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Sunday, April 29, 2007
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Neverland
by Debra J. Saunders
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The smartest woman in America, Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., declared that she was wrong to believe "the president when he said he would go to the United Nations and put inspectors into Iraq to determine whether they had WMD." That's odd because the congressional resolution for which she voted in October 2002 didn't promise to send inspectors to Iraq. A small hint that the resolution was not about inspections can be found in its title, "Joint Resolution for the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq."

Also during Thursday night's MSNBC Democratic presidential primary debate, former Sen. John Edwards said: "I was wrong to vote for this war. Unfortunately, I will have to live with that forever. And the lesson I learned from it is to put more faith in my own judgment."

Does that make any sense?

As the Senate voted 51-46 for a measure to begin withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq no later than Oct. 1, an air of unreality permeated the debate. Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, and New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson both pledged to withdraw all U.S. troops from Iraq -- the Senate measure would allow some U.S. troops to remain to pursue terrorist organizations and train and equip Iraqi security forces -- and then touted their plans to call on the international community to place international peacekeeping forces in Iraq.

Fascinating, but I have to wonder: After a U.S. pullout, which country would provide those fine international peacekeeping troops? France? The next time that Democrats debate, here are two questions I would like to hear: One, what will happen in Iraq if Congress wins its troop-withdrawal timetable? Two, will remaining U.S. troops be more or less secure? Not that I'd expect an honest answer.

Indeed, it ought to concern the voting public that the Democrats apparently don't have enough confidence in their stand on Iraq to speak plainly about it.

In a recent interview on CNN before the debate, Senate Majority Leader Harry ("the war is lost") Reid of Nevada, insisted, "I agree with Gen. (David) Petraeus," the U.S. commander in Iraq -- about the fact that the Iraq war must be won politically. And, "He's the man on the ground there now."

Reid not only misrepresented Petraeus' position -- Petraeus believes the war must be won politically, but that can't happen until Iraqis feel secure, hence the need for a surge in U.S. troop strength in Iraq -- but also, Reid then declared that he doesn't "believe" Petraeus when the commander says he sees progress in Iraq.

If there is any good news coming out of Iraq, clearly Reid does not want to hear it. What is more, as the antiwar base pushes D.C. Democrats to de-fund the war, the day may come when they get what they want -- a precipitous withdrawal of U.S. troops.

Then what? On Thursday, two CNN correspondents just back from Iraq -- Kyra Phillips and Michael Ware -- were asked if it would help the situation in Iraq to withdraw U.S. troops.

Phillips responded: "There is no way U.S. troops could pull out. It would be a disaster."

Ware answered, "If you just want to look at it in terms of purely American national interest, if U.S. troops leave now, you're giving Iraq to Iran, a member of President Bush's axis of evil, and al-Qaida. That's who will own it. And so, coming back now, I'm struck by the nature of the debate on Capitol Hill, (by) how delusional it is. Whether you are for this war or against it, whether you've supported the way it's been executed or not, it does not matter. You broke it -- you've got to fix it now. You can't leave, or it's going to come and blow back on America."

Ware made news himself when he dismissed GOP Sen. John McCain's assertion that Westerners can walk through some Baghdad neighborhoods unarmed -- Ware wondered if McCain was in "Neverland." McCain later took back those words.

Meanwhile, Ware's claim that Congress is "delusional" likely will garner scant attention.

If the Democrats prevail, more than 3,300 U.S. troops will have died for a war that al-Qaida in Iraq could claim to have won. Many more Iraqi civilians will die, while survivors will be doomed to living with dread and chaos.

And all the Democrats can say is: Time to get out because Bush made me do it.

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Iraq, Times Change
During WWII the saying that made headlines for the Democrats was "Retreat Hell!." The slogan of 2000 for Democrats is "Hell, Retreat!." Bill D.

Only One Problem Woth Column
The only problem with this column is calling Hillary Cinton the smartest woman in America. Otherwise, the column is on target.

Kyra Phillips and Michael Ware
Will soon be on the unemployment line. They dared to go to Iraq, look at the conditions there, and then come back and say.... that what "GetTheHe11Out Harry" Reid & Co. are saying is the exact opposite of reality.

This is, of course, a direct conflict with CNN's editorial policy. Not to mention that of ABC, NBC, CBS, and MSNBC.

Phillips and Ware obviously learned nothing from Bernard Goldberg's experience at CBS. They will now learn first-hand what the MSM does to apostates. If they're smart, they're already updating their resumes'.


Hello, Fox?


cheers

eon

Rehash
How many times will we be subjected to the same old stories? This theme has appeared, with slight variations at least 1000 times over the last four years.

Please, tell us something we don't know. As for opinion, if it is exactly like the last one I read, it doesn't impress.

Who are thes people?
Who are these people that feel comfortable with retreat? How many of them abandoned the president in the last election? How many of them have their children in the Armed Forces fighting for what we believe in. Life, Liberty, and Freedom? I can not believe that those in Congress calling it quits, know what is really going on. What do they think war is all about? If we don't stop terrorists at their nest, we will end up in the nest. I don't like war, but my idea of war is total destruction of the enemy, then the war is over. We must destroy not only the enemy, but their ideas as well. Let's just do it and then get out.

While our borders remain WIDE OPEN......
.........

Until Bush has a plan
Some Republicans say the Democratic pullout measures help put pressure on Maliki to do the right thing. Maybe they also put pressure on Bush to find a way to win. He certainly hasn't been in a hurry until now. Even the 10% "surgelet" (yet to be completely implemented) was a result of Democratic political pressure to actually win.

Yes Hillary was dumb to believe Bush in 2002/2003. What does that say about the people who still believe him now?

A horrible thought
If Hillary is the smartest woman in the world....Where does that leave me?

LGM
You posted, "Maybe they [cut-&-run RINO's] also put pressure on Bush to find a way to win."


Well, surrender isn't a "way to win". BTW, what IS the Democrats' "way to win" plan?

What Bush should do
He should go on the air one night next week, and say that no matter what, he was wrong to send troops to Iraq. Regardless of what anyone else says, he is immediately pulling out all the troops, there's no possible way to conmvince him otherwise, and any opponents to this plan should shut their mouths.

I'm sure that within two days, Reid/Pelosi & Co will pass a bill demanding he increase our troop presence there, fight the war aggressively to the max, and increase funding by 150%.


What Bush REALLY Should Do:
Bush and Cheney should go on national television and announce:

"It is clear that this administration no longer has the confidence of Congress or the American people. Therefore, effectively immediately, The Vice-President and I resign."

In 30 minutes, President Pelosi is sworn in, and the problem becomes hers and the Democrats. They are invested in America's defeat -- they should be given title to it.

Mack
Wow! There has been an ongoing background notion on TH that only by putting the DEMs in charge so they can really mess up can the direction of this country be corrected. Not too long ago Peppermint reminded me of the frog slowly being boiled in slowly heated water. there is a distinct possibility of the USA going out just that way. The 2 possibilities to prevent it are a scenario as you suggest, either by Bush instigating it, or by its occurring in 08 ala voters, or secondly, by the Jihadists becoming overconfident and instead of bleeding us of will and treasure to that slow end, they get over confident and hasty and arouse the sleeping giant. This last is most likely. Despots like Hitler, Napoleon, etc have historically shown unable to handle victory.

Lynne: LOL
Psywar!

Dubya's "legacy"
I voted for Dubya twice-- the second time especially holding my nose. I knew even by '04 that the neoCONS had snookered us into war with artful deception amid ulterior motives against the wrong bad guys, but figured that the court appointments and tax cuts alone made even Dubya better than the windsurfing, do-nothing, gigolo, public traitor, phony "grandpa changed our name from Cohen," Ichabod/Lurch Kerry.

That proved to have been a Hobson's Choice. Dubya has been SO INEPT and arrogant and sourrounded by poor choices from the Texas Mafia (see AA appointment Gonzales) that he is in a death spiral, and has almost single-handedly assured that the 'Crats will infect us with big entitlement government for a while. They will push thru Scamnesty, thereby dooming America to perpetual demise-- balkanization, bilingualism, crime, drugs, gangs, barrios, welfare cheating, dropouts, illegitimacies... but then, Presidente Jorge wants Scamnesty too! See- a Hobson's Choice!

lodestar
Will you provide a URL for what you're talking about with regard to Gonzales please?

For cryin' out loud
What is wrong with you liberals??? The last time you had a cold did you blow all your brains out through your nose?? I keep reading the same old drivvel from each and every one of you. Blame blame blame, like a bunch of snottiy nose little kids saying "He did it he did it" We went to war with Sadaam and won!! True, no one foresaw the insurgencey and things went haywire, but we couldn't leave the Iraqis to fend for themselves Now we have to get together and find a way to win this part of the battle and leave. It's as simple as that...

Where I fault Bush;
Bush appointed Alberto Gonzales Attorney General for the same reason Clinton appointed Jocelyn Elders Surgeon General and got the same level of service to our Nation.

City Mayors defy Federal Immigration laws, meddle in National Law enforcement and rub that Girlyman Gonzales' nose in it and he does nothing!
Democrats are presently abusing and PERVERTING our legal system for political cause and again, they rub Gonzales's nose in it and he does NOTHING!

If Gonzales were not such a woosie joke, he would show up in Congress with a hand truck of indictments for Democrats, arrest the entire Democrat Socialists of America and intern them at Guantanamo for the War's duration, charged with being subversive enemy agents and tried by Military Tribunal.
Then do the same thing in the Senate.

Democrat Socialists of America has proven itself to be an ENEMY organization within our Government that openly collaborates with Americas enemies and works to overthrow our ligitimate Government.

Cowboy
You asked how to defeat them militarily. Easy. The same way wars are always won militarily. Destroy opposition and ignore collateral damage. About 3/4 of the area of Iraq is virtually opposition free. Level the portions that resist. When Baghdad et al look like Berlin, Dresden and Hiroshima, resistance will cease, and 99% of the survivors will just want to go back to trying to scratch out a living in the devastation. They will rat out the 1% who wish to continue resistance, as the German people did the Werewolf Resistance led by SS survivors in 1946. They very well might choose, with MacArthur type encouragement, a representative form of govt. Then we get out, to put up with the ingratitude of the elites (see France, Germany, Japan, Korea). Its sort of like losing a friend by lending them money, but it often leaves a representative govt in place that finds itself on our side when the chips are down.

Talking?
We have a good example of what talking will do. President Bush has tried to talk to the democrats, and what did it get him? They saw weakness, and went after him, the nicer he was, the more they attacked. How much worse will it be to talk to a bunch of terrorists?? The more you talk to them, the more they attack. The only thing they respect is bombs and bullets. Turn our men loose, let them kill people, and break things without worry about what the world will think. That is what war is about!!!!

Where he's wrong
Although I have backed Bush of the war, I am totally against him on Illegal immigration. He hasn't protected us against Lord only knows how many criminals,and yes, terrorists have filtered into our country. Our peopole who have tried to stop them have been labled as criminals, and sent to jail. ....Did Al Quida come across? Hamas? Hezbolla? We may find out soon, and try and talk to them too.

oops
people..not peopole

October 2002 vs. April 2007
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY), Oct 10, 2002

Mrs. Clinton is a revisionist -- which is a nice way of saying she is dishonest.

nanna
could you be more specific about Bush talking to, and being nice to, Democrats?

MyOpine
We haven't had a legitimate government for quite some time.

gently 99
The central flaw in your argument is that Germany and Japan are countries that declared war on the US. We invaded Iraq and petitioned the UN to be recognized as its' occupier, the administration's central flaw in its' post war planning, or lack thereof. As Richard Perle has stated on several occassions, Bush's biggest mistake was turning the liberation into an occupation.

Whether we like it or not, Bush has taken America on the course of nation building in Iraq. We are there to protect the Iraqi people and help them establish a unity government and stable security. The one ray of hope in that regard is the rejection of the insurgency in Anbar.

The path you suggest would not only undermine what progress we have made there, but would in fact coalesce resistance to the American prescence. Besides which, where do you suggest we find the resources needed to conduct the kind of total war you advocate? As Gates has stated publicly, the surge is taking six months to finalaze because the forces are currently stretched.



The guy with the big job
Bush is the President. It's his job to find a way to win. The Democrats don't know either, but at least they are willing to tell the truth about it and acknowledge yet again that American boys are dying for a politician's mistake.

Gnu
You are so right. Its not just that lib pols flip flop, its that they deny the obvious -- and their supporters don't seem to care? NOW has no trouble accepting Slick Willie's treatment of women. Examples abound. It severely lowers my opinion of most of those on the left. We on the right talk about holding our nose as we vote. Surely those on the left must have the same problem. But they never admit it.

Bush
Well, I see the Bush apologists are out in full force this morning. Why are you folks defending him? He's no conservative. His actions have been despicable.

Bryce
You make several good points and i do not disagree sharply, but i do disagree. The crush option was available when we went in. Bush made the mistake that we would be recognized as liberators. Many did, but it only takes a small armed minority to resist. And of course, as Cowboy noted, a big majority, now that Saddam is gone and options are open, believe that if the Americans would just leave, all would be hunky dory. Failing the crush option, we should have probably declared victory and left. Now it is a population control problem. Not insoluble, but not really being addressed. I have read recommendations by folks on the spot that i believe might do the trick. Biometric ID cards, strict movement control, with tracking devices on vehicles, and restricted legal areas for everyone. A Sunni caught outside his own legal area would be treated as a terrorist. The border with Syria and Iran would be turned into a relatively wide free fire zone monitored by UAV's that destroy anything that moves. In other words, make it tough to leave your house and go somewhere to trash someone you consider an enemy. The vast percentage of terrorism involves movement. I fault Bush not so much for going in, as for the fact its a mess. Nothing succeeds like success. If it comes out ok, it was a good idea. If not, he mesed up. Its his watch. FDR was smart enough and patient enough to wait until the country was clearly behind him. Bush had to do something. Afghanistan and finding some way to nail OBL would probably have been enough for the nonce.

Liberty
At present we have so many Communists in our Government trying to cause confusion for a takeover that it actually amounts to a Govenrment within a Government.
That is why they refuse to listen to the people and close our borders.
They need failure and confusion in order for Communists to restore order and take control.

Links to Communists in Government seem to be vanishing.
This place has some good info but the direct links don't work.
http://www.sovereignty.net

The Aftermath of a Withdrawal
If Harry Reid is willing to withdraw American troops from Iraq and is sure that it is the correct course of action. Then he should be willing to take responsibility for whatever occurs after our retreat both in Iraq and here at home.

MyOpine
Thanks for the link.

There are some interesting links here:
http://www.governamerica.com/

Bryce
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, I was off somewhere else. Lynne was right about Kennedy. Bush even had them in to watch a movie. He worked with Kennedy on the "No child left behind" act...... He was nice to the dems because he didn't probe into the leaks that were coming out of Congress to the New York Times, and bring charges against them. He was nice to Nancy Polosi, and had talks with her. What kind of payment did he get? These are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head. Oh yeah, he's working with Kennedy on the STUPID immigration bill.

On-topic
new essay on my blog, "The Mayor and the Governator".

Just click my name.

MyOpine
"Links to Communists in Government seem to be vanishing."

Yes, it's now called "communitarianism" or communitarian law.

The President Was Wrong!!!
Algeria North Africa didn't attack us at Pearl Harbor, and there were certainly no French or Italian Troops involved in supporting the Japanese.

The President is Wrong to be pursuing the German Army into Italy. Adolf Hitler didn’t attack us. Right now the President is wasting American Lives with a two front war while it’s Tojo-been-forgotten.

How could The President even be thinking about an invasion of France. Hasn’t all of the soldiers killed at Anzio convinced him that this war is unwinnable?

Look at what’s happening in Northern France now – this Bulge thing is proof positive that the war is already lost. I think the President is making his speeches in the State of Denial


(Oh how well they fit!)

jd

Hustler
And no matter how many times you hear the TRUTH OR who it is telling it to you, you still won't care.

I am a believer that there is a special place in Heii for people who so callously, knowingly and, blithely call for genocide. Dismissing the human toll of our withdrawl/surrender is akin to the Germans population of WWII not acknowledging the evil of Hitler's Final Solution as it was going on all around them. Though at least back then, there were some who could honestly claim ignorance of the facts.

Not so today. EVERYONE KNOWS.

Don't worry though, there will be many just like you enjoying the very same amenities when their time comes. In fact, the place will be lousy with Dem politicians...still looking for your vote most likely.


Sergeant Major

Do you think there's a chance Reid and the Dems supporting our surrender and the murder of millions of civilians that once trusted us to protect them would sit still for a Neuremburg style War Crimes trial?

And that is exactly what it should be.

Lynne
How r u 2day?
Caught your post on blog...thanks.
Kudlow...that's the thread!!!

I thought long ago about the same thing Brian was suggesting...whatever the President wants MUST be opposed by the Left!

Maybe, before it's too late he should announce a re-deployment plan that would send the troops to Darfur! That would put the Dims in a bind!!

Lynne

Kos or Huffpo must be down again...LOL
I've seen MGB...makemebarf...notsobryce...and others...might be a fun night. :-)

Lynne
You really should leave off the request for an IQ check. You'll never get back on.

Lynne
Just like a liberal. Thinking the world revolves around you.

Liberty/Lynne: If I may interject
You guys are on the same philosophical side of the fence.

This kind of like Ireland killing itself over interpretations of Christianity.

Okay, note to self: nose butted in far enough.

Lynne
I am willing to call a truce. How about you?

I guess that means the answer is NO.
Okey dokey. I tried.


merry_go_littleboy
Did your mommy and daddy go to a movie and leave you home alone again?

Do you really think if you CAP LOCK EVETRYTHING YOU MAKE ANY MORE SENSE?

Now...do not bother writing anything directed to me again...unless you want to prove just how much of an IDIOT you are.

I am through wasting time posting about politics with someone who is several years away from voting age. That means you...

I figure I better spell it for you in case you (like so many other 12 year old children of Liberal parents) doesn't understand what you read.

Maybe when you grow up, like if you stay in school long enough to become a high school senior you will have an original idea, and not have to MIMIC other peoples' posts or stances.
But then again.......I doubt it.

So goodby bottom-feeder.

Lib: Wait one!
There's sometimes a lag between writing a post response to someone and seeing their response, then your response, etc.

As we all WELL know, the TH system is far from perfect.

Besides, I like both of you.

Stop for me, okay?

Jeez, I can't even remember the last time I sounded so WHINY!

Note to self: pay attention to last Note to Self.

Karen
Don't martyr yourself for us! You aren't the only one with a loved one serving in Iraq today. So your sanctimonious "for all you care" just shows a level of selfishness that I find appalling.

Now think of this, as I have...if or when your Democrat heroes get their way, the majority of the troops will go to Darfur more than likely, BUT what is an ABSOLUTE is that they plan on leaving a few troops IN COUNTRY "to continue to train Iraqis, secure the borders..." etc.

IF your NG is one of those left behind to carry out THAT DUTY how will you feel then? Or if he goes to Darfur into an even messier situation. Todays news from Sudan is this, according to CBS; "the miltias have now split in a dozen or more fighting factions" and oh yeah...
"the 'ethnic Arabs' (a euphamism for Islamists but the MSM nor the Dems want you to think about that just yet) are in the process of carrying out an ethnic cleansing"...sounds like Iraq, don't it?

I don't want to trade one war for another and neither do my nephews. Especially when strategically, Iraq and the Gulf region is much more VITAL to our national interests than Sudan will ever be.

If my family members are going to make the ultimate sacrifice they've told me they would rather it be for something that means something to us. Given their druthers they would prefer to remain in Iraq if they are not going to be brought home but sent to another battlefield somewhere.

Ask your NG if it were Darfur or Iraq what would his choice be...because its his and my two nephews whose opinions count, not yours, not mine!

Even though the Dem politicians are trying to make it theirs!

Karennkc: You are TOO easy
I loved what you wrote: "but my point was that you who want to start these wars should have to fight them,"

Oh, the old "chicken-hawk" argument! Tried, tested, and found intellectually void, and let me count the ways!

The presupposition is that those who are pro-war but non-vets are "chicken-hawks".

As a pro-war vet, I guess I'd be a "hawk-hawk". You, as a presumed non-vet anti-war person, would be a "chicken-chicken".

As a "hawk-hawk", I presume my opinon on the conduct of the war would carry more weight than your "chicken-chicken" opinion.

Unless, of course, it's time for us to surrender to the Islamo-fascists, in which case, never ahving myself surrendered under fire, I'd have to defer to the surrender specialists, the "chicken-chickens".

That about sum up your argument there, Karennkc?


Brian
Nice analogy...LOL...but it makes too much sense for the 'chicken-chickens' to understand I'll bet.

Most of the Anti-war people have been listening to their 60 era hippies who are now teachers, politicians, parents. They think all war (especially if the US is involved) is unnecessary and conducted out of malice towards our fellow man.

Few if any understand it is about the overall health and well being of our country first, the rest of the free world next. I have heard too many say they would rather live as slaves (though thats not the way they put it) than fight a war. And then there are those who think it affects only them.

If we don't win this fight our days as a peaceful place to live are numbered. The chicken-chickens as you so aptly named them don't see the forest for the trees.

Magnificus: LOL
Yeah, intellectual challenge to the Left is, well, a challenge.

I'll await a response from Karen.

However, in the interest of self-preservation, I won't hold my breath.


Check yourselves
Just a slap in the face with the cold, wet towel of reality and perspective:

in 36 days of fighting on Iwo Jima, there were 25,851 U.S. casualties, of which 6,825 Americans died. Almost all of the 22,000 Japanese soldiers died. In 36 days.

in 4+ years of fighting in Iraq, we hear the screaming, wailing, and gnashing of teeth over our casualty list, which stands over 3,300 as the author notes. In 4+ years.

Every life is sacred,and you hate to lose any of these heroes, but I'd say we're doing a heck of a job taking over a whole country for 4+ years and only losing the number of warriors we have.

If you hate the war, fine. But to use the excuse of volunteer soldiers' dying to justify surrender to these jihadi animals shows no perspective of the reality of war. People are going to die in a war. The idea is to kill more of the other guy. It's horrible, but simple really.

BrianR
Since you feel like laughing, I shall help!

My computer room is way in the back of the house and just as I sat down to check up on you guys I heard a very loud voice in the front. Sounded like it was on my front porch;
"That's my money b***h, I'm gonna kill you!"
I snatched up Carl Walther on the way and ran to the front door to find some guy clear across the street yelling into a cell phone! LOL

MyOpine
He shoulda had Cingular...no need to shout when you can hear a pin drop! Or is it Verizon???

shempy
That same crowd has no regard for the HIGHER casualty rate of American civilians caused by this;
http://www.newsmax.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/3/15/124229.shtml

Or the fact that it costs more money than the war.

MyOpine
whew, what a neighbor...is he a un licensed pharmacist or a entertainment co-ordinator? perhaps you should change from a Walther to a Mossberg 500 or Remington 1170/870.
as far as the link goes I think too many in power kind of sweep that under the carpet

But
Mrs Bill will be a-lookin' unda that thar car-pet when (NOT) she visits the WH

ch47 jockey
LOL...took me a few seconds to figure out what an un licensed pharmacist or a entertainment co-ordinator meant...

since they use terms l;ike
un documented worker thought I would try it on other things as well, trying to learn double speak just so I can write a liberal-english dictionary

multi-lingual eh?
be careful...some might think you're a MrsBill fan.....

Me...
I'm going to brush up my Australian...its kinda like English...ok, so not really, BUT any country that won't let Snoopy visit sounds like a safe enough haven if the Socialists and the Illegals get total control here.

Australia
wonderful country or so I've been told by natives and visitors, however they seem to have fallen under teh spell of teh gun grabbers, also they are having trouble with muslim extremist, mainly somalians

ch47 jockey
I have a Remington 1100 3" magnum.
I don't know where that guy came from. He is not a neighbor.
He was loud enough he does not need a telephone he needs a broadcast license.

Australia is out then...
Then I'll brush up on my Austrian...Can't yodel worth a dam but I'll learn.

They really have that big a problem with Islam?
Is there anywhere, (Greenland, Iceland & Antarctica are too cold for me) I can go when the bottom falls out here?

I'll probably just end up hunkering down and making sure I've got enough ammo to last awhile

Australia
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21535477-25717,00.html

Myopine was just making a joke but the 1100 with 00buck is a supreme home defense tool

oops
I menat I was making a joke

ch47 jockey
Thanks for the link...I guess theyDO have a problem...the same problem we're going to have here very soon I suspect.

I live near Boston. The Mayor of Boston just gave CAIR a parcel of land worth 6 million for only 2 million for them to build a mosque on.

I couldn't help wondering if he had any idea the word "mosque" translates to "recruiting station"

one has to wonder
considering so many of the Immams (moderate in theory) refuse to denounce the jihiadi. However some do oppose the jihad, the trouble is either they are scared to come out against it or deep down they are repelled by the excess in western culture (overly sexual/homosexual activities in the media,which the leftist in this country seem to hold dear). Odd though one of the biggest reasons the islamist hate us is the do anything-without consequences leftist here, they are the biggest supporters of the islamist. probably because GWB is not islamic...

ch47 jockey
The punch line to your 00 shot joke?
An anti-gun neighbor wanted to repay me for a favor and knew I owned a M 1100 so she ordered me a case of "The most expensive 3" shells you have."
I guess you know I ended up with a case of maximum loads, 15 - 00 pellets to the round.
I managed to trade most of them off for something I could hunt with.

ducks or upland fowl?
My father is a huge duck/goose hunter, he has more steel shot than lead, which makes me think that enviromentalist might use the lead factor to harm ammo sales, just a nightmare though.

Not trying to start a fight here...
But how many of the posters actually have relationships with Muslims. Just curious.

I do
the last serious girlfriend I had was an Iranian who fled the 79 revolution, and another friend with whom I bowled regularly was a palestinan who invited me to end of Ramadan parties,I have had many professional involvements with muslims in the past as well, however since I relocated I don't see as many muslims as I did previously.

What happened?
I recall Kerry had a "plan" to win Iraq. What happened to it? I mean, he didn't win, but isn't it a bit childish to withhold the plan just because he didn't win?

if he ahs a plan, why isn't he presenting it?

Same with the rest of the Dems. Didn't they say they had a "plan" back in 2006? Why ahve they been keeping it from us. Are they immature enough to think that they should withhold the plan so Bush doesn't get the credit?

Or maybe, just maybe, none of these lefties had ANY PLAN and they lied to us? Maybe they just wanted to bash Bush and have no ideas at all themselves?

No, can't be true, can it?

Gently
Thank you for mentioning the werewolves after wwII. I am sick of people who seem to think we never enocuntered resistance like this after winning a war.

True, we are losing because the generals and politicans won't let the soldiers fight, but we did encounter similar resistance in Germany post WWII (some until almost 1950), though they did not have outside nations funding and supplying them, so it was nto so bad.

if we were serious we would:

1. Close the borders to Iraq. Any violations met by incursions into Syria or Iran.
2. Fight this like a war and not a PC police action
3. Tell Iran and Syria that any support to "insurgents" is an act of war. And mean it.

Then we could easily quell this (if we are honest about the scope) pathetically small uprising.

But we continue to try not to offend anyone, not to risk harming even one possibly innocent civilian, not ot harm one building in order to win the "hearts and minds". And we end up letting the terrorists act with impunity and have turned an easy win into a prolonged stalemate.

(Note, we still aren't losing, but we are fighting for a standstill in a conflict we could easily win.)

Kant's ethics
The left kind of reminds me of Kant's ethics, read at face value. (Philosophy majors, don't correct me. I know many have made it more complicated, and tried to explain away what he actually said, but his basic point is pretty clear.) Kant seems to say that if you do good, but get some benefit, it doesn't count. You have to do good and get no benefit for it to be moral.

Same with the left. If we liberate Iraq it is no good, because we have a national interest. We have to liberate Kossovo, or Darfur, or Haiti, because it makes no difference to us. In fact, in the case of Kossovo, it probably hurts us by putting a radical Islamic state (and a state run by organized crime tied to Chechnya) right in Europe.

It is strange how the left always wants us to fight everywhere EXCEPT where national interest would have us fight.

Bryce
My immeidate boss is an Iranian with one Moslem and one jewish parent. His boss (my big boss) is a Pakistani. In elementary school I was very close with the son of Iranian refugees. And many of my coworkers at several jobs were moslems.

One time I was subject of a moslem joke when I worked in a huge data center. I was on the ground inspecting cabling when two coworkers walked by and started laughing and told me "No, mecca is that way". They seemed shocked that I found it funny too. (Back in the early 90's when Islam was not so front and center in American consciousness, so we could afford to know a lot less about Islam, and most did.)

I don't know your point in asking. Are you thinking most conservatives don't know many moslems, based on the leftists trope of "hatred comes from ignorance"? And you are thinking that if we just knew more Moslems we would be OK with 9/11 and understand why they want us dead?


Bryce Pt. 2
By the way, punchline to my moslem joke (and to prove intollerance is not one way):

My coworkers were less than amused by my response of "But Jerusalem is a little to the left." (Yes, we care which way we face when we pray too, for those who don't know.)

So, see, it isn't just ignorant westerners. Those poor "oppressed minorities" can be just as bigotted.

And, since you asked, with how many conservatives do you have close contact? Is it possible your liberalism is the result of being insulated from conservative thought?

Andrews
I support your recommendations for winning in Iraq. I have expressed my own extensions, and those of others i agree with several places, so will desist here. Its winnable though, just like the solution to the illegal alien problem here is easy. Just make it to their advantage to go home, and they will. Incarceration for busted illegals, and an expanded well controlled worker program would do it. We wouldn't have to arrest them all. A few thousand building roads in Alaska would do it.

Gently
I offered two solutions for the illegals:

1. For the law abiding, fine employers 5% of yearly revenues for every alien they employ. This will make jobs impossible to find.
2. For illegal aliens who come to cmmit crimes, make it a capital offense to commit a felon while in the country illegally. That should prevent them from getting deported and sneaking back in to re-offend. Also makes cirme in the US less appealing to them.

Should manage to make most of them self-deport. And ending the anchor-baby interpretation of the constitution should resolve the remaining problems. (Or just let the states determine their own citizenship laws, instead of making it a federal issue. Bet the border states would not make citizens of anyone born inside the borders. Well, except for California, what crazy liberal hell-holes big chunks of that state are... though there are some good people trapped there.)

But not the topic here, so I'll let that go.

thanks for answering all, to andrews
I was honestly curious because I live in an area that has a large Muslim population. I have daily interactions with Muslims and have encountered very few extremists. Thanks again.

andrews pt 2
The YMCA where I work out is actually a hotbed of political debate. A broad cross section of opinion there. Actually, I would much rather discuss issues with those who don't agree with me, I find the echo chamber intellectually suffocating.

Bryce
My apologies if I misinterpreted your question or the motives behind it.

I am simply wary of seemingly innocent questions on townhall as too many on both sides have developed a fondness for "gotcha" questions, or attempt to mask their own positions in order to 'draw out' statements from others which they then attempt to tear apart.

So, if it was an honest question without ulterior motives, I apologize for my mistake.

One thought for you, however. You know many moslems, and claim you know few extremists. I think you should say "I know few publically extreme moslems". Just as many white supremacists, black militants, JDL extremists, klansmen, anti-Catholic extremists, etc. do not make a public pronouncement of their beliefs, knowing how poorly they would be received, I am sure many moslems are equally quiet about their true beliefs, especially when speaking to non-moslems.
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