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Friday, November 21, 2008
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Evangelicals - A Drag on or Essential to the GOP?
by David Limbaugh
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A good friend of mine (let's call him Bob) is convinced that unless the GOP puts abortion "aside as its focal point, it simply cannot win and regain power." That's especially interesting in light of Kathleen Parker's latest column, which disses the evangelical wing of the GOP.

Bob's point is that "we've lost a majority of women over this issue as they have become one-issue voters." It's not only liberal women but also others who believe it's simply not the government's business.

Kathleen Parker broadens the point considerably beyond abortion: "The evangelical, right-wing, oogedy-boogedy branch of the GOP is what ails the erstwhile conservative party and will continue to afflict and marginalize its constituents if reckoning doesn't soon cometh." Since the 1980s or so, says Parker, the GOP "has become increasingly beholden to an element that used to be relegated to wooden crates on street corners. … The GOP has surrendered its high ground to its lowest brows. In the process, the party has alienated its non-base constituents."

I'll resist the temptation to respond specifically to Kathleen's uncharitable indictment of us knuckle draggers because I like Kathleen personally and because I want to respond to her and Bob's overlapping contention that certain social conservatives are dragging the party down.

Bob's opinion is largely based on his personal conversations with women, and Kathleen writes, "If one were to eavesdrop on private conservations among the party intelligentsia, one would hear precisely that … armband religion is killing the Republican Party." But do their anecdotal reports justify their conclusions?

2004 exit poll data reveal that President Bush got 55 percent of the male vote and 48 percent of the female vote, while 2008 data show that McCain got 48 percent of the male vote and 43 percent of the female vote. McCain's percentage of the male vote dropped more than his percentage of the female vote, so it's hard to see how alienated women made the difference.

Plus Karl Rove tells us that there were 4.1 million fewer Republicans voting this year than in 2004, some of whom he believed turned independent or Democratic for this election, which might validate Kathleen's thesis, except that Rove says that most of those 4.1 million "simply stayed home."

What's even more interesting is there was an almost identical drop-off (4.1 million) of those voters who attend religious services more than once a week (evangelicals, anyone?).

I'm thinking Bob needs to avoid angry women, and Kathleen should steer clear of those intelligentsia types, for there is another 2008 exit poll gem they might not have seen. Top issues for voters were: economy (63 percent); war in Iraq (10 percent); terrorism (9 percent); and health care (9 percent). It appears that neither abortion nor any other social issue even made honorable mention.

It's not debatable that Obama had a vastly superior organization and "ground game" and did an infinitely better job than McCain of marketing himself and inspiring voters with his charisma and his nebulous message of hope and change. Despite all these advantages, McCain -- largely because of the jolt of enthusiasm he injected into his anemic campaign by naming the conspicuously pro-life Christian Sarah Palin his running mate -- was surging ahead in the national polls right before the subprime meltdown reared its game-changing head. Though Democratic policies and actions mostly caused it, Republicans got the blame -- and McCain was finished.

Considering all those unique factors in 2008, it's premature to say this election represents the emergence of a sustained national power shift in favor of the Democrats -- though admittedly, current demographic trends are problematic for the GOP.

But if social issues were so advantageous for Obama, why did he hide and distort his record on abortion? Why did he not brag about the liberal activist judges he is sure to appoint? Why did he attempt -- other than when he thought his microphone was off in San Francisco -- to paint himself as a mainstream Christian who wants to reduce abortions? Why did mainstream media debate moderators deliberately avoid these issues?

I believe Kathleen is wrong in saying "either the Republican Party needs a new base -- or the nation may need a new party." The opposite is true: The party needs to quit betraying the base, on both social and economic issues.

I do believe some of my fellow Christian conservatives are too single issue-oriented and am appalled that so many stayed home, given the gravity of the stakes in this election. But the fact remains that it was McCain's underemphasis rather than overemphasis of the social issues that cost him Republican votes.

But the far more important answer to Bob and Kathleen is that the Republican Party can no more do without pro-lifers than human beings can survive without hearts. It's who they are. There's already a party stressing economic conservatism nearly to the exclusion of social issues, and the last time I checked, our beloved Libertarians weren't garnering a great percentage of the vote.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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liberals

Liberals are the problem with the GOP. When in the majority they govern like liberals, so why vote for the counterfeit when you can vote for the real thing?


GOP Chickens are coming home...
So Limbaugh wants us to believe that the Republican Party received a "heart" when it adopted its "pro life" stance to the party platform?...Whats REALLY interesting is that the former "Party of Lincoln" did not have to visit the Wizard to actually RECEIVE this "heart"....No, the heart transplant originated via a bright young GOP Analyst. He was a numbers geek who came up with a "game changing idea" that would deliver Presidential Election Dominance to the GOP for "40 years". The idea was based on recruiting the Southern States to the GOP with the message of "states rights". At the time, the Southern States were REALLY MAD at their once-beloved Democratic Party after they passed the Civil Rights Amendment...Over time, the GOP started to adopt the "Cultural Issues" that would appease the new Southern voting bloc....The alliance with the South was forged in the politics of division and race...These politics have become less productive as Americas demographics have changed (Where have you gone, Willie Horton?)...Limbaugh and Co don't acknowledge this fact ("If only the McCain campaign would have kept playing Reverend Wright tapes..")...The GOP is quickly becoming a Regional Party....The tide has turned. The "Conservatives" tell us that America's a "Center-Right Country" so they propose to throw out the "Center" of the Republican Party in order to win(?)...No, the GOP will continue to slide until it has the courage to pivot away from the divisive forces that it embraced which gave it the "heart" that Limbaugh speaks about. For those who doubt this opinion, Google "Nixon Southern Strategy" and read the NY times article,1970..The REAL problem with the GOP is that the party's Chickens are coming home to roost and their "heart" is leading the march.

What truth

That is exactly what the GOP tried in this past election truthurts, ignore the conservative base and nominate a liberal. It worked swell didn't it.

Why not just adopt a soviet style single party system. O, that is what we have now!

Saltydog, what "Conservative base"?...
Which "Conservative base" are you talking about?..Is it the "base" that the party was founded on? You know, the one which emphasizes Indvidual Liberty and Fiscal restraint?...NO. The "base" has been outsourced to the "Social Conservatives" who define "RHINO" as any one who believes that the Gov't should stay out of a woman's right to choose...The "Libertarians" owe their increased attraction ENTIRELY to the Social Conservative base.

Fiscal

Let me just say our most popular republican president didn't throw either side under the bus. He did seek to reduce the size and power of government, even with a liberal house.

When the GOP had control of both branches, we got the largest expanse of government sense LBJ.


A gem of truth
David Limbaugh wrote:
"The opposite is true: The party needs to quit betraying the base, on both social and economic issues."

That is a gem of truth in the article. Could not have stated it better myself.

TruthHurts
Relying upon the NY Times for truthfulness is extremely foolish. If you have not figured out by now that the NY Times is a very heavily biased liberal rag, then you need help. I would suggest reading the Constitution (and not injecting any liberal mind-set into it while you are reading). I would also recommend reading The Bill of Rights and The Federalist Papers for a much truer indication of what the Founders had in mind for the government of this country. For one thing, they did not have a problem with religion in government - but they had a major distrust of government interfering in religion.

Graham/Lieberman 2012!!!
McCain loses w/ the mavericky "principle" of joining the opposition. Here's an idea: How about let's try running an actual conservative w/ enough money to get by the lib media construct of iowa/old hempshire giving us their hand picked loser in waiting?

Give me any combo of Palin/Jindal/Romney in 2012 and I'll give even money that we win. As long as "Big Mac" hasn't put his dirty little RINO fingerprints all over amnesty, tax hikes, card check, "global warming", etc. that is.

All of the above is true

All of the above is true. The party has and continues to betray its base.

But there is a valid concern over being too narrow with respect to abortion.

Conservatives have allowed Liberals to frame the debate in terms of support or oppose a womans right to choose.

This framework does not allow for any variations in viewpoints.

Some coservatives want to ban all abortions some only government funded abortions. Some want reasonable restrictions on abortions. Some want no restrictions on abortions.

What is the middle groud that all can live with until society figures what direction it wants to go?

Well polls say approx. 64% of americans want the option for abortions to remain legal with some restrictions.

Liberals oppose all restrictions.

Conservatives can live with some restrictions like parental notification. 3 day waiting period. Full disclosure by abortion clinics. No tax payer funding of abortions.

Conservative candidates who support or oppose abortions can campaign on any of the above restrictions and still get elected if they sell the idea as being justifiable and reasonable.
They just need to be truthful and explain that they will not vote to totally take away a woman's right to choose.

Conservative Candidates who oppose abortion can campaign on the moral grounds that taking a innocent life is just not acceptable in their view.

If what you believe personally is different than what you think is good public policy, then state that as well. Its ok if they conflict.

The key here is to be honest, forthcoming, and say what you think. Conservative voters do not like uncertainty in their candidates.

McCain
It might have helped if he was an economic conservative.

That goes for the rest of the Party too.

The deal is that living your values is much more effective than preaching them.

Sarah attracted more than a few PUMAs to her position on abortion by being an example and otherwise being silent. People find that attractive.

And you know it would be good for the party to be attractive.

You know we could be the party that treats Americans like grown ups. Let them make their own decisions.

Stop being the Nanny Statists on Culture and stop joining the Nany Statists on economics.

The nail in the thesis's coffin
"There's already a party stressing economic conservatism nearly to the exclusion of social issues, and the last time I checked, our beloved Libertarians weren't garnering a great percentage of the vote."

Wish I had said that.




Whodunit?
All the discussion of what went wrong seems to miss one fundamental point. Congress is what needs to change. They are the ones who create most of the problems. We keep electing corrupt career politicians instead of continuing to vote incumbents out until they get the message. The problem is not the Party, you guessed it, it is us.

TruthHurts?? comments are Chicken Poop
The Republican Party was formed when Lincoln cemented the people around the concept that humans are not property that can be destroyed at the whim of the master. The Conservative Pary will emmerge (or possibly the Republican Party will be saved) when we elevate the right leader who can articulate that the human embryo is not the property of the woman that can be destroyed at the whim of the master.

Abortion is being used as contraception and that my friend is the crime that must come to an end. Do not fill me with "what about rape, etc", that is nonsense, there will be exceptions in the case of a crime.

I believe that the NEW REPUBLICAN CAUSE will be a rally around the RIGHT TO LIFE, incorporating the end of the death penalty as well ... based upon CONSERVATIVE VALUES. Our society does not need capital punishment when life in prison without parole is sufficient and cheaper than 20 years of legal appeals.


Sorry, Evangelicals Aren't Going away.
They have the right to support candidates that support their positions. If this is too heavy of a load for the GOP to carry, then I would like to see a split. The conservatives, evangelicals can form the Conservative Party and the GOP can go do whatever they want and invent whatever moderate platform they think will blow with the right wind. No thanks. I would rather support a party that stands on principle and actually stands for something and lose an election then be a party of chameleons. Kathleen Parker, it wouldn't break my heart to see you leave the party. She has trying to turn the party into Dem Lite for a long time.

Whigs and Know-Nothings
If a pro-choice conservative cannot be a Republican in good standing, the future of the GOP is in serious doubt. The party is becoming a one-trick pony. The Ideological Purity Party (ie. fundamentalism rules!) can join the Whigs and Know-Nothings in the dust heap of history. New party slogan? How about "We embrace losing!" or "No Compromise!"

Christians betrayed true life principles
I think not much has been said of the born again christians that didn't stay home, they voted for Mr. Obama. I happen to know several. I know them and don't have any doubt about there salvation, I just can't understand their reasoning. They call the abortion issue a "red herring" that is just a republican byword to get elected. To mistrust republicans does not justify voting for pro abortion candidates unless the issue doesn't bother you anymore. If christians have come to that point, Shame on us. Shame on the pastors who have the responsibility to instruct, and have sat on the sidelines and said nothing.

Social issues
The GOP is losing among suburbanites and college educated people, many of whom loathe the rigid diatribes of so-called Christians.

Second, big spending and bailouts are the opposite of what the GOP should represent.

This is what ails the Republicans. Why did I vote for two Libertarians and only one Republican in the last election? Well, they are closer to my beliefs at the present time.

Evangelical misdirection of GOP.........
We the People, decries all people and all beliefs. Not One and that has been the problem of the Extreme Evangelicals. They have pushed us towards a religious state not unlike to many what they see is Irans and most of the Middle East.
For America to survive we must never, I MEAN NEVER, allow Church and State to merge. Religion is more at the core of keeping us centered and true righteous people, not our Governor.
God will Judge us on how we lived our lives, not how well we ran our government. And our laws he all ready knows where written by men not GOD.

The stupidity of it all
Come on! We all know that the reason the republicans lost is that we LEFT our principles, our values- of morality, dignity of human life, sacredness of marriage, and less government.
What so now we are to become more like the liberals to save the party? This is what I call metamorphisis into the LEFT. Leave the elephant behind and become the ELEPHASS!

Our Ideas - not there ideas
The media sits back and tells us how we need to 'change' in order to win. This is the same media that swooned over BHO. Of course they say we need to change - they don't like us. We need to start listening to America. If we had a candidate other that McCain, we would have blown the Dems away. As poster #16 perfectly stated, there were a large number of Christians who voted for BHO (even though he approves of partial birth abortion) because we left our economic and social issues in the trash. I too cannot believe the Christian friends I have that voted Dem this year, but it happened. It's time for the Republican party to dump the libs out of our party and get some real conservative blood in. I am so tired of pandering to the left - remember, clean doesn't rub off on dirt.
Let us remember how this country started, read The Constitution, Bill of Rights, and (if you can still find any true ones) some history books about our Founding Fathers. Gov't should not control Religion, but God should be the driving force behind our political decisions.
May God Bless America!

butcher
Yes God will judge us on how we run the government. How one runs the government is the same as how one runs his or her own life- they are not exclusive of each other.
We are talking about principles that are core to the protection of society- like sanctity of LIFE and protection of MARRIAGE and LESS government. These principles came from the LAWS of God not man.
When government can do whatever it darn well pleases because the Christians need to just stand back- Watch Out! I think you need to watch some documentaries on Stalin and Mao.

Dear Ms Parker

Can you please tell me where the Republican party is going to get the votes it needs to win future elections by alienating white evangelicals (who make up 25% of the electorate) Please show me how appealing to gays or feminist or the non-religious is going to overcome the base support you will surely lose by abandoning our pro-life beliefs, pro Christian beliefs?

I guess Ms Parker longs to return to the days where country club republicans were happy being in the minority while the Left went about the business of destroying the country (remember the 60's & 70's?)

The GOP Dump God Hoax
Who's kidding who? This is not about evangelicals any more than abortion is really about choice. It's about dumping God. The culture wars of the sixties are still with us as they attempt to conclude their final mop up battles. They fought authority - especially moral authority and dumping calling what they do sin and reminding them about being creatures of God was, and is, high on their agenda and explains much of the left's real perverse attraction. It pretends that evil is really goodness -that sex is love -that murder of innocent life is a good thing - that private sin won't spill over into public life as they force same sex marriage, elect an pro-infanticide president, and seduce even otherwise conservative thinkers into believing that conservativism without God has much value.
They visualize a world where the trains run cheaply and on time and will even tolerate some eco-worship to keep God out of their lives.
To limit this timeless battle that St. paul warned us about to just the evangelical movement is to miss its real goal - God.
Since he has told us that we are either with Him or against Him, the sides are clearly drawn.


Dear Ms Parker

Can you please tell me where the Republican party is going to get the votes it needs to win future elections by alienating white evangelicals (who make up 25% of the electorate) Please show me how appealing to gays or feminist or the non-religious is going to overcome the base support you will surely lose by abandoning our pro-life beliefs, pro Christian beliefs?

I guess Ms Parker longs to return to the days where country club republicans were happy being in the minority while the Left went about the business of destroying the country (remember the 60's & 70's?)

Let us all strive to do good
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke (1727 - 1797)

The problem is absolutism
Why must this debate so often be framed in absolutist terms? This is not about being inclusive for evangelicals. It's about the GOP placing such extreme, single-minded, uncompromising emphasis on a single issue - and failing to do so about the Democrats.

Exit and national polls are relatively meaningless, and Limbaugh certainly must know that. What matters is the Electoral College. What matters is the swing districts in the battleground states. A close look at the demographics shows that the GOP lost suburban women; that is what made the electoral difference.

For these voters, this issue is larger than the moral dimension. It's the feeling of discomfort from electing a Southern Baptist minister - that Huckabee was even considered a viable national candidate shows how blind this wing of the party is.

Want a pro-life candidate? Fine. A candidate forceful on cultural values? Fine. But if these positions are seen as punitive and dogmatic, and overshadow the broader conservative philosophy of small govt, liberty, fiscal restraint, and strong defense - the GOP goes the way of the Whigs.

Vote Your Moral Convictions!
I really believe that the successes of the liberals in this country are due primarily to their persuasive ability to convince moral people that we should not impose our morality upon them ... it is a judge not guilt complex ... BS!

The people who support immorality as acceptable behavior have NO PROBLEM ramming their hedonist religious views upon us and down the throats of our young children through the school systems, news media, and movies.

My Lord, how can we accept our schools sending young children out for an abortion without parental consent (or even with parental consent for that matter) as if it were a field trip or an extended recess.

People have a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to vote their moral beliefs ... and they will be judged accordingly ... unfortunately this society will fail as a result of their neglect.

Abortion for instance
Ok, for all those who want us Christians to go away- lets talk about the abortion issue. Why do Christians want so badly to stay on this issue? Its a "dead horse" you say. Well lets look at this issue.
First, we had Roe vs. Wade- simple abortion procedure to protect all those women who DECIDED to have sex (granted few may have been raped) from back room abortions. Next, we have the taxpayers PAY for these abortions. Next, children do not have to notify parents of their abortions. Soon, abortions are more frequent and done further along in the pregnancy (like 5-9 months along). Now, we have crossed the threshhold to GREATER possibilities- PARTIAL-BIRTH abortion (something for us to be so proud of!!!) Where the child is pulled half way out of the mother- the doctor gets his trusty scissors in hand- snips the base of the childs neck (while the child writhes in pain) and sucks the brains out of THIS PRECIOUS HUMAN BEING. So where do we proudly want to go next?

And God wants us to sit back and be good little Christians and not say anything.

Mingus
So what you are saying is that you want a country without any absolutes?

Then say hello to chaos!

The fly in the ointment
"Top issues for voters were: economy (63 percent); war in Iraq (10 percent); terrorism (9 percent); and health care (9 percent). It appears that neither abortion nor any other social issue even made honorable mention."

A better statistic to examine would be percentage of Republicans who voted for McCain/Palin specifically because of the pro-life position and Roe v Wade.

Great Post
Great posts! fuzz-ems #14
Dennis VA #20
Don CT# 23
When the Republican party no longer runs a pro-life candidate that is when I will no longer vote Republican. I think I speak for millions of other conservative Christians as well.

well
This is a very important question that deserves a thorough debate. At present, I can’t say for certain either way although I’m leaning towards yes. I don’t care about gay marriage as much as I care about the deficit; I don’t care about school prayer as much as I care about secure borders. And no, I don’t care about abortion as much as I care about our external wars and internal strife. That is not to make light of the national tragedy of abortion. It is to say that there are several life and death issues confronting us and as long as we make abortion the defining issue, we will remain weakened and divided.

Eric NY
I COULDN'T AGREE MORE "SHAME ON THE PASTORS WHO HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO INSTRUCT, AND HAVE SAT ON THE SIDELINES AND SAID NOTHING!!!

Shelly
Just because you say abortions won't stop anyway, doesn't mean you stop doing what is right.
And what right do you have to say that in a third world country they need to have more abortions? Are you more superior then they?
Is your life more worthy then theirs?

You need to read more on the lives of Hitler, Mao, and Stalin- where they thought the same way you do. Its called Eugenics- where some people in society need to be eliminated in order to preserve the species.
It is truely a scarey thing when people like you come out of the woodwork.

Kathleen Parker is CLUELESS
I'm an American of Mexican descent. Full-blooded Hispanic. I am a social and fiscal conservative as are pretty much all my family members. My father, a die-hard Democrat, who is 83, has never voted for a Republican in his life... until this year. He voted for McCain-Palin. He voted for McCain because of his pro-life stance and because he believed that Obama did not have the experience necessary to be president.

I began voting Republican during the Reagan era precisely because of the party's social conservatism.

The problem isn't the evangelical wing of the Republican Party, which has been the reason the party has won in the past, it's the messengers. I agree we need more minorities and youth in our party. As long as the white haired white guys are the FACE of the party, we will continue to lose.

Kathleen Parker, go ahead and change over to being a Democrat. That's what you really are anyway. Quit pretending to be a Republican. With Republican's like you, we will never win.



Broadening The Base
Did any of you know that the Jewish faith has very liberal abortion laws (almost secular) that allow abortion for the mental health of the mother?

And did you know that 78% of Jews voted for Obama - I wasn't one of them.

It is not about kicking evangelicals out of the party. It is about accommodation to other Faiths and no faith.

I wrote about "The Jewish Position On Abortion" at "Classical Values".

So are the Republicans an Evangelical Party or an American one? Do Evangelicals own the Party or can we make room for other faiths or no faith?

Tell you what. If we have to have a view on abortion based on religion I propose we adopt the Jewish view.

Awaiting the screams...

Hallucinating?
What are these people talking about when they say the GOP's only or primary issue is abortion? McCain and Palin largely talked about other things. It was never the emphasis. Nor was it Bush's main issue when he ran. It's never been the main issue of a Republican Presidential candidate. As to whether it would gain votes if they ran a pro-choice candidate, the answer is absolutely positively NO.

Plus the abortion issue at the Presidential level is largely about what kind of judges they would appoint. The ones who vote that abortion is a constitutional right are the same ones who believe in legislating from the bench. Abortion is not a constitutional right. Those same judges are the ones who vote that CO2 is a pollutant and other bizarre decisions abhorrent to libertarians and other conservatives who are not that concerned with abortion. To get the votes of the pro-choice crowd you have to appoint those kinds of judges. So these people who say "They've got to stop driving libertarians away and nominate a pro-choice candidate to attract pro-choice voters" are confused.

There's not some mass of pro-choice voters out there who are ready to vote for a Republican for President who's conservative on economy, foreign policy, opposes global warming theology, would appoint judges who don't legislate etc. but is pro-choice on abortion. There are a LOT of voters who aren't necessarily conservative on economic issues but are conservative on social issues. If they stay home or vote Democrat it's impossible for the Republican to win.


Get Rid of The GOP
Abortion is abhorrent, but until it becomes common law in the hearts of women not to murder their babies, it's no use to try to use the government to stop it. I support evangelical abolitionist activist groups. And I don't think abortion is the real millstone around teh neck of tne GOP. Clearly, this election proved, it's the warmongering neocons who should be run out of the GOP, along with the RINO collaborators with liberal fascism. Specifically, McCain, Swarzenegger, Graham, Snowe, etc. European-Americans are the Jews of liberal fascism, and unless we act now to protect ourselves against genocide, we are facing a tidal wave of racism, hatred, and terrorism from the Obama machine and his propagandists at NYT/LAT/WAPO/NBC/ABC/CBS/MSNBC. The GOP is doing nothing to protect our rights, our property, or our very existence. European-Americans must establish a Homeland on the North American Continent.

Why republican
When the republican party is a cheap imitation of the democrats, why vote republican? And I wasn't dragging your self-righteous party anywhere. I voted independent. If you don't want me, you won't have my vote.

Christian Vote
Who really thinks Parker has great insight into the evangelical mind? If she wants power at any price, then she should start her own party. Meanwhile, she's convincing no one.

We vote in greatest numbers for Christian candidates who make a really credible promise of small government, low taxes, preservation of life (pro-life, pro-defense), and traditional marriage and values.

Many Christians didn't give McCain either their votes or their voices simply because many of us viewed him as an immoral compromiser who couldn't be expected to do what is right once in office.

I offended many friends to vote for mccain-PALIN. The "lesser of two evils" quandary was palpable throughout the Christian world. Yes, it did affect voter turn-out.

If playing a Christian on the campaign trail helps--and everyone knows it does--then being a real Christian is better.

If promising opportunity to the masses helps, then delivering it through fair, lower taxes and far less government interference will be even more effective. (We're so sick of "Republicans" who promise and then don't even try to deliver.)

If Obama saw that he absolutely HAD TO LIE about his pro-abortion policy, then it couldn't hurt to have a candidate who could tell the truth with a clear conscience. (Only a few morally corrupt and mentally ill people really LIKE abortion.)

If Obama had to play word games with his marriage position, then it couldn't hurt to have a candidate who tells the truth about marriage with his words, with his votes, and with his LIFE.

When we Christians vote, we'll vote for what we believe is right. A little spite and slander won't affect that. We'll just take that with a grain of salt and continue to vote what our hearts believe.

Meanwhile Kathleen's favorite part of the party is increasingly seen as lying, compromising, and money and power hungry.

Good post
Truth hurts from PA

Good post. If only BOTH parties would study there own and each others history, rather than thinking these cycles have never happened before.

This happened to the Dems when they went too far from the middle and now it is the Reps turn. I live in New England and know many Reps here who are furious. Not because they want to leave their party, but because they feel the party has left them.

They do not want absolutism as they see it on moral issues. They feel the government should be small and stay out of adults personal life. They figure adults can make the own moral decisions and don't need evangelicals telling them what they should believe. They are adults and they already know what they believe. In many cases it is not the evangelical vision of God.


I for one
Yes, the republican party might be history. I for one have been trying to show evangelicals that it is not about law but freedom that sets all free. In fact that same point goes for moderate republicans or those lite democrats.

I believe libertarians is where to be. Of course I may be wrong. In that case the republican party will lose 17% of their voters like me, because it has become time to stand on principle, not party. When that happens, the party is finished anyhow. I also believe many not voting would vote if a viable candidate came with constitutional ideas.

After all what is a moderate republican, lite democrat, just which laws they want enforced is the only difference?

We have a rebellion going on, because we want to force morality done someones throat. Christ never did, but Pharisees did and condemned.

Rather I believe in freedom of choice. The culture war started with Adam and Eve and will go on.

To make laws is mob rule. I want a republic where government is very, very, very, limited. Back to constitutional idea government. Where the Feds only have a few responsibilities. Everything after that is mob rule.

Ron Paul has it right. If we do not change, the party is over.

The Party of Lincolin

Well I am with Kathleen and Bob.

How can the republican or any party survive if you put all your eggs in the religions right basket. There are not enough of you to go around any longer and it only give the democrats a crack at anyone who is middle of the road.

Would Goldwater be a republican in good standing today?

Would Lincoln? I know the right to lifers want to compare abortion with slavery. But even though Lincoln was against slavery he was willing to compromise to avoid the break up of the Union.

We won’t go into the irony that the people supporting gay marriage think it is a civil or human rights issues as well. So we have extremists on both sides claiming civil or human rights violations and the rest of us moderates say a pox on all extremists.


Two problems here...
1. A handful of people who are evangelicals presume to speak for them all, which is a lie.

2. The "Right to Life" is a Bill of Rights issue.

Ignoring that and trying to force this into the religious arena is a trick to destroy the conservative movement of the Republican Party. It is a Constitutional and Bill of Rights issue, based on science and facts.

An embryo is the beginning of life, another person's life, not the mother's. But she also has a right to protect her own life. It's not that hard to figure out.

Lots of god posts here
As us Buddhists love to say, "you can't stand in the same river twice".

The world is changing, really fast, and the GOP cannot continue to be your father's republican morality police any longer. Voting on religion has become pointless, irrelevant, and will continue to lose elections.

It is instructive to read the new future forecast that was issued this morning and is appearing on most news sources; life is going to get harder and we will vote for people who can help us keep our homes, educate our kids, and provide for our old age. Who created the world 6,000 years ago is the kind of argument best left to people with spare time and resources.

Religious belief
Many on this post state how much the evangelicals have gotten in the way. Saying that religion should stay out. Now, I agree that government should not be a religious establishment, but whose to say that it is not already become one.
Everyone believes in something- Muslims believe in Allah; Jews believe in God; Buddhists believe in enlightenment; Hindus believe many gods; AND HUMANISTS believe in man.
So my point is that our schools, government, etc.. have already been taken over by a religious system which is HUMANISM.
The government has spent millions of taxpayers money to push this belief system into the schools via Darwinism/evolution (which is still a theory by the way- they haven't seemed to make it a scientific law yet). This all points to a BELIEF/RELIGIOUS entity amidst in our government- so all of you who complain about the Christians- look at who you already have in the house- A RELIGIOUS GROUP CALLED HUMANISTS.

Buddhists respect life
as well. Fascists do not.

It's also instructive that when you
look at 90% of the columnists on TH, most of them are over 55, as are the people who post here. You can also take a look at the audiences at any of the McCain stump rallies or the Palin fan clubs to see that they are almost exclusively white, old, and rural or semi-rural.
This is not the emerging face of America's voters, -- to them, the people who worshipped Palin and voted for McCain were like aliens from another country.

ABORTION ISSUE OVERBLOWN

.....Only the fringe, both right and left, make abortion a litmus test ...

.....The arguement against Roe is that it is bad Constitutional law and should be overturned and returned to the States ...

.....I consider myself a Conservative before I am a Republican but the Republican Party cannot win if they become Democrat Lite ...why vote for a wishy washy wannabe when you can have the real thing? ...

.....The Republican Party needs to go back to the three legged stool of Family values, sound fiscal policy and strong National Defense ...GW cut off the sound fiscal policy leg and brought the Republican Party down with him .....COLOSSUS

Humanism is just as much a religion
Many on this post state how much the evangelicals have gotten in the way. Saying that religion should stay out. Now, I agree that government should not be a religious establishment, but whose to say that it is not already become one.
Everyone believes in something- Muslims believe in Allah; Jews believe in God; Buddhists believe in enlightenment; Hindus believe many gods; AND HUMANISTS believe in man.
So my point is that our schools, government, etc.. have already been taken over by a religious system which is HUMANISM.
The government has spent millions of taxpayers money to push this belief system into the schools via Darwinism/evolution (which is still a theory by the way- they haven't seemed to make it a scientific law yet). This all points to a BELIEF/RELIGIOUS entity amidst in our government- so all of you who complain about the Christians- look at who you already have in the house- A RELIGIOUS GROUP CALLED HUMANISTS.

Agree with Faith
when we were in school, scientific theories were still taught as theories, not facts. All of the major theories were presented, including Creationism. We had educators, not brainwashers.

And HUMANISTS are practicing a personal belief system which they are forcing down everyone else's throat with the govt, even if they have to ignore facts, fudge the line between theories, beliefs and facts, as well as deny people's freedoms to do it. That's unConstitutional.

american woman
Your comment on Buddhists and Fascists is a mystery -- what is it supposed to mean? anything at all?

BTW, Buddhists are pro sentient life.

To Faith:
So what you are saying is that you want a country without any absolutes?

No, I did not say that.

What I did say is that if the GOP uses absolutist policy on an issue that swing and independent voters see as exceedingly complex and needing situational flexibility - and the issue is abortion and these voters are women - then the GOP will lose.

Try coming down from the pulpit and walking in their shoes. They see the GOP as wanting to prohibit all abortions, regardless of circumstance. Even in cases of rape and incest, or when it is a young teenager who is pregnant. They also see the basis for the position, as expressed many times above, as being a rigid traditional institutional morality that clearly states "I know better than thee, and I'll force you accordingly" It is the rigidity and the self-righteousness that not only turns them off, but scares them.

This is reality. Preaching at them won't change that. Patiently providing leadership towards higher values, while respecting these voters feelings, may eventually do so.

There is a difference between believing in certain absolutes, and being an intractable force-feeding absolutist in national policy.


Faith and American Woman
Both ofyour posts are perfect micro-pictures of why the conservative movement in America is fading out.

The notion that "humanists" (?) are taking over the schools and not teaching all science as mere theory is so silly, so outdated, so irrelevant, and so meaningless that nobody will even bother to argue it.

Park
I am young and 40.

Angering
I read Ms. Parker's column in the Washington Post and I confess I found it angering. I don't believe I've heard such self-important "did I mention that I am part of the intelligentsia," adolescent name-calling since junior high. The former mixed with the self-satisfied and silly pretense at martyrdom Ms. Parker rendered herself ridiculous. Exactly which social conservative principle does she find so 'oogedy boogedy?' The stand for the sanctity of marriage, well-I guess the majority of the American people are 'low-brow.' Or, is it our aversion to sticking forks into infants heads. Sorry, we're not going to give that one up.

Majority of Americans are Conservative
So why do lose the elections. Limbaugh is right, because we betray the base and don't do what we said we would do.

I cannot believe that Bush is pushing for the Autoworkers bailout!

I love the guy, but when it comes to economics he just seem to be getting worse.

The conservative principles are what the American people want ... we just need leaders who really believe and will fight for them.

Park, wisdom is knowledge applied.
Why don't you try it?

SIMON IL

.....The jews support abortion ...so what? ...

.....They also supported stoning adultresses to death and sending bears to eat children who made fun of an old man ...

....The Jews support the Democrat Party because by nature they are tribal and collectivism appeals to them ...even though FDR's Secretary of State was an anti-Semite who prevented the European Jews from coming to America after WWII ...the Jews still vote for Democrats ...go figure .....COLOSSUS

Mingus said
"There is a difference between believing in certain absolutes, and being an intractable force-feeding absolutist in national policy."

A Really good post, Mingus. If I had to name just one thing that reflects the biggest difference between Repubs/Cons and Dems/liberals it would be the fundamental differences in approach to complicated problems, especially those involving human behavior. From where I sit, cons see most things in binary opposites, good/bad, good/evil, always right/always wrong, all true/all false, etc. It doesn't take too many minutes reading Town Hall contributors to see that.



KATHLEEN PARKER !
KATHLEEN PARKER IS IN THE O ZONE!KATHLEEN HAS DRANK WAY TOO MUCH LIBERAL KOOL-AID AND MAY BE TALKING TO CNN FOR A NEW JOB!WE NEED TO KEEP OR TRUE CONSERVATIVE BASE,IF WE DONT STAND FOR SOMETHING WE WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING!AND THAT SOMETHING IS EVERYTHING GOD,COUNTRY AND OUR RIGHTS AND THE RIGHTS FOR THE UN-BORN,OUR GUN RIGHTS,AND OUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH,ALL OUR RIGHTS AND MARRIAGE=ONE MAN ONE WOMAN.!WITHOUT THIS BASE ALL YOU HAVE IS BARB THE WALTERS AND THE WIERD VIEW DEMO-RATS!

Hey
I don't care if Kathleen or the GOP suits love me, I will vote my conscience. What RINO or whatever roadkill euphemism is the flavor of the day don't understand is that people of faith have to answer to Someone other than Kathleen, the RINO's and any other know it all
because if we vote for a pro abort we are participating in that torture murder of one of God's babies..their angels are always before His Throne. It is worse for us because we know better, the blood of those babies is heavier on our hands than anyone elses. I regard Proverbs
24:11,12 as a warning. The Christians that voted for Obama have much to answer for, they would have been better off staying home.
I believe God put a stark contrast between life and death with Palin/Obama's prolife/antilife values. The American people had a choice between Life and Death, they chose Death and
it doesn't have to be physical death..look at the economy, the jobs, the deficit..we'd better
pray this is God's chastisement and not his wrath.
And, we don't need the GOP, they need us and if they continue insulting and berating us, we will go elsewhere. And they sure want our money, but not our influence..yeah, ignore us, no money.
Eric #29 Bob #18 Amen
Don #22 Excellent post

Teaching Faith
For people who say that creationism/intellgent design etc. should be in the classroom...who's creation story exactly. Remember each religion has their own take on that.

Would a Southern evangelical be OK with a Hindu story, anymore than a Hindu would be OK with a Muslim or Christian story taught from pre-k up in public school? If you want religion taught in school send children to a religious school as is every parents right.

Evolution says how species come about and change. It does not claim to say who created them only that through time they change. It does not rule in or out religion of any variety because it is not a religious theory. It is a scientific theory.

If you wish to take that as a religious one as well, that is your option. Eveolution only teaches about natural selection. It says nothing about the great flood(devine or not) that may cause it and only that natural selection favors one species over another because of it.

It is a religiously neutral theory because religion does not apply in this case.

As for abortion
I am confused at the number of conservative posters who are enraged by anyone taking help from the government or costly social services, when it would seem to me that if abortion was something they really wanted to eradicate, they would be writing about ways to help women who have to make survival choices, or the babies they feel they have to abort. I never read anything on TH about a plan to simply offer better options.

Park
Oh come on! Go to one of the public schools today and see if they are also teaching Creationism. There are countless stories of young people today who cannot write a paper or even speak of anything else but evolutionism.
Evolutionism is just as much a religious belief as Christianity.

Also on abortion- Abortion is not just an isolated issue- this is an issue of LIFE. Once we start going down this road we end up with partial-birth, live birth deaths, getting rid of the weakest, and euthanasia of the elderly. Is this the road that you want this country to go down?

And park, thanks for showing us
why they dropped school testing and lowered the curve on the SAT's. Fortunately, not every young person is as dumb as you are.

It is people in your generation who destroyed the economy by buying homes they had no business being in and couldn't afford. Nobody held a gun to their heads and forced them to sign those interest only loans. They wiped out OUR own hard earned nest eggs, along with home values of others their age, our small businesses and retirement accounts, acting like it was theirs to take and no problem. I wouldn't call that intelligent or mature. Don't expect us to spoil you like your neglectful parents did, this is the real world. Get your meds checked.

And what are you even doing here at this time of day? Still living off your parents? Get real or get lost.

I'm not a Republican. I dumped the Democrats.

haha! Kathleen Parker
writes that the GOP "has become increasingly beholden to an element that used to be relegated to wooden crates on street corners. … The GOP has surrendered its high ground to its lowest brows."

----------

I have always thought of bible-thumpers as lowbrows too.

I saw a few on a street corner with their megaphones and "REPENT!" signs (and the sandwich boards cluttered with scripture).

Is THIS the element conservatives & the GOP wish to cater to? The lowbrows & the bottom-feeders?

Park
We do have Crisis Pregnancy Centers that do help mothers.

buddists are not pro-sentiment
Buddists are amoral.

I know they are suppose to be, but that is the type of society that eventually develops in the majority of a population is Buddist.

If you are proud of your religion. Are you proud that wives and children are abused constantly in Thailand and China. Buddahism teaches that society norms are really none of your business (much like liberatarians), and while they state that they wouldn't do it in their personal life (they actually do) they have no problem allowing it in their community.

Coming soon to a theatre near you.......
complements of the Eurosocialists.....the normalization of neurotic behavior and its associated paraphilias to children. Let's just call it the continuation of adolescent suicidal ideation for science's sake.

Sweden: SM, Fetishes Not Mental illnesses
By The Associated Press
11.20.2008 9:00am EST
(Stockholm) Swedish health officials say they will remove transvestism, fetishism and sadomasochism from the country’s official list of diseases and mental disorders.

Send / ShareAdd CommentThe National Board of Welfare says labeling those aspects of sexual behavior and gender identity as disorders can add to prejudices in society. Gay and transgender rights activists welcomed this week’s decision.

The board’s director Lars-Erik Holm says he will raise the issue internationally when the World Health Organization starts the process of renewing its classifications.

Faith and Science
I always find it sad when I read that someone tries to present Creationism as an actual scientific theory. What makes a scientific theory a theory is that you can prove it false. Creationism on the other hand is faith based. Now there is noting wrong with believe in something that is faith based but there is no way of proving or disproving without assuming some preconceived articles of faith.

What differentiated faith from science is that you accept something that can’t be proved but in science you do not accept a theory until you tied like hell to prove it false and failed.

Did not some famous person once sat something render unto Caesar that which is Caesar and unto god that which belongs to him/her or it ?


Faith and science both have a place the question is which is better to use in forming public policy ? If the answer is faith when then whose faith triumphs over others.


THE WHOLE MEDIA WAS FOR BARRY!
NOT MANY DID THEIR HOME WORK,SO THEY WENT WITH CEORGE PORGEY THE ABC WONDER DOG!THEY WENT WITH J LINO DAVE THE JUNK MAIL MAN AND SNL WHO ALL PRAISED OBAMA!KATHLEEN MUST OF BEEN TALKING TO OPRAH,THE NEW AGE WOMEN WHO SAYS ALL ROADS LEAD TO GOD!OR MAYBE SHIRLEY MCCLAIN!OR BARB WALTERS!WHO KNOWS,FACT IS KATHLEEN VOTED FOR BHO!ON THE OTHER HAND SARAH PALIN IS RIGHT ON SHE BROUGHT LIFE TO THE GOP!

Denise
You just stated that evolution states how a species came about and changed- How can you state even that if it is just a theory?

Even evolutionists have their own theories about how man came about- some say there may have been other intelligent creatures in space that have planted the seed of humanity (Richard Dawkins stated that as a possibility); some say that we were part of the big BANG; some say we started from primordial soup--- so see, on your side as well there are different versions of your belief system.
Evolutionism/Humanism is just as much a religion- It is a religion based on the fact that man wants to worship himself rather than God.
Mao believed in evolution and Stalin believed in evolution and that was their religion.

George Washington believed in God and Abraham Lincoln believed in God and that was their religion.

How's That Working For You?
"Subject: The nail in the thesis's coffin
"There's already a party stressing economic conservatism nearly to the exclusion of social issues, and the last time I checked, our beloved Libertarians weren't garnering a great percentage of the vote."


Thank you

Regarding Kathleen Parker
saying, "one would hear precisely that … armband religion is killing the Republican Party."

As much as I have recently lost a lot of respect for Kathleen, she makes a valid point here imo. It is certainly not all evangelicals that are harming the party. Quite the contrary, I would want all true Christians to be members of the republican party to help it keep the faith. Where I agree with her is regarding what I consider a relatively small but vocal and influential group of arm band wearing religious bigots exemplified by the un-christian actions of people like Mike Huckabee. In short, true believers are an asset while those that simply use the church to further their own political ambitions should be shunned. I think it is the latter type Kathleen has a problem with although she may not be able to differentiate them. Let's call them the televangelists. Although there might be one or two good ones, most are in it merely for the money.

John
What makes Creationism any different than evolution as a theory? You just have been taught in your schools that evolution is the only way- you have only been taught that one viewpoint. Have you ever tried to look at the other side?
Go to answersingenesis.com and you might be surprised at some of the scientific evidence supporting the Creationist view or you might want to watch Expelled by Ben Stein.
Even Darwin towards the end of his life stated that he could not wholeheartedly believe in evolution.

Hmmm
"I have always thought of bible-thumpers as lowbrows too."

Funny, I've always thought the same thing about name-callers.

Economy = 63 percent
What part of 63 percent is confusing to those of you participating in this discussion? The economy was the major concern of voters in this election. Ask yourselves why 4 million voters stayed home?

The answer to that question has nothing to do with social issues, or what color or age of the GOP "face." In the past 8 years, Republicans failed to stop liberal socialist policies from destroying our economy. In fact, when the Republican Congress was in control, they lined up at the trough at gobbled with the best of the little pinko piggies.

Conservatives are supposed to represent less government interference in the lives of people. Conservatives are supposed to protect individual rights, the first being the right to own property and to be protected from those who would steal it. Instead, the conservatives governing during the past 8 years did the opposite. And, that's why they lost this election. Not because of any of the "social issues."

Truthhurts et al

what part of "created equal" (the D of I does not say born equal) do you not understand?

Oh, it's almost Christmas Season!
You guy's can get back to work on the "war on Christmas" by making sure that Target doesn't have generic "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greeting" signs on their store windows (Christ HAS to be mentioned!) and that Wal-Mart doesn't display an all-purpose "holiday tree".

Teaching Faith
Faith from Al

I agree that many people who believe in evolution have issues with where species came about. My main points were two:
One: evolution and religion are not exclusive
Two: teaching religion it belongs in religous or Sunday school not science class. That was my point about who's creation theory.

I believe in evolution and in God. Many find that difficult(including myself sometimes). They do not exist in the same sphere for me.

I was trained as a biologst and the science of biology as a whole is based largely around the theory. DNA evidence can track changes through species and between species over time. That is not hard to do. That change and accumulation of change over time is evolution.

It is simply a theory is all I am saying nothing more. There are still holes in it absolutely. No one is positive how "life", I mean all not just man came about on the planet.
It is used to explain a mechanism for life to change , adapt and grow on this planet. It does not have religious tones so many put to it.

It does not discredit being a baptist, Jewish ,Hindu etc unless you are an absolute literalist where the Bible or other holy texts are concerned.

Essential to the GOP?
Religion should not interpose itself in government but its constituents have a right to representation.

TH should no longer run pieces by Parker. She needs to be on meds for mental illness.

The sanctity of life should be protected, the helpless conceived life to the newborn and on stages being a no-brainer for protection. The death penalty for criminals having committed heinous offenses is an exception, assuming a fair trial. But liberals/feminists have turned this issue completely on its head: Abort at will and spare the serial killers and such. Is this insanity or what? The left also is more apt to take us on the path to fascism with BIG government dictating every aspect of the citizens’ lives.

Apart from the beautiful "sacredness of life argument", murder is still murder no matter how you try to weasel word it and abortion is taking a life. The law should have every right to treat this abomination as murder. Heck, in comparison, smoking in public places gets more indignation than aborting a living being...ridiculous! The bottom line is that it's a gross lack of responsibility for couples to conceive life if they did not intend to do so. Murdering an unborn just compounds the irresponsibility and that must not be sanctioned by society whatsoever.

If Mitt Romney and Ron Paul
are conservatives, then that's what I am. (They had differing opinions on some things, but I never agree with anyone 100%, either.)

I am glad they ran against the likes of Mike Huckabee, things became more clear in this election and many of my friends (younger and older) feel the same way. Conservatives will win more support if they focus on the Constitution/Bill of Rights, which includes religious freedom and the Right to Life. And stop pee testing people for jobs, are you kidding???

I am worried about the future. Anyone who bought property in the past two years who could afford it got screwed by those who couldn't. The lending laws used to be too strict and rejected young people who could afford their payments, especially if they were self employed and had the entrepeneurial spirit. Small businesses provide the most jobs in this country, approximately 85%, yet the lending laws punished them.

There needs to be a happy medium in lending for this country to succeed, along with personal responsibility and respect for other people's boundaries (including the unborn's and those of varying faiths) and private property (including businesses.)

Responsible, freedom loving people need to stick together.

The Golden Rule is a universal principle and a standard by which our Constitution is based (Yes it came from the Bible, too, but it is not necessarily religious in concept. It's the only way people can live in peace and maintain a stable society.) They used to teach it in schools, along with personal accountability and respecting the boundaries of others. If we don't have that, our society will crumble and we are seeing that now. Both sides have allowed groups in who violate it. I am an Independent now.

Denise
I appreciate your work as a biologist and I may not produce on this post all the fancy words as you do, but is it not also logical to produce the other argument instead of trying to stifle it? - think of the immense joy it would be for evolutional scientists against creational scientists for your side to make your case. For there are legitimate scientists on the creationist side as well who beg to differ with you on the fact that creationism should stay in the Sunday School. And they have supportive claims just as much as you have your claims on the evolution side.

ABORTION AND THE YOUNG

.....With the alliance of the NEA and Planned Parenthood setting up sex ed courses in middle schools is it any wonder that the young have a pro-choice inclination ...

.....The cure for this bias is to have teens watch a video of an abortion to see what actually happens in there ...these are available on the internet but will never be shown in a school or on TV ...

.....A beating heart starts at 28 days ...the abortion stops that beating heart and watching that on a video would be a greater deterence to teen age pregnancy, in my opinion, than any other method tried to date .....COLOSSUS

TIME TO GEAR UP FOR 2010 MIDTERM


....To prepare for the 2010 mid term elections Conservatives should frequent the following sites:

...1. http://www.republicanforareason.com ...this site will allow the exchange of ideas with the RNC and fellow Conservatives ...

...2. http://www.goptrust.com ...this site will allow Conservatives to get involved in current battle sites where Conservative values are under attack ...

...3. http://www.reaganaction.com ...this site will keep Conservatives informed on current events that are important to Conservatives ...

.....If Conservatives want to take our party and our country back we need to organize now and plan ahead ...the time to get to work is now .....COLOSSUS

Conservatism
in it's purest form wins the hearts and minds of the American people. Case in point for one is the Prop. 8 vote. No matter that it got defeated by the majority of voters it is still being debated and judges are still looking to try to overturn it at the first chance. The minority wins most often because it is the loudest and most outlandish. Evangelical Christian voters are often sighted as you describe and the accusations snowball because we are the silent majority. What needs to change is not our values or the base of our party it is that maybe we should show our outrage and disapproval for the moral decline in our great country.

Perhaps if we made total spectacles of ourselves in churches and carried stupid banners,yelled at cameramen,threw a few gays around,assaulted a few liberals in front of abortion clinics,or maybe rioted in front of the liberal media stations we would get the same coverage and "notoriety" as the gay movement,Pink,Black Panthers,and...well you get the picture.

I think Evolution and Creationism
should both be taught in science class. If I ran a school, I'd also have part of a sociology class involve the various major religions, so students can understand the basic tenets of what others believe in this world. Not for argument's sake, like who is right and who is wrong, but for education's sake. If someone's belief system can't handle that, how strong is it? If you want your children to go to a purely religious or purely humanistic school, with nothing else taught, then put them in one.

Flawed reasoning
Desperation among the GOP illuminati (the "party intelligentsia," as Limbaugh writes) has led to this off-base and unsupported argument that the conservative evangelical wing of the party has to be jettisoned like yesterday's news. Beg pardon, but I know many evangelical women (I am one myself) who are not "one-issue voters" yet never will subscribe to the progressive and "enlightened" view of life. And I do not live in a bubble.

Pro-Lifers are not single-issue voters
This is a lie conjured by the Left. Being a fervent pro-lifer, I describe it as Pro-life-and, or anti-abortion-plus. In other words, when a candidate is correct on this issue, THEN you move on to see how many other issues you agree with him/her. Litmus test? You bet. But we ARE concerned about other issues; its just that if you violently prevent the unborn baby from having life, then all the other more or less good programs or policies are meaningless-to that baby.

That having been said, I agree with Ken/PA and a few other posters that while internally, we should remain 'absolute' in our pro-life views, incrementalism is ok, restrictions like Ken's list (plus banning partial-birth abortion which he omitted, which has a substantial majority) has to be our political strategy.

Also, I agree with those who said that the fundamental problem is not having 'original intent/original meaning' judges. That is what will make the Obama regime excruciating--he will appoint the make it up as you go along judges.

Teaparty said
"I don't care if Kathleen or the GOP suits love me, I will vote my conscience"

That is music to a liberal's ears - go to it, don't change. Please.

To Faith
Faith

You are making assumptions.

You said “You just have been taught in your schools that evolution is the only way- you have only been taught that one viewpoint. Have you ever tried to look at the other side?

Actually I have looked at the other side. And I was not taught that schools that evolution is the only way at all. My education was in what many would consider excellent religious schools and some Jesuit universities that were extremely faith based where religion or theology were required courses.

They also taught science. But the two were not confused. Religion was religion and science was science. We rendered unto Caesar or Darwin his due and to the deity their due.

There is no contradiction that one can believe in a personal deity that “created” the evolutionary process to go into motion and yet state that there is no evidence to prove it but they take it on faith.


Now I willing to bet someone is thinking if not planning to respond that those Catholics are not true Christians . Forgoing the irony of that line of thinking that is precisely the problem that evangelicals and to a large extent republicans have. As long as you have the mentality that if you don’t believe exactly as you do your are not a true Christian or tuue American etc.

I was with McCain/Palin BTW up until they started calling everyone who did not agree with their ideas not true Americans and socialists. . The truly sad part is that at least for McCain he did not have faith in his own convictions to stand up to the extremist right.

It might have won if he did.

Re-valuing our elderly
would also help to save this country and give us a brighter and more successful future. What better mentor could a young person have than someone who has learned through life experience? Kicking them aside has not only promoted ignorance, it set younger people up for making more mistakes leading to failure.

Why not set up a govt program and pay retirees to mentor younger people who want to start their own businesses? That would lead to more tax dollars coming in and a stronger country for us all. Tutoring students in schools would also help them do better.

That is not exactly on topic, but I've been seeing a lot of posts by the likes of park that are just plain abusive, egotistical and stupid based on ageism. Discrimination based on people's physical characteristics is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It's also destructive, unfair, dishonest and hurtful.... not only to them, but to the rest of us. Anyone who does that has a problem and politics has nothing to do with it.


American woman
Why would anybody want to teach creationism in a science class? That would be like teaching the newborn-babies-are-picked-out-of-cabbages theory as equal to reproduction physiology.

I agree with you though, that comparative religion should be taught, religion is so interwoven with history, philosophy, and current events that I think every school should teach the religious concepts that drive history forward. (or backwards).


gop don't need evangelist type people
I'M SURPRISED DAVE WOULD STUP SO LOW AS TO RE-HASH WHAT KATHLEEN PARKER HAS TO SAY. SHE MAY CLAIM TO BE CONSERVATIVE,BUT I DOUBT IT.IF THE GOP DOESN'T NEED THE CHRISTIAN,THEN MAYBE THEY OUGHT TO DIS-BAN OR JOIN THE LIKES OF CHUCK HAGEL WHO IS NOTHING BUT A LIBERAL IN DISGUISE!

Faith said
"Evolutionism is just as much a religious belief as Christianity."

I find a statement like this so amazingly naive that it makes me wonder if you are a paid troll, hired to make religious conservatives look really strange and backward.

Even in the past two weeks scientists have found the chain of adaptive proteins that solve the basic argument of creation theory, that complex organisms couldn't evolve as they have.

Don't you see that this is the kind of statement that makes most people snigger when the word "fundamentalist conservative" is mentioned?


Baseball doc, Shelly, Cyn, Denise/MA
Baseballdoc,

Speaking as a Catholic Christian, your remarks about Jews were way off base, unworthy and unrepresentative of TH commenters.

Shelly, if you were serious that there are too many people, why don't you volunteer to be first in line for immediate euthanasia?

Cyn/TX: big question for GOP: how can we attract more conservative Hispanics like you?

Denise/MA: You call abortion part of "an adult's personal life." But that's exactly the question at the heart of the issue. Whether/how/with whom to have sex or not is "adult's personal life." After a new human life has been conceived, the state has an interest, a stake, in defending innocent life from being eliminated.

Mingus/GA: You speak about 'traditional institutional morality' saying 'i know better than thee, and i force thee..." But this is a better exact description for the pseudo-sophisticated liberals who force their secularist/agnostic/humanist (yes, Park/CO) on the rest of us.

Faith
I'll bet you also think that cave men rode around on dinosaurs.

No, don't tell me, it would be too depressing to face the fact that people still think this way, even in the 21st century.


DON 8:39 post You nailed it
All the fuss is really about taking God out of our lives. Christians need to stand firm not stand back. McCain received 57mi. votes. If he had come out strong on abortion, gay agenda, and judges instead of avoiding those topics on the trail , he would have won. Obama supports unlimited abortions, promised homosexuals his full support, and promised to appoint liberal judges. Obama talked about God more than McCain. No attacks from the left even when he spoke at a church on Father's day. Compare that to the attacks on Palin. Evil knows the real thing when it sees it and saw her as a threat.

The Bible tells us of a time when we would say evil is good and good is evil. Like today. And Parker, I know longer read her. Perhaps the worst kind of liberal is one who pretends to be conservative. Her true colors started to show after Saddleback.

JMartin to Mingus
"pseudo-sophisticated liberals who force their secularist/agnostic/humanist (yes, Park/CO) on the rest of us. "

------------------------------------

Your post reveals more about you than about the people you named, J - stating a point of view is NOT "forcing" any view on you. You might ask yourself why you are so paranoid, and clearly threatened by opposing ideas. Why don't you just come up with better ideas instead of seeing people who see the world differently as your mortal enemies?

Also, I haven't read all the posts here, but I didn't see any posts by Park that promoted secularism, humanism, or atheism.

What are you so afraid of?

Religious Conservatives are Essential.
Ask Bush-2004 & 2008. Without the evangelicals he would have lost easily. He understood the importance of their vote when he was just a casual observer on the campaign trail with Reagan. "Aborting" abortion would be the gravest mistake ever made by the GOP. Please understand, Obama did not win on his own. The money he was able to accumulate set records (650 million), along with the MSM, Hollywood (W. by Oliver Stone) and a 30 minute spot in primetime was more than enough. Factor in Oprah and he should have won by over 70 percent of the popular vote. Economic downturn, sitting president etc. Should have been a lock for Mr. Obama but 52.7% to 46% popular vote win is paltry when compared to money spent and media coverage. The message and the messengers are fine.The GOP needs to just regroup and get back to the basics.

Party time
I keep hearing the same recurring theme from social conservatives: the Republican part is not conservative enough.

You Nitwits. If the GOP will not meet your expectations, form your own party! What a bunch of whiny twerps. If you don't like the way things are going, form you own party and do it right. You have tried to graft your faith onto an unworkable fiscal policy and then complain when you lose.

Form you own party. Spell out specifically what you want. Put your agenda in front of the people. Or are you afraid God has abandoned you? Onward, you christian soldiers.

Gerry
"All the fuss is really about taking God out of our lives"

One of the aspects of Christian fundamentalism that I find fascinating is the love of martyrdom; everyone who is not a literal, all consuming christian is out to get you, I always suspect that you secretly wish we could go back to the Nero/Roman collisseum days so you could act out your most cherished fantasies.

I swear, Gerry, my entire life I have never cared a rat's a$$ what anybody believed so long as they kept it from infringing on my rights and freedoms. You can handle snakes as far as I'm concerned, just keep them in your own homes.

For people say they want to be left alone, you spend alot of time pushing yourselves into the mainstream culture.

Reporters in the media
have a bad habit of allowing people who claim to speak for one group of people by slapping a label on themselves to get away with it. They do not. It has become a racket to get money and it's out of control.

Evangelicals did not all support the same candidate in this election, anymore than women who believe in female equality or blacks did. That's a fact.

"We The People" are individuals who can speak for ourselves, respect that and allow us to, rather than talking over the top of us all the time, claiming to know what we think, marginalizing us, or allowing one group or another to do all the talking.

We could use less reporters and party spinmeisters and more average citizens on these news programs, that is why Joe the Plumber was so popular.

I have many, many Christian friends
but they don't consider themselves persecuted, they respect science, (many of them are already scientists), they don't use their churches as political machines, they don't preach to me. I respect them, and I respect their ability to be loyal to their faiths and their culture without confusing the two.

LMoore, if you are intelligent
you will comment on the issue instead of just sinking *solely* to a personal attack and abuse with no quantifying statements. This is just another indication of what our rotten school systems have produced. Bullies vs thinkers.

The Fortunes of The GOP
This election stripped Bushes, Doles, Clintons and McCain of a good bit of their political power, so SOME good came of it.

As for the Fortunes of The GOP?!?!?! Let ACORN Hussein Obama appoint Leftist Thugs to his Cabinet. Let Nasty Piglosi get Waxman elected to a Committee Chairman Position. Let Leftist Libtards spew their IDIOCY. Let ALL The Libtards, Heathens, Gays, Greens and ALL THE OTHER HUMAN WASTE continue to DISPLAY THEIR IGNORANCE for all the world to see. Sunlight is The BEST Disinfectant, the MORE these LOSERS are IN THE SUNLIGHT/SPOTLIGHT, the SOONER the DISINFECTING will commence.

The overreaching has ALREADY started, get some popcorn and a coke and watch. It WILL be hilarious to watch!

Creationism isn't the same thing
as picking babies out of cabbages. fyi That has been proven false with facts.

Creationism is a major belief and theory, it should be presented along with other major theories in re: the origin of life. Embryos are also the beginning of life, according to science and the dictionary, they are not warts, tumors or hang nails.

It is not the teachers' job to teach theories or beliefs as facts and any good science teacher knows the difference.

I do not think we descended from apes, they have never found a missing link, except in their dreams. But that is not to say natural selection didn't have a hand in our physical evolvement to survive or that God was not behind that or the Big Bang, on the other hand. We could have come from another planet, for all we know, and maybe God created that planet, too.

What we do know is that we didn't come from cabbages.

GOP Clean House!
Kathlees Parker is just another undercover liberal who attempted to trounce Sarah Palin, and is attempting to ensure the GOP turns into a 3rd party by dividing it.

My goodness, we have RINO's politicians, we have Dem operatives and liberals IN the Republican Party itself at EVERY level. Is it so surprising that we have liberal commentators and pundits infesting the GOP?

How is it Kathleen Parker even has a voice on Townhall anymore? Look at the ratings she's received over the last few months. She should be a commentator on the Huffington Post or the Daily Kos.

Wake up people!

can you narrow it?
narrowing down any one piece of the leftist illuminati or the GOP seems to not be effective. Is there truly only one segment at any time that is most important?

Kathleen Parker and her oogedy boogedy
is that a dance? She delegitimizes herself using that terminology. This woman is not too bright or honest, I noticed.

LMoore, my apologies
I was responding to your attack on a poster and didn't see your other posts.

Huckabee is a drag on the GOP
do not lump all evangelicals in with him!!!! Just because he pretends to speak for them all, it does not make it true. Pay attention to his behavior for further information.

Teaching Faith
Faith: I agree with John from RI. The two do not have to be exclusive unless you are a biblical literalist. By this I mean the earth is 7-10K years old. Because then evolution would conflict impossibly timewise.

What exactly is the part of evolution that bothers you exactly?

Teaching creationism as a science is hard. The basic time and few theories of creationism I have heard timewise don't work. Thousands vs billions of years geologically are hard to get to agree.

Also which creationism would be taught? As I said there are many versions. Intelligent design is vague enough that it allows for creation, but it will also allow for evolution if you take it broadly and vaguely enough. It simply implies there is a greater guiding force(God if you wish) that is guiding the whole show.

Disagree
I respectfully disagree - I have said for years that if the GOP would drop opposition to abortion from the platform, it would have come very close to killing off the Democrats once and for all in the early part of this decade.

I know so many single-issue female voters who COULD be swayed to the GOP. And the abortion issue kills the GOP, particularly at the local levels (stupid women in Washington state don't get that we have the right to abortion written into the State constitution, yet they still blindly vote for Dems for everything from Governor down to dog-catcher).

10 Commandments, Golden vs Jungle Rules

"When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 'Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?' He said to him, '“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.’

Matthew 22:34-40

So.... what's the problem??? Bring back the Golden Rule in school and stop stirring up unnecessary dissension.

As far as the motto of the Free Spirit goes, it's "Do what you will and hurt no one." Not, "I'm going to do whatever I want, no matter how dishonest, unfair or who I hurt." That is mentally deranged and abusive, it's how criminals think.

And yes, we can legislate morality. I cannot walk into your house, steal all of your possessions, rape your children and chop your head off, just because I feel like it. Use those heads and stop playing suckers for left wing groups who are exploiting you.

Parker and those like her...
are complete morons if they think that the Republican party will grow stronger by eliminating religious people from their base. There is a small fringe group of evangelicals who appear to not believe in a separation of church and state, and that only those who belong to and believe in enforcing their religious views on the nation are the only people fit for office, but the vast majority of evangelicals are solid conservative voters who support the republican party. ( At least when the party acts like it is conservative.)

If the Repulicans expel all Christians from their party, they will be lucky to get more votes than Ralph Nader in the next presidential election.

JMartin from MA
Hi, cold enough today? I'm outside Boston freezing my you know what off...

On to the point...I wasn't specifically talking about abortion per say more the tendancy some of the evangelical right has to tell me not only what is moral,but that I am absolutely evil if I see nuances or disagree with a position they hold. Also their need to legislate such beliefs.

I could name many gay marriage/unions etc. which is argued from both ends.

You are absolutely correct the state has a vested interest in protecting life. Abortion in particular is a gray argument for most.

I think most agree(myself included) that no you may not abort an 8mo pregnancy. The issue becomes far more gray say if the mother's health is endangered, raped etc. Also if the child has a terminal genetic disease say like Tay-Sachs were the death is by slow mental retardation and there is no hope or treatment at this time.

Any party or for that matter
person who ignores the injustice of abortion is not worthy of a respected position to govern.

That there are so many misguided people in this world only shows how misguided the world and the people in it are.

Period.

As the good Book has always said.

Origins is a Philosophy

The real question is not how old or young the earth is but the origin of energy, time, space and motion.

Energy can be changed from one form to another but cannot be created or destroyed therefore is always conserved. The potential of energy is less than the original state.

What is the relationship of energy and time?

Kinetic energy is motion which introduces time.

Geological time is a mixture of absolute time and relative time.

Man creates nothing but frame of reference and draws conclusions based on observation.

When was the origin of energy, time, space and motion?

What was the source of energy, time, space and motion?

Here are the possible solutions for the origin of energy, time, space and motion.

1) energy, time, space and motion do not exist.

2) energy, time, space and motion spontaneously occurred from nothing.

3) energy, time, space and motion are eternal.

4) energy, time, space and motion were created by intelligence.

Without mixing any of the aforementioned, cite a fifth explanation of the origin of energy, time, space and motion?

Since NONE of these positions can be proven, they are all philosophies and should be taught equally in a philosophy class (all have equal merit based on ones perspective) - NOT a science class.

Denise
I am a biblical literalist- I do believe that God created the world in seven days- Genesis 1:1
Job 38:4- "Where wast thou when I (God) laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who laid the corner stone thereof;
12- "Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to his place;
18- "Hast thou percieved the breadth of the earth? Declare if thou knowest it all.
22- Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; To cause if to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

I could go on and on how the Bible is full of scientific knowledge based on the fact of a Creator. And this knowledge has been passed down for thousands of years where as Darwin's knowledge was only acknowledge for a hundred years.

Evolution still has not produced evidence like -
Who created the atom? Where is the link of a fossil showing a fish in the process of turning into a mammal? Or where are evidences of species turning into another species today? I agree that a dog or any other creature can over several years adapt within its own species (because of climate or because the dominate gene in that species overides the recessive gene). But if you would be so kind to give me the evidence of a species evolving into another species I would be grateful.

Denise et al

When considering time or age - there is something that should be considered - apparent age.

If God created Adam as a man - then if one could have watched the process, how old would Adam appear? The same question applies to other created objects.

The real question about the singularity of the 'Big Bang' is NOT whether it happened or not - but rather what and when was the origin of energy as causal, space for it to occur, motion for it to move and last but not all, the materials for which the 'Big Bang' used to make the 'Big Bang'?

Man should not teach 'Origins' as science but rather a philosophic endeavor.

retired geek
Then you would have to say that the evolutionism is a philosophical belief as well, because it is not based on scientific law- it is based on theory.
In the dictionary it states that theory is a PROPOSED explanation or conclusion. Also it states that theory is a PHILOSOPHICAL presentation of a natural law.
Sounds like evolution is also based on philosophy to me.
So why can both evolution and creationism be discussed. Are you afraid? I don't mind discussing both sides. Both sides have to have FAITH to believe in.
Like I said before Evolution is just as much a religion as Christianity or any other religion.

error
I did not mean to put retired geek- I was speaking to Denise

Evangelicals overreached
Evangelicals rightfully believe they are the main force behind getting George W. Bush into office.

Unfortunately, feeling flush with power, they began to assume they had the right to dictate all party priorities, positions and candidates.

I believe many Evangelicals saw the Mitt Romney candidacy as a threat to their perceived hegemony in the GOP.

Mitt tried to run as a economic conservative, yet the Evangelical caucus dragged him into a pointless debate on religious issues. Most of which were pointless to Presidential evaluation.

Every GOP candidate was measured against an inviolable yardstick of social issues. Abortion was the main point on which any acceptable candidate had to have a pure and perfect record from the day of their own conception.

I agree that the sanctity of life is paramount in all of our moral choices. And murder is last thread to humanity which must not be broken. But the vast majority of people do not spend their day contemplating the issue.

The economy however is considered by every American each and every day. For some it is an obsession borne out of necessity when faced with unemployment, sickness and providing for the needs of home and family.

Social conservatives may deny this, but Reagan success was not fueled by a religious awakening among the American people, but rather, a vision of economic prosperity and hope driven by lower taxes and less regulation, less government intrusion into our lives and more personal freedom.

And this is the principle upon which the GOP came into power and wielded much influence over the past three decades. And this is the principle to which we must return.


Kathleen Parker,
Bob, and quite frankly Margaret Hoover and Arnold, need to get the boot from the party. Laziness breeds stupidity and these people are the poster children of it. People like these portend to be deep thinkers but in reality they are not.

As to the Evangelicals I think they are valuable and important but I think they need to re-think their game plan. They could be rather useful in the education field and fill in quite a lot of gaps that public schools, as well as private schools, leave out. Education is the key to winning.

On a side note I would not mind abortion so much, since people have a right to burn in hell if they want to, but I do mind that there is no room for compromise on both sides. You have a right to hell but you don't have right to drag anyone with you. We are a nation of extremes! Always have been. Partial Birth Abortion is not only reprehensible but extreme and should be totally banned.

Mr.B of CA
Well said!

Faith et al

I am a recovered Humanist/Atheist from a long line of the same.

What always bothered me as a Humanist/Atheist was not whether or not evolution was a scientific fact, but rather what was the origin of energy.

My little female Bichon Frise (dog) whom my wife and I adore, is a descendant of a wolf.

Hard to believe but, I have never seen evidence of a dog being a descendant from a butterfly.

I personally believe that God is the creator of all that exists.

My point is that NO credible theory of the origin of energy can be scientifically proven correct and never will be in the paradigm of time.

If one defined faith, as the evidence of things hoped for that will remain unprovable by man, than all four possible scenarios I described in an earlier post would be 'Faith Based'.

Some say 'Faith' is a religious term only but we have 'Faith' the bridge will hold us and our car when we drive across it.

The chair we are sitting on, is really comprised of materials that are traveling at the speed of light and are Atomic or Sub Atomic particles.

Either energy does not exist,
or
energy is eternal,
or
energy came about spontaneously from nothing,
or
energy was created from intelligence.

Evolution as the answer to the origin of energy is meaningless.

Armband religion
First of all, I don't belong to an armband religion and I'm certainly not religious in any way shape or form. I don't burn candles, recite chants, or do any rituals. I'm a Christian, which means I profess I have one Lord, Jesus Christ. He is my savior, and the last time I checked, my constitutional right to worship him freely is unabated. However, in a nation growing more secular and narcissistic by the hour, I wouldn't be surprised if that freedom some day is abridged, restricted, or possibly banned. The framers of our constitutional said "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Religion is the institutional operation of the church, meaning the believers, within the state. It is, however, not the faith itself. Christianity is a way of life, period. It was not meant to be entombed in a building, but a social engagement between people declaring their love for one Lord, one God. Early Christians used the fish as their secret symbol to reveal themselves to another Christian. Maybe this what Kathleen Parker would prefer? That we go underground just as early Christians did who feared death and reprisal. Now we're referred to by other conservatives as that "archaic thinking" within the Republican Party. Believing in a Christian God is archaic? These individuals obviously know serious Christians, collectively as Evangelicals, will not compromise on matters of faith. Sitting squarely in the middle of the road is abortion. We won't create a fork around it, and be pressured into relenting. If the GOP decides to "give in" on this issue, then they're giving up on us, not vice versa. We will not falter when it comes to our faith.

McCain lost because his message
was, quite frankly, he's a pushover to Democrat ideals.

Obama's message was muddy; but repeated ad nauseum.

In a high school civics class back in the 70s, we played a game called "See How They Run". The winner picked a 2-word slogan. All of the losers picked 4 word or more.

"Hope" and "Change" vs. the old guy that couldn't beat GWB and beat himself to death in a SNL cartoon that was replayed on the Comedy Channel almost every month for 6 years. Seems clear like crystal to me...

The foundation of this country
Christian principles and peoples are the foundation for the freedoms this country enjoys.

The Republican Party must enthusiastically embrace Social and Economic Conservatives and quit cowering to all the nicknames liberals call us.

Why Republicans don't see that true Conservatism wins???

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/we-demand-true-conserva tive-leadership.html

FAITH IS ABOUT JESUS
CHRISTIAN LOOKING FOR AND USING TITLES HAVE A JESUS PROBLEM. I BELIEVE IN THE WORD OF GOD, THE GOODNEWS GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, AND THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST. I FOOLOW THE WILL OF GOD, NO RELIGIOUS LEADER WILL DIRECR ME TO HELL.
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY MUST CHECK ITSELF AND RETURN TO ITS CONSERVATIVE BASE. NOT THE AGENDA OF A RELIGIOUS LEADER BUT TO TRUE CONSERVATISM.
BIBLE READING, GOD FEARING, FLAG WAVING, CONSTITUTION BELIEVING, APPLE PIE EATING, BBQ COOKING, ICE TEA DRINKING, FOOTBALL LOVING REDBLODED AMERICANS.

Mr B. I hope you are correct

I do not think that America has ever been in the position we are now.

This age where approximately half of the population is paying for the other half to live is new to America.

Without debating the pros and cons of Social Security and all of the social programs in place - this is a new age.

The baby boomers, many if not most of whom are conservative, are now or will be drawing 'Benefits'.

Many who were NOT planning on assistance have been devastated by the recent financial breakdown.

America is already a Collectivist Nation and it will be very difficult to turn it around.

The tipping point is when 55% of Americans are totally dependent on the 45% who are working for sustenance and medical care.

This may have been our last election that could have turned things around.

Barack Obama and his followers believe the more crisis the better for their plans.

GOP and conservatives
AMEN. If the GOP ever deserts the Prolife issue then I for one will take my vote to the Libertarian. McCain's prolife voting record along with Sarah Palin made me want to vote GOP this year. I shudder to think where Prolife Christian conservatives will go if they are kicked out of the GOP like they have been from the Democratic Party.

It is easily argued
Socially, Pychologically, Philosophically, Morally, Politically, and theologically that abortion is wrong.

There must be something that keeps people supporting it.

Faith from AL
Speciation:The general definition(even this has exceptions and is very loose) is two individuals can produce fertile offspring who can continue as such etc etc.

Wolf to dog both are clearly related but are not the same species. They are considered seperate species. They are close enough in DNA that you can still interbreed them, but in nature they do not interbreed as a general rule.

Galapogos(sp??)tortoises: Sorry if the spelling is wrong. They call these sub-species who are on the way to becoming different species. Can still interbreed but naturally will not due to mate selection and geography. Offspring are viable but do not occur naturally from what they have observed barring rare exceptions(if even).

Tiger, lion. You can interbreed a lion and tiger. They do not naturally and they are different species. The offspring of such is sterile, but the mix can produce offspring. Those offspring are not fertule. The DNA however is still close enough to allow for live offspring though the parents are considered different species.


Change within species pepper moth during industrial revolution went from about 98% white to the reverse 98% black/grey due to selection by predation.

Energy creation, atomic creation etc. I agree how or why an atom occurs would be explained from science on a purely physical basis. Physics is not my expertise as a whole. In fact generally speaking if you view the universe as a whole system it shouldn't form because the universe tends to chaos according to rules in physics. I am sure there are quantum or general rules that apply. On a purely theoretical basis I won't pretend to remember them from physics 101. Energy can neither be created or destroyed only converted according to physics from physics 101.

Without evangelicals, the GOP is dead
Without evangelicals, the GOP would simply go back to its country club irrelevancy.

Abortion is an issue that cannot be closeted.

The issue pits a culture of life versus a culture of death.

Denise
Still a wolf and a dog are in the same family Candidae. Even though diverse they are still both canines- I believe that God created one type of dog, but built into that dog genetically to have the ability to change and adapt over many years- especially due to environmental changes and to dominant genes (like if that creature had a dominant longhaired gene, it would overide the recessive gene). This seems to me to be more logical then a fish jumping over to be a dog. Or a Chimpanzee jumping over to be human.
Look what happened in England around the Victorian Age- they were able to create many versions of dogs in a matter of a few years--- Where have we seen scientists with all their vast knowledge and technology be able to create a cross between a pig and a donkey (well except for the republicans who now have become a cross between a elephant and a donkey)?
Like the moth, even though there some variations it still stayed a moth.
Humans have adapted over several years also- look at how some people were shorter years ago then now- we still are humans we have just adapted because of genes and environment.
Give me evidence of something that evolved into an entirely different species- where is the evidence?

Persecution
Having and having read Mr. Limbaugh's book, I'm sure there's a connection somewhere between his column and that book (but I don't have the book in front of me as I scribble this note).

If all the evangelicals abandoned or were abandoned by the GOP, what, if any, group would replace them? Will the GOP simply split into two (which is how new political parties come into being)?

Regardless of whether or not one thinks abortion is a or the fundamental issue, it's not going away as much as some would like it), for the USA is not a post-Christian entity, much like modern Europe, where abortion is a non-issue. But there are those who would like this country to accelerate its pace with regard to it becoming no different than those countries across the Atlantic.


My last post
Ok I am sure everyone is ready to get rid of me on this post.
I have to say to Denise I appreciate your posts, but my question is why not give the creationist viewpoint a chance? I am not on here saying everyone has to believe in God, but on the evolution side there are no clear answers- Evolution cannot perfectly answer the question Why are the planets perfectly aligned? How does the eye work with such accuracy? How does the baby inside the womb work hand in hand with the mothers own body? Who made the universe?
Science is always a question- One day you think you got it then the next day you don't- so why not let another line of thought enter the debate in Schools and colleges without these people being ostrasized.
By the way some of our greatist scientists believed in God- Kepler, Copernicus, Newton, Pascal, and others.
Science is about faith also- Many of these scientists had faith that something would be what they thought and many found new discoveries, like gravity.
When we attempt to close the minds of others to form a certain thought, then we ourselves become arrogant and close minded. Science is about discovery not limitations.