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Friday, December 12, 2008
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
No More Bailouts
by David Limbaugh
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If our government's economic experts really knew what they were doing, they wouldn't be frenetically experimenting with the people's money, treating billions like nickels. They wouldn't be so hellbent on dampening expectations and instilling fear as if oblivious to the real impact of public psychology on the economy.

I'm just not buying their doomsaying anymore. Even if they're right and we do end up in a full-scale financial meltdown, at least it will be finite and America's best days will still be ahead of us. But if we don't stop this panic-driven government intervention madness now, the chances are we'll still face a major meltdown and pass the point of no return into the bottomless pit of socialism.

The auto bailout and future proposed gargantuan government interventions must be rejected.

Government bailout architects ominously warned that unless we adopted their original "$700 billion" bailout proposal to purchase distressed mortgage assets, we'd face catastrophic economic consequences rivaling or exceeding the Great Depression.

Just weeks later, these same architects betrayed their own warnings and said their do-or-die plan would not work after all. Buying the troubled assets wouldn't inject capital into the banks quickly enough, so instead the government would have to distribute the money directly to major financial institutions.

But whatever happened to the government's mollifying assurance that if we pursued the original asset purchase plan, which involved buying the assets at a bargain, taxpayers might even make money on the deal? How about its promise that its involvement would be short-term? Obviously, the government's promises were more short-lived than its intervention.

Predictably, all kinds of supplicants showed up at government's doorstep looking for their own "rescue" funds. And we're just getting warmed up.

While Congress probably never should have authorized the original bailout plan, there is at least a plausible rationale to draw the line in the sand now. As others have noted, most bailouts to date have been to the financial sector. But once we open the door to the automakers, on what non-arbitrary basis do we deny future private industry petitioners, especially when their collective failure could arguably have a major impact on the economy?

Free market capitalism is obviously not perfect, but it's the least imperfect economic system, and its pricing mechanism does an infinitely better job of allocating resources and rationally picking winners and losers than government planners could do, even if they had the foresight of Nostradamus on his best day.

Keynesian interventionist types insist that the intrinsic weaknesses of capitalism require large-scale government interventions from time to time, such as FDR's New Deal. Nonsense. While there are certainly cyclical ups and downs inherent in market economies, there is usually scant justification for such major government adjustments.

Indeed, but for liberally biased historians, we'd understand that FDR's actions exacerbated and prolonged the Great Depression and that Obama's planned New Deal would do likewise. The financial meltdown was not caused primarily by too much capitalism but reckless government policies that interfered with the market's pricing mechanism, such as mandating un-creditworthy real estate loans.

Even if we draw the bailout line now, we must understand that we've still seen an enormous government intervention under a Republican president's watch, which will make future bailout proposals difficult to credibly oppose.

Some contend there is a silver lining in these bailouts, namely that their inevitable failure will teach the lesson that they don't work and cause our rededication to market principles.

But this ignores that a large percentage of the political class has no fealty to market principles. The Harry Reids and Nancy Pelosis of the world are licking their lips in anticipation of the opportunities for government intervention this crisis presents, as Obama's chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, brazenly admitted.

In the typically arrogant spirit of social planners, they are poised to micromanage an industry they know less about than they know about balancing the federal budget. Worse still, they refuse to divorce their self-assigned mission of restoring financial stability to the industry from their policy and political goals of imposing environmental mandates and protecting their union voting constituencies.

It's time to take our medicine, even if that means bankruptcy and the restructuring of an industry whose wages have long defied market standards. Any resulting hardships are sad and troubling, but the alternative is worse.

If we don't stop this runaway freight train now, there might be no extricating ourselves from the government planning model, which would be disastrous for America's unique and world-leading prosperity and liberty.

Conservatives better start screaming bloody murder, or the market enemies soon to dominate two of the three branches of the federal government with a lust for the third could build a socialist momentum that would be difficult to restrain, much less reverse.

Enough is enough.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Yeah Mitch
Questionable home loans to poor people caused the meltdown. That is an absurd contention.

That's like saying that bottle availability caused Barry Bonds and the MLB steroid problems.

History will exonerate Bush
History will tell us what the people we sent to Washington should have known. The two terms Affordable Housing and Community Reinvestment are incongruent.

History will have economists scratching their heads. How, they will ask, do you make anything affordable by driving demand? Of course, history will also tell us that we found a way. Drive the GSE's to proliferate NINJA software to the desktops of mortgage brokers ---no income, no job, Fannie will buy the paper: ARM, balloon note, anything.

History will tell us that the sucking sound on the other side of the equation was the voracious appetite for securities that produce a series of constant payments from a lump sum investment. No doubt, history will tell us that we failed the first pass at dealing with the structural changes associated with baby boomers retiring.

We won't have to wait for history. Just navigate to committee hearings.

Oh, forget it. Let's just wait.

Who first yelled "Wolf!"?
I think it was Paulson and Bush.

History will eventually be able to tell us just who prospered during this time when most of the citizenry has been made to suffer.

Bridge Loan to Nowhere
We know that at least two of the three automakers are running on borrowed time.

We know that it is possible to run a successful auto business in this country.

We know that running a successful auto business can be accomplished using domestic suppliers.

We have a mechanism in this country for handling the situation faced by Detroit. It's called Chapter 11 reorganization. These companies need to either right themselves or go away.

There will still be cars built in this country. There will still be suppliers of components for those cars.

Rightly or wrongly, we have already committed $700B to ease credit. That credit allows companies across the country to operate. It is used to enable companies to expand. It allows governments to fund capital projects. And it is used to fuel the purchase of cars and homes.

The best thing Congress can do to help the automakers is to rationalize environmental and other laws that stand in the way of effective operation of the domestic industry as a whole. I would start with the two fleet CAFE rule and work from there.

Hal Donohue talks nonsense:
I'm not sure what it is you're insinuating; that if a few foolish Republicans embrace socialist actions, that by default Democrats are the true free-marketeers?

You said: "LMAO Last night senate republicans deeply embraced socialism. First, they climbed on the bailout train and the government now essentially "owns" the banking and financial industries."

The financial industry "bailout" is a farce and a huge mistake. But only 10 idiotic Republicans voted for this bailout.

You said: "Now, they demand "wage parity" for all workers in the auto industry or throws the US auto industry in the tank."

By demanding wage parity, they are not setting the wages; they are saying, get in line with the market, like what successful car companies do. U.S. Senators demanding that US auto companies make their wages market competitive is not government planning; it's the government demanding the auto industry swim on its own.

"Yes, I said US, because with a crushed economy, the foreign owned US auto plants go out too."

Nonsense. First, there are no foreign-owned auto manufacturers (who happen to employ equally deserving American workers) at the taxpayer doorstep weeping for money. Why? Because they have successful business models, not corrupt ball-and-chain unions dragging them down. Second, Americans need cars, and long-term maintenance, support, and warranties are big selling points. Big 3 can't even promise they'll be around. Third, so long as Democrats stay out of the auto business and don't punish foreign owned superior products just for being superior with tarrifs and union demands, Toyota, Honda, Kia, Hyundai, etc. aren't going anywhere.

NO TO BAILOUTS, YES TO MARKET RISK
Sen. Jim DeMint from National Review Online:
"GM had its best sales year ever in 2007. It sold over 9 million cars around the world — the same number as Toyota. But Toyota made $20 billion, and GM lost $40 billion.

"Government should not be in the auto industry. We’ve set up laws to deal with companies that are financially strapped, and we’ve got bankruptcy protection under Chapter 11, which would allow them to restructure their debt and their union contracts under the authority of a bankruptcy judge, who could help them make the hard decisions that would create a sustainable business.

"If the companies that own Chrysler and others won’t invest in them, the American taxpayer shouldn’t, either...These companies are businesses. They are not government agencies.

"It is a dangerous and socialist idea that the government can intervene and guarantee outcomes. We can’t guarantee outcomes. And in fact, the reason we are in a financial crisis in our country is because of government involvement."

Primus54 says
"Have you ever really studied the UAW collective bargaining agreement?"
---
Yep. Got one right here.
----"

""Do you know how many "extra" employees are paid to sit on their behinds just "in case" another worker calls in sick? Or takes one of their many, many vacation days?"
-----
NONE. They ask for volunteers to work overtime.
-----

""Do you have any idea how long a "displaced worker" draws full pay for no work if their plant is closed?"
-----
Zero days. That has never been the case.
-----


Oh, and tom
"Anyone who posts on a public internet board and then cries about being asked questions is a ______."

Wow, tom.

It seems to me that anyone wishing to retain anything even resembling respect and/or credibility wouldn't...

(a) begin posting on this public board with nothing but ad hominem attacks

(b) pose a question completely meaningless to the discussion (or Jo's point) that is assumed to yield a specific answer without basis (there are more libs on Wall Street than I ever imagined before joining the industry)

(c) completely misrepresent a passage from Wikipedia (!) as being from a "news tracking organization" (and at that - according to the discussion - added by an obviously liberally biased individual who cannot grasp the same basic point)

(d) completely ignore the relevant research (available even at that same Wikipedia site) regarding liberal bias in the media

(e) assume the (obviously) false pretense that Anne was seeking "help" to respond to them

...and then have the sheer audacity to act as if the responses to them have been insufficiently forthcoming, merely semantics, or insufficiently intelligent (a la Einstein).

No, anyone engaging in such behavior would have to be dismissed as an argumentative, imbecilic, immature attention-seeker without the intellectual capacity to grasp just how moronic his own statements demonstrated him to be.

Don't you think, tom?

As this might be of value to others
"Okay, do give us your 'specific meaning' of 'liberal' and 'conservative' in an ideological or political context as you see it?"

tom, it's a whole spectrum really.

The anarchist (not to be confused with bomb throwers) favors a societal structure with the complete absence of a state (it includes anarcho-capitalists that embrace private property and anarcho-syndicalists who do not).

The classical liberal (libertarian) embraces individual liberty above all and seeks to minimize all intrusion by the state into the free actions of the citizenry so long as those actions harm no third parties.

The conservative generally favors free market and private enterprise solutions to societal problems but embraces a generally greater role for government in preserving societal order and promoting societal values.

The moderen liberal (often just "liberal" though distinct from the classical liberal) embraces governmnetal solutions (often to the point of socialism) to societal problems (welfare, workfare, social insurance, government "stimulus") and as a means to the betterment of the society while deeming many activities that do not harm others as beyond government purview.

The socialist (and, in the most extreme case, the Marxist) believes that the state (or eventually the collective) should collectively own the means of production - either directly or de facto (as the Nazis did) - for the best societal outcome. As a practical matter, this approach has failed so specatcularly that only a fool could embrace it - though certainly many still do.

Hope that helped...

"Ranger Robert" writes:
"I'll be here as long as I want to be."
-----

Oh really?

Then explain why you no longer "show up", M-F, 8-5?

Enjoy the brief time you have left here.

I would encourage you to start looking for another conservative website on which you can play "let's pretend".

"LMAO"

Fearqalx
You just don't seem to understand. Let me try to clear it up.

The Big Three has some serious problems. They produced 17,000,000 vehicles last year. Now they need some help. So why shouldn't we expect their blue collar workers (who produce those vehicles) to take a big pay cut.

Look at the financial industry. They had a tiny little problem. They um...pushed around lots of paper last year. They said GIMME. Bush and Paulson tossed $700 billion at them. They were asked to give an address on Wall Street where our tax dollars should be sent.

The End.

Now, what is not clear about this to you?

Chrysler Bailout
I get this article. Slippery slope, etc. Was the Chrysler bailout a disaster? No -- the taxpayers earned money, Chrysler kept its jobs. Chrysler was very successful for about 20 years after the bailout. Of course, Republicans sound too me like hardcore Marxists. Truth be dared, they will push the free market at all costs. In certain ways we are much less regulated than 50 years ago -- and we grew into a rich prosperous country during an era of huge red tape (the 1950s). Again, those facts do not matter.

It makes sense to me to keep an American auto industry. It is not as if other countries are pushing the "free market." They play by tough rules -- preditory capitalism.

Starting wages for auto wokers are not even that much now -- about $30,000 per year. Our health care costs are what they are (way higher than any other country in the world). We choose to have a policy where employers pay for health care -- that includes for retirees -- so these companies have huge costs due to our governmental policy. The starting wages for Honda or Toyota plants in America are similar to GM. The health care retiree costs are dramatically different.


limbaugh the Lunatic Hater

Ok, let us see, the Republicans bailed out wall street. giving those CRIMINAL bankers 700 Billion dollars, no strings attached.

Now, the American auto industry, which supports more than 3 million Americans, requested 35 billion, not 700 Billion, but these republican NEO-HOOVERITES rejected. They wanted Blood, not the muslim blood this time, because they have already MURDERED 5 million Iraqis, they want American blue collar blood.

These are traitors, blood thirsty criminals. They should have been hanged in public squares in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana.

JIHAD
Michigan

Primus...you have not proved a thing
aobut the lies you have claimed about me..

all you have is your theories...you are like Marine DAd (the fake Marines father) and all the other people (including Anne) who think that they know something and know nothing.

I'll be here as long as I want to be.

I know that annoys you and there is some joy in that!

Robert

BFletch...I dont necessarily
approve of Obama's economcis...and it is well known here that I supported McCain from well back...



Bush has run up all on his own about 6 tillion dollars in debt...who knows what this bailout and all the other goodies that have been spent will cost. Problem is that there is nothing to show for any of it.

During the Depression and WWII the country ran up large debt and some of it was in wealth transfer but most of it was in infrastructure porjects whose fvalue to The Republic was and is quite clear. For instance (a small one) FDR went into debt to build the Yorktown series of flattops long before WWII started...they kept people employeed , shipyards open etc...and they produced ships which literally won WWII (or at least forestalled defeat...read up on Yorktown, Enterprise, Hornet)

All Bush has done with his debt is transfer money from future generations of Americans to folks who have not done a lot with it to value the Republic

If you are really a banker...then you would know this.

Robert

Anne
No need for you to cry for help. I'm assuming that you are an adult. Right?

And there is no "demand" for anything. They are quite simple (and not very difficult) questions.

Anyone who posts on a public internet board and then cries about being asked questions is a ______ . (You fill in the blank Mrs. Einstein)

Primus & F1etch:Who ARE these lib-trolls

who go out of their way to logon to TH, and then have the acorns to "demand" that any Conservative jump to their tune.

Geeze, what a joke! HA HA HA HA HA

F1etch
Okay, do give us your "specific meaning" of "liberal" and "conservative" in an ideological or political context as you see it?


Primus54
You do not answer near as well as you dance and avoid.

tom
First of all - I'm not "playing semantics". There is a big difference between CEOs of firms and Wall St. workers - both in location and ideology.

I have no idea idea of the left/right ratios of the top 10,000 Wall St. WAGE EARNERS and if there are some statistics circulating around, I haven't seen them. I would speculate that whatever it is - it is probably NOT representative of the NATION as a whole. And I SURE don't see the relevance.

I did not attempt to address the quote you provided for the reason cited by "F1etch" at 6:22 PM EST.

He answered it better than I - and on THAT issue, YOU are relying on semantics.

I'm aware that there are stats available showing the voting patterns of the MSM - and they vote predominantly Democrat.

Feel free to Google it yourself.

"Ranger29, aka Robert"

I really need to congratulate on your courage.

After a few years on Townhall - with all of your claims having been exposed to the point of ridiculous overkill - you still come on these threads and "act" the part you've created.

It seems the only one left who is still fooled is Hal.

Anyway - I'm not sure I'd have the courage it takes to continue humiliating myself night after night.

You da' Man!

Primus54
Okay, if you want to play semantics, I'll ask you the same question:

Do you think that the top 10,000 Wall Street WAGE EARNERS are Dem or GOP?

But try answering the damn thing this time!

Also, why did you not even attempt to reply to the quote from that news tracking organization per your blurt about 9 out 10 in the newsroom being libs? Here it is again in case you "missed" it:

"Accusers of liberal or conservative bias typically ignore the dictionary meanings of those words (as do modern political parties). In fact, in the current political discourse, the words seem to have meaning that shifts depending on point of view. The Oxford American Dictionary defines "liberal" in the political sense as "favoring democratic reform and individual liberty" and "conservative" in the political sense as "favoring private enterprise and freedom from government control".


Primus, Lolo, Ret Geek, et al....

You were aware, weren't you, that tonight is the "FULLEST MOON" on the year....

Therefore, doofASS The BABY KILLER, IQ29, and the rest of the intellectually limited 'lunatic' liberals will be at their best.

I bet you wondered if they were actually nuttier than usual... Well, they are, and it's that old 'lunar' thing...

No doubt, tomorrow they'll all be back to being just their usual "clinically mad" and crazy!




Hal, the Illegal Alien Lover

Now that two of our three branches of government are run by the party always trying to create a new dependent class, aka, "reliable Dem voters", I have no doubt another attempt to grant amnesty is forthcoming.

It may even become law.

But is will still be opposed by a majority of the electorate, including some who voted for Obama.

Just one of the many reasons they will grow increasingly disappointed with their Nov 4th choice in due course.

Fletch...regional banks are good
at home between STerling and Chase (OK Chase isnt regional) one can get just about any money one wants. particularly with a G job, great credit and ba business that even today is making money.

My company just brokered its first deal on a 12,500 or above airplane...10 percent of 5 mil...

go figure.

Robert

One last
"This means yes Fletch either teachs or works for the government. Come on do tell LOL"

Actually, at present I'm an assistant controller at a regional bank that concentrates heavily in home equity lending (and has a defualt rate still well below the industry average was two yeras ago).

That doesn't change the fact that anyone with ANY background in economics or even a layman who has sufficient mental capacity to look it up can find and grasp the concept of "comparative advantage". Given that you don't your claims to economic knowledege are simply exposed as the obvious falsehood that they could not otherwise be.

Hal...should have been wilco...
and congrats on the 40th..milestone and shows a lot of commitment.

Slugger and I would have made 22 this year...

But Wonder Woman and I will star the clock all over again. Bush's speech at TAMU was well "less"...

Robert

Thanks guys
Gunny, Georgetwin, ExRCSD Deputy, If Only, Lolo1, Primus. The kind words are always appreciated as are your own efforts at holding the nonsense at bay.

Alas, I must take the long drive home from work so keep up the good fight.

Ranger29
We are at the Marriot Marquis LOL
love points

Hal...wiloc later today
you would love the "one and only"...the suites have a butler...because of "who" I am I we are in one of the smaller things...the cool thing is that one gets Marriot points...and thanks to Uncle sending me places...We can almost do the thing at the Palmilla on points.

Plus a client of mine back home apparantly does some business there...and can get the rooms for 400 a night off season...that puts it well within my points.

email later today

about to go for an early morning swim!

the big "Fred" is here

Robert

Folks
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 6:06 PM EST Subject: ..."Lastly, they are 100% supported by their national governments."

And so long as the Japanese are willing to pay higher taxes so I can get a cheaper car, great, but I'm not stupid enough to want to pay those higher taxes for sch wrong-headed stupidity myself."

This means yes Fletch either teachs or works for the government. Come on do tell LOL

Ranger29
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 6:20 PM EST Subject: Hal...if you really want a special


http://www.oneandonlyresorts.com/flash.html

place to take "Mrs. Hal" to...check out this web site.

We are at the one in Dubai...but there is a likewise place in Cabo ..."The Palmilla" and if the service there is anything like here...hold on to your comfort level...it will just take off.

The future Mrs...and I might head there for the honeymoon.....the twins are spending some time in Nassau right now and they say the Sheraton is quite lovely.

But the service here (and I bet at the Palmilla) is just amazing...

Obama just keeps making good choices..."

He is doing extremely well. I will look at it. We are off to NYC for the weekend now. 40th anniversary etc back Monday

Hope you and yours are all well. Send me another e-mail

Please...
"Just down to denials now LOL"

So your "just down to the same fact-free, mindless, no-credibility-especially-when-claiming-economics-knowledge drivel, now (scratch that - still)" is somehow better?

Actually, there was no need to justify such idiocy with a denial. he notion that rural white people are inherently the base of the Republican Party (or of conservatives in general) is drivel. No doubt Appalachia votes heavily Democratic despite being left in abject poverty by the Welfare state.

And the day I have to worry about YOUR assessmet of my economics background ... well, perhaps when Dr. Ben Carson begins worrying about an assessment of his medical expertise by Pee Wee Herman, I'll spare a moment to think about it.

Primus54
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 6:04 PM EST Hal "LMAO©" Donahue asks:
"Have you looked at the polls on the immigration question lately?"
-----

Nope.... I still believe a majority of Americans have SOME basic common sense - even if liberal trolls do not."

Yes and they showed it strongly on 4 Nov and they are showing me on immigration check

er, tom
"Accusers of liberal or conservative bias typically ignore the dictionary meanings of those words..."

No, tom. It is called context. The meaning of the words liberal and conservative have specific meanings in an ideological or political context that are distinct from those found in the dictionary for use in general speech. Just as "elasticity" has a specific meaning in economics, different from the dictionary meaning, the same applies in this case. Thus, it is the attempt to pretend that the dictionary meaning is waht applies here that is either misinformed or dishonest.

F1etch
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 6:00 PM EST Subject: Still more
"But the largest group receiving government welfare payments is rural white males? I thought that was the conservatives' base."

Just down to denials now LOL

Good News...
... for "right-thinking" Townhall regulars.

I have it on good authority that Townhall will soon be implementing a new system to purge these threads of those on "permanent ban" from sneaking on during off-hours and weekends.

It is in testing phase, but looks like it will be good to go in the not-to-distant future.

In case you are wondering who is on the current "permanent ban" list, they are:

- "Ranger29, aka Robert"
- "Sophie"
- "t r" in all his various disguises


Hallelujah!

There goes the neighborhood...

The fake "navel" aviator has arrived to bestow more of his "wisdom".

And he writes:

"I didnt vote for Obama..."
----

Yeah, right.

And F-15s have only one rudder...

"LMAO©"

Deluded Pop
"It's not the fault of the workers for building the cars that they were told to build by upper management."

Fair enough.

"Foreign auto makers dont have that problem because, for workers in the US, their plants haven't been open long enough to have retirees."

Again, the statement is ridiculous. ension liabilities begin accruing on day one.

"For auto plants abroad, their governments have national healthcare so the auto companies incur no healthcare cost. Not to mention when their auto industries are in trouble, they help them out. That's why Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are successful."

Don't be foolish. Quite the contrary, they are hurting as well. Meanwhile the Japanese economy has been in the toilet for a decade or more and their national debt is larger than their entire economy.

"Lastly, they are 100% supported by their national governments."

And so long as the Japanese are willing to pay higher taxes so I can get a cheaper car, great, but I'm not stupid enough to want to pay those higher taxes for sch wrong-headed stupidity myself.

Hal "LMAO©" Donahue asks:
"Have you looked at the polls on the immigration question lately?"
-----

Nope.

But I have little doubt that a majority of Americans still oppose amnesty - especially now that unemployment is on the rise.

I still believe a majority of Americans have SOME basic common sense - even if liberal trolls do not.

"LMAO©"

Still more
"But the largest group receiving government welfare payments is rural white males? I thought that was the conservatives' base."

So much for truth from a lefty.

"Yet again this was Rove's stated policy not the Democratic Party's. Do really believe what you say?"

Since Jo's statement was correct and yours is not, she's got more credibility.

"see all you are spoutiong back is nonsense. Look at Microsoft, Southwest Air and Costco for just three examples Democrats praise highly. They tend to pay real and livable wages."

Yeah and that anti-trust thing against Microsoft was just a coincidence.

"Whoops here we go again what does it look like when we remove religious giving?"

If there were ANY justfication for doing so...

"In my neighborhood, it's called not forgetting where you came from, not burning bridges. You CAN be rich and be a an advocate for the poor. It's called being a philanthropist."

Funny, since capitalism has been the greatest engine of prospeity (particularly for the poor) and the welfare state has demonstrably INCREASED poverty and hurt the very people it is ostensibly designed to help, the pro-capitalism position IS advocacy for the poor.

The bailout is just the latest
of the Bush legacy...bad planning, incompetent operation leads to a disaster then throw money at it...and lives in some cases...and claim "it was someone elses" fault.

I didnt vote for Obama but the good news is that at least he seems to have a brain and an ability to manage.

Robert

F1etch

FYI - you have doing yeoman's work in deconstructing the talking-point myths these liberal moonbats spew.

Kudos.

Primus54
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 5:41 PM EST Hal "LMAO©" Donahue asks:
"...now you are coming around to governing by polls???"
...And I suppose you favor amnesty for illegals, too - the last time a large majority of Americans (of both parties) were dead set against the plans offered by our government. "

Have you looked at the polls on the immigration question lately?

Sigh
"LOL you spin soooo well LOL."

Well, at least the intellectual level of your responses hasn't chaned.

"We had near unlimited, very cheap fuel."

Completely irrelevant.

"we had lots of government interference from the settling of the west (Ohio Valley) to the transcontinental railroad to robber barons."

The statement is inherently contradictory.

"Let us take into consideration why the gilded era ended. What you call a golden era was in reality an era of hidden costs and destruction."

Do you get some odd pleasure out of spouting Kevin Phillips-style a-historical nonsense?

"Industry didn't pay for damaged air, water, people all costs for which the bill came due in the late 1800s and early 1900s."

Quite the contrary, the notion that the environment was some disaster during this period is pure bovine fecal matter. And the correlation between the embrace of free markets and a cleaner environment is HUGELY positive.

"You know the real story..."

Yes, I do. Clearly, you do not.

"Much the same economic conditions exist in Nigeria and Argentina right now."

Only in the deluded fever dreams of lunatics!

"Why are they not the thriving economies you claim they should be?"

Because there is massive intervention by the state in the form of favoritism and thuggery, little law and no protection of private property rights. The conditions in those countries don't resemble anything that has EVER existed in this country. To argue otherwise is sheer lunacy.

Lolo1 writes:
"Ironically, the self proclaimed working man Pop Yo Colla, has more brains than Hal."
-----

It probably helps that "Pop's" brain isn't pickled by alcohol.

Pop says
“That figure is calculated…”

A valid point.

“Foreign automakers don't have retiree costs like GM because they haven't been here but since the early 80's.”

Complete nonsense. These expenses are accrued for active workers – not merely postponed until retirement occurs.

“Not to mention how much extra money GM would have if we had National Healthcare.”

Another bad idea which is why Japan’s national debt is larger than its entire economy.

“The cost of living…”

…is of little relevance unless, of course, unions do not object to moving plants … which, of course, they do.

“But the fact is you have to have perfect credit today to lease or buy a car.”

The point is invalid. A car buyer faces the same issue regardless of who manufactures the car. It has no bearing on the demand for particular vehicles.

“The 700 billion dollar bailout that Repubs passed…”

Congress is now and was at the time dominated by Democrats.

“…was ment for banks to in turn loan to people…”

Actually, no. It was originally to purchase impaired assets and then used for equity stakes. One of the express purposes of the bailout (a bad idea in any event) was to sure up balance sheets (which you misconstrued as not what was intended) to prevent further collapses. There is actually plenty of credit available for those with solid credit and/or collateral.

“But not one of you are complaining about that.”

You are either lying or haven’t been paying the SLIGHTEST attention.

“Do you think they'd (GM,Chrysler) would be in trouble if people could actually buy their cars without needing all the money up front?”

Obviously.

Hal "LMAO©" Donahue asks:
"...now you are coming around to governing by polls???"
-----

My goodness, Hal.

Can you be any more disingenuous?

And I suppose you favor amnesty for illegals, too - the last time a large majority of Americans (of both parties) were dead set against the plans offered by our government.

Primus54
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 5:25 PM EST Subject: Hal is "sweet" on Rush

He must be. It's is his favorite "go to", i.e., 'limbawlism".

Hey Hal - when you have your own talk show broadcast all over the country drawing 15 to 20 million listeners a week - I'll start believing you have as much credibility as Rush.'

credibility??? he is an entertainer that is what you don't get LOL

"...You libs have been trying unsuccessfully to drive a spear through his heart since 1988 - all to no avail..."

Oh I want him around a long type I mean he condemns "white rich men buying illegal drugs" then gets caught doing the same LOL He praises soldiers then insults them and compares them to suicide bombers and phonies. He is a poster child for your true values. We would have to create him if he didn't exist,. He believes in nothing (he is the largest poller, more than even soap companies) and runs to the front of his crowd. He is sooooo good.

Primus54

"Lolo1
Hahahahaha....

Your 5:29 warranted a spew alert!"


Ooopps! Sorry darling! I will try and do better in the future!

Primus54, RG, and Jo
Gotta go! I have better things to do then listen to insults from Hal who gives new meaning to stupid.

Have a great evening!


Ironically, the self proclaimed working man Pop Yo Colla, has more brains than Hal.

Lolo1
Hahahahaha....

Your 5:29 warranted a spew alert!

Lolo1
Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 5:17 PM EST Hal Donahue
"You believe that? Watch and see what the people say about that vote in 6 months....Every single poll shows that the country is against the bailouts of all stripes."

BIG GRIN now you are coming around to governing by polls??? LOL and how do I tell you this? hee well Bush the torturer, leading national conservative even if disowned, will bail them out in a futile attempt to have one good thing in his legacy

Hal pleads:
"Please do keep believing that please do I would hate to see you change"
-----

"Ditto"

Hal Donahue
"Ahhh I only have three but one is economics and as you folks so often complain I have lots of experience. You folks are simply deadbeats and incompetents. If you do have all those degrees I suggest that you get a refresher or were they mail order?"

Aren't you awfully old to be acting like a two year old? At your age Hal when you drool down your chin like baby and hurl tantrums like a baby, it is time to get yourself into a nursing home, or we can institute National Health Care and deem you not cost efficient and just euthanize you.

On offer, Hal

If you'll send me the name of the university where you got your economics degree, I'll gladly write them a letter to refund your tuition - or threaten them for the fraud they pulled on you.

LMAO

Primus54
Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 5:14 PM EST Subject: Lolo1, Retired Geek:

Have you noticed a common refrain from the moonbats that come here?

"Your day is over conservatives!"

Reminds me of the good old days right after Jimmy Carter was elected..."

Please do keep believing that please do I would hate to see you change

Jo
"This is a simple I have to laugh at the idiocy of it. Two things are killing the big three. First, terrible leadership and second, the failure of the nation to provide national healthcare of some kind."

Well you heard it straight from the horse's a** mouth! He wants to reward failure in leadership and will settle for sloppy seconds in health care.

Hal is "sweet" on Rush

He must be. It's is his favorite "go to", i.e., 'limbawlism".

Hey Hal - when you have your own talk show broadcast all over the country drawing 15 to 20 million listeners a week - I'll start believing you have as much credibility as Rush.

You libs have been trying unsuccessfully to drive a spear through his heart since 1988 - all to no avail.

Now you and your ilk want to silence him through the "Censorship... er, Fairness Doctrine".

If you had an honest, open-minded ounce of a brain-cell, you know you'd be B*TCHING to high heaven if Rush were a liberal and it was conservatives trying to shut him up.

The sheer hypocrisy is astounding - as is your total lack of intellectual honesty.

Lolo1
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 5:12 PM EST Hal Donahue
"There is not one bit of truth in this limbawlism. Maybe you should take some economic and government courses"


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

First off you apparently didn't listen to what the Big 3 said and secondly I have 5 degrees, one of which is economics...where's yours?"

Ahhh I only have three but one is economics and as you folks so often complain I have lots of experience. You folks are simply deadbeats and incompetents. If you do have all those degrees I suggest that you get a refresher or were they mail order?

Jo
"They need to go into bankruptcy so they can shed the union contracts bogging them down. They can emerge reorganized and stronger. This could be a very good thing for them. The unions are killing them, the unions have gone too far when they force business to pay those who aren't working. And/or huge amounts per hour. And/or high priced benefits, and/or pensions."


That is also the reason Blue states and cities are failing at mach 5. Ask Vallejo, Ca.

Jo
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 5:10 PM EST Subject: Popyocolla - CA
The bottom line is....Union like a parasite in this case - is killing the host."

This is a simple I have to laugh at the idiocy of it. Two things are killing the big three. First, terrible leadership and second, the failure of the nation to provide national healthcare of some kind. The unions are just coconspiritors at worse

"...Free markets will fix the problem long term, bailouts won't, they are a band-aid...."

Really? Is the global marketplace a free market do you think?

Primus54

"Lolo1, Retired Geek:

Have you noticed a common refrain from the moonbats that come here?

"Your day is over conservatives!"

Reminds me of the good old days right after Jimmy Carter was elected.

Then came Ronald Reagan.

Oops!"



Yep! Liberals have as yet to figure out two things...for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, hence the reason life goes in cycles and they are circular in nature.

Hal Donahue
"You believe that? Watch and see what the people say about that vote in 6 months. That is way your leader Bush will do it anyway meanwhile the backbench awaits your extremists."


Every single poll shows that the country is against the bailouts of all stripes.

"How many days to January?""

What you are so stupid you can't count or read a calendar now?


Same old tired garbage out of you Hal, just like your 'throw money at the problem' party and hope it shuts up and goes away.

Lolo1, Retired Geek:

Have you noticed a common refrain from the moonbats that come here?

"Your day is over conservatives!"

Reminds me of the good old days right after Jimmy Carter was elected.

Then came Ronald Reagan.

Oops!

PopYoColla
"It's this ironic. A liberal who believes in Christ. Good nite, TH. Stay hateful as usual."

And what did Jesus say about taking the plank out thine own eye?

Lolo1
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 4:56 PM EST PopYoColla
...No idiot. I am blinded by my loyalty to America and would rather not see her make the same stupid mistakes as the rest of the world. "

What rubbish you don't want your taxes go up no matter what it does to the country

"...Oh and those back benchers just blocked your bail out and the country is overwhelmingly with them...."

You believe that? Watch and see what the people say about that vote in 6 months. That is way your leader Bush will do it anyway meanwhile the backbench awaits your extremists. How many days to January?

Hal Donahue
"There is not one bit of truth in this limbawlism. Maybe you should take some economic and government courses"


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

First off you apparently didn't listen to what the Big 3 said and secondly I have 5 degrees, one of which is economics...where's yours?

Once again you are wasting my time with your stupidity.

BYE!!!

Popyocolla - CA
The bottom line is....
you Republicans clutch to your Patriotism like a badge of honor every four years during election time. But now it's every man for himself. Did the Big Three turn it's back on the USA during WWII? No. They stopped making Chevys and Buicks and started making tanks. They've been a part of this country since 1903. Popyoucolla

===================

It is Patriotic to allow FREEDOM and LIBERTY in our capitalistic society to work don't you think?

They need to go into bankruptcy so they can shed the union contracts bogging them down. They can emerge reorganized and stronger. This could be a very good thing for them. The unions are killing them, the unions have gone too far when they force business to pay those who aren't working. And/or huge amounts per hour. And/or high priced benefits, and/or pensions.

Union like a parasite in this case - is killing the host.

Free markets will fix the problem long term, bailouts won't, they are a band-aid.

As we've seen our government always wants to give out more.

PopYoColla
"Pop says: Your party nominated and supported a candidate who co-wrote a pro-immigration legislation and turned right around during election time and said he wouldn't even vote fore HIS OWN LEGISLATION. And you want me to take ANYTHING you republicans have to say???"

So apparently you think we don't have enough home grown felons we should import some more? Do you really understand how many flaws were in that bill? Doubt you even read it or comprehended it.


As to your Messiah...hope he succeeds, however it is not likely but you will make excuses for him I am sure. So far his wish list is nothing more than a history retread or same sh** different day.

Oh and this woman did not nominate him, as usual more emotional hyperbole replete with assumptions on your part.

So tell me idiot...Bush and Paulson are going to bail out the Big 3...you gonna give them credit for it? Nope you will give what little credit there is to the Messiah who hasn't even been certified yet let alone sworn in. You will save all of his blame as well for Bush I am sure.

Bottom line...Dems days are numbered because they aren't delivering the goods and can't deliver on their current course. Wonder what those bailouts will do when the government itself is bankrupt? All of the money in the world means nothing if it is worthless.

PopYoColla/Lolo
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 4:51 PM EST ... The bottom line is you had your chance. *Conservatism* America is fed up to here with you, Limbaugh, Hannity, Rove and all the rest of you. There's a new day coming and a new "messiah" as you guys so lovingly *sarcasm* like to call him. Your worst fears is that he gets into office and actually does a good job. It will finally expose your party and it's ideas for what they are....#####!* "

WOW I think we just met a real working person LOL well said

PopYa Colla
Take a Hike, StockBoy!

Lolo1
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 4:39 PM EST Subject: PopYoColla .... Reality is government overreach with Freddie, Fannie, and all their stupid CAFE standards and lawsuits run amuck have killed the auto industry more than anything else."

There is not one bit of truth in this limbawlism. Maybe you should take some economic and government courses


PopYoColla

"Lolo
No im not telling you that you just just pay taxes no matter how high and just shut up. But when someone presents to me the situation of my tax dollars going to the big 3 or to wall street, I say the big 3. Any day of the week. Period. You are blinded by your loyalty to the GOP and you as well will be rendered as a back bencher like the rest of the GOP"



No idiot. I am blinded by my loyalty to America and would rather not see her make the same stupid mistakes as the rest of the world. When are the Dems going to learn that you can't legislate away human nature?

Oh and those back benchers just blocked your bail out and the country is overwhelmingly with them. Did you miss what I said about bailout without reform?

Thankfully.....
I have to go to work, because by the grace of God, I do still have a job to go do. Even tho they are cutting my hours. And I work at a distribution center for one of the biggest drug store chains in the US. But hell, I could be a member of the UAW and be equated with the devil all the while im worried about my job and family...during christmas.

The bottom line is think about it this way.
What if Jesus decided not to "bail you out" of your sins. You think the earth is getting warmer? Imagine how hot it is in hell.

It's this ironic. A liberal who believes in Christ. Good nite, TH. Stay hateful as usual.

What does the MSM say about bias? 5

“I think liberalism lives — the notion that we don’t have to stay where we are as a society, we have promises to keep, and it is liberalism, whether people like it or not, which has animated all the years of my life. What on Earth did conservatism ever accomplish for our country? It was people who wanted to change things for the better.”
— Charles Kuralt talking with Morley Safer on the CBS special, One for the Road with Charles Kuralt, May 5, 1994.


“I won’t make any pretense that the ‘American Agenda’ [segments on World News Tonight] is totally neutral. We do take a position. And I think the public wants us now to take a position. If you give both sides and ‘Well, on the one hand this and on the other that’ — I think people kind of really want you to help direct their thinking on some issues.”
— ABC News reporter Carole Simpson on CNBC’s Equal Time, August 9, 1994.

“As the science editor at Time I would freely admit that on this issue we have crossed the boundary from news reporting to advocacy.”
— Time Science Editor Charles Alexander at a September 16, 1989 global warming conference at the Smithsonian Institution as quoted by David Brooks in an October 5, 1989 Wall Street Journal column

PopYoColla
"Pop says: Do you deny that your party is anti-immigration, anti-union, and anti-homosexuality?"

So let me get this straight pinhead. Because we against ILLEGAL immigration, we against ALL immigration? Because we are against gay MARRIAGE, we against ALL gays? Because we against union THUGGERY, we are against ALL unions?

WHAT BS! Pure emotionalism with no basis in fact what so ever. BTW dolt, do you have any idea how many liberals are against those things as well? Your intellect is about that of a two year old. Since this a public forum I will not mind my own business. You posted here so you made it everyone's business idiot. You just don't like being called on the carpet for your stupidity.

What does the MSM say about bias? 4

“I thought he [former CBS News correspondent Bernard Goldberg] made some very good points. There is just no question that I, among others, have a liberal bias. I mean, I’m consistently liberal in my opinions. And I think some of the, I think Dan [Rather] is transparently liberal. Now, he may not like to hear me say that. I always agree with him, too, but I think he should be more careful.”
— CBS’s 60 Minutes commentator Andy Rooney on Goldberg’s book, Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News, on CNN’s Larry King Live, June 5, 2002

There is a liberal bias. It’s demonstrable. You look at some statistics. About 85 percent of the reporters who cover the White House vote Democratic, they have for a long time. There is a, particularly at the networks, at the lower levels, among the editors and the so-called infrastructure, there is a liberal bias. There is a liberal bias at Newsweek, the magazine I work for — most of the people who work at Newsweek live on the upper West Side in New York and they have a liberal bias....[ABC White House reporter] Brit Hume’s bosses are liberal and they’re always quietly denouncing him as being a right-wing nut.”
— Newsweek Washington Bureau Chief Evan Thomas on Inside Washington, May 12, 1996.

“I think this is another reflection of the overwhelming journalistic tilt towards liberalism and those programs. Now, the question is whether that’s bad or not, and that’s another debate. But the idea that many of us, and my colleagues deny that there is this kind of bias is nuts, because there is in our world — I forget what the surveys show, but most of us are Democratic and probably most of us line up in the fairly liberal world.”
— Time Washington contributing editor Hugh Sidey responding to a caller who asked if journalists are in favor of affirmative action, July 21, 1995 C-SPAN Washington Journal.

tom asks:
"Are you actually saying that most of the Wall Street CEO's are Dems?"
-----

That's not what you stated in your original post.

You said the top 10,000 wage-earners on Wall St.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

Now who's stupid?


(Wow - Georgetwin is right!)

Lolo
Lolo says: "Last time I checked no conservative was advocating outlawing homosexuality, kicking out all Muslims, and no immigration what so ever."

Pop says: Your party nominated and supported a candidate who co-wrote a pro-immigration legislation and turned right around during election time and said he wouldn't even vote fore HIS OWN LEGISLATION. And you want me to take ANYTHING you republicans have to say???

The bottom line is you had your chance. *Conservatism* America is fed up to here with you, Limbaugh, Hannity, Rove and all the rest of you. There's a new day coming and a new "messiah" as you guys so lovingly *sarcasm* like to call him. Your worst fears is that he gets into office and actually does a good job. It will finally expose your party and it's ideas for what they are....Bull$#!*

What does the MSM say about bias? 3

“Of course it is....These are the social issues: gay rights, gun control, abortion and environmental regulation, among others. And if you think The Times plays it down the middle on any of them, you’ve been reading the paper with your eyes closed.”
— New York Times Public Editor Daniel Okrent in a July 25, 2004 column which appeared under a headline asking, “Is The New York Times a Liberal Newspaper?”

“I think most claims of liberal media bias are overblown. At the same time, I do think that reporters often let their cultural predilections drive their coverage of social issues, and the coverage of the gay marriage amendment offers a perfect example....Why do reporters assume that the amendment is a fringe concern? Perhaps because nearly all live in big cities, among educated, relatively affluent peers, who hold liberal views on social matters. In Washington and New York, gay marriage is an utterly mainstream proposition. Unfortunately, in most of the country, it’s not.”
— New Republic Senior Editor Jonathan Chait, CBSNews.com, March 1, 2004.

What does the MSM say about bias? 2

“I know a lot of you believe that most people in the news business are liberal. Let me tell you, I know a lot of them, and they were almost evenly divided this time. Half of them liked Senator Kerry; the other half hated President Bush.”
— CBS’s Andy Rooney on the November 7, 2004 60 Minutes.

“Most members of the establishment media live in Washington and New York. Most of them don’t drive pickup trucks, most of them don’t have guns, most of them don’t go to NASCAR, and every day we’re not out in areas that care about those things and deal with those things as part of their daily lives, we are out of touch with a lot of America and with a lot of America that supports George W. Bush.”
— ABC News Political Director Mark Halperin during live television coverage immediately before John Kerry’s concession speech on November 3, 2004.



What does the MSM say about bias? 1

“The elephant in the newsroom is our narrowness. Too often, we wear liberalism on our sleeve and are intolerant of other lifestyles and opinions....We’re not very subtle about it at this paper: If you work here, you must be one of us. You must be liberal, progressive, a Democrat. I’ve been in communal gatherings in The Post, watching election returns, and have been flabbergasted to see my colleagues cheer unabashedly for the Democrats.”
— Washington Post “Book World” editor Marie Arana in a contribution to the Post’s “daily in-house electronic critiques,” as quoted by Post media reporter Howard Kurtz in an October 3, 2005 article.

“I worked for the New York Times for 25 years. I could probably count on one hand, in the Washington bureau of the New York Times, people who would describe themselves as people of faith....I think one of the real built-in biases in the media is towards secularism....You want diversity in the newsroom, not because of some quota, but because you have to have diversity to cover the story well and cover all aspects of a society. And you don’t have religious people making the decisions about where coverage is focused. And I think that’s one of the faults.”
— Former New York Times reporter Steve Roberts, now a journalism professor at George Washington University, on CNN’s Reliable Sources, March 27, 2005.

“Personally, I have a great affection for CBS News....But I stopped watching it some time ago. The unremitting liberal orientation finally became too much for me. I still check in, but less and less frequently. I increasingly drift to NBC News and Fox and MSNBC.”
— Former CBS News President Van Gordon Sauter in an op-ed published January 13, 2005 in the Los Angeles Times.


Retired Geek
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 4:29 PM EST Subject: My Union Experience ... We had certain production quotas and anything above that received a bonus. I worked very hard and was receiving a good weekly bonus.

My life was threatened, my car was vandalized and the Union bosses hated me.

Even though none of these cowards would take me on personally (typical Liberals who only attack the weak) I finally decided to quit."

Quitting was cowardly. Not playing well with others was cowardly. Not standing up was simply cowardly

"...I walked out that day and promised myself I would never belong to a Union again or buy anything Union made that I could buy Non Union made..."

LOL see you knew you behaved cowardly and were ashamed. Thangs for explaining your hostility

Lolo
No im not telling you that you just just pay taxes no matter how high and just shut up. But when someone presents to me the situation of my tax dollars going to the big 3 or to wall street, I say the big 3. Any day of the week. Period. You are blinded by your loyalty to the GOP and you as well will be rendered as a back bencher like the rest of the GOP

Primus54
"I love how liberals (and union members) use this fictitious "10%" labor cost number.

What the Big 3 did was shift much of the "parts assembly" from their own plants to their up-line suppliers (also union).

So - instead of GM directly paying the labor - the labor is now included in their "material costs".

Classic shell game."



BINGO!

PopYoColla
I will say one thing I do agree with you on. I do not think that this is all the fault of the UAW. Big 3 made some seriously bad business decisions as well.

Primas54
Are you actually saying that most of the Wall Street CEO's are Dems?

Please tell me that you are not that naive or stupid?

As for myour claim that 9 out 10 in newsrooms are libs:

"Accusers of liberal or conservative bias typically ignore the dictionary meanings of those words (as do modern political parties). In fact, in the current political discourse, the words seem to have meaning that shifts depending on point of view. The Oxford American Dictionary defines "liberal" in the political sense as "favoring democratic reform and individual liberty" and "conservative" in the political sense as "favoring private enterprise and freedom from government control".

PopYoColla
"Pop says: There's a difference between ideology and plain common sense and good judgement. A viable auto industry in this country is good for ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS. Not just the UAW workers. That's the difference between a bailout for the Big 3 and a bailout of your local mom and pop store. Their downfall wont affect millions like the fall of the Big 3 will."


Bailout without reform is throwing good money after bad. We will be right back where we are now as we have been in the past. Chapter 11 would actually do more to help the Big 3 then anything else. As to your stupid comments about auto companies abroad...they sell their cars at a much higher price, so it has little to do with what you are proposing. You going to tell me that a BMW is cheaper than a Chrysler? Not hardly.

Reality is government overreach with Freddie, Fannie, and all their stupid CAFE standards and lawsuits run amuck have killed the auto industry more than anything else. Government is bailing them, make no mistake they will get bailed out, because they have to cover up their misdeeds.

PopYoColla writes:
"Pop says: Labor costs is 10 percent of a vehicle. The other 90 is parts, supplies, bills, design, overhead, CEO and top board salaries as well as bonuses. Not to mention they do want to make a profit."
-----

I love how liberals (and union members) use this fictitious "10%" labor cost number.

What the Big 3 did was shift much of the "parts assembly" from their own plants to their up-line suppliers (also union).

So - instead of GM directly paying the labor - the labor is now included in their "material costs".

Classic shell game.

Retired Geek
Retired Geek says: Simply Do Not Buy anything Union made

I wouldn't buy any car that is Union made.

I buy a new car every year - if enough of us boycotted the Union made cars - we wouldn't be having this discussion."

Pop says: The unions are responsible fore the safe working conditions, 40 hour work week and paid vacation that you enjoy at your job. Yea, you're right. Damn the unions. Think about this the next time you call in sick to work and still get paid.

PopYoColla
"BTW, regarding who's paying taxes to help who. The bottom line is regardless of a bailout of any industry, regardless of any welfare program, regardless of war or lack thereof, YOU ARE GONNA PAY TAXES. Republican leaders have fooled the "sheep" into searching for the mythical pot of gold."


So now you are telling me that in our Republic that we should just pay our taxes, regardless of how high they are, and shut up and not say anything about how much they take or how it is spent?

Are you a communist or a fascist?

More simpleton 'this' or 'that' lack of logic and stereotype from you. Show me one Conservative that has ever advocated no taxes what so ever. Just like your stupid lack of logic on gays and immigration. Last time I checked no conservative was advocating outlawing homosexuality, kicking out all Muslims, and no immigration what so ever.

Pure hyperbole and BS on your part.

PopYoColla
"...For auto plants abroad, their governments have national healthcare so the auto companies incur no healthcare cost. Not to mention when their auto industries are in trouble, they help them out. That's why Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are successful. They were first in the fuel-efficiency race. They were first to provide true reliablity at decent cost. Lastly, they are 100% supported by their national governments..."

WOW you are you are nailing it all

Lolo 2
Lolo says: "Trust me when I tell you that you are wasting your time speaking of economics or capitalism with liberals. Economics and capitalism do not recognize emotionalism. Emotionalism does not like facts. Throw a fact or two out there and what you get from them is the world's biggest hissy fit."

Pop says: There's a difference between ideology and plain common sense and good judgement. A viable auto industry in this country is good for ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS. Not just the UAW workers. That's the difference between a bailout for the Big 3 and a bailout of your local mom and pop store. Their downfall wont affect millions like the fall of the Big 3 will.

In fact, it is Republicans who are too emotionally invested in their party and it's out-of-date ideals. You guys haven't had an idea or a leader since 1865.

My Union Experience

I was a member of the United Steelworkers Union in my early twenties.

My first child was just born and I wanted to be a good provider.

We had certain production quotas and anything above that received a bonus. I worked very hard and was receiving a good weekly bonus.

My life was threatened, my car was vandalized and the Union bosses hated me.

Even though none of these cowards would take me on personally (typical Liberals who only attack the weak) I finally decided to quit.

I walked out that day and promised myself I would never belong to a Union again or buy anything Union made that I could buy Non Union made.

Many other Americans feel the same way I do - that is why Union rolls have dropped drastically and 'Right to Work' has substantially grown.

Boycott anything Union Made!

Lolo
Lolo says: "First off Reps didn't pass the bailouts...Dems did, since they have the majority. Did a few Reps vote for it...yep but by and large Dems passed it."

Pop says: Only after being told by Bush and Paulson that if this didn't past, the stone ages was comin' tomorrow. Bush and Paulson are still Republicans aren't they? Wait, you guys threw him under the bus on Nov. 5th.

Lolo says: "All the rest of your posts are based on stereotype and emotional projection and hyperbole, like your stupid nonsensical Reps against immigration, gays, blah, blah, blah, etc. What pure garbage on your part."

Pop says: Do you deny that your party is anti-immigration, anti-union, and anti-homosexuality?

Lolo says: "As to the unions, to everything their is a ripple. The labor cost to production ratio is absolutely exorbitant and hamstrings them right out of jobs"

Pop says: Labor costs is 10 percent of a vehicle. The other 90 is parts, supplies, bills, design, overhead, CEO and top board salaries as well as bonuses. Not to mention they do want to make a profit.

Maybe YOU should get a little better at this debate thing or just mind your own business. Unplug yourself from the right wing machine and think for yourself for once. Think not just about the autoworkers, but the suppliers. The workers at Goodyear who make tires. Glass makers. Paint makers. Leather makers. On and On and On. Not to mention their husbands, wives and kids.



Retired Geek
"Date: Dec 12, 2008 - 4:10 PM EST Liberals reward failure

Why do Liberals want to punish success and reward failure?"

LOL LOL you nailed it LMAO

what you call "punishing success" PopYoColla
calls "... In my neighborhood, it's called not forgetting where you came from, not burning bridges." Where I come from it is called giving back. We are right you are wrong ... in my humble view of course.

PopYoColla
"Pop says: BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! This coming from the party that is anti-union, anti-immigration, anti-gay, as well as anti-muslim among others? You guys make this too easy."


BTW....What party has all of the dividing caucuses such as the Hispanic Caucus, the Progressive Caucus, the Black Caucus, etc? What next the Gay Caucus? Welfare Caucus?

As to your stupid comment about Red states and Blue states the tax disparity has been that way for decades, so that is not the problem. The problem is the overreach of liberal government and never ending entitlements. Bureaucracy costs money.

Simply Do Not Buy anything Union made

I wouldn't buy any car that is Union made.

I buy a new car every year - if enough of us boycotted the Union made cars - we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Pistol 2
BTW, regarding who's paying taxes to help who. The bottom line is regardless of a bailout of any industry, regardless of any welfare program, regardless of war or lack thereof, YOU ARE GONNA PAY TAXES. Republican leaders have fooled the "sheep" into searching for the mythical pot of gold. They got you wishing and wanting for a country with no taxes. Well, that's a country with no roads, no police, no firemen, no military, no schools, no law. That isn't even a country at all. So would you rather your tax money go to help a fellow american in Detroit who wants his or her kids to have as nice a Christmas as yours? Or would you rather it go to some old man working for AIG to get a back rub and a happy ending at one of those fancy retreats they're going to. ON OUR TAX DOLLARS!!!!!

Did you hear me? Some exec from AIG got a happy ending at a resort from some hooker paid for by your tax dollars and you want to be mad when a real american worker needs help?

Not to much in the Christmas spirit are we, Scrooge?

Pistol
It's not the fault of the workers for building the cars that they were told to build by upper management. The truth of the matter is Honda's sales are down 30%. It's all over the whole auto industry. The difference is that the retiree costs weigh down the Big 3. Foreign auto makers dont have that problem because, for workers in the US, their plants haven't been open long enough to have retirees. For auto plants abroad, their governments have national healthcare so the auto companies incur no healthcare cost. Not to mention when their auto industries are in trouble, they help them out. That's why Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are successful. They were first in the fuel-efficiency race. They were first to provide true reliablity at decent cost. Lastly, they are 100% supported by their national governments.

Now, does that answer your question?

RetiredGeek
So that they can create MORE of their BIGGEST core constituency, THE VICTIM!

Primus54

"Subject: PopYoColla

Have you ever really studied the UAW collective bargaining agreement?

Do you know how many "extra" employees are paid to sit on their behinds just "in case" another worker calls in sick? Or takes one of their many, many vacation days?

Do you have any idea how long a "displaced worker" draws full pay for no work if their plant is closed?

You focus only on the "hourly rate" that appears on the paycheck but fail to address the several dollars per hour the company is committed for these "benefits" plus their government mandated employer taxes.

BTW, you seem to no little about the true cost of living here in the "rust-belt" - no big surprise given you are located in California.

Here's a clue. A 2,000 sq. ft., 4 bedroom, 2-1/2 bath house here in central Ohio goes for about 180 to 200k.

In certain places in CA, you are looking at close to a million dollars.

You can RENT a 1,500 sq. ft townhouse here for under a $1,000.

That would be what? $2,500 to $4,000 there?

$28 per hour PLUS the benefits HERE is considered strong middle class.

Bah... I'm wasting my time with you.

Oh - you also suffer with the mistake of assuming all conservatives are Republicans.

Not me..."



Trust me when I tell you that you are wasting your time speaking of economics or capitalism with liberals. Economics and capitalism do not recognize emotionalism. Emotionalism does not like facts. Throw a fact or two out there and what you get from them is the world's biggest hissy fit.