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Tuesday, August 12, 2008
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
The 'Making Abortion Rare' Hoax
by David Limbaugh
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


ABC reports that the group "Democrats for Life," whose title gives new meaning to "oxymoronic," decided last week not to press the Democratic Party to restore a life-tolerant "conscience clause" to its party platform. Isn't it time the party quit this charade that it wants to make abortion "rare"?

The "conscience clause," which appeared in the 1996 and 2000 platforms, at least paid lip service to tempering the platform's express support of a woman's "right to choose," stating: The "Democratic Party is a party of inclusion. We respect the individual conscience of each American on this difficult issue, and we welcome all our members to participate at every level of our party."

But the party ended all pretense of inclusion in 2004 by replacing the "conscience clause" with a statement that Democrats "stand firmly against Republican efforts to undermine" abortion rights. And despite the obviously halfhearted efforts of Democrats for Life, the clause will also be absent from the 2008 platform.

As Democrats for Life's Director Kristen Day asked during the 2004 platform debate: "So what are they saying, that because we want to protect the rights of the unborn, our own party says we're automatically Republicans? This has to be one reason that our party is having trouble appealing to many people in churches."

Amen, Kristen. But perhaps instead you ought to be asking yourself why you are still a Democrat and why you gave up in 2008 with barely a whimper. Just how committed can you and your organization possibly be to protecting the lives of the unborn when you shamelessly roll over on the issue that presumably matters the most to you?

Actually, "shamelessly roll over" doesn't do justice to what happened. Kristen Day told ABC News, "We decided not to offer an amendment because we are working with the party to try to solve this issue." What? That's like saying they'll begin to fight after conceding defeat.

Besides, just what incentive do the overwhelmingly dominant pro-abortion forces in the party have to work with Day when they succeeded, effortlessly, in inserting the following language in the platform?

"The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to choose a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay, and we oppose any and all efforts to weaken or undermine that right."

No mincing words there. "Strongly and unequivocally regardless of ability to pay oppose any and all efforts to weaken or undermine." By removing the word "Republican" before "efforts," they even closed the loophole that might allow Democratic renegades such as Day to try to "undermine" the Democrats' commitment to throwing babies under the bus. And with the language "regardless of ability to pay," they've made clear their support for taxpayer-funded abortions.

This party has the temerity to pretend it is inclusive and wants to reduce abortions yet bans any dissent on the issue! It doesn't even want pro-life people in the party -- unless they stay in the closet. Day and her group apparently value party membership so highly that they've dutifully agreed to march quietly back into the closet.

For insight into what Democratic honchos mean when they cynically hold themselves out as advocates of reducing abortion, we must turn to the words of the Rev. Jim Wallis. He is the author of "God's Politics" and an outspoken proponent of the idea that Democrats should reclaim "values voters" because their policies are more in line with Christian truth, which assertion is only slightly less incoherent than the label "Democrats for Life."

In pushing for an "abortion reduction" plank in the Democratic Party platform, Wallis said: "You don't have to take a different stance about a woman's right to choose. But you begin with the need for reducing abortion dramatically."

Why reduce abortion if it is not immoral, Rev. Wallis? Well, read on because he answers that very question. "Taking abortion seriously as a moral issue would help Democrats a great deal with a constituency that is already leaning in their direction on poverty and the environment. There are literally millions of votes at stake."

Aha. So it's about votes, not about protecting the innocent unborn. As if thinking people would have concluded otherwise.

But how can we reasonably expect a party, whose platform is supposed to mirror the agenda of its presidential candidate, to adopt anything but a "strong and unequivocal" statement promoting abortion when that candidate, in a moment of spontaneous candor, said that if his daughters made a "mistake," he wouldn't "want them punished with a baby"?

Are pro-life Obama supporters so selfishly hooked on a feeling -- the euphoric state of Obamamania -- that they'll back Obama and his party in the most immoral crusade since slavery? It appears so.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Oh my God!! Another SOCIAL CON
column!!!


Come, my pro-life and anti-gay brothers and sisters! Let's "discuss" for the 9,567th time this year about why abortion is bad - and why homosexuality is evil (and a choice). Oh, wait. This column is devoted entirely to the little life in the womb. He FEELS my brothers and sisters. That little embryo KNOWS the evil of man! He can INTUIT the harm coming his way. He SCREAMS!!


Now, listen, I know some of you are TIRED. I know we've already discussed these social issues 9,566 times. But we need to convince ourselves and our country that we are doing the LORD'S work!

Then, after this, we can all move on to the column of that weasel Edward's cheating on his poor beautiful cancerous wife and discuss how this will be a big fat PLUS for the McCain campaign in November!


May Jesus be with you, my pro-life, anti-gay brethren! Stay strong. We are doing the Lord's work. You will surely be rewarded in the NEXT life (where sweet sweet angels will sing to you with their harps of gold!)

Will



Will
you really have a problem, however you have proven over and over again, homosexuals are
cases of arrested development..I've raised 6 kids and it never failed..the terrible twos
always demonstrated spectacular tantrums demanding their own way..homosexuals are no different. (How do I know? My adopted son
was SEDUCED at age 14 by an older homo who himself had been seduced by an older homo, etc
etc etc. And I saw the same tantrums when in his 20's. He's 40 now and struggling with alcoholism and suicidal thoughts, hates his
life and his past and has repented and is struggling to leave this not so very gay life)

Yes you are correct that baby DOES try to escape the weapon of his execution. And Obama
ghoulishly endorses and supports efforts to torture these babies to death, the most egregious is the so called partial birth execution and the infanticide by abusive neglect of those babies that survive other forms of late term abortion. All abortions are an abomination.

One other thing Will, Be NOT decieved God is not mocked. Your last paragraph is an example
of my first. I pity you, you want so badly for
us to accept and condone your lifestyle, and
we Christians cannot because we care enough
about you not to want you condemning yourself
to eternity without God. You cannot parse the words of scripture, He loves you too much to
encourage you in an unhealthy lifestyle both
physically and spiritually.

Words have meaning
Obama's words are that the first thing he will do as President is to sign the right to choice bill that will bring back partial birth abortion. Since he is in favor also of live birth abortions here is a site that will tell you exactly what Obama thinks about abortion. It made my head explode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIdbYjmbFzo&feature=user

Taking an extreme view is not right
In an ideal world abortion would not happen.

But rape, incest, and deformity are not ideal.

And allowing parents to provide a pregnant teenager with an abortion is unfortunate but necessary.


But the abortion of a viable fetus is murder.

To say never or always is the problem with this debate.

Obama and Dr. Mengela- Perfect together
Under Hussein Che Obama the Marxist Islamofacist Democrats will allow abortions up to and just before birth at 9 months or if the fetus survives the abortion procedure.

You may even see lanquage inserted that may specify a specific race or religion other than Muslim Obama's.

actually
the words: It doesn't even want pro-life people in the party -- unless they stay in the closet.

were very prophetic in this column. Back in the day when abortion protests were numerous, the anti life crowd was mostly homosexual. Of course, they NEEDED abortion to be legal in order for the slippery slope to lead to their agenda of same sex marriage. abortion/homosexuality connection :
Kennedy’s rise to the top of California’s power structure is just the tip of the iceberg. Openly lesbian California Democratic legislators Sheila Kuehl and Carole Migden, along with openly homosexual Mark Leno, have led the fight against any restrictions on abortion while initiating a slew of pro-homosexual measures, including full-blown “gay marriage,” promoting homosexuality in the schools, and a law prohibiting the state from doing business with firms that do not subsidize homosexual relationships.
http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=479


Choice - to kill or to kill.
At least now, they can drop the charade that pretends that "choice" is a good. One can think of of a million grave evils in history where someone made a "Choice" - few are comparable to the murder of the most innocent of us all - the unborn. Murder if you will, democrats, but stop pretending that such evil is a "good."

HEY KILLERS, PAY ATTENTION
WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is graphic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


A more recently developed method here is the partial birth abortion, also called "brain suction" or "D&X" methods.

- These are done after 4 or 5 months.

- 80% of babies are normal.

- Most babies are viable.

This is like a breech delivery. The entire infant is delivered except the head. A scissors is jammed into the base of the skull. A tube is inserted into the skull, and the brain is sucked out. The now-dead infant is pulled out.


Everyone who doesn't know the Lefties
are big liars hasn't been paying attention.

The real reason there are so many on the left calling for the blood of the innocents is because they are seeking "ZPG" (Zero Population Growth) or worse "NPG" (Negative Population Growth).

I am convinced that many Lefties hate the human race, and are working as hard as they can to keep us from reproducing.

I think that a lot of people on the Left felt like outsiders as children, and perhaps felt picked on. This makes them hate children, and helps them to justify their anti-child positions.

Over the weekend, one of the Leftie fools who posts here claimed that women have the right to kill their babies because the baby takes over the woman's body and uses it for its own purposes (bwooooo-ha-ha!).

What a paranoid delusion!

The bizarre thing is that they crowd themselves together into the cities (which tend to vote Left), and then look around and imagine that the world is overpopulated. This also help them to justify their evil stance!

truetolife
Your analysis is very sharp. Not many people will see the connection here in casual observation, but it is good that you pointed it out.

The Bible says that people in the "Last Days" will have their consciences seared, like being burned with a hot iron. This is what happens when we keep advocating things that are abhorrent to the laws of God. Our consciences become seared. When something gets seared, it becomes insensitive. The nerves are deadened and we no longer feel the pain of a prick.

God pricks our conscience when we engage in evil, in an effort to turn our hearts back to good. When the heart is seared, we are oblivious to that prick and continue on from bad to worse. By supporting abortion, homosexuals have helped to sear the hearts of many people and made them insensitive to the prick that God inflicts warning us of the evil of homosexuality.

Making abortion rare?
What a crock.

On the extermination of blacks:

Margaret Sanger, founder of what is now Planned Parenthood was herself a BIGOT. Her clinics were purposefully targeted in, or adjacent to black neighborhoods... for a reason.

And if you doubt Sanger was a BIGOT.....

Margaret Sanger
"Founder of Planned Parenthood"
http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm
"In Her Own Words"

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race
(Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)

On blacks, immigrants and indigents:
"...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization, referring to immigrants and poor people.

On sterilization & racial purification:
Sanger believed that, for the purpose of racial "purification," couples should be rewarded who chose sterilization. Birth Control in America, The Career of Margaret Sanger, by David Kennedy, p. 117, quoting a 1923 Sanger speech.

On the right of married couples to bear children:
Couples should be required to submit applications to have a child, she wrote in her. "Plan for Peace." Birth Control Review, April 1932

On the purpose of birth control:
The purpose in promoting birth control was "to create a race of thoroughbreds," she wrote in the Birth Control Review, Nov. 1921 (p. 2)

On the rights of the handicapped and mentally ill, and racial minorities:
"More children from the fit, less from the unfit -- that is the chief aim of birth control." Birth Control Review, May 1919, p. 12

On the extermination of blacks:
"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon

konniebay posted this on Carpenter's
thread..

http://townhall.com/Columnists/AmandaCarpenter/2008/08/12/o bama_lied_about_abortion_record?page=full&comments=true

Reply # 3
Date: Aug 12, 2008 - 2:30 AM EST
Subject: This will make your head explode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIdbYjmbFzo&feature=user

I only hope that Rick Warren NAILS Marxist Obama with this during the "Showdown at Saddleback."

elizabeth
So what you are saying is "Two wrongs do make a right."?

I believe it is time
for those of us who wish to protect the least among us to rise up and refuse to pay a dime in taxes until this barbaric murder of babies is outlawed in this country.

The Constitution guarantees life and that includes the yet unborn IMO because they will be Americans, they will be people and not puppies or kittens. That's why these murderers promote the use of any description other than baby....

They hide behind Roe like slave owners hid behind Dred Scott, both are bad laws passed by bad people for their own miserable agendas. It is time to demand this law be overturned by defunding the gov't that allows it.


Another Marxist Obama lie exposed
Index of Documents regarding Obama Cover-up on Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Bill

http://www.nrlc.org/ObamaBAIPA/index.html




Anne
Good morning. School is about to start, so i won't get to spend so much of my mornings looking for my first chuckle of the day. Rats. Its always nice to see you and Vic and so many other great posters.
The poor get poorer and the rich get richer becasue the rich do what makes them rich and the poor embrace what makes people poor. And then the poor vote for people who install the policies that ensure they will be poor. Go figure.

Stephen '08
Stephen should be in politics. No strong stance and rhetoric for both sides.

Pistol: I think you pretty much NAILED

it!

And it isn't any more difficult or complicated than that!!!


And, good morning to you ... and good luck at school. :-)

And will has commented 9,567 times!
I wonder why????

Barack Obama and BAIPA

"Let me tell you a story. In 2002, President Bush signed into law a bill titled the "Born Alive Infants Protection Act" (BAIPA). This law was necessary because, believe it or not, infants were being born alive during attempted abortions and then, ancient Spartan style, left to die. Jill Stanek wrote about this last year, saying:

"As a nurse at an Illinois hospital in 1999, I discovered babies were being aborted alive and shelved to die in soiled utility rooms. I discovered infanticide."

The act was so vile that even staunch abortion advocates would not oppose BAIPA. Stanek tells us that it passed the Senate by unanimous vote, garnering the support of senators Kerry, Kennedy and Clinton. She then pointed out:

I testified in 2001 and 2002 before a committee of which Obama was a member.

Obama articulately worried that legislation protecting live aborted babies might infringe on women's rights or abortionists' rights.

Obama's clinical discourse, his lack of mercy, shocked me. I was naive back then. Obama voted against the measure, twice. It ultimately failed."

Jill Stanek

Elective Late Term Abortions
"In 1993, a pregnant teenager and her parents traveled 900 miles to Dr George Tiller's office in Kansas to receive an elective late-term abortion.

Tiller began the abortion by injecting a poisonous syringe through the pregnant teenager's uterus and into the upper left side of the unborn baby's face. He then instructed the teenager to return the next day for the completion of the abortion.

To everyone's dismay, the baby did not die during the intervening hours. After the teenager began to complain of serious abdominal pains, her parents rushed her to a local hospital where the baby was eventually born—alive. The delivery room staff felt that life-support would be futile, so they wrapped the baby in a bassinet without attendance. The teenager and her parents quickly left the scene.

Even without medical care, the baby remained alive. After many hours had passed, the delivery room staff decided to give her treatment. Miraculously, she managed to survive through the entire ordeal. "Sarah", as her adoptive parents later named her, lived until the age of 5, when she succumbed to the developmental harm done to her body during the abortion. The KCl solution that had been injected into the side of her face had left her permanently blind and brain damaged.

Prior to the abortion, Sarah was a perfectly normal baby. The relevant medical records indicate that she had no disabilities or deformities. If Tiller hadn't attempted to poison her, she would be a healthy 9 year old girl with an entire life ahead of her. Instead, she is in a grave."

Conscience clause?
How could they ever consider such a thing when the twerp they're running for president actually believes the "right" of abortion ought to be extended until the "fetus" reaches the age of majority?

Abortion Apologists
I have never had to face making a decision on abortion,personally. I don't know what I would do if a child of mine was raped and got pregnant,as a result.

In the first place,it is said to rarely happen that pregnancy is the result of rape. If I had a daughter and she was raped,and I was aware of it,I would have a DNC performed immediately.

If I was not aware and she became pregnant,I would hope she could carry it to term and if it was too hard for her to keep it,adoption is an option.

She has already been traumatized by the rape. To allow her own child to be murdered,would be more trauma piled on top of the other.

This is all hypothetical. None of us know what we would do in a situation until we face it. I would hope that we would all choose life.


Oh, Kimmy, darlin
According to the Centers for Disease Control, pregnancy and abortion rates, particularly among teenagers, is DOWN from 2001.

Maybe instead of being an America-hating, fascist LIEberal, you'll grow a brain, get a clue, and learn a few facts for a change?

christians
I am not a christian,but I do not believe in abortion.Anyone that believes in abortion or votes for someone that believes in abortion cannot be a christian.

I have Never understood the late
term abortion argument. To save the mother. If that was truly the argument a C-section would be the answer. Late term abortion is truly and only for the mother who has decided she doesn't want the baby. Mental health is an oxymoron. Killing ones child isn't going to help a mentally ill person,.

Ret.Geek: Added info on Jill Stanek.

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/08/breaking_news_n_ 1.html#more


Several excellent short articles from Jill Stanek:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=71571

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51 121


two points
Obviously the case for democratic intolerance of pro-life democrats would be stronger if the senate majority leader was not a pro-life democrat.

But the more serious mistake in the column above is confusing making abortions rare and making them illegal. In general, abortion rates go up when Republicans are in power and go down when the democrats are. This is not surprising. In general women have abortions when they have unwanted pregnancies which they believe they can't care for if they are brought to term.

When you have Prager proudly stating he is not a liberal because liberals support birth control (among other reasons), you can get a good sense of why unwanted pregnancies tend to go up when Republicans are calling the shots.

On the other end, when poverty is increasing people are less confident they can provide for children, when poverty is decreasing they are less likely to choose abortion. So economic policies which favor the rich tend to indirectly lead to increased in abortion.

So if you want to state your disapproval of abortion, no doubt the Republican party is the party for you. But if you want to make abortion rare, you really are better off with the democrats.

in a secular world where...
all embrace imperfection as an unavoidable human condition, the ability to discuss right and wrong becomes impossible. We are told that unless we ourselves are perfect then we can throw no stones.

Secularism is an excuse to do whatever you want, right or wrong and just chalk it up to being human.

Secularism bordering on Hedonism is destroying the moral fabric of society, making numb our consciences and silent our voices.

Anyone who does not see that abortion is murder and won't stand up for the most innocent of human life has been desensitized to the point that they will overlook any behavior that once would have brought them to tears.

This is one reason among many that the Democrat Party has been taken over by a bunch of elite Marxists whose agendas cannot afford a moral standard and are attempting to lead America down a long and miserable road to H3ll!


Abortion laws don't reduce abortions
Hear hear - over the river, we were informed by the Liberal David Steele that the Abortion Act 1967 would reduce abortions by making sure that every baby is a "wanted" baby. Abortions in the UK have skyrocketed since then; there is talk of removing the "conscience" clause and ov getting nurses to perform abortions. The pro-choicers cover themselves by saying that there is always counselling available afterwards; haveing been a drugs worker and worked with women who have had abortions, many of them have told me that the last thing they want to do is to return to the place where they had the abortion in order to get counselling, hence the increased drug-use etc.

Frugal Dougal
England
NE Alabama

I disagree on one point
Abortion is not the most immoral crusade since slavery. It is the most immoral crusade EVER. INCLUDING slavery.

There has been no greater evil inflicted on the people of the United States than Roe v. Wade. Not any of the wars (From the Revolution to the Iraq war), not gun violence, not AIDS, not gay "marriage", not Jim Crow, not slavery. Nothing.

There have been over 40 million abortions performed in this country since 1972. That's a greater average of deaths per year than either Jews killed in the holocaust, OR people killed by Communism in toto.

In 2005 there were:
48,000 people killed in any sort of transportation accident (Car, plane, train, boat, whatever).
69,000 people killed in other types of accidents including 789 killed accidentally by firearms.
40,000 people killed intentionally either by themselves or by others, including 29,000 killed intentionally by firearms.
12,000 people killed by AIDS
8,000 people killed by mouth and throat cancer (Chewing tobacco is a common cause)
160,000 people killed by lower respiratory (lung) cancer (Cigarettes are attributable to most, but not all of those)
130,000 people killed by chronic lower respiratory illnesses like Emphysema and Athsma (including those caused by smoking, which is not broken out in the data I saw.)

That's 467,000 people killed by various major causes.

For reference there were 2.4 million deaths outside the womb in 2005 from any cause.

There were also an estimated 1.2 million abortions. That's almost 3 times as many as were killed by guns, AIDS, cars, and cigarettes.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_10.pdf (Start on page 31).

http://alanguttmacherinstitute.net/pubs/journals/4000608.pd f

@Lon
Are you certain you're looking at the same facts as the rest of this group? Among those who normally consider themselves to be law-abiding, making something legal will amplify the number of times it occurs. That was the whole argument originally, if I recall correctly - 'safe, legal, rare'.

As to your arguments about increasing poverty, from what I've noticed 'poverty' generally tends to increase in relation to governmental action in individuals lives. Some few might be granted a 'stay of execution' on the state, as it were, but this is paid for by others who are pushed closer to the line.

Oh, and for the record? The quotes are because 'poverty' has become a relative term these days, at least in America. I don't know if it was purely federal, or federal + local state, but the last time I saw anything even remotely resembling hard numbers, the difference between 'the poor' (as defined for a giveaway program) and 'the rich' (as defined for a specific taxation purpose) was something like $3000USD/year for a family of four. I'm still waiting for the day when they accidentally overlap the two numbers, but it doesn't appear to be that far off.

Lon #31: You do realize, don't you,

that NOT ONE WORD of your post is either true or accurate????

Well, if you did't, you do now!





Please excuse
I apparently need to proofread a bit more - the point I was trying to make was that the original argument of 'safe, legal, rare' was opposed on the grounds I named.

To David Limbaugh:
Four years ago, I was the first president of the "renegade" Florida Democrats for Life chapter that refused to endorse John Kerry. After successfully working to ensure a loss for Senator Kerry in Florida, I stepped down from my position because I could not be a part of an organization that puts being "Democrat" before being "Pro-Life". I am now registered Republican so I can vote in the primaries for pro-life Republicans (because I believe that the Democrats will only change their minds on abortion when they have been totally defeated). I have continued to follow Florida DFLA and the national group, and I share your concern that they are being used by the DNC. Specifically, I am concerned that DFLA has never updated its Mission Statement to include opposition to embryonic stem cell research and human cloning. Senator James Langevin, a proponent of ESCR sits on DFLA's Advisory Board. This is the senator who introduced Ron Reagan at the 2004 DNC convention. While I do believe that Kristen Day is sincere in her efforts to change the Democrat Party, I am afraid that her head will be spinning when she sees what Barack Obama does to dismantle all the progress that has been made by the pro-life movement over the past 35 years.

Lies
The Democratic party does NOT want to reduce abortions.

Their supporters in Planned Parenthood and NARAL specifically council their "patients" toward abortion and away from adoption, never mind (oh the horror) actually keeping and caring for the baby. They resist efforts at allowing even the slightest interference with a woman choosing abortion. They fight parental consent laws, laws prohibiting non-parental adults taking under-age girls across state lines, and even laws requiring that abortion "clinics" adhere to the cleanliness and sterility standards of legitimate operating theaters. They require that abortion be mentioned as a choice to anyone with an "un-wanted" pregnancy (by any doctor, not just the PP and NARAL butchers), and push to reduce the influence of keeping the child or adoption. And now we're being told that protecting the life of a baby born alive after a botched abortion unfairly restricts that God-given, natural, Constitutional right.

Rights
Does anyone notice the "regardless of ability to pay" line when it comes to abortion "rights"?

Does that mean that Obama will protect my right (absolutely and unequivacally protected from infringement in the Constitution) to own a firearm "regardless of [my] ability to pay" for one?

Obamas on Partial Birth Abortion 1
The Obamas on Partial Birth Abortion 1
From: email-list@obamaforillinois.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 7:41 AM
Subject: A Message from Michelle Obama

February 17, 2004

Dear Friends:

We have all been concerned lately with the rise of conservatism in this country, especially as it relates to women. You've read the alarming news about the Justice Department's request for hospitals to turn over the private medical records of dozens of patients. This cynical ploy is designed to intimidate a group of physicians and force them to drop their lawsuit seeking to have the so-called partial birth abortion ban ruled unconstitutional.

The fact remains, with no provision to protect the health of the mother, this ban on a legitimate medical procedure is clearly unconstitutional and must be overturned. Attorney General Ashcroft and president bush believe so zealously in their cause that the privacy rights of patients are under assault. They believe we have no federal right to privacy when it concerns our medical histories.

On March 16th, we have a chance to nominate a candidate who will be tireless in the fight to protect women. It isn't simply about the right to choose, or privacy rights. It is about pay equity, about ending domestic violence, promoting health care around the world, and letting doctors decide treatment options, not federal judges.
-------------------------
*NOTE continued on Part 2

Obamas on Partial Birth Abortion 2
It goes without saying that we must win back the U.S. Senate and hold our ground as a check against the right-wing executive branch. Illinois will be a key battleground and your vote is critical.

My husband has stood up for women time and again, and I am proud of his record. He understands that casting a vote on the floor of the Senate takes greater courage than issuing a position paper. Oftentimes, a well intentioned law is in fact a flawed law. That's why it is critical we nominate someone who has faced these tough choices. That's why nominating an experienced legislator is so important in this race. It takes courage to cast a vote.

Who among the Democrats running has a proven record? Who among the candidates running for the Senate in Illinois has stood up to the right wing politicians and voted against their agenda? Who can we count on to keep the Bush/Ashcroft team from appointing the Supreme Court Justice that will vote against Roe v. Wade?

Please join me in sending a message of unity and strength by attending the Women for Obama Luncheon on February 23rd at the Hyatt Regency. Lunch costs $150 and includes remarks from our friends the Reverend Willie Barrow and Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky. To reserve your seat please call the campaign office headquarters at 312-427-6400 or log on to the Obama for Illinois Website.

I urge you to stand with me and support my husband at this event. You know the stakes have never been higher and we can't depend on untested amateurs and administrators in this fight. Barack is a fighter and he will be a champion we can be proud of.

Thanks you so much for all of your support.

Signature: Michelle Obama

Mother Teresa said it best...Part 1
Mother Teresa Delivered Anti-Abortion Answer At a National Prayer Breakfast in Washington

While she was alive, Mother Teresa of Calcutta delivered the most startling and bold proclamation of truth to power. Before an audience of 3,000 - that included President Clinton and Hillary, Al Gore and Tipper as well as several congressional leaders - the then 83-year old nun, who was physically frail but spiritually and rhetorically powerful, delivered an address that cut to the heart of the social ills afflicting America.

She said that America, once known for generosity to the world, has become selfish. And she said that the greatest proof of that selfishness is abortion. Tying abortion to growing violence and murder in the streets, she said, 'If we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill each other? . . . Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want.'

At that line, most of those in attendance erupted in a standing ovation, something that rarely occurs at these sedate events. At that moment, President Clinton quickly reached for his water glass, and Mrs. Clinton and Vice President and Mrs. Gore stared without expression at Mother Teresa. They did not applaud. It was clearly an uncomfortable moment on the dais.

She then delivered the knockout punch: 'Many people are very, very concerned with children in India, with the children of Africa where quite a few die of hunger, and so on. Many people are also concerned about all the violence in this great country of the United States. 'These concerns are very good. But often these same people are not concerned with the millions who are being killed by the deliberate decision of their own mothers. And this is what is the greatest destroyer of peace today - abortion, which brings people to such blindness.'

Mother Teresa said it best...Part 2
What? Abortion destroys peace and causes blindness toward the sick, the hungry and the naked? Abortion leads to wars between nations? Of course it does, if life is regarded so lightly and its disposal becomes so trivial, so clinical and so easy. Why should people or nations regard human life as noble or dignified if abortion flourishes? Why agonize about indiscriminate death in Bosnia when babies are being killed far more efficiently and out of the sight of television cameras?

Mother Teresa delivered her address without rhetorical flourishes. She never raised her voice or pounded the lectern. Her power was in her words and the selfless life she has led. Even President Clinton, in his remarks that followed, acknowledged she was beyond criticism because of the life she has lived in service to others.

At the end, she pleaded for pregnant women who don't want their children to give them to her: 'I am willing to accept any child who would be aborted and to give that child to a married couple who will love the child and be loved by the child.' She said she has placed over 3,000 children in adoptive homes from her Calcutta headquarters alone. She has answered the question, 'Who will care for all of these babies if abortion is again outlawed?' Now the question is whether a woman contemplating abortion wishes to be selfish or selfless, to take life or to give life.”

Personally speaking
There was a time in my life when I bought into the Left's agenda. I was an impressionable teenager in the 60's, and I admit today that I was duped. I was played a fool. I voted for Democrats and their liberal agenda at the first opportunity I could starting with Humphrey and ending with Clinton. I voted a straight Democrat ticket in each and every election. I was lulled by the words Democrat’s used to describe injustices between the have’s and the have not’s. Their speeches were just what my itching ears wanted to hear.

Then I woke up. I started reading about what the Democrat's had done with my vote and the votes of millions like me. I started listening to other points of view and examining how I felt about each and every issue in each and every election. And guess what? I changed my way of thinking and ultimately changed how I voted. And I grew up.

Choice: I realized that the most cherished gift we have are our children. They are our future. I had an abortion in 1974 because I was told I had a "right" to abort my child if I wanted. I bought into the Left's argument that that every woman has a "right" to choose what she did with her body. Today I realize I was wrong to take that innocent life. My child would have been 34 years old today. Instead, I "chose" to terminate that life for my own selfish reasons. Do I regret my decision? Sadly, yes. Did I decide to do something about it? Thankfully, yes! I changed my way of thinking and I changed my vote. My decision to change was based on whether I believed I was my highest moral authority and could choose anything I wanted to do---including taking the life of an innocent---or whether there was someone higher than me who knew more than I could ever know and was infinitely more wise than I could ever be. I want no part of a party that advocates that innocent life is expendable. (continued)

Personally speaking...
Today, I disdain politicians who say they have my best interest in mind, yet espouse an agenda that seeks to do away with our future generation by defending the "right" of any person to take the life of the most innocent among us. One day, I might be found to be utterly senile and quite innocent in my old age, and someone else might be granted the “right” to take my life. You say that will never happen in America? Think again. I’ll bet the Founders of this nation never thought that one day Americans would be granted the “right” to kill millions of innocent babies, some by having a pair of scissors shoved in their brain and then having their brains sucked out into a container. I don’t want a Democrat to appoint like-minded, left wing judges to the Supreme Court to further their socialist, looney agenda. I want judges who recognize a Higher Moral Authority and who will work diligently to defend the lives of innocents as they seek the counsel of that Higher Authority who truly holds a Supreme Court.

Ret.Geek: Just a little "side" comment.

Michelle said...

"That's why nominating an experienced legislator is so important in this race. It takes courage to cast a vote."

1. Since WHEN is Marxist Obama an "experienced legislator?" Experienced neighborbood organizer (whatever THAT IS) I'd buy, but legislator? Don't think so!

2. And just how many times has Marxist Obama just said "Present" rather than have the courage to actually "vote?"


I think this is some kind of record! TWO lies and/or deceptions in one simple sentence of approximately 14 words!



Ender
The claim that making something legal is opposed to making it rare is not a fact based argument, it is an a priori argument. In fact people do illegal things, and there can be factors that have a bigger influence on whether things are done as to how often they are done.

To see that abortion rates tend to decline under democratic administrations and increase under Republican ones, one simply needs to look at the abortion data over the last few decades. It is true that the reason for this pattern is more speculative.

Given something undesirable, which abortion certainly is, even putting aside moral considerations nobody wants to go through an unnecessary medical procedure, there is no contradiction whatsoever in making something legal, safe, and rare.

I remember when New Jersey stopped providing additional welfare benefits for children born to women already on welfare proponents of the measure crowed that births to women on welfare went down. It happened that abortion rates went up as much as birth rates went down. The author of the bill denied that his bill had that effect because he was an opponent of abortion. But actions have unintended consequences sometimes.

So, the facts support what I said above even if you think they shouldn't. The stubborn thing is, they do.

Anne
I would be more impressed with your argument against what I said, if you actually made one. Can you point to any factual claim I made that is actually not true?

Like I've said,
Liberals justify their dereliction of responsibility to the most vulnerable among us under the terms of "choice" and "dignity".

All of which depends on the idea that there is such a thing as a life not worth living. Or at the very least, a life not worth helping.

Thank goodness the circuit-riding abortionist in our town was virtually escorted out on the proverbial rail when the ER docs got fed up with constantly having to repair his "safe, legal, and [anything but] rare" butchery and sought to have his license revoked.

Some solid, substantive answers!!!
I think it might be a good idea that we make sure Pastor Rick knows that we're looking for some solid, substantive answers!!!

I believe this is a current email
email address for Saddleback...

rickw@saddleback.net

corona@saddleback.net




Limbaugh wrote
"Day and her group apparently value party membership so highly that they've dutifully agreed to march quietly back into the closet".

Analogous to some of Canada's Progressive Conservative party members in 1990, when asked to vote on implementing GST--with threats of being expelled for not toeing party leader's (then already-proven treasonous Brian Mulroney) line. Only TWO members, both from Alberta, actually voted on conscience--and actually were expelled. But justice worked out--one of these (who crossed over to Liberal party) actually retained his seat in 1993 (albeit as a Grit), a feat that NO other Alberta Tory MP (including the other dissenter, Alex Kindy who went independent) did.

I'm praying that the Dhimmicruds will suffer a 1993 (of Baloney-Tories).

"Punishment"
"...if his daughters made a 'mistake,' he [Obama] wouldn't 'want them punished with a baby'..."

So why punish the baby ?

Lon: Oh geeze, here we go again!

How about you prove your statement!

You make the preposterous statements you make, you'd best be prepared to "back em' up!"

Until then...... Cheers! :-)



I have an idea for the Dems
party platform. I call it the AMERICAN CLAUSE. It goes like this. First we outlaw abortions except in certain estremely RARE circumstances such as incest, rape, or the mother's health. Then instead of teaching school kids how to masturbate (Dems current approach) let's teach them how sex makes babies and more importantly that if they DO decide to have sex and get pregnant, THEY are responsible for the child's welfare!! How AMERICAN!!! When I was a child my father made me responsible for everything I did no matter how much it cost me. What that taught me was if you don't want to face the consequences of doing something you aren't supposed to do, DON'T DO IT.Quite simple but VERY EFFECTIVE. Worked REALLY well for me and my four siblings too. And the really wierd part about it was that NONE of us grew up feeling neglected or habored bad feelings towards him because he denied us the right to make bad decisions and get away with it!! Now THAT is a party platform MOST Americans can support! Not just the lazy and disengaged of our society like the Dems have now. Face it folks, without the "fringe" of society, the Dems have no voter base. Their "inclusiveness" is nothing more than pandering and that goes to "moderate Republicans" too(RINO).

Valerie writes: "I stepped down from my
position because I could not be a part of an organization that puts being "Democrat" before being 'Pro-Life.'"

I AM impressed! Thank you.

I wonder how many others have done the same thing???

Anne
Here are the abortion stats form the National Right to Life movement. I assume that that is a balanced enough group for you. It is true that the Bush years are basically flat rather than rising. But compare them with the Clinton years, and in the other direction the Reagan years, and you will see the rather striking difference.

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html

The Worst Thing
But if Day and party objects to the Democrat platform, that might split the party at a time when every vote counts! That is far worse than anything else that could be done. It is more important to elect Demoncrats to office than it is to worry about some small thing like morals.

"Protect the health of the mother"
Define health. Are we talking only long-term-disability or life-threatening physical consequences? Or are we including the short-term discomfort that comes with a difficult pregnancy? Are we including temporary, treatable issues like "Post Partum Depression?"

"Health of the mother" is the broad brush that is used by the Left to justify just about every single abortion.

Abortion! Since when
is breech birth ever done to save the life of the mother as Compassionate Kate Michelman argues to support partial birth abortion? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this one of the reasons for Caesarean deliveries to avoid breech birth deliveries?
BTW! This procedure was developed Martin Haskell, James McMahon (Dec) and David Grundmann. To call these butchers doctor would be an insult to the medical profession.

Lon: "Myth Exploded!"
"Refutation of Claim of Abortion Increase Under Bush"

http://www.nrlc.org/rko/index.html

Myth Exploded!

"The Annenberg Center's Factcheck.org says Senator Clinton, Senator Kerry, and Howard Dean were dead wrong to claim that abortions have increased under the Bush Administration -- the truth is, abortions are going down."


Anne-Ssgt-Valerie-Tom-RGeek-Others
Yet The Botox B1tch, Plastic Surgery Pelosi, is FOREVER claiming EVERYTHING she does is “for the children”. I am no McCain fan, but ALL he has to do is tie The Obamoron to Fairy Reid and Plastic Surgery Pelosi on Abortion and Drilling. IF he does so, getting 300 Electoral Votes will be like falling off a log.

Lon
Actions speak louder than words.

It does not matter that Reid is pro-life since he willingly and knowingly capitulates to the party of death.

I laugh at the party of death. They claim to care about the little guy but are totally incapable of protecting the weakest among us and show indifference to them.

Georgetwin: I'm STILL trying to figure

that one out!!!

If anyone can make a wit of sense out of anything Nazi Nancy, and her henchmen say, ESPECIALLY THIS, please let me know!

Otherwise, I'm clueless.

Thanks... :-)



Lolo1: Have you noticed that ol'

hal donahue hasn't stormed the thread with all his pro-abortion rhetoric???

THREE good columns on abortion.. Limbaugh, Carpenter, and Buchanan, and not a peep out of doofus!

Huh! Wanna bet he fell of his bar stool and suffered yet another concussion???



Reducing a wrong doesn't make it right
"Why reduce abortion if it is not immoral,...?"

With this singlular insight, David Limbaugh has blown away all the phoniness of the pro-choice appeal to make abortion "safe, legal, and rare". Anyone who has qualms of any kind about the morality of the act of abortion should ask themselves, what kind of an ethic permits an act that it proponents believe should be discouraged? As Mr. Limbaugh so poignantly asks, if it is not a question of morality, then why the concern about abortion being rare?

Ace, I hear you
and my heart aches for yours. Your youth and inexperience betrayed you then, but your wisdom of age stands for you now. Continue to speak out in experience, for youth of today to hear. It could make a difference that you'll never know about but might affect the world's future.
God bless you.

Same problem, same solution

I bet many of the Posters on this site would vote for Hitler or Stalin if they said they were against Abortion. Nothing else matters to so many of you.

The only time a man (or I should say a male) should mention the word abortion is when the lady he impregnated wants one. The only time a female should mention the word abortion is when she wants one.

All the rest of you, SHUT UP.

And let’s punish the one at fault. The perpetrator of the pregnancy should be castrated.

Before that operation, a short ceremony will determine that heads he gets an anesthetic, tails he doesn’t.

That should solve the problem rapidity.

GOP
As a pro-choice, bleeding-heart, liberal democrat, I have an honest question that I would like answered: would Democrats ever lose an election if they said they were "pro-life"? I don't think we would.

Response to Frank
"As a pro-choice, bleeding-heart, liberal democrat, I have an honest question that I would like answered: would Democrats ever lose an election if they said they were "pro-life"? I don't think we would."

It seems to me that John Kerry gave that a try and lost. He professed to be pro-life as a Catholic, but said he couldn't oppose abortion choice as a politician since that would be a violation of the separation of church and state. If that's the kind of twisted logic you think will win elections for Democrats, you're kidding yourself.

jim
"I bet many of the Posters on this site would vote for Hitler or Stalin if they said they were against Abortion. Nothing else matters to so many of you."

That is a ridiculous statement and an absurd assumption on your part.

"All the rest of you, SHUT UP."

We still have the First Amendment in this country so no one has to shut up as you put it.

If we cannot protect or even care about the weakest among us why in the heck should we even care if you or anybody else is murdered since you are obviously not part of the weakest.

Your post typifies the callousness that Mother Teresa so eloquently spoke about.

LoLo1! Great response to
Jim. His solution is to castrate all impregnators. As to shutting up, I didn't spend four years of my life defending the Constitution and the First Admendment only to be be told by the likes of Jim that I can't speak out against this horrible atrocity. Bullsh**!


Anne
I take it you didn't actually read my post or look at the site I linked to. There I pointed out that while abortions soared under Reagan, they fell steadily under Clinton and basically flatlined under Bush.

What you link to is an article which appears to have been written before most of the data that I linked to was available. (There is a lag in data of this sort which is why even the later site does not give data for the last couple of years.)

Abortion rates declined an impressive 25% in the 90's. That decline slowed significantly in the 00's. And the fact that abortion is increasingly being performed using pills means that more abortions may be being missed by this surveys, so that could overstate the recent decline.

Lolo 1
The action attributed to the Democratic party was excluding any pro-life democrats. In fact the actions by the Democratic party includes picking a pro-life democrat to hold what is currently the second most important position held by a democrat.

Of course the democrats are largely a pro-choice party. But the claim that they are exclusionary, which the republicans trot out periodically, always pointing to a single issue from more than a decade ago does not hold up.

But as I said if thinks the most important thing is for abortion to be illegal, of course the republicans are your party. If you think it more important that abortions be rare, then the democrats should be your party.

Or you may vote on some other issue entirely.

jim Questions for you?

1) Why are the Democrats so incensed over the prisoners and their treatment at Gitmo yet willing to allow 'Genocide' in Iraq?

July 2007 "Presidential hopeful Barack Obama said the United States cannot use its military to solve humanitarian problems and that preventing a potential genocide in Iraq isn't a good enough reason to keep U.S. forces there."
------------------------------------------------

Jim why do Democrats hate children?

Lesley Stahl on CBS's 60 Minutes.

Madeleine Albright When asked by Stahl with regards to effect of sanctions against Iraq:

"We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?"
Albright replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it."

Lon
Please provide proof that it is the Democrats that have made the number of abortions less.

Cut and paste

I don’t want to spend all day trying to think up new answers to these comments, so here are some cut and paste, from the past.

==============

The question is always asked, “Does abortion end an innocent human life?” Absolutely not. The Bible says in Genesis 2, verse 6 or 7. Life begins with the breath of life, not before.

================

I say I am against all abortions unless the alternative is worse.

It has often been said, that if men could get pregnant, abortions would be available everywhere.

================

Are you one of those who watch TV news stories of starving babies in Nigeria and cheer, and say, "At least she didn't get an abortion!"

If a child can be expected to starve and suffer for the very few months of its life, let’s stop the birth, until someone can find a way to force (if necessary) MEN and women to make proper choices in their sexual activities.

I wish I had written down the name, but I actually did hear an anti-abortion fanatic on TV last year, say that he actually believed that a starving baby was better off than an aborted fetus, really. Don’t have an idea who or when or where.

===========

As I told the doctor when my daughter was born, “I know child bearing has its expected problems, but until my Beautiful Wife is as safe as she can be during childbirth, there is no baby.” The Dr. said, “That’s what I like to hear.”

Geek must be a Programmer

Retired Geek Location: VA
Reply # 2
Date: Aug 12, 2008 - 1:59 PM EST

You sound like a computer programmer, just not interested in the facts, or what is needed, or what is the subject at the moment.

Just do or say whatever you want, like the TH programmers, who don’t care what is needed, but are so responsible for all the screweyness of the actions (not the content) of this site.


Lon, you make sense
I don't believe abortion is wrong, but that doesn't mean I can't believe it's better for women not to have unwanted pregnancies in the first place and not have to undergo an intrusive medical procedure. And reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies would make people on both sides of the issue happy, for the most part. Of course, some of the things I support for reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies--wider availability of birth control, better sex education--wouldn't make some of the hard right happy. And yes, I also support personal responsibility, having the self-esteem to avoid having sex if the circumstances aren't right, etc. I can't embrace the total abstinence until marriage philosophy, though--some people don't marry until they're in their 30s or not at all, and I don't think it's a bad thing for mature, responsible people to have sex, even if they're not married. However, anyone who wants to abstain, fine; just don't expect all the rest of us to. Likewise, anyone who opposes the use of birth control--that's your belief, but it shouldn't be public policy.

And go to the Planned Parenthood Web site for a refutation of those "Margaret Sanger was a racist" statements"--some of the words attributed to her on this thread are made up, some are out of context, and, admittedly, some reflect beliefs she and others once held, but are no longer embraced by Planned Parenthood. And BTW, another poster on here, who said "black and Hispanic crime" was a reason for people to have abortions, certainly sounds racist! I would never dream of telling anyone to have an abortion for reason of race, or anything else, for that matter. I'm pro-CHOICE, which means that I believe the government or any other authority has no business either forcing anyone to have an abortion or preventing them from doing so. It's an individual decision.

lolo, missy, missy

Lolo1 Location: CA
Reply # 8
Date: Aug 12, 2008 - 1:37 PM ES

I didn’t say most, and I didn’t give any names, but can you name a subject that concerns the country and their people, that gets so much passion during a discussion as abortion. I don’t remember seeing any comment on any subject that is so positive and so passionate as comments about abortion. It may be important, but not that important.

There must be many problems that are much more important than Abortion.

Like 99% of the posters on the Internet, I post opinions, and I am not so high and mighty to think that anyone else has to agree or disagree with anything I say.

Of course I have an opinion and my solution for most of the problems in the world, but I don’t think any one has to care what I say.

I am not in any position to force any of my ideas on anyone else. And as you know, many, or most, of my solutions are based on things that happened or should have happened decades ago. I’m just an old man puttering around. I sure wish I could just ignore TH for a day.

My computer must go into the shop soon, so a few free days for everyone!

Aaaah jim: You haven't the foggiest clue

as to the REAL FACTS that Retired Geek has!

Trust me, you'd be OVERWHELMED!!!!!

Well, perhaps you do... since you've wormed out!

You lose! Just as you have on Buchanan's thread...




Proud Lib spits: "don't believe abortion

is wrong...."

Soooo, you don't believe KILLING innocent babies is wrong??? 'Cause that's exactly what happens when a women has an abortion!

She is KILLING an LIVING, GROWING, innocent, HUMAN BABY!


Oh, and about the quotes of Margaret Sanger... Not made up. All noted. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's the way it is, scooter!

Now, how about we see almost as much concern for HUMAN BABIES as you liberals show for polar bear babies.

jim, you said....
"The question is always asked, “Does abortion end an innocent human life?” Absolutely not. The Bible says in Genesis 2, verse 6 or 7. Life begins with the breath of life, not before."

Gen 2:6-7 (6)but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. (7) the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

At the time he created mankind God breathed the breath of life into Adam and into all future generations with that one breath.

In Luke 1:39-44 When Mary went to Elizabeth and greeted her, the baby Elizabeth carried (John the Baptist) lept for joy in her womb as soon as Mary's greeting reached Elizabeth's ears.

I do love babies
But there is a difference between an embryo and a baby. Yes, the former will become the latter, but I'm sorry, I can't weep over an early-term abortion. As it gets later, I know, the question becomes thornier. But I still can't believe in forcing a woman to bear an unwanted child. To me, though, this is all the more reason for people on both sides of the abortion issue to work together on preventing unwanted pregnancies.

And P.S., another poster who makes sense here is Jim!

Proud Lib: Like ABSTINENCE? Great idea!
.

Abstinence is fine
for anyone who wants to abstain. I just can't buy an expectation of universal abstinence among the unmarried. But I would like everyone to use good judgment about whether to have sex.

jim
"Like 99% of the posters on the Internet, I post opinions, and I am not so high and mighty to think that anyone else has to agree or disagree with anything I say."

That is pure baloney! Otherwise you would have never used the phrase "Shut Up!"

You pro-choice supporters are under the impression that your position is strong, when in reality you are weak, weak, weak. Only weak people make any excuse in the book not to accept the consequences of their actions.

If you want to be pro-choice then fine, at least get some good arguments.

Proud Lib
Are you against late term abortions? Are you against partial birth abortions? At what point does an embryo stop being an embryo and begin being a baby? When the heartbeats? If that's the case, a baby's heart begins beating after 4 weeks. When the baby begins to feel pain? That begins when the nerve endings are intially formed and the brain begins to transmit and receive nueral transmissions -that's about 3 weeks. When it has a head? Feet? finger prints? When the baby can grasp? All of those occur early on during the 1st trimester.

Should babies who are delivered through a "botched" abortion be allowed to live? When is an abortion legal, and when is it murder?

Proud Liberal
"It's an individual decision."

You are correct. However it ceased being an individual decision the minute Planned Parenthood not only started withholding information, both the psychological and the physical kind, it also ceased when they started using my tax dollars for subsidies.

Since we still have Freedom of Religion in this country, my religion says you have absolutely no right to make me complicit in your sin or burn in hades with you.

Abortion is has become mass genocide funded by the taxpayers of this country.

'safe, legal and rare'
Yes, that is how we exercise a supposed "right," isn't it -- as little as possible?
http://www.johnlocke.org/lockerroom/lockerroom.html?id=3911

Did you notice

It seems that none of you read or comment on the most important statement in any of my comments about abortion.


"I am absolutely against an abortion, unless the alternative is worse."

I missed that one

Farmer's Wife Location: TX
Reply # 8
Date: Aug 12, 2008 - 3:25 PM EST

the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Yes I know where that statement is, and I believe it.

=========
At the time he created mankind God breathed the breath of life into Adam and into all future generations with that one breath.

I missed that one, and don't believe that one, what chapter and verse it that in?

M Sederoff
Thanks for the comment. It is ME who should be thanking you, however, for your Last Days analysis. Excellent!

Justifying abortion
"But I still can't believe in forcing a woman to bear an unwanted child."

Proud Lib, I'm curious. Is this your view regardless of whether the life of a child is being destroyed or not? Or, is simply not wanting a child enough grounds to justify ending its life?

I understand that the prospect of having to bear a child that you didn't want is a bummer, but is this sufficient grounds in and of itself to allow abortion as a way to get out from under so to speak?

jeffjenn
You're not going to like my answer, but yes. To me, it should be totally the woman's decision (well, with whoever else she wishes to involve), and while I may or may not approve of her decision, I don't believe I have the legal right to interfere.

Poor Kid
I had a lady friend that went through an abortion.

Her reason: "I dont want my child growing up in hand me down thrift store cloths"

Abortion is Murder
Using the doublespeak of "a woman's right to choose" the left has hoodwinked the stupid, and browbeaten the caring into fearful silence.

Conservatives have a natural inclination to "keep their laws off someone else's body." as such, repeating the mantra of "a woman's right to choose" (to kill her unborn baby) has brainwashed even loving mothers into a willingness to tolerate murder as a solution to the inconvenience of children.

We can expect for abortion and infanticide to become ever more prevalent until such time as a "gay gene" is discovered. Then, it will become illegal (but only if the child carries the alleged "gay gene").

Abortion & Murder
Conservatives have not done enough to stop this barbaric behavior. We have complained about it,but if we were liberals and were against it,it would be changed.

It will never happen,because they are the party who believes legalized murder is acceptable,but just imagine....

If liberals were against abortion,they would harp on it 24/7 . We would be bombarded by pictures of mutilated,dead babies torn from their mother's body.

Every abortion clinic (slaughterhouse) would be picketed and the pictures of girls entering the buildings would be shown. They would be calling,threatening violence,etc.They would try everything,legal or illegal.

Then if all that did not work,they would demand judges end it all the way to the Supreme Court.

Conservatives are not fighters like liberals. So girls keep going to abortionists and babies continue to die.


Proud Lib
Why should the mother have the entire right to choose whether or not to keep the baby? It was the decision by both the mother and the father to engage in sex. The child is a product of the genetic material from both the mother and the father. The rights of the father are never brought into question until child support is due.

In something like 98% of all custody case, the woman "suffers" through pregnancy for 9 months, but the man gets financially gouged by the system for 18 years (minimum), not only for the care of the child, but also for the hospital bills of the mother, all for the hope of maintaining some scant visitation rights.

This is just one aspect about the "fairness" of abortion. So much for the "equal reproductive rights" and the "right to privacy" you liberals are so proud of...

Also, you say, "But I would like everyone to use good judgment about whether to have sex." Wouldn't the best way to have everyone use good judgment be to make people face the consequences for their actions? I suspect that if abortion were not a legal option, people would be far less likely to be so sexually promiscuous. By legalizing elective abortion on demand, as well as making the taxpayer liable for it, aren't you encouraging promiscuity?

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - In Order of Importance!

My selfish abortion
Did you read my earlier post from Mother Teresa? She hit the nail on the head when she said

'If we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill each other? . . . Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. What? Abortion destroys peace and causes blindness toward the sick, the hungry and the naked? Abortion leads to wars between nations? Of course it does, if life is regarded so lightly and its disposal becomes so trivial, so clinical and so easy. Why should people or nations regard human life as noble or dignified if abortion flourishes? Why agonize about indiscriminate death in Bosnia when babies are being killed far more efficiently and out of the sight of television cameras?'

When abortion becomes so convenient, so available, and so accessible to every woman, and comes with the blessing of senators, congressmen, and the president, one doesn't have to think too much on the consequences. I didn't think past my own selfishness when confronted with an unexpected pregnancy in 1974. It was an option available to me that alleviated me (and the father) of the responsibility of rearing a child. No muss, no fuss. Just have the abortion and get on with life. My life wasn't in danger, I wasn't suffering mentally. I just didn't want to have a baby and raise a child (read selfishness).

But it is in the quiet of night for so many years that I reflected on the life that could have been. It took me 23 years to find peace.

Democrats wring their hands over the "rights" of prisoners in Gitmo, or cry for the deaths in Darfur, or weep for starving children in India, but never shed a tear for the little ones that are mass-murdered down the street at the local Planned Parenthood. Instead, I prefer to focus my fight for human rights on Main Street, USA.

A few facts, in case anyone's interested
In countries where abortion is illegal, abortion rates actually go UP, or remain unchanged.

The countries where abortion rates are LOWEST, are the countries where sex education and birth control are most freely and widely dispensed.

The only thing that happens when you criminalize abortion, is that MORE WOMEN DIE.

So, keep it up, idiots. Where's Barry Goldwater when we need him?

So y

fotini901: WHY DON'T YOU AND YOUR
MURDEROUS FACTS TAKE A SHORT TRIP UP A SUCTION HOSE?

fotini901: BETTER YET>>>
WHY DON'T YOU AND YOUR
MURDEROUS FACTS
TAKE A SHORT TRIP UP A SUCTION HOSE
INTO A BLOODY MASS OF ABORTED FETAL MATTER?!

fotini 901
Will you name these countries in question and the percentages?

OBAMA: ABORTION JUNKIE
OBAMA IS AN ABORTION JUNKIE >>>> ANY CATHOLIC OR CHRISTIAN WHO VOTES FOR HIM HAS BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS!

Lon you are an ugly troll !!!
We understand that you support the killing of millions of the unborn, you have no respect for life in general. What a miserable creature you are. Crawl back to the rock you crawled out from under. Pitiful you are Pitiful....

Tiller the Baby Killer - Kansas

"In 1993, a pregnant teenager and her parents traveled 900 miles to Dr George Tiller's office in Kansas to receive an elective late-term abortion.

Tiller began the abortion by injecting a poisonous syringe through the pregnant teenager's uterus and into the upper left side of the unborn baby's face.

He then instructed the teenager to return the next day for the completion of the abortion.

To everyone's dismay, the baby did not die during the intervening hours. After the teenager began to complain of serious abdominal pains, her parents rushed her to a local hospital where the baby was eventually born—alive.

The delivery room staff felt that life-support would be futile, so they wrapped the baby in a bassinet without attendance. The teenager and her parents quickly left the scene.

Even without medical care, the baby remained alive. After many hours had passed, the delivery room staff decided to give her treatment.

Miraculously, she managed to survive through the entire ordeal. "Sarah", as her adoptive parents later named her, lived until the age of 5, when she succumbed to the developmental harm done to her body during the abortion.

The KCl solution that had been injected into the side of her face had left her permanently blind and brain damaged.

Prior to the abortion, Sarah was a perfectly normal baby.

The relevant medical records indicate that she had no disabilities or deformities.

If Tiller hadn't attempted to poison her, she would be a healthy 9 year old girl with an entire life ahead of her.

Instead, she is in a grave."

Thanks But No Thanks, Mr. Limbaugh

We Democrats would be stupid to take advice from enemies like David Limbaugh. If he'd like the Democratic party to include a "Safe and Rare" plank in our stance on Abortion, then he should get the Republican Hard Right to stop trying to outlaw ALL abortion.

fotini901:
"...In countries where abortion is illegal, abortion rates actually go UP, or remain unchanged.
The countries where abortion rates are LOWEST, are the countries where sex education and birth control are most freely and widely dispensed."

This is interesting.. Could you provide some documentation about this, as Lon did regarding abortions increasing during GOP administrations?


Regal Lion & CharletonHeston

Wow! What a case of allergic reaction to facts!

Obama is 100% for PBA

Michelle and Barack Obama are 100% for Partial Birth Abortions and have done everything in their power to protect and empower this procedure.

"I stood at the doctor’s side and watched him perform a partial-birth abortion on a woman who was six months pregnant.

The baby’s heartbeat was clearly visible on the ultrasound screen.

The doctor delivered the baby’s body and arms, everything but his little head.

The baby’s body was moving. His little fingers were clasping together. He was kicking his feet.

The doctor took a pair of scissors and inserted them into the back of the baby’s head, and the baby’s arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks that he might fall.

Then the doctor opened the scissors up. Then he stuck the high-powered suction tube into the hole and sucked the baby’s brains out.

Now the baby was completely limp. I never went back to the clinic. But I am still haunted by the face of that little boy.

It was the most perfect, angelic face I have ever seen."

fotini901
First of all I would like to know about those countries and I want a few more stats about their cultures as well. Such as is birth control readily available? What about sex education? Are these countries part of Western Civilization? Telling me that in countries where abortion is illegal more women die, tells me very little if anything.

Next I have little sympathy for women dying in the pursuit of murder. Should I sympathize with the hardened criminal because he got shot by a cop in the commission of a crime? My only sympathy for these women is that they never learned judgment in the first place, and that is how they got themselves into such a desperate situation to begin with.

Retired Geek
That is why Obama is not fit to be president to begin with. He is part of the militant left that want no restrictions on abortion at all. There can be no compromise. If there is no compromise there, where else is there no compromise? Does he even know when to compromise and when not to? Just the fact that he doesn't want any judgment at all tells me he lacks the judgment to be president.

Anominus
Promiscuity has existed since the beginning of time and will exist no matter what the laws are. And women have always sought ways to control their fertility, including seeking out illegal abortions. I agree with fotini901--when abortion is criminalized, it means more women die.

And as far as making people responsible for the "consequences" of their behavior, well, that doesn't really sound like a prescription for loving parenthood.

Fotini901
Your "facts" are anything but. Try, "typical liberal hysterics," instead.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

You also fail to recognize that in "developing" countries, things like rape rooms, forced prostitution, and forced abortion exist. Under circumstances like these, of course abortion is going to be higher. It has little to do with the law. And why is it so much more a concern if "WOMEN DIE" than it is if children die?

Proud Lib
Your respect for life is absent, you have no empathy. You are a cold and dead soul. I pity your life but not you, your choices are clear. You ought to bend over and grab your ankles bro. The Big o is comin and he is gonna give it to you hard, real hard. Your callousness regarding the human existence is depressing. You need to find some true meaning in life. Hold on to life. Promote Life. Nurture life. Love life for it is a gift from God. Only he has the "Right" to end a life. Say hey to Satan when the gates open for you bro.

Proud Liberal
"And as far as making people responsible for the "consequences" of their behavior, well, that doesn't really sound like a prescription for loving parenthood."



Show me anywhere in Anominus post that he said that they could not put the child up for adoption. That, if pregnant, the woman absolutely has to keep that child no matter what. Did someone outlaw adoption and I didn't get the memo?

More liberal hysterics.

Flaming Liberal Idiot
You too, should bend over and grab your ankles Bro. The Big O is comin and he's gonna give it to you hard, real hard, enjoy...........


Just the Facts Mam

Conservative Fact = Fact
Liberal Fact = Whatever supports my story

Proud Lib
"Promiscuity has existed since the beginning of time and will exist no matter what the laws are. And women have always sought ways to control their fertility, including seeking out illegal abortions. I agree with fotini901--when abortion is criminalized, it means more women die."

Ok, and? I see you don't deny that abortion makes promiscuity more permissible, acceptable, and available. Murder has also existed since the beginning of time. Should we just legalize it in the hopes that it will become "more safe?"

"And as far as making people responsible for the "consequences" of their behavior, well, that doesn't really sound like a prescription for loving parenthood."

Abortion sounds like "loving parenthood" to you? Death is a more viable option than sacrifice and difficulty? What sort of twisted universe do you live in? And why should the child pay the consequences for actions it has no choice in?

Regal Lion
states: OBAMA IS AN ABORTION JUNKIE >>>> ANY CATHOLIC OR CHRISTIAN WHO VOTES FOR HIM HAS BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS!

You are 100 percent correct and you have the courage to say it and not buy into morally relativistic nonsense. Some things ARE black and white. Abortion is one of them. You can't kill someone "just a little."

About Unwanted Children
Try this: find someone whose parents didn't want him or her. Then ask whether he/she would just rather be dead.

Bet you'll find that the great majority would choose to live. I bet so would all those aborted babies, had they been allowed to grow old enough to be posed the question.

The shibboleth of 'unwanted babies' is just another attempt at justification of a horrible practice.

Ace...
I hear your heart in this...and I understand. The statistics don't speak to the women who are assured by their government that abortion is okay and it's their right...only to feel the horrible burden of having taken the life of their own child. No other experience compares so it is difficult for those who haven't been there to understand. The only consolidation is that your child is with God and God knows your heart. The Lord can and will forgive you, even when you can't forgive yourself. I oppose abortion in any form...I would rather my tax dollars go to support the child after it is born than to murder it in the womb. The costs to society as a whole are so great when it legalizes putting one's own self interests before the life of another. Where is the humanity in that position?

Talli2long
Hey I haven't seen you in awhile!

Hope you are well!!!

I don't recall so few posts on any of

Limbaugh's threads...

Seems this is an issue that the limited liberals are staying far away from...

Perhaps way too much infomation that exposes their celebrity, Marxist Obama, for WHO and WHAT he really is.



Obama OK with Genocide in Iraq

Many Americans have heard about the 'Rape Rooms' in Iraq.

The details are to ghastly to describe here at TH, this is as graphic as allowed.

Women and girls, reportedly as young as 9 years old, were strapped down and repeatedly raped and tortured any way the 'Islamic Animals' desired, by as many 'Brutal Men' as available.

Many of their families were forced to watch.

When the 'Islamic Animals' had enough of the female, many were fed feet first into a wood chipper while they were still alive.

The next female victim and their families would be brought in.

This was Genocide of Iraqi females.

Obama wants to 'pay' for all of his Marxist solutions by using the money now being spent in Iraq.

Obama for political reasons is OK with genocide in Iraq.

Obama has NO character!

Characteristics of a Psychopath
A psychopath will use people for excitement, entertainment, to build their self-esteem and they invariably value people in terms of their material value

Psychopaths have these characteristics:
---------------------------------------
NO empathy for human life.

Knows the truth, so facts are unnecessary.

Superficial charm.

Self-centered & self-important.

Deceptive behavior & lying.

Conning & manipulative.

Blaming others for their actions.

Little remorse or guilt about anything.

Shallow emotional response.

Callous with a lack of empathy for others feelings or emotions..

Living off others or predatory attitude.

Blaming others for their actions.

A psychopath is usually a subtle manipulator. They do this by playing to the emotions of others. They typically have high verbal intelligence, but they lack what is commonly referred to as "emotional intelligence".

Democratic Voters are Insane
Clinically insane. Unable to distinguiss between fantasy and reality. Feminists supported Slick Willie; Blacks support a party intent on keeping them ignorant and living in a welfare state; anti-abortionists support a party that openly and strongly advocates abortion; parents support a party bent on destroying education and parent-child relationships; Christians vote for a clearly secularist agenda; the educated vote for failed socialist economic policies; believers in the rule of law vote for those who push judicial activism and the use of the courts as a crass political tool. And this is only a partial list.

Can any of these people be considered truly sane? Only, I think, if your definition of sanity allows for the substitution of delusion and denial for understanding and acceptance of facts.

to all...
It amazes me that people still do not get it.

I can not utilize your body to keep myself alive without my permission, period. It does not matter whether you are a fetus or a 50 year old with kidney failure. You cannot force me to utilize my body to support yours.

The abortion debate
is not centered around rape and incest victims, although abortion supporters like to make that the issue. How many pregnancies result from those scenarios? A 10th of 1 percent? No, that's the excuse they use to suppress their guilt. Some posters have called these people insane, delusional and psychopaths and I have to agree. Their beliefs and behavior fall into these categories.

Liberty is not an absolute right
(Proud Lib): "(abortion) should be totally the woman's decision (well, with whoever else she wishes to involve), and while I may or may not approve of her decision, I don't believe I have the legal right to interfere."

Proud Lib, Do you personally believe that any and all conduct should be permitted on the basis of choice, or do you accept that there are clearly areas of conduct where the state does in fact have the legal authority to interfere. If you agree with the latter, then it has to be because you believe certain kinds of conduct are wrong and that as a result of this they fall outside the realm of personal choice.

For you to assert that abortion should be legal regardless of whether it takes a life puts you in the extremely absurd position of being against any law that interferes with a right of choice to murder whomever we want for whatever reason we want. Is that really your position with respect to murder?

I have to disagree
with the fictitious assertions that countries which outlaw abortions have higher rates than countries which don't. Baloney. This country alone (voluntarily) aborts over a million babies each year. With the exception of (liberal) countries in Europe and China, which is pro-abortion, I bet my bottom dollar that these posters are delusional liars.

Robert
states: So far the "pro life" people have been spectacularly unsuccessful in moving the public debate.

That should read: so far the "anti life" people have been spectacularly duped by the devil.

Abortion is Selfishness & Faithlessness
It is telling God that you do not trust Him to provide for you and your child. If you are faithless, atheist, agnostic, "spiritual",
"exploring your Chakras", New Age, or an ignorant Liberal Christian who only wants God on YOUR own SELFISH terms at arm's length in a little box, you can always put your child up for adoption unless of course you're a "wiccan" in which case I guess you have no other choice but to sacrifice your child to Satan. Abortion is such a litmus test for a politician for those of us who classify ourselves as Conservatives and Christians because if a politician can't make a simple moral judgment as clear as day as protecting COMPLETELY INNOCENT life, how on Earth can he be trusted to make decisions that are grey like the Death Penalty for accused murderers.

That's OK Truetolife
Captain Coward(aka Wobbie/Robert) states a lot of things. 99.99% of them are lies.

So Wobbie, have you found out how much it'll cost you to have us sing at your wedding yet?

Anyone have a comment?

Did you notice, here it is, the sun almost going down, and not one person has commented on my hard and fast opinion of Abortion. Why is that?

I will be back in the morning to see if anyone, left or right, got the nerve to comment.

This isn’t just a new idea, that has been my opinion for 65 or 70 years, when I first heard of the word.

"I am absolutely against an abortion, unless the alternative is worse."


It dawns on...
me that the, so-called, conservatives on this site are very anti-American. The cannot see the correlation between there own desires for our country and certain middle eastern countries [think Iran].

In these countries, gay marriage and abortion are illegal, as is blasphemy. That is what happens when liberty is taken away and a single religious opinion takes precedent over freedom.

DA,
What happens to freedom in countries such as Vietnam, Russia and China who don't believe in God? By the way, it was Christians who founded this country and wrote our laws. I think they were pretty pro freedom, weren't they?

Awww, Wobbie the Cowardly "Captain"
Ran away from me again. I feel so bad.


NOT!!!!!

Run Robert you coward, RUN.

Additionally DA,
I doubt the Founding Fathers would have approved of or legalized abortion or murder. Your points are off base.

No Robert,
These Englishmen just happened to be Christians weren't they? The rest of your rebuttal makes no sense, as it is filled with half truths.

We have no right to do wrong
(Ranger29): "When can the state through the collective wisdom of the masses impose its will on an individual in opposition to their (the individual) will."

What's your alternative? Anarchy? Everybody be a law unto themselves and do their own thing without restraint? Maybe that would be your preference, but I'll stick with a civil society governed by laws that secure and protect the inlaienable rights of us all.

"So far the "pro life" people have been spectacularly unsuccessful in moving the public debate."

A lot of progress has been made and the cause is just. So don't be so sure of yourself just yet.

DA

You don't get it do you?

When a woman has unprotected sex and gets pregnant, she has given permission for a baby to live in her body.

Robert
states:
God does not judge nations or send nations to heaven or hell...he judges people as individuals and how they act in His word as individuals and how they as individuals have faith in their lives.

Duh. Which is EXACTLY why pro life activists who believe in the right to life for ALL will continue to fight the good fight. We KNOW that the homosexual agenda is tied in tightly with the abortion issue. If you don't, then you're either in denial or just dumb. If Roe vs. Wade were to be overturned, the homosexuals would crap themselves even more than they already do.

Robert
Well at least now I know that you're in denial as well as dumb. There is no right to privacy in the Constitution. That is why homosexuals need activist judges--they know that majority rule would never work out for their agenda. Why do you think that all homosexuals are going to hell? You shouldn't be so judgmental. Only God can judge what is truly in a person's heart and whether or not that person has taken the time to have an "informed conscience." That includes not dismissing things that people say just because they are Christian.

you never know....
God may be trying to reach you right now.

Huh?
(Ranger29): "sure we can do wrong
as an individual in The Creators eyes and still be well within the law of The Republic."

Apparently, your only objection to the law of the Republic is when it interferes with your desire to do whatever you wish, right or wrong. I hope you're not serious, but I know there are people like that. You may want to give some thought to where you are headed in life. Whenever you're ready to be serious, I'll be glad to try to have a constructive discussion with you on this issue.

I see
when the lights go off Wobbie the cockroach sneaks in.

jim
I did answer your post you are just ignoring it because you didn't like the answer.

Anti-Christian State...

The state as envisioned by the socialists can be counted on to take the opposite view of our founding documents. Rather than protecting the life of its unborn citizens and taking the life of capital criminals, they freely allow abortion for any reason without restriction while doing everything imaginable to prevent lawful executions.

And when a child is born, they are about usurping the rightful authority of parents to raise and educate their own children. They openly deny the spiritual heritage of our forefathers and withhold and deny the gospel message that is full of hope from the triune God that saves sinners.

How did a once liberty loving people become socialists? Why do socialists deny the gospel of the kingdom of God?

truetolife
All this bickering over people who make bad decisons, I say forget them!!!! Let the homo's be homo's or is that gay I never know which one they want to be called LOL Anywy The abortion nutjobs too forget em they make the choice they must deal with and I believe that if we stop talking about it and let them be it would be the best way to win or should I say at least deminish their ranks. With any hot topic like this Coverage of any kind is good for them and not us. If you don't belive me look to Leftywood it is perfect evidence of how media coverage works. So lets talk about how we are going to move forward the real conservative agenda of the issues that matter most!!!! Like smaller govenrnment, lower taxes and ensuring the safety of Americans for many years to come. We must do this by returning to a robust economically unstopable superpower that has its own engery and carries the banner of free people. A light in this dark world!!

Nothing worse?

Lolo1 Location: CA
Reply # 156
Date: Aug 12, 2008 - 11:17 PM EST
Subject: jim
I did answer your post you are just ignoring it because you didn't like the answer.

========
I am not a woman, so that's not a decision I ever have, or ever will have to make.

Are you saying there is no alternative that is worse than abortion? Like being thrown in the trash can, flushed down the toilet, starving to death, being eaten by bugs, and on and on, all those terrible things I don’t want to even think about.

The mother can have other babies when and if she is in a better position to have a baby, and take care of it.

If the idea is that more children should be born, why don’t all the lady posters on TH have about 20 children. It’s possible, isn’t it?


Pope Leo XIII (sage words)
"When a society is perishing, the true advice to give to those who would restore it is to recall it to the principles from which it sprung."

So--those of us who heed sage words will continue the good fight. We will let nothing stand in our way. We will be faithful servants. God does not ask us to be successful, He just asks us to be faithful. And so we will. So. Let's get to it. Let's get out there and educate!!!!

Lon
"To see that abortion rates tend to decline under democratic administrations and increase under Republican ones, one simply needs to look at the abortion data over the last few decades."

Let's look at the data then:
http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm

or

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html

If you'll notice, the data shows that the number of abortions increases in the Carter administration, levels off in the Reagan/Bush era, and goes down in the Clinton administration and is STILL going down in the Bush administration.
This tells me that the rate has little to do with the party in power.

Prescription for loving parenthood
"And as far as making people responsible for the "consequences" of their behavior, well, that doesn't really sound like a prescription for loving parenthood."

To me, a loving parent DOES teach responsibility for their children's actions. Just because they are "made" to be responsible for their actions does not discount how much they love their child. This seems to be the problem with society today. No one is expected to be accountable for their actions and no one takes responsibility for what needs to be done. I'm sorry, but if a woman/girl becomes pregnant, it doesn't seem too much to ask that she decides what she is going to do within the first trimester. I left out the man/boy because he doesn't have the right to ANY part of the decision according to the law (unless of course he's forced to be accountable through the payment of child support).
A loving parent will teach their children morals and if they make mistakes, then a loving parent will teach them how to make the best of a situation that they CHOSE (they chose to have unprotected sex therefore, they chose to have a baby) to be in.

Obama became
an unequivocal MURDERER when he stopped the passage of the Born Alive Infant Protection Act.

He would not even allow a child rapist to be treated on death row the way he WILL ALLOW a poor helpless fetus to be treated by the healthcare industry.

And if he can allow a fetus to die on a gurney in a hospital hallway ...

JUST WHAT DO YOU THINK HE WILL ALLOW TO HAPPEN TO YOU UNDER THE OBAMA HEALTHCARE PLAN?

The trip from cradle to grave will be a lot shorter under OBAMACARE ...

IF YOU EVEN GET TO THE CRADLE!

OK Let's try this one more time...
Not everyone in our FREE country believes that a blastula is a baby.

If you right wing religious nuts out there want to stop abortion, why not teach the kids about BIRTH CONTROL!!!

"Oh No! We can't do that!"

Why?

"Because God said it's bad."

Well then let's get God to make kids wait for sex until they're ready to have kids.

He's had a lot of time to do that. And all y'all's praying for it just hasn't worked. So how about let's let the kids use some birth control so we don't have to abort fetuses or have a million more unwanted babies.
Sound good? I knew it would.


wes
I agree with some of what you said. The problem is that most of the same people that think a blastula is not a baby also don't think a fetus is a baby or even a live baby from a botched abortion is a baby. Sometimes I wonder if they think a child is still not worth saving.

Methusela, you take it too far.
No one is "Pro Abortion" No One.

Religious people want to force welfare mothers (most of whom are Caucasian contrary to popular opinion by the way.) to have kids that they can not care for or afford. They want a working woman who is pursuing her life long ambition to have to give it up to raise a child for whom she is not ready, thereby becoming a burden instead of a blessing to society. They want to *force* women and young girls who are raped by their fathers and husbands to have to carry that blastula to term and raise it. Forever a reminder of the horror that they survived.

Where is the compassion for the already living? Why does a ball of cells have more rights than a sexually mature human?

It may not be what those religious people would choose, but what those other women choose is their business, and the right wingers in our country want to take away that choice. That's China. It's not part of American values.
Nobody wants to kill babies, that's why birth control is the best way to go. There's no baby if dad's sperm hits a roadblock. We no longer live in the dark ages, let's act like it.

And the republicans that most religious people support by voting on ONE issue (abortion) are the same people that want to cut programs that help single moms. Cut programs that provide good food for poor kids in school. Cut programs that teach art and music to kids that otherwise would never be exposed to such things.

And all because Dad can't wear a rubber, or mom can't be on the pill.
religion is the opiate of the masses unless you vote with your brain.


Call me flipper
If they can do what republicans can't, or won't, do and repeal Roe vs. Wade....Sign me up. If they can make that happen I will be a lifetime member.

Wes...
you sound Pro-Abortion to me. Just like the rest of them. Your moral ambiguous points are senseless.

If you only steal a little your not a thief, etc.

Doesn't work.

You advocate might is right. Because a women can find reasons and she is holding that babies life in her hands she has the right to kill it.

That will never work for many people, especially ones who KNOW that unborn child cannot stand up for itself against your "my logic rules" approach to principles.

Retired geek
---When a woman has unprotected sex and gets pregnant, she has given permission for a baby to live in her body.---

No they don’t, that’s ridiculous. That is like saying that by crossing the street, you are giving cars permission to hit you. Looking both ways before crossing the road serves the same purpose as birth control, avoid an un-intentional outcome.

This is what I mean by anti-American. You are trying to impose your beliefs on others and take away their freedom of consciounce.

chris
---Additionally DA,
I doubt the Founding Fathers would have approved of or legalized abortion or murder. Your points are off base.---

There are several reasons that this argument is fallacious.

-Abortion was available but not illegal at the time of the nations founding fathers

-They were not privy to the modern knowledge concerning fetal development and pregnancy

-Women were not given the same rights as men

-They approved of slavery

QUESTION FOR ALL
If as some on here have stated that life begins when the baby is born then why is it if you kill a woman that is pregnant that they charge you with TWO murders instead of ONE?

We all know this to be true becuase we seen and read about this situation with the PETTERSON case in California

WHAT SAY YOU JIM(CA) this happened in your back door

DA and other Abortion Advocates
A sexual act between a male and a female is an implied contractual agreement between two consenting adults or it is Rape, Incest Rape or Statuatory rape and all are covered under existing law.

Birth control is a matter of conscience NOT of law.

The taking of human life is NOT a matter of conscience but a matter of law.

I am a strong believer in 'Individual Rights' and NOT a believer in a 'Democracy' but in a 'Constitutional Republic', which America was founded on.

1) Democracy = mob rule, if a group of citizens decide to hang some one, all involved would have a vote, even the one being hung in a 'Democracy', the mob 'vote' would rule.

2) America was founded as a 'Constitutional Republic' and has two principle elements: A Republic is controlled by Law, therefore a Republic does not control Law. The United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights gives every American Citizen the same 'Rights and Protections' no more - no less.

The 'Individual Citizen' in America is the smallest minority group, NOT some 'collective group' comprised by gender, race or ethnic origin.

When an American Citizen or a 'collective Group' of American Citizens are granted rights and protections that does NOT apply to every other American Citizen that violates the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Activist politicians and activist judges have 'granted' rights i.e. Affirmative Action to 'collective groups', which is a 'Direct Violation' of the Rights and Protections of every American Citizen NOT in those 'collective groups'.

The 'fear' of Abortion Rights advocates is, that a different set of Activist Judges may reverse 'Roe vs Wade'.

Abortion Rights advocates should petition their elected representatives to pass a law concerning Abortion and if NOT ruled Unconstitutional, would make those Abortion Rights the law under a 'Constitutional Republic' and the matter would be settled by the law of the land.

wes
your last post pretty much sums up all that is wrong with this country. Rape and incest abortions account for less than one percent of all abortions performed (most are for convenience or some other dark reason). Those women who do give birth to babies born out of rape and incest report that they have been the biggest blessings of their lives. Parents could start doing their jobs. My husband and I have raised 3 girls (all of them chaste until marriage). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to teach our children the difference between right and wrong and keep an eye on who they hang out with and where they are. It's our job. Then you refer to China as taking away "choice." Don't forget. They also take away the "choice" to have more than one child. The comparison is moot. And why should the U.S. compare ourselves to any other country? We USED to be the country that others compared THEMSELVES to. Because we had it right. Why do you think our popularity in the world is going down the drain? Besides having democrats in this country, it is because we have given up our basis of morality on which this country was founded. You need to grow up.

wes
and if abortion is all about "choice" then why am I forced to give Planned Parenthood my tax dollars? Why can't I force you to give your money to my pro life agency??

Will - CA
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY / ACCOUNTABILITY

Can you understand either?

Our nation is going under rapidly due to all the "individuals" demanding the right to inflict their little idiosyncracies on those who choose instead the accept the right AND responsibility to make sound personal decisions.

As to the subject of this column, David, thank you for bringing up the absurdity of the Democrat Party to ignore the majority of Americans who do value life! Life begins at conception!! and anyone who believes otherwise has not carried a child in their womb or looked at a sonogram or listened through a stethoscope to a babie's heartbeat!!!!!!!

correction
a "baby's" heartbeat!

On Ron Paul's Bill
Sugary Sweet:
"... Ron Paul tried to do something about...
...abortion-murders....

H.R.2597
Sanctity of Life Act of 2007
To provide that human life shall be deemed to exist from conception."

I cannot buy the idea that HUMAN LIFE begins at conception. Sure the newly-conceived single-cell is alive (it's not dead) but Human just like you & me? C'mon, get real!

If you honestly believe this, and Ron Paul has honestly done anything more than pander to part of his base when he cooked up this half-baked bill, then tell me how Ron Paul and yourself plan to protect the millions of newly-minted human beings you just defined into existence, who failed to implant in their mother's uterus after they were conceived? Shall we continue to just flush them down the toilet or dump them in the trash like we do now? Do you plan to confine all sexually active women to medical facilities where their menses can be painstakingly parsed for microscopic human beings to be saved for later implantation, or to at least be given decent last rites?

High School and freshman Bio classes tell us that more than half the fertilized embryos do not implant, or implant and then detach shortly afterwards.

If the woman seeking an abortion must regard the embryo as a human being from the instant of conception, than so must the rest of us.




On Ron Paul's Bill, II

At the other end of the pregnancy process, it's obvious to me that a newly-born baby is a human being just like you & me, and I don't see how it could be any less human the day before it was born. The later in the term of pregnancy that an abortion occurs, the more uneasy I am that murder may be being committed.

Down anybody have any good source for a distribution of what percentages of Abortions are performed at what distance into the term of pregnancy? Just how many, or what percentage, of abortions are really those 'late-term partial birth' flashpoints that all the pro-life types in this column love to rant about?

Barely Worth a Reply
CharletonHeston:
"Flaming Liberal Idiot
You too, should bend over and grab your ankles Bro...."

Surely there are many other far more appropriate websites where you can indulge your fixation on Anal Sex fantasies.

Flaming Lib
So a human is only a human if it looks like "you and me?" Is this determined solely by appearance or also by activity? Blacks look different from me! Shall we go back to treating them as less than human? We can kill everyone with defects and disabilities, too! They don't behave like a "normal" human! I have seen burn victims that barely resemble a "normal" human, shall we just get rid of them, as well?

I guess these ideas might make you "uneasy," but I find them abhorrant!

Your earlier statement about eggs that fail to implant is absolute nonsense. Women have no control over implantation (other than abortifacients). They can control whether or not to have an abortion.

"If the woman seeking an abortion must regard the embryo as a human being from the instant of conception, than so must the rest of us."

If one person accepts a lie, everyone else must also accept the lie? If I determine that you are less than human, then everyone else should just accept that as fact!

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness~ In Order of Importance!

Flaming Lib
Addendum:

This has very little to do with the views of a woman about her privacy, and everything to do with the absolute equality of human life.

(Except flaming liberals - I have determined them to be less than human...)

Late Term Abortions and George Tiller

Lies about Partial Birth Abortion and Dr George Tiller

"Abortion advocates often deflect negative attention by insisting that late-term abortions are in the best interests of the babies that are aborted. They claim that if the babies are not "terminated", they will live lives scarred by illness. The truth is that the vast majority of the babies condemned to death by late-term abortion are healthy and capable of living meaningful lives."

"There also exists a common misconception that late-term abortions are limited to medical emergencies. Nothing could be further from the truth. From 1998 until 2000, only one out of the 1168 abortions that Tiller performed after viability was done during a medical emergency. Upwards of 97% of his late-term patients weren't even from Kansas—they flew in from other states to have abortions that they had scheduled in advance."

http://www.kdhe.state.ks.us/hci/absumm.html.

http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Tiller.html

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/02/links_to_barack. html

retired geek
---A sexual act between a male and a female is an implied contractual agreement between two consenting adults or it is Rape, Incest Rape or Statuatory rape and all are covered under existing law.---

You’re right, it has to be consensual or it is rape. It is NOT an agreement to have a child. That is your own biased opinion.

---The taking of human life is NOT a matter of conscience but a matter of law---

It is not a person. It has dna, but so does the many skin cells that you shed each day. It does not have self-consciousness. By your definition, it should be illegal to destroy all of those embryos at fertility clinics.

Again, it is moot because one person cannot utilize another person’s body against their will for the purpose of keeping them alive.

---I am a strong believer in 'Individual Rights' and NOT a believer in a 'Democracy' but in a 'Constitutional Republic', which America was founded on.
1) Democracy = mob rule, if a group of citizens decide to hang some one, all involved would have a vote, even the one being hung in a 'Democracy', the mob 'vote' would rule.
2) America was founded as a 'Constitutional Republic' and has two principle elements: A Republic is controlled by Law, therefore a Republic does not control Law. The United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights gives every American Citizen the same 'Rights and Protections' no more - no less.---

I totally agree.

---Activist politicians and activist judges have 'granted' rights i.e. Affirmative Action to 'collective groups', which is a 'Direct Violation' of the Rights and Protections of every American Citizen NOT in those 'collective groups'.---

Again, I agree.


retired geek
---Abortion Rights advocates should petition their elected representatives to pass a law concerning Abortion and if NOT ruled Unconstitutional, would make those Abortion Rights the law under a 'Constitutional Republic' and the matter would be settled by the law of the land.---

There is already case law.

The problem with abortion is that people become so concerned with emotional that they cannot use their brains and actually look at the debate from a rational and constitutional viewpoint. No one likes abortion, but it is one of those unfortunate necessities that we deal with in a free nation. The right to control our body is the most fundamental right, even if someone else pays the price. After all, I have 2 kidneys, how about you?

DA
"---When a woman has unprotected sex and gets pregnant, she has given permission for a baby to live in her body.---

No they don’t, that’s ridiculous. That is like saying that by crossing the street, you are giving cars permission to hit you. Looking both ways before crossing the road serves the same purpose as birth control, avoid an un-intentional outcome."

I think Retired Geek has a point. I think a better analogy would be:
You have a choice of 1) crossing the street by looking both ways or 2) cross the street by using the pedestrian overpass.
If you use method 1 then you may or may not get across the street without getting hit by a car (sex without protection). In this situation, the street crosser is making a conscious decision to take their chances.
If you use method 2 then you will definitely NOT get hit by a car unless an earthquake destroys the overpass leaving you in the middle of the street (sex WITH protection).
Anyway, the right to choose should start with the right to choose protected sex instead of rolling the dice.

methusela
---I think Retired Geek has a point. I think a better analogy would be:
You have a choice of 1) crossing the street by looking both ways or 2) cross the street by using the pedestrian overpass.
If you use method 1 then you may or may not get across the street without getting hit by a car (sex without protection). In this situation, the street crosser is making a conscious decision to take their chances.
If you use method 2 then you will definitely NOT get hit by a car unless an earthquake destroys the overpass leaving you in the middle of the street (sex WITH protection).
Anyway, the right to choose should start with the right to choose protected sex instead of rolling the dice.---

I don't think you understand what I was saying. You can cross the road after looking both ways and still be hit by a car. It is the same with sex, you can use protection and still end up pregnant. I was saying that just because you cross the street, that doesn't mean that you give the car permission to hit you, just like you don't give some unspoken consent when you have sex. My analogy works whether birth control is used or not.

DA
I definitely agree with some of what you are saying. My problem is with women (and men that have no self control) who wait till the second or third trimester to make their decision. If birth control fails (which is pretty rare in the case of condoms unless improperly used) then I would think the day after pill would be the first thing on thier minds.

DA
Yes, your analogy works but if birth control is not used (preferably condoms), then the parties involved are choosing to cross the street where the traffic consists of automated vehicles that cannot stop hoping that they can get across without being hit. If they use protection, there will just be far less traffic. In the case that they get hit by one of the vehicles, THAT'S where the day after pill would help them. Some would say abstinance is the solution. I don't personally, but some do.
Thanks for the banter, it was enjoyable. I better get back to work or I may get in trouble hehe.

methusela
---My problem is with women (and men that have no self control) who wait till the second or third trimester to make their decision. If birth control fails (which is pretty rare in the case of condoms unless improperly used) then I would think the day after pill would be the first thing on thier minds.---

I agree, up to a point. I don't think that people simply wait and change their mind, though. I think that late-term abortion is generally occurs because of new information, such as a birth defect.

Reply to Anominus

Anominus:
"So a human is only a human if it looks like "you and me?" Is this determined solely by appearance or also by activity? Blacks look different...."

Look, I'm just a human, seeing things 'through a glass darkly', but I do have a god-given brain to think with. I can look at how God designed us, and see how he treats the newly-conceived embryo (discarding it some half of the time) and make by best guesses about the humanity of the newly-conceived embryo.

Anonimus:
"Your earlier statement about eggs that fail to implant is absolute nonsense. Women have no control over implantation (other than abortifacients). They can control whether or not to have an abortion."

I'm glad you wrote the above, it gives us a chance to examine the central lunacy of your position. First, you say that life (and you're being sloppy, you mean full humanity) begins at conception. SO, they're one cell big, but they're people just like you and me.

But, even though they are genuine honest-to-God full-fledged 100% American Citizen HUMAN BEINGS, JUST LIKE YOU AND ME, you have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM FLUSHING THEM DOWN THE TOILET OR THROWING THEM IN THE TRASH when you encounter them on a tampon, because "Women have no control over implantation..."

OTOH, should a woman CHOOSE to remove one of these miraculous single-celled genuine honest-to-God full-fledged 100% American Citizens from her womb, she is guilty of murder.

It seems like what you REALLY believe is that the newly-conceived embryo is just a bit of tissue until the instant that a woman CHOOSES to remove it from her womb, and that act of choice somehow magically imparts full humanity to the embryo, thus making her guilty of murder.

I guess you're free to have as WACKY an internal belief system as you'd like. But don't expect to be able to impose your beliefs (especially ones like this) on the rest of us.


FLM
"First, you say that life (and you're being sloppy, you mean full humanity) begins at conception. SO, they're one cell big, but they're people just like you and me."

How many abortions are performed on embryos at that age? That's just a straw man.

If you don't believe abortion destroys a human life, then why do pro-abortionists get so bent out of shape every time someone shows a picture of an aborted baby?

um , that "wacky"
interpretatiion : I guess you're free to have as WACKY an internal belief system as you'd like. But don't expect to be able to impose your beliefs (especially ones like this) on the rest of us.

Except for the fact that abortion was considered murder for all of history until some activist judges "created" their own right to privacy for a woman. How do you know what God's plan for every miscarried baby is??? They may be praying for your conversion right now.....

Replies to Ken & TTL

Ken:
"How many abortions are performed on embryos at that age? That's just a straw man."

If it's just a straw man, than why have Pro-Lifer types opposed RU-486 and other 'morning-after' and 'emergency contraceptive' drugs so vigorously and for so long? Isn't that a direct result of the 'Humanity begins at conception' doctrine?

Bear in mind that unimplanted embryos can take several weeks to be expelled, and they are surely multicellular by that time. All embryos begin to divide before implantation.

truetolife:
"...Except for the fact that abortion was considered murder for all of history until some activist judges "created" their own right to privacy for a woman...."

Umm, I don't know about that. Long ago I read literature from Catholics for a Free Choice saying that the Church never had a position on 1st trimester abortion until the early 19th century. I'd buy that 'somebody' always didn't like the idea....

truetolife:
"How do you know what God's plan for every miscarried baby is??? They may be praying for your conversion right now....."

How could anybody know that? But if we are free to ignore and discard unimplanted embryos ( = miscarried babies) I can't see how any thinking person could hold the woman seeking an abortion to a different standard. That position amounts to "I can treat it as a bit of tissue when it'd be inconvenient for me to do otherwise, but you must always treat it as a Human Being."

FLM
You're mixing apples with oranges. ALL are created by God. We don't create ourselves. On top of that, we're ALL created in God's image. Our bodies of temples of the Holy Spirit. Do you really think that, just because God's mind is infinite and man's is finite that you can disregard ALL life?
Also. Catholics for Choice are not Catholics. They have been separated from the church whether they accept that or not. Moot point.

reply to truetolife
truetolife:
"You're mixing apples with oranges."

How so? I think that all I'm doing is taking you at your word when you claim that "life (again, meaning full humanity) begins at the instant of conception", and following the logical consequences.

truetolife:
"ALL are created by God. We don't create ourselves. On top of that, we're ALL created in God's image. Our bodies of temples of the Holy Spirit."

I'm a Catholic, I believe all of the above.

truetolife:
"Do you really think that, just because God's mind is infinite and man's is finite that you can disregard ALL life?"

Not at all, on the contrary I think that I'm the only one (of the two of us) who's examining what it would truly take for ALL people (and not just the woman seeking an abortion) to actually live according to the belief that humanity begins at conception.

truetolife:
"Also. Catholics for Choice are not Catholics. They have been separated from the church whether they accept that or not. Moot point."

So you can ignore the truth if you don't like the messenger? I cited them solely for the evidence they present that Abortion has not always been uniformly regarded as a crime by all of society.

FLM (choice catholics)
Why would I take a group seriously if I know that they are liars? They are not Catholic--and they are liars. Why would I listen to their messages?
You also are not Catholic. Saying you are Catholic and following the rules of Catholicism are two very distinct realities. If you don't play by the rules you're out! Join a group that changes their rules day in and day out--there are plenty of them out there. It is called "moral relativism." Many churches practice that. I'm so grateful that the Catholic Church stands strong on the moral issues of the day. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. That is what true Catholicism is. Standing with the SAME Triune God.

Reply to TTL
truetolife:
" Why would I take a group seriously if I know that they are liars? "

Again, this is all a minor point, but when a (purported) fact is presented relative to a claim that you made (that Abortion has always been considered murder) and you do not even argue the truth or falsehood of that claim, instead just denigrating the source, you are doing far more than refusing to "take the group seriously". You're being an intellectual coward and hiding behind your dislike of the group to avoid having to examine what they say, perhaps because you fear it would expose your position as wrong.

truetolife:
"Saying you are Catholic and following the rules of Catholicism are two very distinct realities. If you don't play by the rules you're out! Join a group that changes their rules day in and day out--there are plenty of them out there."

Again, it seems like you'll do ANYTHING to avoid confronting the ridiculous consequences of the position that humanity beings at the instant of conception. At least this time you choose an interesting tangent to go off upon, but not one that I care to spend alot of time on. I'll just say that, as best as I can tell, all the Catholic churches I've ever been to are happy to accept people into the Parish even if they don't follow ALL the many rules laid down in 2K years of church history (ex. birth control, etc). Some tenets are fundamental, others less so.

Flaming
I'm sure, if you look around, you can find just about anything that makes you "feel" good. My church makes us very uncomfortable in every single homily. It is doctrinal and isn't afraid to tell people like you that, although you're welcome to stay of course, you're also wishy washy. And we all know (if we're REAL Catholics) what God thinks about "lukewarm" individuals. Good luck with that.

also
if you spent more time with the Catholic Catechism--you would immediately KNOW, through the grace of God, when you happen upon the devil's handiwork. Then you don't have to waste any more time reading what those groups have to say--you have more time for praying the rosary.

flm
"If it's just a straw man, than why have Pro-Lifer types opposed RU-486 and other 'morning-after' and 'emergency contraceptive' drugs so vigorously and for so long?"

Perhaps if people exercised a little more responsibility before they slept together, they wouldn't have these "emergencies." Please don't raise the usual red herring about rape victims, since only one in a thousand abortions are performed on such.

"Isn't that a direct result of the 'Humanity begins at conception' doctrine?"

The word "conception" means "beginning." Thus, it is completely logical to say that life begins at the beginning. You pro-abortionists know that, and that's why you play all these word games with regard to what consistitutes "true humanity."

Ken
states: The word "conception" means "beginning." Thus, it is completely logical to say that life begins at the beginning. You pro-abortionists know that, and that's why you play all these word games with regard to what consistitutes "true humanity."

Yes! So succinct. Thank you.

Replies to Ken & TTL
Ken:
"The word "conception" means "beginning." Thus, it is completely logical to say that life begins at the beginning. You pro-abortionists know that, and that's why you play all these word games with regard to what consistitutes "true humanity.""

truetolife:
"Yes! So succinct. Thank you."

You both disappoint me. You're now playing games with semantics to avoid the issues that I've raised with you.

And not that I care about it, but many people in the pro-choice camp would refuse to admit that an unborn child is a human being the day before it is born. Even though the concepts of "a woman's right to choose" and "a woman's right to control her own body" are real and important to me, I recognize that they do not give any woman the right to commit murder, and it IS possible to delay the decision to have an Abortion for so long that to finally perform the act would be killing a human being. I'm willing to face common sense and reality, even when the consequences are unfavorable to the pro-choice position.

The ridiculous consequences of the doctrine that newly conceived embryos are full-fledged human beings makes that position equally wrong.

FLM
Do you believe that God creates life? When is the body imbued with a soul?

FLM
"The ridiculous consequences of the doctrine that newly conceived embryos are full-fledged human beings makes that position equally wrong."

I repeat, how many abortion are performed at that age? You never did answer that question.

FLM
"You're now playing games with semantics"

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Pro-abortionists play all kinds of word games to try and convince us (and themselves) that a baby is not truly a baby.

Ken
Absolutely! Remember "mass" or "blob of tissue," "products of conception, "parasite," etc. Same as the new buzzwords "born gay" that homosexuals are touting now.