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Friday, April 24, 2009
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Lifesaving Memos
by David Limbaugh
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I sincerely hope our justifiable anxiety over government spending and taxes will not obscure our vision in regard to other alarming threats to our liberties resulting from radical policy changes from the Obama administration, including those concerning our national security.

The administration's endless multi-continent America-bashing expeditions, its hostility to strategic missile defense, its look-the-other-way approach to the ongoing nuclear and ballistic missile advancements of rogue nations while flirting with dismantling our own, and its reported termination of assembly line production of F-22 fighters -- while China and Russia are engaged in the full-tilt manufacturing of fifth-generation fighter jets -- are representative of its new approach.

But in my view, the second-biggest outrage unfolded this week, with the administration's gratuitous decision to release internal CIA memos broadcasting our enhanced interrogation techniques against enemy combatant prisoners following the 9/11 attacks. The ultimate outrage is the administration's green light to Congress to prosecute Bush administration officials for these policies, which manifestly prevented terrorist attacks and saved American lives. If these efforts make it past the partisan fantasies of such congressional charlatans as Sen. Pat Leahy of Vermont, the slumbering public might finally awaken to the totalitarian thuggery of the leftists currently in charge of the government.

Here are just a few things to consider as we contemplate these outrages:

--The administration voluntarily surrendered and published these memos instead of objecting to their discovery by the American Civil Liberties Union, assuring us, quite unconvincingly, that President Obama wrestled deeply with the issue.

--The administration's subsequent statements betray his disingenuousness about agonizing over this decision, as he has made clear his belief that it is a false choice to say we have to decide between our safety and our values. If there was no real choice, there was no real agonizing.

--It might be a false choice all right, but it's false in the exact opposite way Obama suggests because releasing the memos clearly undermines our national security, whereas withholding them does not compromise our values -- nor does the use of the enhanced interrogation techniques they describe.

--Four former CIA chiefs -- Michael Hayden, Porter Goss, George Tenet and John Deutch -- and Obama's current CIA chief, Leon Panetta, all warned Obama not to release the documents because it could compromise intelligence operations. The director of national intelligence, Dennis Blair, admitted, "High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qaida organization that was attacking this country."

--Hillary's Clinton's insolent slander of Dick Cheney's integrity to evade the question regarding the proven effectiveness of the interrogation techniques notwithstanding, the techniques worked to save lives. Before 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded, his only answer to interrogators inquiring about future attacks on the United States was, "Soon, you will know." Indeed, soon they did know because they waterboarded him and extracted information leading to the capture of key al-Qaida operatives and the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that was planning to attack Los Angeles -- the "second wave" plot.

--In releasing the memos, the administration proved it was playing politics instead of promoting our values or national security, because it deliberately redacted information in those memos detailing the success of the interrogations, information that would justify the administration's actions but the release of which would not compromise our national security. So the administration released information that will undermine our trust with foreign intelligence services, compromise our intelligence capacities in the future, and enable terrorists to train and prepare for us, but it blacked out portions solely because they would place Bush officials in a more favorable light.

--Administration officials and congressional Democrats want to prosecute Bush officials, including law professors who provided good-faith legal opinions on torture -- criminalizing policy and legal differences -- when we know Congress members themselves approved of the interrogation techniques in advance.

--Reasonable people can disagree as to whether waterboarding or other enhanced interrogation techniques constitute torture. Reasonable people can also disagree whether use of those techniques -- or even more severe techniques, which we might objectively call torture -- to save lives violates American values. It's easy for the ivory tower partisans to say "never," but I question the morality of those who would sit idly by in moral superiority while their own loved ones and others are massacred. What American value is promoted by sacrificing fellow Americans?

--Reasonable people must admit, however, that members of al-Qaida are not entitled to Geneva Conventions protections. Attorney General Eric Holder himself said in 2002 that they are not. One may reasonably say Americans should nonetheless still not engage in these interrogation practices, but they may not reasonably say that authors of legal opinions condoning the practice should be the subject of criminal retribution.

God help us all.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Don't hide the sin...
Mr. Limbaugh you lack moral character by defending a crime called torture, which was against the law of his land until Bush became president. It has never been proved that torture works. Really! Mr. Limbaugh must confuse television shows like 24 with reality. As a Christian, evil deeds must be brought out into the light so that it is not repeated.

AMERICANS call it TORTURE
====
Waterboarding,

We PROSECUTED it after WW II and it was designated as illegal by U.S. generals leading to a U.S. soldier receiving a court-martial during the Vietnam War(a). In 1983, Texas Sheriff James Parker was charged,along with three of his deputies, and convicted to four years in prison for using this torture (b).

====

Even George Tenet, the C.I.A. director who insisted that the agency had thoroughly researched its proposal and pressed it on other officials, did not examine the history of the most shocking method, the near-drowning technique known as waterboarding.


The top officials he briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition(c).

One waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia (d).







(a) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/ 10/04/AR2006100402005.html

(b) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886 834

(c) http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.htm l?_r=3&ref=global-home

(d) http://www.harrellfletcher.com/theamericanwar/wrm4.html



====

On 9/12 what would you say to waterboard
What most people do not know is Saddam tried to assisinate George Bush's daddy. George then vowed he would get Saddam somehow, and he did...

Now on 9/12 if we found one of the pilots alive, say he parachuted... Few would care if we lopped off his head or tossed him off the next highest building. Now we are here safe and sound and do not know why we get gutless.

America with all these liberals and cross sexuals and porn on the web for litte kids and political parties who support a wussy posture is getting worse by the year.

Don Jones
TownhallPlus.com

Too bad BUSH Ignored Warning
Right THPlus?
Then we wouldn't even have to play your 9/12 "WHAT IF" game.

The FACT STILL IS, WE AS AMERICANS have prosecuted our own and others, on our home soil and abroad, those who engage in waterboarding.


Threats to our Liberties? -
With a little mass-murder, very, very much, threats to our Liberties:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/repeal-fire-safe-cigarette -laws

The Culprit's of this - (link will probably have to be typed in, please do): http://nfpa.typepad.com/firesafecigarettes/

Correct
Geneva Conventions, 1949 were not attended by Iraq, or Afghanistan. They do not fall under these rules of engagement. Get the hell over it, all of you. Because Barack Obama is going to prosecute the people who approved the methods, then Congress who voted for the use of force, is as complicit as any of them.
Don't you people understand how ludicrous this is? We are fighting a war, and whether or not torture meets someone's definition does not matter.

Put the shoe on the other foot. What would you be saying of Bush now, if that attack in LA were followed through? You would be bashing him for not keeping us safe.

So, in my mind, I would have done what ever is necessary to stop it. ANYFUKKING THING. THIS IS OUR COUNTRY AND OUR PEOPLE FOR GOD"S SAKE!!

WE DO NOT NEED TO KNOW EVERY THING THAT GOES ON TO KEEP US SAFE.

You freaking leftists want the government to fix things and when they do, you stamp your feet and say it's your right to know. WTF? Get a clue.

I had a hunch...
That David Limbaugh would make this (false) claim.

"Indeed, soon they did know because they waterboarded him and extracted information leading to the capture of key al-Qaida operatives and the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that was planning to attack Los Angeles -- the "second wave" plot."

In fairness, it may have helped lead to the closing down of the terror cell (maybe), but it didn't stop any planned LA attack. The attack had been canceled before KSM was even captured.

http://www.orble.com/the-torture-memos-and-an-la-story/

Yet another entry for the David Limbaugh Truth Watch.

David L.
You must have been in a hurry, and made many mistakes.

"--Reasonable people must admit, however, that members of al-Qaida are not entitled to Geneva Conventions protections."

The Supreme Court laid to rest any uncertainty when it said AQ is covered. It also against our own law in the US to torture people.

The problem is that since you're a fan of torture, you see no reason to cherish other Christian values, like truthfulness either.

Looks like the moonbats are out enmasse

Hard to maintain the moral high ground when you’re dead.

Limbaugh writes: "the slumbering public

might finally awaken to the totalitarian thuggery of the leftists currently in charge of the government."


This article was in the Canada Free Press March 24, 2009

"Obama is destroying America-Even foreign
countries are scratching their heads and=2 0wondering why Americans are asleep at the wheel ! ! !"


Posted on http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/blog1/

"Americans Largely Silent as Their Nation is Systematically Destroyed"
By JB Williams


”After trillions in taxpayer debt has been foolishly poured into the bottomless black hole of leftist wealth redistribution programs, under the guise of economic “stimulus” or “stabilization” legislation, the new “ONE World” government running Washington DC announces; Geithner, Bernanke Call for New Wind-Down Powers After AIG… and the people still sit silent as they watch Obamanation growing unbridled power.

”Geithner Asks Congress for even Broader Power to Seize private Firms as the average American stumbles through their daily routine as if nothing is happening. Canada Free Press managing editor Judi McLeod writes No cheerleader for propping up greenback at G20 summit asking, “Is the table being set for One World Government rather than speeding the recovery of the worldwide recession at next week’s G20 London summit?”

”Obamanation has taken the nation from a trillion in debt to over $4 trillion in debt in the first sixty days, with even more federal spending promised, which could put the nation $10 trillion in debt before the 2010 mid-term election cycle. Amnesty for illegals and ACORN led redistrict ing will make 2010 and beyond a moot point. Still, beyond the movement to mail tea bags to members of congress or file another legal demand for proof of Obama’s constitutional eligibility for the office he holds, both of which are like whistling in the breeze, the people remain largely silent.

Cont….

Why Americans are asleep 2

“Threatened with a Soup Line Existence, the American people would never trade personal freedom for the false promise of federally redistributed free-stuff under some ill-fated socialist experiment, unless they were first threatened with a soup line existence.

And so it shall be…”

”50% of their lifesavings and 30% of their home values have already evaporated into thin air. National unemployment is driving towards double digits as home foreclosures continue to mount. With their backs against the wall, confused by a daily diet of media manipulated headlines aimed at scaring the public into submission, convinced that our nation’s complex woes demand a solution far too complicated for the average peasant to comprehend, the people find themselves in a state of terminal paralysis.

”Incompetent Evil in Charge:
The same people responsible for the many disasters now surrounding every American ho usehold, were elected in 2006 and 2008 to fix what they broke. Instead of reversing course and placing their faith in the principles of freedom, they are installing more of the same failed entitlement policies that created the problem and they are doing so at a fever pace.

”The folks currently in charge of the nation don’t like anything at all about the nation that once was. They have a very different vision for America, one based on redistribution of free-stuff, not equal access to freedom.

”At the foundation of personal freedom is the right to make your own decisions, invest and risk your own capital, own your own property and keep that which you are willing to work and sacrifice to earn. It’s called economic freedom, aka capitalism. But capitalism is public enemy #1 in America today, thanks to decades of class warfare and the art of division via social envy, all for purpose of political gain.



Cont….

Corndog
Your point has appeal only to those who think things through, based on applicable experience. Torture is horrible, though not so grim as killing an enemy. Yet that is what people must sometimes do to stay alive. God grants even a rat the courage to defend its life, when the alternative is to give up and die. The twits who substitute feelings and good intentions for results and facts see the horror of torture sufficient reason to say "Let's ban it". It reminds me of the politician in the 20s who, upon learning that the value of pi was a clumsy and inconvenient irrational number said Let's pass a law making it 22/7. The same sort of evaluation applies to abortion. Its a grim horror, but once in a while the situation justifies a decision, rather than an automatic no tolerance ban.

Why Americans are asleep 3

”Life, Liberty and the right to individually define and pursue Happiness has been replaced with the right of some to take from others against their will, in the name of a greater common good, better defined as the entitlement mentality.

”The Change Agents New World Dictionary:

Old concepts have been redefined. Capitalism is now referred to as Fascism. Personal ambition is now called greed. Those who seek access to other people’s rightful earnings are called charitable, and those who demand a right to only that, which they earn, are called greedy.

”It isn’t just the words that have new definitions. The concepts have new meaning as result. Words like socialism and communism no longer have a negative connotation attached to them. Most Americans have no idea what they are anymore, or why they don’t want to find out the hard way.

”The concept of liberal interpretations limits the meaning of words only to one’s individual imagination. The Constitution means only what someone imagines it to mean. If the shoe doesn’t quite fit, a new definition will solve the problem.

”What are Americans Waiting For?

”I don’t know what it will take to wake up the average American, but whatever it is, it hasn’t happened yet…

”The people currently stocking up on food, water, guns and ammo in record numbers, causing shortages in all the above at the retail level, are clearly awake and anticipating something, but what? Meet the “extremists…”

”The people still trying to get a court somewhere in America to hear the arguments concerning the most secretive corrupt president in US history, have been awake for a long time. Meet the “birthers…” But they continue to have trouble waking anyone else up, including in the so-called halls of justice.

Cont….

Why Americans are asleep 4

”Is it a bankrupt dollar and a new international currency that will get their attention?– A North American Union? - An ACORN army on their doorstep?

"What will be the final straw that breaks the proverbial camel’s back?I don’t have the answer… Frankly, I expected the people to revolt long before now. Clearly, I had underestimated the depth of apath y and tolerance for anti-American nonsense in the average modern American. But then, so did our nation’s founders, whom I’m certain are rolling over in their graves in disgust by now.


”The Silent Consent Continues:
Nobody knows for how long or at what expense, but so far, the people remain silent and Washington continues to profitably interpret that silence as broad-based consent. At this late date, I have no idea what will wake up the average American or how they might react once finally awake and ready to engage in self-governance. However, I am sure about two things…

"When they finally do awake, they are going to be really angry… And, the anti-American left won’t let up until then…

Cont….

Why Americans are asleep 5

”The clock isn’t just ticking. Time has already run out as of the 2008 election. Washington DC is currently dismantling America, individual right by individual right, in an unprecedented massive multi-faceted assault on all things American. If you are not familiar with the Democratic Socialists of America or their legislative branch, the Congressional Progressive Caucus, I strongly suggest that you take time to learn them well. They are in charge of your nation. This is who the average American is up against and they are a very well funded and organized enemy of the state.


You will not be able to take your country back without putting these two organizations out of business. The longer you wait, the tougher the battle, the higher the price.


“Clearly, the organizational skills of the average American are equal only to that of the stumbling bumbling Republican Party. Fragmented, distracted, and disorganized, the people are no match for the leftist juggernaut running roughshod in DC. The people are lost, so they are losing… The most complex problems require the simplest of solutions. But the average American is so baffled by a daily diet of elitist B.S., that they cannot even see daylight – When all else fails, return to the basics!


”HERE’S TO THE AVERAGE AMERICAN WAKING UP IN TIME! - GOOD LUCK!"

If
torture is now a republican value, how does it square with the fact that Ronald Reagan hated torture and during his administration the US signed and ratified a promise not to ever torture. Here is a map of those who did sign and those who didn't.

Republicans want to put us in bed with

Sudan, (Saddam's ) Iraq, Iran, Vietnam and North Korea. We will become the only nation in the Western Hemisphere to be a torture nation, Except Cuba.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CAT-members.PNG

Wrong
Why do these TH authors keep repeating the lie that torturing KSM revealed and stopped the plot to destroy the Library Tower in LA? The US learned about that plot in August 2002, and it had already been stopped; KSM was captured in March, 2003.

My experience on Townhall.com is that its readers are very addicted to learning the truth, not falsehoods, so I assume the author will issue a retraction LOLOLOLOL.

USA behind red flag
How much more does anyone need to realize Obama's muslim connection/involvement/in bed with?
This is like waving the proverbial red flag in front of a crazed bull.

I'd BET THE FARM, that if any of these

leftist weenies, Looney, Jeffie, daft, etc., had a family member whose life depended on getting intel from any of the detainees, they'd be crying and whining like babies ....

"Do WHAT-EVER you have to do... Whaaa, whaaa, whaaa. WATER BOARD if you have to... Whaaa, whaaa, whaaa. Don't let them BEHEAD my family member... Whaaa, whaaa, whaaa."







Jeffrey
So, I see you're back on what you yourself called yesterday "this horrible, hateful website".

If this website is truly as you've described it - and yet you still choose to come here - then I figure that you either have no self-respect (although being a liberal, I guess that's implicit) or else you're being paid by Soros or Arianna Huffington or someone else to post here.

Which is it?

Anne
Still seems to be hit-and-miss for me at this time regarding getting this site to take my posts.

FBI says torture never accomplished
Anything.

George W. Bush’s own FBI director said in an interview last year that he wasn’t aware of a single planned terror attack on America that had been foiled by information obtained through torture.

Robert Mueller, who was appointed by Bush in 2001 and remains FBI director under Obama, delivered that assessment at the end of this December 2008 article in Vanity Fair on torture:
Miller was asked: So far as he is aware, have any attacks on America been disrupted thanks to intelligence obtained through what the administration still calls “enhanced techniques”?

“I’m really reluctant to answer that,” Mueller says. He pauses, looks at an aide, and then says quietly, declining to elaborate: “I don’t believe that has been the case.”

That stands in direct contrast to Dick Cheney’s recent claim that torture h

Fred
Nobody actually beleives Cheney anyway - that ship sailed years ago.

As for Hannity offering to be waterboarded in public, what I want to see is Hannity enduring what actually happened - gettomg waterboarded every three hours for forty days.

Memos Support Prosecuting ALL
Not just the selective prosecutions we have had.

====

FIRST, the straight-line-memos show how the "few bad apples" in our military followed these as approved and with knowledge of those like Rumsfeld and Cheney.
Some of those "bad apples" (soldiers who did not design these torture techniques and only followed orders) WENT TO JAIL.
WHERE WERE THESE MEMOS AND COWARDLY REPUBLICANS TO AID THOSE MILITARY PERSONNEL?


SECOND, since we do have a long history of prosecuting this CRIME, and already convicted "a few bad apples" for their involvement, it's time to prosecute THOSE WHO AUTHORIZED THIS TORTURE.

====

Anne-SHGround-Nee-Others
I guess these Libtard Girlymen (LoonDrools, Daft, Jeffwey, etc) want to wear Lace and Ruffles and have milk and cookies with terrorists. What a bunch of squeamish cowards. In a fight to the death, THERE ARE NO RULES!

A few thoughts...
I have lost count of the number of times I have seen this "what if your family was in imminent danger" argument. It's is impossible to answer fully, and I hope that neither I or anyone else here ever has to confront that situation. But here's my take on it - not on my behalf. I'll say this to my wife - if I am being held against my will and in danger of losing my life, I don't want anyone tortured on my behalf. No thank you. I would hope that my wife would feel the same way, and as for my son, well, he is too young to make that decision so I would make it on his behalf. And it would be the same. So there you go. There's your answer, at least from me. The reason? Easy. I'm better than them.

A hypothetical scenario
You are a soldier gathering intelligence. You know that your enemy is planning a bombing raid on a military target, but that target is in a largely residential area and your enemy has scant regard for civilian casualties. You can say with near certainty that civilian lives will be lost. You don't know when that raid will take place, but as it happens, you have a prisoner from the group who is your enemy. He may have information. Crucial information. Do you torture that prisoner in order to extract information that may save civilian lives?

If the answer is "yes", then you have just given the green light for an American serviceman to be tortured. Because the "you" in this case is an Iraqi intelligence officer. And the "prisoner" is an American air force pilot.

No wonder the military opposes torture.

Georgetwin
Yeah, you keep writin for the right about how real men love torture.

Another hypothetical
I tried writing this before but it didn't register... apols if it comes up twice.

But here's another hypothetical.

You know that a terrorist is planning a massive attack on a civilian target, but you don't know where, when or his whereabouts. But you do have some of his accomplices in custody, none of whom have stood trial and none of whom are talking. Do you torture them in order to extract information that may prevent the terrorist attack and save the lives of hundreds of innocent Americans?

If the answer is yes, then you have just given the green light for the torture of American citizens yet to be given a fair trial. Because the terrorist I am thinking of is Tim McVeigh. Why not? That's the logic behind the arguments in favour of torture. Why stop there? How many lives have to be at risk? How do you know who knows what? Hell, why not torture people accused of any crime if it prevents further loss of life?

Torture makes no sense under any circumstances. Even the Luftwaffe scorned it.

Andrew
Our military men and women in the Navy go through torture. So do many kids going through hazing.

I don't like torture, but should we call water-boarding torture since Americans go through it? Saving innocent American lives by wetting someones head seems a viable thing.

Eric
I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read that you compare the sustained torture routinely handed out to American prisoners during the last few years with hazing. What, at a college frat house? You are kidding me, right? This is the same water torture that we punsihed Japanese POW camp guards for after WWII. Are you suggesting that we retrospectively acquit them? Waterboarding is torture, regardless of who trains themselves to face it. We live in a country governed by the rule of law - one that prohibits torture. Making excuses for it doesn't make it something else. As an aside, are you a Christian? I see Limbaugh claims to be, judging by the title of his last column. I'm not. But I do know that there are very, very few things you can say about Jesus with any degree of certainty. One of them is that he would not torture anyone. Period. What I would pay to be a fly on the Pearly Gates when all of these torture defending "Christians" like Limbaugh try to get past St Peter.

QuietAmerican
You keep hiding under your bed like a Liberal Coward.

Anne and manly man Georgetwin
I've referenced a medievil torture museum several times that I saw a few years ago in Italy. Not only was the reality of torture a difficult reality bite, but what was amazing was the ingenuity it took to invent such instruments and the clear sexual overtones this practice had.

These sexual overtones are certainly clear in Georgetwin's and Anne's insistence that people who don't like torture are "weak", (impotent?) so I thought I would give you both a treat and I found the actual exhibit on the internet. I'm sure it will improve your fantasy lives for years to come.

Anne, Georgetwin, I only wish the two of you could look at it together, and perhaps share a post-experience cigarette together afterwards.

Enjoy yourselves http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/misc/torture/index.html

Quiet American
Since you say now you wish you had never seen this site, I trust that you, unlike so many like you who come here and denounce this site and conservatives who post here as evil yet STILL keep coming back, will exercise the courage of your professed convictions and leave this site for good and NEVER COME BACK!

And if you think you'll be missed: well, if that's what it takes to get you through the night, leave us believing that, and I won't bother telling you the hard truth.

Mob rule
Obama is quite comfortable to rule by polular opinion.
It feels good to "be against torture".
No matter the degree or safety it affords those who would be destroyed.
It feels good to "be green".
No matter that science has NOT come to a concensus on global warming.
It feels good to say "I am pro-choice".
No matter how its obvious genocide of innocent children and the destruction of the souls of the men & women involved.
It feels good to say "he inherited this mess therefore he has to spend us into prosperity".
Even though we are passing on an inheritence of debt that will never be paid.
It feels good to say " I choose my morals".
Even though history proves beyond doubt man is his own worst enemy. Ignorance of a higher power is the ultimate hubris.
This nation is acting its age. The greatest gift EVER given to a people being dangled like a toy by the parents. The children appear ready to destroy the other while the parents wait to see what remains to be picked from the pile of what remains.

Bill
"It feels good to "be against torture".
No matter the degree or safety it affords those who would be destroyed."

There is no evidence, according to the FBI, that America's destruction was ever prevented by torture.

It feels good to think that the reality is just another Mel Gibson movie, with evil dark people in a war of good vs. evil with innocent patriotic, pure, white Americans who are the only people loved by God.


The fundamental flaw in this argument...
is that there are reasonable people on the liberal side of the debate, unless your definition of reason includes their having the cunning to do whatever is necessary to advance their agenda and maintain their grip on power.

Quiet American
All right, I'll apologize to you for my boneheadedness in not understanding that the site you were referring to that I alluded to in my prior post as not being TownHall but another site.

I stand by my sentiment, however, on whether you'd be missed if you permanently departed this site. Because it seems quite obvious that, like so many of your ilk, you have little more than contempt for the conservatives who post here on TownHall. Which makes me wonder why you DO come this site if that's what you think of us.

Unless, of course, you're going to tell us that, like those who claim with a straight face that they buy publications like Playboy or Penthouse for the ARTICLES, you come here wanting to read the posts of the lib trolls this site attracts like honey attracts flies - and if that's the case, you need SERIOUS help.

Not that I expect you'll understand this, but for your information, we ALL know the kinds of torture methods and devices that have been used in ages past and in other parts of the world right to the present - and if what was done to terrorism suspects caught during the Bush Administration was the WORST that people in other countries or in ages past were subjected to instead of what they ACTUALLY were, the Inquisition would barely rate a mention in history books today, and Saddam Hussein might not have earned the moniker The Butcher of Baghdad.

QuietAmerican
If you want to see things you do not want to see (as opposed to burying your head in the sand and pretending they do not exist), get online and find the videos from Saddam's Iraq of people being thrown from roofs or having their tongues or arms cut off. Find the videos of women being stoned to death for the crime of talking to a man not their husband. Or just close your eyes, put your fingers in your ears, and chant na-na-na-na-na-na-na endlessly until they come for you.

Anne-SHGround
Looks like we ticked off another Troll. How many hundred is that now ;)? They can like it or not, but the FACT remains that in a fight to the death, THERE ARE NO RULES! It has NOTHING to do with SADISM, but EVERYTHING to do with WINNING such a fight. This is borne out time and time again by military commanders in history. From Joshua and David in the bible to US Grant and Harry Truman in the WH. BTW which would you is harder on the human body, a Nuclear Bomb or a Tub of Water?

Waterboarding
Saves innocent lives at the expense of putting evil people in temporary pain. Ergo waterboarding is a moral good.

How can anyone object?

God Help Us All indeed...
I've never been more convinced that liberalism is a mental disease suffered by those who cannot cope with reality. I don't believe liberals are evil, it's just that they have created their own parallel world in which to live, and their world is oblivious to anything which contradicts their beliefs. It's the same with the mentally ill. We try to reason with liberals, who are actually our own version of the Taliban, in vain. They are, like the Taliban, intolerant of any viewpoint other than their own, and they become violent when you have the audacity to stand up to them. A visit to any of our facilities that house the insane will show you how that works. Indeed, God Help Us All.


Georgetwin
And because these libs refuse to accept reality about the dangers we face in the world and the need for hard-headedness in confronting them, it means that some of these liberals are going to wind up being buried by OTHER liberals after a mass-casualty terrorist attack that the Obama Administration's soft anti-terror policies will open the door to on American soil.

Living as I do in the Kansas City area, I'm not losing any sleep at night over the prospect of MY part of the world being near the top of terrorist hit lists. No, I figure that it will be those who live in heavily blue areas of our country, like those in our heavily blue major metropolitan areas like New York City or L.A. or Boston or Washington D.C. (gee, I sure hope YOU don't live TOO close to DC, because it doesn't sound to me like it's a healthy place to be in or close to these days with a Mary Poppins administration now in charge there) who figure to be the overwhelming share of the maimed and dead in such an attack - meaning that it will much more likely that the casualties will be those who voted FOR Obama last year rather than AGAINST him.

And when their survivors are laying what's left of their liberal loved ones in the ground, wonder if the fact that Obama spared their killers or killers' comrades from tough interrogation techniques like waterboarding or other methods that would have left those killers or their comrades still very much alive and vibrant - unlike their dead loved ones will be in that day - will be a source of real comfort for those left to mourn their dead.

The problem with today's liberals...
is they believe in "collective" rights, not "individual" rights. They view the first ten amendments (our Bill of Rights) as invalid because they do not address the collective society. To liberals, individual rights, freedoms, and liberties are anethema to world peace. After all, if you have to bother addressing each individual's rights you will never be able to please the whole. Once you understand that it is our "individual" rights they are after, you will understand how they think. These are devious, evil, non-resting people who will stop at nothing to achieve their goal. It's always been, "Any means justifies the ends." And they will achieve their goals by any means necessary. We must be just as active in our beliefs if we are to overcome this "soft" revolution they have overwhelmed us in.

StandsHisGround
I'm an hour north of DC, so we should be OK. But it is like watching a wreck that you KNOW is going to happen and you are POWERLESS to stop it :).

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002

"In Meetings, Spy Panels' Chiefs Did Not Protest, Officials Say"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/1 2/08/AR2007120801664_pf.html

By Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, December 9, 2007; A01

"In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

"Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

"'The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough,' said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

"In September 2006, the CIA for the first time briefed all members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, producing some heated exchanges with CIA officials, including Director Michael V. Hayden. The CIA director said during a television interview two months ago that he had informed congressional overseers of 'all aspects of the detention and interrogation program.'"

PELOSI IS A LIAR!!!

Quiet American
My family is made up from whites,blacks & hispanics. It is truly the all American family. And yes, Its my belief God loves us all.
We are far from pure. But we do aim to live our lives in Gods perfect image. But lets not get all caught up in that repenting/forgiveness stuff..That will obviously confuse you more.

"It feels good to think that the reality is just another Mel Gibson movie, with evil dark people in a war of good vs. evil with innocent patriotic, pure, white Americans who are the only people loved by God."


You cant play the race card with me. I hold a royal flush. You merely hold a bleating heart.

And God help us all..Especially misguided folks like Quite American...



Anne-SHGround-Gunny-ACrawfish Spew Alert
You might recall that John Hinckley was a seriously deranged young man who shot President Reagan in the early 1980s. Hinckley was absolutely obsessed with movie star Jodie Foster, extremely jealous, and in his twisted mind, loved Jodie Foster to the point that to make himself well known to her, he attempted to assassinate President Reagan.

There is speculation Hinckley may soon be released as having been rehabilitated.

Consequently, you may appreciate the following letter from John McCain that the staff at the mental facility, treating Hinckley , reports to have intercepted:

To: John Hinckley From: John McCain

My wife and I wanted to drop you a short note to tell you how pleased we are with the great strides you are making in your recovery. In our fine country's spirit of understanding and forgiveness, we want you to know there is a non partisan consensus of compassion and forgiveness throughout.

My wife Cindy and I want you to know that no grudge is borne against you for shooting President Reagan. We, above all, are aware of how the mental stress and pain could have driven you to such an act of desperation. We are confident that you will soon make a complete recovery and return to your family to join the world again as a healthy and productive young man.

Best Wishes,
John and Cindy McCain

PS: While you have been incarcerated, Barack Obama has been banging Jodie Foster like a screen door in a tornado. You might want to look into that

Anne
Sounds like Pelosi has taken a page right out of John Kerry's book.

Remember a few years ago when Kerry (or was it Hillary Clinton, I can't exactly remember which now, not that it matters I guess, they're BOTH pathological liars anyway, like the Bard of Scranton) claimed that, regarding the Congressional resolution he voted "yes" on that authorized George Bush to take military against Saddam Hussein, he thought he was voting "yes" on having George Bush order more U.N. inspections and NOT on allowing George Bush to actually UNDERTAKE military action.

So, are the Democrats now employing a whole army of Winston Smiths to expurgate Pelosi's record regarding her exposure to coercive interrogation methods so that she can now claim to the American people that she knew nothing about them - and there won't be a paper trail to say otherwise?

But why should we be surprised that Nancy Pelosi is an unashamed liar? After all, she represents a district - San Francisco - with a heavy preponderance of voters who daily LIVE a lie: the lie of the benefits of the homosexual lifestyle.

Georgetwin
Got a good laugh over that John Hinckley letter!

Stands: This is more than enough to make

your head explode!!!

It's like those high speed car chases... everyone known how they're going to end!

Now, exactly HOW out of touch does anyone have to be to NOT KNOW that whatever you've said, and whatever you'd done, there is not only a record, but a public record... especially if you're a politician!

This women, Pelosi, has ... IMO ... is losing her mind...

And I'm not being sarcastic.. I really mean it!!!

Bush broke the law
Bush broke both American and international laws when he made torture an acceptable means of extracting information. All of you gun nuts regularly quote the 2nd Amendment... how many of you can quote the 8th Amendment? From a standpoint of national security: there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on the memos that has not been common knowledge for some time, both domestically and abroad. In fact, the same people who are outraged that Obama admitted that the US used to torture are the same people who have previously argued that Bush had the right to torture. You cannot deny something and defend it at the same time. The authors of the Constitution all lived through times when America's very existence was threatened, how can you argue times are more dangerous today?

Don't anyone drop their guard
I, too, hope that when the terrorists strike us again, they will take out liberals, rather than conservatives, but how smart would that be on their part? If you were going to have to take on a crowd, would you start with the wuss or the person most likely to support you, or would you start with the person most likely to hit you back the hardest? I’m guessing the latter. You learned that in Playground/Sandbox 101, which the elitists on the left missed in private school.

There is information circulating on the internet to the effect that the plan is to launch coordinated strikes all across the country, north, south, east and west, to cause as much panic and confusion as possible. At least part of the point is to show middle America that they are just as vulnerable as anyone.

We can hope it will not happen anywhere, but are you willing to bet your life on it? Stay vigilant, and keep your powder dry.

Jeramy, we hear you...
Now go stick your head back in the ground and pretend it won't happen to you.

Ranger29
Whether or not the F22 has a mission right now may be debatable, but a war with China or Russia would not be anything like Afghanistan or Iraq. Do you really believe they are standing down? We cannot deter them with sticks and stones. Pull your head out.

OlGrumpy
If you were to conduct a study of how many Americans are killed because of our close adherence to the second amendment compared to how many Americans are killed because of our close adherence to the eighth amendment, I am certain we would find that the NRA are the ones with their heads in the ground.

WE DON"T TORTURE, so says our constitution. If you don't think we should follow the constitution, you are entitled to start a revolution, but do not argue that torturing is anything but an offense to the values this country was founded on.

OlGrumpy
"If you were going to have to take on a crowd, would you start with the wuss..."

Frankly, I would think the wuss is the one who thinks we should hit people when they are tied up. A real man (or woman) would consider such behavior befitting of a coward.

IQ29 is a LIAR! F Minus for IQ29
.

jeramy

Ignorant people like you who govern your actions purely on emotions rather than investigating the facts and applying logic are responsible for much pain and death in America.

Have you ever attempted to learn how much violent crime escalates when honest citizens are disarmed and made helpless victims by anti-gun laws?
Hundreds of thousands of violent crimes are prevented every year with civilian firearms.
When civilian arms are taken away, hundreds of thousands more violent crims are committed.

This proves how people like YOU are responsible for nearly 1/3rd of the murders in America.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets?read.aspx?id=206&is sue=007

I know these are just numbers to you.
To the wives, children, mothers and widows the extra crime YOU cause is not just numbers on a piece of paper!

http://willtoexist.com/crime-statistics-and-gun-control-rel ationship_1206/

Ignorant meddlers like you should be punished for the harm you do other people.

Only criminals and cowards fear guns in the hands of honest men.

Wobbie the Fantasy Wabbit

Every time America has reduced our military might in the past and allowed our weapons to become obsolete, we have been attacked by an aggressor Nation.
Americans entered WW1 with few troops, armed with antique French and English weapons.
They fought and died bravely to buy time for American factories to develop and manufacture modern weapons.
Recruits were trained with wooden toy guns, trucks with signs on them, "TANK", stovepipe & orange crates for field pieces.
With properly trained troops armed with modern weapons our army was quickly victorious.

WW2 found us in the same condition again. Too few men fighting holding actions with antique weapons.
Again, they fought and died bravely to buy time for our factories to equip and produce modern weapons and men to be trained to use them.
Again as in WW1, the war turned in America's favor as soon as we had properly armed & trained troops.

Weapons of war are more deadly today and war moves much faster.
How many of America's sons, brothers, fathers & uncles can we afford to spend to buy time?
Should we repeat the same mistakes that caused us to be forced into past wars?
Or would it be wiser to remain strong to discourage attack?

Sorry Bubba but you dead wrong
The military agency that provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects referred to the application of extreme duress as "torture" in a July 2002 document sent to the Pentagon's chief lawyer and warned that it would produce "unreliable information." Washington Post Read and weep Bubba and Jeb. Torture does not work. Hey, you still get your jollies watching "24" on Fox Network!!!

Al

A gentleman of your sterling character would not lie to us, would you?
I know you can provide links to support your statements.

Please do!

Our enemies have a manual on how to torture, see;
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072tort ure1.html

Arabs have two definitions of torture.
When Arabs are torturing Americans they amputate fingers, toes & limbs, then decapitate them.

But when Arabs are captured they consider this torture!
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=160 12

"24"?
What would a pervert like you know about Conservative entertainment?

Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime?


JUST THE FACTS

WP...After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/1 1/02/AR2007110201170.html


I can say one thing for sure
Since we now know that our "Commander in Chief" WILL NOT stand behind us in our efforts to defend this country from attack, from the lowliest employee at the DoD, to the CIA "Spooks" in the field putting their lives on the line to gather crucial intel that let's us know what our enemies are up to, it is highly unlikely that too many people will be willing to risk it all anymore for an administration that has proven itself to value being liked by our enemies far more than it cares about protecting it's most valuable assets.

I completely believe that if asked by his tin horn dictator friends and/or the ACLU to publish the name, home address and current location, along with a recent picture of EVERY undercover intelligence agent we currently have in the field, Obama would do it without so much as a second thought.

It's time for the FBI to arrest Obama for treason.

God help u.s.
I can't get past the fact that we had to water torture men in order to find out what bad moves their gang was going to use against U.S.

How in the world are we more concerned with how we uncovered life saving information [possibly thousands of innocent people's lives] than with the fact that there are evil men--gangs of them [with maybe a few women thrown in the mix--who hate Americans so much they want to blow us all up.

It's like arguing about whose going to pay for dinner when nobody at the table has any money.

This whole thing is appalling and I can't help but think this guy [our President] can't possibly be so dumb that he would single handedly, with his cronies, hand over our nation to a pack of wolves.



Is President Reagan wrong about torture?

Reagan On Torture Prosecutions

From his signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:

“The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called ‘universal jurisdiction.’ Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.”

My italics. Reagan was admant about prosecuting torture, but also prosecuting inhuman treatment that some might claim was not full-on torture. Now go read National Review or The Weekly Standard. And look what has happened to conservatism in America.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/0 4/reagan-on-torture-prosecutions.html


Trolls can stop whimpering now.

Obama says no more frightening Terrorists to extract information.
Under present circumstances I can't see any reason to take live prisoners now.

Trolls should be elated to know this means more Americans will be killed.
Most highly populated areas are Blue.
According to this al-Qaeda planing memo, soft targets of unarmed civilians are preferred objectives.

http://cicentre.com/articles/qaeda_planning_memo.html

Do Trolls want to endanger voters in Blue areas?

Extreme Duress Could Yield Unreliable In


In 2002, Military Agency Warned Against 'Torture'


Extreme Duress Could Yield Unreliable Information, It Said


The military agency that provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects referred to the application of extreme duress as "torture" in a July 2002 document sent to the Pentagon's chief lawyer and warned that it would produce "unreliable information."

"The unintended consequence of a U.S. policy that provides for the torture of prisoners is that it could be used by our adversaries as justification for the torture of captured U.S. personnel," says the document, an unsigned two-page attachment to a memo by the military's Joint Personnel Recovery Agency. Parts of the attachment, obtained in full by The Washington Post, were quoted in a Senate report on harsh interrogation released this week.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/0 4/24/AR2009042403171.html?hpid=topnews

John Konop

Do you think you need to run from thread to thread posting the same cut&paste?

Do you think your posts are such earth shaking news that everyone wants to read them on every thread?

PLEASE BE ADVISED;
Obama has said NO MORE Waterboarding!
You are posting OLD NEWS of questionable value.

Maybe Obama will let our military use the same torture methods Israelis use?

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=160 12

Newt on Torture!

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: OCTOBER 30, 1997
SPEAKER'S STATEMENT ON VISIT OF PRESIDENT JIANG

...there is no place for abuse in what must be considered the family of man. There is no place for torture and arbitrary detention. There is no place for forced confessions. There is no place for intolerance of dissent." "While we walked through the Rotunda. I explained to President Jiang how the roots of American rule of law go back more than 700 years, to the signing of the Magna Carta.

The foundation of American values, therefore, is not a passing priority or a temporary trend....

Hey USMC Lt.
“It's time for the FBI to arrest Obama for treason.”

You must have been really pissed off when Dick Cheney had Valerie Plame, an undercover CIA operative, exposed. I’ll bet as a military man you were ready to take Dick Cheney by the nuts and toss him in the Potomac River. I mean, isn’t it treason, endangering your country’s covert intelligence force?

Thanks for the reminder,
Opie.

"In Israel in the late 1980s, the security services declared that mild forms of torture, what they called "moderate physical pressure," were permitted when it was believed that a detainee had knowledge of an imminent terrorist attack. This was known as the "ticking bomb scenario." But this changed with a landmark ruling by Israel's High Court of Justice in 1999. The court declared that torture techniques were illegal, even under extreme circumstances.”

C'mon Jeramy...
If we were to compare the number of people killed by drunk drivers to the number killed by law abiding citizens with guns, we'd all be walking, so what's your point?

Interesting, also, that you think a wuss would hit someone while they are tied up. I guess, however, it is okay to tie someone up, surround them with men armed with automatic weapons, and then saw off their head with a rusty butter knife. What planet are you from? Lovetron? Those are the people you propose negotiating with over tea and crumpets.

You also totally missed my point, which was that the terrorists are wasting their time and resources hitting you pacifists, because you wouldn't respond with anything but words anyway. They need to hit the group most likely to hit them back, which ain't you and your kind.

Ranger29 @ 5:36
I guess you would build now to fight the Somali pirates and then hope later to catch up with China and Russia, two of the bigger bullies on the block, when push came to shove? That about sum it up? So all we need right now are a few SEALs in rubber boats? By the way, have you ever watched the Military Channel series about the SEAL training? You might learn something about what the young men who volunteer to protect this country, including your sorry self, go through to get trained to execute their mission. Pretty much every one of them gets drowned. Or do you only get the Cartoon Network and the Game Show channel?

Jeffery the LIAR

Cheney did NOT out Plame and you know it.
You are posting a DELIBERATE LIE.

A famous quote of Vladimir Lenin;
"There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience.
A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel."

You need a lot more practice.
You are even a failure as a liar.

As to information obtained by torture sometimes being unreliable?
That is why it is usually corroborated from an independent source.

No one ever accused you Trolls of being intelligent.

Well Jeffrey
I'd answer your lie about Veep Cheney "outing" Valerie Plame, but I see that MyOpine already did.
It was JOE WILSON(Valerie's husband)who was always publicly bragging about what his wife did for a living, and Richard Armitage who "outed" Valerie Plame.
Robert Novak also had a minor role in it, but that was mostly after the fact.

Aside from that, there's very little danger in someone at the CIA who was basically a glorified file clerk and secretary being "Outed."
SHE WAS NOT A COVERT AGENT, so therefore is/was not covered by the laws protecting the identities of covert agents.

And Wobbie, you're not worth the effort it takes to read the first line of your retarded snipe at me.
So bite my Royal Scots-Irish-Italian AZS.

Valerie Plame. Job!


Just The Facts!


CBS confirms 2006 Raw Story scoop: Plame's job was to keep nukes from Iran



.....According to current and former intelligence officials, Plame Wilson, who worked on the clandestine side of the CIA in the Directorate of Operations as a non-official cover (NOC) officer, was part of an operation tracking distribution and acquisition of weapons of mass destruction technology to and from Iran.....

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/CBS_confirms_2006_Raw_Sto ry_scoop_1020.html

Hey USMC
Per MurrayWaas.crooksandliars.com:

“Vice President Dick Cheney, according to a still-highly confidential FBI report, admitted to federal investigators that he rewrote talking points for the press in July 2003 that made it much more likely that the role of then-covert CIA-officer Valerie Plame in sending her husband on a CIA-sponsored mission to Africa would come to light.

Cheney conceded during his interview with federal investigators that in drawing attention to Plame’s role in arranging her husband’s Africa trip reporters might also unmask her role as CIA officer.

Cheney denied to the investigators, however, that he had done anything on purpose that would lead to the outing of Plame as a covert CIA operative. But the investigators came away from their interview with Cheney believing that he had not given them a plausible explanation as to how he could focus attention on Plame’s role in arranging her husband’s trip without her CIA status also possibly publicly exposed. At the time, Plame was a covert CIA officer involved in preventing Iran from obtaining weapons of mass destruction, and Cheney’s office played a central role in exposing her and nullifying much of her work.

Cheney revised the talking points on July 8, 2003– the very same day that his then-chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, met with New York Times reporter Judith Miller and told Miller that Plame was a CIA officer and that Plame had also played a central role in sending her husband on his CIA sponsored trip to the African nation of Niger.”

RANGER 29
The f22 is like the h bomb.Makes the other guy think before he pulls the trigger. The liberal proffessors you sat under are full of BS too.

No NOC status!!
Her alleged NOC status ended at least FIVE years before her loudmouth husband ran his mouth all over the DC cocktail party circuit and SHE pulled strings to have him sent to Niger.

Then there's the matter of the two very different accounts by her husband. The official one was never fully publicized but enough came out to show that Iraq HAD been interested in acquiring 500 tons of yellowcake uranium.

They also had a huge stock of specialized aluminum cylinders and high speed centrifuges which were suited for little else but the production of plutonium. Plutonium is NOT a common element in nature but has to be refined from uranium which in turn is refined from sources such as pitchblende.

Since Val was not really a covert operative for a length of time there WAS NO CRIME IN OUTING HER WHEN WILL YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK LIBTARD SKULLS?!!!

This was a made up crime and a trumped up charge to throw mud on a then wildly popular administration. In the first YEAR after 9/11, not a single elected official other than Cynthia McKinney or Maxine Waters had the chutzpah to challenge the War on Terror for fear of being unelected AS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

TORTURE
Why don't you libs get off the torture BS.Water boarding is like a sunday school picnic to what the GI's went thru during the 2nd world war.I can assure you libs that if they lose your welfare check;you'd probably call that torture too.

Stan
The problem is, despite how much fun it must be for conservatives to torture people, either terrorists or innocent victims to this awful website, it does NOT get you what you want, and that is actionable intelligence to avoid another attack. That’s the goal. Not revenge.

If you care about America, you want our intelligence-gathering experts to get intelligence. That’s their job. They know what they’re doing. The FBI told the CIA that torture does NOT get you good intelligence. There are better ways. But uninformed people, like you and me, were rooting for revenge, disguised as interrogation. That hurt America. Us. Ourselves.

Stan
I have no problem with water boarding as long as every person involved (from the President who orders it all the way down the chain of command to the interrogator) gets waterboarded every six months. If they are patriotic enough to use waterboarding on suspects knowing that they, themselves, have to withstand this "Sunday school picnic" every six months, I would have no objections. See the thing is that most of these "suspects" hadn't been convicted of a crime prior to their "treatment", and presumably neither have those who ordered (I am going out on a limb for you on this one)... so there is really no legal reason why one should be waterboarded and the other shouldn't.

Parenthetically, I am certain people would pay good money to see Cheney waterboarded... I know that I would.

Dems have already won ....
The dems have already achieved their objective. They are scaring ex and future Republican office holders and appointees. The message is clear -- even if you get legal review, and get the dem leaders to be part of the decision, you are going to 1) sweat it out while waiting to see if you are indicted; 2) spend your life savings defending yourself; 3) even if you "win", no one will remember you as "that torture guy"; 4) if you lose, move over Scooter Libbey.

Moreover, by making the claims ("Repubs OKed TORTURE), repeated endlessly by the sheeplike media, many citizens will believe the big lie.

It is very sad.

JERAMY
If you want to call it torture,go ahead,but you don't torture your own elected officials just to make it fair!The purpose of any torture is to get info from the enemy as to save lives(our own).Those that they water boarded was not just to torture(per say)but to find out the enemies plans
of what they were going to do.As did the Japanese in WW2 to find out if our boys would give valuable info of American war plans.Our military doesn't make it a habit of torture on anybody, neither does the CIA.It just so happens that Obama wanted to blow the whole thing out of proportion!

AL IL
Evil deeds as you call it by torture,was not discovered by George Bush.This has been going on for years.
Here's real torture and no one has the guts to tell it. Woman goes into abortion mill,doc takes forceps and crushes babies head,or a saline solution is injected into the mothers womb and child dies a horrible death,or the baby has its brain sucked out before delivery.What do you call that?

Different Strokes, EH. WHAT??
Why in the name of all that's even SLIGHTLY HOLY would Quiet American, or anyone else go to a "Torture Museum in Italy" or anywhere else?? and then advertise the existence of the Damned thing on The *Net*..I.ve stated on this thread that I and some Air America (NOT AL FRANKEN) went to a public Execution in a Laotian Town Square in the Mid60s..I was drunk when it commenced, but NOT SO MUCH before it finished!!CRUDE?? YES!! But I DID NOT make a movie of it!!And as a former Survival Tng survivor I don't see what all the "Knuckle-Polishing" is all about.. CHEERS

The Memos Release.
All this is, is dispicable retribution of the so-called outing of the covert operations file clerk, Valerie whats-her-face.
First, we tie the hands of our troops with these ridiculous rules of engagement, now the Obama Administration is tying the hands of our Operatives in the field, our "enemy combatants" armed with their liberal lawyers continue to use our laws to undermine our Constitution.
I was amazed to find out that "Terrorist" ooops I mean "enemy combatants" in Gitmo have rights, my foundations have been rocked to it's core I tell you, these cretins, as I understand it, and turncoat Colin Powell pushed and pushed for it, now come under the Geneva Convention umbrella. This is shameful, they behead and tear our bodies limb from limb when they catch us but a doctor gets to be present when we throw some water in their faces every 20 seconds.
I can't make this shiite up.
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