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Monday, April 23, 2007
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
Will Afghanistan Be the Next Iraq?
by Debra J. Saunders
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The simple equation in politics today -- at least according to many Democrats -- is that the war in Iraq is a bad war and the war in Afghanistan is a good war. But if a congressional timetable forces a pullout of U.S. troops from Iraq, will Afghanistan go the way of Iraq?

My fear has been that a pullout from Iraq will further imperil Afghanistan.

Having succeeded, jihadists who have gone to Iraq to martyr themselves instead would go to Afghanistan.

Also, if U.S. troops withdrew from Iraq precipitously, there would be a vacancy for the "bad war" slot. Antiwar activists in North America and Europe would push for their countries to withdraw their troops from the NATO coalition in Afghanistan. In short order, they could succeed in undermining the effort.

Afghan Ambassador Said Tayeb Jawad has seen his country suffer from roadside bombs and suicide bombers, which he noted are a "foreign phenomenon in Afghan culture" inspired by terrorists in Iraq. The diplomat visited The San Francisco Chronicle last week, which gave me the opportunity to ask him what he thought would happen if U.S. troops left Iraq as per the wishes of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

Jawad had a rosy response. U.S. support for Afghanistan is strong and bipartisan, he answered. He does not think an Iraq withdrawal would affect his country and that "support for Afghanistan will be stronger."

In a follow-up e-mail, Jawad explained that, "Terrorists are opportunistic and constantly trade one battleground for another, moving from Chechnya to Uzbekistan to Afghanistan to Pakistan to Iraq." If terrorists do "find their way to Afghanistan, with additional resources becoming available, better training and equipment, and a robust and unified international front consisting of the United States and NATO, the Afghan government will be able to counter them."

Bob Ayers of Chatham House, a London-based foreign-affairs think tank, gave a different answer as to what is likely to happen in Afghanistan if U.S. troops pull out of Iraq a la Pelosi: "We will see an ever-increasing level of radicalization, coupled with a return to more localized government based on tribal loyalties with a commensurate decreasing hold on the country by the central government."

And: "There would likely be a period of violence directed against the central government, but given the relative weakness of the central government, it is doubtful that such attacks could be resisted and stable government maintained for a protracted period of time."

Sounds like Iraq to me. As for my belief that antiwar factions would start chipping away at popular support for the war, Jawad answered, "The U.S. government and new Congress support is robust and bipartisan and long-term." I hope, if Congress does set a hard timetable to withdraw from Iraq, that Jawad is right. Clearly, he wants what is best for his country.

As an American, however, I don't see how the same arguments for pulling troops out of Iraq won't apply to the 25,000 American troops in Afghanistan.

Sure, Iraq war critics like to point out that the United States had a casus belli -- Osama bin Laden -- for entering Afghanistan. But we don't know that bin Laden is still in Afghanistan.

As the left likes to dwell on President Bush's failures, the failure to get bin Laden lends itself to defeatism.

Then there is the left's conceit that only liberals really care about the toll on U.S. troops. According to the Pentagon, as of April 14, the death toll of U.S. troops in Afghanistan was 315 since October 2001. If fighting should escalate, how long will it take before the media start reporting on benchmarks? As in: 500 dead, and what can we show for it? Canada has sacrificed, as well -- losing 54 troops in Afghanistan since 2002.

On Thursday, Liberals in Canada's Parliament introduced a motion calling for Canadian troops to be out of the NATO military mission by February 2009. Italian discontent about troops in Afghanistan forced Prime Minister Romano Prodi to step down temporarily in February. Polls show Germans want to get out, too -- even though the German government has kept its NATO troops out of harm's way. Look at the headlines from Afghanistan. "Afghan civilian death toll up in 2006/More than 1,000 people were killed, rights group says." That's from January.

"Afghan town falls to Taliban after NATO troops leave." February.

"Marine unit ordered to leave Afghanistan/They're accused of killing civilians" -- that was in March.

And this month: "Iranian-made arms seized in Afghanistan."

While Pelosi has called Afghanistan "the real war on terror," the nation is mired in internal strife and beset by jihadists, and its internal problems undermine attempts to create an infrastructure needed to make Afghans prosperous. Jawad sees long-term international will. If he were President Bush, folks would call that a "rosy scenario."

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Recipe for failure
An underfunded effort in a poorly understood country. That's a recipe for failure. Had we kept 150,000 troops in Afganistan the place just might of worked. But, as in the past, Cheney had "other priorities".

Quagmire
The antiwar left WAS against Afghanistan, until they found Iraq.

Recall, their much mentioned "support" for the invasion of Afghamnistan lasted all of 2 weeks before they started with "quagmire" and "next Vietnam". And it lasted until they found Iraq to be a better target for their criticisms.

I have no doubts that the minute the last soldier leaves Iraq we will see a "No blood for opium" sign and the protests will start in earnest to get us to withdraw from Afghanistan.


LGM
Yes, that is why our troops have been run out of Afghanistan and Taliban partisans have seized LA.

oh, wait, that hasn't happened, has it.

Not even your beloved Taliban "surge" against our troops has done much harm. We still control the nation and violence is relatively low for a recent war zone.

Sorry, we aren't going to lose Afghanistan anytime soon, unless, of course, the left helps us lose it ourselves.

Re: quagmire
Andrews:

I recall some of the left being against the war in afghanistan before it even began. Remember the references to Afghanistan as "the grave of empires," the citations that neither Great britain in the XIX century nor the USSR in the XX were able to achieve victory there? Remember the line "bombing Afghanistan will only make the rubble bounce"?

In any case, the cure for both Afghanistan and Iraq lies in Iran and Syria, and to a lesser extent in Saudi Arabia. Iran supports terrorist groups all over the world, it supports, along with Syria, the guerrillas in Iraq (both Sunni and Shia). And now it is trying to get atomic weapons.

If Bush deserves harsh criticism for anythng, it is his innaction regarding Iran. We'd ahve a much better chance, and an easier time, winning in the current war if we could persuade Iran and Syria to quit meddling. That means bombing the hell out of them, then giving them a chance to quit.

If they don't, then we remind Iran we have troops stationed East and West of Iran, and we could move them in at any time.

Buck
So, the fact that you find the conditions in Afghanistan horrible is to be taken as evidence that things are going badly?

I hate to tell you, but you are not the standard by which I judge truth.

Try some evidence.

My evidence:

1. We are still in Afghanistan
2. the gov't we put in place is still there
3. no significant troop increases in Afghanistan
4. no Taliban gov;t in Afghanistan
5. Osama still reported as being in Pakistan, not Afghanistan
6. No terrorist attacks on US soil

Says to me things are going well.

Yes, there are deaths and fights and terrorists. that is what happens during and after wars.

Seems the left will not be happy until we have a battle and casualty free war.

And, as far as hearts and minds are concerned I have only two positions: I want to stop terrorist hearts. The rest of the hearts and minds can love us or hate us, I don't care. Why do you?

Buck
1. I am not a christian. I suppose I must be called a "so-called Jew" who serves Satan if you want to slander me.
2. I do not say I enjoy casualties. I am just sane enough to know they are unavoidable in battle. (Or myabe you are just too stoned to realize that.)
3. War is unavoidable until there are no more evil men. And I don't see that happening naytime soon

So, where is that proof that things are going wrong in Afghanistan? Or is your accusation that I am a "so-called Christian" who serves "[my] master Satan" supposed to substitute for actual evidence?

Attack America
Buck, Iraq did support terrorists. Or is Ansar al_Islam just the Moslem YMCA? Who is Abu Nidal again? Didn't he actually KILL American citizens? And Zarqawi went to Iraq because Sadam hated him? I think not!

Sadam was a "secular" leader who supported Islamic militants because it helped his aims. Sorry, but that is the truth.

And, by supporting terrorists, he did attack America.

But, forget that for now. He FIRED ON US PLANES IN THE NO FLY ZONE. Get that? HE ATTACKED AMERICAN PILOTS! That is a direct atatck on the US. We had every right to invade.

Put down the bong and look at the facts. he violated terms of the ceasefire, he shot at our pilots, and he supported terrorists. Whether or not he had WMDs (and he did, we found them) he did more than enough to justify invading any nation.

Not to mention we only had a cease-fire since 1991. We were already at war. he violated the terms, so active hostilties started again.


A bit disjointed
Sorry for the rambling reply. The leftist lies get to me and I sometimes forget all the arguments I need to make.

And, face it, in the case of Iraq we have about 1000 good reasons for invading. hard to recall all of them at once.

Of course, Buck will deny that and call me a Zionist warmonger or something and say I want blood for satan or blood for oil or I am a Haliburton employee...

Stupid leftists.

Stuck on Bin Laden
Mr Buck writes: Since we went into Ashcanistan to kill bin Laden and defeat his allies, turning Afghanistan into a terrorist killing machine might've secured Bush as a champion, might've snagged Laden and might've made more sense of the utterence, "fight them over there instead of over here."
Now he's just a chump who invaded the wrong country and did nothing to catch bin laden.

Do you people really believe that if Bin Laden is killed the muslim radicals will lay down their guns and make nice? This isn't a game of chess where we kill OBL then call check mate. The Axis had the same mindset after FDR died however Truman stepped in and didn't skip a beat. He stuck to his guns until the war was over then proceeded to lead the fight against the Bolshevicks. There is no doubt that as soon as we leave Iraq Mr Buck and co will start the body count in Afghanistan. The question I have is if we leave the Iraqis in the lurch like the South Vietnamese will the Aghans think they are next and switch sides? This isn't about ideology but survival. Will the American troops who saw their sacrifice go for nothing in Iraq be willing to stick it out in Afghanistan especially if there is no end in sight? Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. I am John Doe.



ZIONIST DEFEAT IS A WIN FOR WORLD PEACE
It's time to count our losses in IRAQ Afghanistan & split!

We cannot use our tax payers money and blood of our brave soldiers to fight for the benefit of the Zionist, whose stooges are conducting this debacle at our expense.


I knew it
Well, one had to show up sooner or later.

Greeting "No blood for yarlmukes" poster! Glad to see we did not want for a "it is all a zionist conspiracy" poster.

Roadkill
I have said the same. The left seems to think bin Laden's death will cure everything. I think it is part of their clintonite "law enfrocement" approach. They see it as locking up the "kingpin" and then all will be ok.

Of course, I also pointe dout, killing bin Laden may not be in our best interest. If we know where he is, we may actually be better off monitoring him and using his contacts to hunt down his organization. Killing him just creates a martyr and deprives us of intel we may have gained by watching him rather than killing him.

But the left always ignores me when I point that out.


liberalgoodman has a point
Here are some things the Bush Administration screwed up in Afghanistan:

The successful plan to work with the Northern Alliance to topple the Taliban came NOT from Rumsfeld but from the CIA, who had been working with the Northern Alliance for some time but were never given the green light to go all-out. (That was depicted in the ABC docudrama "The Path to 9/11," which got good reviews from many conservatives.)

But the CIA couldn't stop bin Laden from escaping without total commitment by the Pentagon to send sufficient troops to Afghanistan to seal the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. When they appealed in the fall of 2001 for such help, Rumsfeld turned them down. Rumsfeld's failure to send at least 50,000 troops to Afghanistan at the time enabled Osama to escape.

Furthermore, it is now known that in 2002, Rumsfeld pulled many of our Special Forces (who were INSTRUMENTAL in the successful toppling of the Taliban) to start the groundwork for the invasion of Iraq.

Finally, of course our allies are pulling out of Afghanistan. Their peoples are totally disgusted by ALL war now, thanks to Iraq. It's just like how Vietnam soured Americans (and the populace of many of our allies) on ANY other military interventions anywhere and was responsible for the creation of a dangerous cynicism and pacifism that continues to plague us to this day. That's what happens when you fight a bloody, long, inconclusive war--it poisons the public for decades to come. That was true after World War I, it was true after Vietnam, and it's coming true again after Iraq. You can't screw up a war and have it last for years and years without tremendous negative political consequences.

Had we put everything we had--EVERYTHING--into scoring a decisive knockout victory against al-Qaeda in Afghanistan (including killing Osama) BEFORE doing Iraq, we would have a) gotten ourselves on the scoreboard against Islamic terrorism; b) shown the world that if you attack America, you are dead meat within a year; c) shown our allies and even the neutral countries that we are victorious and they should jump to the winning side--namely America.

Why did we not do that? Because the so-called neoconservatives had this peculiar theory that the global terrorism that attacked us on 9-11 "had to be" state-sponsored AND that Saddam had to be one of the most important regimes sponsoring it. This bizarre theory, which was NOT supported by the U.S. intelligence community or even the Israeli intelligence community, came from cranks like Laurie Mylroie:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0312.bergen.html

She sold it to men like Wolfowitz and Perle, who eventually helped sell it to the Bush Administration.
She even said that Clinton fabricated the whole idea of al-Qaeda as a way to distract Americans from the "real enemy"--Saddam!

In fact, she even gave a presentation to the 9-11 Commission in which ONCE AGAIN she tried to link 9-11 to Saddam. They didn't believe her, of course.

There you have it, folks. The Smoking Gun you've always wanted. Our entire strategy for fighting the War on Terror originated with a crackpot who spun a theory about terrorism that had NO BASIS in fact.

And THAT, kiddies, is why we could lose in Afghanistan. We had the wrong vision and the wrong strategy all along. It's as if back in 1941, President Roosevelt had decided that somewhere behind Japan and Germany and Italy, the "real" enemy that was secretly pulling all the strings of these other nations was Spain, and so FDR decides to go to war against Spain instead.

SteveL
On the basis of one Washington Monthly article we are to believe this conspiracy theory that the entire administration was msiled by one person into losing the war on terror?

I find that a bit of a stretch.

Rather, we went to Iraq because Sadam was vioplating a ceasefire and sheltering terrorists. He ahd been pursuing WMDs (whether or not he had any in his hands) and appeared willing to give them to terrorists.

Lastly, do you really think Russia or France or Iran would be in our corner if only we had killed OBL?

Give me a break!


Mr Buck
Are you out of your mind. "yeah, you'd hate that, wouldn't you? particularly when all those women and children are killed as collateral damage " If anything the US is going to great lengths to aviod collateral damage. Precision bombs and missles cost much more than plain old projectiles. If we didn't care about civilian casualties we would carpet bomb .much like WWII and Vietnam. Also we aould target mosques where the terrorist find sanctuary.

roadkill58
Yes they really believe that. Trust me. The only logic libtards have is of the simpleton kind.

Iraq Debacle & Afghanistan
Had we tended to Afghanistan and not been misled by neocons, chickenhawks, war profiteers and Iraqi exiles into invading Iraq, the war on Al Qaeda may have been won already. Afghanistan might have become a truye and stable democracy. Instead, we blew it. Now we are witnessing the resurgence of Al Qaeda and the Taliban and a second front against our courageous troops in the Middle East.

Read the 'accomplishments' so far of the Iraq War - and weep:
(1) the death of Saddam and his equally evil sons;
(2) 3200 innocent US military killed, over 20,000 injured, many maimed for life.
(3) tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed;
(4) alienation of most of our allies who had gone with us into Afghanistan, something we had to do after 9-11 - attack the terrorists;
(5) the USA now among the most disrespected countries in the world, with only Israel, North Korea and Iran ranking lower'
(6) Iran emboldened and more powerful;
(7) Iraq likely to become an Islamic theocracy, while before Saddam was a secularist despised by bin Laden as an infidel. Women, by the way, were treated quite well in Saddam's time - did not need to be covered and usually weren't. Christians treated well, also. This does not excuse Saddam, of course. He gassed his own people, by the way, when we were supporting him!
(8) Osama bin Laden still missing;
(9) USA spending billions upon billions, going deeper and deeper into debt - a trillion or more on that war before we get out of Iraq;
(10) military-industrial complex (remember Ike's warning) pocketing billions in profit, some of it stolen;
(11) American people, united after 9-11, now in bitterly opposing camps;
(12) burden of Iraq falling on very few Americans - the rest living as usual;
(13) war now on two fronts, with the Taliban and Al Qaeda reemerging in Afghanistan while our attention and military have been distracted by Iraq;
(14) Israel is in greater danger, along with our other Middle East allies. Ironically, the Israeli lobby and its American fans pushed hard for our invasion of Iraq. Israel was the only nation outside the USA where most of the people approved of our preemptive attack.
(15) we had been warned about WMDs and assured by many 'experts' - Chalibi, Wolfowitz, Feith, etc. - that we would be welcomed with flowers, that the war would be over very soon, that Iraqi oil would pay for the war, and other nonsense.

That's 15 - a round number so we'll leave it at that. Remember, too, that the Pope and most mainline USA Protestant churches opposed the invasion of Iraq.

We should be remembering and paying tribute to those young people who have lost their lives serving the USA overseas - and, now, too, those collegians who were massacred at Virginia Tech. Enormous tragedies.



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