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Sunday, July 22, 2007
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Free the Border Patrol Two
by Debra J. Saunders
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When President Bush commuted the sentence of Scooter Libby -- the former top aide to Veep Dick Cheney convicted for perjury and obstructing justice in a federal probe on the leak of the identity of a CIA operative -- he explained that he respected "the jury's verdict, but I have concluded that the prison sentence given to Mr. Libby is excessive." Bush commuted Libby's 30-month prison sentence, but allowed a $250,000 fine and two years of probation to stand. By that standard, Bush also should commute the sentences of former Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean.

Last year, the agents were sentenced to 11 years and 12 years, respectively, for shooting at and wounding a fleeing suspect who was smuggling 743 pounds of marijuana over the border in 2005, covering up the shooting and denying the smuggler of his rights. On Tuesday, the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee held a fact-finding hearing on their case. On Wednesday, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., and Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, sent a letter to Bush that said the agents' sentences were "excessive and they deserve the immediate exercise of your executive clemency powers."

Bush should heed their advice and commute these sentences. Ramos, 37, and Compean, 28, are not criminals. I've read the trial transcript. At worst, it shows two agents who made a bad split-second decision -- then wrongly covered it up because they realized they were wrong to fire their guns toward the fleeing Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, hitting him in the buttocks.

At best, it shows, as the defense credibly argued, that the two agents thought Aldrete -- who is now suing the federal government for $5 million -- was armed. They also thought the smuggler (who walked away after the shooting and fled the scene in a car that picked him up) was uninjured. So they decided not to report the shooting.

Feinstein wondered why authorities did not punish the agents administratively -- maybe fire them -- and why prosecutors failed to force Aldrete to name more drug-ring associates. She also asked why the transactional immunity offered to Aldrete did not require him to waive his civil lawsuit.

The agents' case has been made stronger by the fact that Aldrete was implicated in a second marijuana (753 pounds this time) smuggling while he had documents -- thanks to his immunity deal -- that allowed him to cross the border freely. Feinstein said she had a hard time understanding why someone known to have trafficked "in large amounts of narcotics" was "free to come and go from the United States." U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton testified that the document deal was "very regrettable."

The episode certainly undermines Aldrete's credibility.

Another issue: The feds' decision to charge the agents for committing a crime with a firearm -- a 924(c) violation -- meant a 10-year mandatory minimum sentence on that one charge alone. Hence the very harsh sentences for men who served their country in the military and at the border.

Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., a former U.S. attorney, observed that the federal firearms law "is designed to deal with criminals who carry firearms in the commission of felonies and crimes of violence." Whereas, "These officers came to work with no criminal intent, no mindset to commit any crime."

Asked Wednesday whether Bush will grant clemency, White House spokesman Tony Snow explained that the Libby commutation is special because there are disputes in legal circles about Libby's sentence. Well, there are disputes as to whether the federal firearms charge should have been used against law enforcement officers who are required to carry guns to do their jobs and did not premeditate shooting a fleeing drug smuggler.

Snow also noted that the Libby pardon let stand the "significant punishment" of probation and a six-figure fine. Try this for "significant punishment": Ramos and Compean have spent six months in prison -- that's no picnic in that they are serving time among the very types of criminals they once helped put away.

In February, Latino gang members attacked Ramos in Yazoo City Federal Correctional Complex in Mississippi. Since then, officials have had to put both men -- Compean is in a different prison -- in solitary confinement for their protection.

If Ramos and Compean were crooked agents, they would deserve hard time. But at worst, they fired their guns in the heat of pursuit, when they should not have.

If Bush wants to show Americans that he stands for true justice -- and not justice for his inner circle only -- he should set Ramos and Compean free.

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Fienstein
Amazing that President Bush allows himself to be outflanked by Diane Feinstein to his right! This would be a no-brainer for Ronaldus the Great. What a loser Bush is. Particularly in light of the commutation of insider Louis Libby.

Does anyone in this White House realize how this looks to the peasants out here in the trenches!




Common Sense
This article illustrates why it is nonsense to allow judges and lawyers alone to make these kind of decisions. Manty judges and lawyers seem to be bereft of any common sense in legal matters.

A quick glance at the case proves this point. A drug smuggler is accosted by federal agents on the border (2 crimes - illegal entry and drugs), refuses to heed agents lawful request too stop, runs away, gets shot in buttocks (not life threatening), is offerred immunity and documents to cross the border legally to testify against federal agents, gets busted a second time for attempting to bring over 700 pounds of marijuana into the US, and is suing the IS govt for 5 million dollars while the federal agents are in prison for 10 and 11 years, convicted on a law meant to stop criminals from carrying weapons in committing felony crimes. The govt seems more interested in protecting the "rights" of a foreign criminal than its own federal agents.
No wonder the USA "criminal justice system" is such a Laughingstock!

1. Immediately release the federal agents.
2. Remove Sutton from his current position (unqualified) and put him in the same place on the border that Ramos and Compean patrolled.
3. Fire judge and prosecutor(s)in case.
4. Remove immunity from foreign criminal and arrest him on the second criminal offense.
5. Pardon Ramos and Compean & re-instate them (if they are willing to work for govt again)).
7. Pay their back salaries (since they stopped being paid by the govt).
8. DO NOT DO SOMETHING like this again!


Common Sense II
CORRECTION: in prison for 11 and 12 years.

It SHOULD BE DONE!
Heck, it should have BEEN DONE already.

But, bush has said he will NOT mess with his 'good friend' the prosecutor (sutton's) work on this.
bush will be out of commission for a while soon, maybe VP Cheney has the stones to do what is right in this case? Can you hear us now, Cheney?

Amnesty
Amnesty for Ramos and Campeon!

Forgive Me!
As one who voted twice for this disgusting human being known as President Bush, I must ask for forgiveness for the thoughts which come to my mind concerning this pathetic, poor excuse for a human being. I also seek forgiveness for having been a part of electing the most tyrannical government ever to darken the halls of the White House, and Congress.

If the people in this country do not quickly move to find a way to remove this traitor from office, we are doomed to experience a total loss of the Constitutional freedoms we have had since the founders signed it. It is rapidly going down in flames, and we seem to be letting it happen.

Libs are ...
just pissed 'cause they had dibs on some of that grass. You can always depend on rope smokers to call evil good and good evil. It's just part of the sophisticated Hollywood mystique they like to project.

Coolnout
We all know why these men were prosecuted: because they are Border Patrol agents.

Sutton was appointed by Bush, as was the judge. Both of these men are in El Paso for a reason: to advance the NAU.

DHS employees have now admitted to lying to Congress about the case, something that should at least spark a review of the convictions.

PS: The agents aren't "murderous" as they killed no one. However, they ought to be chastised for skipping range time. Or maybe they need higher-powered weapons, like a Mini 30.


No Coverup

I can't see where it is a cover-up if you have nine officers - including supervisors - talking about the shoot and picking up shell casings with you. Sutton/Satan calls them "co-conspirators". I guess anything is a conspiracy if you think about it hard enough. There was no crime scene, therefore how can a crime have taken place?

And even if there WAS a cover-up, they've been in prison six months in solitary and Ramos was beaten severely and has lost forty pounds. Time served already! Let em out.

Oh, and you Liberal Daily Kos readers who think that these are "rogue cops" are the very ones that are sipping the Republican Kool-aid! Hello? Republican President, Republican prosecutor, Republican DOJ?! What maroons. Read the trial transcript like I have and then make some intelligent points.

a question for all
Can any of you think of a time when a federal prosecuter went on a nation-wide tour to explain a conviction?

I know that they often explain details of cases to the press, but Sutton has been on several talk shows trying to cover his a**. Laura Ingram sure ripped him a new one last Friday.

Sutton? Nifong? What's the difference? Oh yeah! The Duke players had the money to defend themselves.

BUSH PUT THEM THERE
Hello? Bush was responsible for putting the border patrol agents in prison. He dierected and approved the prosecution. Bush WANTS an open border. He used the prosecution to tell border patrolmen not to interfere with Mexicans and drug smugglers.

Bush appointed an "Anchor Baby" for Attorney Geneeral specifically to dismantle border prtotection. Bush worked through Gonzales to direct the prosecution of two agents as an example to the rest, "DOn't protect the border"

Bush has sold out to Mexian moffia, drug money, and "free trade" open borders. Instead of a wall he promised the President of Mexico he would build a wide open freeway. He hasn't pardoned them because he intended to put them in prisonfor doing the job he doesn't want done.

Bush, and Gonzales, should be impeached for malfeasance of office.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at; http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

One item left out
valhalla writes: Sunday, July, 22, 2007 12:45 AM

1. Immediately release the federal agents.
2. Remove Sutton from his current position (unqualified) and put him in the same place on the border that Ramos and Compean patrolled.
3. Fire judge and prosecutor(s)in case.
4. Remove immunity from foreign criminal and arrest him on the second criminal offense.
5. Pardon Ramos and Compean & re-instate them (if they are willing to work for govt again)).
7. Pay their back salaries (since they stopped being paid by the govt).
8. DO NOT DO SOMETHING like this again!

You left out:
9. Impeach Bush and Gonzales for malfeasance of office, for deliberatly preventing border security.



Judicial Watch
has a hearing on Monday on their FOIA action to release communications between the Mexican Government and the US Government in this and the Gilmer Hernandez case. The government has been stonewalling it since April. I hope they get what they need.

Jorge's Freinds
Jorge told a town hall forum the other day that Juan Sutton was his "good friend". That's Bushie Code for Juan is one of the family toadies. There will be no commutation or pardon coming from Jorge de la Shrub.

Since there seems to be a lot of common ground on this issue among both Conservatives and liberals, perhaps Congress should get involved. Congress doesn't have the power to commute or pardon, but they control the purse of those who do. I would suggest that Congress use the appropriations function to secure their release and to force the removal of Juan and the judge, Kathleen Cardone. So, specifically prohibit any funds being spent to maintain the incarceration of Ramos, Compean and Hernandez; also prohibit any funds to be spent on the office of US Attorney for West Texas while Sutton holds that office (and would include no money for salaries, office expenses, travel, etc.); finally prohibit funds for the operation of Kathleen Cardone's court in the same manner. I suspect that they would resign if they can't get paid.

Gilmer Hernandez
Was convicted in Kathleen Cardone's/Juan
Sutton's kangaroo court after the mexican consulate demanded it. Remember, he shot at a van full of illegal aliens trying to run him down. A real law enforcement agency, the Texas Rangers, investigated and cleared Mr. Hernandez.

Roberto
From what I heard,

the "victims" family claims that he ALWAYS carried a gun.

the BP agents claim that the "victim" turned towards them as he fled. The gun shot wound is consistent with this testimony (the bullet entered the side of the buttocks and lodged in the front opposite).

DHS employees lied to Congress about this case. Something Sutton doesn't deny. In fact, on Ingram's show, Sutton very forcefully denied responsibility for what some "bureaucrats" do in DC. Even though those same "bureaucrats" have been covering his a** since this whole thing started.

the jury was NOT told that Sutton's star witness was caught DURING the trial for trying to smuggle more drugs into the US. Aldrete, Sutton's star witness, was not only compromised, but SEVERELY compromised. Sutton didn't deny this either.

I've left out many of the other problems that were brought up in that interview, but let's start with these. High water mark? Boy, I'll say. The only thing missing is a hangin' tree.

Sutton is a liar and you are delusional.


We must also remember
Hernandez. He was that sheriff's deputy that Sutton prosecuted. He fired at the tires of an SUV that was full of illegals. The driver tried to run him down, and he fired at the tires as they tried to escape. There was a ricochet , that only slightly wounded one of the illegals.

He has been in jail longer that Ramos and Campion. All of them were prosecuted unjustly!! All prosecutions were actually headed by the Mexican government.

Big Dogg: You're SUCH a FOOL!

Maybe Republicans think Scapegoat Scooter and Compean and Ramos got a bad trial.


Out of control...
How many years ago was the Rodney King beating, which led to the LA riots? The police were out of control in the beating and downright cowards during the riots.

10 years ago in my city, 4 cops with guns drawn executed a passed out gang banger because she jumped when her car window was broken and made a suspicious move to a gun. I believe she was shot 27 times. Good shooting by our protectors, but clearly the cops were out of control. Our cops were let off
the hook on murder charges, but they were fired.

And now the border patrol... The only difference in these cases is that the Border Patrol agents got the punishment they deserved.

Law enforcement has the immediate power of life and death. When they put on a gun, I hold them to a higher standard. Yes, they have a tough job, but no one forced them to put on the badge and pick up the gun. That is something they volunteered to to and, unlike the military, they can quit at anytime if the job is too rough.


dollface
I didn't mean to post the same post as you did. It must have come up, while I was typing. Sorry.

Robert
I'd pop you myself if I had the chance.

Look, do your homework. If this story didn't have legs it would have died long ago. Nifong's story didn't hold water because it was crap. Sutton's is about as strong as cheescloth. Listen to his Senate testimony, for cryin' out loud! He switched stories three times in less than a minute. Can't trust him.

If you haters despise law enforcement so much, then I suggest you try and live without.

Bleeding Heart Liberal ...
very typical talk from a person who has probably faced no danger greater than a paper cut. Not even worth a comment beyond that observation.

Flag as Idiots
All you losers who refuse to see the light on this case will be flagged.

Later.

The Plumber: If BHL and some of the

other "lunatic laftists" bothered to do even a little research, they'd know that what little Johnny Sutton claims is NOT exactly the whole truth.

And, of course, it IS possible (and does happen) that not all the evidence is actually presented to the jury!

There were BP supervisors on the scene when this happened, and since they were the superior officers, it was up to them to file anything should it be warrented....WHICH IT WASN'T!

Do the libs care about THAT? Of COURSE NOT!

But, did you notice that more care was taken, and more media coverage given to "protecting" Paris Hilton in the country jail, than was given or covered when Ramos got severely beaten within hours of him being incarcerated?







This ain't Law and Order
The people who listen to J. Sutton and swallow his logic are the same people who expect everything to be like it is on "Boston Legal" or whatever lawyering show people are watching these days.

Six months in prison...no actual evidence (other than statistics that Sutton throws at you and the drug dealer's testimony) that he was shot by THESE BP agents. No evidence tying him to being in that place in that time other than the VAN, yet this guy was given immunity. No evidence that the bullet came from Ramos' gun, according to DEA memos! Research, you lazy people, research. If you care about your country at all...

You kool-aid drinkers made me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

PeskyPurple: We've all pretty much

thought the same thing about roberto. Ugh!

He's YET to post anything that was logical or reasonable.

But, we've found that if we just IGNORE him, and scroll right by his posts, he'll eventually go away and annoy posters on a different post.

Of course, then those posters will have to ignore him, and scroll right by his nonsense, and so it goes.


I live just
Minutes from the Rio in Brownsville on grandaddys ranch. My family has owned this land for a long time. The fence is fixin to cut us off from water so we are being a bit creative. I see men like Campeon every day at the Circle K getting breakfast tacos before work and hoping they will get home at night to their families. The braceros and smugglers are human scum. They come across the land at night leaving devastation in their wake. I have personally found 2 bodies, though it has been a while. These men, our Border Patrol, deserve all the help we can give them. Not all Mexicans are bad, hell, I"m in Matamoros all the time. My sancha is there. But border towns are by their very definition lawless places. Drugs every where.
I have called Conyers to try to help. To the families---------hang in there. Some of us care.

Bush should also...
...fire Johnny Sutton. He seems to be about one notch short of a buffoon.

Jamie: Know exactly where you're talking

about. Been in that area a few times, So. Padre Is., Port Isabella, Matamoros, etc. But it was many years ago, so I'm sure I can't imagine what it's like there now.

There is no question that our Border Patrol deserve all the help we can give them.

People seem to forget that our BP Agents are in a WAR, and the illegals have weapons, and they count on the fact that our BP Agents can't easily defend themselves...

Talk about ROEs!!!



I live in Los Angeles
I live in Los Angeles, and work for the LAPD.
It's one of man California cities that is ground zero for how destructive illegal immigration has been to our infrastructure.
Law enforcement agencies are getting their teeth pulled out and their ability to interact with each other compromised.
This is EXACTLY ripe territory for terrorists.
But gangs ARE terrorists. And have made America's streets unsafe for decades.
The President dared to shake a finger at us on the issue of these Border Patrol agents saying "we have to adhere to the rule of law.", while enabling law breaking illegal aliens as if THEY are model citizens.

Ronald Reagan set things in motion with the amnesty in 1986, without enforcement in place to keep MORE illegal aliens out.
One end of the deal wasn't help up.
And now they are waving ANOTHER amnesty in our faces, again, with no aspects of further enforcement in place.
And Bush is annoyed with US, because we don't trust him?!

It's not the police out of control, even the bad shootings that occurred haven't outnumbered how many cops have been murdered by illegal aliens.
Let alone a casualty list of illegal alien infused GANGS that kill thousands in numbers to rival the war in Iraq.
In fact, combat doctors get their training in inner city hospitals, what does THAT tell you?

As for bleeding heart liberal, Clifford is telling you right.
Unless you're willing to come to the firefight, shut up!

When you're in trouble, who ELSE you going to call, and who ELSE do you think will show up?

All the King's men, are incompentent loyalists, leaving this country more vulnerable than ever. Inexcusable post 9/11. AND when it's so patently obvious that our leader doesn't care about protecting us, those with designs on killing Americans, for whatever reason-know we don't know where they are, who they are....or that we can't and won't fight back.

The President has a bunker all set so he won't have to deal with what's really going on.
I don't know what it's going to take.
If it's a bullet from an illegal gang member that'll make this country wake up. So be it.
Because when it happens to innocent civilians or peace officers, it's clear the President and his government couldn't care less.


BOOSCHY MOVES
how else can he shown that he cares more about mehiko than Americans?

RELEASE THEM NOW!!!! Imprison both perps: avilla and sutton!!!

Anne ...
nope Miss Anne ... we want Robert and the crew to keep on posting. For too long we've just been talking to one another and going Tsk! Tsk!
Kind of like Christians not talking to Jews and just figuring religious history started with JC.
Or Calvinists not talking to Catholics ...
We aren't going to convert Robert or Lilly ...
but we need someone to prod us into remembering why through the mystic chords of time we think as we do.
You may not be in the fight ... but you will either be victim or victor depending on the outcome.

Why the agents are guilty.
If these men are innocent, why did they not report the perp had a gun until AFTER they got arrested, nearly a MONTH after the incident occured?

Why would they remove their own shell casings from the scene if the perp had a gun?

Simple: they KNEW the perp was unarmed, they shot him, and then they tried to cover their tracks.

Their stories hold no water.

du: Excellent post! Thank you.

It occured to me to equate our law enforcement with our troops, but I was afraid that was going a bit to far from someone like myself... not being in the 'middle' of any of it, and no real credibility with which to make the statement.

But, I'm glad YOU did... with real credibility.

"...combat doctors get their training in inner city hospitals, what does THAT tell you?"

That pretty much tells me all I need to know! And it confirms exactly what I've suspected for a long time.

And, btw, du, keep posting. Keep us informed. We depend of posters like yourself to let us know what's going on when the MSM won't.




Phil: Uh, that was Sutton version of

the agent's story... NOT the agents!

Do some research and don't just accept what you think you want to believe. Ugh!

Did you know that there were BP supervisors on the scene? Probably not!

Did you know that according to the "rules" it's the responsibility of the superior agent, in this case the supervisor, to submit the report. But it wasn't done because it didn't happen as Sutton claims, and there was NO NEED to submit a report. No, you probably didn't know that either.

Did you know that the supervisors were warned that if they spoke out, they'd be fired? No, I doubt you knew that either!

It's usually a good thing to ask questions (such as yours) AFTER you've done some reseach. Check out WorldNetDaily... There is a lot of information there that you'll not find in the MSM.




Never mind ALL the facts
A jury unanimously found these agents guilty. Posters here have the luxury of ignoring that and screeching for their verdict to be overturned. A president on the other hand, probably needs to be a bit more circumspect.
Oh wait, I forgot...the president is all about putting the rule of law and our government asunder, and pardoning 2 agents would get in the way of his evil plot. Plus, everything IS his fault.
Some of you are over the top.



Are they guilty?
So Anne, are you saying these agents did not break the law, and that they did not attempt to cover it up? I’m all for nailing these human scum drug runners, but from what I’ve read these agents broke the law. Are you suggesting that is not the case?

Law v Justice
“It is not honorable to take mere legal advantage, when it happens to be contrary to justice.”—Thomas Jefferson

If these men are innocent...?
The interview with Sutton in the Senate Chambers revealed much of Sutton's character. He cites rule of law repeatedly and also his experience, in terms of his many times in the courtroom. He also acts like a guy who is lying with the facts... Repeatedly citing facts of the case which bolstered his prosecution, ignoring facts which have been discovered by the public after the fact, but which were known to him at the time.

So, technically the agents committed a crime as the law is interpreted by Sutton and the judge in the case. Logically, though, we all would like to think that a more sensible application of the law would have prevailed.

Personally, I think the old adage; "Follow the money." applies here. Logic would tend to indicate that Sutton and the judge are on the take, receiving money from the Mexican gangs, and hiding it in off - shore accounts. They should be investigated as thoroughly as possible by the FBI. There is no logical reason for the treatment of these agents in this case, unless Sutton is being run by the Mexicans.

but which were known to him at the time
"but which were known to him at the time." - How do you know that, Mr Difar?

Anne...worldnetdaily?
Are you joking? That is your source of information on this case?

No wonder you are so outraged by its outcome. ROFL.

Absurdity of it All
Free and pardon Ramos and Compean, period.

Absurdity of it All
"Free and pardon Ramos and Compean, period." - Free them based on what, Onceamarine?

Losers Part Duh

The jury recanted their conviction based on other evidence not presented at trial.

No, Minnesotan, I do not believe these guys are even one iota guilty of anything. If you choose to look the other way when law enforcement is the victim of political persecution, then I feel sorry for you.


Minnesotan: "Are you suggesting that is

NOT the case?" Yup!

I am absolutely suggesting that there is MUCH more to the situation that Sutton allowed into the court...

Why would you say this, you ask? Well, because I've done more than a fair amount of reading and listening, and followed up as best a regular ol' civilian could, and as I commented above, there have been BP supervisors who have been threatened with losing their jobs if the stepped forward to contratict Sutton's story...etc.

Kind of like Nifong and the Duke lax players... remember the term "exculpatory evidence?" If we just listened to what Nifong told the press, we'd have all thought those guys were guilty... Ummm?

Gee, you must be saying to yourself, maybe there IS more to this situation than I was aware of. And, if it's important to you, then you also might be saying to yourself, gee, maybe I ought to be doing some actual research in learn more than what the MSM is willing to share with me.

I say, that's a darned good idea! :-)




The fact of the matter is
These guys WILL go free sooner rather than later, and I will sleep better at night knowing that. I would sleep better still if Sutton and Davila were put in prison in their stead. That would be pleasant.

Phil: You are a FLAMING FOOL!

YES, WND!!!! It is an excellent site, and a excellent starting point if one is really interested in doing some research.

So, you don't agree with my point, so you attack ONE SOURCE... Remove your head from wherever you've placed it, and wake up to the sunlight!

No, I'm not joking... YOU are the JOKE!

Bye! :-)



Free these men NOW!
Anne - you compared this to the Duke situation and I wholeheartedly agree!

My fervent wish is that Mr. Sutton will be "nifonged" SOONER than later!

Cliff: Re: 12:24PM Post


I agree with you in theory. However, it does no good to have someone who simply posts nonsense.

What we would hope for are those who have differing views, but who can be reasonable, logical, and able to discuss and debate without being condescending and petulant.

Roberto is a real life "Walter Mitty" and posts as such. Such a waste.



Ramos and Compean Are Guilty
Under cover of Law, these guys wrecklessly used deadly force and covered their tracks. Such actions can never be tolerated, in war, on the streets of our cities nor on our borders.

Maybe President Bush will commute their sentenses, maybe not. The Constitution gives him that authority without qualification:

"...the shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment"

So, at least we know that Ramos and Compean are eligible for a Prsidential Reprieve or Pardon. Okay with me.

Minnesotan: Free them based on what?

Do some of your own research!

Do some reading!

Use the internet!

There's this thing called "google."

It's a great research too!

And then come back with some informed opinion and/or facts with which to actually debate and discuss the topic.


Mac Moore:"Ramos and Compean Are Guilty"

And, you know that because they were found guilty by a jury of their peers?

Huh! Okay.

Did you know that just a few weeks ago the Innocence Project had their 200th prisoner released because they'd been WRONGLY found guilty by a jury of their peers?

Just thought you might like something to think about!






BORDER AGENTS
MacMoore
It's so easy to condemn people who use their weapons when faced with a critical and perhaps life and death situation while you are sitting in the comfort of your home facing a computer. In battle the hardest thing to do, once the action starts, is to get men to STOP firing. Just look at one of the WWII war documentaries of the navy gunners shooting at the Kamikaze planes. You will see planes totally destroyed at height and bullets are following the falling plane to the sea. FYI, each tracer bullet you see represents 5 bullets. We are all terrified.

You Be a BP Agent

Those who think these guys are guilty as sin, you go ahead and join up with the BP. I hear they are hiring. Wonder why...because they keep locking up their better agents, perchance???!

What to do with Ramos and Compean
Don't give these agents a commutation. Here's what you give them:

- A full pardon (not just a shorter sentence, absolve them of any and all wrongdoing)
- Pin the Medal of Freedom on each of them, the highest honor which can be bestowed upon a civilian, in recognition of outstanding service to their country
- Give our border patrol agents a parade through downtown Washington D.C. and invite the press

Stoic Patriot: Actually, we don't want

to "pardon" them because that still leaves them "guilty" of the so-called crime, and just "excuses" them from paying their debt... ie: prison time.

They need to be EXONERATED, which would clear them of guilt or blame.





You all along with this reporter
are missing a big part of this puzzle. They did not commit any crime period. The DHS stated in hearings that they lied and covered up the truth that, there were supevisors present after the incident and it was they who decided to not report the gun incident. That means according to the DHS they did exactly as they should have but Sutton and DHS worked together to keep that quiet. Also note that the first doctor that the criminal was take too stated that the agents story of how he was running and pointing back over his should was correct as the bullet entered his left buttocks and settled under the skin of his right hip. The doctor stated this is consistent with someone running slightly sideways looking back. And the criminals grandmother also stated that he always carried a gun. This reporter and others posting here dont have the whole story. You can get it at CFIF (Center for Individual Freedom) in their archives. These agents followed the letter of the law and Sutton and the DHS hid those facts and made 3 other agents testify against them because they were susposedly there. 1 quit and 2 got fired shortly after.

If they had done anything criminal I would say they deserved what they got. But I have followed this story from the beginning and they got shafted. The President had agreements between him and Mexico and had stated to them that he would basically not stop the illegal inflow so he made and example out of these agents and he will not now reverse that and renig on his Mexican promiss. He wants to be the Mexican hero of illegals.

Coolnout
Obviously you have never researched this. Just reading the article above does not qualify you to make an uninformed, idiotic mindless statment as you did. Read my previous post about the DHS and Sutton conspiring to hide the truth that shows them innocent and then research it at CFIF. Then you may be qualified to make a statment.

Stormy: How right you are!

The term "exculpatory evidence" should be very familiar to every conscious individual in the country. They wouldn't even have to be very intelligent or literate... just conscious.

AND, only a limited individual wouldn't be aware that there was much more to this travisty than was published in the MSM...


Hellooooo, Coolnout, try doing some research. Check out WND for starters, or just use that thing on the internet called "google."


Anne
Agreed. But one thing that bothers me is that these reporters who are writing these stories such as Saunders in this one, do not seem to do any more research then some of the uninformed bloggers here. Two articles on this in the last three days by two different TH reproters and they seem to miss the DHS and Sutton cover up and go with what's been reported to the MSM. Hell people who watch Lou Dobbs are more informed on this case than some. I just wish the reporters who write these posts would read what people are saying and see that they are not providing all of the facts so maybe they can do additional research and address that in a second article.

Stormy: I hate to admit it, but I agree.

What kills me is that the bloggers probably have access to more resources than we do, not to mention the time to do the research, and yet we "somehow" find more relevant information.

You're right about Lou Dobbs. And, have you noticed that Dobbs' rating have gone way up since he started covering the open border issue? And from a Conservative perspective on CNN to boot.

Another really good resource is Glenn Beck...also on CNN. He's had Sutton on twice in the past few weeks... and he takes Sutton to task!





Stormy: And here's another thing...

I usually watch Fox fairly regularly.. but even they are sometimes a week or more behind Dobbs and Beck with pertinent stories, facts, and information, and not always getting all the facts.

Amazing!








Don't forget Texas Deptuy Hernandez
Don't forget Texas Edwards County Deputy Hernandez, who was prosecuted by this same federal prosecutor for wounding an illegal when he shot the tires out of a vehicle loaded with illegals. It seems that you violate the civil rights of illegals when they get in the way of bullets while trying to avoid arrest.

You can donate to the fund set up to help his family: Hernandez Family Fund
Peoples State Bank
P. O. Box 437
Rock Springs, TX 78880

Research?
Anne, I have done research. I have to tell you I've found WorldNetDaily to be a very partisan hack news source with no credibility. Are we to just look the other way when BP agents “destroyed evidence, filed an incomplete report on the incident in an effort to keep this shooting and the circumstances surrounding it from the leadership?” Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for supporting Border Patrol Agents, and prosecuting drug smugglers, but I don’t think we should just ignore the law. The sentence in this case was way too harsh, but they’ve admitted breaking the law, and I believe they have to be held accountable for that. Do you disagree? http://judiciary.senate.gov/testimony.cfm?id=2872&wit_id=6583

The crux of the issue
The people who defend Sutton against Ramos and Campeon are just Hispanic haters. That's right, you heard me. They are racists.

Can't have anyone of Mexican descent guarding our borders. That would be wrong.

/sarcasm

Minnesotan: If that's what you chose to

believe, then that's your choice. But just because they've been found guilty by a jury is in no way a credible reason to believe they're guilty.

As I said, WND is a good starting point. Much of the information I've found (as I believe Stormy has as well.. but I can't speak for Stormy) we found on other sites.

With all the information I've read, I can't believe that either Compean or Ramos are guilty at all.




None of this came from WND!
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/pol/276095815.html

I recently signed a petition regarding the border agents that were jailed.
Today, I received this update:
============
"While Ron De Jong and I were presenting 304,000 citizen petitions to Rep. Rohrabacher on Capitol Hill, we were shocked when the Congressman informed us that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) had admitted to members of Congress... that they had lied to Congress about the case against imprisoned agents Ramos and Compean."
-----------------------------------------
****DID you get that part??? The DHS had ADMITTED to member of Congress that they had LIED to Congress about the case against imprisoned agents Ramos and Compean. Why would the DHS LIE to Congress???****
-------------------------------------------------
"Under questioning by Rep. Culberson, a DHS investigator admitted that his department did NOT have evidence to back up a number of
outrageous claims including: Mexican/American agents Ramos and Compean "wanted to shoot a Mexican"; confessed to shooting an unarmed suspect; were belligerent to investigators; lied and submitted false reports; and stated during the investigation that the illegal alien did not pose a threat.

"In addition, the DHS admitted that it began its prosecution BEFORE completing their investigation!"
-------------------------------------------------
****Why would they do that? Not enough evidence and began prosecution BEFORE completing their investigation. Sounds "Nifong-ish" to me!****
------------------------------------------------
"This is explosive news and we must now
act swiftly to intensify grassroots pressure--pressure that is making the difference in this case!"



Evidence
Anne, can you provide some evidence to support that they did not destory evidence or falsify reports?

RE: JURIES
Juries can only base their verdict on what they hear in court. When the defense isn't allowed to present exculpatory evidence due to biased decisions by the judge and prosecutor a fair trial is impossible. Yes, Ramos, Compean and Hernandez were all convicted by a jury. However, they were denied a fair trial by manipulations of the prosecution.
1. The prosecution successfully kept evidence that Osvaldo Aldrete Davila is a professional drug smuggler from the jury. He testified that he only did it the one time and omitted the fact that he was caught delivering another 850 lbs of marijuana to a safehouse in El Paso. The defense wanted to use that to impeach his credibility, the prosecution objected and the judge found for the prosecution.
Before the Senate, Juan Sutton refused to answer any questions about that using the standard "it's under investigation" dodge. I'm surprised that he forgot to say "I can't recall."

2. The bullet has a sordid history. The chain of custody was broken. It was also impossible to tie it to one of the border patrol agent's firearms. It's entirely possible that they missed him completely and that he was shot as punishment for losing the shipment. But, all the jury got to hear was that it came from one of their guns.

3. Dont forget that their supervisors were on the scene and knew what happened. What is their culpability?

4. Sutton's office and the judge, Kathleen Cardone, misapplied the law. The 10-year sentence is only applicable when there is an underlying crime involved. What was the underlying crime here? Did Ramos and Compean spit on the sidewalk or something?

Geez Minnesotan, I'm NOT your

resource or research assistant! Check it out for yourself.

I was simply trying to be nice and show you that there is pertinent information out there that is not from WND.

Either you want to find out as much information as possible or you don't!

If you don't, then that's okay. You've said your piece, you think they're guilty. Got it!



dollface: THANK YOU! :-)
I have, as I'm sure many of us do, a whole file of articles, etc., on this issue. But, we all know how much we love it when someone posts a million links... :-(

You're absolutely right! Good call. Thanks again.



Border agents
1. If the President wanted to send the message that he is not serious about stopping illegal immigration, he has sure done so by not pardoning the two border agents. By inference, it says that he will not stand behind any border agents or, for that matter, any federal enforcement agents, including military personnel, who use firearms to perform their sworn duty.

2. The recent situation here in New York City is proof positive that law enforcement officials should draw and use their weapons before the bad people among have a chance to use their weapons to kill law enforcement agents. The two police officers - one of which was killed - were murdered by three colored thugs because they did not approach the stolen car in which the three were in because people like Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson march in protest every time a non colored police officer shoots a colored thug in the commission of a crime. Had the police approached the stolen car with guns drawn, there would be one fine, honest, young police officer alive today, and three colored thugs with long records of violent crime, hopefully, dead or in no position to harm any other person.

Cliff, great post
Cliff, great post: Libs are ...
just pissed 'cause they had dibs on some of that grass. You can always depend on rope smokers to call evil good and good evil. It's just part of the sophisticated Hollywood mystique they like to project.

What Compean and Ramos should have done was shot the s.o.b. dead. He did not deserve better. Now he is back to his old tricks and the libs/lefties (except for Feinstein) are happy, as Cliff indicates so well.

Let's see how many brave dope smugglers there would be after three or four are shot dead. And if Mexico gets mad, what's new?

Change The Law
The law ought to be changed to permit deadly force to be used as a matter of course on all drug runners crossing our borders.

Reason: Because of the gigantic profits in the drug business, the mere threat of possible arrest and prison is NOT sufficient deterrence. Given the degree of human tragedy caused by drugs to individuals, innocent children and the family unit, we must balance the equation.


Border Patrol Agents
As much as I admire President Bush for his firm stance on Iraq & terrorism, I dislike him for lack of attention paid to our borders and then letting 2 agents go to prison but will commute Scooter Libbey. Quess the agents just were not in his inner circle. And to think the illegal drug runner is getting rewarded just makes me sick. Where is the justice??

Carla Griffis

Marcus
Actually, deadly force should be authorized against anyone crossing our border illegally. If you want to come to the United States, do so at an approved border crossing point or do so at your own risk. Homeowners are authorized to shoot burglers breaking into their homes. Why should our national borders be any different.

Anne, Dollface
All excelent posts. To many just want to believe the MSM and move on cause it takes to much effore to read or do research. I was that way till this Schmnasty thing poped its head. I was never very political minded for the most part. But it's true what I read in a post when someone posted a historical figures statment (sorry I cant remember who). But that post said that people wake up when they realise that there being bribed with their own money.

Thats true but when people pointed out that this Schmnsaty bill was just somke and mirrors for the true purpose of the bill..America got mad! The SPP was the true intentions of that bill that would have made the NAU and effectivly melted all borders between America, Canada, and Mexico with the introduction of the Amero and the RFID (Radio Frequency Identifers) Chips that would have been put into illegals ID's while they passed a Real ID act to chip the rest of America. Unfortunatly the Real ID act passed and if all states dont repeal it by May or July of 08 then we will all have chips in our ID's.

I run on but this was never about immigration it was about making a North American Union where we were all slaves to the gov and then slaves to the EU. These agents were prosecute, while totally innocent, to help further Bush's NAU attempt by showing the Mexicans he mean what he said when he stated that he would support them and curb attempts to stop Illegals. So he will never pardon them for any reason so he can fufil that promise while 2 families are destroyed. Small price to pay for him and all elites so they can open the borders and bankrupt this nation and make it a non-soverinty while they stay rich and make us the slaves!

Stormy
FYI: This is an opinion piece, not a news article. Also, the whole point of this piece is to say that if it was cool to give Scooter Libby a commutation for his perjury conviction, then it is the LEAST that can be done in the case of these two agents. That's all, Saunders is not attempting to lay out all of the facts---just her opinion based on the facts at her disposal.

Most of you do not have the facts.
If these men are innocent, why did they not report the perp had a gun until AFTER they got arrested, nearly a MONTH after the incident occured?

Why would they remove their own shell casings from the scene if the perp had a gun?

Simple: they KNEW the perp was unarmed, they shot him, and then they tried to cover their tracks.

Their stories hold no water. These are the facts. I've seen dozens of replies following my original post with these two damning facts, and nobody can rebut them.

It's a slam-dunk case and I am glad they are in prison. If it were up to me they would be seeing 20 to 30 years each, but that's only cuz I'm a law-and-order conservative.

Speaking of which, Run Fred Run!

Illegal Aliens
There are two major problems associated with illegal immigration, crime and the economy.

Crime increases because illegals are both perpretrators of crime and crime victims who are not likely to call the police. Remember, they committed a crime by coming here in the first place. When they obtained fraudulent social security and other documents to stay here they committed another crime. Also, the majority of them are men without their families present. This, combined with alcohol and drug abuse, can cause violent confrontations.

The city in which I live has a meat packing plant that opened about 18 months ago. They hire a great number of illegal aliens with forged papers. There were no murders in town in the preceeding two years of the plant opening. Since then, there have been 6 including 3 already this year. All of them are associated with that packing plant. As many as 8 to 10 of them will share a house. They get drunk. They start fighting. Someone gets cut up or shot.

The economic problems associated with illegal aliens is that they depress wages. It is a lie to say that they do jobs that Americans won't do. The truth is that they take jobs for wages that are below what Americans will do that work for or can do that work for. This lowers the wage scale for all Americans, especially at the lower end.

Let's say you are a lawn care worker. The economic wage in my area is around $8.50 to $9 an hour for an unskilled/ lowskilled job. Add in payroll taxes, unemployment insurance, worker's comp insurance and liability insurance and the true cost of that job to the employer is closer to $12. Say the illegal will work for $6 or even $7, cash. The unscrupulous employer pockets the difference. Meanwhile, the illegal is also a drain on our social services system. That's why we need vigorous enforcement of our immigration laws.

The pro-amnesty crowd claims that the lettuce won't get picked and the leaves won't get blown off people's lawns. Yes, those jobs will get done, just not as cheaply.

Ramos & Campeon Are Popular
Anne asks, "Did you know that just a few weeks ago the Innocence Project had their 200th prisoner released because they'd been WRONGLY found guilty by a jury of their peers?"

That may be so, but that does not lead to all convictions being wrong.

Ramos and Campeon are popular because they wrecklessly shot at a bad guy. After all, what can be wrong with shooting at bad guys? But, their rules of engagement and the law have a problems with that.

May President Bush will pardon them, maybe he will not. Either way, is okay with me.

Phil
You must be president of the Johnny "Juan" Sutton fan club.

Not a Sutton fan by any stretch.
Nope, I detest overzealous prosecutors, including this Sutton character. I have the facts on my side, that's all.

Straightforward questions
Dollface, I don’t even know who Johnny Sutton is, but I’d still like to hear someone answer Phil’s straightforward questions about this case. Why is it that nobody has responded with some kind of an explanation to those questions?

Minnesotan
Johnny Sutton is

Good Grief
There's none so blind as the thick in't 'ead libs
once they make up their minds. Odd isn't it, these same ones got hysterics whenever their wonder boy, the impeached perjured pervert was
caught or accused of something. Now they lose no
time in going after those of us who know those men and others were wrongly accused and jailed.
And now, Bush is their hero.
I voted twice for this man, I can't stand to look or listen to him. I was very offended by his answer to the woman who asked him about pardoning the Agents. It seemed as snarky as the
"see you at the signing" remark. I wish she'd
asked him if they were imprisoned because of the NAU? His A.G. didn't aggressively go after Sandy Burglar did he? Why? Could it be that all these years of Democrat attacks with no
comeback at all, and his letting Burglar off with a wrist slap was so he could get his agenda
through in this term?
Would one of you liberal genius's explain how someone who was injured as Davila was supposedly
injured could run, not walk to a waiting van? There's no indication that he even fell once he was hit As they say, follow the money, I bet it would lead us to some interesting places.
I don't recall Rush or Hannity commenting on SPP,
NAU or the Nafta Highway, has anyone else? That should be shouted from the rooftops over and over and over.

Minnesotan
Johnny Sutton is US Attorney for the Western District of Texas whose office prosecuted Border Patrol Agents Ramos and Campeon. His office also prosecuted a Texas Deputy Sheriff named Gilmer Hernandez who shot at a van full of illegal aliens that tried to run him down. The Hernandez incident was investigated by the Texas Rangers who proclaimed it to be a justifiable shooting. Deputy Hernandez was prosecuted at the request of the Mexican Consulate. There is also another BP agent named Aleman who was convicted of "harboring" illegal aliens who just happened to be his orphaned neices that he and his wife had legally adopted in a Texas court. There is a another Border Patrol agent whose name escapes me who was recently re-instated, after having his conviction thrown out by the Appeals Court, nearly 6 years after Sutton prosecuted him. There appears to be a pattern in the Western District of Texas of prosecuting Border Patrol agents.

Senator Diane Feinstien held a hearing last week at which Mr. Sutton testified. It was on C-Span, by the way, and Mr. Sutton's lack of credibility moved her to write a letter to President Bush asking that he, at minimum, commute their sentences. This, Mr. Bush has, so far, refused to do, calling Mr. Sutton, "a good friend of mine." Mr. Sutton is due to testify in about a week before a committee of the House of Representatives.

As to Phil's "straightforward" questions, he is taking them direct from Mr. Sutton's talking points.

As to Phil's first question, about the timing of their report: There were 7 other BP agents on scene, including two supervisors, who witnessed the shootings. So, ask the supervisors. Indeed, on this point the Inspector General of DHS admitted under oath before the Congress that his department lied. That undermines the credibility of the prosecution.

The shell casings are a red herring. Again, since the supervisors saw the incident and didn't stop them from picking up their shell casings they didn't think there was much there. It was only later when Johnny Sutton got ahold of it that it became a big deal. Also, most shooters who spend much time on a range have a pavlovian reflex to pick up their brass.

Furthermore, Phil doesn't want to talk about the damning facts that the chief witness, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, was arrested later trying to smuggle another 850 lbs of marijuana into the US. Since Aldrete Davila testified that the day he was shot was the only time he had ever smuggled drugs into the US, this would've destroyed his credibility. The solution was simple, don't tell the defense, and if they find out, don't let it get admitted into court. Sutton refused to answer any questions about this second incident about Mr. Davila to the United States Senate saying it was "under investigation".

There are other aspects to these prosecutions that stink to high heaven. Mike Nifong was pilloried as the worst prosecutor in the US, but he was just a rogue bum in North Carolina. Johnny Sutton is many times worse because he enjoys the confidence of the DOJ and is a "good friend" of the President of the United States.

Please just answer my questions.
Don't add your personal opinions. My questions are very straightforward:

If these men are innocent, why did they not report the perp had a gun until AFTER they got arrested, nearly a MONTH after the incident occured?

Why would they remove their own shell casings from the scene if the perp had a gun?

I hope they rot
What a bunch of retards. Did any of you bother to read the case. These guys are as guilty as dirt! Scream all you want about them being innocent, cause they aren't. Shot an unarmed man, did not report it, and tried to cover it up...oh but it's alright cause the guy they shot was an illegal and a drug smuggler. Who made them judge, jury and executioner?

Davy
How do you know the perp was unarmed?

DHS rules state that the agents aren't required to report shooting incidents to anyone except their supervisors. Which they did.

How and why would they try to cover the discharge of their weapons if there was no reason to believe a crime had been committed? Are you trying to draw implications because they picked up the shell casings (ala, Phil)? Every time I go to a range, I always p/u the casings. ALWAYS. Brass costs money and littering is bad. BFD.

"it's alright cause the guy they shot was an illegal and a drug smuggler." Works for me...regardless of everything else.

Read the testimony and watch the C-Span coverage before deciding the fate of these two men. In my mind, R and C got Nifonged.

Phil: RE 12:16AM post


How do you KNOW that they did not report the illegal had a gun until AFTER the got arrested?

And, by the way, "occured" is actually spelled "occurred!"

And how do you KNOW that they removed their own shell casings from the scene...?

The thing is, you DON'T KNOW...

DO SOME RESEARCH!

Mac Moore: Did I SAY that ALL

convictions were necessarily wrong?

NO, I did not!

My POINT was that it happens!

My point was just because Campean and Ramos were found guilty, it doesn't NECESSARILY mean that they ARE GUILTY!

My POINT was that SOMETIMES innocent people don't get a fair trial and are WRONGLY found guilty!

NOT a difficult concept, now is it? No, it is not!

"Ramos and Campeon are popular because they wrecklessly shot at a bad guy."

Well, that's exactly what's in question! Did they wrecklessly shoot anyone...as you say? Read above, the DHS admitted that they started prosecution BEFORE they had all the evidence, and they LIED to Congress. Hummmm??? That should concern you, if you cared at all.

"May President Bush will pardon them, maybe he will not. Either way, is okay with me." Really? So what's your point, and why are you bothering to ask questions, etc.?




Phil
You're an idiot.

Don't Expect a Pardon from Bush
At a town meeting last week someone asked Bush directly about the BP agents. Bush replied, "My friend Johnny Sutton is a fair man."

Bush and Sutton have been friends since the early 1980s when Sutton played baseball at the University of Texas and GHW Bush bought Junior a part-ownership of the Texas Rangers.

Sutton, along with his boss, Alberto Gonzales, worked for Bush when he was governor of Texas. Bush stands by his friends (even when they are wrong).

Just like the BP agents, Sutton's team lied and covered up evidence (the second drug load). If you watched the Senate Juniciary hearing, you realize the Senators didn't buy Sutton's story. Feinstein and Cornyn were almost in disbelief.

Watch the House Judiciary Committee, scheduled for July 31 on C-SPAN. The more you learn about this trial, the worse it smells.

I Wonder ...
How many of the posters defending the sentences actually watched the Senate Judiciary hearings, which were shown on C-SPAN and re-broadcast several times?

Senator Cornyn, himself a former judge, stated, "The drug smuggler got every possible break and the agents didn't get any."

A question for Sutton's defenders. Since the trial is over, why is some evidence (including the second drug load) still "sealed?" And, why are the original defense attorneys and the families of the agents still under a gag order? The original defense attorneys were not permitted to testify before Congress.

Yes, it was a "bad shoot," but it also was a "bad prosecution" and Sutton's team got the judge, Kathleen Cardone, whose background was primarily in family law with very little criminal background, to save their butts.

Phil
From the Greek word "idios" meaning "one's own".

Phil has a right to his own opinion. Parse that.


Radlad writes:
You forgot the pendleton 8..............
........The marines who have found themselves in the brig primarily on the word and accusations of the enemy............................

This isn't new! Capt McVey was convicted partly on the testimony of the Japanese sub commmander who launched the torpedo which sank the Indianapolis. CYA is part of the game.

Coolnout writes:
republican form of justice
Why would anyone want to commute the sentence of two lying rogue cops? They took the law into their own hands, lied to the courts to cover up illegal activity and now you want to release them?

This is so very typical of republicans. Ignore the law, close your eyes, pull the trigger, lie about the facts, and label it, "for public good."
Republican fascism at its best...........

As opposed to those heros who protected us from the Branch Davidians and burned their compound to the ground killing 70 plus. Then there is the FBI agent who murdered Randy Weaver's wife while she held a baby in her arms. I guess this is your kind of cop.


For valhalla
Amending to your post:

(9) let Ramos and Compean sue that thug Aldreto Davila for $10 million--EACH (twice the amount he's suing US government for)!
(10) let them sue Johnny Sutton (after he's placed in the hoosegow) for $5 million--again EACH!
(11) US government sue Mexican government for $1 billion--fraction of the amount spent so far in treatment of illegally-present Mexicans by US hospitals.

Free the Border Patrol Two
I absolutely agree with Debra, and I appreciate her sound articulation on this subject. This whole scenario makes me sick! We are punishing border patrol agents for doing their jobs, we are prosecuting our men in the military for not being "nice enough" to the enemy - it amazes me that the U.S. government can get ANYONE to work for them. The only criminal conduct here is the conduct of our government toward the men and women who serve this nation! They should all be ashamed of themselves!! Don't look for any help from Bush. He's too afraid of more bad press.

Still no answer to my questions.
Almost 10 hours later and nobody has been courageous enough to answer my questions, other than to claim they pick up their shell casings at the firing range. LOL. I didn't know these agents were just doing target practice! The best excuses I read were that "littering is bad" and "brass costs money." LOL!

The reason my questions cannot be answered is because they are extremely incriminating and hang guilt around these dirty cops' necks. So I can understand very much why you guys would not want to answer my questions. HEHE.

Again, here are the criteria for answering my very elementary questions.

1) Don't add your personal opinions.
2) Don't mention the "October Load."
3) Don't mention illegal immigration.
4) Don't mention firing ranges. (LMAO)
5) Don't make up your own facts.

If you cannot follow these criteria, then it's obvious you don't have an answer and these dirty cops are guilty as sin.

The questions:


1) If these agents were innocent and if the suspect had a gun, then why would they remove their own shell casings from the scene? (Ahem, rule 4 LOL)

2) If these men are innocent, why did they not report the perp had a gun until AFTER they got arrested, nearly a MONTH after the incident occured?

If you decline to answer, it's understandable, since these guys are guilty as heck.

Thank you.

Support Fred in '08!

20 - 30 Years?
Phil -

You're not a "law and order conservative," but rather a law and order idiot.

The typical murderer serves 8-1/2 years.

To bc3.
Actually if it were up to me, these agents would be shot by firing squad.

Phil
You're just as bad as Sutton and Nifong. You only want to play by your rules. Why don't you take your ball and go home.

Here's my question to you, bozo. Since there were two supervisors on the scene, why didn't they stop them from picking up their brass if it was such a breach of proper procedure? Isn't that a supervisor's job to make sure that everything is done correctly? Why aren't these supervisors rotting in prison, too? Under your bloched vision of the laws, these supervisors are guilty of a cover-up.

Justice?
Debra,
Please! With friends like Bush, and the fleckless Republican Party do you believe justice will be will served? Don't hold your breath on the pardons...I sincerely doubt clemency is forth coming from this train wreck of an administration and dysfunctional Party.

I Overrated You


"Actually if it were up to me, these agents would be shot by firing squad."


Phil -

If idiocy was a crime, you'd be serving a life sentence.

This is a stupid question (and I think I know the answer), but I am going to ask it any way. Did you take time to watch the Senate Judiciary Committee hearings which have been shown several times on C-SPAN?

The committee unameously supports commutation of the agents sentences. Senator Sessions is a former attorney general and Senator Cornyn is a former judge. Senator Feinstein was in a state of disbelief as facts regarding the trial unfolded.

This is probably the only time Cornyn and Feinstein agreed on anything. The trial was a total miscarriage of justice.

Oh, you're right.
The Senate would never get it wrong. Just like Iraq.

LOL.

Now will someone please answer my question?

Phil
Your question has been answered ad nauseam. Now, run along home to your mommy.

Didn't Watch, Did You?
Phil -

By your silence, it's obvious you didn't watch the hearings.

If you really want to make a contribution to the conservative movement, become a liberal Democrat. You'll fit right in with the Kos Kids.

What was the answer to my two questions?
To recap, they were:

1) Why did the cops destroy evidence?

2) Why did they wait a month to claim he had a gun?

Phil
It's clear you don't know frijoles about this case, but love to spout off about it anyway.

I don't think you'd know a fact if it walked up to you and introduced itself, but I'll try to get through to you:

1. They were instructed to do so by supervisors on the scene. Although this is not written Border Patrol procedure, it is a common practice when Border Patrol agents discharge their weapons but there's no evidence that anybody is hit. Supervisors suggest picking up the brass and forgetting about the incident so that they can avoid the paperwork involved. Remember, at this time they weren't aware that the smuggler had been hit.

2. They DID report to supervisors on the scene that they believed the suspect was armed, and that he had made what they believe was a threatening movement--turning back with his arm outstretched, as if to fire a gun.

Do you think you have it now?

Phil the Fool!: Those questions

are just stupid!!!!!!

It's the same as asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"


Phil the Fool! Of course, you're

assuming THAT:

1. Evidence was destroyed.

2.They actually waited a month to claim the drug smuggler had a gun.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Thanks for playing! You lose!


The punishment doesn't fit the crime
This punishment is too harsh. Firing them should have been the worst thing they did. Giving a known drug dealer immunity was inexcusable and if he is now allowed to sue, I will be really pissed because that is a travesty.

Robert and Phil
You must be the same person. You both even use the same writing style.

I'm with you Anne, ignoring
poster "robert" is the best way to go. As for the other annoying one, Phil (who reminded me of a pimple on a certain part of one's anatomy), I'm not so sure. This person was just getting big, big kicks out of being petulant on purpose.
Phil will never bother to read the trial transcript, listen to the Senate Judiciary Hearing, or go to web sites such as Grassfire to find out more details. It would mean phil would have to actually use his brain and think for once.

dollface, there has been
speculation that certain posters as the two you mentioned are paid by TH to get post discussion going. I do not know if this is true or not, but you find these posters, who despite different names, all seem to talk the same way.

dollface: You're right! Both

Phil the Fool, and "Walter Roberto Mitty" are typical examples of those limited liberals who have a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.

You know what they say, the only thing crazier than a crazy person is trying to make sense with a crazy person. LOL

It just gets a little annoying to have to continue to scroll by their posts... :-)






Yet another thread where it's so easy

to see who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't!




What would Phil do?
According to Phil, who said, “Actually if it were up to me, these agents would be shot by firing squad." the Border Patrol agents are a lethal threat to the public at large. . Phil wants them dead. He wants Davila to win, and he wants to kill the Border Patrol agents who didn't file their report after allegedly shooting a professional drug trafficker in the butt.

I have just two questions:
1. Phil, who is your crack dealer?
2. Phil, How long have you been avoiding your prescribed meds?

Actually, I have another question.

Why would they remove their own shell casings from the scene if the perp had a gun?

Well, I am sure there is a name for this figure of speech, where two independent elements are associated with one another in an attempt to make a point which is imagined bunk. Really, what is the connection?

Most guys pick up their brass. In many cases where there has been a shooting involving police, early investigators find the brass in clusters or piles, having been picked up by the officers out of habit. Often these perps, as Phil would call them, don't even recall doing it.

I would have to say that none of us know enough to second guess the actions of the agents or the other principals on the scene. The question is whether the punishment fits the infraction. In Phil's view, the officers should be executed. I think they should be let go. If there is a real threat to the safety of our citizenry from any of the principal players in the case, it is Davila.

So, my next question is, what would Phil do if he had the power and responsibility to take this case from the ground up and determine who should suffer most. The guy who smuggled at least 1500 pounds of weed into the USA (those are the two instances we know about), or two Border Patrol agents who wanted to keep that weed out of our communities?

Mr. Difar, good questions for
poster phil (who really could give a rat's patooty about the answers from what I can tell.)

Another question would be WHY would someone come to the defense of a known ILLEGAL alien drug smuggler anyway? Oh yeah, the one that wants to buy some of that weed!

Still no answer to my questions.
Aside from people making up "facts" from whole cloth that "it is common procedure to destroy evidence at the scene of a shooting where the cops report not that the suspect had a gun but that he only threw sand in our faces," my questions have not been answered.

And nice attempts to paint me as a drug-using liberal. Considering I have never used drugs in my life nor would ever consider voting Democrat, that's just too funny.

Maybe I should structure my questions differently.

1) If the suspect was armed, why did the agents report that he was not? Why would they wait until after they got arrested -- nearly one month later -- to report that he had a gun?

2) If the suspect was armed, why would the agents destroy evidence by throwing the shell casings down a drainage ditch?

Support Fred in 2008!

robert have you looked and blushed
IT is hard to believe you did check the Austin Hill thread, same date as this article.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt. But if you look at, you will be shocked and embarrassed because I laid out the evidence that perjruy trials occur in civil cases and you will see a case just like Clinton where the guy served jail timme.

Gearldo Rivera lost $10000 for talking like you. He bet someone. Assuming,you were honest and we bet, I would be a rich man.

Anyway, I will see if you for real when you respond and apologize for not doing the reasearch--only took me 2 mnutes. Check out Hill thread and my posts, You will get an education.

marcus
I'm for the "shoot to kill" change! Fat chance of ever seeing it, however.

I like the old signs that used to hang on property..."Keep out - trespassers will be shot!"

Why can't we give the border patrol agents the authority to keep the trespassers out of our country????
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