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Wednesday, July 23, 2008
David Strom :: Townhall.com Columnist
Do Conservatives Hate Their Children?
by David Strom
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If you listen to the Man-Made-Global-Warming proponents, conservatives must be a pretty callous lot.

In fact, they must hate their own children. After all, according to these advocates we "deniers" are selling out the future of the planet just to get a few bucks.

That's funny, because according to the research available conservatives are much more fertile than liberals - in fact, almost 50% more likely to have children.

Yet we know that it is conservatives and not liberals who are most likely to doubt the arguments for man made global warming. And by far they are less likely to call for massive intervention in the economy to prevent the "inevitable" destruction of the biosphere by mankind's profligate use of fossil fuels.

What's going on here? Are conservatives really so callous as to be willing to sacrifice their children's future, or even their lives, just to drive a bigger car and use incandescent light bulbs instead of compact fluorescents? Are conservatives willing to sell their children's future for a few bucks from big oil, big coal, or big auto manufacturers? Or to save a buck or two on the price of gas?

Of course not. What's really going on here is that the debate over global warming is not an argument about the future of the environment, but about the future of the economy. It is about who controls the means of production - people or the government (or "government sponsored entities").

The fight over climate change is primarily a fight about whether big government should control everything from the largest to the most minute aspects of economic activity, or whether our economy should remain at least relatively free. After all, control of energy production and use is tantamount to control of the entire economy.

This is the same battle we have been fighting since before Karl Marx declared that ownership of the means of production should be socialized and incorporated into the State. The Left says yes to socialism in some form or another, the right says no: freedom and free markets are inseparable.

In this context consider Al Gore's proposal to completely eliminate fossil energy from the American economy in ten years-ten years!-at the cost of trillions of dollars and just about all our freedom. Imagine what it would take to replace about 80% of our electricity generation with zero carbon sources-and more importantly, how much government interference in our economy it would justify.

No serious person who understands our energy production believes that Gore's goal is achievable or even desirable. But that's not the point.

The point is that setting this goal and committing all the resources of the government to achieving it would require a massive restructuring of the U.S. economy, massive government subsidies and penalties, and the picking of winners and losers in the marketplace (and just who do you think would be raking in those trillions of dollars?).

All in all pursuing such a goal would be the greatest leap forward for socialism in the United States since the New Deal. Following Gore's prescription would make the government interference in the economy during the New Deal look miniscule by comparison.

So why have conservatives been-to a great extent-on the losing side of this argument in the political realm? After all, the political (if not scientific) "consensus" behind Man Made Global Warming is strong enough that both major party candidates for President support making massive changes to the American economy to address it.

Conservatives have been, I believe, too afraid as a group to fire back when the so-called "Progressives" accuse them of selling out the environment and our children's future for a few bucks in their pocket today.

Yet how hard would it be? Conservatives have more children and grandchildren than liberals. They in fact have a much greater stake in the future of the planet than a dual-income-no-kids liberal couple. And in reality the average conservative has little or no real financial interest in the fossil fuel industry beyond the need to put fuel in our cars and turn on the lights in our homes.

Can the same be said of the leading liberal proponents of the idea behind man-made global warming? How often do we hear from the proponents of the global warming hypothesis about how there is money to be made in moving to a carbon-neutral economy? Who do you think is investing heavily in biofuels, solar and wind power, and all the other Rube Goldberg schemes being pushed to "solve" the current "crisis?" Who is making money off all those carbon-offset credits and the like?

So tell me: who, really, is willing to sell our future down the river for a few bucks? Or at least sell out our freedoms for a chance to grab control over the energy backbone of the entire economy?

The bottom line is pretty easy to understand: if the proponents of radically changing our economy get their way they achieve two of their most cherished goals: moving our economy dramatically toward socialism, and getting rich off of the inevitable government mandates and subsidies required at the same time.

So getting back to the original question: do conservatives hate their children? Of course not. But do liberals hate Conservatives' children? You be the judge.

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About The Author

David Strom is the President of the Minnesota Free Market Institute. He hosts a weekly radio show on AM-1280 "The Patriot" in Minneapolis-St. Paul, available on podcast at Townhall.com.

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Mr. Strom
Perfectly stated.

Do we hate our children.................
I have to admit I've been read to wring my sons neck once or twice, but hate the glow of my heart never.
When Liberals do not understand something it is always our fault, the weather, the economy or how to say no.
I cannot worry about the things I cannot change or alter. I want better air and better weather but is it global warming on a cycle or man made?
Heck if I know either way, but I care about it. Will drilling in ANWR and OFF Shore REduce oil consumption and reduce the price of gas, Highly doubt it and see no reason to drill in ANWR.
I know, Im an idiot, everyone on here says its there and we should drill it. But it will not alter a thing, Oil and people with more power than I or you, have said they wanted $3-$4.00 a gallon for gas a long time ago.
It is here and I do not see it going away until Congress changes and those that manipulate things are prosecuted for it.

Great point, Mr. Strom...
I love my children and grandchildren...but I don't believe that has a thing to do with my desire to have offshore drilling and drilling in ANWR. You can bet that T. Boone Pickens and Al Gore will have their greedy hands outstretched to pick up some of those billions if taxpayer dollars. This global warming thing is such a big farce and has been absolutely crammed down the throats of the American public. I'm sick of it and I plan to support every single candidate for the House and Senate who supports drilling here and drilling now, while continuing to develop alternative energy. Pelosi and Reid have to go...that's all there is to it.

Liberal don't Hate Children (usually)...

Liberals don't Hate children in the "Real" sense of the word Hate.

Liberals are simply Narcissistic by nature.

A Narcissist (Liberal) cannot see the value of a child. A child is naturally self-centered, and therefore a direct competitor to the Narcissist's desire for admiration and attention.

But having or not having children does not make one a Narcissist.

Actually, the child of a Narcissistic Parent is less likely to have children.

After being Abused and shamed by a Narcisistic Parent, these people see childhood as a nightmare, and do not wish for other children (their own) to suffer such cruelty.


Nothing further to add
Mr. Strom.....well said....describes the issue quite accurately:

"What's really going on here is that the debate over global warming is not an argument about the future of the environment, but about the future of the economy. It is about who controls the means of production - people or the government (or "government sponsored entities").

The fight over climate change is primarily a fight about whether big government should control everything from the largest to the most minute aspects of economic activity, or whether our economy should remain at least relatively free. After all, control of energy production and use is tantamount to control of the entire economy."

I always hated macro-economics in school, thanks for summing it up.


What the heck
The Conservatives have already saddled their
children with a huge economic debt, they might
as well ruin the environment for them too.

As for the global warming thing being something
that is predictable and that therefore we
should just let it run its course, the same
could be said for the plague. Only there were
those who thought that maybe, just maybe, we
could fight the plague. It worked.

As for the narcissistic attitude that Carlos
so "elegantly" addresses, what could be more
narcissistic than to not spend money on anyone
or anything that does not benefit oneself
personally.

Think a few things over
From the column:

"much more fertile than liberals - in fact, almost 50% more likely to have children" Just
exactly what is this RELIABLE RESEARCH where
you got these figures. I wonder if it is similar to those telephone polls that I have
participated in so often - and rarely complete
because they are so very RIGGED.

"the debate over global warming is not an argument about the future of the environment, but about the future of the economy" Huh.
Speak for yourself. For the liberals, it is the
environment, stupid.

"the greatest leap forward for socialism in the United States since the New Deal." OOH, I'm
scare. The New Deal was awful. It only saved our nation.

"getting rich off of the inevitable government mandates and subsidies required at the same time." Gosh darn, it is always those liberals
who get rich all the time. They must run
Halliburton, for instance. Yep. You convinced
me.





Butcher
"It is here and I do not see it going away until Congress changes and those that manipulate things are prosecuted for it. "

***

The way I understand it, we have never paying
for the real cost of oil until now. Congress
quit manipulating and we are now paying $4.00
for it. In Europe and elsewhere they are paying
$10.00, so I guess someone is still doing a
bit of manipulating anyway.

No, it's not that we're callous,
It's because that's the argument the 5 yr. olds, aka liberals, choose to present.

Wow
Isn't this something? A liberal talking about how conservatives love their idealology more than their children! Correct me where I'm wrong here but:

1) Don't liberals believe a child has the right to do as they please without parental consent? Conservatives believe in the traditional American approach to rearing children(parental involvment). Liberals beleive children should be left to "explore" life on their own(indifference). As with abortion, sex education in elementary school etc... Does that sound like someone who cares more for the welfare of their children over their political beliefs? Not to me.

2) Liberals oppose the execution of someone convicted of killing a child, presumably even their own child. Tell me again how you love your children more than your idealology which embraces the idiotic notion that a convicted killer of a child has rights? What about the RIGHTS of the dead child?

3) When it comes to spending, liberals spend more and most times on programs that DON'T WORK. But instead of deferring the debt they simply tax more. Last time I checked, liberals are subject to the same tax laws that conservatives are(hence their children will be also). Social Security started out completely seperate form the national budget and was at one time solvent. Now thanks to liberals it's about 33% of the national budget and SINKING FAST. I guess they don't understand where this money has to come from do they? Workers of today pay for the retired workers of yesterday. SO liberals in their zeal to offer free social programs to everyone are putting the burden of support on their OWN children. And for what? Increased votes from special interests and illegals!! Tell me again how liberals love their kids more than their idealology?

Anyone of the liberal ilk trying to point the finger of shame at someone caring more for their "idealology" than their kids is LUDICOUS.

compact fluorescents
These compact flourescents blink at a rate of 50 times per second (strobe). Has anyone looked into the effect this has on the human brain?

I'm hatin it already! Poor England.

Don't bring up those %$#@ lights!
These bulbs being mandated by gov't in the name of global warming are strobes. You will not be able to have a steady stream of light. This can be stressful. Ask me, I live in Washington.


"The phenomenon of entrainment, or frequency-following, has a long scientific history. Neurologists first stumbled upon it in the 1930s shortly after they began recording the brain's electrical activity with scalp electrodes and the electroencephalograph (EEG). Researchers noted that the brain's rhythms of activity - its alpha and beta waves - would fall into line with the flickering of a bright strobe lamp. Using a simple pulsing light, it was possible to lead a person from the ragged 14 to 30 hertz beta frequencies that are the hallmark of a busy and alert mental state to the calmer waters of the 8 to 12 Hz alpha waves associated with a quiet, relaxed mind.

Although interesting enough in itself, what really attracted attention were reports from researchers like the 1940s physiologist William Grey Walter, who found that at certain entrainment frequencies, his subjects would enter trance-like states where they began to experience deep peacefulness, dream-like visions, and other unexpected sensations."

You heard it here first
This just in! Report the discovery of a long-lost secret diary of Fred Engels (he was the unfunny Marx brother):

"...if you grab the proletariat by their climatologists, their hearts and minds will follow."

Every word a liberal says is a giveaway
...and you'll notice that they don't command a lot of words in the first place.

Barry Commoner, one of the earliest of the leftist eco-Nazis, said repeatedly that his priority is to restructure the U.S. economy in a socialist fashion. Paul Ehrlich, Jeremy Rifkin, and Amory Lovins, his second-tier colleagues, have made similar statements. All their positions have remained consistent for more than thirty years -- despite the massive evidence against their environmental claims, AND against their notion that socialized economies cope better with pollution and resource management than capitalist ones.

When no amount nor quality of countervailing evidence can change a man's position, you know he's defending an article of faith. Environmentalism has been called a religious creed for some time now, but never have the supports for that characterization been clearer or more damning.

I can't quite decide whether America is more endangered by environmentalism or by Islam. The two are neck-and-neck, and the finish line is approaching.

Global Warming
There is insufficient evidence that global warming is man-made. At least insufficient to establish police that will cost taxpayers trillions of dollars.

We don't need more public debate by activists and politicians who would gain from such a policy. We need public debate from real scientists on real scientific research.

Listening to liberals whine about deficit spending is like listening to germs whine about disease. When comparing the spending deficit to total government spending, FDR is number 1 in American history even if you excluce the war years. LBJ comes in at number 2.

Time to eliminate those in Congress who vote to take more taxpayer money. Time to write McCain and warn him that he will be a one term president if he is fortunate enough to be elected.

Reject Global Warming - Reject Socialism
I fight against the global warming hoax and the entire "green" movement BECAUSE I love my children.

If you want your kids to grow up in an America that is free and is ripe with opportunity, we must stop the radical enviro-socialists from destroying our country with their hard left Marxist programs.

This country has never been cleaner than it is now. Wealth brings about clean evnironments. Wealth comes from capitalism.

If anyone says to you we must reduce our CO2 emissions, you need to get in their face and demand a reason why. They have ZERO proof CO2 causes warming, so throw it back at them- hard.

This is from the same groats
who love their children so much that they deny them the right to birth?

Reid and Pelosi
care so much about us that they are blocking any action to consider and vote on drilling here and now. They love us so much that the freedom and democracy that built up this great country does not matter and they will excercise their god given "know what's best" judgement for ours.

Write them at their sites or call and tell them it is time for them to be impeached.

GORE CASHING IN ON MARXIST PLAN
Subject: WIND & SOLAR - NOVELTY TOYS

.....Wind and Solar apparently are the only energy sources approved by the Green Commies and their flunky Demoboobs in the Congress ...

.....Both of these sources are interrmittant and unreliable and certainly not cheap and will never supply more than a small fraction of our needs ...

.....The Green Goons are against hydro-electric dams ...fish might be harmed...
.....They prevent the harvesting of timber ...birds might lose their favorite nesting places ...
.....They are against the drilling for oil & gas for various eco-nut reasons ...
.....And they are against Nuclear because of radiation dangers ...

.....Maybe people bought this crap when gas was $2 a gallon but $4 gas has people saying screw the birds and caribou ...people come first ...

DEMOCRAT ENERGY AGENDA

.....In case any of you are curious as to why the Democrats so vehemently oppose oil production in this country ...Maria Cantrell, Democrat Senator from Washington State said "that it was the plan of the Democrats to "wean" America off the use of fossil fuels" ...

.....My question is ...what the h*ll business is it of the Feds to determine what kind of fuel we use or to use their power to interfere with the market place? ...Ms Cantrall didn't explain why it is necessary to "wean" us off anything or why they are also in opposition to Nuclear Power plants ...

.....My guess is that they want to destroy the Capitalist System and bring all industry under Government control which is Socialist Fascism .....COLOSSUS

...A VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT IS A VOTE FOR A LOWER STANDARD OF LIVING AND A SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT

Virrudh
Now I've seen everything.

It was WWII that got us out of the Depression, NOT FDR's economic policies. In fact, those policies actually deepened the Depression.

How is it any of your business how we spend our money? You guys are only generous with other peoples' money. Maybe that's why your knickers are in such a twist over the "selfishness" shown by conservatives. We pay our own way, and ya'll just can't stand it, can you?

You tell us it's the environment, stupid. OK, what exactly IS the environment, genius? Are we or are we not as much a part of nature as, say, the spotted owl? *sarcasm on* And if evolution is true, then it looks as if we're the top of the food chain. So if others cannot adapt to our existence, screw 'em! *sarcasm off*

Children. Ah yes, the CHILdren. That is, if they are deemed convenient enough to be allowed to live. Only after that determination is made do we go from there. After which, the poor kid is subject to permissive parenting that results in kids who feel mighty good about themselves but don't know a thing about self-restraint or discipline.

What a load, Virrudh, even for you!

Virrudh
What is the ideal temperature for the earth?

this is a funny argument
It is obviously part of nature that it is possible to love ones children and to act against their best interest. The argument Strom uses could equally be used to prove that conservatives are less likely to stick their children with a large debt to be paid back, but that conclusion would simply be factually false.

There are obviously legitimate arguments to be had about how to address environmental issues, and debating the role of government plays a large part in that. But conservatives have instead put their emphasis in distorting science, seizing on anyone who is willing to take money to say what they want to hear, etc. The politics has moved away from the right much more slowly than the science.

Having lots of kids is not itself a sign of loving ones children more. It is correlated with having more unprotected sex, but that is not itself a sign of love for ones kids. There is no reason to think that conservatives don't love their kids, or for that matter that kids don't love their parents. But kids want what they want now and often are willing to put that ahead of what would seem to fit with loving their parents. It is not surprising that it goes the other way sometimes too.

The enormous debt
that is harming us now and will harm today's children when they are adults has not been run up exclusively by conservative politicians. Liberals are equally guilty. FDR's Ponzi scheme known as Social Security, and LBJ's "Great Society" which has wasted trillions and ruined innumerable lives, are two examples of liberal policies which will eventually lead to the demise of the dollar and to widespread suffering. Congressmen, senators, presidents, and judges take an oath to govern according to the Constitution. About 1% of them take this oath seriously. If the people would vote out the oathbreakers after one term instead of reelecting them until they die of old age, we wouldn't be in this mess. Unfortunately, the average voter is a fool, so we get what we get.

Lon
How exactly do we distort science and who are we paying to do it? I haven't contributed one dime to the scientists.

Algore is the one selling the carbon indulgences, remember. Who is buying them? Personally I think the conservatives who do buy into the AGW craziness are doing so more out of a wish to fit in, rather than otherwise. As Doug says, what IS the ideal temp of Earth supposed to be?

I remember the phony ALAR scare too. It's always something.


Having children is NOT about the result of unprotected sex; there are lots of families for whom the bc failed, including my own. What is your point?

this is a funny argument argument
Lon you seem intellegent, yet you make the writers point by just yelling "but science says so!" when the reason all don't drink the kool-aid is because the science is by no means conclusive.

I agree
I love my children and grandchildren who live in New York. Their greatest worry is how am I going to make my house payment and feed my children and give them health care. Global warming is not even in their frame work. Talking about only causes them anxiety. They want to work and produce and live and take care of their family.

For Doug, AliveInHim
Don't expect a cogent answer from very-rude-dhimmi (aka "viruddh"), whose only talent is to post lots of wobbie-esque (except that wobbie doesn't have the intellect to think up an Indian-sounding handle) bakvas.

American Oil
The oil we find on our own soil will only be sold on the world market and outbid on a higher price, so i dont think drilling alone will have a major impact on price unless we make drastic changes.

We could remove taxes on the oil business altogether for sales within the US and increase taxes on oil exports. This would make it much more profitable to drill our lands and much more expensive to sell our US oil abroad. Heck why not include more than just the oil trade, lets remove all business taxes within the US and do a flat income tax of 10% on every citizen.

Dean
The scientists overwhelmingly do "drink the koolade" as you put it. This is particularly true of those who do the tedious work of studying climate change at the prices paid by universities and government organizations.

You will find a few better paid scientists at right wing funded groups like Heritage, but basically the ones who do have become famous for their novelty value if nothing else.

It could have been the case that the scientific community was split on the issue, and that Gore was somehow convincing business and politicians to act against their issues in pushing sacrifice, but it happens not to be.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the consensus view is correct. But the consensus view is the consensus view. The fact that conservatives seem compelled to try to pretend it isn't does suggest they are not all that concerned with what is true about the future of global climate.

Aliveinhim
With the paying to distort science I was thinking of the right wing think tanks that employ the rather small number of scientists who the media uses to make it appear there is more contraversy about whether the planet is warming than there actually is. I do not include the right wing columnists who then repeat out of context facts with no sense of whether they are actually relevant, after all they are not scientists.

I am not clear on your point about Al Gore. It is true that some on the left, and more serious people on the right, have suggested the idea of adding costs to carbon production to make market mechanisms useful in addressing the problem. I am not sure what you think this reveals. Gore is a wealthy man who could have gotten richer giving talks on any number of subjects. The idea that he is advocating for the environment because it is his path to riches seems far-fetched.

The ideal change in global temperature is the one that does not lead to large scale suffering and death. One is that supposed to be a difficult question for environmentalists to answer?

The point about the kids was to reveal how silly is Strom's argument that the right having more kids shows something about how much they love their kids. I am not sure what the addition of children born because of birth control failure is. It would seem more relevant to a discussion as to why we need better sex education in this country.

Why I'm skeptical...
Here's why I'm skeptical about global warming:

- When it's unseasonably warm, people blame it on global warming.

- When it's unseasonably cool, people blame it on global warming.

- When we have an active hurricane season, people blame it on global warming.

- When we have a slow hurricane season, people blame it on global warming.

- When the weather is unusually dry, people blame it on global warming.

- When the weather is unusually rainy, people blame it on global warming.

- When we have a mild winter, people blame it on global warming.

- When we have a harsh winter, people blame it on global warming.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Global warming alarmists are starting to sound like the boy who cried wolf - or better yet, Chicken Little.

Only Ten Years! Since when?
When says we have only ten years, does he mean from now, or from the first time he said "ten years", three years ago? Maybe he means from 1992, when he wrote "Earth in the Balance". which would mean we're already boned.

Lon
"You will find a few better paid scientists at right wing funded groups like Heritage, but basically the ones who do have become famous for their novelty value if nothing else."

Like this whack-job?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24036736 -7583,00.html



or perhaps this buffoon?
But the science on global warming, and its putative causes, is by no means settled. The earth's atmosphere has both warmed and cooled over the centuries without any human activity being responsible. Dr. S. Fred Singer, president of the Science and Environmental Policy Project (SEPP), points out that a study of CO2 and temperatures over the past 11,000 years that was analyzed in both Science and Nature in 1999 found that the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere tends to follow, not precede, a rise in temperature. Dr. Singer reminds us that "the bulk of the temperature rise in the 20th century took place before 1940, while most of the CO2 emissions took place after 1940 and coincided with a slight climate cooling between 1940 and 1975." The satellite temperature readings from 1979 through June 2002 have risen at the rate of only 0.1 degree Fahrenheit per decade or 1.0 degree per century.

Or this idiot from a no-name school?
Richard S. Lindzen, the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at MIT, disputes the link between climatic change and CO2. In 2001, he testified before a Senate committee that past major climatic changes were either "uncorrelated with changes in CO2 or were characterized by temperature changes which preceded changes in CO2 by hundreds or thousands of years." Lindzen argued that there is no demonstrable linkage between growth in CO2 generation and major climatic change of the type forecast by global warming advocates. Others stress that if CO2 emissions really are the culprit, then temperatures in the troposphere should be warming faster than surface temperatures. The satellite data show the reverse is true.
A central problem with global warming theories is the reliance on two large computer models to project impacts of warming and greenhouse gas emissions on the environment. These two models, according to the critique, vastly exaggerate the atmosphere's sensitivity to increasing CO2 and cannot replicate other variables like clouds or water vapor that also impact climates. Most damaging, the models fail to accurately simulate recorded experience when put to the test, so many wonder why these models should be used to support policy making on climate change.

Censorship?
The fate of Bush appointee William Happer, a highly respected Princeton physicist, is symptomatic of Gore's remaking of the bureaucracy. Happer had been asked to stay over until a new Assistant Secretary of Energy could be appointed, but he quickly ran afoul of Gore and his climate control group in the White House. Happer had initiated a research program to test the various ozone depletion theories then in vogue and had found that the empirical results were not matching the theory's predictions. When he told a House committee that "there probably has been some exaggeration of the dangers of ozone and global climate change," White House officials promptly fired him. Gore had already decided that ozone depletion would damage crops and increase the rate of skin cancer.
Robert Watson had predicted that an ozone hole would open up over Kennebunkport, ME, President Bush's vacation home. Happer had publicly ridiculed Watson's suggestion and so Happer was almost certainly on McGinty's enemies list. Happer, in a later interview, correctly identified the Clinton/Gore approach as "politically correct science." The huge amounts of funding made available by Clinton/Gore ensured that the new administration would get the "answers" on global warming it was seeking. Happer said that science was being turned on its head. Instead of science driving policy, policy now determined the results it wanted and then paid scientists to come up with them.

Even the "leading advocates" hedge
NASA Says Climate Shifting to Cooler Temperatures

Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:33 AM

By: Phil Brennan

The allegedly warming earth is in for about 30 years of cooling according to NASA, one of the leading global warming theory advocates.
NASA has confirmed that a developing natural climate pattern will likely result in much colder temperatures, according to Marc Shepherd, writing in the April 30 American Thinker. He adds that NASA was also quick to point out that such natural phenomena should not confuse the issue of manmade greenhouse gas induced global warming which apparently will be going on behind the scenes while our teeth are chattering from a decade and a half long cold spell.
"A cool-water anomaly known as La Niña occupied the tropical Pacific Ocean throughout 2007 and early 2008. In April 2008, scientists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory announced that while the La Niña was weakening, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation – a larger-scale, Slower-cycling ocean pattern – had shifted to its cool phase."
Notes Shepherd "This shift in the PDO, which could last for 20 or 30 years, can have significant implications for global climate, affecting Pacific and Atlantic hurricane activity, droughts and flooding around the Pacific basin, the productivity of marine ecosystems and global land temperature patterns."

Article
There is an interesting article at daileytech.com on global warming and the coming global cooling period...an interesting read.

virduh
How about we bring the national debt down by drilling in the US and stop sending 700billion dollars overseas. How abut we become energy independent.

AZPhil
I am in no position to call him a buffoon as you do, but S. Fred Singer of SEPP would seem to fit the description. SEPP seems to be a group with a fancy name purveying consistently right wing talking points. A simple search finds that "S. Fred Singer, acknowledged during a 1994 appearance on the television program Nightline that he had received funding from Exxon, Shell, Unocal and ARCO. He did not deny receiving funding on a number of occasions from the Rev. Sun Myung Moon."

So yes this would seem to be someone who makes a lot of money from right wing sources by telling certain groups what they would like to hear. Good catch. I haven't looked up the other two yet, are they similar stories?

AZPhil
Lindzen does seem to have better credentials, but otherwise seems to be much of the same. He also gets a lot of funding from oil companies and has strong ties to unrelated right wing causes. Apparently just as he thinks the links between global warming and CO2 are exaggerated he also thinks the links between cigarettes and lung cancer are overstated. I thought even the right had given up on that one.

One amusing story I saw. He admits that there has been global warming, but once said he was ready to bet that the world would be cooler in 20 years. Someone from Reason magazine tried to take him up on that bet, and he clarified that he meant at 50-1 odds. That is he thinks there is about a 2% chance that there will be cooling.

Sing it!
Global Warming, Green Peace, PETA and all the rest of the tree hugging bull is the new Communist Party plain and simple! Down with Marxism at all Cost!

AZPhil
Another good catch there with journalist Phil Brennan telling NASA scientists that they are wrong about what they are predicting.

It is that kind of nonsense I was talking about when saying conservatives don't even bother taking such things seriously. There are no scientists quoted supporting Brennan's take on the NASA statement, and the NASA scientists obviously disagree with his take on what he is reporting. No doubt the scientists you mention in your other posts could have been paid to give Brennan cover, but NewsMax doesn't even bother to do that.

Lon
Believe what you will. Let's see what the right-wing UN says:

U.N. Forecasters: Global Temperatures to Decrease
Friday, April 04, 2008
Average global temperatures in 2008 are forecast to be lower than in previous years, thanks to the cooling effect of the ocean current in the Pacific, U.N. meteorologists say.
The World Meteorological Organisation's secretary-general, Michel Jarraud, said it was likely that La Nina, an abnormal cooling of sea surface temperatures in the Pacific Ocean, would continue into the summer.
If the forecast holds true, global temperatures will not have risen since 1998, prompting some to question climate change theory.
A small number of scientists doubt whether this means global warming has peaked and the Earth has proved more resilient to greenhouse gases than predicted, but Jarraud insists this is not the case and notes that 1998 temperatures would still be well above average for the century.
"When you look at climate change you should not look at any particular year," he told the BBC. "You should look at trends over a pretty long period and the trend of temperature globally is still very much indicative of warming."
"La Nina is part of what we call 'variability'. There has always been and there will always be cooler and warmer years, but what is important for climate change is that the trend is up."
Experts at the U.K. Met Office's Hadley Centre for forecasting in Exeter said the world could expect another record temperature within five years or less, the BBC reports, probably associated with an episode of El Nino.


IPCC Letter
14 April 2008
Dear Dr. Pachauri and others associated with IPCC
We are writing to you and others associated with the IPCC position – that man’s CO2 is a driver of global warming and climate change – to ask that you now in view of the evidence retract support from the current IPCC position [as in footnote 1] and admit that there is no observational evidence in measured data going back 22,000 years or even millions of years that CO2 levels (whether from man or nature) have driven or are driving world temperatures or climate change.
If you believe there is evidence of the CO2 driver theory in the available data please present a graph of it.
We draw your attention to three observational refutations of the IPCC position (and note there are more). Ice-core data from the ACIA (Arctic Climate Impact Assessment) shows that temperatures have fallen since around 4,000 years ago (the Bronze Age Climate Optimum) while CO2 levels have risen, yet this graphical data was not included in the IPCC Summary for Policymakers (Fig. SPM1 Feb07) which graphed the CO2 rise.
More recent data shows that in the opposite sense to IPCC predictions world temperatures have not risen and indeed have fallen over the past 10 years while CO2 levels have risen dramatically.
The updated temperature measurements have been released by the NASA’s Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU) [1] as well as by the UK’s Hadley Climate Research Unit (Temperature v. 3, variance adjusted - Hadley CRUT3v) [2]. In parallel, readings of atmospheric concentrations of CO2 have been released by the Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii [3]. They have been combined in graphical form by Joe D’Aleo [4], and are shown below.

Arctic Warming Looms
The Changing Arctic
By George Nicolas Ifft
The Arctic seems to be warming up. Reports from fishermen, seal hunters, and explorers who sail the seas about Spitzbergen and the eastern Arctic, all point to a radical change in climatic conditions, and hitherto unheard-of high temperatures in that part of the Earth’s surface.
In August, the Norwegian Department of Commerce sent an expedition to Spitzbergen and Bear Island under the leadership of Dr. Adolf Hoel, lecturer on geology at the University of Christiania. Its purpose was to survey and chart the lands adjacent to the Norwegian mines on those islands, take soundings of the adjacent waters, and make other oceanographic investigations.
Dr. Hoel, who has just returned, reports the location of hitherto unknown coal deposits on the eastern shores of Advent Bay – deposits of vast extent and superior quality. This is regarded as of first importance, as so far most of the coal mined by the Norwegian companies on those islands has not been of the best quality.
The oceanographic observations have, however, been even more interesting. Ice conditions were exceptional. In fact, so little ice has never before been noted. The expedition all but established a record, sailing as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes in ice-free water. This is the farthest north ever reached with modern oceanographic apparatus.
The character of the waters of the great polar basin has heretofore been practically unknown. Dr. Hoel reports that he made a section of the Gulf Stream at 81 Degrees north latitude and took soundings to a depth of 3100 meters (10,160 feet). These show the Gulf Stream very warm, and it could be traced as a surface current till beyond the 81st parallel. The warmth of the waters makes it probable that the favorable ice conditions will continue for some time.

Global warming
...is a complete fallacious idea dreamed up by moron enviromentalists. Thousands of scientists have discredited it and are predicting a Global cooling period instead.

Arctic Warming Looms part 2
Later a section was taken off the Gulf Stream off Bear Island and off the Isfjord, as well as a section of the cold current that comes down along the west coast of Spitzbergen off the south cape.
In connection with Dr. Hoel’s report, it is of interest to note the unusually warm summer in Arctic Norway and the observations of Capt. Martin Ingebrigtsen, who has sailed the eastern Arctic for 54 years past. He says that he first noted warmer conditions in 1918, that since that time it has gotten steadily warmer, and that today the Arctic of that region is not recognizable as the same region of 1868 to 1917.
Many old landmarks are so changed as to be unrecognizable. Where formerly great masses of ice were found, there are now often moraines, accumulations of earth and stones. At many points where glaciers formerly extended far into the sea, they have entirely disappeared.
The change in temperature, says Capt. Ingebrigtsen, has also brought about great change in the flora and fauna of the Arctic. This summer he sought for white fish in Spitzbergen waters. Formerly great shoals of them were found there. This year he saw none, although he visited all the old fishing grounds.
There were few seals in Spitzbergen waters this year, the catch being far under the average. This, however, did not surprise the captain. He pointed out that formerly the waters about Spitzbergen held an even summer temperature of about 3 degrees Celsius (37F); this year recorded temperatures of up to 15C (59F), and last winter the ocean did not freeze over even on the north coast of Spitzbergen.
With the disappearance of white fish and seal has come other life in these waters. This year, herring in great shoals were found along the west coast of Spitzbergen, all the way from the fry to the veritable great herring. Shoals of smelt were also met with..
November 1922. Monthly Weather Review.

Lon
You wrote: "But the consensus view is the consensus view."

You're serious? What consensus view?

Just because you heard it on MSNBC doesn't make it true.

AZPhil
The UN passage that you quoted cites one scientist on global warming and he says it is continuing. Where you trying to illustrate how few scientists agrees with your perspective?

AZPhil
In some ways answering the snippets is pointless. Since the collection of snippets is what is so revealing about the conservative approach to global warming. The UN quote may be the clearest example (although the related NASA one comes close). In each case you have scientists who believe that man-made global warming is occurring predicting a localized phenomenon (temporary cooling) within the bigger pattern. That is to say the evidence against global warming is that models that predict global warming have within them localized cooling.

But of course that is not evidence against global warming. It is the prediction of global warming theorists.

So the fact that you find it significant to collect the few right wing think tank supported scientists and pick out of context data points (although for at least the one you forgot to take it out of context so it looks like self parody) shows the degree to which the right is desperate for anything that supports the view they want science to give. Or more weakly the need to create a controversy.

The other side doesn't have to do this since it can just point to every major group that has written on the subject, and every major study etc. They don't need to fetishize particular data points because the great bulk of them are on their side.

global warming
The scientific proof that carbon dioxide is a significant greenhouse gas does not exist. The great global warming threat is a substitute anxiety. The thing to worry about is terrorists with nuclear weapons. Massive retaliation is not a deterrant to those who believe that dying in a jihad against infidels is a sure ticket to a virgin stuffed paradise. We can do something about nuclear proliferation, but as for the climate we can adjust to it, but not control it.

Lon
You are proving that NO amount of evidence proves a point to a liberal. The FACT that every time in history, global warming has come before CO2 increase, not the other way around, means nothing. The FACT that the Sun has been increasing its output and Mars has been warming in the basence of SUVs - meaningless. The FACT that the models do not predict tropospheric warming which should in fact be occurring - yawn. Many other gases, including methane, water vapor, and CFCs contribute to global warming...but strangely, we only need to control CO2.

Is this how the liberal madrassas program you people? Bush lie, people died, no blood for oil, Gore won Florida, repeat.

I didn't cherry-pick right-wing guys. Lindzen is not, the Princeton physicist fired by Gore for disgareeing with him isn't either, and neither is Dr Gray at CSU or Dr Coleman, head of the Weather Channel.

But keep believing it if you want.

Not real
All liberals need to quit watching reruns of Star Trek the next Generation. The whole global warming argument is like watching science fiction. The plot is some scientific catastrophe is about to befall us what can we do?
I will believe global warming when I see people going to the beach in North Carolina in November to get a sun tan.

Science vs. Consensus
Since I went to public school, you Enviro-Socialists may not be able to understand this concept, but I will try anyway. Science requires following the scientific method, developing a theory, then testing the theory. There is no need for consensus in Science. Either the model can be validated by real world experimentation and observation or it cannot.

Getting a group of people together in a room and agreeing to a conclusion on the basis of no objective evidence is not science. There is one place where that happens every week, that place is called Church. I know that I have offended you Enviro-Socialists by accusing you of actually engaging in Religion, but no appology is necessary.

Any idiot can program a computer to say 1+1 = 3, but it isn't 3 unless you can prove it. Scientific models are only as valid as their ability to model the real world. Concensus has no role in science -- Truth and Evidence are all that matters.

Of course you all want us to shut up, wear our Jimmy Carter sweaters, while sitting on govermentally approved low flush toilets in our restrooms lit by compact flourscent bulbs and calmly pay our Taxes. To that I say Hell No -- Let's instead beautify America by making alternative biodiesel out of Enviro-Socialists.

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