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Friday, August 22, 2008
David Strom :: Townhall.com Columnist
Is the Free Market Perfect?
by David Strom
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There has been a lot of loose talk in liberal circles that the current housing crunch, inflation, and spike in energy prices somehow prove that the free market is fatally flawed.

Markets haven’t worked, the argument goes, so bigger government is surely the answer.

It doesn’t take a genius to show that there is already massive intervention in the housing and energy markets, and that the current bout of inflation is also driven by government policies set by Congress, the Federal Reserve and the Treasury. The United State’s economy, far from being a completely free market, is already massively regulated.

But let’s assume for a moment that our current economic woes are primarily driven by factors within the free market system. After all, it is well-known that business cycles are a natural part of the capitalism. Free markets, in other words, do not always give you the results you want.

What does that mean for the argument that free markets are superior to a supposedly well-regulated economy? Are our current economic problems “proof” that markets don’t work and that government is the solution?

Of course not.

The superiority of free markets to government regulation is not based upon a magical ability of businesses or even markets to operate flawlessly or at optimal efficiency at all times. Businesses often make huge mistakes, and we have known for centuries that markets are constantly fluctuating, even wildly. Recently the tech bubble and now the housing bubble show that even entire segments of the market get so out of whack that we all wind up suffering painful corrections.

Markets, though, correct. Because they are ultimately tied to basic forces such as supply and demand, customer desires, and of course competition, they are anchored to real forces within the economy as a whole. No matter how out of whack they get, the long-term trend is always going to be in the right direction. More economic growth, satisfying customer demands, better quality at lower prices, and increased productivity and efficiency.

Now consider how government regulation works. Politicians identify a goal they want to achieve and pass a law to make it happen. Bureaucracies are created, civil servants are hired, statistics are collected (which by the time they are actually used are out-of-date), rules and regulations are instituted, and then even more civil servants enforce those rules.

Top-down regulation like this simply cannot work as well as a free market. In a free market, market forces such as supply and demand make the system self-correcting. Not so with a highly regulated market.

Regulation doesn’t respond to anything but political pressure. The loudest voices and the most politically powerful shape the rules that determines who gets what.

Far from protecting the “little guy,” regulations are often used to maximize the profits of particular interest groups. State and Federal laws set minimum prices for commodities such as milk and gasoline—ensuring that competition doesn’t drive down prices. “Prevailing wage” laws are used to ensure that the wages paid to workers on government projects are much higher than wages in the private sector—ensuring that taxpayers get the minimum value for their tax dollars.

It’s a whole lot easier to lobby for profits than compete for them. When government sets the rules, powerful interest groups often get to write them.

Markets work well—not perfectly, but well—because they are not engineered from the top-down. They are chaotic. They encourage experimentation. They allow mistakes. In markets, even the mighty can fall. Not so in regulated markets.

The belief that bigger government and more regulation are magic bullets that can correct the flaws of the marketplace is based upon the idea that politicians and bureaucrats can engineer an economy and do so for the benefit of all—pretty much the same idea that was tried under socialism. Instead what happens is that government becomes another tool of big interest groups and the rest of us are left holding the bag.

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About The Author

David Strom is the President of the Minnesota Free Market Institute. He hosts a weekly radio show on AM-1280 "The Patriot" in Minneapolis-St. Paul, available on podcast at Townhall.com.

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Housing Problems:
A couple of years after Clinton became President, there was a stink in Washington because the banks would not lend housing morgages to people who didn't have the income and job stability to pay them back.

So the Dems under Clinton passed a law that forced the banks to accept a certain number of those loans anyway.

Who do you think is now defaulting on those loans? The very people the banks wouldn't loan to in the first place. Is it the banks' fault? Is it really the people's fault? Or was it the Dems fault?

But watch who they blame now for it.

I’m glad to see that…
…someone else is starting to see exactly what I have been saying about this perfect economy we have. It is in the end of this statement take a look. “Free enterprise or National Capitalism. The later is what China has today, and Hitler used to rise to power.” By Charley! You see it anyone? The part about Hitler! I have said the same thing many many times myself. America is heading down the same road as Germany did after WW I. More and more American people are looking for someone to blame for this economic mess. This mess that has been caused by greed and the desire to want more and never be happy with what one has. They call it productivity; this is the name given to modern day greed.
The spin doctors have themselves convinced that business is perfect and it is flawless, just read Wendy’s post and get the perfect example. Unfortunately, it is not perfect because what all the business formulas did not take into account was the greed of a dishonest business man / woman. The formulas are based on perfection and it is corruption that has taken over. Once again one can’t see the forest while standing in the trees! Modern business is wrong in the way they practice doing business today. America was not founded or built on these ideas and the result is America is being screwed right into the ground. The business folks like Wendy’s post talks about will destroy America in the end and China will be handed the keys!

Free Market perfect....
Free enterprise or National Capitalism. The later is what China has today, and Hitler used to rise to power.

It is a few controling the rules siphoning taxation for socialism or their favorite endeavour. Otherwise the economy is pretty much left to thrive.

Not really much different then the USA has today with congress making regulations and bailing out and adjusting the rules to fit their personal endeavours.

A free enterprise will have the extremes as much as controls do, it just does not have favoritism. Do not let anybody tell you that the economy adjusts milder. Weather or lack of a commodity in your country can be an extreme price, often almost immediately and if not famine.

Controls only take individual freedoms in exchange for favoritism of programs they choose.

You have no right to chose that you will not spend money on a tommy ache, to save for something more serious. Those in control decide.


Fewer Courtiers
You can usually tell how potent or powerful a king of a nation was by the size of its court, or how much money was represented there. King Louis XIV was called the Sun King because France revolved around him as much as the planets revolved around the sun. Lobbyists are courtiers, no more or less, each vying for favors from the governments they loiter among.

I'm not saying, though, that if our federal government were less powerful there would be NO lobbyists. They had them back in Washington's administration; there were just less of them.

Yes
Yes, the free market IS perfect--if you are using the correct meaning of the word. To be perfect means to meet a given standard flawlessly. It does not mean, "get around the laws of reality to produce an outcome of infinite abundance with no complaints anywhere."

There will always be winners and losers under any given system, because people have free will. This is not a problem at all, if you are rational. It is only a problem to the irrational, the infantile whiners, and the scumbags.

The more free the politico-economic system, the milder the booms and busts. That is a proven fact. It sure would be nice to live in a pure free market economy. I intend to fight for it.

Regarding the Great Depression
A common myth perpetrated by our government youth propaganda camps (aka public schools) is that Roosevelt and his "New Deal" somehow "got us out of the Great Depression."

This is easily proved as nonsense. Roosevelt took power in 1932. The Great Depression hit its historic bottom five years later, in 1937, not despite, but because of, Roosevelt's massive economic interventions.

You could even argue that the Great Depression lasted through most of the 1940's, as well. The war economy, after all, did not produce wealth, but rather even worse privation than the depression that preceded it. All kinds of essential products at that time were under strict government rationing--arguably, a form of pure, military socialism.

A fine article by Strom.

Mercantilism versus Capitalism
As a libertarian, I believe laissez-faire capitalism is the most ideal, moral economic system. As the great economist von Mises pointed out, capitalism usually gets blamed for all the evils caused by government intervention.

Unfortunately, the USA has evolved into a system called mercantilism, in which there is active "partnership" between the government and certain politically-connected businesses. This is not the same as capitalism, though capitalism takes the blame for all the problems.

So long as you have a political system in which the central government believes it can do anything it pleases, that system will evolve towards mercantilism (sometimes correctly called corporate fascism). In this system, politically-savvy businesses contribute money to political campaigns, with an unstated expectation that the politician will help pass laws favorable to the contributing businessman. The politician does so, seeing a ready source of extorted cash for his vaulting ambitions.

Most of human history has been marred by this system of mercantilism. Only in a few brief, glorious moments have we seen the efficiency and creativity of laissez-faire capitalism (the early USA is a good example of it). Today, our free market system has been largely destroyed and replaced by mercantilism.

RealCon
I'm an idiot?

I guess you need to go take Milton Freedmen's Nobel prize away... he is the one who studied the GD and determined the actions of the government made a bad spell into a long-term catastrophy.

elko
My degree is BSEE. For the illumination of those not fortunate enough to be either, i will repeat the difference between a mathematician and an engineer. Given a naked engineer with his bback against the wall of a 20x20 foot room, and a naked young lady with her back against the opposite wall, the engineer is allowed to take steps across the room, with each step constrained to cover no more than half the distance to the lady. A mathematician can prove that the engineer will never reach the lady. The engineer grins and walks, knowing he will get close enough for all practical purposes. :-D

Vic,elko of 12:59
Fascinating. I would be delighted to have the job of predicting when a socialist country would fail economically. Some historical inputs to study, parameter definition and impact, some empirical guidelines, a decent curve fit routine and voila! With a year and 100k plus expenses, i am confident i could do a heckuva lot better job than the POS programs that the AGW people are using. Note i do not say i could write a program to predict the weather, long or short term. Mark Twain was right. A meteorologist is a college graduate who studies weather patterns for four years and when he graduates, his guess is as good as anybodys'.

Will the Election help Communisim
"This fight is winnable, and there is an actual strategy to win, a strategy that consists of more than playing at revolution and calling for chaos in the streets.

Right now the elections are the most critical form of struggle; this is where we have the best shot of finally breaking the back of the ultra right. Afterwards, we will continue to build a united movement that can work to establish a real electoral alternative, and eventually to challenge the system overall.

Of course, a Democratic victory in 2008 will not solve all the problems caused by so many years of ultra-right domination, or by capitalism in general.

Swells of young people agree and have already stepped up to the challenge in the Democratic primaries, voting in record numbers and refusing to accept the idea that these elections don’t matter. In Iowa alone, the youth turnout rate more than tripled from under 21,000 in 2004 to over 65,000 in 2008, and it quadrupled in Tennessee despite the devastating storms that ripped through on Super Tuesday. Similar situations have occurred in all Democratic primaries to date.

And there is something to be said for the movement of young people that surrounds Barack Obama.

This kind of victory, which would include a total Democratic sweep in November, could set the stage for higher forms of struggle for generations to come."

Revolt with a Vote
Author: Erica Smiley and Dan Margolis Communist Party USA
First published 04/29/2008 16:21

Communist peaceful takeover of America
On my blog here at Town Hall - simply click on my name.

I have the 45 goals the Communists have for America, that was read into the Congressional Record in 1963. You will be amazed at how the Communists have succeeded by 2008 - 45 years later. I have listed five (5) examples
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963
Current Communist Goals EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Thursday, January 10, 1963 .

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

Vic -- Don't Worry
"The biggest problem with this REPUBLIC is that they let any citizen who is not a felon vote."

Don't worry, Vic, the Democrats are working on a solution for that.

They're going to let felons vote too!

Say What????
Retail sales drop for first time in 5 months

Consumer prices rise at double the expected rate

Wholesale prices rising at fastest pace since 1981

The global financial crisis is set to get worse, with a large US bank likely to collapse in the next few months, a former IMF chief economist has warned.

Then toss in this spin: The US economy has been boosted by the government's $168bn (£84bn) stimulus package, according to the US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson.

What is it exactly you are saying Mr. Strom? Are you saying that none of the above is happening right now? Are you saying it is the consumer that is at fault for all of this or is it as you say President Bush’s fault? How about the Collage Boys and their ideas? How about the Law of supply and demand for example. Something that can be magically created simply by not producing enough of the product. What about whatever the public will bear. The idea of this is simply charge as much as you want as someone will buy it. You know the higher the price the better the product! My personal favorite is this one. Price the product so only the rich can afford it, you limit the people that can buy it, and the common worker cannot. After all if one wants to steal money who better to steal it from than the rich?

We need regulations put back on everyday necessities like a Place to live, Power, Food, Medical, Fuel and Cloths as anything else is a luxury. You need some form of transportation also, so one car should be made by each of the big 3 that a common worker can afford to pay for even if they work at Wal Mart!

This is the fault of big business and the Congress of the U.S. cut dry and simple. It is called Greed!

Vic,, Right Again
Assigning blame is a finger pointing exercise in Washington, rather than exercise in analysis. Objective reasoning is in especially short supply during the political season. What's new?

My fillings hurt when I hear "Change you can believe in". What does that mean? Nothing.
We can understand the change when it is described such that its results can be measured objectively. Once we've arrived at that point we can decide whether or not we can believe in it.

Good old W, the source of all the world's problems. One can only wonder how the liberals will explain whey the world's problems remain when he is gone. I suppose they will say he has screwed up the machinery of the world so badly it can never be fixed.

l8r.

Realcon
Wow, it is encouraging to see that someone gets it!
Your friends are getting their pockets picked but are in denial. They know they are right. It is just a matter of finding the arguments to support that faith. Their world view is at stake.

Enron was proof that the market is not free but privileged. That market controls are corrupt. That our "free market" is a scam.

Not left or right. Not lib or con. But the opulent vs the rest of us. Yes, that includes you.

It is your money!

Jose

Got to go
back later

elko
Usually what I see for "assigned blame" is all based on political "feelings" rather than objective analysis.

For example, currently every evil thing that has happened worldwide since the year 2000 has been George Bush's fault.

Free markets; wish upon a star
Free markets; great idea. Anybody seen one lately? I just wonder if this article is a sop to convince us that what we have is the best there is. I wouldn't expect Storm or anybody to state that categorically. However, we have no free markets that I know of. What we have is a lot of regulation that people got used to so that they seem like they're players in a free market.
Don't be doped.
We DO NOT have free markets in this country.
The money is fake. The credit is make believe. The regulations restrict entry. WIth profits being taxed to death and losses being covered by taxes our system is best identified as Fascism.
The success of our economy is in SPITE of itself. It is a living tribute to the spirit of the people of this country. But the system is anything but FREE.
I would like the propaganda to stop.

Realcon
I started this thread by agreeing with the columnist in that every time the liberals give some example of the failures of capitalism it is anything but.

In all cases the so-called failures are either a direct result of government interference or the subsequent result of a different failure caused by government interference.

The depression was certainly an example of that. It started as a normal business cycle and wound up as an economic basket case, all due to stupid and ineffectual monetary and socialist policies by the government.

That is not just my opinion, but the opinion of scores of economic experts who have made a lifetime of studying the event. It is also based on my own experience of having lived through scores of liberal socialist congresses and presidents.

I have observed the phenomena, measure it’s outcomes, and feel like I can be reasonably accurate in predicting similar outcomes.

This was my last post to you.

Vic, True of Enron
but the markets managed to kill it anyway. This weak and under performing company did not survive precisely because the free market worked. That it was a fiasco of that scale and scope could only have been the result of government meddling in the free market.

I find such cases interesting examples of how people choose to assign blame based upon perceived motivations. In this case, the assumed government's motivation is to do good and companies are motivated by greed. Government is motivated to do good and therefore their actions can't be responsible for a failure. Enron is a greedy corporation and it is therefore at fault. The free market promotes greed and it also must be responsible.

Ergo, we need more government involvement to keep greedy companies participating in a free market from screwing consumers and investors. Ignorance and assumptions about motivation are needed to reach this conclusion.

Realcon, I made the mistake
of assuming that since you said you claimed to be a mathematician that you understood the terminology. In particular, the operative phrase was controlled experiments and so I suggest you dust off a textbook and read up on the field. Then we can have a discussion on how to perform science for economics.
By the way, I'm degreed in Math.

Enron
LOL, another example of failed government intervention. Enron's major work in the 80s and 90s was to go around the country trying to get State legislators to change the laws in favor of Enron. They succeeded in some places. All those sleep-overs in the WH with Klinton were not for nothing.

elko
Currently all it appears he wants to do is call people idiots.

It is fascinating ...
that people argue that free markets fail when they are actually working as they should. Some argue that proof of the failure of a free market is a fiasco such as Enron. In fact, free markets are Darwinian. Week and under performing companies, such as Enron, fail. When they do it makes the economy stronger. That is how it works.

Precisely what failed was a BUSINESS, Enron in the example, and NOT THE MARKET. The failure of Enron proves that the market is working as it should.

elko
I am not sure what he is blowing.

BTW
One can not predict individually which U-235 atoms will absorb a thermal neutron and fission under a neutron flux. However, based on observed and measured phenomena, one can predict and calculate the probability of absorption and fission of a quantity of U-235 with varying energy levels of neutrons. I am sure that the same thing can be done for time to economic failure of socialist countries since there are enough failures out there.

And I did not call you a communist.

Realcon
What I said was that your post made no sense, it just rambles around.

And no I was jot an economist or trained in economics, other than reading a lot of books on the subject.

I was trained and worked in the nuclear buisness and am now retired.

Vic, Controlled Experiements
as you know are not a requirement to perform science. If they were it would be impossible to have a science of astronomy. Besides astronomy we have the proof that smoking contributes to instances of lung cancer. We know that exposure to UV increases the risk of contracting skin cancer. These are types of science in which it is possible to develop predictive results without using controlled experiments. Such methods exist as it is nearly impossible and certainly unethical to run controlled experiments for skin or lung cancer. Nevertheless facts demonstrate it is possible to conduct science in these circumstances.
|
I agree with you Realcon is blowing smoke and trying to convince us it is sunshine. Yes indeed we could develop a mathematical formulation that would predict a time to failure for socialist countries.

Realcon
Are you just trying to make up an elaborate discussion on the fact that you don’t know what you are talking about? Your rambling post doesn’t make any sense.

What we know through observed historical fact is that every nation that has adopted socialism has failed or is in the process of failing. The speed of failure is directly proportional to the degree of socialism/communism adopted. In fact, I would go so far as to say that you probably could develop a mathematical formula to express that “time to failure”.

Currently since we are about half way into the socialism genre and perhaps 10% into the communist genre we are on the slope to failure ourselves. As we continue to add more socialism through the Republicrats and Commiecrats that slope will increase.

The biggest problem with this
REPUBLIC is that they let any citizen who is not a felon vote.

I'll waste a post and say
"supply side economics" has NOTHING to do with a "free market" or at the very least, very little to do with it.

Two problems with this democracy
1. Faith,
2. Lack of critical thinking.

or 1. Gullibility,
2. Shallow thinking.

Not talking about religion. That is another issue(problem).
If you have not seen George Carlin's routine on critical thinking, find it. Carlin was the prophet of our age.

Jose

We be da sucka's
There is a class war.
We are losing.
Supply side economics is what they are using to scam us.

Jose

Manichaean
"Is the free market perfect?"

"...the free market is fatally flawed."

Why must these debates always be Manichaean? NOTHING, NO THING, is perfect, and EVERYTHING is "flawed" in this world. A system that produces the lion's share of the world's wealth cannot be "fatally" fled.

What A Joke
The Liberal free market has done more harm to this Country than it has Benefitted it.How is it our responsibilty to benefit other Countries people and enconomy at the expense of our own when if you look at it the tarrifs on American products are so much higher than the foreign products coming into this Country.The Politicians and Corporate America have benefitted from it but not the American people and yet it continues with big business recieveing huge profits at the top but past that we are paying higher and higher prices for things I.E. Food, Gas,Ect.... and what has our Politicians done to help in the matter (not much)the free liberal market has almost eliminated the Middle class but the Rich are getting richer and we have become a two class society.It time we put our workers first, there is not anything we can't do or build in this Country that we need done by foreign workers and all we have to do is look back and see that up to the 60's we made our own products and employed our own workers with out any help from anybody. Liberal free Market Idea took hold and has made the world better at the expense of our own people and Country.We were a Manufacturing powerhouse and now we are a service oriented economy with most products coming from outside the USA.,its time that we put ourselfs first, it is not our resposibilty to baby sit the worlds economic growth.

If you build it they will come
Supply side economics! If you build it they will come. But they need money to buy your stuff. I can only think of two ways THEY can get the money to buy your stuff. Wages or credit. Don't want to raise wages. That would cut into profit. Sooo...lower the interest rates to entice them to borrow. Cool, you loan them the money, collect interest on the money so they can buy your "supplies".. OK so far. Slowing a bit? Hey, just lower loan requirements. Real estate is going through the roof!

Bubble time! The problem with lowering requirements is that those damned deadbeats can't make their payments. WE knew that, but we did great on the origination fees and bundled them all up and sold to the guys who are so rich and powerful that when the bubble breaks the government (you and me) get to bail them out. Never mind that they were high yield, high risk. After all that is what a free market is all about. Tax breaks, depletion allowances, bail outs. Free market!

einahteb
Yep, everytime the government gets involved it is like trying to control a machine using positive feedback.

Everything they do just makes things worse and pretty soon the machine runs away or shuts down.

Don't forget the second phase
The second phase of government control is responding to the unintended consequences of the first wave of government control.

Like what happened to black families when the government offered money only to single mothers. (Fathers left.)

RealCon
"We had free markets prior to the Great Depression, and we know how that ended."

Yup - it wasn't pretty. The government turned a market correction and possible mild recession, and turned it into a full-blown depression. Federal monitary and other policies achived the depression.

Read Milton Freedmon's writting on the great depression.

David
If you ever have the urge, to write another article wherein economics is discussed,please don't.Your article shows, that God's greatest mistake is "Human Beings"!

Pistol
Morning;

I agree except in the case of the housing market the original trend came BECAUSE of government interference. They forced lending organizations to loan money to high risk people (albeit at a higher interest rate) all in the name of “equal opportunity. So we had a number of high profit and high risk loans going out, as well as a lot of normal loans because general interest rates were at record lows (again set by the government). Housing prices, particularly in CA and FL took off.

The speculators saw big bucks being made so they got into the house churning. High risk loans were defaulting but nobody took note of it because prices were still rising and the loan groups simply resold the houses. With that irrational exuberance in housing was born just like the internet stocks. The feeling of “we can’t lose was born.

The lo and behold interest rates started going up because the old bear of inflation was rising it’s ugly head (largely from oil costs which were another government issue). With interest rates rising the housing market slowed. It was no longer possible to churn those failed high risk loans.

A “new crisis” was born, banks were losing money! We can’t have that, must have a government bailout.

Vic, cont
Formal double blind experiments are not practical, as noted. And it is easy to confuse time sequence with cause and effect. There is enough evidence out there to make me a fan of capitalism. Sometimes i wish folks who knock it would visit and carefully examine the lifestyle of the worker bees where it does not hold sway. Another factor is making decisions at the most efficient level. some are best made by the rifleman, some by the noncoms, some by the officers and some by the CIC. It doesn't work when the CIC is responsible for telling the rifleman to duck. Collectivist systems try to do this and it invariably fails. Reality feedback works much faster on businesses than govts. GM and Ford are in deep doodoo because of silly entitlement decisions. They are now negotiating their way out from under them, or trying to. they may or may not make it. In a few years, demographics and on-going politician failures to take action, will put us in the same fix.

Vic
Good morning. An interesting discussion. I tend to see macrocosmic events as a confluence of micro events. For example, Mom and Pop run a small business. They attempt to buy low and sell high, and their only real ally in doing this is to predict what the public will buy. They buy hula hoops for peanuts and sell them for macadamias----for a while. If they buy too many or for too long, they lose money when the market is saturated. The housing crunch is a macro example. A subtle combination of factors produced a series of housing upgrades. For a while, lots and lots of people were looking to sell their current and buy a nicer house. With houses turning over, profits were exceptional, speculators got into the market and continued to buy houses they didn't really need nor could afford long term. The rash of people upgrading got what they wanted and dropped out, removing the engine, the speculators, including banks which foolishly supported them, got burned. No different than Pop bbuying hoola hoops after everyone who had one wanted one. Other factors have huge influence on Pop's profits. Competing businesses (countries in macro), new technology, the relationship of debt and entitlements to profits. I don't mean to say i think its simple, even Mom and Pop hardly have it simple. And then here comes govt regulations, invariably a burden. A lot depends on whether it is large or small. In Hong Kong, Singapore and other places where it is small, business booms.

pt 2

All of that had some impact with starting the downturn and recession. We had a similar event with the “great internet bubble collapse” a few years ago.

But what turned that downturn into a depression was several things the government did to make everything worse. Smoot-Hawley was one of these things. It ignited a trade war and high tariffs around the globe. This had a severe impact on farmers who defaulted on loans which then hit rural banks. This contributed to worsening and lengthening the downturn. The major cause however was the idiotic action of the federal government in tightening the money supply. That really hit everyone hard and drove things down. The idiot FDR started his actions to INCREASE TAXES while spending on a few social and make-work programs.

NO there is no proof, but rational economists have a d*mn good idea what did it, and it wasn’t capitalism. You need to read The Forgotten Man by Amity Shlaes.

http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Man-History-Great-Depressio n/dp/0066211700

And I don’t see anything applicable in that link you added.

Realcon
Yes, I know there is a difference between Economics and Physics. I also know the difference between Bull Sh!t and Roses and your posts are not roses.

No, you can not set up a mathematical proof regarding the great depression, but you can look at the government actions that were taken at the time and how those actions have influenced the economy, both then and since then in current times. You can then see how those actions do in fact have a direct correlation with evidence that truly supports causation. More so that the so-called global warming BS.

No Smoot-Hawley wasn’t the sole cause. Like all major calamities there were numerous causes and most of those causes were government educed. Popular myth likes to lay blame on Wall Street and the “irrational exuberance” that was going on at the time with regard to radio stocks (the high tech of the time). They all blame speculation fueled by “borrowed” money and when the correction came this drove the banks into the dust.

cont..

Not your best, Mr. Strom
"...it is well-known that business cycles are a natural part of the capitalism."

It may be "well-known," but it's not true.

The "business cycle" is really anything but. It's a consequence of monetary manipulation by a government or its central bank. Bursts of inflation -- currency expansion by the monetary authorities -- cause businesses to misinterpret market behavior at the "cycle's" peak and make decisions based on bad forecasts. Those decisions are later cleansed by retrenchment or liquidation after the slug of new money has permeated the entire market: the trough of the "cycle." In the absence of monetary chicanery, the "business cycle" is nowhere to be seen.

"Free markets, in other words, do not always give you the results you want."

No, but they always give you the results you THINK you want -- including the privilege of losing your shirt by pursuing a vision of sugarplums in stubborn defiance of the laws of economics and the evidence of your senses.

God save us from both sides!
I dont know who is more economically ignorant, the left or the right!

But reading these blogs adn the coulmns I can sya you run neck and neck into economic ignorance! God save us formt he so called defenders of a free market! They are as bad as the socialists!

F.A. Hayek won the noble prize for his work on the business cycle over 40 decades ago! Government printing money causes all business cycles! The left loves to blame the free marker for merchantilist anti free banking interventions! The right is to pigged brian to ever get off their lethargic duffs to learn sound economics either.

Start at http://mises.org/articles.aspx, buy books, learn, use a brain cell and overcome the propoganda of the right and the left!

As long as both sides are such morons there can be no real change in the right direction!

Realcon
No we did not have free markets. In fact, one of the causes of the depression was the Smoot-Hartley Act that limited trade.

Nobody said the complete free market capitolism has a free ride either. In fact, I believe the article even said that we had ups and down as a market operates in cycles.

And the great depression WAS the result of one of those cycles turning into a depression because BOTH Hoover and Roosevelt decided that the government needed to intervene. In fact, FDR kept intervening sith socialism and kept the drpession going right up until WWII.

Again, just like I said in my first post. You socialists always quote a government intervention as a problems for capitolism.

What free market?
What is free about a market where favored companies are not allowed to fail? When a company is too big to fail that is a sign it is time to start enforcing anti-trust laws.
What is free about subsidizing one part of the energy market to the detriment of others?
What is free about Greenspan manipulating the economy to the benefit of the market on the backs of labor?
Creating demand through credit rather than wages creates unsustainable growth and profits for a few to reap at the expense of the general public.
Until Reagan high tax rates on incomes over obscene amounts did wonders for CEO salaries.

Jose

What democracy?
Our founders rejected democracy and formed a republic in Article 4, Section 4. De-mob-ocracy allows me to vote for the government to use force (IRS) to put your money into my pocket.

Tell it like it is
"Regulation" is a euphemism, free enterprise is extremely limited in the USA, and socialism is even more limited here. What we have is fascism.

Fascism is a system which allows the illusion of private ownership of businesses and other property so long as government "regulations" set all the important policies and procedures. It is not free enterprise which has failed. It is fascism which has failed and then scapegoated the "evil" but only nominal owners.

Fascist slogan: "There ought to be a law..."

Vic
I did not say anything negetive about CEO salaries. In the area of salaries... I think detailed disclosure is needed.

Like you, I am concerned that CEOs and boards are insestuous and corporate governance frequently neglects the shareholder's interest.

It is very tricky to find the right balance and mechenism for keeping management and the board's interest aligned with the shareholders. If I had the answer... I would be rich and fully booked with consulting gigs.

AliveInHim
I agree with much of what you wrote.

Where I disagree is when a CEO drives a company into a ditch and walks away with a fortune. I do not begrude CEO salaries... I do not like how they (including the board) can game the system and simultaniously take the benefits of being an employee and an owner.

Does it not befuddle you how the CEO of Merrill was so myopic and neglegent that he risked killing the company just to make his numbers and get his bonuses. When the house of cards came down, he walked away with a HUGE severance?

There is not perfect answer... but I think the current governance system should be improved.

CEOs and boards are insestuous and not true arms-lenth professional relationships bound to the shareholder's interest.

I never said anything about socialism... but I will now. Socialism stifles wealth creation and freedom and it should be avoided by all countries.

Noman
Like I said in my first post... free market capitalism seems to be the best available for wealth creation and supporting freedom.

I guess the reason my criticism of corporate governance and executive compensation came up was that in many instances executives, who in my opinion were negligent, managed to skate on by and take handsome exit packages while stockholders and employees took it on the chin. I am talking about tweaking corporate governance, not scrapping the free market system.

I haven't read enough on the subject of exec compensation and corporate governance to have a specific suggestion... but it sure seems like that area is ripe for improvement.

The CEO of Merrill Lynch presided over the near collapse of a marquee American company and walked away with a HUGE severance. He probably deserves to be sewed in civil court by shareholders for negligence. Time and again, CEOs preside over train wrecks and then head back to their mansion while other people pick up the pieces.

CEOs need to have more skin in the game and not be able to game the system by bouncing back and forth between being treated like an owner vs an employee.

Profit planning
Communism and Socialism are the most heavily dependent on profit planning and Capitalism is the least dependent. For example, if we nationalize health care, our government will be in the business of making sure all activities they want in the health care system will run at a profit so it will be sustainable and continue (at the expense of profits elsewhere). If you start a business in a free market system, there is no identifiable authority that is planning for you to make a profit. Socialism is the system that really worships profits.

Josh
Though my IQ cannot be as high as yours, you, like so many, are perpetuating a myth called predation. Walter E. Williams wrote about it earlier in the week. Please educate yourself.

Amy Chua's book "World on fire"
Dear paricipants of the discussion ! I want to point your attention to the book by lady Professor of Yale Univ. Amy Chua "World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability". You can esily find it on Amazon.com. She presents a lot of data, which show, how the sudden build-up of democracy and feree markets may lead to creation of market-dominant minority (usually of other race or ethnicity, than the majority's). I myself am suprised that she does not mention contribution of IQ differences to this phenomenon, but, independent of that, the data she has collected are overwhelming.
This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. Yes, I (Florida resident) am for the democracy, for the free markets, but one must be aware of other factors.

Well, josh --
-- since you don't like the column Strom wrote, why don't you share with us snippets of the column *you* would have written?

Josh
One other thing while you are polluting the comments here. How about giving us your definition of a "subsidy" when applied to an oil company as opposed to a subsidy when applied to a solar panel for your house.

josh
Yes you liberal commies like to feel oh so superior to all of us rednecks, jocks, and other uneducated slobs. You like to say that these issues have “nuance” and are complicated while trying to explain why up is down and black is white. In actuality economics at the high level is so simple even one of you idiots could understand it if you quit trying to justify your lies.

Back in the 60s we had a name for people like you. We called them pseudo-intellectuals. Look that up in your platoon leader’s handbook.

Josh
Thanks so much for sharing that. Please spare yourself (and us) the effort of making similar observations. While you are soooooo wise, there are those that need their economic concepts confirmed.

I am actually a little embarrassed
reading this column. It is so simplistic and uselessly broad as to have been written for a class of 8th graders.

Maybe that is the "lowest common denominator" here at TH - a junior high reading comprehension. So we get columns so broadly-written (yes! and simplistic) as to have almost impractical usage in the real world (Michael Medved writes like this too, when he reduces almost everything down to "good v. evil" or black and white).

See you at the re-education camp!
David, David, David. Don't you know that any problem which can be attributed to "free markets", or "Capitalism" is proof positive of a deep internal flaw in the whole idea of free enterprise.

When it comes to criticizing socialism or communism, different standards apply! When Russians grew more on their tiny personally owned plots than on the collective farms, that is just another example of a situation where the central planners just were not following the right formula. When the wall fell and the entire Soviet Union was revealed as a Potempkin village, it was due to the fact that the Russian version of Communism didn't work. Same thing when we discovered that Mao's "Great Leap" was a false start which resulted in millions of deaths, and on and on. Just move on folks ... nothing to see there.

Fortunately, we now have the light bringer, the holy one, the O-factor about to bring the perfect set of centrally developed formulas and programs right here to the good old US of A. Heaven on earth coming right up! He's not only going to save the starving Americans, but he is going to have us save his brother, who is living in a box in Kenya.

You, David, are a nay sayer. History tells us what will happen to people like you. Think of the Kulaks, the French revolution, the Boat people, the killing fields of Cambodia ....


Amen and Sell
Amen Mr. Strom. This is a point I have tried to beat into the heads of the liberal trolls here day after day. The like to point at the failure of capitalism and give stuff like the housing fiasco and Enron as example. Hahahahaha, these are examples of the evils of government intervention. We haven’t had a true free market economy in this country since the 30s and we have NEVER had the so-called “unbridled capitalism” that you hear them spout off about all the time. In fact, we are almost to the point now where the government is pretty much dictating how most large businesses are run and a large part of how even ma and pa small businesses are run.

As for the problem with CEO salaries that johnnyp is talking about. I don’t think that it is the endemic problem that the press makes it out to be. Yes there are a few bad examples of overpaid and incompetent slugs who lose the company millions and then get a golden parachute when they are fired but those are really in the minority. When was the last time you saw a newspaper headline that said “CEO of xxx corporation paid average salary”?

The problem is that the board of directors is an incestuous body as someone stated above, The board members are usually made up of CEOs of other neighboring corporations and they are all scratching each other’s backs. As long as the government stays out of the picture those companies will eventually get their own “market correction” and cease to exist. Too bad stockholders get burned but if they do they have two things that are their fault to blame. First they voted “for” these board members and two, if they didn’t and saw what was going on they should have sold their stock.

All economic systems

(the capitalist free market, communism and socialism) have something to offer. Each of these systems has flaws, of course. The best one can hope to do is to find that workable hybrid, blend (most countries do this anyway, I don't need to state it...however, I am still mystified about how "red" China operates so swimmingly in a largely free market system...Coca-Cola and McDonlad's and Wal-Mart operate very nicely under dictatorships!).

The problem with the free market system, as I see it, is that it is no longer "FREE" when large corporation (Exxon, Pfizer, Citicorp, Viacom, etc) continue to merge, to buy out the competition, to end up giving us the OPPOSITE or choice. The trend here is towards totalitarianism, not a healthy competitive market. Corporatism is ruining America, also, as Big Business and Big Government continue to merge.

JohnnyP
The CEO is CEO because he has the knowledge and access to the money to make the company run smoothly. He is protected from personal liability by the laws of incorporation; it is through that means that he obtains the necessary lines of credit from the banks and other companies/suppliers so the business has the cash flow to operate day to day. Any mom-and-pop store does exactly the same thing; if Dad runs the business into the ground at least he does not also risk that part of his life savings he didn't invest into the venture in the first place. This is why those laws are a good thing, otherwise who would dare risk going into business? So it is with the CEO; the BOD sets his (and that of the other execs in the company) salary and benefits package and there is usually (or should be) a severance package as part of the whole, regardless of how his tenure turns out. That's just good business even if it seems excessive to you or I; nobody with a brain jumps out of a plane without a parachute.

My DH is just one step below his CEO and I can tell you his knowledge of the company's functions etc. are really quite astounding. Having worked his way up from loading trucks, blending gasoline, etc. to delegating those and a myraid of other tasks to his employees, I can attest personally to the worth of someone who has not only a brain but the drive and vision to use it.

That kind of progress would never be possible in a socialist society.

housewar
Thank you for the clarification!

Do you have an idea as to why Greenspan reversed his opinion of the gold standard?

JohnnyP What is your alternative?
Which system you would prefer to free market capitalism and why?

Business Cycles Part II
Ludwig Von Mises, Frederick Hayek, and Murray Rothbard all wrote extensively about how the government causes the business cycle through the Fed. It is the one aspect of government intervention that even stalwart conservatives are too afraid to criticize.

http://mises.org/article.aspx?Id=606

Business Cycle
"After all, it is well-known that business cycles are a natural part of the capitalism. Free markets, in other words, do not always give you the results you want."

I couldn't let this one go. It is largely ASSUMED that business cycles are a natural part of capitalism. Business cycles are caused by a government controlled monetary system and a government endorsed fractional reserve system. When the Federal Government encourages banks to loan out money either by insuring their deposits or by keeping an artificially low interest rate, they encourage businesses to invest when it would otherwise not be prudent to do so. Those investments spur the boom. The bust comes when those investments don't profit. On the whole, the investments never profit, not because the investers made bad choices, but because the foundation on which those investments were founded, easy credit & inflation, is sinking sand.

A truly free market would use gold as a monetary exchange, or some other precious metal, and banks that lent money too liberally would illicit bank runs and would fold.

The Tech Bubble and the Housing Bubble are BOTH examples of inflationary monetary policy and easy credit, originating from the government, directed towards particular segments, creating a boom, which the market corrected for with a bust.

Blaming the free market for a government failure in an article espousing the free market just lends more credence to the false conclusion that business cycles are created by markets.


2 jcthomasva
6) Most boards consist of part-time members who have full-time jobs. Board members usually spend only a few hours a year studding the issues and challenges of the corp.
7) Related to #3 – board members are frequently CEOs and execs of other publicly traded companies. Boards and CEOs know that they may need to call on each other for job references and future deals unrelated to the corporation.

I am sure there are other complicating factors.

In the end, we have a class of people who are neither truly employees or owners… and they frequently game the system to their benefit (hopefully one day I can have that privilege).

jcthomasva
Good question – theoretically yes, the shareholders have a say in executive compensation.

I am by no means an expert on the subject, but my brother (an economist professor who teaches at university business schools) have debated the topic quite a bit.

There are several structural and “reality” of the situation kinds of things that I think hinder the effectiveness of the system.

1) Shareholders do not manage or control the detailed operations, decisions, or strategies of the corporation. The board of directors and company executives are the ones who make nearly all of the decisions and have the “inside” knowledge of what is happening.
2) A shareholder’s voice is usually diluted in a sea of other shareholders.
3) CEOs and boards are not truly dealing at arms length. The CEO is frequently the chairman of the board and has influence over who is on the board. The community of CEOs and board members is a bit incestuous. A community of “real people” you know and deal with and rely on is closer than most distant diluted shareholders who you usually never meet.
4) Usually CEOs have a limited stake in the corporation they manage. They are truly employees, but have many privileges that an owner would have.
5) Shareholders usually have no more right to detailed information on how things are done than the general public. Shareholders rely on, and are at the mercy of management and the board.

Johnnyp
I agree with you that CEO's should bare the risk and burden when they drive a company into the ground, but isn't the decision to both reward and punish them up to the shareholders?

One big reoccurring concern
… is how CEOs continue to successfully play a dirty game. The game is like musical chairs where the CEO dances in-between two statues. One status is that of an “owner” of the business. The other status is that of an “employee” of the business. Whenever the music stops, the CEO always seems to be the one in the comfortable seat.

The only time CEOs seem to not find the optimum chair, is when an FBI raid is what stops the music.

Corporate governance and executive compensation is a very complicated area that seems to need some serious reworking.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with CEOs making $100 million (or any amount of money). I do have a problem with CEOs driving a company into a ditch, destroying billions in market value, and then walking away with tens of millions in severance.

When a company crashes, a CEO should not be able to say “woes me, I am just another employee and I want my severance package”. If a CEO wants to be treated like an owner, he should loose like an owner.

When a company surges forward on a success, the CEO says “am like an owner and should reap much of the reward”.

Executive compensation is a corrupt and incestuous thing. They are not unbiased arms length negotiations. Shareholders are not well served with the current model.


strom has been reading sowell again
and that is why he sounds so smart

;-)

...a bit like democracy
capitalist free markets are the worst form of economic system, besides all the rest.
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