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Sunday, May 25, 2008
David R. Stokes :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Appeasement Chronicles
by David R. Stokes
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As President Bush continues to receive criticism about his recent remarks in a speech to the Knesset in Jerusalem, many are taking a fresh look at the personalities and politics of previous generations.

Mr. Bush, speaking on a visit to mark the 60th anniversary of the creation of the modern state of Israel, told the Israeli parliament that, “some seem to believe we should negotiate with the terrorists and radicals, as if some ingenious argument will persuade them they have been wrong all along. We have heard this foolish delusion before.” Then he evoked images of Nazi tanks cascading into Poland in 1939 decrying “the false comfort of appeasement has been increasingly discredited by history.”

Would-be Democratic nominee, Barack Obama, has continually reiterated his views on meeting with the bad guys. He insists that what he wants to do is very much in the spirit of his hero and the man he wants to be when he grows up - John F. Kennedy. In his January 20, 1961 inaugural address JFK said: “Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.”

But as Nathan Thrall and Jesse James Wilkins pointed out in their recent op-ed piece appearing in the New York Times, when Kennedy tried to put this into practice very early in his administration, it only served to convince his Soviet counterpart, Chairman Nikita Krushchev, that the youthful and “charismatic” U.S. president was a diplomatic light-weight.

There is a great argument to be made that the 1960s would not have been as tense as they were if the June 1961 summit meeting had never taken place. The Berlin Wall challenge a couple of months later and Cuban Missile Crisis in October of 1962 seemed to flow from how Nikita sized-up Jack in Vienna.

Barack Obama apparently has little understanding of history – particularly the issues that confronted JFK’s generation (“tempered by war”). Or maybe it’s just that he’s not interested in letting the past, with its clear patterns, inform the present – or future.

Eleven minutes after David Ben Gurion announced the birth of the modern State of Israel, President Harry S. Truman signed a document officially recognizing the new nation. The single typewritten page, on display these days at the Truman Presidential Library in Independence, Missouri, shows the President’s cursive corrections - including a wording change from “new Jewish state” to “State of Israel” - and the directive “Approved May 14, 1948.”

This was a bold step for the American president, one opposed by powerful members of his own administration. His Secretary of State, George C. Marshall, was so strongly opposed to this that he told his boss that he might not vote for him that November.

But Harry Truman was a savvy politician with an autodidactic appreciation for history – ancient and recent. As a boy, when his chronic near-sightedness kept him from some strenuous activities, he would lose himself in books. According to historian Michael Beschloss, among his favorites was a “gold-trimmed, four-volume history called Great Men and Famous Women.” One of the men chronicled was Cyrus the Great, King of Persia, who “enabled the Jewish people to leave their exile and go back to Palestine.” It’s possible that this ancient story may have been on Truman’s mind as he dealt with the Jewish-Palestine issue. More recent history, particularly the events of the late 1930s, may have also influenced his presidential decisions.

Appeasement was never really a “bad” word until it became forever identified with the foreign policy failures in Great Britain under the premiership of Neville Chamberlain. The word itself simply means to pacify or soothe. Most of us understand that there is a measure of this required for peaceful and civilized living and discourse.

But when appeasement met Adolf Hitler, it was manipulated, twisted, scorned, and ultimately dismissed. To put it in the words of Sean Connery playing a character in the 1987 movie The Untouchables, Mr. Chamberlain had brought a knife to a gunfight in Munich.

To make matters worse, his knife was crafted out of a very thin sheet of paper.

Harry Truman was a senator from Missouri when all this was going on and he watched in horror as Great Britain seemed to be officially determined to feed Europe to the Nazi alligator one bite at a time. He also knew and noted that the policy of appeasement was not just in play over the fate of Czechoslovakia, but it also had another deadly and dreadful application – one that would impact the Jewish people.

The British government released a White Paper on the issue of Palestine in May of 1939. Since the 1917 Balfour Declaration and during the period British Mandate they had been largely supportive of Jewish migration to Palestine and the idea of a Jewish state there. In essence, the new policy statement changed all of that. It advocated severe limitations on Jewish immigration to Palestine; this at a time when European anti-Semitism was reaching critical mass.

By the way, this new policy was a big hit in Berlin.

Winston Churchill saw it differently. He spoke to the House of Commons on May 22, 1939 “as one intimately and responsibly concerned in the earlier states of our Palestine policy,” and insisted that he would not “stand by and see the solemn engagements into which Britain has entered before the world set aside.”

Senator Truman also issued a forthright condemnation that was inserted into the Congressional Record:

“Mr. President, the British Government has used its diplomatic umbrella again,” (this being an unmistakable dig at Chamberlain) “…this time on Palestine. It has made a scrap of paper out of Lord Balfour’s promise to the Jews. It has just added another to the long list of surrenders to the Axis powers.”

When George W. Bush spoke to the Knesset about appeasement, he was speaking to the children and grandchildren of a generation that had gone through unspeakable horror. And the road to holocaust had been paved with appeasement. Yet some supposedly bright people apparently think that a U.S. president sitting down with someone who calls Israel a “stinking corpse” could have some constructive result.

When Harry Truman, in a singular act of political courage, and against the advice of men he admired, recognized the new State of Israel, there is no doubt that he had a sense of the past. The internal world of thought, nurtured as a child through the reading of history, was very present in the man. Shortly after leaving office in 1953, while visiting a Jewish school in New York City, he was introduced as “the man who helped to create the State of Israel” – Truman interrupted and said: “What do you mean ‘helped create?’ I am Cyrus! I am Cyrus!”

Sadly, some in Great Britain were slow to learn. It would take eight months before the Labor government could muster the courage to acknowledge the fledgling nation. Though out of power, Churchill returned to wilderness form as he decried this failure again and again. Speaking to the House of Commons in December of 1948 he mocked the idea that his country had not yet officially recognized Israel:

“The Jews have driven the Arabs out of a larger area that was contemplated in our partition schemes…They have established a government which functions effectively. They have a victorious army at their disposal and they have the support both of Soviet Russia and of the United States. These may be unpleasant facts, but can they be in any way disputed? Not as I have stated them. It seems to me that the government of Israel which has been set up in Tel Aviv cannot be ignored and treated as if it did not exist.”

As in the days of Truman and Churchill, so it is today – some will see appeasement as a panacea. But wiser people know better.

The key is to keep the wiser people in charge.

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About The Author
David R. Stokes is a minister, writer, and broadcaster. His weekly talks at Fair Oaks Church in Fairfax, Virginia and host of Loud on Purpose, heard Monday to Friday in Washington, D.C. on WAVA 105.1 fm.
 
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excellent review
Thank you for the history lesson. It would be nice if Obama would simply say that he was wrong but the chances of that are zero. Sadly in the early stages of Hitler's adventures if GB had called his bluff, the death and destruction of WW II might have been considerably less. That very likely is a lesson for us today.

stefano...
You 'hit the nail on the head' when you said the chances of Obama admitting he was wrong are 'zero'. I can't imagine his 'highness' the Obamesiah ever admitting he was wrong about anything ....besides...he gets to make up the rules of all political debates/discussions and 'Rule #1' is that Obama can never be criticized!

Rudi & Arafat
Back when he was mayor of New York City, Rudy Guliani made Yassar Arafat and his minions leave a concert hall in NY, basically due to his position that it wasn't appropriate for unconvicted international terrorists to be walking around the Big Apple enjoying the finer things in life. Much to the consternation of the Clinton Administration. Rudy brought a gun to that knife fight and demonstrated the courage that someone like Barack Obama will never have.

Excellent History Lesson
Might I add to the discourse the famous words
delivered after overthrowing the British Monarchy when Lord Cromwell ruled England. At one point, disgusted with Parliament, he stated the following while addressing the Rump Parliament in April 1653:

"YOU HAVE BEEN SAT TO LONG HERE FOR ANY GOOD YOU HAVE BEEN DOING. DEPART, I SAY, AND LET US HAVE DONE WITH YOU. IN THE NAME OF GOD, GO!."

We have a massive problem with our own government in the United States. The democrat party has been, as top FBI agent Clousen wrote in "The Naked Communist" which included "45 Goals of the Communist Party", taken control of by Marxists. The democrats are now the biggest domestic threat to our survival and Hubert Humphrey would have left it long ago in disgust.

But the republicans are not innocent. Given that we lost a good deal of the nation when term limts were struck down, the republicans do not need to be Reagan conservatives and they too have moved somewhat to the left. But no doubt, the appeasement comes from the "big tent" that the democrats lifted all sides of in order to find votes, alive and dead. In doing so, the conservatives have been marginalized.

What can we do? Talk until our friends can't stand hearing their ignorance of history anymore and perhaps enough of them will begin to realize that conservatives are not who the democrats have painted us as. For as noted historian John Keegan, "A History fo Warfare", stated prior to 9/11, if we do not stop these terrorist states it will be a bitter harvest we leave for future generations.

We have much work to do. If you are not educating liberals and challenging any liberal friends to realize what harvest they will bring, you aren't working hard enough!

Semper Fi,
Steve in Charlotte, NC

McCain Was For Talking To Hamas


McCain Was For Talking To Hamas Before He Was Against It…

WATCH

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/bush-rips-negotiat ing

RUBIN: “Do you think that American diplomats should be operating the way they have in the past, working with the Palestinian government if Hamas is now in charge?”

McCAIN: “They’re the government; sooner or later we are going to have to deal with them, one way or another, and I understand why this administration and previous administrations had such antipathy towards Hamas because of their dedication to violence and the things that they not only espouse but practice, so . . . but it’s a new reality in the Middle East. I think the lesson is people want security and a decent life and decent future, that they want democracy. Fatah was not

Steve in Charlotte
"
We have much work to do. If you are not educating liberals and challenging any liberal friends to realize what harvest they will bring, you aren't working hard enough!

Semper Fi,
Steve in Charlotte, NC"

~~~

Sorry, Steve. I believe we are simply doomed.
Adolph: "Give me a child until he is 10, and he is mine forever."

Now: Government control of schools have delivered Hitler's dream.

~~~
"Semper Fi?" Marine? if so, thank you for your service!
(Ex NAVY. Yes, I know. Once a Marine, always a Marine. My Hat is off to you! See Col. North's Column for my Marine tribute.)

That's Not What I Meant
Obamamama appears to see all through the eyes of a nit. Everything appears as if it were 1960 again and through the clouds of marijane, everything is pretty and flower-like. "Everything is Beautiful." "We Are The World." I can solve poverty. I can raise you downtrodden up. You will no longer be by yourself. It takes my village. Just turn down your heat or a/c, buy a new hybrid and throw away your old car, and use clean-burning fuel.

TeeHall: But that's just a nice cover!

Bozo Obama is the biggest Marxist of our time..

Every word out of his mouth is right out of the Marxist Handbook....

And no one seems to be getting it! At least those on the left....



What's To Come
Go ahead, elect Him president with his 2 years in the senate and endorsements by Oprah and Hollywood. Give Him the keys to our military arsenal, top secrets and socialist upbringing. I can't wait.

I can't wait until Americans wake up and see what they've done to themselves. See how life is like when we have centralized planning of our necessities, wide open borders so that all of the Third World's cast offs can flood in and devour our resources, and when we see all those enemy predators maneuvering into positions to destroy us.

I can't wait until our "all American" types are displaced with race and ethnic "equalization" laws that are used to hire, fire and promote employees in the private sector. Funny you say? Check out his website wherein he states his first priority, before national security and our foreign wars, is to massively bolster civil rights enforcement, seek new powerful legislation to "right the wrongs of the past". Check it out, white boys and girls.

Yes, I think it's going to be fun to watch life devolve here in the nation state of Western Zimbabwe. We deserve everything we got coming.

America, once the home of the brave, now the home of the slave

Mr. Bush??? Pa-lease!!!

Just a pet peeve, but since when is it okay for us to refer to our PRESIDENT as "Mr.?"

I have long ago given up any hope of the left having any respect for Pres. Bush, but I do expect that at least those on the right would maintain at least a modicum of good manners and respect, and at least refer to, or call our president, Pres. Bush and not Mr.

Good history lesson, here...

in "CliffsNotes" style, but probably more history than most everyone, especially those on the left, including Bozo Obama, ever knew.

How can we tell? Just about every word and/or argument heard from the left, and every speech ever given by Bozo Obama.

Now, that's scary!!!






Ratas y Ratones
While I understand the temptation to completely lose heart in a climate where conservatives are disdained by everything you see on television and by the culture in general; and when neither party seems to represent anything that conservatives stand for or believe, but don't give up just yet. For one thing, I don't believe that just because a child is educated in a liberal public school, they are lost to liberal, socialist thinking forever. Certainly, they may be more predisposed to that type of thinking, but I'm living proof that it just doesn't always work out that way. Secondly, there are conservative teachers, albeit fewer than liberals by far. I am currently completing my teaching degree and I can assure you that I am about as right leaning as they come. And at my school, a public univesity in a very, very blue state, I am not the only one. Are we the minority? Absolutely. But we do exist and we are still fighting.

Stokes
How did the USSR best JFK?

Obama is a 19th C. socialist
and socialists cannot deal with history, because no socialist/communist state has ever been successful.

Gov't's are bad at picking businesses to back, i.e. the ethanol mess heavily subsidized by taxpayers while it raises their food prices and helps starve the world.

All our ills are lib. policies:

energy constricted by 30 years of
no new refineries,
no nuclear power,
no nat. gas storage
AND FIFTY YEARS of no exploration and drilling off Am.'s continent, no utilizing all of AL,
no development or shale oil or coal tar,
no coal gasification,
and the idiot promotion of wind and solar power that will never be more than 1% of energy source for maybe a century;

liberal racism that has trashed the black communit with the drug culture (not a conservative idea),
sexual revolution that now produces a 50% illegitiacy rate,
and the socialist welfare community (some change in it since 1996) that demanded fathers and husbands get lost;

liberal so-called environmentalism has killed 70,000,000 globally from malaria since the stupid ban on DDT in the 70s and ongoing;

liberal abortion policy has killed 54,000,000 Am. babies since 1972;

liberals anti-was-ism killef 1,000,000 S. Vietnamese in re-education and death camps after the fall of Saigon, maybe another 1,000,000 who fled to boats, and 2,000,000 murdered in Cambodia in the killing fields, the latter a story so ignored by the MSM after we left IndoChina that the Nat. Geog. had to break the news.

People who expect *change* from Obamanation must think he'll stop the liberal penchant for murder and death.


Stokes
"More recent history, particularly the events of the late 1930s, may have also influenced his presidential decisions."

This sentence seams a little odd for someone who claims to know a lot about history. The Big event that influence Truman was the Holocaust and the fact that thousands of Jews, even after the horror they'd been through, had no homes to go back to. It took a lot of courage for Truman to support Israel's new home because everyone els in the administration thought it would lead to many problems.

Amazing isn't it
how a careless statement by a political novice has become his foreign policy.

*Careless statements*
During WW II, the motto was *Loose lips sink ships.*

Obama makes careless remarks because he's a careless, unseasoned politician.

He makes careless remarks because he's ignorant and an ideologue.

Remember, in The Great Gatsby, Nick Carraway ends up labeling Tom and Daisy Buchanan *careless*, and their careless indifference killed a couple people.

Socialist policies of the kind Obamanation calls for have killed so many in communist countries that we don't have an accurate count.

Obama expert appeaser
Obama must be an excellent appeaser - he has been married to Michelle all these years.

Obama and moronic
"Islam can be compatible with the modern world. It can be a partner with the Christian & Jewish & Hindu & Buddhist faiths in trying to create a better world." Barak Obama 2008 Democratic Compassion Forum at Messiah College Apr 13, 2008

compatible = capable of existing together in harmony.
Islam is a 700 AD religion and has NO rights for women.

partner = to join as a partner.
Islam and the Jewish religion partners?
================================================

Of all the moronic things Obama has said this is by far the dumbest.

Obama thinks Hamas and Iran can become partners with America and Israel?

Is this what he is talking about negotiating with the madman from Iran who has stated in no uncertain terms that America and Israel will be destroyed im Aminajeads lifetime?

Obama and Naive
I wanted to give Obama the benefit of the doubt and just think he was incredibly naive.

I have been listening and reading his speeches and his plans for "Change we can Believe In" for the last several days.

Obama is not naive he is simply a collectivest and his plans will change America if he is elected.


What if we have President Obama?
Will he be president for all the people or just the black people or the people on the left? This is a question that we can only find the answer to the hard way. If he becomes president will me centralize our entire economic system and put us into a real socialist mode? Will he socialize medical treatment and give us a deadly system like there is in Canada? Call me whatever you want but these are legitimate questions for anyone to ask of any candidate.

UN investigating xenophobia in America
MSM has somehow missed this story.

There is a relationship to Antipathy used by Obama and xenophobia used by the UN.
================================================
A United Nations human rights investigator will visit the United States to examine "racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance" in America. 19/05/2008
UK Telegraph

GENEVA (Reuters) - A special U.N. human rights investigator will visit the United States this month to probe racism, an issue that has forced its way into the race to secure the Democratic Party's presidential nomination.

The United Nations said Doudou Diene would meet federal and local officials, as well as lawmakers and judicial authorities during the May 19-June 6 visit. Geneva Reuters

"The special rapporteur will...gather first-hand information on issues related to racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance," a U.N. statement said on Friday.

His three-week visit, at U.S. government invitation, will cover eight cities — Washington D.C., New York, Chicago, Omaha, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Miami and San Juan, Puerto Rico.

Taft
As a result of his first meeting with JFK, Kruschev walked away with the impression that JFK was a nit-wit and a political flyweight. He was PROBABLY correct in that analysis (at the time) since he ordered E. Germany to erect the Berlin Wall gambling the U.S. would do nothing about it. He (Kruschev) was correct on that one.

Unfortunately, JFK's equally disastrous 'handling' of the Bay of Pigs invasion a year later merely served to reinforce Kruschev's opinion of JFK - which in turn emboldened him to place missiles in Cuba (JFK had reused to lend American airpower to support the invasion thus guaranteeing failure for the venture.)

The lesson? The White House actually is NOT a good place to get "on-the-job training".

Everybody Knows We're Tough, OK?
Conservatives have been wrongly stigmatized as warmongering with good reason. The idea of using preemptive force against our enemies, real or imagined, is the centerpiece of the Bush Administration foreign policy. Intellectually weak arguments such as those in this article reinforce the idea.
Not engaging our international rivals diplomatically has already led to one unnecessary war and tipped the balance of middle-east power in favor of Iran and Syria. President Regan and President Nixon both accomplished enormous, positive changes in the international political landscape by negotiating through strength and democratic principles.
The idea of ignoring your enemies is not only juvenile and naive, but also counterproductive because it increases the domestic, political support of the country we are are trying to influence. Consequently, conservative foreign policy is now perceived as ill-informed an unprincipled. The Bush Administration has nullified the idea that conservatives are strong on international relations and defense.

A wise quote comes to mind
“Those Who Refuse to Learn the Lessons of History Are Doomed to Relive Them”
-Philosopher and writer George Santayana

Middle east problems
from Jimmie Carters article on return from his visit to the middle east.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/21/israelandthepal estinians.usa?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

I met with leaders of Hamas -- a delegation from Gaza and the top officials in Damascus. I made the same condemnation to them, (about bombing Israel) and urged that they declare a unilateral ceasefire or orchestrate with Israel a mutual agreement to terminate all military action in and around Gaza for an extended period.
They responded that such action by them in the past had not been reciprocated, and they reminded me that Hamas had previously insisted on a ceasefire throughout Palestine, including Gaza and the West Bank, which Israel had refused. Hamas then made a public proposal of a mutual ceasefire restricted to Gaza, which the Israelis also rejected.
There are fervent arguments heard on both sides concerning blame for a lack of peace in the Holy Land. Israel has occupied and colonised the Palestinian West Bank, which is approximately a quarter the size of the nation of Israel as recognised by the international community. Some Israeli religious factions claim a right to the land on both sides of the Jordan river, others that their 205 settlements of some 500,000 people are necessary for "security".
All Arab nations have agreed to recognise Israel fully if it will comply with key United Nations resolutions. Hamas has agreed to accept any negotiated peace settlement between the president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, and Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, provided it is approved in a referendum of the Palestinian people.

Who is to blame here???


inlwyr Reply #24
Good post but you missed the biggest JFK capitulation to the USSR: In order to get the Soviets to back down during the Cuban missile crisis, JFK agreed to remove many of our missiles from Europe. The MSM loves to portray that crisis as a victory for JFK but it was really a prime example of how JFK emboldened the USSR and the nation ending up paying for it.

lightening_fast_draw Reply #25
You appear to be condemning the Bush doctrine of defeating dictators and terrorists before they actually do us or others harm. Is that your point? If so, I urge you to reconsider. In the age of nuclear bombs, we must thwart them BEFORE they attack. Don't you agree? In addition, do you realize how many millions of people are living in repressive regimes like North Korea, Myanmar, Sudan, China and Tibet? Are you opposed to rescueing people that want to be rescued if we can?

Don't you love it?
The liberal trolls like Boutte finally showed up to tell us that creating Israel was a mistake and the Hamas and Fatah will have peace with Israel. NOT. If you know anything about the Koran, the fact that Palestinians are Muslims means there will never be peace with any infidels, especially the "People of the Book" which is defined in the Koran as Jews and Christians. That includes us, folks. Wake up and smell the coffee. Our various presidents have wasted enough time trying to win the Nobel prize (as if that prize from a bunch of leftists is worth the paper it's written on!) for "peace in our time" between Israel and the Arabs. The only reason Israel keeps offering concessions is because we have them over a barrel. I say, give Israel their weapons and let them conduct their own foreign policy. I know our country wouldn't sit still for Hamas lobbing missiles over our borders for months at a time and killing civilians. Why should the Israelis?
I agree with the poster above who said in the time of nukes, which the terrorists all tell us they are trying to get to use on us and Israel, that we should strike first. Otherwise, would some liberal please tell me which American city you are willing to sacrifice first? I'm sure the residents there would like to know.

Bouette
Try to pretty it up as pseudo-history, or not, everytime you post something it's pure anti-semitism.

How can someone be so filled with hate, and not self immolate? Maybe we'll all get lucky and it'll happen some day. Hate generated spontaneous combustion. :op

You bouette are a Tool, pure and simple.

Paul writes: "A wise quote comes to mind

“Those Who Refuse to Learn the Lessons of History Are Doomed to Relive Them”
-Philosopher and writer George Santayana


I'm afraid that the operative phrase is "refuse to learn."

Unfortunately, we've had that opportunity too many times, yet there are some who just "REFUSE" to look at history the way it ACTUALLY HAPPENED, and are so blinded by ideological falsehoods, that they simply cannot see that we are standing on the very step of "reliving" some of the darkest days mankind has known in recent history.

I suppose, Paul, the only thing we can do is repeat that phrase and hope and pray that they might begin to see the reality and wisdom.

When Israel was created,
the Protectorate of Palestine that had been under British Empire administration since 1919 was divided into two states: Jewish (Israel) and Palestinian (Jordan).
The Jews and Arabs might have lived together under those national arrangements, but the Arab countries and Islamic leaders of the region demanded the former Arab Palestinians fight/abandon the new Jewish country, starting the war of 1948.
The UN with Arab complicity has stoked the conflict over Israel for 60 years by maintaining refugee camps (no where else in the world has such a mandate to keep refugees captive for generations been practiced) and, in other Arab nations, never allowing former Palestinian Arabs to become citizens or, in some cases, even buy land.
Palestinians are not a race or special ethnic division of any kind. They are peoples who once lived in a geographic area called Palestine that no longer exists, any more than the Ottoman Empire or kingdom of Zimbabwe exist. As if S. Jersey residents who became disturbed at the presence of Pineys had moved to PA only to agitate for years for someone to give them back the Jersey land they vacated, Palestinians left their establishments and have maintain a near constant state of war over lost property they gave up themselves.
Due to an uneducated press, radical and anti-semitic left, and repeated lies, the idiot UN and much of the world have become convinced some grave injustice done to the Palestinians needs to be rectified.

the suggestion
My humble answer is close the refugee camps. They are pits of poverty and breeding grounds for terrorists. The UN is worthless. Get it out of the Palestinian questions. Fund neither Hamas nor the PLO. (Until Bush stopped funding the PLO, Yassir Arafat received $200,000,000--a pittance among other support--for Palestinian ARTS; Arafat died with $2,000,000 in banks in Paris and maybe a $billion+ in Swtizerland. The PLO never asked for any of that money back, from the estate of a man whose *work* was terrorism).
Let so-called Palestinians finance themselves, actually build schools, actually support busineses instead of hurling rockets into Israel, and then when they function like an independent state (adults) and not subsidized teenagers, Israel can decide how to negotiate a peace between the two sides.
Demanding Israel constantly give up land, give up legally arrested prisoners, accept a situation of war as a perpetual way of life is unconscionable and defeating.

inlwyr
Very nice historical knowledge and Mostly right, except, the thing about the cuban missile crises. Kennedy had set up nuclear headed missiles in Turkey, aimed right at the USSR's underbelly. After the crises, these were quietly removed. History though, doesn't repeat its self so nnicesly. Ahmadinejad is no Krushev, and Iran is hardly the USSR. And, in the end, didn't Krushev come to America? He wanted to go to Disnyland

renny
It was not so long ago that Bill Gates built greenhouses for the Palestinians to run as a business. It is no surprise that they tore them down.

As to their 'refugee camps', I think that term should have been discarded before the mid-1950's. They had apartments which were little different than those you see elsewhere in the Middle East. Admittedly, if your neighborhood gets shot up enough it is not esthetically as pleasing as it once was. It's not as though they were living in a tent with a goat. A refugee camp is what you see in Darfur. Let's not glorify a warring people.

I am curious as to why, with all of the history given here, no one remembers Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other countries encouraging people to go to the Palestinian area to make the situation look more dire than it was. It was a political move for press appeal to sway the West.

Within the first week of its existence, Israel was attacked. Later, during the Six Day War, lands were taken. After all of the moaning and groaning to get their lands back, the so-called Palestinians just used them to move their rocket launchers closer to Israel.

If the Palestinians are in such dire straits, why do the other Arab Sunni nations not give to them and help them get started up as a nation?

Good Job Dave;
JFK quotes?
Do these words sound familiar?
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
They were a part of John F. Kennedy's 1961 Inaugural Address.

daft: inlwyr is Spot ON!

And, when all was said and done, the reason Russia DIDN'T launch a nuke at us was because they KNEW a nuke, or ten, would be launched right back at them, and it would mean total annihilation for them... and they were NOT into being annihilated!

I'm told the term is "Assured Mutual Destruction."

The BEST and ONLY way to protect us from those who would try to destroy us, is to have them know that if they tried, THEY WOULD, WITHOUT QUESTION, be TOTALLY DESTROYED themselves.

daft: Words of wisdom,"if you want peace

prepare for war...." from "Epitoma Rei Militaris," by Vegetius.


Taft
Taft - referencing the missles in Turkey - it's a good point that no-one on the left seems to understand.

You can accomplish your goals by sitting down with your enemies, ONLY IF you are coming from a position of strength -

- If we didn't have the missles in Turkey, we'd have had nothing for JFK to secretly give away to resolve the Cuban,

- If Reagan hadn't fought past everyone's objections and gone ahead with SDI, Gorby wouldn't have come to negotiate knowing his empire was doomed,

- If Reagan hadn't fought the entire world's elite opinion and put the medium-range missiles in Europe, he'd have had nothing with which to negotiation overall reductions.

If you come to negotiate with nothing but your good looks, you'll leave not looking very good... !

Well Said, Mr. Stokes
Agreed, absolutely.

Murph: Well said! "If you come to

negotiate with nothing but your good looks, you'll leave not looking very good... !"

And, what Bozo Obama and the left also don't seem to understand is that Ahmadinejad really has nothing to lose or gain my negotiating, and is willing to give up pretty much everything...

After all, that's their goal... convert or kill everyone, and heaven and 72 virgins.

If they can think this through, logically, they'd understand....

"Hello Mr. Ahmajinidad..."
".. it's me Barry-O. Just getting settled, here - listen, I'm going to drop by next week... and I know you are going to feint when I sneeze... because it works at home on the college kids..."


Obama on Iraq I
October 2, 2002, Chicago Wearing a war is not an option pin, Obama called to the crowd," The Iraq war is a dumb war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle, but on politics."

When America was obtaining clear victories on the ground in Iraq, Obama wrote in The Audacity of Hope, "I began to suspect that I might have been wrong [about the war]"

On March 28, 2003, on CNN, Obama claimed, "I absolutely want to make sure that the troops have sufficient support to be able to win."

At the Democratic National Convention that July, 2004, his only mention of the war was, "There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported it."

July, 2004 "The failure of the Iraqi state would be a disaster...It would dishonor the 900-plus men and women who have already died. . . . It would be a betrayal of the promise that we made to the Iraqi people, and it would be hugely destabilizing from a national security perspective.".

July 26, 2004 "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know." The New York Times

2004 "I'm always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought [the war] was such a bad idea was that I didn't have the benefit of U.S. intelligence," The New Yorker

November 2005 speech, he called for a gradual withdrawal of forces. "Notice that I say 'reduce,' and not 'fully withdraw [troops]'"


Obama on Iraq II
December, 2005), "It is arguable that the best politics going into '06 would be a clear, succinct message: 'Let's bring our troops home...But whether that's the best policy right now, I don't feel comfortable saying it is." Chicago Tribune

July 2007 "Presidential hopeful Barack Obama said the United States cannot use its military to solve humanitarian problems and that preventing a potential genocide in Iraq isn't a good enough reason to keep U.S. forces there."

March, 2008 Obama's website states, "Obama will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months."

March 7, 2008 Obama's then key foreign policy advisor Samantha Power, spoke on the commitment to get combat forces out in 16 months. "You can't make a commitment in March 2008 about what circumstances will be like in January of 2009."


Obama on Iraq III
Anyone know what the Obama du jour is on Iraq??

Talk
Talk will claim victory where there is none, truce while rockets rain down on Israel, denial of historical facts continuously telling the big lie so their people believe it truth. No premise can be found on which to intelligently discuss peace between the Muslim world and Israel.
Israel should never have given in to pressure from the US or anyone by giving up territory for worthless handshakes and paper.

Appeasement, Harry Truman and History
Read or Listen to Harry Truman's prescient Farewell Address.

Here's a link to the Truman Library...it's well worth the short time it takes to read or listen....


http://www.trumanlibrary.org/calendar/viewpapers.php?pid=20 59

This is a very interesting and enlightening speech. I wish all Americans would read it and think about the history lessons that Truman learned and applied.

His words on appeasement and the lessons learned from history, especially post World War I provide more insight regarding United States actions in not only Korea but later ones in Viet Nam and the Middle East. Insights and lessons that our national press, academics, and current pop culture either don't grasp or ignore and explain away as aggression and economic imperialism. There is an ongoing international game of Risk / Chess with a changing set of serious players who will always be ready to exploit weakness and any opportunity. The end game is power and domination.

Truman lists the accomplishments of his administration including the Marshall Plan, the UN, the rebuilding of Japan, the transition from a War economy, Civil Rights initiatives, etc. Oh yeah, and concluding the wars in Europe and Asia/Pacific.

I wonder if in today's poisoned partisan political climate, could anything like this impressive list be accomplished at all, let alone in such a short time.


rigdone
Why can't one talk "intelligently discuss Peace between Muslims and Israel"? That sounds very anti-Semitic, and ignorant. The Muslim world has on several occasions shown to be friends of Jews. In Iran during WW II trains of Jewish children found refuge, at a time when America had turned away boat loads.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7119474.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5367892.stm

Taft and la la land
Taft wrote: "Why can't one talk "intelligently discuss Peace between Muslims and Israel"?
================================================

One can Taft - getting two is the difficulty.

You need to take "a big boy pill" and grow up.

Obama will be all ears
"Islam can be compatible with the modern world. It can be a partner with the Christian & Jewish & Hindu & Buddhist faiths in trying to create a better world." Barak Obama 2008 Democratic Compassion Forum at Messiah College Apr 13, 2008

compatible = capable of existing together in harmony.
Islam is a 700 AD religion and has NO rights for women.

partner = to join as a partner.
Islam and the Jewish religion partners?
================================================

What will be Obamas opening statement be "I am all ears?".

Obama thinks Hamas and Iran can become partners with America and Israel?

“At the “World Without Zionism” conference held in Tehran in October 2005, as the crowd chanted “death to Israel, death to America, death to England,” the Iranian President Ahminajead said...with the help of the Almighty, we shall soon experience a world without America and Zionism, notwithstanding those who doubt.”

Taft and Intelligent Talks
I have a project for you.

Why don't you schedule a little set down meeting with the Nation of Islam, the Black Seperatist Movement and the KKK and American Nazi Party and have an intelligent talk with them about unity and becoming partners.

We will breathlessly await to hear your report and the progress you are making.

Mentor Wright and David Duke could be your moderators.

Retired Geek
All Muslims are not the same as the hate exhibited in groups like the KKK. That was my point. Also, the KKK is basically a cultural, hate type of organization. I wouldn't advocate talking to the likes of anything like that. Talks with Iran would be on a deferent level. Iran certainly has wily, radical, and untrustworthy elements to their politics, but one could possibly still garner positive rewards from them. Iran is not the total nutcase they are made out to be by some. In the Iraq/Iran war in the 80's they were only too happy to settle a peace and an end to the bloodshed. We also tend to forget that Iran helped us in Afghanistan and also the Maliki government has shown considerable gratitude to Iran's efforts in stabilizing his government.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0728/p01s02-wome.html

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=56077§ionid=351020 201

MAD
The problem with the " mutually assured destruction" route is you have to be confident the other side believes in it.

"We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for paganism. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world." Ayatollah Khomeini

How do you have reasonable talks with people like that, including their disciples, i.e. Ahmadinejad? To them, MAD is not a deterrent, it's an inducement.

Remember a time in September
Does anyone remember the group "Black September"? They were run out of what country? And why? And what was the name of the group that was expelled from Jordan ? Where are their descendants living now?

Tibby

sleeper
If you have time, try to read a thing the NY Times had in the sunday paper. Here is one excerpt.

"Every religion has had its martyrs—think of the early Christians and Jews defying the Roman Empire—and Islam too has its pantheon of martyrs. But the Koran categorically forbids suicide. Until al-Qaeda began turning religious texts on their heads, martyrdom was accepted only as the last resort of a cornered Muslim warrior and not as a willfully planned death. This radical change in the concept of martyrdom has been viewed by many commentators as the license for modern Islamic terrorism."

http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=68320972161685698 77&postID=7864352551794331977

Iran is not AQ and as in the Iran/Iraq war, showed a willingness to discontinue a bloody conflict, rather than prolong death.

daft: WHAT IS YOUR POINT????

"But the Koran categorically forbids suicide. Until al-Qaeda began turning religious texts on their heads, martyrdom was accepted only as the last resort of a cornered Muslim warrior and not as a willfully planned death."

Yeah, SO WHAT?

Tell that to CAIR! Tell that to the radical Islamics! Tell that to al Qaeda! Tell that to Ahmadinejad!

You still don't get it! They not only WANT to convert or kill us, it's their GOAL! AND, they're willing to DIE to do it... Remember the 72 virgins thing???

Wake up!!!!!!

Taft
Khomeini was not AQ either. Iran showed a willingness to discontinue a bloody conflict only after nearly a million of its citizens had died. In that war, Iran sometimes sent massive numbers of older men, children, and sometimes women as human 'waves' against Iraq's better-equipped forces. Although thousands upon thousands of these poorly armed forces were slaughtered with each assault, the Iranian government continued to send them to the front. I suppose they decided to negotiate when they ran out of 'volunteers.'
By the way, I stopped respecting the New York Times opinion a long time ago.

Anne's Blathering
AQ and Iran, apples and oranges. Didn't you read the post I gave that had Zawahiri wishing fervently that Bush would attack Iran? Educate yourself Anne with something better than Fox News our democracy depends on well informed citizens and I do believe you do love this country. You didn't obviously read the link I provided below. Read it Anne and stop wasting my time.


sleeper
Your right. they did have a massive death rate, and all in the name of defending their country, and they did show, that they were not interested in complete annihilation as in a nuclear retaliation form the US and Israel. One US sub could destroy most of Iran.

sleeper
I understand one's views about the Times, but this is a review of books by an expert in the field and from a guy who happened to be in Kabul, 1980?, when the Russian tanks rolled into town.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/21473

Ahmed Rashid

daft: DOESN'T MEAN IT'S TRUE....
Getting just a little testy, are we daft?

Kind of like the "story" about the koran that was flushed down the toilet at Gitmo... al Qaeda KILLED PEOPLE because of that NYSLime story, and IT NEVER HAPPENED!!!!!!

"AQ and Iran, apples and oranges."

Really?

Well daft, it's obvious that I AM quite WELL educated and VERY informed... OBVIOUSLY FAR MORE EDUCATED AND INFORMED THAN YOU....

But, you go right ahead and believe the NYSlime columns/blogs, etc. that simply agree with your limited point of view.... No doubt that makes you happy....

But, that's okay... if.. (God forbid) Bozo Obama gets elected, I'll make sure that your wife gets a discount on the bruka that she will have to wear...
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