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Sunday, October 05, 2008
David R. Stokes :: Townhall.com Columnist
FDR and the Great Deflation
by David R. Stokes
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The period between late 1929 and the beginning of the 1940s is, of course, known as the Great Depression.  But in a real sense, it could be called the Great Depressions.  There was more than one massive downturn in all things economic during those days of deprivation.

Five years after Franklin Delano Roosevelt spoke so eloquently about “fear itself” - and then began to fulfill his promise of  “experimentation” (as opposed to an actual plan), things were really no better than the day he took office.  His “hundred days” of frenetic legislation gave way to years of false starts and faded hopes. 

In early 1938, unemployment was at the 1931 level of 17.4 % and the Dow Industrial Average – at 121 - was still less than half of its 1929 high.  The Dow would not actually return to pre-crash levels until Dwight D. Eisenhower was well into his first presidential term. 

Amity Shlaes, in her fascinating book – a must read these days – The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression, gives us a snapshot of the situation half a decade into the politics, policies, and promises of the New Deal:

“The country was now at an odd moment.  There was a new sense of permanence about the Depression.  Being poor was no longer a passing event – it was beginning to seem like a way of life.”

What started as a panic in 1929 soon morphed into something more sinister, deadly, and often overlooked: deflation.  As money became scarcer, prices fell. Declining prices, if allowed to continue for long, tend to lead to a dangerous downward spiral of negatives – things like falling profits, closing businesses and factories, shrinking employment and incomes, and increasing defaults on loans by companies and individuals.

Deflation is the monster – the category 5 economic storm – to watch out for and guard against.

Early on during the Great Depression, housing values, though not starting the problem, became a leading indicator of the severity of the crisis.  As prices moved down, homeowners found themselves with homes worth less than the mortgage amount.  This led to a deflationary meltdown. 

Sound familiar?

There are two knee-jerk things that both Herbert Hoover and Franklin Roosevelt did that actually ensured that the Depression would have a long run.  First, Hoover stifled free trade when he, against the advice of many economists and business leaders, signed a protectionist tariff  (Smoot-Hawley) bill.  He ignored doomsday warnings that this “would spell economic isolation” and lead to the “most severe depression ever experienced.”  Sadly, those warnings came true.

And both Hoover and Roosevelt fought the Depression by raising taxes. 

Mr. Hoover gave us the Revenue Act of 1932, which burdened people already having a hard time holding on to homes and making ends meet.  With deflation, dollars were worth more, so the government was taking these increasingly rare and more valuable dollars out of the hands of the people, in many cases sealing their financial doom. 

Franklin Roosevelt wanted to change society through tax policy.  He seldom met a tax he didn’t like.  The president clearly cultivated his image as an enemy of the “great accumulation of wealth” and the protector of the “people” from corporations, utilities, and other usual suspects who become convenient rhetorical targets during times of economic crisis and confusion. 

As the Great Depression lingered, Americans languished.  Washington tended to do the wrong thing at the wrong time.  As people watched the president, with a complicit Congress, raise taxes they wondered: “With business so hard, why make it harder?”

Conventional historical wisdom – the legend and lore of days gone by – suggests that Hoover was a “do-nothing” president who fiddled (better: fished) while the country burned.  Then came Roosevelt on his white horse – a man of action (like his distant relative who also served as president).  He saved the nation – and everyone lived happily ever after until he had to save us again – from the Nazis.  

But, as Shlaes points out, the two men actually had much in common:

“Hoover and Roosevelt were alike in several regards. Both preferred to control events and people.  Both underestimated the strength of the American economy.  Both doubted its ability to right itself in a storm.  Hoover mistrusted the stock market.  Roosevelt mistrusted it more.

Both presidents overestimated the value of government planning.

And both men doctored the economy habitually.  Hoover was a constitutionalist and took pains to intervene within the rules – but his interventions were substantial.  Roosevelt cared little for constitutional niceties and believed they blocked progress.  His remedies were on a greater scale and often inspired by socialist or fascist models abroad.”

Deflation impacted the American worker the hardest.  In times of even moderate inflation wages increase (along with prices).  But during a deflationary cycle, wages either remain the same, or drop, or worse - disappear entirely.   It brings to mind one of the more morbid sayings from those days: “The Depression isn’t that bad if you have a job.”

The fact is that the crash of 1929 did not cause the Great Depression – at least, not right away.  The precipitating force triggering the cascading crisis that gripped the world back then was deflation, something that Hoover overlooked – and Roosevelt missed completely.

So – why, then, was FDR elected four times?  Well, in 1932 he was just plain better at campaigning than President Hoover – and people were upset and wanted change.  

In 1940, the storm clouds of war certainly worked in Roosevelt’s favor.  And by 1944, the people were not going to vote a sitting president out of office during a time of war (bearing in mind that an overwhelming number of Americans supported the war effort).

1936, though, is an enigma.  Amity Shlaes suggests that FDR invented a “new kind of interest-group politics.”  Many Americans became part of a movement that “demanded something from government.”   Also, the initiatives developed during Roosevelt’s first term increased federal spending.  For the first time in our nation’s history the national government spent more than all the states combined. 

And 1936 was really the first election year where federally driven entitlements – a persistent challenge ever since – were part of the national experience.   Enter the politics of the trough.

In other words, Franklin Delano Roosevelt was successful because he convinced enough people he was trying to do something for them.  The record shows that he did not really do all that much, but such facts tend to fall short when countered by a compelling narrative.

“Bold, persistent, experimentation,” that’s what Mr. Roosevelt promised on day one of his presidency.  One wonders if anyone could be elected today by saying, in effect, “I will keep making stuff up until something works.”  But FDR was actually that good at politics. 

As an example of FDR’s experimental economic savvy, one day he announced to his staff that he was considering raising the price of an ounce of gold by twenty-one cents.  When someone inquired as to the rational behind that figure the president replied: “because it’s three times seven.  It’s a lucky number.” 

Imagine what Oliver Stone could do with Franklin D. Roosevelt if he gave it a try.

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About The Author
David R. Stokes is a minister, writer, and broadcaster. His weekly talks at Fair Oaks Church in Fairfax, Virginia and host of Loud on Purpose, heard Monday to Friday in Washington, D.C. on WAVA 105.1 fm.
 
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Too Akagi
Japan has not come out of the woods yet ..Look at their Industrials Electronic , Car COS and price of Loans .
Without Question Japan should have never bailed out all those COS and Banks .
Even the Tokyo Economist Mag said only a year ago while I was there .
What happened was they allowed Mismanaged Banks and terrible Cos
(many records not shown )that had bought Property all over the world like in America to be saved when the Yen was King but when the Yen went to hell they were dead in the water when those properties dropped off the Mountain here .
Japan unlike America didn't make home loans available to those who could not pay them back plus the average Japanese saves $ 1 out of every $4.00 . A pipe dream to 88 % of Americans .
If ""JAPAN " would have stayed out the$$$$ ""Problems " it would have been short lived even Japan admits now .
I am a insider in the Asian stock markets and am a Former USMC
Completion { Son Don} .Judo player out of the Kokan hall in Tokyo .
I lived in Toyko for several years .

Akaqi
I agree with what you say how people feel about FDR. In my family both sets of my grandparents could not stand him. My parents grew up not liking what he did. FDR is not one of the best presidents according to my family. They lived through the depression and WWII. They agree with Walter E. Williams on that man.

TH
It flaked out on me, sorry for the double post.

Recon--the N225
The Nikkei 225 reach a high near of nearly 39,000. In this decade it has never even reached 19,000. It closed today at 10,473, about 25% of its high in 1989. It will be a long long time before the Nikkei reaches striking distance of 40,000 again.

And in case you were curious, it closed down 4% and due to the US problems likely to keep going that way.

Recon
The Nikkei 225 reach a high near of nearly 39,000. In this decade it has never even reached 19,000. It closed today at 10,473, about 25% of its high in 1989. It will be a long long time before the Nikkei reaches striking distance of 40,000 again.

And in case you were curious, it closed down 4% and due to the US problems likely to keep going that way.

Recon
Japan came out of its crisis around 2005. Current growth is about 2% and deflation pretty much was over by 2002, but from 1992 until the early to mid-2000s, Japan was in very serious shape and the danger of the US is what faced Japan then, not a 1929-style collapse, but a prolonged, almost zero growth economy for years and years.

Too Corbett
What are you Smoking ?
The price of Housing has dropped 20-30 % for those that paid their Loans payments on Time and owned their Homes outright in the last three years .
Home Ownership is 70 % of most FAMILIES NET WORTH ..DUH !!!
The Price of Food , Gas , Home Energy , local Taxes have all gone up while Salaries have failed to keep up not to mention Job grow is going backwards . Productivity is down while Imports here are keeping some prices in line(THANK GOODNESS ) ...... When you raise taxes in America you cut our own Exports which has kept America going the last 5 years while the ''DOLLAR '' HAS RISEN AGAINST THE EURO .
That is called DEFLATION you Moron .
THAT IS WHY OIL PRICES HAVE DROPPED BUT NO ONE CAN FILL UP FOR FUN TRIPS NOW ."DEFLATION " .
YOU MUST HAVE GONE TO KARL MARX'S OR MAO'S SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS OBVIOUSLY .

Japan is the Current example :
This is a great Historic read is more than equally possible only happening faster in America and the west today .
What this great article didn't say is .. The exact same thing happened in Japan only 12 years ago and has still not come out of their huge Financial problems even while dropping their Interest rates to Zero for many years didn't help Japan either .
"Are Ya Listening America " ? Nah !
Japan also Bailed Out their Car Cos , Large Business's , Banks and Mortgage Cos .
Their Stock Market in Japan just like America's has been down for many years ..... Just like with Hoover and FDR's time in Office and is still down after those 12 years and presently today .


Chris
Exactly. Ask Japan how great deflation was for it during the "lost decade."


Corbett
What you are saying makes no sense. We should definitely NOT have deflation. Prices that go down as a result of improving technology is not called deflation, that's called economies of scale. When the prices of those goods go down, you have an increase in your purchasing power because you now have to spend less on that good than before. Deflation, is an entirely different beast. Deflation is a sudden decline in the value of your dollar. If prices stay flat, but you have to spend more to buy the same good, no one is better off and in fact everyone is worse off.

Think about these things before you start spewing utter nonsense.

Deflation is NOT a bad thing
The author's concentration on deflation shows that he has no understanding of economics. He has adopted Keynesian ideas.

We should have deflation. Think about it. As technology improves, the cost of manufacturing most goods should go down. If it's cheaper to make a loaf of bread, then the price of bread should go down. This is price deflation & only governmental devaluation of the money supply keeps us from having this entirely beneficial deflation.

Killer
I appreciate your response.

As to the needs of the economy:
1) Is it wise in long term to bailout anybody? It appears that at least Cal & Mass are going to seek a bailout and now maybe NY. There are rumblings that corporations (in addition to Ford, GMAC, etc.) will seek a bailout.
2) Will the bailout "fix" the credit crunch? If the stockmarket indexs are the arbitrators, then at least today the answer is a "no".
3) Is the private sector better off dealing with the motagae crisis? I see on The Drudge Report where BOA is leaning toward adjusting their terms on folks that are in trouble with their mortgages.
4) Is the free-market approach better than a managed approach to economics? Would money be more wisely spent in your hands (each person) than the governments?
5) I believe the arguement for the "bailout" has failed with the public at large because the plan itself is flawed.

Dave
Japan had been land grabbing for decades before Hilter--The southern Kuril in the 1860s, the Ryukyu Islands in the 1870s, Formosa and the Pescadores in 1895, Russian possesions in China in 1905 as well as southern Sakhalin, Korea in 1910, the German possesions in China as well as the German-held Pacific Islands north of the equator in 1918, Manchukuo in 1931, much of eastern China, 1937, Indo-China, 1940-1941.

Hideki Tojo did not become Prime Minister until October of 1941--just a few months before Japan's war with the US. Japan's land grab during Tojo's reign was very modest compared to what Japan had "grabbed" before his reign which included the Philippines, Wake, Guam, the southern Pacific island below the equator such as the Solomons, New Guinea, the NEI, Singapore and the Straits Colonies of Malaya, East Timor and Burma. By the time he was forced from office in 1944 due to the Japanese diaster of losing Saipan, Japan had lost almost all its post 1941 gains.


Mod Mark
The TVA (which still exists and provides power generation to the southern Tennessee, northern Georgia, northern Alabama and northern Mississippi region)was a jobs program and a way to bring energy production into the south. Many aras in the south were still without electric power well into the 1930s and when you got it it was far more expensive. FDR's electric bill at Warm Springs was higher than his home in NY. Thus the birth of the REA (now extinct)and the TVA.

WWII, was a struggle to defeat the Japanese Empire, Nazi Germany and Italy. The goals were totally different. Like comparing the war in Iraq to an electrical co-op.

Wars do cause government spending to increase and increase employment, but these aren't the goals, these are the byproducts.

As for the comment on history by others. FDR has been out of office for almost 64 years, he is viewed (wrongly in my view) as one of America's greatest presidents. There is even a road in Taipei named for him (Luosifu Lu). And as the people who decide who is a great president and who is a failure are professional historians--those with Ph.D. after their names and teaching at top tier universities--and these are almost all on the left if not far left, FDR will always be seen as one of America's greatest.

Renny
It must be nice to live in that utopian world where facts are irrelavent.

Don't worry about the recession, it will never happen. The last 7 years have been the most productive and successful in this country's history. Yep, keep drinkin' the kool-aid.

Bail out Bills *Dogeral Alert*
Alexander Hamilton' the king of all He sees. James Madison's knocked off His feet and can't get to his knees. Tom Jefferson, who'll save us from this credit crunch disease? Republicratic Demecans give us $change$!!!? (Oh Pleeease)

Robert
There are two bands of Cherokee--in North Carolina along the Tennessee stateline near the Great Smokey Mountains National Park (and there because they moved so deep into the Mountains they couldn't be removed in the 1830s) and the western band in Oklahoma (those that were removed from Georgia, Tennesee and the Carolinas).

How could a Chickasaw live on Cherokee land? The eastern Elk vanished in the 1850s, so in the 1930s there would be no elk to be had where the Cherokee roamed.

Pete
You really don't have to be that smart to be a human being. Your post leads me to think, "God" wasted so much time and dirt in creating "US". What is the target of this medicine? When you understand the needs of this economy,then you will be better able to judge the "Bailout". Study hard,please...

Today's meltdown
Just wanted to throw this out there:

If the stock market totally meltsdown today, say a drop of greater than 800 points, would the following make some sense:

1) Announce suspension of federal gas taxes.
2) Curtail government spending for all items that are not a necessity.
3) Bush announce that he will seek DEEP tax cuts on individuals, business and cap-gains.
4) Bush announce that he will immediately call for the return of Congress to slash federal spending by a miniumum of 20%.
5) End the bailout scheme immediately.

IMHO the private sector must grow and the public sector must shrink. I believe the ineffectiveness of the Bailout will be evident in a couple of days.

Do we want the government to spend the $700 billion? Would it not be far more productive to put as much money in the private sector as possible (eliminating the fed gas tax). I caution that without corresponding spending cuts this plan will fail as well.

Sorry for any spelling errors as I am in a rush.

Thoughts?

David
May I call you "Stupid"? There are many books that adequately discuss this period of American history. Many are more than 70 years old. I suggest you try the Harvard library. Ms.Shlaes's book is no more than a rehashing of known arguments. America's greatest problem after WWI was converting the economy (Manufacturing) to peace time. I won't discuss the harm done to Germany and others through the request of "Reparation Payments". Deflation was a "Tool" used by Roosevelt to broaden the economy. Americans would not see the benefits until after WWII. The Tennessee Valley Authority and other Public Works programs helped to circulate money in a economy that lacked domestic production. There are many "Facts" missing from Ms. Shlaes's book ,but ignorance appears to sell well in AMERICA! Stupid is as Stupid does.....

Free market system
I think what we should learn from FDR, Carter, Clinton, Bush and our Congress is that they cannot control the system. All they can do is attempt socio-economic engineering.
I agree we should have laws that are easy to understand and easy to enforce. Then we can enforce those laws
Private manipulation of the markets was punished in the Enron scandal but we support GSE criminal activities.
If we really want to help our economy, privatize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Then privatize our retirement and medical systems. Level the playing field for accessing credit and buying health insurance.
Get the government out "trying" to manage markets.

Children's Hour
Once upon a time I believed in ALL the fairy tales of modern Liberalism. And that is exactly what they are. Tales made for childish intellect or lack of true insight or intelligence.

The Modern Liberal is a childlike=self centered believer in fairy tales. It is truly about self and the rebellion against truth. Someone who does not have the ability to truly consider the truth as a clear thinking and seasoned adult should. Hence the leaning of so many of them [although there are also "fools" on this side of the aisle] into false religions like atheism, liberal christianity, and pseudo and new age religions.

I fell for a lot of that hokum including the extremes of new age thinking.

The problem is that many liberals believe they can out-think the conservative. They are elitists for that reason. This elitism does not necessarily come from wealth or position so much as it comes from foggy and immature thinking.

When I began to look @ results and "what really works" I began to change my own thought. In other words, I grew up.

It is certainly no secret that many folks when they reach mature thinking give up the silly liberal thought they had as youths. Much less so is the reverse of "growing" to liberalism and if there were valid research I'd suspect other intruding factors.

Anyway, the Modern Liberal, from which we see B.O. as MOST extreme of the Senate, offers nothing new but old rehashed mushy thinking.

And now we have a prospect of a nuclear armed Iran, a resurgent Russia, and the New Economic colossus China, and 3% of the world's 1 billion radical muslims licking their chops over a no-nuthin, weak, liberal to "talk things over" with.

I mean this sincerely, please remember, if B.O. is elected, the U.S. as we know it, has less than 24 months. It might be here, but Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, and even Reagan would not recognize it.

Recovering Liberal


No Lesson Learned
Amity Shlaes provides revisionism, an alteration in the perception of history. It is not wrong to engage in revisionism, especially if one illuminates the truth or discredits popular myths. The rationalists should love this.

I have no idea if The Great Depression (a 3-in-1 endurance test) was made worse by the New Deal. And if WWII was the recovery or if, as suggested, we were finally on that road when Tojo and Hitler took advantage of the situation of the 30s to grab land.

I think it was all avoidable, however, by some persistent moral thinking and governance limited to a few good moves as opposed to unlimited authority to make whatever mess could come of it, so long as the right party gets the spoils.

Dreamer. Me.

But there is some wisdom in preventing gov't from becoming so almighty, even if they do pay a lot of annoying bills for us. Eventually, even on this continent it will be a terrible master to our descendents.

Something like this
When dot-ooms crashed in the late 90s (another mark. correction), people looked for other places to invest & housing looked good.

There is always a shortgage, & equity in property is a good bet. But, with the exurberance of unnatural raises in prices, people sometimes not only bought 1 but 2, 3 & 4 sometimes could *flip* them in a yr or 2 for 50% or more profit. Like the dot-coms of the 90s, it all looked foolproof.

2 things happened: over building flooded the market; prices stopped rising;

the nat. cool down ending the 1st decade started to kick in, & for some, 0% ARMS or little int. hit 5 yrs & started rising. People who maybe shouldn't have bought houses now couldn't pay for them.

With a glut, so they couldn't sell them Then the big financials had been playing games with selling *bundled* mortgages as if they well stocks/bonds w/ accrediting by ratings businesses/appraisers. But many were actually worth nothing, as no one paid them.

So, the estimates of the bundles' & their non-worth started affecting insurance co.'s that backed them, other financials that bought them, & Freddie/Fannie, buyers of last resort, held 20% & more of these bad debts.

Is a downturn inevitable? I think so, as long as we like booms (we've been in 1 nearly since Reagan).

If the feds were not involved in borrowing for deficits/ debt, if we as a nation were not living on credit cards/some-time equity in homes, the current mess would be less sticky.

But since the Cong. has done nothing to clean up its mandates & enforcements in the loan market, I can't see how the bailout can bail any one out.

McCain should have opposed it & continue to oppose it, and now present to the nation the way our of this mess is rescinding the laws and mandates from Cong., CRA's, Freddie and Fannie, and except for FDIC ins., decouple the gov't from protecting private debt.

Social Engineers,Panderers,Thieves?
Bleeding Heart Liberal Social Engineers came up with these worthless socialistic schemes. These lame brain type thinkers do not think with a rational mind. They think with their emotions, and come up with ideas like, "why can't a person who makes only $5.00 an hour have a nice shiny new car, a big beautiful house, 2 children, a dog, just like the guys who went to college, got their medical degrees and make 250 thousand a year?" Then, they thought, "This is not fair. Let's lobby congress to give low wage earners and welfare deadbeats and illegal aliens the same type housing as those who worked hard, got an education, and contribute to society, and in return get paid for their hard work, and can therefore afford to buy that Big House, The Two Shiny Cars, have two children, a dog and a cat, and also have the privilege of Paying Their Own Way with no government assistance.

This kind of Kooky Liberal Thinking lead to the Socialist and Greedy Politicians, who saw this as a way to pander and get votes and created Voting Blocs of Deadbeats, and Low Achievers by promising them the same things that others earned with hard work.

Then, the criminal bureaucrats, congressmen, and business partners found a way to Legally Fleece The Taxpayers while making excessive profits.

Anybody like McCain or others who tried to expose this fraud, were silenced by the Harry Reids, Pelosi's, and others. And, the Band Has Played on now for Over 30 years since the days of a Bleeding Heart Doofus, Jimmy Carter, who promoted this kind of idiocy that lead to the bankrupting of our country.

Bailout spending
Mark

Again you have provided thought provoking questions/statements.

My take:
As far as the most productive spending, I believe the private sector will find the best use for dollars. This is a general rule and there are exceptions but few. Government spending has no way of knowing where the money is best spent (most productive use). No one can know hence "the invisible hand". When government intervenes it misdirects market signals and fouls the natural course of action.

As a free-market proponent, I believe it is best to let the market sort out the winners & losers in a recession. Free-market economics is not for the faint-at-heart. Man as general rule likes things to be controlled to some degree and when someone suggests to "let the markets work" it can be counterintuitive. We want the government "to do something, anything". Unfortunately an objective look at history tells us this is the wrong course. When you might lose your job or watch the value of your house sink further and further down, it is hard to stand pat. But if we study history and use reason instead of emotion, I believe we will decide the best course of action becomes clear. The more people that accept this may lead the government to quite there meddling. Probably not but we can always hope!

Boom-Bust: that is the history of free-markets and is not avoidable. If you are the first to get in on a good deal, you do very well. If you are the second person, you also do well but not as good as the first. If you are 10,000 person, the deal is no longer good and you lose money. Is that what happened to the real estate market?

spending reform
We the people pay all taxes, and we are the only ultimate source of all tax revenue. Regardless where government initially collects the money, all tax money ultimately comes from us, the people, even though business has to pay thousands or millions of dollars at one time, and get it back from us one dollar at a time.
Since we the people are the one and only source of all tax revenue:
There should be only one tax to collect all tax revenue.
It should be a single, simple, fair, direct, graduated, individual, full-income tax levied on living persons for each level of government: One Tax and Done.
The best thing that government can do to help the country, the people, and even government, is to repeal all of the many hundreds, or thousands of existing taxes, fees, and charges. These taxes are the federal deficit. These taxes are the high price of everything. These tax eliminations are spending cuts. Every tax that is eliminated is a tax that we the people no longer have to pay. These taxes are the difference between the price we pay for health care and everything else, and the price we would pay if these taxes were repealed. Eliminating these taxes will remove them from the price paid for everything by everyone, including government.
One Tax and Done will provide many benefits to all, even government:
One Tax and Done will reduce the price paid for everything by one-third.

Pete, I would agree
the Reps. made a grave error spending like drunken sailors from 2000-2006, and Bush never vetoing anything.

But Bush' tax cuts in 2003 were generating more revenue than before the cuts. In 2006, they were within 2% of eliminating he deficit.

Now, the worst thing will be raising more taxes and spening more gov't money, which I think is all the $700 bailout is. More bridges to the moon and museums for frogs' legs.

As BOA bought Merrill, Wells Fargo took Wachovia (and Citicorps obviously has enough money to bail another), Bear was saved by the Fed, Morgan got broken up, and only Lehman really failed (they must've been truly bad guys), I think Wall Street may habe well gotten passed this mess itself.

Now, the Cong. has this slosh bucket of gimmes to get it voted, all the glue of Freddie and Fannie and the CRA's are still in place and no one is moving to change those fed. mandates and laws still demanding banks make loans to deadbeats and crooks, so that the problem revolves on in perpretuity.

A worse crash is coming with the unfunded Soc. Sec. debt of $39 trillion, which is 3 times the US GNP.

At least Bush and McCain talked about these things, even if the MSM and Congress were oblvious. The Great O and his kiss-ups who can't wait to get their hands on the US Treasury are guarantors of disastor to come.

fdr
will go down in history as one of the worst presidents,he gave us the modern welfare state and his policies made the depression worse and last longer

Jim, WW2 was

massive government spending on materials and jobs.

How is this different than the Tennessee Valley Authority project other than size?

Why Deflation...
It is caused by inflation.

The Federal Reserve controled by all them artists like Greenspan. Who was probably the best of the Keynesians. This control could not exist without the Federal Reserve. A politicians best friend to lie to the populist about the condition of the economy. The cycles it creates in the economy makes it easier for the rich to get wealthier.

This system gives the populist the idea they are attaining wealth wages increasing to keep up with inflation. Actually no raise at all, but appears so with a house payment far lower then house price. Making the populist vote there politician.

This home price is mostly inflated monetary pricing. Not value. The populist thinks they are getting rich. The rich know this inflated price is not wealth. Value(work) creates wealth(GNP).

In deflationary times the populist sees this claimed wealth vanish. Disappears as the price of inflation is removed from the value of their house, retirement, savings, and ownership items.

They see artificial inflationary wealth vanish as the inflation is withdrawn from the economy. They feel cheated out lost wealth that never existed in value.

They say the system is rigged for the rich. Because they mistake price as wealth, that has no value.

Value only comes two ways. Buying low and selling high, like a speculator. This happens even between home owners or some other deal. One desperate to sell and another with patience. This creates instant value.

The other way is plain old work ethics. Weather it be Buffett buying a strong solid producing company or the sweat of your brow. Created over time.


Spending vs. investing

For todays discussion, I am using this article..

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5352/is_200601/ai_n 21408373/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

Agreed, spending is spending. But effective spending can spur the economy. Infrastructure needs to be maintained, deficit spending to build roads and bridges has far more benefits that bailing out banks, IMHO of course.

I would gladly accept a refund from Iraq and build 20 nuke plants with this money. At least we get something in return.

I unsure about this $700B bailout. I do listen to the voices such as you, it is just delaying the inevitable. But in all honesty, I do fear that pink slip come monday morning.

The article did raise a thought for me. Would a sound fiscal policy, set the budget deficit limits to be +- $200 billion and a floating tax rate?





Hitler saved our economic system

The question at the moment is, “Who is responsible for the end of the Great Depression, and how did he do it.”

The answer is simple, Hitler caused the end of the depression. Most likely more people were killed during that “bailout” than dollars were lost on Black Tuesday.

I have often shuddered when I considered what harm Roosevelt would have caused to our country and to our economic system, if Hitler had not intervened.

The need to win a War caused the American citizenry to remember the need to act like brave people and save our country, rather than give FDR and his Demo Socialists power and time to ruin our country. That’s a scary thought

Although many of the Demos in charge of our Government now, would like to substitute their version of left wing Social-Nazism, but lets hope a larger war is not needed to restore our government and economy to what it should be.


Spending vs. investing
Mark

Interesting points you've made.

When is pending not investing? You child's college fund, buying stock, buying a house, etc. are all exmaples of spending but may classified as investments but spending nontheless.

If $750 or 250 billion is taken from the Treasury to "bailout" the banks, this is spending.

So in your solution of Government spending + tax cuts equals recovery, they are certainly going to handle the spending part.

Expanding government at the expense of the private sector will not solve the current crisis. All it will do is artifially attempt to stave off a correction. A correction that will happen eventually-no doubt. IMHO the longer the market correction is held back and government funds "invested" in the meantime, the deeper and more harmful the bottom.

Please note any exceptions that can be found.

Wow!
I've been calling Obamanation "Carter II" because I'm wasn't up on the causes of the Great Depression. I was there for "Carternomics." And now it looks like we might be headed back to the "Great Socialist Experiment" despite the history of failure in this kinder, gentler nation of Obaminators Without Brains or a sense of history. Why let truth interfere with perception?

Pete, Fed or State spending
"The government should cut back spending on a huge scale"

I agree with this statement in general but..

The first step in this process, move spending from the Feds to the states. Of course education is obvious. Infrastructure project should be all state funds.

The Big Dig in Boston is a classic example. Would MA spend the bilions using state taxes? I doubt it.

Of course we have the Bridge to Nowhere project, Alaskans would have rejected this project from day one if it was their money.

Of course, I am just looking out for myself. For every dollar us New Yorker send to the feds, we only get $.78 back.

Let states compete against each other.


Recession 101, Tax or Spend

Thanks Pete for your reply, by no mean I am a expert in this stuff, just trying to learn and engage a debate...

Spending during a recession, I am not sure if I would include the bail-out as a true "spending" issue. This money will prevent losesand is not a capital investment to our economy (if that makes sense). Same goes for the Iraq war spending, is this money being pump into the US economy.

So I do agree on this point.

Time to read up on Japan...



Response tSubject: Economics with renny
Mod Mark

I respectfully submit that increasing government spending is actually the exact worst thing to do. By bailing out the banks what do you think the government is doing? Spending money! The bottom of this econmic cycle must be foul before real recovery can begin. The government should cut back spending on a huge scale. It is crowding out private investment and putting dollars into less productive endeavors.

Cutting gov spending and reducing taxes I believe would be the best medicine. See Japan 1990s recession as well as the Great Depression for examples of how well gov spending works to end the downturn. See the 1920 recession to find out how the gov can best react to this crisis.

When you are digging a hole and you get in over your head, it's time to stop digging!

demographic time-bomb
While it's useful to consider the Great Depression as model there are basic differences now. People didn't live as long then. With the baby-boomers turning into their 60s there will develop an enormous cohort of the old. The signs are that they have not saved enough to support themselves into their 80s and even 90s. Note that Obama as he cavorts with the young - of whom there are not enough - averts his eyes from the old. Not stupid,he kicks the can down the road.

Financial press columnist Jim McTague wrote an article titled "Bernanke's War on Savers" referring to the Fed Chairman's low interest rate and money printing policies. A President Obama will join Bernanke's war with enthusiasm. There will be incentives to spend now and no incentives to save. In time there will grow a desperate horde of geezers but by then Obama will have retired in comfort to the Pacific Isles whence this adventurer is from.

Subject: Economics with renny
Mod Mark

I respectfully submit that increasing government spending is actually the exact worst thing to do. By bailing out the banks what do you think the government is doing? Spending money! The bottom of this econmic cycle must be foul before real recovery can begin. The government should cut back spending on a huge scale. It is crowding out private investment and putting dollars into less productive endeavors.

Cutting gov spending and reducing taxes I believe would be the best medicine. See Japan 1990s recession as well as the Great Depression for examples of how well gov spending works to end the downturn. See the 1920 recession to find out how the gov can best react to this crisis.

When you are digging a hole and you get in over your head, it's time to stop digging!

Robert
Your folks sound like remarkable people. There are aspects of returning to that lifestyle that appeals to me particularly being able to independently support your family. I don’t believe it would be a viable solution in a nation of 300 million people.

Don Juan - you are a socialist
"Deflation comes from
falling demand. If too much wealth is in the hands of too few people, demand for products and services declines. This is the root cause of the last Great Depression, and unless we figure out how to spread the wealth, we are doomed to repeat it."

We already are repeating it. FDR started it, Johnson expanded it and we have done little to stop it.
Federal government interference in our lives and economy.
What powers did the Constitution give the Federal government? Not many but we have allowed our politicians to slowly increase their control. We have to change this direction.

Economics with renny
"They also forget Clinton passed the biggest tax hike ever in 1993, and he gutted the military as part of the *peace divident* to get his *surplus.*"

American's now have a single focus on taxes, cuts are always good. We now know that FDR's plan, raise taxes and cut spending does not work.

But we fail to accept the Clinton's plan, raise taxes and cut spending to control an over-heated economy was the correct fiscal policy for the 90's. Clinton deserves a A for fiscal issues, a F for zipper control.

Bush's/congress failure, it did not reign in spending once the economy got back on track. In fact, a slight increase in the tax rates to reduce the deficit would have been the correct fiscal policy.

Obama or McCain are screwed, America is screwed right now. Heading into a recession, we need to decrease taxes and increase spending. But that budget deficit is raising its ugly head, at $482 billion and the bailout plan, we really can't increase spending these days.

Deficit's do matter.


Hard times are in store for us.



NATIVE AMERICANS IN THE GREAT DEPRESSION
Seems like i hear so many people talk about soup lines and hard times.But my Mom who is half Chicisaw tell a different story.She says my Fater would buld a cabin in the upper Cherokee teritoty and trapped and they sold the furs because the rich people wanted them.They raised a big garden and found plenty roots and berrys.And my Father would take and Elk once in a while.She said those were the best times of thier lives.They had good horses a good cabon plenty of storage and food my Father built the furniture.It was a far cry from the times she spent growing up living in a tent most of the time going hungry.My Father and Mother lived thier for eleven years till they moved to Mississippi.

GOOD TO SEE SOMEONE TALKING SENSE
It is *real* good to see someone, outside the Ludwig von Mises Institute (mises.org), which is head and shoulders, even insteps, over most writers, acknowledge that Hoover was cut of the same cloth as Roosevelt, and that their policies were harmful at best.

FDR did so many horrific things. Not only did his administration prolong the depression, but they imprisoned 110,000 law abiding Americans for *NO* reason at all.

See my blog essay called _The Three Worst American Enemies of Freedom_. The segment on him is maybe halfway down. It is at http://alicelillieandher.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_archive.h tml.

Bush did not create this ec. climate
Dem. inteferenec with how banks lend and collect loans did from the 1977 Comm. Redevel. Act to Andrew Cuomo threatening Fannie/Freddie with lawsuits for not carrying anough bad mortgages. All money out and little money in creates bankruptcy.

Show me where Bush passed a law (pres.' don't pass laws, Cong. does) to encourage ec. disruption or a stock market crash.

Under Bush until the beginning of this year, 2008, unemployment was under 5% (record), interest and inflation were nearly 0 (meaning $1 really was worth $1), and the stock market was at 15,000. Under Carter, experts wondered if the stock mark. would ever hit 1000.

But at the end of every decade there is a business cycle downturn that we have had since WW II.

I have seen Chrysler bailed out, NYC saved, the Savings and Loan restructure, and the disappearance of %15 ntrillion in paper equity when the dot coms collapsed in the late 90s and survived it all, which all the purveyros of
Clinton's wonderful surplus forget.

They also forget Clinton passed the biggest tax hike ever in 1993, and he gutted the military as part of the *peace divident* to get his *surplus.* When the Bush tax cuts lapse in 2010, and families get hit with another $2500 in fed taxes, they'll think Bush was God.

We are not in a recession with unemployemnt holding at 6%. We are not in a recession with GNP still running between 2-3%.

The media and now even TH is lapping at the juices of sour grapes because everything isn't perfect.

This bailout may not turn out to be a good choice--I still oppose it--but an O election where raised taxes and gov't spending are guaranteed is a true prescuption for perhaps another decade of real Great Depression II.

Pass another law restricting trade and withdraw from NAFTA and the path is paved to mass poverty. That's change you can believe in.

baseballdoc
"a McCain loss could benefit the GOP in several ways:'


Yep, time for the GOP to be born-again.

Go back to 1994 and refocus on what it will take to win back the congress, a new Contract with America, part 2. Make it binding this time.

Return the the GOP of fiscal conservatism.

Put the social issue on the back burner, who gives a rat *ss about gay marriages these days.

I certainly would welcome a born again GOP, just leave your bible at home.


DON JUAN

.....Money is not a zero sum game ...it should be created not re-distributed ...the only way to end poverty is to create jobs ...you are a Marxist idiot ...go seduce yourself .....COLOSSUS

OBAMA FOLLOWING FDR'S BLUEPRINT
.....ELECTION ANALYSIS BY COLOSSUS ...

...With the economy on the precipice of a mini-depression and a possible total collapse could the next President become the recipient of the Jimmy Carter Booby Prize Award? ...being the President with the economy in the tank and the future looking bleak almost assures a one term and out reenactment of the Carter years ...this would be disastrous for the Republican brand and put the Party in permanent minority status for decades ...from this perspective, wouldn't it be better for the GOP, in the long run, for McCain to lose the election? ... a McCain loss could benefit the GOP in several ways:

1. ...It would put an end to the Left's feverish desire to elect a black President and take the issue off the table ...

2. ...It would put the onus of a deep recession on Obama and the Democrats ...

3. ...It would eliminate McCain, about whom many Conservatives are ambivalent, and open the door for a Palin Reaganesque-like challenge in 2012 ...

.....CONCLUSION:

... McCain should emulate Barry Goldwater and take one for the "Team" .....

.....COLOSSUS

Conflicting models
I think we should pay less attention to the past and more to what is going on now. In particular, the economic models of the US and China conflict. We look for growth but China is dedicated to keeping wages and prices low. China deliberately promotes deflation.

Bailout
California, and now Taxachusetts, Oops, I mean, Massachusetts, wants bailouts from the Federal Governement! Where will it end? Should we eliminate those states and make them territories of the federal government like Guam, Puerto Rico, and the others since they are not able to control their spending as states?

Article Okay But What's Your Point David
Are you trying to link the era of FDR and now? If so you did not make the link. If you were, that period certainly was the giant boost in the direction of the nanny state, bigger guv'mint, and the Fed and Congress playing around with our money. A trillion plus so far and the "help" for the masses has not occurred and will not happen because the "money" is headed to Wall Streeters who helped caused the problems. Did you notice that when the Congress started asking questions about oil speculators the price started to plummet? Please explain how the market can go down 770 one day and up 440 the next. Is that because the companies who the buyers and sellers are betting on have earned more today and less tomorrow? Or is it because the betters are predicting the results today versus tomorrow? Hey did you hear that GE's earnings for 2009 will be worse? Although nothing has happened - this is still 2008 - GE's stock is going to lose value. Whoops, there goes my 401k again, and I didn't do a da*n thing. The entire process so far is a page or two from the socialists' playbook and the Repubs voted along with the liberals - of are most of them liberals?

Freedom
It's all about freedom.

Democrats/liberals/socialists/NAZI's, take your choice, don't like people being able to freely chose how they spend their money. The more taxes, the more government control of people's spending.

The real cause of the Great Depression
Lots of people in the 20's and 30's believed that central planning by the Government made sense. Russia liked the idea. So did China and most of Europe. When the stock market crashed and the government over-reacted and made bone-headed decisions, Americans lost faith for a long time in the power of free markets.

We shouldn't make that mistake again. It really was Bush and his "compassionate conservatism" that lead to our economic mess, not Wall Street greed. the government spend about two trillion dollars when Bush took office and eight years later it's nearly three trillion.

No Child Left Behind (or allowed to get ahead), Prescription Drug, Homeland Security, and other big government initiatives are the wrong idea. We need radical surgery to roll back government. Get rid of the small business administration. Get rid of the department of education. Give power back to the states and slash spending across the board, except for National Defense, which creates confidence in free markets around the world.

At the same time, we need to radically reduce tax rates, now more than ever. Yes, he made a marginal reduction in income taxes and corporate taxes and a bolder reduction of capital gains taxes. But we need much more aggressive action in all areas.

Reduce income tax to 25 percent. Reduce corporate tax to ten percent. Get rid of capital gains taxes and the death taxes.

These measures will draw wealth to America from abroad, create jobs and prosperity for all, and end the silly discussions of another Great Depression.

good article...
the case for the great deflation as listed in the article is very good. now let's see how it applies to our situation right now.

we now have the $700 billion (more like $840 billion) bail out plan that is supposed to save the housing market.

many see it as a plan that will save homeowners. that same "many" doesn't see that banks have more incentive now to foreclose on people since banks can sell it to the feds right away. during bad times, people can at least negotiate with banks for a better deal, but given the incentive to get their money back before it goes down any further, banks would most likely foreclose right away so they can sell the asset to the feds quicker.

this will in turn lead to more deflationary pressure of house prices across the country, and lead to more people losing jobs as a result.


The Great Deflation
While I have never heard an Economist speak well of "excess capacity" as a form of wealth that is exactly what the Smoot-Hawley bill preserved in the American Economy. Without keeping the industrial teams together and the domestic industries ticking over, eaven at a low level the Industrial Serge for World War II would have started at a point two years behind where it started. More of the nation economy might have been "out sourced" and the United States might have faced far tougher oponents.

That nothing of the New Deal helped the economy and that recovery arrived in 1954 I learned at my fathers knee. David R. Stokes should realize that it is not common knowledge because FDR took advantage of a new kind of controll through the "Mass Media" The invention of the Web press had begun the process, the Movies and finally radio created new processes for top-down control.
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