. It would also be important in GW were it not for the influence of storms it produces.

I still have not seen your comments re: the link I gave you. Where do you see the error in it?

Vic, did you notice......
that Jestak didn't answer your question? Like all good Leftists, he has no soltuions, just complaints, and complaints and complaints.

The ultimate indictment...
...of the anthropogenic global warming promoters is that they feel the need to silence those who disagree -- just as Miss Saunders has noted.

Among lawyers, the old gag runs: When the facts are against you, pound the law; when the law is against you, pound the facts. When both are against you, pound the table. The promoters of anthropogenic global warming have been pounding the table for quite some time. That both the facts (historical temperature measurements) and the law (the failure of all the models even to "hindcast" correctly) are against them is the only reasonable inference.

In 1973 NEWSWEEK was Warning of COOLING!
In 1973, NEWSWEEK was concerned about Global COOLING, and one proposed "solution" was to spread soot over the poles to HELP MELT them. A decade later the Left had totally flip-flopped.

When the famous people trying to scare us stop flying in private jets and use only 4 times the average amount of energy for their houses rather than 20 times, THEN I'll pay more attention to them.

green
I'm going green on ST. Patricks day with a salute to AL's little HOAXEES.

Grover91506
I have never got any answers to that question from the pushers of this scam. Nor have I got answers to the question of "which tax will you reduce to make the scam tax neutral".

When you see that you see what the real nature of the scam is.

NASA Climate Data
May still be incorrect due to how the data is collected.

The weather stations used to collect temperature data are suppose to be located away from man made heat sources and structures to prevent false readings.

Check out http://www.surfacestations.org/ to see where the stations have been found.

The hot readings which some of the staions are providing are due to them being too close to man made stuctures or heat sources. Those bad weather station locations bias temperature measurements upwards.

The biased measurments are calcualted into the GISS database which are then used by people like Michael Mann to create charts that are used by people like Al Gore to suport their theory ofman made global warming/climate change doom.

Jestak
"Wally, the RealClimate article by Gavin Schmidt which I pointed you to is, in fact, a direct refutation of the verizon.net link you gave above"

WELL, actually it doesn't do that at all. If you will review the data in my 8/11/07 12:19 post, you will see that I used the higher number (the same as in Schmidt's article) for the anthropogenic contribution to CO2. That's why I gave a range of anthropogenic contribution to total greenhouse gas of .11% (the authors) to .79% (my estimate). That is still only 79 one hundredths of one percent!

In addition Schmidts article estimates water vapor (by mass) to be only .3% of the atmosphere but ignores the fact that at lower to mid
lattitudes it is often ten times that value AND THAT'S WHERE THE HEAT IS! I pointed out previously that water vapor as a greenhouse gas insignificant at the poles, but SO WHAT? The Earth does not radiate heat energy uniformly from its entire surface as he seems to assume.

He admits that water vapor is a positive feedback but seems to assume that because that doesn't result in runaway temperatures it is unimportant (even though he alludes to the negative feedback weather provides). His contention that if there were no CO2, water vapor would all precipitate out and is thus unimportant, is a gratuitous assumption with no basis in fact and is probably totally untrue.

YOU STILL HAVN'T TOLD ME WHERE I AM WRONG. Just providing a link that you probably don't even understand doesn't do it.

Jestak
ONE MORE THING!

The proof of the pudding....

If you will just look at the diurnal temperature range (24 hour high and low temp) for any mid latitude location that sometimes is very dry and sometimes very humid, you will see that dramatic effect of humidity.

I was recently at Lake Powell when the daytime temp. was in excess of 100 deg. F but by 6 AM was down to the low 60s. Compare that to Atlanta!

Jestak
Correction: "is a gratuitous assumption with no basis in fact and is probably totally untrue."

Meant to say gratuitous ASSERTION. But it is nevertheless an assumption.

The "Warmies" are NOT going to be happy!
http://www.kxmb.com/News/Nation/151418.asp

NASA Drastically Revises Global Temperature Numbers


http://www..com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21920043-27197,00.html

Not only do humans not dominate Earth's current temperature.......

What if the greenies are wrong?
Back in the 70s, I attended a lecture whose purpose was to frighten us about the coming ice age. Living in a place where glaciers had been 1,000s of feet thick at one time, he predicted that the first thing to happen would be for the flow of the Gulf Steam would flow into the Artic Ocean and melt the sea ice. The first to freeze over would be Western Europe and around the globe it would go. And with the accumulation of ice, down would go the sea level, leaving current sea ports high and dry.

Well, the ice is thinning and now the learned fright mongers are crying "global warming." Could it be that the exhausts from SUVs and bovine flatulance are in fact putting off the beginning of the next ice age?

Could it be that the same source of energy that is melting Mars ice caps is melting ours?

If it is the sun that is the source of this problem, then let's send Al Gore and all these big city mayors on an expedition to the sun with instructions to turn down the thermostat.

Barry Tumwater: What if.....

the greenies are wrong?

They ARE wrong! And it won't be long before algore's gloBULL warming will be exposed for the hoax that it is!



"In Search Of"
I don't know of the Newsweek article, but there is an old In Search Of (with Leonard Nemoy) on global cooling from 1977 running around the channels. The years from the '40s (even with the huge expenditure of petroleum products in WW II) thru the '70s was the coolest part of the 20th C. Actually, the warmest temps. of the 20th C. were in the early decades. NYC had a summer in the '20s with temps in the 120s. Horses keeled over and died in the streets. Thank heavens that isn't happening now. Al Gore would fly in on his private jet and be at my house disinstalling my AC and dehumidifiers.


Baloney
No one is questioning "CLIMATE CHANGE". Everyone with half a brain is questioning "GLOBAL WARMING caused by man." The words Climate Change have been substituted for Global Warming because we can see climate change.

. . . "which for the last two decades has created a paralyzing fog of doubt around climate change." No one has created any fog execpt Al Gore and the enviromerntal extremeist. The earth has warmed and cooled over it's history. It continues to do it and man couldn't affect it if he wanted to. It is ANOTHER example of the aggorgance of the liberals to think they can change the weather.

Mark Twain said "everyone complains about the weather buy no one does anything about it." Now the liberals think they can do something about it. The dummys!!!

Thanks, VIC
it was 1978. Luckily, so far this summer, the East Coast where most wild news reports originate has had a very average summer. Right now we're having nights in the 60s and haven't (yet) experienced a real drought-driven heat-spell very typical of August (the dog days).

Actually, the desperate GW'ers should know that even during ice ages sometimes temperatures reached the tropical. So that it could have happened that some poor woolly mammoth got caught sweltering on the shores of today's Morristown, NJ, Great Swamp (former glacial great lake), even as ice bergs shown in the beating sun off the ocast of what is NY City today.

Warmies waiting for a hurricane?
How many hysterical Warmies are eagerly waiting for a major hurricane this season so they can jump up and down and scream "see, see hurricane = global warming"?
I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of them are hoping for a Katrina level disaster in hopes of being "proved" right.

Look at Hawaii
Have you heard/seen the first big-level hurrican is in the Pac., so that now daily we have reports of its approach to the islands there? Have we ever had a week's preoccupation on the mainland with a storm threatening Hawaii?

I'm not denigrating Hawaii, and I hope the storm does not hit and/or devastate populated areas, but the weather people have been yammering since Easter that this would be a particularly terrible storm season (yadda yadda: last summer's exact prediction) with nearly 20 named hurricanes and maybe 5-7 level 3 or more in power.

So far, none have appeared. And now they have lowered the prediction to named storms around 10 and 3-5 being really dangerous. As I live near the Atlantic, I know hurricanes don't usually show until Sept., and we could still have a bad year. But real hurricane followers claim the storms follow cyclical patterns of 40-50 years, and if we do exp. more forceful hurricanes, the cause is the cycle, not GW.
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