Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Friday, June 27, 2008
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Evolving Standards of Indecency
by David Limbaugh
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Is President Obama's Afghanistan plan a step in the right direction?


The Supreme Court's barring of the death penalty for child rapists in Kennedy v. Louisiana underscores the hazards in the court's abandonment of moral absolutes in favor of "evolving standards of decency" and the court's unbridled arrogance in substituting its subjective judgment for the legislatively enacted will of the people.

In Kennedy, the court reversed the decision of the Louisiana Supreme Court to uphold the capital punishment of a convicted child rapist, holding that the Eighth Amendment's cruel and unusual punishment clause prohibits executing such offenders "where the crime did not result, and was not intended to result, in the victim's death."

A United States Supreme Court with a majority of Constitution-respecting justices would have evaluated the Louisiana statute in light of the originally understood meaning of the cruel and unusual punishment clause.

Instead, today's sometimes Obama-inclined liberal activist majority subordinated to the lowest rung the clause's original meaning in favor of "the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society."

And how does the majority identify that new, enlightened standard applicable to child rape cases not resulting or intended to result in death?

Simple. "The Court is guided by 'objective indicia of society's standards, as expressed in legislative enactments and state practice with respect to executions.'" And the majority, in its infinite wisdom, concluded that there exists a "national consensus against capital punishment for the crime of child rape."

The only consensus that should matter to the court is that reflected by the Louisiana legislature -- a consensus that ought not be circumvented, in any event, by the national will when it involves a matter of state law.

But put that aside for a moment, as well as the court's fallacious analysis -- systematically demolished by Justice Alito in his dissent -- in finding that such a national consensus exists. Let's consider the legitimacy of the court applying an "evolving standard" in the first place to interpret the Constitution.

Does it not follow that if provisions of the Constitution can change by fiat of the high court solely on the basis of its perceived assessment of a national consensus on any particular question, the Constitution's restrictive amendment process -- which requires supermajorities and imposes other hurdles -- is rendered meaningless?

The majority can flower its language all it wants, but in the end, this reference to a national consensus to interpret the Constitution is just a disguised rationale for liberal judicial activism. It's the court's pseudo-intellectual, specious excuse for imposing its own policy judgments on the American people under the cover of interpreting law.

Liberals fashion themselves as protectors of fundamental rights, even as against the "tyranny of the majority." But they only selectively apply that principle, readily dispensing with it when it interferes with their policy preferences.

The Constitution establishes a framework to maximize liberties not by making them absolute, but by pitting competing branches and levels of government against each other and enshrining certain rights and prerogatives that can't be abolished outside of the prescribed constitutional procedures.

If we continue to surrender the more permanent structural framework of the Constitution to the shifting sands of ever-changing national opinions, we'll see our liberty evaporate drip by drip, until we end up like all other great nations preceding us.

But the national consensus analysis, as bad as it is, is symptomatic of the deeper-rooted standard the court insists on invoking with increasing frequency: "the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society."

The very enunciation of such "standards" betrays the majority's abandonment of the Framers' Judeo-Christian-inspired belief in moral absolutes. It mocks the biblical description of man as a fallen creature. It arrogantly presumes -- despite a wealth of objective evidence to the contrary, including the multiplicity of godless atrocities in the 20th century alone -- that we human beings are forever improving on God's moral standards. Of course, that's not difficult to accept if you reject the existence of God.

Are we evolving as a morally mature society when we permit the killing of babies in -- and halfway outside -- the womb? When we permit such obscenely sloppy formulations as "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"? When we glorify so much else that is abominable in the sight of God?

If we are evolving to the point that, on supposed moral grounds, we won't let sovereign state legislatures sanction execution for a sadistic creature who raped his 8-year-old stepdaughter -- giving her "a laceration to the left wall of her vagina" and "causing her rectum to protrude into the vaginal structure," tearing "her entire perineum from the posterior fourchette to the anus" and requiring emergency surgery -- I weep for all of our children and our society.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read David Limbaugh's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
The Meaning of "Absolute"
"the court's abandonment of moral absolutes"

Isn't the doctrine that the death penalty is restricted to cases where the victim is murdered pretty much the textbook definition of an absolute? A bright-line, unequivocal absolute? You're arguing instead for a rule based on feelings, on how much we dislike the perp. That's the opposite of "absolute."

The two-faced Right (sic)
I find it interesting how the Right (sic) flip-flop like stranded fish on the issue of the descisions by the Supreme Court.

They decide Habeas Corpus is a right for all prisoners held on US soil and the Right calls them traitors.

They decide child-rapists shold not be punished the same as murderers and they are vilified (and why does this conjure up images of cute little babies ravaged by monsters?).

Then they decide that D.C. has to allow everyone to have a gun and they are celebrated as Heroes-of-Freedom.

And the Right do not even notice their own arrogance. They are soooo quick to revert to the childish 'If I Were The Ruler Of The Universe...' idiocy.

Evolving Standards of Indecency
The Supreme Court Justices have a duty to protect and monitor the welfare of minor children. There are degrees of child molestation from the thought process to touching to molesing and to violence that ends in death for many of these innocent helpless children. The Justices are ignoring their responsibility and protecting the guilty rather than the innocent, so how many more children must be molested or end up dead. The Justices have a duty not only to render decisions based on the law but to use common sense and render moral decisions that draws boundaries between good and evil or right from wrong.

lindbaughs constitutional activism
if the court cound not and did not use its authority to circumvent state law we would still have slavery. it either has this authority all the time or as you would have us believe it only has it when its decision is to follow when r interpretation of the constitution is the legitimate one.
this decison did not change the provisions of the constituion in any way. it interpreted, and that is its function. there is no more in the constitution that favors the death penalty for rapists then there is that doesnt allow it. if the issue is to be dicided it will be decided on the basis of interpretation., not judicial activism. if the decision had gone the other way would d your really have been able to say =, now the court has decided in accordance with what the original intent of the framers was. no. because you have no idea what that intention was wuithout interpretatuion.what you andyour ilk want to do is reatrict the court to taking a poll with answers coming only from conservative interpreters of the contitution and then saying this is what the right beleives and this is therefore threfore right. please rule accordingly. you may, if you choose , ignore the wishes of th left, even though thosr are legitimate inteerpretations , but the court may not. as for dstates right, the court was basing at least part of its decision on the constitutions guaranteed right to fairness and equal treatment under the law like that interprtation or not it is something that has to be decided on a federal level.

MRCMRC - Sorry
The court did not intervene to eliminate slavery. The 13th Amendment to the Constitution ended slavery.

As stated in Mr Limbaugh's article there was a means provided to us to amend the Constitution and this requires a super-majority in the Congress and super-majorities of the individual state legislature. It was purposely made difficult because the authors of the Constitution specifically did not want the document to be amended to conform to evolving standards of decency or a growing consensus.

Everyone should be concerned about those members of a court that are willing to substitute their judgment regarding policy for the judgment of elected representatives. If anyone truly believes the Constitution to be a living, evolving document then they must prepare for the document to evolve in a direction they might not like.

Sorry Rose
The court does not have a duty to protect and monitor the welfare of minor children. They have a duty to interpret the law. Theirs is not to assure justice. Theirs is to administrate the law. And for forty years they have been doing an awfully poor job of it.

Jindal signs chemical castration bill

What do you think?

2TA-Characterizing sex offenders as monsters, Gov. Bobby Jindal signed legislation Wednesday that would force convicted rapists and others to undergo chemical castration.

“I am glad we have taken such strong measures in Louisiana to put a stop to these monsters’ brutal acts,” the governor said in a prepared statement.

Jindal signed Senate Bill 144 into law on the day that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Louisiana cannot execute people who rape children under the age of 12.

The governor blasted the high court’s decision.

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/jindal-signs-chemi cal-castration-bill

Castration
Three cheers for Governor Jindal !
Castration is definitely the proper way to handle child rapists and ensure that it won't happen again by the same perp.

Proposed by a LA State Senator
allegedly because of a priest found guilty of sexual abuse of children in 1985 and failing to register as a sex offender in the recent past.

The problem is
that rape is one of the most abused criminal accusations there are. For one example last week, Child Welfare was unleashed on a mother because her child (who was retarded) had a teacher WHO SAW A PSYCHIC that told her a child with the initial V was being abused! And the teacher claimed that the child, who operates in a low register, made answers that *troubled* her! Fortuntaely in this case, because the school was guilty of *misplacing* her child, the mother had purchased a GPS that recorded everything that went on around her, and the child wore it day and night, so she could prove that this charge was slander.

We also have cases like the daycare centre that was ruined and everyone working there imprisoned because one mentally ill mother touched off a firestorm of fantasy, calumny and just plain insanity among the children, ALL OF WHICH PROVED FALSE.

In cases where the crime is unequivocal and the damage horrific, there are specific punishments already in place. And if you really want the death penalty, just drop the perp into the general prison population. But because of the large number of false accusations (Duke Lacrosse anyone?) I think it is a good idea not to fix the death penalty for rape.

Supreme Court Child rape decision
How about the rest of the life of the child who was raped. Does anyone think the child ever gets past it? Child rape is one of the most horrible crimes there is. I am with the governor of Louisiana. When you vote, go past the candidate and consider the kind of justices the new president will appoint.

Subject: Supreme Court Child rape decisi
I proper word is "devolving" not evolving.
"Order has devolved into anarchy."

Translating the court
When the Supreme decisions include remarks like "enlightened standard" revolving standard of decency" "national concencus" it usually means that they consulted with a few of their elite, like minded, friends who are as out of touch with reality as they are and decided among themselves what the national concensus, or fill in the blank with whatever, is. They can all now be hailed as compasionate, learned heros of the reupblic at upscale social gatherings attended by only the proper people./

The national concensus among the not so elite I associate with were in favor of giving the bum a fair trial and taking him immediately to be executed; actually I cleaned up some of the suggested means of execution.

Swift and fair justice.

Cruel and unusual?
Since capital punishment for more than murder was common at the time of writing of the Constitution, it was obviously not considered to be "cruel and unusual" punishment. So how is execution for a child rapist that did that much damage to her - which would have resulted in her death if not medically treated - so cruel or unusual? The absolute moral standard has been execution and the court had no legal justification for changing it.

As Limbaugh masterfully points out, there is no evolving standard of decency in society. It gets more corrupt as time goes by.

AudioR10, as usual with liberals, brings in a red herring about false charges of rape. Any case as clear-cut as this one was does not fit in your little scenario. Most child rape cases are clear-cut with the medical evidence.


Glenn Chatfield
I agree with your comments except for painting AudiR10 as a liberal.

While I might disagree with her argument on this particular issue, as a long time reader and poster here at TH, I can assure you that she is by no means a liberal - and she is usually one of the first to eloquently defend conservatism.

Thought you'd like to know.

conservative Ro
without the court making many decisions in many cases after the passage of the 14th amandment, that amendment would have gone theway of many decisions , and laws a,d executvie ordres. Slavery woukld still exist if for no other reason then it was the simplest and easiest way for the north to handle the thunderstorm that they had set loose and dint know what to do with . as it is, knowing what happened to the Black man during Reconstruction and in the period from 1876-1950 do you rerally think that if the supremc court had given the south any opening at all that they would have reverted to slavrehood. as it was, the laws and rules they did passed kept the black man on e step this side of it for over 100 years .

Bob Munck definition of ABSOLUTE VOID
eom

Laying the groundwork
This is just one more ruling in the ongoing attempt of the liberal SCOTUS to remake our society into one accepting of immorality.

First we "free" the citizens to engage randomly in all manner of sexual liasons.

Next we remove any stigma attached to sexual perversion.

Now they are working toward enacting NAMBLA's agenda- legitimizing sex with children.

The "slippery slope" is real for anyone with eyes to see.

The main point here is ...
... who should decide what society's "evolving standards of decency" are, a few who have spent their whole lives in and ivory tower in one small corner of America, or the people through their representatives?

P.S. And since when is "decency" a goal of the law? I thought it was supposed to be justice.

consequenced of child rape
I have a plan for these animals as well as those who commit other horrific crimes - solitary confinement for the rest of their lives, with no possibility of parole. Build cells under prisons. No TV, no computers, no contact with the outside world at all. They can only live with the thoughts of their crime until they die. Food can be lowered into the 6x6 cells. Other than that, they face days and years of nothing but blank walls. Then let other would-be-child-rapists hear about it.

David
The truth is the lib leeches would be executing those they defend.

I suggest, stay away from my kids if you like breathing. Me

http://www.santorumblog.com/index.php/2006/10/06/demand-th at-democrats-condemn-the-aclu-and-nambla/

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseacti on=home.main&tp_preview=true&x=7959345

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Evolving Morality
Let's see, the court protects known terrorists, who will rejoin the forces fighting our troops upon release, and child rapists, whom medical evidence proves will never, ever, rehabilitate. At least they've let us keep our guns to protect ourselves from them and those they protect.

Does it appear to anyone else that they are pushing our society toward vigilantism as the only true form of justice?

Jayperiod
I see it and it sickens me.

I'm sorry, but if someone rapes my son or harms him in anyway, they WILL pay for what they did one way or another. If the court won't fight for justice, I will do it as I see fit (which is exactly what you are stating here...).

So...we are ripping apart the Second Amendment (which is pretty clear in it's statement, but now we get to reinterpret it and dishonor the founders of this country, but that's okay!).

Oh, and let's not forget that we have a Congressman in MA that wants to ruin the lives of child rape victims...because that is justice (and he did receive a letter from me).


American Sweetheart
Here's hoping all mothers feel the same as you.
Heck, dad's too.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseacti on=home.main&tp_preview=true&x=7959345

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

The Supremes got it right
I wondered which of the TH writers would be the first to demagogue the child-rape ruling. And Limbaugh wins the prize (what a surprise).

BTW: child-protection and social-worker groups urged the court to reach the conclusion it ultimately reached.

The groups feared making child-rape a capital crime would encourage rapists to kill their victims.

They feared it would make victims more reluctant to report the crime for fear of putting girls in the position (as in the Louisiana case) of sending their fathers to death row.

Other groups, including those involved in exposing the leathal fallibility of cops, prosecutors and juries in numerous death-penalty cases, worried the Louisiana law would result in the execution of more innocent men.

The thing the court got wrong was the notion our society is evolving and maturing. In an evolved, mature society there'd be no death penalty.

American Sweetheart writes...
"So...we are ripping apart the Second Amendment (which is pretty clear in it's statement, but now we get to reinterpret it and dishonor the founders of this country, but that's okay!)."

PW: Huh?

What do you mean? I thought you people would be celebrating the court's gun ruling.

One Big Reason This was A Good Decision
The essence of system of law is rational consideration, not emotional reaction: the very responses here are examples of why this decision was a good one.

For example, the terms cruel and unusual cannot in any way be considered absolute. They are relative by their very nature!

At one time executing ten year old children for stealing food to live on was NOT considered cruel or unusual. In some places stoning women who have been raped is not considered cruel or unusual.

The idea that the concepts at issue have not changed or should not have changed is unsupportable linguistically, ethically, or politically.

There are other reasons why this was a good decision, and those who argued for this decision included major organization that represent the victims of such acts. But the main reason it a good decision is that it prevents emotional over-reaction.

cruel and unusual
Let me first say that I would have loved the court to have upheld the punishment. That said, Limbaugh misses the mark a little with his criticism. Cruel and unusual are somewhat subjective terms. IF there is a national consensus that capital punishment is an excessive punishment for child rapists, then it seems that is the definition of an "unusual" punishment.

There are other options to protect children from these animals. Life without parole without the special pervert protection that is too often provided.

sedanaman and jay
s someone has to do it. . there has to be a final authority that decides these things, who would you have the prsident? congress . thats fine .. change the constitution, one of the geniuses of the founders is that they recognized this, did nothing when marshall forced it on the court, and they put in in place certain safweguards for the court , always recognizing that thesr had to be near perfect assurances that the court would remain the final authoi=rity.
jay you like vigilanmtism? , become one. nothing to prevent you, just be ready to lose a lot of computer time amd to suffer the penalty that we have, collectively as a society. decided is to be imposed if you act as a vifgilamty. i really get very tired of all these people who advocate ACTION> DO SOMETHING>>> SOMETHING MUST BR DONE> and then sit on their duffs and type emails. do something.

Perry and Sweet Heart
America's sweetheart comment on the recent 2cd amendment case is an example of why those who oppose the SCOTUS on the rape case are way off base.

The DC SCOTUS case did not and was not an attempt to rip "apart the second Amendment." THat decision AFFIRMED the private ownership argument and reversed 35 plus years of the opposite idea. But AMerica's Sweetheart has bad facts, a simplistic approach, and an emotional reaction. That's a bad combination and shouldn't be involved in capital punishment considerations.

What if there is a God ?
Rather than argue that there is a God ,and liberals are by nature perverted,consider the shock one will experience when they die and wake up to face The Creator ,if a creator does exist and there is a moral absolute.Read the first chapter of the New Testament book to the Romans.This is historically the most acurate document known to man .If there is a God ,and the Bible is acurate,then you will lose the case for your soul.Think about that.

Apolgies
to AudioR10 for including her with liberals. But I do find that sort of red herring comment a normal reaction by liberals. I was guilty of a logic fallacy.

As for those who think it was a good decision just because organizations who work with children thought it best, I say "Phooey"! very often those very organizations - DHS, Family services or whatever name they go by locally - bring more harm to the children than protection. So I give them no credence.

The idea that child rapists will therefore murder their victim is ridiculous; that just puts them squarely in the capital punishment line for murder. The idea of deterrence is to make them think BEFORE the rape. Raping a woman - and especially a young girl - will give them a lifetime of emotional trauma, especially when that sort of physical damage takes place and can also give them life-long medical problems, as well as the inability to have children. That sort of destruction to life deserves the ultimate punishment.

Hambones
Please tell me why I, a law-abiding citizen, must pay for someone so sick as to do something as that described in this article to live a life of luxury. Since the ACLU fights for 5 star hotel accommodations for animals like this, we, the tax-paying public, now must provide access to the internet where they can continue to feed their pedophilia, subscriptions to pornographic magazines, all the while, these creeps are forbidden to work an honest days work. No, thanks. Someone who does this, who will never rehabilitate according to all research, deserves death.

Also, you do realize that they put these bozos in solitary because if they were released into the GP, the other criminal would kill them first chance they got. Says something when the dregs of society think people like this are scum.

PW
I disagree with the ruling because it is taking away RESPONSIBLE American's rights.

Having a ban on guns isn't going to make criminals just simply not carry guns anymore. If someone is going to break the law, they are going to do it and no gun ban is going to stop them. It's not like a man or a woman intent on killing someone is going to say "Well, since there is a ban on guns I better not do this." A criminal is a criminal for a reason: They do not respect authority and laws.

I don't consider any neighborhood completely safe, despite what some may say. Crime can and will occur anywhere and we have a right to protect our families. No gun ban is going to change that. If someone wants a gun, they will get one. But most Americans, I believe it is fair to say, can handle that right in a responsible and honorable manner.


This
another progressive attack on the sovereign will of the people. It's amazing they ruled
and the operating word is "rule" that we could
keep our guns. Rush put into words yesterday what I was thinking, where do the four dissenters get off trying to amend the Constitution? The Congress has (for it's own reasons) allowed the Courts to usurp their powers and the Executive Branch. We need a majority of Constitutionalists that won't be
afraid to use impeachment against rogue judges from Scotus to the lower courts.

Wasn't it Bork who said we are"defining decency down?" The rulings in favor of indecency have
grown as fast as the rulings against the Constitution have shrunk.

Jay period
I agree with you again. My dad and I were actually speaking about it last night and he said the same thing. Why should his tax dollars and mine be spent keeping alive people whom committ the most heinous crime? I think cruel and unusual punishment is kind of out the door when you completely defile an innocent child whom cannot most likely defend his or herself and probably doesn't fully understand the crime against them.

And I was not giving an emotional response. I firmly believe that gun bans are useless because criminals are not going to just magically say "Well if it's banned I better not do that!" If they did, well they wouldn't be criminals now would they?

It's simply my opinion. It doesn't make me right or wrong and it doesn't make how other people think on this right or wrong. We simply disagree on the subject.

The Victim Be Dammed!

How interesting, and sad, it is that this court decision is but another step away from the rights of the victim of such crimes. Since the days of Chief Justice Warren, we have witnessed a move away from the rights of the victim infavor of a feel-good accomodation of the rights of the criminal. There is nothing rational in this evolution away from our nation's original moral compass.

Chuck

John McCain
I am a very disenchanted Conservative Republican.
I was so disgusted, I had not planned to vote this time around. However, even though I don't completely trust McCain to fight for getting justice(s) that will interpret the constitution, this is too important to leave to Obama and those like him. Between protecting our constitution and protecting our troops, I must vote and I must vote McCain.
So in many ways, the Liberal Justices will have activated me and I'm sure many other disenchanted Republicans to Vote.
The Irony of it! Almost makes you want to laugh.

Judicial Activism
Conservatives and Liberals view the Constitution differently. Conservatives revere the words of the Constitution, even if and when those words operate against Conservative ideology. If there were no 2nd Amendment guaranteeing the right to keep and bear arms, Conservatives would object to a SCOTUS ruling that held that there was such a right and propose an Amendment to that effect. Conservatives today do not accept the Dred Scott decision because it was judicial activism not supported by the words in the Constitution. That is the problem with judicial activism; it can cut both ways.

Liberals revere not the actual words of the Constitution but what they perceive to be the ‘spirit’ of the Constitution; which ‘spirit’ they understand to be, well, Liberal. Anytime the words of the Constitution would seem to disallow a Liberal ruling, they believe those or other words in the Constitution and whatever penumbra they can stretch those words into should be used to justify the ruling they desire. That is what they mean by a ‘living document’. One that allows the ‘correct’ decision in any particular case as they see it.

Conservatives view the Supreme Court as one of three equal branches of government. Liberals view it as the final arbiter of right and wrong which, because such can not be articulated in specific words that would always quarantine rulings with which they agree, must be based on the Constitutions ‘spirit’ in the light of particular situations rather than on its words.

Liberals do not fear or even acknowledge, as Justice Bork tried vainly to point out to them, that judicial activism motivated by other than Liberal ideology could, as happened in the Dred Scott, case, be used to justify rulings with which they would disagree. They fear only that ‘strict constructionist’ would disallow the kind of Liberal judicial activism with which they have achieved so much of their social agenda that they could or did not achieve Legislatively.

jayperiod
If you read my post more carefully you would have seen that I hoped the court would uphold the punishment. The reality is that the death penalty is a very expensive punishment, probably more so than life in prison. There are lawyer fees and endless appeals. I am aware of the protection given them, that is what I was alluding to in my first post. Do away with it, feed them old baloney sandwiches like Sheriff Joe does in AZ, and make them watch the View 24/7.

svpallava 8:58 AM EST
"Bob Munck definition of ABSOLUTE VOID
eom"

I'm afraid your comment doesn't convey any message to me. Are you requesting a definition of the term "absolute void?" Are you declaring my definition of "absolute" to be void? "eom" generally stands for "end of message" but perhaps you had some other meaning for it here, or were misspelling something else.

Perry White
In an evolved, mature society there'd be no death penalty. This may be true but... In an evolved, mature society there would also be no child rape.

Just what is your proposal for how the evolved, mature portion of society deal with the unevolved, and immature portion?

Evolving Standards of Decency
At some times and places, standards of decency "evolved" to justify killing women because they are adulteresses, or killing people because they are Jews.

Standards of decency do not evolve any more than gravity evolves.

Who Should Decide?
"
BTW: child-protection and social-worker groups urged the court to reach the conclusion it ultimately reached.

The groups feared making child-rape a capital crime would encourage rapists to kill their victims.

They feared it would make victims more reluctant to report the crime for fear of putting girls in the position (as in the Louisiana case) of sending their fathers to death row.

Other groups, including those involved in exposing the leathal fallibility of cops, prosecutors and juries in numerous death-penalty cases, worried the Louisiana law would result in the execution of more innocent men."
That is an issue that should be decided by lawmakers and voters, not courts.

Blessing in Disguise
Fine! Put these animals in The General Population wearing a T-Shirt that describes their crime in detail. They will be BEGGING to be gassed inside of 24 hours.

Glenn
You write:

"The idea that child rapists will therefore murder their victim is ridiculous; that just puts them squarely in the capital punishment line for murder."

Glenn, that's the point. If the perp is already in the capital punishment line, killing the victim makes no difference. Killing the victim eliminates the primary witness and becomes the perps best shot at avoiding capital punishment.

That is the argument made not only by social service organizations, but also by police departments and victims rights groups. I do not find it convincing, but it seems to have some merit.



DJ asks...
"Just what is your proposal for how the evolved, mature portion of society deal with the unevolved, and immature portion?"

PW: That's what prisons are for.

Raymond
I am always amused by people who write lengthy screeds telling us what "liberals" think. It appears to give you some comfort: but don't think you have particularly accurate sense of what people think. I am a car carrying liberal and I certainly do not think in the way you describe.

Nonetheless, it is a very common tactic used by right wingers. For example, I posted several reasons why this decision was a good one. Instead of addressing any of those issues, you prefer to trot out straw man.

Kill the rapist
He earned it
Let the laws of the state prevail
What's so hard about that?
If a bunch of nut tried to do to one of you what this rapist did, you'd be begging for someone to kill 'em. Ivory Towers and thin air make for flawed analysis.

DJ and Munkie Man
Munk--I read that as him succinctly saying YOU are an absolute void. Now whether he means you are vacuous, or that you remind one of the results of voiding remains a moot (as in open to further debate) question.

DJ The Evolved Mature Society deals with that portion that refuses to Mature and Evolve the same way Evolved Species deal with Species that don't Evolve.

You wipe them out.

You don't hang a child rapist for raping the child, you hang him for being THE KIND of person who rapes a child.

Same way you would shoot a dog that has gone rabid.

Or a wolf.

Call it a kind of Natural Selection, policing up the Gene Pool, Protecting the Herd from Harm, and Aiding the Evolving Process if you like.

Higher Species don't tolerate Rogue members.
Only Humans seem to want to nurture their own worst enemies. I don't see that as Maturity or Evolvement, or even a Survival Trait. More a death wish from Misplaced and Misappropriated Guilt.
Screw That.
Some guy rapes kids, I want him dead.

EOM

the big mick

sandrob writes...
"...even though I don't completely trust McCain to fight for getting justice(s) that will interpret the constitution, this is too important to leave to Obama and those like him."

PW: Seven of the nine justices are Republican appointees.

sandrob: Between protecting our constitution and protecting our troops, I must vote and I must vote McCain."

PW: How is prolonging the occupation likely to protect the troops?

sandrob: "So in many ways, the Liberal Justices will have activated me and I'm sure many other disenchanted Republicans to Vote."

PW: Again, there's at least three Republican appointees in every five-vote majority.

BTW: Anybody who thinks "movement justices" aren't "activists" believes in fairy tales.

Face it. Supreme Court justices are political hacks.

Indeed
"Glenn, that's the point. If the perp is already in the capital punishment line, killing the victim makes no difference. Killing the victim eliminates the primary witness and becomes the perps best shot at avoiding capital punishment.

That is the argument made not only by social service organizations, but also by police departments and victims rights groups. I do not find it convincing, but it seems to have some merit.
"
Indeed, this is why I disagree with making child rape a capital offense.

But the Court stepped over the line on this one. It is the elected officials and voters who should decide.

Greg
Flawed analysis? You wouldn't't know a flawed analysis if one punched you between the eyes.

Your "analysis" would allow a state government to mandate the immediate execution of any ten year old guilty of stealing a piece of bubble gum.

Jack
Your reasoning on the merits of the decision are based, at best, on anecdotal accounts--many of them hear-say---no hard core facts. I assure you that there are no repeat child-rapists post hot-squat, vet visit, or noose necktie knotting.

OK, Jack
I'll take on your "arguments" and your detached emmotionless pseudo-rationality, Dr. Spock.

I would first suggest to you that your a priori assumption that "Emmotion Bad, Logic Good" IS an EMMOTIONAL reaction. One appeals to you more than the other on strictly visceral grounds as opposed to any Rational or Objective Standard.

The Scientific Evidence does not yet exist that Justice Does Not Have, Cannot Have, and Should Not Have an EMMOTIONAL component, or that Justice arrived at by such means is DE FACTO and automatically less Just or Reliable or EFFECTIVE then Justice Arrived at by mere logic.

I would suggest that the STANDARD of Justice as coming from 12 Good Men and True as a Jury of your Peers IS MEANT to BUILD IN an EMMOTIONAL indeed EMPATHETIC COMPONENT! Either or maybe even BOTH for the Accused, the Victim AND the Society that contains them both.

That that does not appeal to YOUR asthetic sense, is again, an EMMOTIONAL reaction on YOUR part, however you cloak it in pseudo-rationality and sell it to yourself.

I would suggest that NOT feeling an emmotional reaction to the rape of a child renders one no more capable of reaching a Just Judgement then a Computer.

I will use my Computer for many things, but Justice is not one task I would think it fit for.

Nor you.

the big mick

Sweetheart writes...
"I disagree with the ruling because it is taking away RESPONSIBLE American's rights. Having a ban on guns isn't going to make criminals just simply not carry guns anymore."

PW: The court didn't impose a gun ban. It lifted one.

dbz77

"But the Court stepped over the line on this one. It is the elected officials and voters who should decide."

In many ways, the COnstitutional prohibition against "cruel and unusual punishment" is the most subjective passage in the Bill of Rights. Given that, the Supreem Court has a greater role in interpreting that passage than in any other.

You might not like the decision, but the court has a major obligation to rule in such cases. State governments and popular majorities are not permitted to write into law legislation that violates the COnstitution. Period.

Prove it Jack
10 year old thief vs. child rapist;
States rights and the law making process--there's you subject line

Use the following analysis format if you want--but your argument will need to be more convincing:

FACTS:
Issue:
Rule:
Analysis:
Conclusion:

Jack...
I would be very interested to hear what you really do 'think' vis-a-vis my comments. I agree it was a long post but complex issues are not simply stated. It was, in fact, longer before I cut it down so it was acceptable by TH. Much of what I took out were qualifiers such as 'Liberals "'seem to" think..' and '"at least this" Conservative believes...'.

Anyway, a constructive discussion would be welcome.

Please note that I did not offer an opinion as to whether or not the 'child rape' decision itself was a good one. That is another issue on which I would be happy to exchange views, but my previous post was directed at the process, not the results of such decisions.

Jack
If that is what the Sovereign People of the Sovereign state wish to do, Jackie, how is THAT ANY DIFFERENT then the Sovereign People delegating the Right to say "NO" to that to the Fed Gov?

Again, your reaction is the opposite of Rational, Logical and Cogent, it is visceral and emmotion. "People Bad, State Bad, Feds Good!"

Nonsense in the strictest sense of the word.

the big mick

PeeWee sayz:
PW: That's what prisons are for.

THAT IS A LAUGH, considering the/you libs are always stomping for reduced sentences for the poor people in prison. Why even bother sending them, since there is no real rehabilitation. Heck, let's let them all run loose.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseacti on=home.main&tp_preview=true&x=7959345

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

thebigmick 12:34 PM EST
"I read that as him succinctly saying YOU are an absolute void."

Ah, that alternative hadn't occurred to me.

"remains a moot (as in open to further debate) question."

That's not what "moot" means.

Please, Big Mick, get some help. Even something as simple as a spelling checker.

Makes sense
First SCOTUS gave rights to terrorists. Then they gave rights to child rapists. It only makes sense that they would allow us to keep guns to protect us from the two above. Now we are paying people not to grow certain crops. And it makes sense that we pay the North Koreans not to grow nukes. Yes, Virginia, liberals do think ... every once in a while.

Jack
OK Jackie, you suggesting a Constitutional Amendment that says "Choke hanging a Child Rapist with Piano Wire and Burning him alive does NOT constitute "cruel" or "unusual" punishment, cause it's only what the pervert deserves." I'll vote for it! Would that satisfy your Emmotionless Constitutional Scruples? (Scruples are by definition emmotional, Jackie).

Now you are arguing that 9 Shumucks disconnected from Realilty and on the Fed payroll for life have a firmer grasp on what is "cruel and unusual" then the Sovereign People of the Sovereign States have. And that these 9 shumucks are ALLOWED to look to the Great Unwashed Left Behind Gene Pool of Europe for their "evolving" concept of Cruel and Unusual, but NOT to the Sovereign People who have to LIVE with the Perverts!

You simply expand my concept of the possibilites of Logic, Jackie.

mick

dbz77 writes...
"But the Court stepped over the line on this one. It is the elected officials and voters who should decide."

PW: This is not a difficult concept. The Founders wrote the Bill of Rights in order to prevent emotional majorities (mobs) from acting with impunity.

It's the American way. Honest.

I think Jack has moved on
Perhaps he is a drive-by-blogger--he spewed Ivory Tower tripe and moved on when the smell got bad.

Raymond
Glad to Oblige, though it may take a bit of space.

"Conservatives and Liberals view the Constitution differently."

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. AS we shall see.

"Conservatives revere the words of the Constitution, even if and when those words operate against Conservative ideology."

I certanly do not think this is true. Conservatives revere their particular interpretation of the words of the Constitution. . For example, I don't think conservatives revere the words "unreasonable search and seizure", they revere what they think it means. Nor do I think conservatives revere the words, "freedom of speech", they revere their interpretation of those words. The same could be said of almsot any aspect of the COnstitution.

To me, it is perfectly clear that conservatives operate under the illusion that the words of the Constitution only mean what they say they mean.








Definitions
Democracy: 5 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner

The 2d Amendment: The sheep is packing and wolves decide to eat dog food

Ah Jackie, you spoiled my FUN!
I thought I was talking to a Lawyer (not to insult you, Remember Samuel Johnson--you know who he is, right? First English Dictionary? Ring a bell? Do you see what's coming? Anyway Sam Johnson said: "I don't wish to speak ill of any man behind his back, sir, but I believe the Gentleman is an Attorney.")
or at least to a Lawyer wannabe.

Now I realize I'm talking to a High School Kid and taking candy from a baby!

Got a dictionary, Jack? I laid a trap for you and you fell right into it.

Look up MOOT! The FIRST meaning is an Angle Saxon deliberative assembly! (Never Read Tolkien? Ent MOOT!?) Derivative meanings, though some usages are termed archaic, argue, discussion, to discuss, debate, debateable, disputed, subject to discussion--need I go on?
Only the LAST definition of the THIRD usage is
"purely academic" "not practical" in the modern (post 1587) usage.(Miriam Webster Deluxe Dic. a bigger better one would tell you more--but this was sufficient to embarass poor Jack)

Jack you obviously fancy yourself some kind of Legal/Constitutional Authority. That's your game.

Mine is words. It is not to your advantage to cross swords with me on THAT turf.

the big mick

I Offer Big Mick
as a signal exampel of what Perry White and I are saying.

Perry's comment that "The Founders wrote the Bill of Rights in order to prevent emotional majorities (mobs) from acting with impunity" certainly seems to apply to Big Mick's statement regarding his support for strangling people with piano wire.

MRCMRC
The point is that it was not judicial fiat. Slavery ended as a result of the 13th Amendment to the Constitution duly passed by 2/3 vote of the Congress and 3/4 of the existing state legislatures at the time. The 14th Amendment followed giving equal protection and declaring those persons who were formerly slaves to be citizens. This again was not judicial fiat. It was a duly passed amendment ratified by 3/4 of the states.

What happened in the last several days is the court subsitituted its opinion based upon evolving standards of decency and what Breyer considers a growing national consensus on the death penalty over the wishes of the citizens of Louisiana. There is nothing in the Constitution that provides them this power except that they gave it to themselves in Marbury vs Madison. In the case of the 2nd Amendment, yes it was a victory for reason but it was 5 - 4 when it should have been 9 - 0. Here four members of the court were willing to declare the 2nd Amendment itself unconstitutional. Why do we give them this power? Because Congress fails to live up to their responsibilities to regulate the courts. Why do they do that? Because there is a dominant belief that the court can achieve what they neither have the courage nor the votes to achieve on their own. But in the end it is they who are hurting themselves and all those who elect them to office. They have simply abdicated their responsibilities in favor of a specific outcome. Someday that outcome may differ from what they want.

Perry White
Didn't he work for Perry Mason?

Peeman, don't be an idiot. The Bill of Rights was meant to keep GOVERNMENT from trampling on the people.s RIGHTS. It's why they call them RIGHTS!, right? It's why the language CONGRESS shall NOT, do thus and so.

In short, Peeman, the Framers trusted MOBS more than they trusted GOVERNMENT!

Read em, its the American Way, honest.

moron,

mick

thebigmick...
"You don't hang a child rapist for raping the child, you hang him for being THE KIND of person who rapes a child."

PW: Does this mean we should be hanging priests with piano wire, too?

Raymond
America's Sweetheart wrote "I think cruel and unusual punishment is kind of out the door when you completely defile an innocent child whom cannot most likely defend his or herself and probably doesn't fully understand the crime against them"

How does this jive with your claim that conservatives "revere" the words in the Constitution.


thebigmick says...
"Jack you obviously fancy yourself some kind of Legal/Constitutional Authority. That's your game. Mine is words. It is not to your advantage to cross swords with me on THAT turf."

PW: Really?

In that case I have a question. Pray tell, what is an "Angle Saxon"?

ah Common Jack
By YOUR ground rules if it's IN the Constitution it is both UNemmotional and NOT a Mob, right?

Can't you at least stick to your OWN a priori assumptions?

the big mick

PW
No hanging with wire---it's cruel and unusual punishment. If the priest you're refering to is convicted of raping a child---if the state with jurisdiction allows for the death penality---if the process sentences him to death---kill him the legally sanctioned way. I do believe the reference to wire was as an example of what IS cruel and unusual punishment--by the way.

Jack the drive-by-blogger is back
The old cut, paste, and instigate may work in you high school civics class but you need more than that if you're going to sit in with the grown-up.

thebigmick 1:18 PM EST
"That's your game. Mine is words."

Words like "emmotional."

PeeW
And being clergy would exempt them from being perverts...how? And entitles them to a different standard of Justice...why?

As Tony Baretta said: "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

Don't you GET it, Peediddy? When you say "screw society and my fellow man and neighbors, I'm going to get mine" you become a THREAT! It is the THREAT that one deals with by ELIMINATING it. The Rogue Elephant, Rabid Wolf "enemies of humanity to be dealt with as wolves are" Model.
See? Making the Playground or Choir Practice safe for the kiddies, like shooting out the Coyotes around the herd.

the big mick

And another thing, thebigmick...
Far be from me to cross swords with a wordsmith such as yourself, but the word eMotional only has one M in it.

Remember when treason
was a capital offense?

Now we slap people on the wrist for exposing top secret government information, or we do nothing at all.

The bleeding heart libs have convinced everyone that nothing deserves the death penalty. Until, of course, one of THEIR children gets raped, then it's a whole different story.

Munkieman!
I'm so sorry, emotional, did that extra m offend your logic or your esthetic (variant of aesthetic) sense? That poor little extra m render the word undecodeable? Set your whole word attack strategy at naught? Render context clues useless, my whole paragraph unintelligible, my point meaningless?

Moot still means what it means, Munk, so does the Constitution, and you, Jackie and Peediddy are still wrong.

If you want to claim victory on technical grounds of misspelling, I'll leave the field to the Superior Grammarians.

the big mick

"evolving standards of decency"????
I'm an independant, and try to see the "death penalty" issue from both sides. The death penalty is only "cruel and unusual" depending on one's personal view, life experience, society and religiously. Some here want to lock a child rapist in solitary for life; good idea, but that's surely "cruel and unusual" to any interpretation of the law. Although I strongly agree an "absolute" punishment is appropriate, it needs to be reversible also. As far as our changing morals; I'd like to see these scum bags that ruin peoples life savings (think ENRON or others); then get a deal and a small fine, doing country club time to get a needle too. They ruin far more lives than one rapist.

royco7
Please elaborate:
- Reversible penality needed so death is too much for child rapist (forgive me if I've paraphrased you)
- The needle is appropriate for embezzlers (forgive me if I've paraphraised you)

Please reconcile these points of view as they seem at odds.

This was supposed to be about GLM-17
At least that's what I thought when I read Dave's Lead. TH has been suspiciously silent on the Gloucester Mass Fertility Cult.

If YOU are interested in the latest GLM-17 Gang Activity click on the underlined name above and read my blog.

So, fun as deconstruction of dis-cogency and emotionalism (one m for the Old Lady English Teachers) is, I really did show up to see if Dave had anything to say about Gloucester Gang-17.

I will leave our superior spellers in possession of the Field and allow their claim to Linguistic Victory on purely technical grounds.

I leave it to the Thread to decide if they won either the Battle or the War of Cogent Constitutional Argument.

I had lots of fun at their expense which is all I care about. Educating them would appear beyond the ability of Aristotle, much less me or Today's Education System.

They is what they is.

Bye Munkie, Jackie, and Peewee!

The Big Mick

GReg, no it was an example of Constituti
onalism.

IF there was a CONSTITUTIONAL amendment clearly STATING that Choke hanging with piano wire and burning was NOT cruel and unusual then, it WOULD NOT BE cruel and unusual in these United States! And Peewee, and Jack, and Munkie would be STUCK with that. IN Constitution GOOD! NOT in Constitution BAD!

mick

thebigmick 1:46 PM EST
"I'm so sorry, emotional, did that extra m offend your logic or your esthetic (variant of aesthetic) sense? ... Render context clues useless, my whole paragraph unintelligible, my point meaningless?"

No, it was:

"That's your game. Mine is words."

Even though it contains no misspellings. Your points attain meaninglessness on their own merits.

Big Mook
Your caps lock seeems to get stuck off and on. You should have it checked.

But to the point.

You write: "Remember Samuel Johnson--you know who he is, right? First English Dictionary?"

Samuel Johnson did not write the first English dictionary. Fundamental factual errors like this just prove your opinion on importnat issues can't be trusted.

"Got a dictionary, Jack? I laid a trap for you and you fell right into it."

I fell into nothing, but you stepped in it. You are mistaking me for someone else.

Greg, my boy
If you have something to discuss, please do so.

If you think juvenile insults are preferable, take it away. You will only become another example of the vacuous conservative.

Jack the drive-by-blogger is back
No, your hit-and-run-blogging doesn't suit me. Go pick a fight and run away somewhere else.

Keep it simple
Evolving standards ?? Yea, right.

I like to keep it simple. Based on the SCOTUS's interpretation of the constitution it is considered cruel and unusual to kill a convicted child rapist. Yet it A-OK (not cruel or unusual) to kill an innocent unborn child.

I'm sure the reason this puzzles me is because I have not yet evolved to the lofty thinking of your average liberal.

Rome - here we come.

To Greg
I'm simply saying that there ARE some instances where people put to death have been innocent, and that's why libs are moving the court. As far as embezzelers, it's not a "violent" crime, but does more damage to more people; but should also be reversible. Maybe like 25 to life.

Evolving Standards??????????????????????
David Limbaugh is so like, like thebigmick from VA. Let us pass a law, expand Big Government, add another eye to Big Brother and not do his job as a responsible member of society.
The SCOTUS did not unleash the hounds of hell by declaring the law of LA, as harsh and unusual punishment.
There are many reasons why child rape is up.
1. Lowering of Moral standards.
2. Provacative and revealing attire for minors.
3. Disrespect for Black and White Women by Rap music artist.
4. No guidence by parents or control.
5. The promotion of children in adult attire in adult situations.
6. Making children the center of attention, by & for, everyones approval and wanting.
7. Surreal and suggestive advertising with children in them.
8. A radical Increase in the number of juvenile pregnancies.
9. The distruction of the White races moral fabric, through unfair laws, practices and over all favorism by peers.
10. Depression and lack of self worth add to these issues, but the `Moral Majority' and `Christian Collalition' only wanted more laws and less helping hands.
Child Rapist are not unlike every other rapist, or criminal. It is get back at us for not being like them. They then have the power and the control.
Pass laws that one remove the bad from society, at the same time as you pas l;aws to keep the bad out of society fairly.
To condemn a person to death for a really bad judgement once is wrong. Second time, it is not, because he didn't learn a thing or didn't want to.

Anti-social behavior ...
A person who would rape a child is an anti-social personality. Anti-social personalities do not view their victims as human; they are an object to be used for gratification and then disposed. This is part of the reason child rapists are rarely one-timers, unless someone kills them after the first offense; once you start to think of people that way, it is easier to keep objectifying. See works on Nazis and objectification for a better understanding.

I've worked more than I care to think about it with people trying to overcome various proclivities, including attraction to children. Those who aren't already completely over the edge want to be stopped; they cannot seem to stop themselves.

I can see why some would applaud the ruling, in that the child did survive the assault. The flip side is that the prison system isn't kind to child molesters (this isn't a myth, and most of the people who pursue kids are easy targets for prisoners with pent-up rage). So in a way, the punishment will likely end up fitting the crime. If these b*****ds are released into the general population in prison, they will likely get to experience what their victims suffered.

The death penalty, and the smaller population on death row, would be a relief for most of these guys.

"Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord."

Yeah, well, I'm not that patient, sayeth me.

Jack Part 1
Good and thank you! Now we are getting somewhere.

I can not disagree that there are specific cases of Conservatives acting contrary to the way I have characterized them. The same, of course, goes for Liberals. We are all individuals. However, in the interests of simplicity and to avoid such cumbersome constructs such as “it seems to me many/most Liberals/Conservatives…” we can, perhaps. agree that such qualification is stipulated and that we are talking general tendencies rather than persistent adherence?

Even then we have our work cut out for us as specific instances are all we have to work with from which we will inevitably conclude different generalities. We call that process forming opinions and it is they that are important as it is they, and not the facts by which we justify them, that actually guide our actions.

I take your point regarding “unreasonable search and seizure” and “freedom of speech”. The former and, in fact, “cruel and unusual punishment”, beg interpretation don’t they?, while instances of violations of the latter can be sited on both sides.

Jack Part 2
I agree that “cruel and unusual punishment” is problematic, particularly as regards ‘unusual”. Many things that were usual or unusual in the past are not so today. Execution by hanging for instance. “Unreasonable search and seizure” would seem to remain more static over time and that, at least, offers an opportunity for its interpretation to remain static. “Freedom of speech” is much clearer although we can and do argue over what constitutes speech.

So there you have it. What do we do? There is no perfect answer. Do we discourage judicial activism that changes past interpretations thereby risking injustices that may result from changing times or do we encourage judicial activism thereby risking separation of powers and rendering judicial decisions subject to unelected political ideology? My preference has been the former followed by Legislative changes to subsequently better address potential injustices due to changing conditions.

Another long one I am afraid but perhaps we can at least trade ideas rather than insults. Interested to hear what you/others think.

Conservative Ron
Location: CO
Date: Jun 27, 2008 - 4:02 AM EST Subject: Sorry Rose
The court does not have a duty to protect and monitor the welfare of minor children. They have a duty to interpret the law. Theirs is not to assure justice. Theirs is to administrate the law. And for forty years they have been doing an awfully poor job of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ron, the lack of oxygen get to your brain or that server case of VD from Denver. For record to all, Denver CO, is according to the CDC, THE, VD capitol of the US.
The SCOTUS is to make sure all legislation and laws written meet and pertain to the word of Law. They do not enforce law, that is States Rights old bean, not Supreme Courts rights.
And as for poor jobs, how many Abercombe & Fintch out fits do your children wear. Pure gutter trash clothing line and advertiser.

Raymond
I agree, with one hesitation. It's kind of inherent to my argument that certain claims are inherently over-stated. Saying "liberals ARE" or "Conservatives ARE" is almost automatically going too far. That's the point and why I try to make appropriate qualifications.

You write: "Even then we have our work cut out for us as specific instances are all we have to work with from which we will inevitably conclude different generalities. We call that process forming opinions and it is they that are important as it is they, and not the facts by which we justify them, that actually guide our actions."

I agree, in a general way. Is the solution then to say we should seek to form our opinions based on actual data and information. And consequently, when new data and information are
provided, we should be willing to revise our opinions accordingly?





royco7
OK--I understand

Application of the death penality in some instances is A-OK with me.

I will say that the certainty of guilt for a given offender must be very high.

I agree that white-collar crime is deceptively distructive---I just have a hard time codifying what aspects of a given white-collar crime would render it a death penality offense--the standards of proof and definitions would be tough to come up with as well.

Some crimes do lend themselves more readily to a clear cut decision (e.g. three or more people see someone commit the same heinous act where the death penality applies). Others do not.

royko7 writes...
"I'd like to see these scum bags that ruin peoples life savings (think ENRON or others); then get a deal and a small fine, doing country club time to get a needle too. They ruin far more lives than one rapist."

PW: Have you been paying attention?

Politicians who crippled regulatory controls are as responsible for Enron as Ken Lay. And Lay did himself a big favor by dying rather than rotting for the rest of his days in a federal prison.

Beyond that, in the wake of Enron the Justice Department has declared war on ordinary business and professional people for offenses as minor as failing to dot i's or cross t's on federal forms.

Federal prosecutors routinely use RICO statutes -- vague, sweeping, draconian statutes specifically crafted decades ago to make it difficult for mob bosses to defend themselves -- against ordinary citizens guilty of little more than working grey areas or violating obscure federal laws they didn't even know existed.

Even some people who were closely advised by attorneys in their business dealings are being railroaded into prison by "aggressive, creative prosecutors" more interested in career advancement than justice.

The federal sentencing guidelines allow prosecutors to plausibly threaten virtually "white-collar" target with decades in prison in order to extort plea agreements.

The club fed thing is utter nonsense. After you've visited a federal prison, then tell me if you'd want to spend 20 minutes in a cell there, let alone 20 or 30 years.

Put another way, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

Reply to reply
1udagudguys
Location: GA

I find that very astute and fully agree with you on this. I for one would be fine with a one time 20-life sentence for rehablitation purposes.
If he could not be rehabilitated then no parole.
But to some this also is cruel and unusual punishment, as Rose stated and others. But I like it.
But we need to remove the overall classifying or grouping people into one class. like the 18 yearold tried as an adult for having granted sex with his 15 yearold girl friend.
Should he now suffer the same fate as the pervert. No, I do not think so.
Court selection and instruction of Jurors must be upgraded as well also the fast no trial badgering by courts, lawyers and police to get the `docket cleared' of the suspect. Back to costly trials no more short cuts.

Raymond
Interesting to compare our discussion with the one immediately adjacent.

You write: "Do we discourage judicial activism that changes past interpretations thereby risking injustices that may result from changing times or do we encourage judicial activism thereby risking separation of powers and rendering judicial decisions subject to unelected political ideology?"

I challenge your premise. The term "judical activism" is meaningless. It is a talking point used by those who disagree with any particular judicial decision. Thus, your question cannot be answered phrased as it is.

The answer to the underlying dilemma is really quite simple. How about we all agree that the system is a good system (it seems to be the best one thus devised) and that civic duty requires us to accept the validity of the decisions made by the system.

This concept seems obvious to me, but I have come to realize that many people can't grasp it. The nature of a civic society is that we agree to accept the outcomes of the civic process.

Or, in teh words of that great philosopher Mick Jagger, "you can't always get what you want."

Perry White/ Enron Sympathizer,,,,,,,,,,
Location: MO
Reply # 102
Date: Jun 27, 2008 - 3:04 PM EST royko7 writes...

Well we all read what Perry wrote. So you think Enron and those crooked SOB's like them. Should not be prosecuted like a crook of the Twenties.
Why????
The acted just like them and violated the very same laws as the Mafioso's did. I think Ricco laws for bums like that don't go far enough.

At least we give you fair knowledge, we are going to pick your pocket. And like any other fair minded Republican, we also dislike paying taxes on our capitol gains. LOL

Ron Ley's death just meant he beat the humilliation of being sent away and having his family lose everything. See by his dying off, any assets set aside as trusts for his family where not in the reclaim of losses filed in court.

Butcher...
Generally it's a good idea to actually read a post before responding to it.

I wasn't arguing Lay didn't cause misery nor that a long prison sentence would have been unwarranted in his case.

My point was that extrapolating from the Enron case to suggest "white collar" suspects are getting off easy is pure fantasy.

Butcher
I think the 18 year old boy friend/15 year old girl friend example you used would fall more into the statutory (sp?) rape catagory and not as much the 53 year old Chester The Molester/5 year old girl rape case.

It was also my understanding that the Louisiana law provided the death penality could apply on the second conviction of raping a child. An option the state had if there seemed to be a pattern of behaviour developing so to speak.

Personally I think the state executing these people is utterly intolerable. The state should allow the rapist to be rehabilitated under the close supervision of the victims father, uncles, brothers, cousins, grandfathers, neighbors........

I calculate one weekend should do it.

Death Penalty vs. Life
I would be in favor of the death penalty if the legal "system" in this country wasn't such a joke (a bad one at that). Here in Texas we have just had our 35th inmate exonerated with DNA evidence. These inmates were wrongly convicted and the latest, Michael Blair, was on death row for, I believe, 11 years. These wrongly convicted inmates spent countless YEARS in prison for crimes they DID NOT commit. The "legal system" as it's loosely called, consists of the police, who lie under oath to uphold ANY case, even one as minor as a parking ticket; the prosecutors, who lie and their only goal is to WIN the case, the truth being irrelevant; and the Judge who works in cahoots with the police and prosecutors to keep the conviction rate up in order to ensure their own re-election. In essence, in Texas if you are indicted or charged with a crime, you stand a 99.9% chance of conviction, regardless of whether you are guilty or innocent. The truth is totally irrelevant. I know this, because I have gone to court over a $30 parking ticket and spent a whole day arguing my case and two of the three police subpoenaed to testify lied under oath and, of course, I lost my case. The prosecutor went after me like I had committed murder and, even though I proved that the police had lied, the verdict was guilty as charged. Surprise, surprise!! They won the case and got their $30. What I got was priceless: a first-hand education confirming what I had long suspected about our legal "system" - that it is a total abomination. I just wish everyone knew this, but most people actually believe there is justice in our legal system. I am a conservative, but because of what I've learned from my own, and others' experience with our legal "system", I could never be in support of the death penalty.

Nice post, patti...
and, regrettably, completely accurate.

death penalty
Perry White Reply # 67 "In a mature evolved society there would no death penalty." No, Perry, in an evolved mature society there would be no rapists.

So, Perry...
...how is patti completely accurate?

In that her being shafted on a parking ticket shows some failing in the way the death penalty is applied, or that some people in Texas have been released from prison after DNA cleared them.

I may be mistaken on this point, but I seem to remember reading that here in Texas of the people cleared by DNA evidence, to date none have been on Death Row, as I said if I'm mistaken on that I will stand corrected. This is not to say that being in prison under false pretense isn't a terrible thing, simply that these people were not on Death Row.

Texas does have what many have called the Express Lane, but I don't recall any of the executions being performed when the guilty verdict was other than "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Not to put too fine a point on it, but
when one considers the size of the adult male member as opposed to the innards of an 8yr old girl, one can only imagine that it would be akin to thrusting an 18-20 inch broomstick into the innards of an adult female. Now if that's not intent to kill, it's definitely an attempt to maim--as it most certainly proved to be with the little 8yr old girl in LA. Being a grandfather of an 8yr old, I cannot even contemplate the agony that child must have endured. In a proven case as egregious as the one in LA, I believe the death penalty should be mandatory. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

leroy...again, it pays to...
read a post carefully before responding to it.

patti said 35 inmates had been exonerated with DNA evidence and one of them, Michael Blair, was on death row when he was cleared.

As of Jan. 2007, there had been 21 DNA exonerations in Texas. But that was a year and a half ago so there may have been more since then. It's possible, too, that some of the 35 were exonerated with other kinds of evidence.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16710829/

Nonetheless, Michael Blair had been on Texas' death row more than 10 years before he was exonerated.

http://texasdeathpenalty.blogspot.com/2008/05/collin-county -da-admits-michael-blair.html

If I thought you were really interested I could provide a mountain of evidence supporting patti's assertion the "justice system" is badly broken.


leroy writes...
"Texas does have what many have called the Express Lane, but I don't recall any of the executions being performed when the guilty verdict was other than "beyond a reasonable doubt".

PW: Unfortunately, like most people you won't discover the truth of patti's post until the "justice system" visits you or someone you care about. Then, of course, it's too late.

I'm sure the reasonable doubt standard was satisfied in the conviction of every one of the more than 200 inmates later exonerated by DNA evidence.

car carrying lib
Jack #63: "I am a car carrying liberal and I certainly do not think..." This is fun, even tho it aint sposed to be. Dropping a few words can change meanings as readily as adding or losing letters from words. Note all the gaffes from the ready word-smiths today! I assume you meant card-carrying, but it did make me wonder what YOUR "liberal" carbon footprint might be and how one offsets the energy expense of carrying a car, instead of the usual manner of transport.

Yes, Leroy, you are mistaken...
The latest exonerated convict was in fact on death row. He was convicted on hair evidence that turned out to be neither his nor the victim's, and eyewitness testimony that placed him (or someone that looked like him) at the crime scene (a PUBLIC PARK) the day before the murder. This could happen to any of us...just be in the wrong place at the wrong time and have a hair on your clothes. That's all it takes to get convicted of a crime you didn't commit and put on death row. The "person of interest" who investigators thought may have been connected to the crime has since died. So all the time that this convict served in prison for a crime he didn't commit, the perpetrator of the crime was running loose, free to commit more atrocities. I'm all for killing criminals, but my point is that we can't trust our legal system to decide who is, and is not, a criminal because the system is CROOKED, BROKEN, A SHAM, how else can I put it??? Believe me, it is. And I don't say that just because I was "shafted on a parking ticket" as you claim. I have been in court on several occasions with various family members, and the story is always the same. If you don't believe it, then you are either naive or walking around blindfolded.

Jim writes...
"Perry White Reply # 67 "In a mature evolved society there would no death penalty." No, Perry, in an evolved mature society there would be no rapists."

PW: On the continuum of life, there's some space between a mature, evolved society and a perfect one.

Bleeding Hearts
Subject: Murders in America
59.2% of ALL murders in America - over 16,000 in 2006 - were committed by black youth under 18 years old - 13% of the entire US Population are blacks.

Liberal solutions caused black children to be raised without a Father - Liberal solutions caused black children to be raised in schools without discipline and God.

Liberals take pride in their solutions and say "We Did All Of This For The Good Of Blacks".

Encouraged by their success - Liberals now want to bring solutions for the "Common Good" for all Americans - 'Collectivism' headed up by Obama-Messiah.

Liberals are cause of much crime
Subject: Murders in America
59.2% of ALL murders in America - over 16,000 in 2006 - were committed by black youth under 18 years old - 13% of the entire US Population are blacks.

Liberal solutions caused black children to be raised without a Father - Liberal solutions caused black children to be raised in schools without discipline and God.

Liberals take pride in their solutions and say "We Did All Of This For The Good Of Blacks".

Encouraged by their success - Liberals now want to bring solutions for the "Common Good" for all Americans - 'Collectivism' headed up by Obama-Messiah.

Liberal Madness
Obama and more Liberal madness
"Obama will create 20 Promise Neighborhoods in cities across the nation that have high levels of poverty and crime and low levels of student academic achievement...to an entire neighborhood from birth to college" Obama Blueprint for Change
------------------------------------------------

Obama is not satisfied that 'collectivism' for the 'common good' has destroyed entire inner cities and entire generations of black youth.

Obama believes that the failure of 'collectivism' (Socialism, Marxism, Nazism etc.) was because he was not in charge.

Over 100,000,000 have been starved to death, murdered and tortured to death by trying to 'help people' for the 'common good'.

Marxist thinkers like Obama think that 'collectivism' will work this time even though it has never worked and will never work because 'collectivism' steals what rightfully belongs to a citizen and gives it to someone else - why work? why be industrious? why be creative about new products and services?

Obama will coerce the individual citizen to participate in his dream at any cost to those who do not wish to participate.

Justice
To Patty and Motley Crew:
Even though, your reasons are valid:
Yes, I beleive that a murdering rapist on an innocent child should be punished for his/her actions.
Yes, there have been convictions of innocent persons vindicated by DNA.
When the courts in their reasoning make a judgment to render invalid the verdict of a lower court, the matter doesn't end there.
I have never been in jail as a convicted felon, but I have had conversations with persons that have served time, paid their debt to society and are now working and trying to get ahead.
A recent conversation with an ex-convict turned to the subject of a child rapist in jail.
Most convicts have families (wife, daughter, sister, mother, aunt, cousin, etc.) and this person told me that if the inmates found out that a new inmate was encarcerated because he was a child rapist, his life in jail would be hell. First, he would be chain raped by everyone in the cell block, and then on a regular basis, he would be raped. He most certainly would become someones girl friend. Then he would know what it feels to get raped, and what his victim felt. These rapists get no respect in jail, so even if the lower courts decision got overturned, yes, there is justice after all.
To the liberals posting blogs:
Quit your whinining.

An innoncent child lost
I have always believed anyone who rapes a child or an old lady should be stood up against a wall and shot. The child will never get over what was done to them girls and boys both.It will guide their entire life. The one guy that was sentence to death had raped his daughter so badly that she had to have corrective surgery. He should be castrated while awake and left to bleed to death. No punishment is too great for anyone who hurts an innoncent child

Damn! Peewees still at it!
I went and did a couple hours work in the mean time!

Peewee, there is absolutely no evidence, other than your preference, for believing that a mature, or evolved or evolving society would not use, or need, The Just Execution of Criminals.

L. Neil Smith, the Libertarian SciFi writer, creates a Society that is quite Mature by the accepted Definition of Maturity or Adulthood--being able to take, and having to take, personal responsibility for one's own actions. (That last being, perhaps, a redundancy, but I feel some need, with Peewee, to stress the Personal Responsibility part.)

In Smith’s Confederation, the perps are generally arrested, charged, tried and executed ON THE SPOT by a well armed bystander or intended victim while in the process of ATTEMPTING to commit their intended crime. This generally occurs within the split seconds it takes for the bystander or intended victim to draw and get off several rounds.

Very cost effective in man hours and money.

Smith’s Confederation has a very low crime rate too.

Indeed I find it a plausible argument that God’s guidance of the Nation of Israel was an attempt to enable them to create a Perfect Society, at least in its Forms and Laws, and the Death Penalty was certainly a part of that.

Thus it is plausible that the Death Penalty WILL even MUST be a part of a Perfect Society.

But that needs to be taken a step farther. See part 2.

Mick

The Perfect Pee-wee, part 2
Here we come to a kind of Egg/Chicken point, P.

I'm going to argue that a Perfect Society is IMPOSSIBLE without Perfect People. This is because I believe (and I'd argue the Framers believed) that Rights are Divinely Endowed to the INDIVIDUAL who then CHOOSES to DELEGATE SOME clearly defined and restricted Power to the State. I argue (with C.S. Lewis if I read him right) that there can be Individuals and Individual Rights WITHOUT the Collective, but the Collective CANNOT exist without the Individual. Therefore it is the Individual who Perfects the Society, NOT the Society that perfects the Individual.

If you think about it, that makes The Death Penalty an indispensable part OF a Maturing or Evolving Society on its way to perfection. It permanently, efficiently, and cost-effectively removes from the Society those who show no interest or capability in participating in the Perfecting Process. It culls the evolving herd, Peewee.

Indeed a Perfect Society may only be possible to those Evolving and Maturing Societies who have become most successful and adept at MAKING their members take personal responsibility for their actions.

A Perfect Society might thus be the one that uses The Death Penalty the most effectively. Which COULD mean, the most often!

The Big Mick

jim
since we have no real idea what causes one person to raps and anothr not to rape how can you say that in a mature evolved society there would be no rape. perhaps there would be more rape because those conditions whach are necessary to bring about this evolved mature society would foster rape. i cerainlky dont think so, but we donrt know, perhaps never will since a mature evolve society will always be at least one footbeyond outr grasp as will a rapeless society y. you can , by comparing societies get some faint correlation between social facotrs and rape, or lack of it. you can for examople compare the number of rapes in europe as complared to the number of rapes in the us and find that something in the us is correlated with rape
nobdy knows what thought.

Berto!
When I saw the 29 I figured it was you, Rock Head, I mean Star!

So did you ever defend the Porky Rat Mooses on Coulter's Thread?

Gonna defend YOUR "Master and Commander" for valuing a Mule with antlers over American Energy Independence?

Now you're defending Child Molesters!--I thought you were an Officer and a Gentleman, Bert.

Can you Defend ANY Mac the Knife position OTHER than The WAR which is the SAME as W's cause W ADOPTED McAint's!

Are you really arguing for change by keeping the War Policy THE SAME?

Shamnesy would be the same too, wouldn't it?

On the other hand McShame IS different from W on Taxes--McAin't is FOR em.

It still seems like every place McAin't is DIFFERENT from W he's ALSO Different from what the American People WANT!?

So tell me, Bert, since you hate the Mythical "Right Winger" so much, and you LOVE McAin't, doesn't that PROVE The MacChurian Candidate is NOT a Conservative?

So why should anybody here on TH Vote for him?

Hell, I'd just LOVE to have you defend the notion that Hussein is LESS of a "Moderate"(another mythical beast) the Mac the Knife!

All you've been on any thread so far, Bert is a W-Bashing Flake. An Actual Defense of McShame vrs Hussein has been conspicuous by its absence.

the big mick

Berto!
I always figured The North's Victory in the Civil War did that, Bert. The right of a Sovereign State to opt out being foundational to reserving rights to the States and People.

Once the FED was the sole arbiter of what rights were, and who had what rights, the Constitution was a mere plaything for the SCOTUS and the Feds.

And it seems to me that what Olsen argued in BVG was that Fla should abide by its own Constitution and Laws and that JUDGES in Fla DID NOT have the right to Make it Up as they went along in Defiance of Fla's Laws and Constitution.
Reigning in a Run Away and Political Agenda Driven STATE JUDICIARY is NOT the same thing as abridging the 10th. One could argue the SCOTUS UPHELD it.

Continued and continual crying about this lynch pin of Bush Derangement Syndrome, Bert undermines your Mythology about being a "Moderate" and "taking your (GOP) party back."

Since every post event analysis indicates W did indeed have more votes cast for him in Fla, and did win the Electoral Votes, fair, square and legally, only Died in the Wool Commiequeers continue to whine about this.
Real "moderates" (that unicorn of the political spectrum) have long ago moved on.

the big mick

JUSTICE FOR ALL
i feel if a man or woman touch a child sexually they should die. when it comes to vic-schums rights when you act subhuman you will be treated sub human. i don't feel like paying for their analysis or comfort in our wonderful prison system. if someone touched one of my daughters they would die...mentally ill..emotionally disturbed...socially malijusted..criminally insane...they pass judgemant on one of my children..i will pass judgement on them. in court,on the street, or in prison they would absolutely, positively die'
no judge, liberal or conservative, black or white , male or female who would not have the
intelligence or compassion to do the right thing
would hold that position for long.
GOD HELP US ALL AHZMAN/ICU

Sad
Why should we be suprised at Kennedy's reason for his decision. I am sure he feels abortion is good also.A person who rapes a child or an old lady should be stood up against a wall and shot. One of the guys that received that sentence raped a 6 year so bad she had to have reconstructive surgery. He should be casterated awake and left to bleed to death.When Roe was passed a evanglist said we have started down the slippery road to how we look at life.

Butcher
I did not say that the court was to enforce the law. I said they were to administer it. Your comments regarding Denver and lack of oxygen are childish at the best. If you have something substantive to say, say it.

It is for the Congress to say what the law is and for our police to enforce the law. The courts are to ensure the law is properly administered. They should not be a final arbiter as to whether the law is good policy. In the child rapist case they substituted their opinion over the wishes of our elected representatives and I firmly believe this is wrong. If the Constitution is silent on the issue, which it is, then the decision as to whether the death penalty should apply should be left to Louisiana.

Yvonne says...
"Why should we be suprised at Kennedy's reason for his decision. I am sure he feels abortion is good also..."

PW: Yvonne, not everything is about abortion.

Question??
Where are the groups that opposed to these issues? Why are they not ponding their fists insisting to be heard. Right to Life,where are you? Homeschoolers? Death penalty advocates? Ambers Law? All your voices are becoming drowned out the MSM and the self-righteous BS of liberals interpreting the law in favor of their single party's agenda.

Get out,stand out,take it to the radio and billboards where real America's hear and read it every day to and from their way to work ect.

Where's OUR opposition?
Where are the groups that opposed to these issues? Why are they not ponding their fists insisting to be heard. Right to Life,where are you? Homeschoolers? Death penalty advocates? Ambers Law? All your voices are becoming drowned out the MSM and the self-righteous BS of liberals interpreting the law in favor of their single party's agenda.

Get out,stand out,take it to the radio and billboards where real America's hear and read it every day to and from their way to work ect.

Obama and how to succeed in America

Obama's Top Ten Rules to Live by

10) Comprehensive means the absence of opposition to Democrats.

9) Compassion without coercion is useless.

8) Never ask when you can use the government to take.

7) If a government program fails, repeat.

6) A liberal without guilt is no liberal at all.

5) Global Warming yields more cash than pointing a gun.

4) Moral choice is a complex personal issue that is better defined by focus groups.

3) To each according to his ability to work the system.

2) Only fools say what they really believe.

And the number One rule to success:
1) Never, ever cross Michelle Obama.

Hey Perry Winkle! Where is
your mentor Mr. Donahue? Let me guess. He's probably home sitting on a big donut ring packed with ice and muttering to himself. "I feel like Charlie Brown. Nobody likes me on Town Hall". He really got a whuppin' yesterday and you could suffer the same fate, Perry. if you are not polite to your elders. Think about it Pee Wee.

The Death Penalty
Some crimes are so heinous,they deserve the ultimate punishment. This crime is one of those. No radio,television,magazines newspapers,exercise,recreation and especially no medical and dental visits. No healthy meals to enjoy.

No,he should not LIVE any longer than is necessary for him to dwell on the terrible damage he has caused this child physically and mentally. He is the worst kind of monster and should be treated as such.

USMC Lt Not to
worry. I have the best lawyer in the history of the law profession His name is Algonquin J Calhoun and he never loses.

The Blackbird
Get PeeWee and Doofus together.PeeWee would never have to go to the movies again!!!

USMC Lt. /Rowly/The Blackbird
Oh dear should have known the
"tough guys" LMAO would be here. Kill, kill, kill but it is OK that osama and Al Q live and thrive???? Nearly 3,000 people die abd that is ok with them but one little girl doesn't die and they want to kill??? Oh wait I understand the one they want to kill is held down and can't fight back,,,,, typical

USMC Lt. /Rowly/The Blackbird
Good night "tough guys" LMAO. You can come on out now I am off. All be well

Ho Hum
Once again the evil one has visited,unwanted and unwelcome,just like Satan himself. Just like Satan,he would have no sympathy for the child whose life is ruined,body mangled by this monster.

No,his sympathy would lie with the monster. He is so full of hate for GW Bush he cannot think of anything else. Not even a little girl.

He is a paid squealer and never fails to squeal.Squealers are rats.Huffy,do you get your money's worth from the rat that squealed?

The purpose of the justice system
The traditional Big Four justifications for criminal justice, which are Restoration, Rehabilitation, Retribution, and Deterrence, are all invalid in the context of violent felonies.

There is only one rational justification for the application of criminal justice in the case of violent felons: To remove someone who is dangerous from access to others in society. There is no further consideration. A violent felon is dangerous to every individual among whom he can freely circulate.

Understand that in reason, a convicted felon does not have rights. They do not have a right to life. They forfeited the right to life when they violated wholesale the rights of another individual. It is not the responsibility of the justice system, society, or the victim to evaluate him to see if he can be salvaged, nor is it the victim's prerogative to grant him mercy or leniency. To do so would ENDANGER EVERYONE ELSE IN THAT SOCIETY. It contradicts the purpose of a justice system. It is certainly not incumbent upon the citizen to subsidize the perpetrator's existence, and it is unjust to force the citizen to do so.

Our criminal code has fallen victim to the notion that criminals are individuals with rights entitled to consideration, but law-abiding citizens are an identity-less, rights-less collective due no consideration whatsoever.

Neurotic liberals
Only a liberal would try to promulgate the notion that having an emotional response to an issue disqualifies him/her as rational to judge. They believe, on the surface, that only one who is dispassionate, with no apparent interest in the issue, is qualified to judge.

That is the paradox of liberal emotionalism. Extreme distrust and compartmentalization of emotions, while enslaved to them in every area of their lives.

When some idea is put forth, such as that the death penalty should not be given for child molesters, you in fact should consider what exactly that idea will mean for you. That is the only rational way to consider it. You cannot grasp the meaning and implications of an idea unless you think about what it will mean for the individual - and that means thinking about what it will mean for the most important individual in your life. This is not unobjective thinking - it is the epitome of it.

Socialists are only able to perpetrate their crimes against humanity because people think in disinterested terms, such as, "It's good in theory, but it doesn't work in practice." If people had thought about what it would be like to pay $4/gallon for gas, constantly face layoffs and economic hardship, lose their property rights, and watch medical science go down the toilet as their body got older and unhealthy, socialism would not have near the influence it has today.

Jack
This forum is getting old now and I am not sure anyone is looking at it anymore but do want to respond to your last two posts to me.

I am not sure which discussion you are referring to as adjacent to ours so I am not sure what you mean, but if you are referring to our having introduced some level of civility into our discussion then I am with you.

I take your point regarding general statements such as ‘Liberals/Conservatives are/think/believe,…, but I had hoped with my previous explanation that we could get beyond that and into the substance of what I contend’ many/most Liberals/Conservatives seem to me to ,…,” i.e. their view of the Constitution. You said you did not view it the way I portrayed but did not elaborate beyond that.

I don’t agree that ‘judicial activism’ is just a term used when someone does not agree with the outcome of a SCOTUS ruling but perhaps you meant ‘most’ people and not me in particular. It seems to me that with that and your previous point on generalities that you are obfuscating the real issues and hiding behind semantical arguments to avoid addressing them.

Since you reject the term itself let me rephrase my question. Do you believe that the Supreme Court should adjudicate the cases that come before it solely according to its understanding of what is constitutional and what is unconstitutional or do you think it should do so first on the basis of what it believes is right and wrong and then address the question of constitutionality in order to arrive at a decision consistent with the former?
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.