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Saturday, February 24, 2007
Dean Barnett :: Townhall.com Columnist
Target Romney
by Dean Barnett
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The mainstream media’s fascination with Mitt Romney is rather odd. After all, Romney is still a second tier presidential contender who has but a fraction of the name recognition of more famous politicians like John McCain, Rudy Giuliani, Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama. And yet the press’ ranking obsession as far as the presidential race is concerned has been to relentlessly peddle a narrative that Mitt Romney is an unprincipled flip-flopper.

Why has Romney received so much of the media’s peculiar brand of tender loving care? After all, while New York’s former mayor did deservingly become a national hero after his courageous response to the 9/11 attacks, the Rudy Giuliani Story has many juicy nuggets that are not widely known to the public outside the five boroughs. And yet the national media to date seems curiously uninterested in such matters.

On the other side of the aisle, Hilary Clinton has been unable to square her varying positions regarding the war in Iraq. Unlike Romney on the social issues, her “evolution” on the key issue of the day remains a work in progress. If the press wanted to check out the former first lady’s present-day gyrations, it could breathlessly describe a flip-flop as it emerges from its cocoon.

And then there’s Barack Obama. If ever a political candidate seemed worthy of getting the investigative juices of the media flowing, Obama would be the guy. He has emerged as a top tier presidential contender after a mere two years as a national figure. What’s more, his tenure in the Senate has been uneventful. He has authored no significant pieces of legislation nor has he delivered any speeches of note since his keynote address at 2004’s Democratic National Convention. You’d think the question of who Barack Obama is beyond the glittering image would be a matter of some interest. But it isn’t for the press.

To date, only Mitt Romney has received the scrutiny of the national media. Again, why?

TO START WITH THE OBVIOUS, MITT ROMNEY IS THE most conservative candidate in the field who has, at present, a chance of winning. The press doesn’t like conservatives, or at the very least, is more hostile to conservatives than it is to liberals. The press sees everything regarding a conservative in the worst possible light; liberals are more likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

A second reason is that Mitt Romney doesn’t look like a politician should, or at least the way the media thinks a Republican politician should. Given that Romney is constantly praised for his patrician demeanor, his impeccable manner and his smooth-as-silk politicking, I know this point is counter-intuitive, but bear with me.

The press has come to expect Republicans to fit certain molds. They are supposed to be inarticulate and not quick on their feet. The press has stereotyped every Republican presidential nominee since Ford in this way. They are also supposed to be intellectually unimaginative or downright unintelligent. Again, every Republican presidential nominee since Ford has had to live with this label. They are further required to be creatures of politics who have accomplished nothing or next to nothing outside of the political world. Lastly, all Republicans ought to have a bit of Elmer Gantry in them. They should preach about morality and piety, but they should always be obliging enough to have at least a few skeletons jangling in their closet.

Mitt Romney fails to live up to any of these stereotypes. Glib and articulate, it’s hard to imagine Romney ever fearing a press conference or a debate. Intellectually, Romney graduated Harvard’s Business and Law Schools with top honors. Furthermore, it seems like he’s completely unfamiliar with the media dictates that Republicans should wrestle with English like it’s a hostile foreign language and make themselves available for lampooning as dullards.

Even more gratingly, Mitt Romney didn’t become a full-time politician until 2002. Until then, he had been a phenomenally successful businessman who had made hundreds of millions of dollars in a fiercely competitive industry while earning a reputation for honesty and intellectual probity.

Lastly, and probably most frustratingly for the media, the Romney closet is depressingly barren. When Mitt Romney talks about family values, he’s able to point to his own wife of 40 years and a brood of children and grandchildren that seems too good even for a Christmas card.

In short, Mitt Romney is more formidable than a Republican presidential candidate has any right being. He is a fat target in a way that a guy like Mike Huckabee never could be, even if Huckabee hadn’t lost all that weight.

NONE OF WHICH IS TO SAY THE PRESS’ ATTACKS are entirely without merit. Romney’s positions on social issues, most prominently abortion, have changed (or evolved) in recent years. The press has concluded with predictable hostility that these changes reflect an unappealing opportunistic streak that marks Romney’s character. Because these changes have become such an issue, Romney will have to offer a more compelling explanation for his current positions than he has to date. The fact on the ground, fair or not, is that some observers have decided that Mitt Romney’s core convictions don’t run deep. The candidate and his campaign will have to deal with this matter.

But as far as the press is concerned, one question determinedly lingers: To paraphrase Bob Dole, where was the similar outrage when Al Gore and Dick Gephardt had similar evolutions, albeit ones that ran in the opposite direction?

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About The Author

Dean Barnett blogs almost daily at HughHewitt.com. He has also been a frequent contributor to the Weekly Standard's online edition, The Daily Standard. He can be reached for comment at soxblog@aol.com.

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Reenie---Bush endorsement where??
"Bush is backing him." Where did you hear or read that? Last I heard, Pres. Bush said he was not getting into endorsing any of the candidates.

The court is still out
on Romney. He has to show me he isn't a NE liberal in disguise.

Romney is no liberal in disguise
Vic, he's no liberal in disguise at at all. For example, there's no "disguise" when it comes to his position on abortion. Goto youtube and search Romney Kennedy debate.

BTW, I'll take a NE liberal (disguise or no disguise) over another cowboy businessman any day.

only Mitt Romney?
"To date, only Mitt Romney has received the scrutiny of the national media."

What are you talking about? I noticed you didn't mention any examples. Are you talking about the Boston Globe? I wouldn't consider that national media. You better toughen up your skin Dean.

People are scared of Mormons
because the only ones they ever see are the freaks. I'm old enough to remember the same freakish designation attached to JFK and the relentless argument that he was only a puppet of the Pope.

Of course, JFK turned out to be a crook, an adulterer and a bear of little brain pots of money made in bootlegging by the world's most dysfunctional family, so eventually everyone forgot he had ever been a Catholic at all.


How bout some balance in here?
Kathy, I'm not sure where you came up with the notion that Romney authorized gay marriage. It was actually the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachussets who authorized gay marriage. To the contrary, Romney made clear his opposition to the ruling and sought to enact legislation that would limit the scope of the court's holding.

If you look at the totality of Romney's political positions, it is clear that he is no liberal, or a "liberal in disguise." And what about this unrealistic expectation that politicians should never adjust their opinions? Do we expect that politicians should cement their views at age 18 and never deviate from them for the duration of their political lives? How many of us had all the answers at such an early age? And by the way, how well has unwavering commitment to an idea served our current President? Its a ridiculous standard; instead, we should hope for leaders with conviction, but who are thoughtful and intelligent enough to modify their views under appropriate circumstances.

AudiR10, what "freaks" are you talking about? I'd love to hear you try to back that accusation up.

Flip-Flop
Pure conservatives do not trust Romney as he has flip-flopped on various conservative issues (typical for a RINO). In the past he voted with liberals on many issues, yet now he expects conservatives to believe what he's changed, thinking as a pure conservative.
Politicians tell voters what they want us to believe so as to get elected, after which those "promises" mean little. Rather than believing the propaganda which Romney spews forth, validate his promises with his past voting records. If they match, he's believable - if they don't, he's not believable.

Again, what are you talking about?
"A second reason is that Mitt Romney doesn’t look like a politician should, or at least the way the media thinks a Republican politician should."

You're joking right?

"In short, Mitt Romney is more formidable than a Republican presidential candidate has any right being."

Your man crush on Romney has just become painfully embarrassing.

pure conservatives
Anti-socialist, what exactly is a "pure conservative" and who among the current candidates fits your definition?

I agree with you to the extent that past voting records are instructive, but I disagree that they should be decisive. The world is a complicated place, full of complicated issues. I return to my previous point: no one person should assume they have all the answers and entrench themselves in positions that are later shown to be incorrect in light of additional information. I doubt we, in general, hold ourselves to such a lofty standard.


Kathy
You are absolutely wrong on Romney and gay marriage. For what really happened in Massachusetts, see:

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/front_page/mitt_romney_chose_gay_marriage.php

The author of the article is David French, a constitutional lawyer and prominent evangilcal blogger.

Flip-flop
When I hear that term used I think of those politicians that go from here to there and BACK

Re-Flip-Flops
Those who label Romney as a flip-flopper don't know the real truth. For two great documents that show Romney's real views from 1994 to now, see:

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/massresistance/therealtruth.pdf

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/massleaders/massleaders.pdf

The key is what Romney's actions were when he was governor.

Flip-flop (cont.)
Mit Romney has earned a deserved reputation for studying a situation thoughroly before taking action. That is how he earned his fortune, solved the Salt Lake Olympics debacle and became a republican governor of one of the most liberal states in America. Not at all typical of our present day politicians. You will have to show where Mit has changed his position and then gone back to his original stance before calling him a flip-flopper. Can't be done.

Dear anti-socialist
I find it interesting that you refer to Mitt Romney's voting record when in fact he has held one term in elected office, and that term was as governor of a state. Last time I checked, governors, unlike legislators, don't vote on legislation. As such, would you please care to explain just what voting record you are referring to?

I know it it so easy to find fault with Romney when you are already predisposed to hate him. Before launching into tirades supported by rhetoric and incomplete views of the facts, please do take the time to look at the whole picture of the man before dismissing him.

Do remember that he was a Republican governor of the most liberal state in the nation. As such, his record on the economy and health care in Massachussetts is quite impressive. He "voted" with his pen in vetoing measures to legalize pro-abortion measures and did everything in his power to stop gay marriage. (He is in favor of equal rights for Americans, not marriage for everyone. There is a difference).

In the past, we conservatives have welcomed candidates who have moved from the center and to the right. Our beloved Reagan, much like Romney, was a centrist governor in a very liberal California whose own move to the right was warmly welcomed, and indeed, now championed in the annals of conservative lore. Why the opposite treatment for Romney, especially amidst a field of two front runners who have far more problems than Romney when it comes to the social issues that matter to conservatives.

Flip Flop
I find it interesting that they only can find examples from 1994 that conservatives would disagree with, and that the media is taking great pains to point them out while simultaneously ignoring changes the other politicians have made... I've researched a bit Romney's record as Governor, and seeing it was over the most liberal state in the union has given me hope as to what he accomplished.

But here's what I would ask... Flip flopping for political points is bad, as John Kerry taught so eloquently in the last election. Hitlery changes positions almost daily. But how is it a bad thing if the worst changes they can find on Romney were more than a decade ago? Isn't it a good thing if the candidate becomes more conservative? Why would Townhallers condemn anyone for growing more conservative?

I love Mitt
Mitt is the only true conservative in the field. The liberals hate him becase they know that he can win if the conservatives of America get behind him.
They will call black white and white black to deceive the people of America as to his true colors.

I knew him as a student at Harvard. I have followed him through mutual friends since. I guarantee that he is a true conservative. He is the hope of America.

Dean Barnett is right on target!!!

Brick..
Disapproving of one's political beliefs or religious beliefs does not translate into hate of the person. You must be a member of Romney's cult to insinuate that I hate him.

Mitt Romney is not hard to figure at all
First of all .... you should not doubt much when the smartest conservatives .. and people who know him well personally have endorsed and supportd him in his social and political conservative bonafides .. . James Bopp, Jim DeMint, Dennis Hastert, Hugh Hewitt, Bill O'Reilley, and the top conservatives in Florida ...


His personal feelings on abortion would have always been against it .... As to whether it should be illegal, he did have personal experience that informed his early position .. his mother was outspoken in support of allowing woman to choose ... and he too .. probably because a close family member died in an illegal abortion ... He agreed with the voters of Massachusetts to not try to outlaw abortions .. which he had little power over anyway ... He never was for abortion .. and he vetoed several acts of the legislature which gave more access to morning after pills, or embryos for experiments ...

What anti Mitt conspiracy?
It seems the Boston Globe is negatively obsessed with Romney, but it appears his biggest problem is he is not getting enough coverage. If Romney does not gain traction with GOP voters--whose fault is that?

Are you negatively obsessed with Edwards? I don't think you are, but Edwards was the hot story for the conservatives with House of Two Americas and his foul mouthed bloggers. It took Geffen to start a stone throwing war between Hillary and Obama to shift the story.

health coverage
I also live in Mass. Not one person has mentioned the terrible health coverage that he like Mike Dukakis left and then left to run for the president. The system is so bad it will take years to figure it out and of course before it is figured out it will take affect July 1st. That is Socialism. The system is terrible. I have great coverage and because of the law I might have to buy more because I don't have Prescription coverage. Or I will loose my tax refund.
I don't want him for president.
Oh yea, He abandoned his state and his running mate to run for president

Anti Socialist
Apologies for the "hate" insinuation. I can see how the reference could be perceived as over the top. For the record, I didn't mean it in the pejorative sense used in the PC world, and I apologize for the carelessness.

Now, care to address the rest of my post?

Also, I do question your use of the "cult" label. Methinks your hubris is showing.

Liberal Press?
Where has this liberal press been for the last 6 years? Methinks Mr. Barnett drank the Koolade, along with many other of our fellow citizens. If it were not so, we wouldn't be in the predicament we're in now, where no one . . . .no one, knows how to extricate us from our folly.

Mitt on Gay Marriage, and children
Kathy,
Show me where Mitt Authorized Gay marriage, please show me. From what I understand the courts of Mass. did that, NOT Mitt.
Where do you get he is no friend of children.
As far as I'm concerned, NO one BUT states or the Supreme court can do a dang thing about abortion. As Govenor, they can't do a thing, UNLESS it is on the ballot in Mass.
BUT here's the part that I'm for, he is NOT for Illegal Immigration. Look what that chief enabler John McCain, did to his own state of Arizona, he let it go on so long, NOW it has infected EVERY state. You can bet the kitchen sink, if anyone interfered the way McCain did with some of President Bush's programs, the man would go nuts, ever heard of his famous temper?
Unless the Illegal invasion has affected you, don't say it doesn't matter, go to some small town like my Daughter's where they have taken over sections of town, with their own Mexican stores. NOT speaking English. NOT assimilating, doing the jobs legal US citizens WERE DOING. THAT is one of the most important things to me. Sure slap down one of the best family men and go for the Liberal Republicans.
So if it isn't a problem in your area, it probably doesn't rank high on your list of things, but it is a BIG PROBLEM in my area. Affecting my Family. So I'm going with the one who will probably enforce the laws on the books we already have. Just watch sometime next week, the McCain/Kennedy MORE LIBERAL Senate bill will be out there for you to see, wanting to give law breakers, you know, the ones who may be your neighbors a pathway to citizenship, after bilking this nation out of billions with their free babies (anchor babies) that you paid for. Then sending their billions back to Mexico. Like the sound of it??? I don't

Brick
All RINOs have a "cult" following...

(Not taking a stand against abortion (killing for convenience) justifies the label of RINO.)

Romney endorsed by Bush?!?!?
How about at least doing a Google search, it only takes a few seconds, and see how far that statement lasts. The fact of the matter is that the Texas Bush Machine has four-square behind Giuliani. These are the same people that brought us Enron (Ken Lay, George Kinder, California electricity "shortage", etc..), open-borders and a host of other issues anathema to conservatives.

http://www.observer.com/20070205/20070205_Anna_Schneider-Mayerson_pageone_newsstory3.asp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/6362783.stm

We have TEN MONTHS before the primaries begin and ALMOST TWO YEARS before the elections. That is an ETERNITY in politics. Let's use that time to LEARN the facts and remember our guiding principles in figuring out what we want FROM our politicians. There is no justification for all of this shrill, panicky howling. The path to a conservative victory in 2008 leads to or through Romney and away from McCain/Giuliani. Why don't we start comparing the relative merits of Romney vs Hunter for a change? If you follow the logic of many of these commenters, the only thing that counts is a GOP victory, even if it means drafting a crippled Hillary because Obama is even worse and the polls show that Hillary would beat Obama head-to-head in a general election. That's the way Red Sox, Cubs and Indian fans think (I'm a Red Sox fan). This isn't baseball.

anti-socialist
You write: "Not taking a stand against abortion (killing for convenience) justifies the label of RINO."

My response: and therefore justifies the label of "cult?"

Also, was Reagan a RINO? After all, he signed pro-abortion legislation as governor of California that had grave consequences. Mitt Romney, on the other hand, vetoed pro-abortion legislation while governor of Massachussetts. I am profoundly grateful for Reagan's move to the right on abortion, and for the positions he took as President. If that makes me a member of a RINO "cult," so be it.

also, still waiting for details on that voting record you speak of . . .

Or another angle
The strongest candidate the Democrats have is Rudy Giuliani and they have figured out a way to put him on the Republican ballot while running a flimsy pixelated image as their "official" candidate! We have almost a year to prevent that. Let's stop wasting our time. Drop the RINO and neo-con pejoratives and start evaluating the candidates' merits on specific issues. At the moment, Romney is the only serious candidate poised to win and accomplish conservative progress. If conservatives don't think he is a "true" conservative, use Romney to keep the door open for that candidate. Right now, there are too many "conservatives" drinking the MSM kool-aid by stumbling over each other in their efforts to slam the door shut for anyone but McCain or Giuliani. People are not doing much thinking. Maybe they should instead just focus their energies on Anna Nicole/Brittney Spears. At least there are no consequencies for the rest of us.

Romney's compass?
I honestly do not know yet where Romney's agenda compass points. Our system has become so perception and money driven that we seem to end up with choices that neither party is really enamored about-- odd isn't it? Hubert Humphrey said tellingly of Jimmuh carter: there is a difference between the ability to gain election and the capacity to govern. The MM both make and break candidates-- see Howard Dean-- they like drama... and closet libs (Sen. Juan McQuisling).

Dubya did not really beat Gore... the electorate was SO divided by the Hobson's choice that SCOTUS had to make a call. The 'Crats backed into Kerry, the feckless windsurfer gigolo public traitor (with the changed surname and religion) who had managed to accomplish NOTHING in 18 years in the Senate.

So far, I cannot discern who Romney really is, but he is NOT amnesty champion gadfly John McQuisling, who put his name on two WRETCHED bills with far lefters Feingold and Teddy Chappaquiddock.... and he is NOT the amoral Hildabeest... that leaves at least some hope for him-- for now. Rudy has embraced ILLEGALS way too much for my support-- we will lose America FOREVER if we cannot stop Scamnesty for 60-100 million undereducated indigent "new Americans" (Heritage estimate of effects of Kennedy-McQuisling Scamnesty) who would inevitably remake it into a third world entitlement state.

Kathy
Please take time to carefully read the articles refered to by macfan1950.
It seems you have fallen victim to the propaganda and lies of MassResistance. I hope that as a bright, conservative individual you can see through the deception this group is promulgating and that you can realize that if you cherish conservative ideals, Romney seems to be a clear choice.

Romney
There is time people. Let us see who can run this minefield. I do like Romney,Duncan Hunter, and Tom Tancedo (sp). How they weather this long campaign will be interesting. I like so many others have been betrayed by the RNC. I naively thought they would support those most like Conservatives. I also foolishly counted on them to not support someone who would say anything to be elected. Look what we got in Texas. Rick Perry who immediatly after election repudiated all efforts to take care of our border.Following the footsteps of our Pres. Because of this betrayal I refuse to form an opinion. My process is to weed and hope not to be betrayed again.

Kathy
You wrote: "As a conservative, I wanted Romney all the way, untill I found out he authorized gay marriage in Mass. As The governor he could have refered all potential gay marriages to his office, untill the legality was decided, but no he authorized it and then discontiued blood test for marriage. Know I know what a dishonest and so on and so on he is."

Did you even read the article I linked earlier? Mitt did *not* authorize gay marriage in Mass! If you did, you're making yourself look silly. If you didn't, then take a look at this and tell me how you can say the Mitt authorized gay marriage:

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/front_page/mitt_romney_chose_gay_marriage.php

Poor Confused Dean
Save some pity for the "Executive" Recruiter - when his master has put his considerable weight behind Romney, the recruiter disciple can't afford to go against his master's instructions.

So, he ignores facts and just blindly attacks anyone who questions Lord Mitt.


Kimberly
Did you read the articles I linked about about Romney's so-called flip-flops? If you did, you are refusing to acknowledge the facts. If you didn't then go to:

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/massresistance/therealtruth.pdf

http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/massleaders/massleaders.pdf

Kathy, Wake UP!
I am reminded of a couplet by Alexander Pope,
"All seems infected that the infected spy,
As all seems yellow to the jaundiced eye."

You continue to get your information from massresistance.com when others have referred you to more accurate and truthful websites which would help you understand the the error of your position.

Please do a littel research before making bogus claims. I refer you to "An Open Letter Regarding Governor Mitt Romney" (Just Google that phrase) to find out what many respected social conservatives from Massachusetts say about Governor Romney.

If you have not had the benefit of a legal education, then perhaps you could rely on those of us who have for an interpretation of whether the Supreme Court or Governor Romney authorized gay marriage. Not even the liberal pundits on TV, who have little affection for Romney, support you in your view.

Romney - Bush Clone
Even though Bush had an excellent record as governor of Texas (he even got an "A" from the Cato Institute) he was a terrible president.

Yet it shouldn't come as a surprise to us since in 2000 GW Bush told us exactly where he stood when he scolded his fellow Republicans for " trying to balance the budget on the backs of the poor". No one makes a statement like that who isn't a big government believer.

Romney can't even claim to be a good governor when he institutes compulsory health insurance. But if he is elected you can be certain that spending will rise uncontrollably and liberty will diminish.

Look at the field of Republicans-

McCain - Big government
Romney - Big Government
Giuliani - Huge government

Look at their opponents -

Clinton - Huge government
Obama - Huge government
Kucinich - Soviet Style Government

This is a choice? 40 lashes, 60 lashes or 100 lashes?

We're not choosing a president, we're choosing a slave handler.

Vote gridlock - Any Republican if the Dems can hold the House and Senate, any Democrat if it looks like the Republicans can retake both houses.

When they fight with each other, they are too busy to pick our pockets or control our lives.

Social Issues
Firstly, since when did the presidential candidate need to be primarily about social issues. Unless you are a big goverment republican (that used to be an oxymoron, now its a sad fact) - I don't see what the president really needs to do.

If we are trying to establish the character of the man, fine take into consideration his views on gay marriage, abortion, et. al., but let's also take into consideration the man's personal history. Which includes a private life most of us would be proud of. Now once we've established he has a character and intellect worthy of the whit house let's talke about the really important issues for the president to deal with. Entitlements, Imigration, National Security (GWOT, Homeland, etc.).

Let's assume that Romney is wishy washy on abortion, say he's ambivalent to its legality, but personally would never support a woman getting one. Assuming he's a small goverment conservative, he could still be a supporter of judicially conservative nominess for the SJC and federal bench. On social issues, I personally don't look for someone who is going to solve problems federally: that gave us the disaster that is No Child Left Behind. Instead I want someone who will allow states decide these issues. Presidents aren't the primary cause of these issues, individual people are.

Now for me Romney needs to show a few things to finalize my support:

+ Explain is international plan: I'd like to see how he plans to leverage trade, diplomacy, state and NGO aid, and the miliitary to bring about our goals. The single biggest flaw with GWB is that only the military is pulling its weight.

+ Explain how he will reform the disaster known as our tax code + social security + medicair/medicaid.

+ Explain his plan for judicial nominees, here is where he'll need convince people that are primarily going to vote based on gay marriage and prolife issues (which is not optimal voting patern, in my opinion, when selecting a president) that he'll continue to stock the federal benches and SJC with people that will not create law from the bench.

RomneyCare
Mandatory health insurance. Hahahahahahhahaha. You must not have seen all the uninsured free riding here in MA. Why get insurance when you can just free load off the suckers that pay for their own insurance?

Kathy's Right
Back before there was a debate about gay marriage, there was no war and everyone got a long in Eden. Then Cain asked to mary Able, and boom WW2 broke out.

We don't need Bush 2
The question is not Mitt Romney's flip-flops. It is whether or not Romney can win while being supported by Jeb Bush and others of the Bush family. This country does not need Bush 2. It needs a complete departure from the past 6 years.

I will support Romney until he gives his first speech to the Council on Foreigh Relations. When he does that then I will know that he is really just another puppet for the Globalists and will drop him like a hot potato.

Also, his failure to come to the aid of border guards Ramos and Compean does not make him look good. If he continues to align himself with Geo Bush postions he will ruin any chance he has at being nominated or winning.

Schtuphf
Kathy, I can't make heads or tails of your postings. If you are going to use religious euphemisms, please try to apply them to the topic at hand.

Romney's health care proposal has received a bunch of negative reviews. I admit I don't know enough about it to intelligently discuss the issue. But I know that what finally got passed was not what was originally proposed, the liberal legislature added a few extras in that Romney did not want. The main question I wonder: Are the results of the Romney plan heading in the right direction, even if it isn't a perfect reform?

I think so, because I am under the impression that part of the package helped de-regulate the insurance market there. It decreases money the state was already spending on healthcare and re-allocates it more purposefully. Finally, it doesn't compel anyone, it simply says that people need to take responsibility for their own insurance instead of relying on the state. I don't like the use of a tax to punish that, but I believe that was one of the liberal additions to the original proposal...

Its not the health care plan I would propose, but it seems to me to be based on conservative principles, and I am impressed he got it passed in a state that makes the Soviet Union look red...

We've got two years until the elections. I'm eager to hear some actual issues addressed by Romney before I make my decision. I once heard him speak on education, and he was right on in every way. I'll see what he says about other things as bwright pointed out:
-Privatize social security.
-Flat tax
-Immigration
-War on Islamofacists
-and general conservative principles overall...

Bravado, re: what "freaks"
Here's a list of recent media freak exposure for you:

a: The day Romney announced he was running for president, one of the "news" shows had a report on a "fundamentalist LDS" polygamist cult in northern AZ. The report made it sound as if the difference between the LDS church and the "fundamentalists" was equivalent to the differences between Anglicans and Episcopalians.

b: The manhunt and trial of Warren Jeffs, the so called "prophet" of the Colorado City, AZ polygamist group, has received national news coverage for forcing underaged girls to marry.

c: The Krakauer book "Under the Banner of Heaven" told the story of another violent polygamist cult with "ties" to the LDS church.

d: The HBO series "Big Love" depicts the daily life of a polygamist family.

e: Harry Reed.

Okay, so I'm mostly kidding about that last one. The rest of these groups, whether real or fictional, are apostates with no true affiliation with the LDS church. Nevertheless, they are the images of "mormonism" that are most frequently depicted in the public forum. I think these were the "freaks" to which AudiR10 was referring.

As for the rest of us, our own leaders have said we would be "a peculiar people." Your run-of-the-mill "Mormons" are "freaks" because we don't drink, smoke or swear. Because we believe in total sexual abstinence before marriage and absolute fidelity after marriage. Because we procreate. Because we believe that God actually did create man in His own image. And because we take literally Christ's commandment to be like him. Etc...

I take no personal offense when someone who doesn't have the full picture of my religion calls me a freak.


New Story on his faith today
Dean, your timing is good. Reuters published a story today, "Pressure on Romney to firmly address Mormon faith," By Jason Szep.

The story, here:

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyID=2007-02-24T163057Z_01_N23480788_RTRUKOC_0_US-USA-POLITICS-ROMNEY.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-L3-Politics+NewsNews-2

is datelined Boston, and once again raises the spectre of Mormonism being a "cult" religion, with the suggestion that Mitt might be "talking" to one of the elders, who talks directly to the Lord.

Frankly, press the drumbeat is beginning to look a bit like religious bigotry, especially when you have a reporter quoting some heckler in a Florida crowd, which the reporter quickly notes is "a powerful state in the nominating process."

ONE UNIDENTIFIED HECKLER!

For crying out loud, it could have been the reporter -- or his brother, helping to set up the story.

Kimberly please explain
Kimberly, please explain what you mean by what goes around comes around. To bite their lying, scheming, frickin arses.
You mean the retoric on the war? If you check, since the late 1990's, Kerry, Shillary, Kennedy, et al were out there screaming about the weapons of mass destruction, and that Saddam had to go, just remember, it didn't come just from President Bush, the same President the press doesn't call President, just Bush, but still call the womanizer Clinton President. So don't go shoveling all that crapola on the Republicans.
Also, we had Fancy Nancy out there with the "corruption" BS, then she wants to put Murtha on as head of the chamber? Then she puts "freezer boy" Jefferson on the Homeland Security committee? Different strokes for different folks. But don't go there on the lying, scheming stuff without looking at what the Dems said.

A not so slight omission
What this column fails to mention, is more noteworthy than what it tells you. Nowhere is it stated that Romney is a Mormon, or, as they prefer to be known "latter day saint". I think it is a factor well worth consideration.
The Mormon Church is not a Christian Church.
This is a Theocratic White Supremacy organization which pretty well runs politics in Utah.
The history of the LDS is great reading, for all of the wrong reasons.
We don't need an LDS President.
Are there no genuine God-Fearing Bible Believing candidates, but that we must troll the bottoms for an abberant cult figure like Romney and the LDS?
What you believe does matter.

Muscat
Thank you for your post. The great thing about anti-mormon bashing is that it is so obvious to those who read it. Rather like liberals, in a sense...

Hatred of Mormons is one area where the left has tagged Christians as intolerant correctly. Tell me, if Mormons aren't Christian, what do you believe makes someone Christian? And how does that apply to the issue at hand?

But for what it is worth, history of the LDS people is great reading. You should try it sometime, rather than taking your talking points from anti-Mormon literature or professional religionists with a conflict of interest in the matter...

Muscat post filled with distortions &
lies, such as these 2 examples:

1. The Mormon Church "pretty well runs politics in Utah."

If so, how did Salt Lake City get as mayor the liberal anti-religion Rocky Anderson who picked all sorts of fights with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? (Note the REAL NAME of the "Mormon" church, which acknowledges our CENTRAL BELIEF in our Savior, JESUS CHRIST.)

2. "Are there no genuine God-Fearing Bible Believing candidates, but that we must troll the bottoms for an abberant cult figure like Romney and the LDS?"

Mormons definitely believe in The Bible. The 8th of the 13 Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints states:

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

(For those with other questions about what Mormons REALLY believe, you might want to checkout http://www.mormon.org, where one can also click on "worship with us" to find out where and the meeting times for the local congregations closest to you. Non-members are always welcome.)

Kimberly is an internet seagull
She swops in, squawks a lot, drops a load of $#!t and then flys back to liberal lala land.

Mitt Romney
Mitt Romney is by far the most qualified and BEST VIABLE conservative candidate running in 2008.

Conservatives need to wise up before we lose the opportunity to make America's future bright fiscally and socially.

Look no futher than Mitt. He can do it and his wife Ann will make a great First Lady.

Go get em Mitt.

Sam
So, you are trying to crack a joke or something? Or, maybe you're playing the ol' reverse phsychology thing on us?

Whatever you are trying to do, you are absolutely wrong on every point. All you have to do is look at Romney's record in Massachusetts and you'll see.

Now, if you can show me where I'm wrong, I'll back down. Any link to something he's said or done that back up your statements will do. I'll be totally surprised if you come up with anything. But, I'm willing to look at what you come up with.

Are you willing to do the same for me?

Re: Rationality in this thread
Mitt Romney hates puppies, worships Satan by the Charles River on moonlit nights, is the leader of the North American Union, and is responsible for the implementation of the BCS.

Salem witches -> Massachusetts

Romney -> Governor of Massachusetts!

Coincidence? I think not.

ralph nader to run agaist hillary
dear editor,
since ralph nader has a new book out "the seventeen traditions" and a new film that is on going in alot of the theaters he is going to run for 2008. its pretty bad whean clinton and obama are on a bad cat fight I would like to see mr nader debait one or 2 of these candidates hopfully he will be running real soon and I think it would be a great candidate to go up agaist clinton and obama.

sincerly
tom chastain tampa fla 813-832-3520

OK, I get it now...
...you guys are trying to prove Dean's point. Thanks!

Politics in the United States
It is an amazing thing to me to see politics in America. I read about people with differing opinions go at each other as if they had an idea of what presidential candidates have in their hearts.

There are several statements about Mr. Romney who is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There are statements that suggest that Mormons are a cult. I find this statement to be uninformed. In my experience, the LDS Church has not participated in government. If so, I would be interested in how the LDS church influenced Mr. Romney's decisions in Massachusetts or how they have influenced anything that Senator Harry Reid (Democrat from Nevada and US Senate Majority Leader). If Mormons are so terrible for the Democrats, why did they elect one as the Senate Majority Leader? If the religion is really as terrible as people claim it is, shouldn't we have doubts about the Democrats who placed Senator Reid is such a responsible post while at the same time bad mouthing the religion?

In terms of the LDS Church's participating in government in Utah, I find this amazing to me in light of Scott Matheson (Democrat Governor of Utah) and not a member of the LDS faith.

The truth of the matter about the LDS Church participating in government affairs is this, "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and majistrates in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law" (Fifth Article of Faith).
I think this article summarizes the LDS Church's position on government.

My personal opinion of Mr. Romney is that he is the only one who can handle a democratic house and senate. He proved that in Massachusetts. What other candidate has handled the Democrats with such success? Guiliani? McCain? Does anyone think they can handle a Democratic House or Senate with the success Romney has?

In terms of the "flip-flopping," how is it that people make judgements on a person for enlightenment and open-mindedness as opposed to changing their minds. I wonder how many people responding to this blog have ever changed their opinion on any issue because they learned something new that they had not considered before.

In terms of presidential elections, I am beyond shocked and amazed. It appears to my limited perspective the these elections have become a measuring rod to show the amount of discrimination in our country. It appears to me that the press does not believe in the discrimination laws dealing with religion. Other candidates running for president include a woman and a black-man with a Muslim heritage. It is obvious to me that while discrimination is against the law, it is not during Presidential elections. I suppose it is an opportunity for everyone to share their true feelings which demonstrates for me just how discriminating this country really is.

mittsthebest
Why do you believe Mitt Romney is conservative?

Mitt Romney
Why all the attention on Romney? Democrats and the MSM fear him the most.Checkout "Weakest link" http://francosimpson.townhall.com

Who dun it?
OK which one of you guys above told Kimberly to read something?

You insulted her and she left.

Kimberly is illiterate and very sensitive about it. (And about Obama's big ears.)

A decent man for troubled times...
All the GOP candidates have their own strong points.

But there is one who stands out as a decent man for troubled times:
Congressman Duncan Hunter.

Research for yourself:
http://www.gohunter08.com

Why?
1. He knows how to win - has won big re-elections many terms in his district.
As a Californian, he may well bag that state's rich pot of electoral votes!!!
2. Relevant experience - former Chairman of House Armed Services Committee.
3. Good speaker - gets his point across, and brings you to like him. Check out the videos on his site.
4. Has the right position on the most important issues.
5. The only candidate who has success dealing with illegal immigration.
6. Solid life history and family background. Enlisted, became decorated Army Ranger, life-long active in conservative Republican circles.

Oil
If the US economy collapses, other countries get sent back to the dark ages.

We provide the biggest economy to buy goods and manufactured products from everybody. Our armies are the reason much of the free world is protected whether they want to admit it or not. Everyone who has bought debt from us (e.g. China) needs for us to capable of paying it back in the future. The U.S. doesn't disappear in a vacuum-it creates a black hole that would swallow other nations whole with it. For all their bluster, other countriess would be committing suicide if they actually attempted to turn the U.S. into 20s Germany.

Among them-Iran. Iran produces 3.979 million barrels a day. By itself-the U.S. produces double that. However - we’re also the one’s who mainly use and ultimately buy that oil (we use more oil than the entire European Union)--so if our economy collapses, they've lost a ton of customers and the price of oil collapses - the final joke’s on them.

Sam

Truth is often hard to believe and what Sam posted at 10:39 p.m. very briefly sums up where our country is at the moment. Like Sam, I have not heard from ANY candidate what he would do with the 60 trillion dollar deficit we have. (I have included Social Security and Medicare in the mix.)

Bernarke (the current Fed chairman) is merely following the template set up by Greenspan who probably has done more to wreck the U.S. economy than any other person. Don't take much stock in the MSM financial pundits. They are not economists, they are broadcasters. I brought gold and silver five years ago and I expect them to increase in value for another ten years. It will take at least that long to shake out the indebtedness we have piled up since Reagan became president.

No one in our country really wants to hear a presidential candidate talk about the financial crisis we are in because most of us are on welfare of one kind of another and we want things to stay as they are. (Oh yes, S.S. is a form of welfare! ANY kind of a government handout is welfare. It's done to get your vote.)

I have yet to see a candidate with the guts to tell it like it is. Until one comes upon the scene, we are doing nothing but kidding our selves.

Oil
"Mitt Romney is for fiat money and for a lower standard of living"

cite

"- The United States doesn't make TV's.
- We make some cars
- US does not make furniture
- US does not produce or refine oil"

But everybody who does needs other consumers to buy that stuff or their business collapse and unemployment blossoms. If the U.S. collapses, so does everybody who relies on us to buy what they make. More on that in a second.

Europe is the case in point. the dollar has decline over the past few years from 1.1-1.2 exchange rate to the euro down to 0.8.

What has that gotten Europeans? The same double digit unemployment and stagnating economies they've had for years. Meanwhile our economy continues to grow at over double the GDP rate of theirs.

Here this median household income (adjusted for inflation over the last 30 years:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104583.html

Key points:

1975 $15,848
2003 $65,093

More to the point, if you had invest in gold in 1980 you investment would have made 20%. If you had your investments tied to the New York Stock Exchange you could have made 1000%. Investing something that was priced at $600 25 years ago, hovered around $400 and is only recently spiked to around $700 is not a good plan for retirement.

Re: other markets, India has an average income of $3000 a year. China has an average income of $5000 dollars a year. So:

1. they'd need a lot more than better priced currency to provide alternative markets to the United States.

2. Their citizens need to have consistent electricity to buy new TVs. A lot of their people don't.

3. In the 1920s the U.S. was wealthy. In the 1930s it collapsed. I don't remember anybody getting rich off of that.

4. Say the dollar does collapse. The exchange India has with China, India, the EU, etc. is still the same--so what good does that do them when they try to sell the goods to the other guys?

Say Americans becomes dirt poor...how does that lead to India being able to sell more goods to France?

5. Say the dollar collapses tomorrow. Somehow, on Sunday and for eternity afterwards, it would only be worth 1% of what it is today. There's no requirement that we only use dollars to do business in the United States. So we just start using something else. Americans would just insist our companies who do business oversees start paying Americans in the currencies they earned from over there.

6. We now are by far the largest supplier of food to the world, so oil and currency rates be damned, if it comes down to it, the U.S. would have everybody else by the balls far more than they'd have us.

There's not an oligarchy that sets the currency rates and even if there was, it would take a lot more than Iran (a country that produces half as much oil as we do) tying its oil to the Euro to be able to do it.

f'n typos
sorry, here's it without them:

"Mitt Romney is for fiat money and for a lower standard of living"

cite

"- The United States doesn't make TV's.
- We make some cars
- US does not make furniture
- US does not produce or refine oil"

But everybody who does needs other consumers to buy that stuff or their businesses collapse and unemployment blossoms. If the U.S. collapses, so does everybody who relies on us to buy what they make. More on that in a second.

Europe is the case in point. the dollar has decline over the past few years from a 1.1-1.2 exchange rate to the euro down to 0.8.

What has that gotten Europeans? The same double digit unemployment and stagnating economies they've had for years. Meanwhile our economy continues to grow at over double the GDP rate of theirs.

Here, this is the median household income (adjusted for inflation over the last 30 years:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104583.html

Key points:

1975 $15,848
2003 $65,093

More to the point, if you had invested in gold in 1980 your investment would have made 20%. If you had your investments tied to the New York Stock Exchange you could have made 1000%. Investing something that was priced at $600 25 years ago, hovered around $400 and is only recently spiked to around $700 is not a good plan for retirement.

Re: other markets, India has an average income of $3000 a year. China has an average income of $5000 dollars a year. So:

1. They'd need a lot more than better priced currency to provide alternative markets to the United States.

2. Their citizens need to have consistent electricity to buy new TVs. A lot of their people don't.

3. In the 1920s the U.S. was wealthy. In the 1930s it collapsed. I don't remember anybody getting rich off of that.

4. Say the dollar does collapse. The exchange India has with China, India, the EU, etc. is still the same--so what good does that do them when they try to sell the goods to the other guys?

Say Americans become dirt poor...how does that lead to India being able to sell more goods to France?

5. Say the dollar collapses tomorrow. Somehow, on Sunday and for eternity afterwards, it would only be worth 1% of what it is today. There's no requirement that we only use dollars to do business in the United States. So, we just start using something else. Americans would just insist our companies who do business oversees start paying Americans in the currencies they earned from over there.

6. We now are by far the largest supplier of food to the world, so oil and currency rates be damned, if it comes down to it, the U.S. would have everybody else by the balls far more than they'd have us.

There's not an oligarchy that sets the currency rates and even if there was, it would take a lot more than Iran (a country that produces half as much oil as we do) tying its oil to the Euro to be able to do it.

Mitt Rocks!!!!!!!!!
Dean Barrett states the obvious, though we're happy he did.

Go Mitt, we love you!


Target Romney
By Dean Barnett
Saturday, February 24, 2007


http://townhall.com/Columnists/DeanBarnett/2007/02/24/target_romney?page=full&comments=true


The mainstream media’s fascination with Mitt Romney is rather odd. After all, Romney is still a second tier presidential contender who has but a fraction of the name recognition of more famous politicians like John McCain, Rudy Giuliani, Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama. And yet the press’ ranking obsession as far as the presidential race is concerned has been to relentlessly peddle a narrative that Mitt Romney is an unprincipled flip-flopper.

Why has Romney received so much of the media’s peculiar brand of tender loving care? After all, while New York’s former mayor did deservingly become a national hero after his courageous response to the 9/11 attacks, the Rudy Giuliani Story has many juicy nuggets that are not widely known to the public outside the five boroughs. And yet the national media to date seems curiously uninterested in such matters.

On the other side of the aisle, Hilary Clinton has been unable to square her varying positions regarding the war in Iraq. Unlike Romney on the social issues, her “evolution” on the key issue of the day remains a work in progress. If the press wanted to check out the former first lady’s present-day gyrations, it could breathlessly describe a flip-flop as it emerges from its cocoon.

And then there’s Barack Obama. If ever a political candidate seemed worthy of getting the investigative juices of the media flowing, Obama would be the guy. He has emerged as a top tier presidential contender after a mere two years as a national figure. What’s more, his tenure in the Senate has been uneventful. He has authored no significant pieces of legislation nor has he delivered any speeches of note since his keynote address at 2004’s Democratic National Convention. You’d think the question of who Barack Obama is beyond the glittering image would be a matter of some interest. But it isn’t for the press.

To date, only Mitt Romney has received the scrutiny of the national media. Again, why?

TO START WITH THE OBVIOUS, MITT ROMNEY IS THE most conservative candidate in the field who HAS, at present, *A CHANCE OF WINNING.

*(for those of you in Rio Lindo, that means VIABLE, can do etc.)


The press doesn’t like conservatives, or at the very least, is more hostile to conservatives than it is to liberals. The press sees everything regarding a conservative in the worst possible light; liberals are more likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

A second reason is that Mitt Romney doesn’t look like a politician should, or at least the way the media thinks a Republican politician should. Given that Romney is constantly praised for his patrician demeanor, his impeccable manner and his smooth-as-silk politicking, I know this point is counter-intuitive, but bear with me.

The press has come to expect Republicans to fit certain molds. They are supposed to be inarticulate and not quick on their feet. The press has stereotyped every Republican presidential nominee since Ford in this way. They are also supposed to be intellectually unimaginative or downright unintelligent. Again, every Republican presidential nominee since Ford has had to live with this label. They are further required to be creatures of politics who have accomplished nothing or next to nothing outside of the political world. Lastly, all Republicans ought to have a bit of Elmer Gantry in them. They should preach about morality and piety, but they should always be obliging enough to have at least a few skeletons jangling in their closet.

Mitt Romney fails to live up to any of these stereotypes. Glib and articulate, it’s hard to imagine Romney ever fearing a press conference or a debate.

Intellectually, Romney graduated Harvard’s Business and Law Schools with top honors.

Furthermore, it seems like he’s completely unfamiliar with the media dictates that Republicans should wrestle with English like it’s a hostile foreign language and make themselves available for lampooning as dullards.

Even more gratingly, Mitt Romney didn’t become a full-time politician until 2002. Until then, he had been a phenomenally successful businessman who had made hundreds of millions of dollars in a fiercely competitive industry while earning a reputation for honesty and intellectual probity.

Lastly, and probably most frustratingly for the media, the Romney closet is depressingly barren. When Mitt Romney talks about family values, he’s able to point to his own wife of 40 years and a brood of children and grandchildren that seems too good even for a Christmas card.

In short, Mitt Romney is MORE FORMIDABLE than a Republican presidential candidate has any right being.


He is a fat target in a way that a guy like Mike Huckabee never could be, even if Huckabee hadn’t lost all that weight.

NONE OF WHICH IS TO SAY THE PRESS’ ATTACKS are entirely without merit. Romney’s positions on social issues, most prominently abortion, have changed (or evolved) in recent years. The press has concluded with predictable hostility that these changes reflect an unappealing opportunistic streak that marks Romney’s character. Because these changes have become such an issue, Romney will have to offer a more compelling explanation for his current positions than he has to date. The fact on the ground, fair or not, is that some observers have decided that Mitt Romney’s core convictions don’t run deep. The candidate and his campaign will have to deal with this matter.

But as far as the press is concerned, one question determinedly lingers: To paraphrase Bob Dole, where was the similar outrage when Al Gore and Dick Gephardt had similar evolutions, albeit ones that ran in the opposite direction?






here we are again is it kathy or kimbat
Oh here we go again is it kathy or kimbat? Anyway townhall readers Kimbat has refused to let me know what branch of the armed forces she has served in and when she deployed to Iraq.

And now Kathy? Ok let me give you a hint kathy 1. If Mit Romney authorized gay marriage he would be excuminicated from the Church od Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints who bye they way is built on the principals of the family. I would direct you to several web site but I know you would be to ignorant to read through them or just pass it off because that is your style anything that is not your view is wrong or a pack of lies and fantasy. Oh and as far as childeren if he voted for abortion the Curch's stand is this as far as I understand it and if there is any other Mormons here I am sure they will correct me, but abortion is only condoned on the case of incest, rape or the mothers life is in danger... So again he would be excumincated from the Curch Kimbat/Kathy who ever you are...

One issue voters ...
... are so very frustrating! And yes, sometimes they stretch it to TWO issues, I'll admit.

Kathy, you've made your point repeatedly about how Romney is "pro abortion" (your words, not mine) and is "for gay marriage" (again, your words, not mine). Since facts aren't going to get in the way of your opinion, then let's just move on to another area.

Let's assume you're right about Romney, and that he's a flip-flopper on these two issues. Is your solution to vote against him - should he get the GOP nomination - and support his opponent, who is most certainly pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage, and is proudly on record as such?

Or will you "exercise your right" and just stay home and not vote? Yeah, that'll show 'em, won't it?

Staying home, no matter whether you're a Republican or Democrat, is a victory for the opposition (I'm sure some comments from third party supporters are coming). And having a narrow view on a few select issues ultimately secures the same result - a victory for the opposition.

Romney didn't GOVEN conservative...
> macfan1950 writes: For what really happened
> in Massachusetts, see:

Yes, I have met David French and he is smart and right AS FAR AS HE GOES. Two points he fails to make are that (a) the decision stated that there could be NO distinctions made between men and women in Massachusetts. Now that hasn't been mentioned much because the last thing the Lesbians want is guys in the locker room but Romney should have mentioned this as part of what is wrong with the decision.

And if you think I am wrong, the South Hadly MENS golf team now is REQUIRED to have a girl on the team.

(b) he should have just ordered a halt to ALL marrages as of the judge-imposed date. You could either get married before then or go get married in an adjacent state - no part of Massachusetts is more than 50 miles from at least one other state. Or not get married at all, Marshall's decision made it clear that marrage was optional.

Having done this would have precluded any gay marrage while obeying the court. And after Marshall had written about how marrage essentially was de-facto irrelevant, she would have been hard pressed to turn around and order the Commonwealth to reinstitute a discontinued license.

The health insurance mandate is a time bomb. I will be forced to purchase prescription insurance which won't even cover the one drug I take. Wonderful, as I am allergic to the one they have on their list, do I go ADA against the People's Republic?

There is the infamous "fistgate" incident. It actually is worse than it sounds and this is the gay-friendly curriculum in K-6. Yep, K-6! And google what Dr. John Diggs wrote about it but don't let your kids read it!

Any conservative thinking of supporting Romney needs to go through the archives of the Massachusetts News and remember that this was ROMNEY's Department of Education (headed by a Democrat) and ROMNEY's Department of Public Health. He could have stopped all of this with one phone call to either commissioner. Or fired them.

There is the Big Pig. Not knowing that you hired Bectel to inspect Bectel's defective work after it killed a woman? Ignoring the million gallon per day leak in another tunnel?

There is so much more. He may be a conservative and he may be be pretty and all but what did he do? And if he can't do anything as a governor, what will he do as a president? If he can't manage the Big Dig, how would he manage a WAR?

Sam -
Have ants eaten your brain?

Regards

Economic Development
I appreciate the comments people have made about the devaluation of the US dollar and their investment in gold and silver. Unfortunately, the value of gold and silver among other precious metals are largely determined by the purchasing of it by governments.

I also have noticed, as has Mitt Romney that irresponsible government spending has caused significant inflationary pressures. I thought that he used a great deal of wisdom when he began to layoff government employees whose jobs were non-productive and inefficient at helping Massachusetts State Government to be efficient.

If you read the constitution of the US, you will notice that it mentions the responsibilities of the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. Then, it defines the activities government can provide: common defense and interstate commerce. This is all! Everything else our federal government is doing should be handled on the state level or by private enterprise. There is already a movement that is taking shape to accomplish this. Consider the Charter School systems that are spreading like wild fire accross America. While they are publicly funded, they are an outreach program to provide competition to school districts, which are not generally known for innovation or creativity.

I am also quite impressed with Mr. Romney's use of providing healthcare for all of the people of Massachusetts through private enterprise. It would appear that the system Mr. Romney has put in place could heavily shrink the burden of government, lower taxes, create a surplus, increase consumer spending and investment, increase job growth, and increase the value of the dollar globally.

Of course, the nations economy is always based on what consumers think of it. If there opinion of it is that it is falling apart, then they will stop buying. If they stop buying, businesses layoff workers and investors stop investing, and the economy starts to fall.

In management school I learned the benefits of change management. The process of which is:

1. Establish a Vision
2. Gain Political Support of the Vision
3. Establish Benchmarks for the Vision
4. Implement Visionary Plan
5. Celebrate every Success no matter how small

If we as consumers have no economic vision, or have not bought into one, then the economy suffers and we suffer. Then we blame the government for our problems and ask them to impose special tax treatments to help us regain a new vision or attitude towards the economy. Unfortunately, this does not always work. My bet is that Mr. Romney, as President will likely utilize is creativity in cutting government spending and waist while implementing wide-sweeping initiatives to place many of the services government is involved in to private enterprise like he did healthcare in Massachusetts. This way, we as consumers can watch government spending slow significantly to invest and consume more and bring our economy out of the slumps it is currently experiencing.



Frustrated Pirate and Sam, consider this
Politics by definition is the art or science of compromise. In other words, a politician must choose to move in a less preferred way in order win the support of people who would not normally support their initiatives in order to accomplish higher initiative priorities.

While Mr. Romney has made significant changes in healthcare and other areas, we all need to understand that he was working with a Democratic run house and senate. Like any marriage, there has to be some compromise of issues on both sides. This is how things get done in governments, businesses, and families throughout our nation.

Sam is probably part of Shrillary's
campaign. (He must be, to make up and expound all those lies about Mitt Romney and his policies, beliefs about the U.S. and government, etc.)

Oh, and Sam & Pirate---you forgot to blame Mitt Romney for global warming.

False Dilemma
One of the major logical fallacies is the false dilemma. In this case we are told that "hey, we have all these left liberals running for the Whilte House and only Mitt Romney as a Conservative alternative." I say nonsense. It does matter that the LDS is not a Christian Church but rather an aberrational Cult of the 19th Century Awakening in America. The Church has a flagrantly racist history against blacks. The Church promoted polygamy for its members, against the clear teaching of the New Testament.
The founder claimed to translate the so called 'Book of Abraham' from Egyptian heiroglyphicsinto King James English, even though he had no knowledge of the Rosetta Stone, and as it turned out, his 'translation' was a fraud.
No, it does matter to which religion a person holds allegiance.
There can be other alternatives. Don't let the LDS present Romney as the Knight in Shining armor.
For more information on the book of Abraham story, go to equip.org the Site of Hank Haanegraf, the Bible Answer Man.

'Bashing'
This is a tired cliche, thrown out against anyone who happens to disagree with you. If I disagree with a candidate or moral position, it would seem I am guilty of the 'sin' of bashing.
There is a more accurate use of this word. When posts descend to ad hominum and personal attacks rather than respond to the content of the posts.
If the LDS does have a favorable treatment towards blacks, please bring forward your data from just 30 years ago and give some examples.
I for one have not yet seen the Missionaries peddling their bicycles through the inner city black neigborhoods looking for converts, and believe me I have worked in a large municipality with a sizeable black population.
Somehow the Mormons just can't find their way to that part of town.

as far as it is translated correctly
Note the commentary right from the mouth of an LDS apologist.
It speaks for itself.
Of course Joseph Smith's fine work was without error, even though it has gone through multiple revisions.
In other words, God, the Holy Spirit just wasn't able to preserve the Word of God......
until Joe Smith came along and dug up some Gold tablets and translated them, alone, into King James English-- a language that Joe Smith did not speak, but oh well, it sounds so good.
The Christian Church believes that we do have the Word of God.
Yea, hath God said?

Muscat
1)The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA has a flagrantly racist history against blacks.

2)Where in the "new testiment" is polygamy discussed?

3)Where is you proof that the translation of the "book of Abraham" is a fraud? I want real proof not just opinion.

4)Apparently you are unaware of the number of LDS missionaries currently serving in AFRICA.

You should do a little research so as not to expose you ingnorance.

Book of Abraham
For those who are interested in Joe Smith and his translation of the so called 'Book of Abraham', go to this site.

Equip.org

the Bible Answer Man CRI
Hank Hanagraaf.

As for the Mormon Record on blacks, anybody who cares to look into it will find ample data from their own patriarch's mouths.

Who, by the way are the 'delightsome ones?'
I've heard that BYU even allows blacks to play basketball for them. How about that?

Read it from their own documents
And this is not CRI
Read it and weep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_and_Mormonism

Book of Abraham
If I wanted to know more about the Book of Abraham I would go to lds.org or I would get a copy of it and read it myself. Why waste my time with some hate filled anti-mormon opinion piece?

More on the great translation
Not to belabor the point, but for clarity, we need to know the firm foundation of the LDS empire.

http://www.equip.org/store/details.asp?SKU=DVD626

Muscat
Obviously you are ignorant of the quality and quantity of LDS apologetics. You could start at wayoffbass.blogspot.com/2005/06/responding-to-critics-your-almost.html or farms.byu.edu/ you really should know what the other side is saying. You could be lossing the argument and not even know it.

Muscat
Went to your webb site. Looks like they were more interested in selling me something than providing any solid material on the Book of Abraham.


The One True Church
Was not found in Upstate New York, by Joe Smith, itinerant fortune teller and peep stone seer, but rather on the Day of Pentecost When the Holy Spirit poured forth upon the Upper Room. The Church was founded on that Day and our Lord Jesus Christ promised to be with us until the end of the age.
Mormons argue that the Lord lost his Church shortly after the Resurrection and that His promises failed to sustain One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Either Mormonism is right and all of Christendom is in Apostacy, or the Christian Church is right and Mormonism is a False Cult religion.
You cannot have it both ways.
If Joe Smith is correct, than we had no Church on earth for almost 1,800 years,while the world patiently waited for Joe to discover his 'golden plates'.
And whose testimony do we have to bear witness to Joe Smith's discovery and revelation?
Why Joe himself, of course.
And this is the Founder of Mitt Romney's Religion?

Muscat
Again you expose you ignorance. There were 11 other witness to the golden plates. (Their testimonies are found in the front of every Book of Mormon). The Bible only requires two.

Lydia what are you smoking?
It is obvious the LSM is afraid of and therefore hates Romney. Just check this out, but be warned it may offend your moral sensibilities.

http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/1008/81/

Mitt Flip Flopper
As a conservative evangelical, I was fooled by Bush. I will not be fooled by this flip flopper with a liberal track record trying to pander to conservatives. He is not the only conservative with a chance. Only RINOs like you say that. Tancredo and Brownback will beat Romney in the IA caucus. I'll take bets on that. By the time the Compean-Ramos-Hernandez affair makes its way into the mainstream media and high ranking folks in DHS and DOJ are being prosecuted, the pro-amnesty McCain, Guiliani & Romney will be history. Immigration will be the #1 issue in '08.
And I'm weary of people in the "mainstream" crying about bigotry when people point out that romney is a mormon. What a man believes is central to his qualifications for leadership and anyone who studies mormonism, as I have, will soon learn that it is all about power. The central creed of mormonism: "As man is, God once was and as God is, man can become." In short, if Mr. Romney is a good Mormon, then he believes he will become a god with his own planet to rule over with multiple wives. Besides reading their own books(Book of Mormon & Doctrine and Covenants), you should read "Under The Banner of Heaven", by Jon Krakauer, an atheist (not an evangelical with an axe to grind).

Romney is a Jimmy Carter
Seriously, he is. Both deeply religious, both autocratic micromanagers, both not quite under control of their state governments because of this. And as a President, Jimmy Carter, well...

My first experience with Romney was with the Jim Rappaport affair (and I am not convinced that wasn't antiSemitism). Rappaport had built a base of support (which Healey hadn't, even though she allegedly was in charge of recruitment). He was our choice for Lt Gov and Romney rammed Healey down our throats.

Rappaport's arguement was sound: the last 3 *elected* Governors (including Dukakas) had sought higher office and the last two had resigned early leaving the Lt. Gov as Acting Governor. (This is how we got Cellucci and Swift.) And but for Romney, we would not have Deval (moonbat) Patrick as Governor here.

But what did Romney actually do (a point the Boston Herald recently made). WHAT?

Lower taxes or conservative values -- well as to the latter the *legislature* has told Deval that there won't be new taxes. Mitt raised all kinds of FEES but those are taxes by another name.

And I honestly can't see what Romney accomplished. He *said* a lot of nice things, but as to what he accomplished?

And I challenge anyone FROM MASSACHUSETTS to tell me why I am wrong. NOT insult me, but just what I am missing here. Four years ago I thought Mitt was what people think he is now, but results matter.

And I still remember how he FOLDED back in the Kennedy Senate race when Teddy came out with something obscure about some company that Romney's company did something or other with. Romney folded, ran away and lost. WE COULD HAVE WON THAT RACE!

And the race Romney won, the ONLY race he won, was in '02 when he was running against a not-so-strong Democrat. Not a Hillary or Obabama...

As to the Mormans, I do think they get a raw deal. Much fuss was made about their new church (or temple or whatever) in Arlington. It does stand on top of a hill - overlooking an 8 lane highway. Yep, it really inflicted on the neighborhood because of its height (over said highway)...

Muscat--try Gladys Knight for one exampl
You are wrong on so many counts. ("If the LDS does have a favorable treatment towards blacks, please bring forward your data from just 30 years ago and give some examples.")

Well, for just one example, Muscat, why did Gladys Knight join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if it is so racist?

As to your: "I for one have not yet seen the Missionaries peddling their bicycles through the inner city black neigborhoods looking for converts, and believe me I have worked in a large municipality with a sizeable black population.
Somehow the Mormons just can't find their way to that part of town."

You must have been wearing blinders, Muscat, although in cities like NYC with good public transportation, the LDS missionaries would be on it; and in other cities they may be in cars.

In Bridgeport, CT there are (and have been for decades) at least 3 or 4 sets of missionaries working among the "sizeable black population." You also do not mention that all of our Bishops (ministers of congregations) as well as missionaries are unpaid laborers for Jesus Christ. My own husband served as counselor to a Branch Pres. in Bridgeport (primarily a black congregation) spending most of his Sundays there for over four years, although it was 7 miles from our home, while our regularly assigned ward (parish) church happens to be on our own street.

LDS church members have also donated hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to people of all races, around the world, regardless of their religious affiliation. Your charges of racism just do not hold any water.

Speaking of water, Mormons by the thousands have and are serving around the world not only preaching of Jesus Christ (bringing the "living water"), but also as health and other service missionaries in work such as building wells and water piping & treatment systems in remote areas.

Mitt
I'm from Canada and I'm following the presidential race as closely as I can. It seems to me that Mitt is the most controversial candidtate simply becasue of his religious back ground. Kimberly, if you did your resarch you would find out that Mormons are pro family. It does not do you any good to spout off scripture with out an intended target. FYI Mitt has 5 kids, I guess he hates children. Muscat as for the Church being racist that is a blanket statement as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saits did not deny baptism to anyone, regardless of race.

Go Mitt Go.

Mormons have a lot of history to hide
The Mormons are very slick PR folks, but history is not on their side. They may find a few poster boy Blacks to ignore history, but the facts are on record as to the racist stance of the LDS system.

http://christiandefense.org/mor_black.htm

rick
You should read the Mormon response to under the banner of heaven found here.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=530


Asking for objectivity from the LDS
When a company's books are 'audited' they must allow a third party to come in and take a look. To expect an impartial and unbiased presentation of history from a 'sanitized PR department working for the LDS may yield commentary that will please the LDS faithful, but I hardly agree with your admonition Rick.

The Mormon Religion is a Cult, not a true representative of Jesus Christ our Lord.

They even deny the honor and pride of place given to the Cross, which represents the perfect sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man for the redemption of fallen mankind.
Drive by any LDS 'temple' and you will notice there is no cross.
Without the Cross of Jesus Christ, you have no Christianity.

The Christian Church
I've seen it mentioned, here, several times, and I'd like to know, which one is that, exactly, and what is the address? After all, when I look it up in the phone book, I see SO MANY ENTRIES, with such different names. And when you go to them, they say such different things, yet they all claim that they have the EXACT truth that came from Jesus and the Holy Spirit at the Pentecost.

Yet, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is somehow not grouped with any of them?

This, to me, makes no sense. The name of Jesus Christ is right there in the name of the church.

No Cross
My understanding of the "no cross" on an LDS church phenomenon is that they prefer to honor the atonement, itself, and not merely the altar upon which it was offered.

No Cross
LDS worship the risen, living Christ, not the instrument of His death. If your mother were murdered by a knife, would you wear a miniature knife to remember her by? But you worship how you want. Just respect me enough to allow me the same priviledge.

So Muscat only anti-mormons are objective? You are obviously didn't check out the site I gave you. What are you afraid of?


Also check out this one
http://www.blacklds.org/



Amen to StrivingForSense--both posts
this evening. Just to add to what you have acknowledged about Mormons' beliefs about the ATONEMENT. We of course believe in the central necessity of Christ's death and RESURRECTION, to enable all mankind to overcome physical death.

But of equal, if not more, importance was our Savior's Atonement, the taking upon Himself of the Sins of all Mankind, to overcome the effects of SPIRITUAL DEATH. As a Mormon, I believe that the Atonement occurred in The Garden of Gethsemane, as The Savior physically took upon Himself the Pain & Suffering for the Sins of all mankind. His pain & suffering was manifested physically (although humans can hardly imagine the extent) as "being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." (Luke 22:44)

Thank you, StrivingForSense, for your genuine Christian attitude, as exemplified by your posts here.

Ask a Mormon
Look Folks,

Those of you who are going off half-cocked about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are really making yourselves look silly.

It reminds me of the Salt Lake Olympics. People came from all over the world. They saw a beautiful city. They saw a group of people who were able to speak virtually every language of each country who attended due to the missionary program of the church. I had a friend who had served in Mongolia and happened on two very bewildered young men (the entire Mongolian Olympic team). He dropped what he was doing and escorted them around town and got them where they needed to be.

The only discordant note were numbers of rather dirty (physically unwashed) itinerant preacher types who stood on street corners yelling anti-mormon slogans and waving large signs and posters about how all Mormons were going to hell along with Brigham Young and his 135 wives.

They looked as foolish as the anti-mormons on this site sound.

If there is anyone out there who really wants to know what the Mormon's believe here are several very authoritative websites:

http://www.lds.org the official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

http://www.mormon.org a user friendly site for non-members of the church who are curious.

http://www.fairlds.org An unofficial LDS apologetics site that answers all of Muscat's overinflated and under-reasearched assertions.

All of the basic texts of the Church are online on lds.org, including The King James Version of the Holy Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine & Covenants of the Church and the Pearl of Great Price which contains the Book of Abraham that Muscat is so shrill about.

I served a mission for the Church to Norway. My sons served in the Philippines and in Argentina. My Son-in-law was in Korea. My wife lived in Argentina and Norway. Her ancestry is Dutch, German, Belgian and Norwegian. So we can read the scriptures in five languages in our family.

If my idea of God and Christ is not exactly like Muscat's then based on the posts Muscat has made, I'm very grateful.




the LDS cliches evident
Their response speaks for itself. To despise the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ is the tack of all false abberant cults.
Ditto with the Jehova's Witness and all.
Without the Cross of Jesus Christ there is no salvation.

The LDS is a false religion, founded by an ungodly man, with a serious moral failure ie Adultery and fornication.

http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/

Muscat
I wasn't talking to you. I know that your mind is closed. Your tone is bitter and acusatory.
You are not interested in the truth. You are interested in preserving your pre-concieved notions.

I have read all your anti-mormon books and web-sites. You have not read The Book of Mormon or the sites I have recommended.

I am writing to the open-minded people who must wonder what is up with you. If they want the true story of the Church they will read what we say about ourselves.

I don't go to a farmer to find out about nuclear physics. I go to a nuclear physicist.

I absolutely agree daddy o
I find that the best place to find out about what Mormons believe is to talk to them or perhaps one of their representatives. The missionaries, in my opinion share discussions with others who are curious. Then, there is a promise that if they ask God himself with a sincere heart, with real intent, he will tell them by the power of the Holly Ghost.

Now, I know that a change of culture can be terrifying to some in relation to the traditions a person grows up with. But, please understand there must be a reason why there are an average of one new member joining the LDS chuch every minute of every day and night somewhere in the world making it the fastest growing church in America in terms of converts.

If Mormons are a cult, why are so many people recieving answers to their prayers in the affirmative? Please allow me to enlighten some people. Joseph Smith had only a third grade education. He translated plates that contained an ancient record of the people in ancient america that discuss their dealings with the resurrected Christ. He then found men of high character who witnessed that the plates were delivered by an angel of God and that these men would never deny their witness, even amidst persecution: loss of property, loss of family members, etc. Joseph and his brother Hyrum then sealed their testimonies with their blood.

If you think Joseph Smith's legacy was easy, try it yourself. Produce a book that others would be willing to give their lives defending with a promise that if they read it with a sincere heart, pray about it, that God will answer by the power of the Holly Ghost affirmatively. Then, give your life for it. Does anyone here have this kind of conviction for their religion?
Apparently daddy o does. He gave a couple of years of his life to teach others about it for free. In fact, he probably had to earn the money and pay for his missionary experience himself.

So, are there any takers to match what Joseph Smith did? Standing by!

How deep are your religious convictions?
People seem to say a great deal about their religious convictions. In some cases, I am convinced it is a matter of their own personal traditions: their family does it, their religion does it, their friends do it. But, has anyone truely asked God if the Bible is true, or if the Book of Mormon is true, or if anything is true. Please understand, this will require some research and a decision. Then, ask God if your decision is correct. Has anyone asked God if they should support Mitt Romney, or Rudy Guiliani, or John McCain, or anyone else running for President? Surely, not everyone is affraid of getting an answer, or are they?

Prayer
Everyday, Morning, noon, and night. Often in the car on the way to work. I pray that we may all be wise in our choices. I pray for the leaders of our nation and each of the nations of the earth. I prayed for Preident Clinton, I pray for President Bush. I will pray for the next president regardless of their political affiliation. They need ou prayers.

As to specific candidates, Anyone who knows anything about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, knows that the Church maintains strict neutrality concerning political candidates. Mitt Romney will be no exception. No church buildings or resources are to be used to promote his or any other candidacy.

Any work I do for any candidate will not be in any way connected to my church office or position but as a private citizen.

As a private citizen, I intend to support Mitt Romney's candidacy. I don't think he or any other of those running is perfect. However his views on national and international issues seem to cooincide most closely with my own.

I would rank the front runners in this order:
1. Romney
2. Giuliani
3. McCain

I will vote for any of the republican candidates over any of the democratic field. If Joel Lieberman became a republican and ran for the presidency, I would put him #2. Their is a man of integrity and courage.

There
There not their

Politics vs Personal Responsibility
I have closely followed politics for many years. I have done research in what candidates stand for, what their vision is, and what role they see the American people will take in their vision. Yet, I firmly believe that if America is to rise to greater heights, the greatest vision the American people can take is in their own vision of America.

Sam has given us some idea that we need to stop trusting in the US dollar. Quite frankly, the only thing that determines the value of the US dollar is that of consumer confidence. It almost sounds like Sam is working for the European Union in making the Euro Dollar the most stable in the world. But, in terms of consumer confidence, the greatest thing that can be done in building the United States economic leadership possition is to obtain a bright and clear vision of your own economic future one consumer at a time...one American at a time.

Of course, the US government has some power over the dollar in terms of its value. But, we as a people must take our vision and our destinies into our own hands and be responsible for our own lives. Government cannot under any circumstances create a vision for us, nor can they implement it.

In my research findings in relation to a family setting, I have found government for the most part to be a parent. When there is a Democrat Administration, the idea is to make the parent as big as possible all working on keeping creativity and innovation at a minimal so that government will blossom. Then, when there is a Republican administration, the government seems to move towards improving the individual and increase their personal potential. What it all comes down to is this, you are either for a large controlling government to solve all of your problems (Democrat), or you are for a government who allows you to take greater personal responsibility in deciding what your vision will be (Republican).

Just ask any black person....
About the LDS.
Don't take my word for it.
I do have LDS in my family and they generally do not care to have any blacks in the neighborhood. They tell their children not to speak to blacks, but I guess I am just making this all up.
Well, as I have said, don't take my word for it, just ask a black person what they know or have experienced from the Noble LDS.

http://www.christiandefense.com/mor_black.htm


To quote Brigham Young
Brigham Young second President and Prophet:

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:290; emphasis added)

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be (ibid., 10:110; emphasis added)


Just ask these blacks

Muscat
You are quoting from the Journal of Discourses.

The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It includes practical advice as well as doctrinal discussion, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest.

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.3933737ad2ff28132eb22a86942826a0/?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c9622f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____


The discourse you quote was given long before any recording devices were available and were transcribed from notes taken. Not a very accurate process to be sure.

You give quotes from people who are giving their opinion. What they think is not doctrine. Even prophets aren't perfect. Think Peter and his denial or Jonah and his running away and later being disappointed when the people repented.

Let him without sin first cast the stone.

Muscat if you are sinless cast away.

Muscat (Really for All)
I realize Muscat really doesn't care what I say, but I'll say it anyway for the rest of those following these comments. Our Ward in Georgia has African Americans in it. Yes, I said Georgia, the South, the Bible Belt, the home of many a Baptist. One black man teaches a daily early morning religion class (Seminary) for all the high school students in the Ward. His wife is in the Presidency of the Women's organization (Relief Society). Their son is preparing to serve a mission for the Church. A young man in another African American family assists in the ordinance of the Sacrament every week and sings in the choir. His mother, a single parent, teaches a children's class every Sunday. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Everyone in the Ward of 700 people (250 regular attenders), loves all these people and is very happy that they are among us. *They are teaching our children and participating in sacred ordinances.* Do you think if we didn't like them, we would allow that?

As I was writing this, I realized that I really don't think of these good folks as blacks, African Americans or whatever the PC term is--they're just my brothers and sisters.

Muscat
I went to your http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/ web site. The very first "Mormon" scripture provided is willfully and maliciously MISquoted. Obviously an atempt to deceive. Deception is an instrument of the DEVIL!!!

Shame on Muscat's LDS Family
If Muscat's LDS family members have any such atitudes then they are not listening to the council of the prophets and apostles of the Church. They are not living the precepts of the church.

This is like saying that ONE Catholic priest abuses children sexually so then ALL Catholics abuse children sexually. What logical tripe!!!

Also, Muscat claims to be an authority on the LDS church and everthing they know, believe or practice, and then refers us to mainly anti-mormon websites. The closest personal insights Muscat has to give us are culled from some unscecified Mormon "relatives" who are not living the way that the majority of members of the Church are living.

When authentic Mormon voices, representing those who are active and involved in the Church, give personal examples of the actions and atitudes of real Latter-day Saints, Muscat comes back with yet another Misquoted, twisted web-site.

Follow the Logic here. A says B believes c.
B says he actually believes d. A quotes non-b websites who say that B beieves c. B and others of B's faith give first-hand accounts demonstrating thier belief in d. Who is more believeable?

A's testimony is hearsay: inadmissable in a court of law.

B's testimony is direct first-hand evidence.

Who should the jury believe?

Muscat,

You are making false, mis-leading, hearsay accusations. You are wrong. For your own sake
stop it. Repent. Go build up your own faith and stop tearing down the faith of others.

Most Sincerely,
daddy o

Query for Muscat?
Please answer the following yes or no:

Have you read the entire Bible Cover to Cover?

Have you read the Book of Mormon Cover to Coever?

Have you read the Doctrine and Covenants Cover to Cover?

Have you read the Pearl of Great Price cover to cover?

Have you accessed the websites I recommended to those who want first hand knowledge of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Have you read the latest General Conference addresses of the Church's First Presidency and 12 Apostles contained on http://www.lds.org?

I can answer yes to all of the above questions.
In addition I have taught the precepts of the church for over thirty years.
I am an active and participating member of that Church.
I have prayed to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ concerning these doctrines and I know them to be true and good.

You may disagree with my testimony and my first hand experiences but you cannot say that I have not experienced them, or that my knowledge of the Church is subordinate to yours.

I would not dare to tell you or anyone else what you believe without asking you or your pastor.

In fact, if someone asked what you believe I would refer them to you.

I don't know what faith you adhere to. But if I did, you would not find me, or any other Mormon worthy of the name out in fornt of your church picketing or loudly shouting you down when you try to speak.

Until you do all the above and pray about what you read with a sincere heart and real intent I could not accept your testimony as anything but baseless and irrelevant hearsay.

Most Sincerely,
daddy o


Muscat, I have a witness also
Muscat, I realize there must be a plethera of traditions all around you. Some of them no doubt are true. Others, are likely to be absolutely false. This challenge is all around everyone every day. Gratefully, God continues to promise that if we want to know the truth, we must ask him in faith. After all, he is the source of all truth and will guide us in the right path. But we must ask him.

I also have learned for myself that what daddy o has spoken makes sence. It is true because I have also asked God desiring to know. His response was similar to the description of the Holly Ghost in Galatians 5:48 "The friut of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, meekness." These feelings have led me to believe in Christ, in His church, in those who lead His church. In my own life, my witness is regularly challenged. Yet, it is constant, patient, a strength to my soul against the storms of life. It is the essence of confidence and self-assuredness that comes from striving to be and do your best.

Muscat
Here is another article about members of the LDS church of African decent.
http://www.ldsmag.com/churchupdate/070228africa.html

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