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Wednesday, February 20, 2008
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Conservatives and First Principles
by David Limbaugh
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Something is missing in all the intramural debates among different stripes of Republicans this primary season. Bigger-government Republicans don't seem fully to appreciate the extent to which the differences between conservative Republicans and liberals are about more than policy.

Conservatives and liberals differ not merely over the level of taxation, protection of the unborn, immigration, the war and other issues -- though the importance of these disputes cannot easily be overstated.

Admittedly, conservatives view these policy differences as matters of great urgency. The power to tax is the power to destroy. Abortion kills human beings. Illegal, unregulated immigration jeopardizes our national security, undermines the rule of law, could bankrupt our government and, because of the negligence concerning proper assimilation, would likely radically change the culture. Successful prosecution of the war on terror, in Iraq and elsewhere, is essential to our national security.

But at an even more fundamental level, conservatives, being sentimental saps, believe -- apparently unlike Michelle Obama -- that the United States is not only the greatest nation in the world but also that it owes its greatness largely to its Constitution.

Even if liberals were to concede this point, they would probably have different reasons for believing it is so. They tout their fondness for the Bill of Rights and little else in the document, but even here, close inspection reveals their affinity is selective.

They're definitely all about the Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable searches and seizures -- to such an extreme that they would extend it to non-citizen enemy combatants. They also surely fashion themselves as Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth Amendment enthusiasts, with their due process, witness confrontation, jury trial, double jeopardy, self-incrimination and cruel-and-unusual punishment provisions.

But their support gets murkier when it comes to the First, Second, Ninth and 10th Amendments. They revere the Establishment Clause but are less enamored of the Free Exercise Clause. They consider themselves free-speech watchdogs but love campus speech codes, the Fairness Doctrine, campaign-finance reform laws and classroom indoctrination. And I've never heard a liberal wax proudly about federalism or the erosion of states' rights that has accompanied its dilution.

Conservatives, by contrast, not only champion the Bill of Rights -- the complete package -- but also believe Americans owe our unique liberties to the scheme of governmental power established in the body of the Constitution.

We believe, as did the framers, that the structural limitations on government, like the separation of powers and federalism, are what make possible individual liberties. The pitting against each other of competing levels and branches of government run by imperfect men was designed to deter government from its natural tendency toward absolutism.

That's why conservatives get so exercised about appellate judges who refuse to honor the Constitution as written and insist on rewriting its provisions from the bench. When they do so, "legislating" certain abhorrent policies from the bench isn't their only sin. They are also tampering with the delicate balance of governmental power that guarantees our freedom.

For example, conservatives couldn't be more passionate about the appointment of judges who would reverse Roe vs. Wade because that would hopefully reduce abortions. But they are also passionate about judges honoring the Constitution's original intent -- not because they are mired-in-the-mud fuddy-duddies but because only by honoring that intent will we be able to restrain the government and maximize our liberties.

Conservatives also see quite clearly the interrelationship between economic and political liberty. Whether or not they've studied Friedrich Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom," they understand that expansive government and socialism -- no matter how well meaning, in some cases -- are ultimately incompatible with individual liberties.

Big government Republicans, however, evidently don't have the same distrust of governmental power, believing it is an unstoppable force that can't be beaten and so must be joined and harnessed to "conservative" ends.

No matter how smart these intellectuals are, they just don't get it. If they did, they wouldn't be happily surrendering to anti-constitutionalist liberals and willingly playing the game on their turf.

Conservatives realize that politics (and the preservation of our liberties) ain't beanbag. They don't invest their future in the platitudes of "hope," "bipartisanship," or "kumbaya." In the end, these are just recklessly naive expressions of confidence in the power of government to deliver us from all hardship.

Instead, conservatives believe that government is a necessary evil to establish order and promote the common defense and the like but otherwise must be restrained in order to unleash the power and freedom of the individual.

Conservatives should not be underestimated as mere players in a cynical chessboard game of party politics. They believe in the power of ideas and will continue to promote their ideas irrespective of the eventual identity of the respective presidential nominees and regardless of how much they are pressured to be silent about first principles.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Well, I was half right
In my post to Wobbie in the Michelle Malkin thread:

Marines' Dad writes: Wednesday, February, 20, 2008 12:44 AM

I can see
"Without even looking I can positively state that he's also already been to the David Limbaugh columnm by now and made his weekly highly intelligent comment about Rush "popping his pills" and then signed out of that column with his very dignified "Ditto ditto ditto ottid" line."


Wobbie came to this thread BEFORE going to Michelles' thread and he made his usual crack about Rush and "his pills."

But he broke his custom of making the "ditto" crack this time.

Still, as I said in Michelles thread, Wobbie is once again setting a fine example of the dignified manner in which a "Captain" in the United States Navy conducts himself.

At least it's a fine example for any MORON like himself who might be thinking of going into the Navy.

Why Lib McCain won't win
Would you follow McCain into battle? Not me. I don't know what Johnny Mac is fighting for. What is his political vision? He uses conservatives as political cannon fodder. And is willing to shoot his "good friend" (as long as it has an R by the name) in the back. He and the old GOP guard expect us to drink the koolaid this time because of one issue - the war in Iraq. (It is starting to sound pretty shrill that only McCain can lead us - he is un inspiring and the wrong leader at the wrong time.) All the rest of Johnny's plan is a long-term plan that hands the country over to "his friends," the Libs, anyway.

Big Government Johnny has to be stopped and conservatives must work for a more conservative congress in 2010 and a conservative POTUS in 2012.

Yeah....the author is twisting
the meaning of conservatism to suit his own definition.

yeah, all that matters to the author and the gang is big or small government. And at the same time, these gangs perhaps will point out Jesus'
dictum "give to the emperor, what is in his right, and give to God what is due to His".

It is not that McCain is pro big government like Obama or Hillary. But for David Limbaugh and the gangs are trying to remake McCain as if he is just one of them is disgusting and they lose all credibility they previously have among conservative like me who assess and apply principles in more pragmatic ways.

Robert, here is a little
ditty for you...using the fond nickname you have been given by other TH posters.

Wobbie, Wobbie the Townhall troll,
Wobbie, Wobbie really quite a droll*
Insults and names are his game
As he proves he is nothing but lame,
Wobbie, please go back to your hole.

*droll as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary...a buffoon (n.)

Not Ashamed
Must you be so unbelieveably cruel to Buffoons by putting Wobbie into the same category as them??

I mean really, that's low. Buffoons have MUCH MORE CLASS than Wobbie.

I agree with Mr Limbaugh...
...about the Democrats lack of respect for certain parts of the Constitution. On the other hand, he makes a very good argument that the Republicans have a similiar disrespect for the opposite portions of the Constitution. I, as a conservative, constitutionlist and federalist, respect the entire Constitution. Maybe if the Republican party had a similiar respect for the total document rather than the parts they felt were convenient, more conservatives would back the republican candidates ane the Republican party would not be sliding down the toilet.

- Robert
I love a good debate, one that is thought provcing is a thing to cherish.
The lack of effort that you put in to your comments is truly sadning, please do better.
For you sake if not ours, make a well crafted argument.

Interesting to both parties
We should all find it interesting that each party has self-anointed itself as one faction or the other and thereby hijacked certain characteristics to call their own.

How arrogant.

How pathetic.

As if either party corners the market on values which are of importance to only that party and not to ALL AMERICANS.

The reason why too many people on both sides are moving toward people like McPain and B.O. is because they speak to a more balanced viewpoint, albeit incomplete as Dems are very un-evolved, but still they speak beyond the extreme in many cases.

The far right and the far left don't want to face the fact that America is far more balanced then they think. America is far more liberal socially and conservative fiscally.

When a candidate starts playing to those values more often there won't be any stopping him/her.

These two buffoons just happen to look enough like the above described to get a pass this election.

Well put, but incomplete.
It is indeed a mark of conservative thought to revere the Constitution and its foundation for individual liberty, but even more important is a principle conservatives seldom discuss: the principle of Constitutionalism itself.

Constitutionalism, the principle that all legitimate authority and governmental power derives not from a mere majority but from an overwhelming popular consensus, and that grants of such authority must be explicit, well defined, and well delimited, is the required premise for our Constitution or any other. Without that premise, it becomes possible for an activist to say, "Well, majority sentiment has changed, and who are you to say that today's majority should be bound by the opinions of a majority long dead?"

Incidentally, whenever a liberal dismisses some Constitutional constraint on Washington, or argues for the "living document" approach, he's attacking the principle of Constitutionalism, by disdaining to comply with the established rules and procedures for amending the charter by which we grant and delimit the power of the government. That's the proper basis for opposing his claim; nothing else will serve.

Food for thought.

''God knows, the Constitution isn't...''
--
"...perfect, but it beats the hell out of what we've got now."


In point of fact, most of the things that "Big government Republicans" and "Liberals" want to get out of the federal government are either usurpations or outright violations of the explicit restrictive provisions of the Constitution.

(Savvy "usurpation"? It's in the Declaration of Independence, and is defined as "[a] wrongful seizure or exercise of authority or privilege belonging to another; an encroachment.")

Strict adherence to the Constitution - Hell, just plain enforcement of the Bill of Rights, nothing more - would gut "big government" like a brook trout, destroy the "income tax" (along with all other direct unapportioned taxes unlawfully imposed by the Congress), wipe the USA PATRIOT act off the books, and pretty much fulfill...

...the campaign platform of Dr. Ron Paul.

Oops.

You RINOs out there don't like that fact one teensy little bit, do ya?



--
"The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable."

-- H.L. Mencken

Liberal Limbaugh
It's been my observation that a major principled difference between liberals and conservatives is this: Liberals believe government is created to liberate us while conservatives believe it is because we have natural rights we create government to protect them.

This conservative principle comes to us from Locke and is enshrined in the Declaration: "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men".

As Frédéric Bastiat, _The Law_, puts it: "Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place."

Limbaugh, it seems, takes the liberal view: "Conservatives ... believe Americans owe our unique liberties to the scheme of governmental power established in the body of the Constitution."

And again, "Instead, conservatives believe that government is a necessary evil to establish order and promote the common defense and the like but otherwise must be restrained in order to unleash the power and freedom of the individual."

Why, because it seems Limbaugh doesn't consider consequences. He seems to see the purpose of government as promoting certain virtues and values. Fine if those in power favor yours, not so fine if they favor virtues and values you disagree with.

The only just purpose of government is protection of liberty. Anything else is unjust.

David - you fraud
"We believe, as did the framers, that the structural limitations on government, like the separation of powers and federalism, are what make possible individual liberties. The pitting against each other of competing levels and branches of government run by imperfect men was designed to deter government from its natural tendency toward absolutism. "

All you fundamentalist conservatives have done is tear down constitutional safeguards. Your blind support, until recently, for the Bush Regime smacks of blind obedience and dictator worship. Look, you and your brother having been sucking at the teat of government favor for far too long thank goodness that appears over.

Hal Donohue
If you want to see a sad case of dictator worship - check out the videos of the Dem congresscritters surrounding Bill Clinton moments after he was brought up on articles of impeachment.

Now THAT display of "party over country" was a truly sad day in our nation's history.

You probably thought it was appropriate.

To Hal Donahue
Since I know you'll eventually show up in this thread to take YOUR weekly cheap shot at Mr. Limbaugh, I just want to ask you one thing.

Do you know that your "Honorable Naval Captain" buddy Wobbie LIES TO YOU JUST THE SAME WAY THAT HE LIES TO EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD?

HE DOES YOU KNOW, HE LIES JUST LIKE A CLINTON TO EVERYONE, INCLUDING YOU, THAT HE EVER TALKS TO AND/OR AT IN HIS POSTS ON TH.

PROVE IT YOU SAY?

That's easy, I had a talk with Tina Benkiser, the Chair of the Texas Republican Party yesterday.
She told me flat out that NO ONE CAN BE A DELEGATE TO ANY of the Texas GOP election functions, e.g. caucuses, primaries, or the National GOP convention, IF THEY'RE NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT TO CARRY OUT SUCH DUTIES.

Since Wobbie claims to be from the Houston/Galveston area, Harris County, I also talked to Jared Woodfill, the head of the Harris County GOP, and he stated the same thing that Mrs. Benkiser did.

Wobbie, being "out of the state" CAN NOT even be placed into nomination to be a delegate, so there is ZERO CHANCE that ANY person who's really in the Texas Republican Party can/or would nominate him to be a delegate.

OH, and one more thing. When he denies living in Thornton, Colorado, he's also lying there.
THE FACT that he lives there has been WELL ESTABLISHED, BY MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE IN POSITIONS TO KNOW, AND PROVE, BEYOND ANY DOUBT THAT HE DOES.

I'LL LEAVE IT TO YOUR IMAGINATION to determine how a prosecuting attorny for the State of Utah, WITH FRIENDS IN THE OFFICES OF THE U.S. ATTORNEY IN BOTH HOUSTON, TEXAS, and DENVER, COLORADO, would be able to get such information.

Have a good day chewing on that information.

Hal Donahue
If you had anything to wager that I want - I'd bet all you have that your fantasy of GWB and the Hague never happens.

BTW - Marines' Dad left you a message on Limbaugh's thread. Seems even you aren't immune from Robert's prevarications.

"LMAO"

Marines' Dad
Look I don't question you are a marine's dad so I don't question what Robert is plain and simple. I do know that Robert makes very good points and usually comes across authentically. Why not just attack his arguments instead of him?

Mis-wrote
... meant "Malkin's thread", but I see Marines' Dad was nice enough to post it here while I was typing.

Marines' Dad: Wait... isn't wobbie still

"claiming" to be in Iraq doing "night duty?"

(Although, I'm still trying to figure out just what a Navy Cpt. "pilot" is doing in Iraq with "night duty.")

But how can weenie wobbie be a delegate if he's in Iraq???

I'm just saying............







Primus54
"If you had anything to wager that I want - I'd bet all you have that your fantasy of GWB and the Hague never happens."

It may take 20 years but it will. We admitted that over 30 people died undergoing "stressed interrogations" and now the White House confirms we did waterboarding. Those situations alone are enough to charge crimes against humanity. But with your moral relativism (torture is ok) you may not notice the crimes

David - another excellent article
...thanks for your articles, keep 'em coming.


Hal Donahue
So why won't your Dem-lead Congress legislate waterboarding as "torture"???

And why are you more concerned with the rights of illegal non-combatants than the rights of your fellow citizens?

The trouble with your argument about GWB's alleged crimes is that - were he Bill Clinton - you'd defend him - and you know it.

You said it eloquently, David
Two things happened to me years ago that helped to form what I believe about government.

When I was a young idealist, about 23, and knew little about human nature, I got into a debate with my dad about gun control. I thought it was a good idea. My dad looked me square in the eye and said, "You better defend the Constitution of the United States above all else because that piece of paper is the only thing that stands between you and some dictator running every aspect of your life." My father was a wise man.

I had a friend whose husband dumped her after they had two children. Being a stay-at-home mom with only a highschool education, she started receiving welfare, known at that time as Aid to Families with Dependent Children. This friend was poor, lived in a trailer, never went out, never had much of anything. She saved a little money from Christmas and birthday gifts given to her and managed to persuade a local merchant to sell her a television set on credit. She did a little baby sitting, so she thought she could make small payments. One day her case worker came by, saw the t.v. and hit the ceiling. She raked my friend over the coals for her purchase telling her it was foolish and unnecessary. I saw then what happens when government "compassion" lends you a hand. They take control of every detail of your life. When you give up responsibility for your life you also surrender control. Whatever you gain, it's just not worth the price you pay.

So David L....
...like Reagan said - He didn't leave the Democrat party , it left him. Now the same is happening with conservatives and the GOP. The GOP is leaving us. They had their chance to conform but they opted to oppose the base and gravitate towards the WSJ/U.S. Chamber crowd. Where all the big $$ is. Casting some hypnotic spell over themselves that actual votes are secondary.
So its time, Mr. Limbaugh, for us conservatives to consider the New Republican Party (NRP) or the Republican National Party (RNP). Or whatever this new party for folks like us will be named. Its time to begin work on its formation NOW. And I'm talking in preparation for 2012, here. Darvin Dowdy

Mr. Limbaugh's central contradiction
A common one, to be sure. First, he argues by assertion that:

"Successful prosecution of the war on terror, in Iraq and elsewhere, is essential to our national security."

and second, explaining the conservative view, the U.S. "owes its greatness largely to its Constitution."

But Mr. Limbaugh, the Iraq war is **unconstitutional.** The President intentionally bypassed the Declaration of War. Instead, he relied on UN resolutions!!! Are you telling me THAT is conservative?

No, it is Neocon dialectic. And that's why traditional conservatives, true to their principles, object - profoundly. This guy is a loser -- and, as the "decider", he has been the Destroyer.

Conservatives have already lost
The obession by liberals from both parties to continue our insane foreign and domestic policies of waste, will cause Republicans to accrue even more losses in 2008.

The Repub Party has all but pushed conservatives out of the party.
Enjoy trying to win with your liberal base.

Hal Donohue writes:
"Look I don't question you are a marine's dad so I don't question what Robert is plain and simple. I do know that Robert makes very good points and usually comes across authentically..."

You defend Robert because he's one of the few posters who tends to agree with your ideology. If he was your political opposite - you'd be just as indignant, maybe even more so, as a Vet ought to be.

Primus54
"So why won't your Dem-lead Congress legislate waterboarding as "torture"???"

US has prosecuted people for waterboarding. Waterboarding is recognised as torture worldwide. It is illegal.

And why are you more concerned with the rights of illegal non-combatants than the rights of your fellow citizens?

"The trouble with your argument about GWB's alleged crimes is that - were he Bill Clinton - you'd defend him - and you know it.
\
No, I absolutely would not and that is the difference between you and me. For me it is about the country and national security. Torture doesn't work and is illegal simple. The Bush Regime has dishonored and damaged the country causing the US to be listed with Iran, NK, Egypt, China as torture states. I do not want him impeached I want him before the Hague

Barry Goldwater
This quote holds true for conservatives.

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"

Robert
Hear, hear and thank you

McCain Better
McCain better take the "no citizenship for any illegals" pledge or I'm voting Obama.

Robert, aka "Frobusto"
Who gives a damn what a fraud sitting in his room near Denver says about the highly successful Limbaugh brothers?

That would be you, Robert.

Townhall's #1 prevaricator.

Let's talk about the rule of law.
How is it the greatest crime in American History has not been investigated and a former prosecutor was allowed to remove and destroy all the evidence? How about a president that insists on passing a Law that would immunize companies that broke the Law and spied on U.S. Citizens against the dictates of one of the most clearly written of all the first 10 amendments? How about a president that admitted to breaking the law, but said it was justified, because what he does is, by definition, legal?

Boy you repukes are really all about the constitution, aren't you?

Don't worry, we have precedents for when a good, big government Democrat gets into power.

By the way, Oink. I hope you love Fox news and all the big boys ramming their pig down your throats. We dems saw them ram wars and fear down the throats of Americans, before. Get used to it: Oink!

"Conservative" Robert opines:
"I certianly (sic) thought Gore was a better match then (sic) Bush...gee was I correct."

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

What a tool of the left you are, Frobusto...

Hal D
Hey buddy.

You gonna answer my question that I've been asking for several months now?

Did your KKK business cards have a picture of Robert "Sheets" Byrd on them as your mascot/logo?



And did wobbie answer woody's questions from yesterday?

Delegate Robert
All of the delegates I know can spell. And, they all know how to use the "SpellCheck" tab when in doubt.

Seems you have a few hurdles to overcome, including that pesky one about residing in Texas....

Primus54
Do navy Captains usually make so many grammar mistakes?

Just wondering.

Primus54 writes:
"Conservative" Robert opines:
"I certianly (sic) thought Gore was a better match then (sic) Bush...gee was I correct."

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

What a tool of the left you are, Frobusto...

I would call Hal Doofus, Rockhead J. Squirrel, and truly repulsive TH's very own Three Stooges, but that would be a massive insult to Larry, Curly, and Moe.

Conservative Principles
A minor correction to an otherwise excellent article:

In the penultimate paragraph of your article, you should have adhered to the actual language in the Constitution in that the federal government is entrusted with the power to establish order and "provide for," not just "promote" the common defense. (Further, it's only supposed to "promote" not provide for, the general welfare.)

Bob Green
Austin, TX

BmanIII writes:
Primus54
Do navy Captains usually make so many grammar mistakes?

Just wondering.

And so many spelling errors?

Primus54
"Who gives a damn what a fraud sitting in his room near Denver says about the highly successful Limbaugh brothers?"

Thanks ffor proving my point

Robert, aka "Frobusto"
The closest you and your "late wife" ever got to a "meet & greet" with GWB was in the comments you just posted.

You have a truly "genius" imagination though. Some would say "pathologically" genius.

How's the weather near Denver where you are?

Cold & snowy here...

Hal "Phil" Donohue writes:
"Thanks ffor (sic) proving my point" (sic)


And thanks for proving mine, Hal.

"LMAO"

BmanIII & Lumberjack
The answer to both your questions is "No".

I think I have a new name for Frobusto:

"Not-A-Cap'n"

Like it?

Robert
Yep, Al Gore was terrific. This is the man who:

- inspired the book and movie "Love Story" (much to the surprise of everyone, including the author of "Love Story").

- sponsored the Earned Income Tax Credit (which was passed in 1974, two years before Gore was elected to Congress).

- claimed his father was voted out of the Senate for his "support" of civil rights (his father demonstrated his support for civil rights by voting against the 1964 Civil Rights Act).

- pledged to fight tobacco after his sister's death from cancer (then four years later, he openly bragged about his own experience as a tobacco farmer).

Of course, Gore also invented the Internet.

Personally, I'm not surprised you love Gore. The two of you seem to live in the same fantasy world

Primus54 writes:
BmanIII & Lumberjack
The answer to both your questions is "No".

I think I have a new name for Frobusto:

"Not-A-Cap'n"

Like it?

Either or "Not-Worth-A-Damn-Cap'n"

Ken
Hahahaha!

Outstanding post!

I'm sure "Not-A-Cap'n" will have to go get some chow and go "on duty" soon - especially with posts such as your's to try to battle.

Robert
Abortion is a sin. To many Americans it isn't a sin. The government protects a woman's right to have an abortion. Should the government pay for it? If yes, why?

R's and D's have forgotten
Good article Mr. Limbaugh.
Republican leadership and Democrats have forgotten, or have chosen to ignore what the Constitution is at it's core.
The founders understood that government was a beast of epic proportions. They crafted the Constituion to cage the beast, and therefore allow people freedom from its horrible grasp. (I believe to be the best built cage in human history.)
They crafted the bars of its cage well--and over the past century leaders of both parties have taken a file to the once sturdy bars. All the while politicians convinced the public that the beast in the cage was well trained, and ready and able to have more freedom. If Fact they have convinced most people it is not a beast at all--but merely a misunderstood entity that really just wants to help all mankind.
The founders, in their wisdom, also kept the beast on a short ration of its favorite food--taxes. But we have fed it, loosened its bars so it can grow stronger and larger, and convinced the populace they have nothing to fear--and with this election we will hand the keys to the cage to either McCain, Obama, or Hillary.

This my friends is the stuff of nightmares.

Rockhead J. Squirrel writes:
3. Gore believes that he has to convince the American people of what he wants to do and is engaged in that. That is what leaders do. You are free to oppose him, but he is working on selling "what he believes".

When Gore begins to practice what he preaches, maybe I'll listen to him. Like you, he is full of himself, and even more full of sh!t.

C.H.
"Abortion is a sin. To many Americans it isn't a sin. "

Sin is a religious concept and irrelevant in political discussions. Your god should tell my god what to believe?

Gore's "Good" Points
Every human being has some "good" in them.

But when they want to be heard and try to influence millions of people with their ideas - especially on such contentious issues as "AGW", they (or their supporters)should not be surprised to be dismissed when they demonstrate such a tendency to exaggerate and prevaricate. It is a clue as to their mental health.

Something you, Robert, are all too familiar with.

Robert
If you're truly a Navy man (which I doubt), then you should be familiar with this saying:

TELL IT TO THE MARINES!

Hal
"Sin is a religious concept and irrelevant in political discussions."

Yet when preachers talk about abortion from their pulpits, they're told they should stay out of politics. Am I the only one who sees an inconsistency here?

What a bunch of crap
All of this diatribe from the clueless brother of the hypocrite of the airwaves who has supported undoubtedly the worst president in our history and called his vice-president "my hero."
Neither one is as much a conservative as he is an opportunist.

Rockhead J. Squirrel writes:
if you want to have a discussion on when I think Abortion is a sin...I guess I am happy to oblige (my foot is more or less keeping me in one place for a bit...)
Robert

Yes, but only because your foot constantly stays in your mouth.

Misunderstanding Principles
Jefferson understood what principles are, but Limbaugh does not. Principles are self evident, universal, and demonstrably true. They are not pet beliefs. In fact, it is the effort of some to establish a dogmatic canon of beliefs turning conservative into an -ism that is causing so much problem.
Believing is antithetical to the rationalism of the Enlightment with rigorous tests for proving the truth. In particular, the idea of personal principle is wrong. Limiting government relies mainly on limiting its sphere to proven principle. Jefferson claimed three, but Limbaugh goes on and on. Every word and line he writes expands the intrusion on our liberty into the government sphere based on the creed he proposes.
There are many who need to look up the term principle and understand what it means. You don't get your own principles. Neither is someone else entitled to call his preferances principles. Limit the concept as the founders did, and you limit the sphere of government by jealously guarding the personal and private, the realm of belief and preferance is none of the government's business.

Robert
"I really didnt expect you to be able to do much past the talking points."

Perhaps some people just aren't worth the time of day (that means you).

Robert writes:
"Gore never claimed to be an enlisted member of the armed forces who got a direct commission without a four year degree and yet cannot point to a single source other then "other" people here...who can verify that...and there are lots of sources that say it is bogus..."

I assume you are referring to "USMC Lt" with this rant?

One thing I CAN say about him is that he's had no problem validating his bonafides to several of the posters here at Townhall - which you have consistently avoided doing yourself.

You suffer from the same problem as Gore - you just MIGHT have some interesting viewpoints, but your relentless lies about who and what you are get in the way of being considered by all but the crazy leftists that visit this site.

I KNOW USMC Lt is who he claims to be - just as I KNOW you are NOT who you claim to be.

Robert
"abortion is a sin lets change The Constitution or overturn Roe or elect so and so who thinks the same way". Thats politics.

No, that's free speech. Get over it.

Robert
When the government starts recognizing the beliefs of people as 'rights', and then subsidizing it, we will have problems.

I think 'framers' is a good image for our founding fathers. They built a framework. If the frame is too heavy with rights of special interest groups then it impedes individual rights.

When government pays for solutions to bad choices we encourage more of the same behavior. Government's job, in my mind, should not be in the business of baby sitting everyone's emotions, but to offer a framework for people to find their own solutions.

America is the most innovative country ever, it's because freedom allows people to be creative. When we're allowed to be creative, because of the framework of the constitution, we prosper and the country prospers, and the world is better.

ps...thanks for answering.

Robert
Wow... you sure can go on with your deflections.

Thou does protest too much!

This is real simple, Robert.

I know USMC Lt is an officer in the U.S. Marines because he has provided bonafide email addresses and personal information sufficient to the task. (off these threads)

You have been offered numerous opportunities to provide similar evidence and have declined - and always having some phony reason why.

As much as it may be hard for your ego to deal with, I don't bother reading all your thousands of posts, so if you've left clues as to your last name - I haven't seen them.

Your last name means nothing without other evidence of official military connections.

So...

In front of all who have or will post here today, I will ask you once again:

Are you currently an active duty Captain in the United States Navy?

Primus54
He is a Captain. Captain of Quaker Oats.

aka Captain Crunch.

Conservative v Moderate v Socialist
Every person in America who wears a military uniform takes and OATH swears or (affirms)allegiance...Every professional, political parasite in our country takes the same OATH...

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose or evasion; that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God".

These spinless, whining mugwumps do not have the gonads to vote FOR the Semper Fi Act, the Patriot Act and the Protect America Act. Why? Because the Socialist pinkos will not vote for them and the lobbyists will not send them money.

Our country has enemies within our gates and outside our borders and round the world and those scumbags in Washington, D.C. do nothing but subpoena and investigate.

It is as plain as Global Warming is a Democrat leftist HOAX that POWER is the ONLY thing they are concerned about.

They do not give a rat's @$$ about me, you, our military, our safety, their family or our country. Our U.S. Constitution means nothing to them. Their best lie is:"We support the troops".

"A nation can survive its fools and even the ambitious, but it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is formidable, for he is known and carries his banners openly against the city, but the traitor moves among those within the gates freely, his sly whispers rustling through the alley and heard in the very halls of government itself. He rots the soul of a nation; he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city; he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist."
Cicero

Primus54
If Robert is who he claims to be, the next grade would be (perish the thought) ADMIRAL. Of course he would have to be picked by the President and approved by the Senate. But it's highly doubtful that it will happen. Can you imagine Robert being an Admiral. I would cringe at the very thought of that. I would feel sorry for anyone under his command.

BmanIII
He'll deflect again - just watch!

He's too afraid of the black helicopters to totally incriminate himself.

Probably about time for physical therapy on his foot.

Ken
"No, that's free speech. Get over it."

No that is bringing religion directly into the political arena.

sheepdog
Have no fear - there is zero chance he is what he claims to be.

Boring boring boring
There wasn't enough "No-Doz" in the world to prevent the onset of sleep during The McCharade's so-called "victory speech" last night.

JM hasn't exactly made a living of speaking about the U.S. Constitution or the Founding Fathers.

FromTheTop1
I read your biography. Thank you for your service. My dad and I are both retired AF. We both did 26 years although my dad was all AD and he retired as an E-9 with two tours of duty in RVN. I retired at 26 but with 6 years AD and 20 in the AF reserves. Your post at 11:58 was spot on. Thanks again from a fellow vet!! Semper Fi

Hal Donahue
"No that is bringing religion directly into the political arena."

As Abraham Lincoln said of slavery, we can't talk about it in the political arena because that's bringing religion into politics, but we can't talk about it in the pulpit because that's bringing politics into religion.


sheepdog
Does McHales's Navy ring a bell.

Robert
"I have dropped enough hints so that folks here could figure out my last name."

If your posts are any indication, I would guess that your last name is Bodine.

What constitution
Article one section eight ring a bell?

Neo Cons do not respect the constitution any more than Liberals.

My evidennce is GWB, and the war, and the patriot act.

BmanIII
"Does McHales's Navy ring a bell."

That's doing a disservice to HcHale's Navy. He could tell his port from his starboard.


BmanIII writes:
sheepdog
Does McHales's Navy ring a bell.

There is one big difference between Quentin McHale and Rockhead J. Squirrel. Say what you want McHale was an effective, combatant Naval Officer, and RJS is not not.

BmanII
Little mispost.
Should read
He Couldn't tell his port from his starboard. Don't even think he could qualify as a cook.

Primus54
You asked Robert, "Are you currently an active duty Captain in the United States Navy?"

Of course he is! He was also a Hollywood producer and a double-naught spy.

Ken writes:
Robert
"I have dropped enough hints so that folks here could figure out my last name."

If your posts are any indication, I would guess that your last name is Bodine.

Would the first name be Jethro?

Trans. moral order is 1st principle
If you didn't know what the first principles of conservativism really are you'd be terribly misinformed by Limbaugh's article. Here they are.

1. Belief in a Transcendental Moral Order at the Heart of Reality.

2. Belief that Man's nature is Flawed by Evil and Ignorance.

3. Belief in Simple, Supernatural Causes.

Al other beliefs, such as small government and strong defense are derived from these first principles.

Sad to say, conservatism is deeply contradictory.

Seeker of truth
My evidennce is GWB, and the war, and the patriot act.

Your evidence is only an opinion. If you do have evidence then what is your source? Please enlighten us.

Great article David.
I've heard and seen more references to Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" in the past week than I've seen in the last twenty years.

Though Hayek dedicated his book to "The Socialists of ALL Parties", and appropriately so, every conservative/libertarian ought to read it as frequently as once a year. It is the bullet in the constitutionalist's sniper rifle.

Five stars.

Lumberjack7392
"Would the first name be Jethro?"

That's the one!

BMan-LJ7392-Nee-Marines' Dad-Ken-SDog
Which Wobbie is here today? The Wal-Mart Pilot, The Wikipedia Wu$$, The Imbecile in Iraq, The DumbA$$ Delegate or The McAmnesty McMidget Moron?

Sheep & Lumber
Sorry to insult McHale.


Chief Potato Peeler maybe?

Nope, too dangerous.

Captain of the Latrine. YES!!! YES!!!

Rockhead J. Squirrel writes:
So believe what you want to, and I know you want to believe.

a military email address does not a commission make. sorry

Robert

Then I choose not to believe any of your sea stories. Wildly fantastic assertions on a blog do not the truth make.

Georgetwin....
Answer:

All of them, he/she/it is Bi-Polar

OMG, Robert
I couldn't have scripted your last two posts to me any better!

Another deflection about USMC Lt and then, "exit - stage left" as Snagglepuss would say.

Sorry, Robert. Hiding behind the UCMJ TODAY doesn't work if it didn't matter to you in the past when you made such claims.

There you have it, Folks! Another non-deny denial.

That's okay Robert. You didn't really need to answer. Anybody here with an IQ above room temperature knows that an active duty Naval officer does not have the free time you devote to these threads.


Townhall's #1 fraud has "left the building"!


Primus54
He will turn up on another thread....just watch.

Absolutly a Great Article !
Restart this topic every week David.

How to force the government to enforce the law is the question. They won't do it on their own,... not likely anyway.

We stopped illegal amnesty by a show of force from the public. Albeit temporarily.

It must be illegal to "grant amnesty" by statute of the Constitution or some other measure. A lawsuit may be in order to stop the government from illegal activity. Ignoring the law is illegal. As we have heard for years- ignorance of the law is no excuse.

It needs to be shown(to Congress) that it is illegal, ipso facto, for the U.S. government to ignore law wether it's the illegal immigrant issue or courts/judges ignoring the laws on the books, most importantly the Constitution.

Why isn't english as the default language of America being enforced? Isn't it illegal in and of itself to ignore this law? To put Spanish on product boxes?

The question is how to "show" the government it's malfeasance. Our elected "leaders" are on the inside not our side. I believe we the people have the cause of action to sue the government for lack of duty to country.

Disappointing thread on a good article
I think Limbaugh deserves better than this twaddle.

HalD
Berkeley just gave us a good example of how you Progressives support our military.

Want another?
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\\Specia lReports\\archive\\200508\\SPE20050825a.html

ModMark

This is real simple, Elvis.

The subject of my "witch hunt" is impersonating an officer of the armed forces - and denigrates other authentic members all the time.

If you don't have a problem with that - fine.

I could care less what Robert's politics are, but just because he's a liberal doesn't get him a pass on his other shenanigans.

Sorry you don't get that.

Feel free to head back to Graceland.

modmark
"This is just a pathetic attempt of censoring a person via the use of discredited the person."

Wrong dude. If the person is a liar, why would anything that person says be given any credibility.

The fact of the matter is that Robert hasn't been honest here, and now he comes on TH to post drivel that has no credibility.

Also, Robert has a very silly habit of labeling folks that don't agree with HIM. He's labeled me a "far right" many times although I've given him no reason to think that other than disagreeing with some of his rhetoric.

Does that really sound like a credible person to you? Robert can drink Natty Bo from a muddy hoof print for all I care what he thinks of me.

ModMark
If you have been on TH for very long you would know that Primus is not on a witch hunt.

For what Robert post on here has been proven time and time again to be a complete fabrication of his little mind.

I see your grammar and sentence structuring aren't up to par either.

Back to the Daily Kooks for you.


ModerateMark
Why do you always jump to the defense of the most extreme NUT CASE Leftists at TH?
That is hardly the conduct of a "Moderate".

Wobbie is not a Capt. in any Navy I know of.
I seriously doubt he has ever been to sea.
Other TH members have proven he does not know how to fly.

The only thing he knows how to do is tell preposterous lies and make a fool of himself.

Conservatism &the Republican Party
Mr. Limbaugh, This is a good article except for your premise that the Republican Party is a Bastion of conservatism. This party is barley moderate if that in today's terms. I agree we need to become more conservative as a Nation; won't happen though, we are a Nation that expects the Government to do it for us. Sad Time in America!!

Plumber
If you will remember, Plumber, Hayek also said that there is no differences between Socialists and Conservatives, since they both want to use the police power of the State to enforce and compell their own moral values.

BMan-LJ7392-Nee-Marines' Dad-Ken-SDog
Robert=PLO=Permanent Latrine Orderly

The Republican Party is not conservative
Mr. Limbaugh a good article except for your premise that the Republican Party is Conservative. This party is moderate at best in today's terms. What a shame!!!

sorry for the double post
the system is very slow today

Georgetwin writes:
BMan-LJ7392-Nee-Marines' Dad-Ken-SDog
Robert=PLO=Permanent Latrine Orderly

Don't insult Private Will Stockdale. He was very efficient in that position. RJS could not meet Stocdale's standards.

modmark
Only those seeking credibility by telling everyone something they are not get hammered like that MM.

Robert's "message" is linked with his character. His character has come into question because some evidence has come to light that says he's not telling the truth.

The thing is, if someone lied to me about something, then everything else that person says to me must be considered false until proven otherwise.

Robert chooses to be acidic, to inflame, to be quite frank, a jerkweed. He sprinkles every post with arrogance and condescention. So much so that whatever he's trying to get across gets lost.

Smug doesn't work.

Bullet Bob
and the pall bearers are:

Lilly
Sophie
TR
Hal D


They needed two more but there was a Saturday matinee playing at the theater so....

Disney released a new cartoon.

Georgetwin
"Which Wobbie is here today? The Wal-Mart Pilot, The Wikipedia Wu$$, The Imbecile in Iraq, The DumbA$$ Delegate or The McAmnesty McMidget Moron?"

You forgot "brain surgeon", "street car conductor", and "fry cook."

modmark
I guess it's just a matter of what one finds to be worthwhile.

If people seek out that type of evidence, then so be it. Getting a life really has nothing to with it. But by saying that, you're doing exactly what you're railing against. Dismissing the message without listening to it. No?

I WISH there was an English or Irish or Scottish or Welsh pub near me....

myopine2
"Berkeley just gave us a good example of how you Progressives support our military."

Ahh really? Then the Phellps church is definately showing Conservative support.


ModMarc
These folks follow the fundamentalist Conservative creed of always attacking the messenger Rush calling soldiers and veterans phony soldiers is a perfect example. They know they have no substance

Hal "Phil" Donohue writes:
"Rush calling soldiers and veterans phony soldiers is a perfect example."

Another "perfect example" of how you have to take things out of context and ignore all other evidence to make your point, Hal.

Rush has done far more - verbally, physically & monetarily - to support our warriors than most of your liberal friends in Hollywierd or in the MSM combined.

ANYBODY of whatever ideology that has been a consistent listener of Limbaugh knows your argument is a total straw man.

Hal Doofus writes:
myopine2
"Berkeley just gave us a good example of how you Progressives support our military."

Ahh really? Then the Phellps church is definately showing Conservative support.

Except that Phelps and Company are Democrats.

Hal the compulsive LIAR!
You know full well that Rush Limbaugh only called ONE FAKE a phoney soldier.
But then you worship Phoney Soldiers;
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/john-kerry-gained-fame-t hanks-to-phony-soldiers

Your sudden regard for our military is quite touching!

Your only substance is LIES!

Only one quick edit THIS week!
You wrote, "If they did, they wouldn't be happily surrendering to anti-constitutionalist liberals and willingly playing the game on their turf."

My edit would have read, "If they did, they wouldn't be surrendering happily to anti-constitutionalist liberals and willingly playing the game on their turf."

You split-the-predicate. That's all.

ModerateMark
I don't recall anyone asking Wobbie to release any military records.

I asked him to identify Navy Ordinance Codes. (Colors)

I asked him to describe trophy flags any U.S. sailor would know and recognize.

I asked him to identify a signal flag that ANY sailor of any Nation would know!

He has never been to sea!

Primus54/myopine2
"Another "perfect example" of how you have to take things out of context and ignore all other evidence to make your point, Hal."

Those pesky FACTS just keep getting taken out of context - wrong

"Rush has done far more - verbally, physically & monetarily - to support our warriors than most of your liberal friends in Hollywierd or in the MSM combined.{"

Rush ran from his war and has ignored the things that matter to support the troops to suck up to the Bush Regime. If he cared he would have demanded healthcare, VA funding, proper equipment and trying. He just uses them for advertising

"ANYBODY of whatever ideology that has been a consistent listener of Limbaugh knows your argument is a total straw man. "

Now there you do lie. I am a consistent listening

Proud Liberal
Re: Hayek

I think that is why he dedicated his book to "The Socialists of All Parties".

That is also why I was sure to specify conservative/libertarian.

Are you a liberal in the classical sense or the modern one? As you are familiar with Hayek, do you remember why socialists appropriated the word "liberal"?

Hal Doofus writes:
Now there you do lie. I am a consistent listening

Say what? Don't you mean a consistent listener?

Lumberjack7392
"Say what? Don't you mean a consistent listener? "

yes thank you

Hal the distortionist!
When you twist and distort truth there is an old word we use for that you would not consider very PC.

Your statements must not contain any fiction or misleading innuendo if you expect to have credibility.

I know that makes it hard for a Liberal to post but this is a Heritage Foundation site.
If you want to post lies, go back to Huffington where you belong!

myopine2
rant all you like the facts stand. Next you will tell me he didn't compare a wounded soldier to a suicide bomber?

Hal Doofus writes:
myopine2
rant all you like the facts stand. Next you will tell me he didn't compare a wounded soldier to a suicide bomber?

Did not your heroes, the Backstabbing Boys, Murtha and Kerry call the troops terrorists and murderers? Did not Kerry call the troops unedecated? Did not Dick head Durbin call them Nazis? I have yet to hear an apology from them?

Hank_Scorpio
"Robert chooses to be acidic, to inflame, to be quite frank, a jerkweed. He sprinkles every post with arrogance and condescention."

Amen! As I said, if Robert is in the Navy at all, he's probably an ensign.

An apology to ensigns..
I've been saying that if Robert's in the Navy, he's probably an ensign. After some thought, I realize that's not fair.

To all ensigns in the U.S. Navy: Please accept my apologies for slandering you.

The Plumber-Primus-Ken-LJ7392
NOTICE that NOWHERE in DNC ads, candidates, etc do you EVER see or hear the word 'Liberal'.

Why do you suppouse that is?

In English
That is 'suppose' :).

Hal the distortionist!
Now see, there you go AGAIN!
Limbaugh did not say the wounded troops were suicide bombers.
YOU ARE LYING!

Limbaugh said unprincipled people LIKE YOU are using them, USING THEM, like suicide bombers!

Innuendo is not the same as fact.
I do understand you Progressives have a compulsion to substitute fiction for fact.

When you quote someone it is mandatory to use their words, ALL OF THE WORDS!
Not just the ones you find convenient for your purpose.

Georgetwin writes:
The Plumber-Primus-Ken-LJ7392
NOTICE that NOWHERE in DNC ads, candidates, etc do you EVER see or hear the word 'Liberal'.

Why do you suppouse that is?

Maybe because they know that admitting they're liberals is a death knell to their candidacy. Hell, Hal Doofus had been insisting that the Wicked Witch of Chappaqua is a moderate. I have noticed that of late he had not made the claim. Maybe her being the secon most liberal in the Senate, behond Braindead Abominable has something to do with that.

Georgetwin writes:
In English
That is 'suppose' :).

Is that the translation from Wobertese?

The Plumber-Primus-Ken-LJ7392-Scorpio
Come on over to Malkin's thread. I've got a scrap going with 2 09/11 Truther Retards.

Sorry Georgetwin
I don't watch television. I quit watching over five years ago when I realized that the comedies weren't funny, movies weren't entertaining, and political commentary wasn't insightful.

But I have a feeling that it won't be long before the socialists scuttle the word "progressive" as well.

What do you think they'll call themselves next? Maybe it's time they just call themselves "socialists".

Would you call America’s founders kooks?
Ron Paul: Direct Descendant of the Founders
Would you call America’s founders “kooks”?

FROM THE INDEPENDENT INSTITUTE

By Senior Fellow Ivan Eland

As the nation’s major media outlets crown John McCain (George W. Bush on steroids) as the Republican nominee for president, their nearly criminal neglect of Ron Paul’s candidacy in the 2008 presidential campaign is nearly complete. “Big media” have never deemed Paul a “major candidate,” as their paltry coverage of him shows.

In fact, the media often brand the ardent groundswell of popular support for Ron Paul as an odd curiosity. The problem is that if Ron Paul is a kook—as they imply—then so are the nation’s founders. His policy prescriptions of more limited government at home and military restraint abroad put him far closer to the spectrum of opinion at the founding than any other candidate in the 2008 race.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/ron-paul-direct-de scendant-of-the-founders

Forget principles, shut up and vote
Isn't that what the critics want conservatives to do. Shut your mouth and support your candidate. There are even some in conservative talk radio, who are distancing themselves from other conservatives who have sounded the alarm about principles. Without principles what do you have. Just another politician like Obama with a lot of rhetoric and no experience. Or like Hillary, a lot of experience and the same old liberal rhetoric. McCain is going to get the nomination, that's a fact. Do conservatives have to dump their conservatism because of McCain. What about the next Presidential election. What are the critics expecting the conservatives to give up then. Once the party gives and gives, and the party can't even recognize itself anymore, then there will be talk about returning to principles and the grass roots voters, the conservatives. Conservatives aren't even given the credit they deserve, for keeping the balance in the party from tilting too far to the left to keep the liberals happy. This country was founded on people like the conservatives for sounding the alarm when danger is near or about to happen. Do the Minute Men ring a bell. Or Paul Revere. Sounding the alarm is part of our history, it's who we are. Not everyone who sounds the alarm are conservatives, are we to tell those who do sound the alarm to just shut up.

Lumberjack7392
In ruminating recently about conservatives' denouncing liberalism my thought traveled backwards and, surprisingly, stopped on the recollection of a book I've never read, but have heard about: "The Jungle," by a socialist Upton Sinclair.

Apparently, from what I've heard, I think both about the book and the truth in general from various sources, the Chicago slaughterhouses were daunting places to work, hard work, injuries, tough management, etc. Plus, I remember stories about pieces of rats and mice, and sawdust and dirt swept up from floors that found their way into the frankfurters of that day.

Now, perhaps, the private sector played a large part in cleaning up practices that were health hazards to the general public; I wouldn't be surprised if public spirited business men took a leading role is things like that.

But I sense, too, that government - on behalf of people, the workers - also played a role in advocating for and bringing about safer working conditions and better practices relating to public health.

To make a long story short efforts like this are liberal efforts. I hope that Obama does confront the conservative ideas about liberalism. And if I were Obama, I'd take the American public on a narrative, back through history, saying, "now, would you like to go back to a situation like this," then outline a social problem and describe the liberal conceived and led solution; then take another step back through history and say, "would you like to go back to a time like this," and describe another social problem and the liberal conceived and led solution,: back and back.

Lighten up, Robert
---------------------------------------------------
I have dropped enough hints so that folks here could figure out my last name. But you and others are so hung up on your ideology and what you "think" that either you dont see them or are to dullard to do anything with them.
---------------------------------------------------

To presume that people give a damn what your last name is--and then to accuse them of stupidity when they don't--is simply too much, even for you.

I don't give a damn what your name is, if you've ever been in the Navy, or how many misspelled, poorly punctuated ad hominem attacks you post on TH.

I read your posts, in spite of myself, because occasionally--just occasionally--you make a cogent argument, free of demagoguery or name calling. If you would drop the confrontational attitude, you could be a valuable contributor to frank intellectual discussion on these boards.

But really, I don't think that's what you're after. I think you're just in it for the attention. You post something stupid, and stupid people respond in kind, every day on every column. Your whole shtick seems to be self-aggrandizement, all the way down to your sign off, which is always completely unnecessary, since your posts are ALWAYS identified by name, right at the top.

The only real puzzle to me is that TH hasn't figured out how to IP ban yet...

Proud of no solution Liberal
To the Proud Liberal dillussion,"then outline a social problem and describe the liberal conceived and led solution; then take another step back through history and say, "would you like to go back to a time like this," and describe another social problem and the liberal conceived and led solution,: back and back."
----------------------------------------------
During the '60's this nation, the people, together, raised their voices, and directed government representation to act, resolving, conflicts of opportunity afforded various groups of Americans. And act the democrat majority did, as they continue to act today. With speculative legislation, and the inevitable need for further legislation, to prove it's worth, liberals are sucking America dry. While there may be personal cases of Americans, who have gained opportunity of its implementation, they did so of the opportunity afforded them. Liberals, the left, have made a living off from this cause, and they love those who take opportunity of it. The largest industry in this nation, employing hundreds of thousands in government bureaucracy, along with its private business counterparts. I do not need to go back in time to see liberals are not of, nor have ever been, a part of the solution. THEY ARE THE PROBLEM!

Proud Liberal
The Jungle is a great book, even though Sinclair embellished a bit for dramatic purposes. If my history serves me correctly, it was Teddy Roosevelt who demanded investigations into the food processing industry.

Nowadays, modern liberals (remember, liberalism in the first part of the 20th century meant: freedom from government) use The Jungle to justify all sorts of government intrusion. But if the primary function of government is to keep its citizens from dying violently, then the prevention of being poisoned by contaminated food is something that govt. can arguably be concerned.

One cannot go from there however (protection from violent death), to providing retirement, healthcare, education, television stations, radio stations, welfare....etc, especially considering the severe restrictions placed on govt by enumerated powers, checks and balances, and the Bill of Rights. Just because the SCOTUS has put their finger into the wind and ignored their function as a "check" for the last 70+ years, and voted with the mob instead of accurately interpreting the Constitution, it is still no rational for the taking of liberty guaranteed by said document.


Expound Truth
" I do not need to go back in time to see liberals are not of, nor have ever been, a part of the solution. THEY ARE THE PROBLEM! "

I can see why you do not want to go back in time LMAO. "Liberals" i.e. FDR administration won WWII and they also set up the GI Bill etc that provided the tools to win the Cold War. Conservatives never carried the day anywhere. The Confederacy is a classic example of Conservative leadership. Do we want that kind of leadership for the current US? I hope not

My definition of liberalism
I've pointed out previously that neither women nor Blacks wanted equality because they were liberal already.

Yes, you have to go back over the last couple of hundred years and look at the lives Americans were living and understand that they wanted better for themselves and their children. And it was that which led to the various movements for greater equality. And America has propered over the last couple hundred years and most people have it good as far as material goods goes; but it's sheer speculation to say that the contours of America would be the same without the struggles of minorities for democracy and equality.

I won't put up any ideology as a barrier to people who want better lives. I won't put up the barrier of the Constitution, nor will I put up the barrier of the free market. I won't tell people that I support their desires for better lives but that they can only attain those better lives by following the rules in the Constitution or the free market.

You may have seen me post this before, but I do remember the 1950s. People said that they supported equality for blacks, but that change was "organic" and equality for blacks would come in a measure of time and progress, which we should be patient about. Blacks, they said, weren't ready yet for full participation in a democracy. Whites, they said, weren't yet ready for the blacks to take more responsibility. Blacks would have to learn how to function in our society and prove they were ready; and, so, in the fullness of time it would just happen; equality would steal over the land on cat paws and nobody would notice until finally someone said, "you know what..." And the same could be said of child labor, that would change "organically;" and any number of other things that people were dissatisfied with would just steal gentley and softly over us. Just let the Constitution and the free market work without any interference from government.

politics, business
and society.

3 areas where Dem/libs don't believe in evolution...

McCain Loves to Talk about Obama
Here are a few things he never talks about:

1) Sealing the border

2) The inalienable right to life of the pre-born

3) Reforming the tax system


Will the Republican Party continue to turn a blind eye and rush to nominate this guy out of some deranged fear that if he doesn't hurry up and get nominated he won't be able to compete with Obama? That's seriously weak.

Robert writes...@ 8:37
"But I also dont like the waste at say The Dept of Education."

This is ONE TIME I can agree with you Robert, if ANY of my tax dollars went to educate you they certainly WERE a waste!

McAin't, Ain't
It's that simple, he fails EVERY principle here except the War, and Staying the Course on the Eastern Front is meaningless when he has surrendered the Southern and Home Fronts.
He fails the "Big Government" principle, even as a supposed "spending cutter" because McFeingeld, No Tax Cuts, No Drilling in ANWR and Gang of 14 shows he does NOT understand what REAL CONSERVATIVES mean by Constitutional Limited Government.

He is the slow poison of Socialims Lite that kills the more surely for being slightly slower, accustoming the victim (as we have been being accustomed since The Gipper left office) till the Fatal Dose is absorbed.

At least with Hillybama's Socialism Straight there is a chance that America will choke on it an puke it up! No such chance with The MacChurian Candidate.

Voting for hillybama is my DUTY as a Conservative TO the Republic.

more at my blog for what it's worth.

the big mick

Robert
Stop stealing words - you know, like "quack" and "strategery".

Hal
I think you've worn out your "FDR" and "GI Bill" argument. Regardless of the topic or what liberals are caught doing you always respond with, "What about the GI Bill"!! Your like the 50 year old Al Bundy stuck selling shoes but reliving his high school football days over and over....time to let it go.

Robert
Dude, you flew fighter planes, you were special forces, you worked in a dozen political administrations, (I think you were also a Super Bowl winning quarterback in there somewhere) and now your a doctor.....wow, you're my hero!

Big Mick's Guide to Identifying McBFFL's
McBeech Flying Fig Leaves

There are two major types of McBFFL's

One type is the McGOPL's Menu

McGOP L(iberal) is The Company Store
of the Gilt Bird Cabin Conservative Free GOP--
--brought to you by Michael The Blue Barone's Party that stifles dissent and rewards uniformity. Which, if you stop to think about it, is the opposite of Conservative Principles in the Market Place of Ideas. It is Robber Barons who stifle competition, Monopoly that rewards uniformity.

There are currently 7 McBFFL items on the McGOPLs menu.

McBFFL 1--"We're still better than the Queen Whopper or The LaBamaba Burger"? Anybody need that one explained?

McBFFL 2--The Big Mac
2 All American Beef Patties of War Hero and Leader--Unfortunately Special Orders upset the Robber Barons and we can't hold the Special Sauce McFeingeld, the Mexican Let Us, the Cheesy Gang of 14, Sour Pickles, or OnYon ANWR no drilling.


mick

Icedog
"I think you've worn out your "FDR" and "GI Bill" argument. Regardless of the topic or what liberals are caught doing you always respond with, "What about the GI Bill"!! Your like the 50 year old Al Bundy stuck selling shoes but reliving his high school football days over and over....time to let it go. "

Actually not true. I am reminding you how we won the Cold War and landed on the moon. You folks lie all the time about "NO GOVERNMENT" from what I have seen here most of you would probably not be able to read except for programs like that. The US never was pure capitalism and we came closest just before the great depression. The opening of the Ohio Valley was a government program as was the opening of the west and the transcontinental railroad. We cooperate to succeed. You revisionists are actually laughable. During WWII, US business was nationalised before Germany. Pick and chose sweetie but know the facts are otherwise. Conservativism usually ends up like this Bush Regime - complete failure. Am I clear?

David Limbaugh
writes a pretty good description of the chasm between conservatives and the liberal wing of the party. I believe he also understands why we cannot go along with the process this year in the republican party. We are defending liberty and that which is right, imo. Screw the liberals even if they eventually outnumber us 50 to 1. Every new congressional action takes us closer to the day when liberty will be a quaint memory of a by-gone day. The liberals will pooh pooh that and say they are creating justice, rearranging things to be more equal, yada yada yada all the way to serfdom.

That is what is at stake and that is why I will not support this attempt to stay on the liberal side of the divide and blow up the bridge. If that is their attitude, then screw them. If the party wants to join the other party on the road that ends in a cliff, I will continue to stand where I am shouting look out, turn around you idiots.

Robert
I really wished I had kept all your posts over the last year. Regardless of topic or issue, you are always attempting to claim some intellectual high ground based on your past direct experience with whatever subject or historical event being discussed.

Your credibility would greatly benefit by an occasional, "I'm not sure" or "I'm really not the expert on this one topic".

McGOPLs Menu part 2 Robert's special
Now I am guessing, based on reading over time, that Roberto may be buying the Big Mac-- for the beef-- cause HE thinks the Special Sauce is Spending Cuts and sorta likes what the rest tastes like.

McBFFL 3 is The Mc4/5s Pounder. Only 15% Non-Conservative--unfortunately that 15% is Dog Sheite-- and it's a VITAL 15% McFeingeld, Shamnesty, Gang 14, No Tax Cuts, ANWR. Allan Keyes says there isn't a major Conservative constituency that Mac the Knife, hasn't betrayed.

McBFFL 4 is The McGLP (appeal to Brand Loyalty--unfortunately the middle is left and both halves are cold.)

McBFFL 5 is "The Dead Hand of History McFries us." All the historical precedents, like the ghosts in McBeth. that auger for Conservative Death if we don't heed the warning.

mick

I believe the No Child left behind...
"Starting from the undergrad years all the way toward a PhD...(working on it somewhat delayed due to current assignment)...it has been completly tax payer funded. That doesnt include all the type ratings and other schools you helped pay for. Thanks a bunch Robert"

has been working for you, they allow chilren to pass, who should NOT. I highly doubt that you even have a college degree, unless it is somewhere online that you can cut and paste everything, because when you're on your own, you can't spell Commander in Chief or anything past third grade!

Hal
Short and sweet:

Government can only aid in the creation of prosperity by staying out of the way.

Learn it, live it.

Liberals "landed us on the moon"? I can't even repond.....


McGOPL's Menu part 3
McBeech Flying Fig Leaf (McBFFL) 6 is
"McSert"--served with Guilt--"If Hillybama Wins it's YOUR fault."

McBFFL 7 is "Let us McServatize Your Order"--the Conservative Veep Ploy. Unfortunately a uber Conservative Veep still has Uber Commiequeer Kerry's Vp in the Oval Office. If you think THAT McSucker is going to govern Conservatively you is in denial, girl friend.

thus far every McBFFL I have read either fits one of these 7 or the 2nd model below.

mick

chilren
was intentional, trying to "dummy down" to your level.

Hitchhiker, hitchin with the libs.
"Every new congressional action takes us closer to the day when liberty will be a quaint memory of a by-gone day."

So you say, Hitcher. I know there are a lot of conservatives who are sooooooooooooooo wohooooh conservative, they can do liberal things without their tiny consciences !pricking! them.

This all has to be in perspective. Cahunas wanted Giuliani or Romney, arguably liberals in their own right (history will judge as sure as I am a West!!) and so here we are with McCain.

Hal
Actually 10 minutes of research will show you that the government run portions of the great railroad projects were a boondoggle...cost overruns, schedule delays, massive fraud, etc.

...and btw, Reagan "won the Cold War"....despite liberal efforts to thwart him every step of the way.

The Other McBFFL model
McBeech Flying Fig Leafs continued.

The Robber Barons are not content to stifle dissent and reward uniformity in the Market of Ideas, they are saying "Buy from McGOPL's the product WE choose at OUR price and be glad you got a job and a home." Robber Barons are like that.

But, unfortunately, they have gone farther.
Did you notice Mac is on the WRONG SIDE of THE WINNING ISSUE? Immigration? And where were the Robber Barons?

Now they are ypimping" us to Mac to help their bottom line. They are ABUSIVE SPOUSES!

Here McBFFLs 1-3 are put in CLASSIC Spouse Abuser Language like: "I'm not so bad."

McBFFL 4, Brand Loyalty is "Think of all the good times."

McSert (McBFFL6) is "Think of the Children."

and McBFFL 7,McServatize, the VP ploy is "I'll change."

more below.

mick

Icedog
"Government can only aid in the creation of prosperity by staying out of the way.

Learn it, live it.

Liberals "landed us on the moon"? I can't even repond..... "

I realise that; those nasty facts again. GI bill was a brillant social program and gave us the infrastructure and expertise to take off. You know that the above had not one fact? WWII and the cold war were won by government staying out of the way?????LMAO Please tell me you are a Southerner

Spouse Abusing Robber Barons
The REAL Classic though is Variation on McBFFL 1--the Queen Whopper Threat and McBFFL 5--"dead hand of history fries us."

Here the McBusers say: "You're nothing without us!" "You've no place else to go!" "You'll starve."

Then comes all the other typical Abusive Spouse slams, often in language just like the Commiequeers use--which tells ya where their real affinities (like Rober maybe?) lie.

"You're stupid." "You're Selfish." "You're sleeping with that Rush guy aren't you!" "You stupid, religious, purist, you." You know the drill.

I lump em all under McBFFL 8 "More Abusive McScuses" and the catalog of McScuses used by the McBeeches to cover their uppedrumps is complete.

the big mick

and since the excuses are SO lame
I am voting for Hillybama as the lesser of two evils and hope America chokes on her Socialism Straight and pukes it up before the fatal dose is absorbed.

The MacChurian Candidates Socialism Lite is the surer death by the slow poison that accustoms,
as we have been accustomed since The Gipper Left office, herded down the "follow the moderate road" to the very brink of Socialism.

No hope of that McSame being rejected before Fatality. There is a least a chance with Hillybama. So, they get my vote as my Duty as a Conservative to the Republic.

mick

Robert
Since when did TR not support stupid wars? As secretary of the Navy, he was a GENUINE imperialist (as opposed to the feel-good nation builders of today).

But you are correct that modern right-wingers like me don't like Teddy Roosevelt. He laid the foundation for modern executive-centric politics that imperial presidents like FDR, Nixon, and GW Bush have exploited, to the detriment of Separated Powers and America as a whole. Roosevelt was an incredible man, but his presidency sowed some very destructive seeds in the American political system.

You are also correct that "conservatives are these days no less interested in big government solutions then Liberals are." In this, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Just one question, though: how do you square this complaint with your outspoken support of McCain?

Spouse Abusing EMPBs
Establishment Machine Party Bosses--The Robber Barons of the Gilt Bird Cabin Conservative Free GOP.

I figure 20 years of Infidelity, Unfaithfulness, Adultery, Power Drunkeness, Financial Irresponsibility, Psychological and Verbal Abuse and Now Abandonment are enough.

I've put in my Divorce papers, I've re-registered as an Independent, and as I said above, Hillybama is getting my vote.

mick

Ron Paul Primary Opponent
Ron Paul has a very serious primary opponent in TX CD14. Some polls have him leading Paul for the Mar 4 primary. Whoever wins the primary should win the general easily.

Chris Peden is the Mayor Pro Tem of Friendswood (Houston suburb). Chris is a Conservative Republican (pro family, anti drug, pro military, economic conservative) who favors the marriage amendment.

You could really help the Rep Party if you could donate a few $$. Chris is just starting to run radio ads.

You can donate at http://www.chrispeden.org/

I am not affiliated with his campaign in anyway but I heard own of his commercials today and checked him out.

If Huckabee wanted to do something favorable for the Party he could come do a fund raiser for Chris.



apologies if this is repeat ATT HAL
c'mon, ol sod, if I read your 9:56 to Icedog correctly you're being dumber than you have to be and that's annoying.

If there is a viable and credible historical argument out there that credits something OTHER than Us burying the Commies Economically with increased Military Spending as the Major factor in winning the Cold War it ain't gained much traction.

The System that featured Maximum Government interference in and control of the Economy LOST.
The one that tended to minimize such intrusion--to have "the government stay out" WON!

And "the government" didn't make the Planes--private industry did--"The Gov" didn't pay for it, our Tax dollars did. But even if you credit "the gov" with actually DOING something APART from private industry with redistributed private money then it was the ONE LEGITIMATE area where CONSTITUTIONALLY they are MANDATED NOT to "stay out." "Provide for the common defense." Trying to ramp up Gov interference from that camel nose is equivalent to the spurious agrument of Baby Murder from "unreasonable search and seizure" and The Blob Interstate Commerce Clause that ate Liberty.

the big mick

Rockhead J. Squirrel writes:
It is amazing what people will make up here.

And you are an expert at making things up.

ModMark
Likewise, I'm sure, (also a pleasure when you show up) but as to grammar--remember I don't criticize others cause I don't give a rip--to me this is not only Liberty Hall, where you can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastid, this is a Wild West Saloon and a Bar Room Brawl--no Marquis of Queensberry Rules, Devil Take the Hindmost, Grammarians look out for yourselves! :)

But Mark, you should know that "containment" is rarely a winning strategy. Didn't work with Hitler. Yeah Korea and Nam had their place, but Truman's and Johnston's attempt to "limit" the struggle simply prolonged, and in the latter case LOST it. You cannot give either DEMOCRATIC leader any more credit than you can give America Held Hostage, no Olympics, Carter credit for a damn thing, or Slick Willie and the Asprin Factory credit for ANY effective action against Al Qaeda--ALL those actions were at best ineffective at worst counter productive.

As Coulter and Others have pointed out, and the scholarship is hard to dispute--The Democratic Leadership has, with the Minor exception of Kennedy--and remember the Bay of Pigs, the nearly mishandled Missle Crisis and the Cave on missles in Turkey, the start of vietnam--the Democratic leadership has nearly universally failed to engage America's enemies in any effective way. Their trend was rather to give aid and comfort.

the big mick

Robert on FDR
Did FDR go "Rogue" (that's a "maverick" elephant)
when he went against and behind the expressed will of Congress and the American people and SECRETLY had US Bombers flown to the Canadian Border, towed across by a Canadian Farmer with his tractor, repainted by the RCAF and sent to England?

Which was even more illegal than what Ollie North did?

Personally I think Frankie the Red was always in Stalin's pocket, Elanor in Stalin's bed (at least in her imagination) and a NKVD agent in every FDR Department (the last is factual, see Sword and Shield the KGB Files by Mytrohkin).
Every move Frankie made was to bail out his Socialist Buddy, Uncle Joe.

As far as going Roque goes, Farnkie may have had "the people" behind him, but they were ALL roque CONSTITUTIONALLY as the SCOTUS ruled. Similarly recent Scholarship, out of the Ivy league of all places, has conclusively proved Frankies New Deal Socialism PROLONGED the Depression.

the big mick

by all off to other climes
catch ya on the street

mick

check out my brand spankn new blog on th

robert I'll check back later
but I would suggest Gang of 14, McFeingeld, no drilliing in Anwr, no tax cuts, and above all SHAMNESTY IS "Big Government". McAin't is as McAin't does, don't care what he says.

mick

roberto last un
I can't remember, but wasn't Keating and The Keating Five something to do with the S&L Bail out? Wasn't Mac in that? If I'm not whacked wrong, wouldn't such a Bail Out, if Mac was on board, be "Big Government?" But I admit I don't remember exactly the deal.

mick

Proud Liberal
I still don't know what your definition of liberalism is. Make it simple for me: classic or modern?

Also, I don't know what you mean by the Constitution and the free market being "barriers". Please elaborate.

Big Mick
There was nothing secret about it.

The American people knew about it.
He also raised taxes for a possible war and instituted the draft.
Get this, before an election.
So the American people in their wisdom could if they desired vote him
out of office.
Tom Whalen's _A Higher Purpose_ covers this event in some detail.

http://www.portfolio.com/culture-lifestyle/culture-inc/arts /2007/10/15/Thomas-Whalen-Higher-Purpose

Robert, good point, I knew about
the reuben james--the song is still sung around here--some people knew people on her, --didn't know about our involvement with the Bismark--thanks!

Say, missed you over at Ann's place, wondered where you'd gone. I got more work to do there.

Do you believe that FDR, either by action or deliberate inaction, helped set the stage and "invite" Pearl Harbor which he needed to get us into Uncle Joe's War?

mick

Wrong again Robert
Robert writes: Wednesday, February, 20, 2008 8:37 PM

It's like Bizarro World all the time with you, isn't it Robert?

First of all, I was responding to ProudLib using The Jungle as a rational for government intervention. Many, many modern liberals do.

I'm adamantly opposed to the myriad of foreign entanglements in which we find ourselves. I was opposed to our involvement in Iraq because I don't think Islam is worthy of reform, or one damned dime of my money.

Our foreign policy however isn't in the hands of conservatives and it hasn't been for nearly a hundred years. Any chance that conservatives have any control of our foreign policy (no foreign entanglements) was lost when we ratified the UN Charter. Our foreign policy is controlled by leftists, Rockefeller Republicans, and multinational corporations: a triumvirate hell-bent on lowest-common-denominator equality.

Also, I think you'd be very hard pressed to find any conservative who'd disagree with TR's "Hyphenated Americans" speech. Have you read it lately?

http://www.rpatrick.com/USA/americanism/

McCain would be offended, but then McCain hates conservatives.

everyone
hmmmm--that I will have to check out--the program I saw on it impliled it was Secret--if CONGRESS Knew why weren't they Howling? It was a DIRECT violation of law! If the SCOTUS knew then how come some Pacifist Group wasn't suing?
Where were the American Bunds in this?

Something don't add up, E.

This would be a good thing to do a Newspaper Records Search on.

That the media covered for Frankie is well know, that they would cover for a Pro-Stalin policy is plausible.
Still doesn't address my accusation that FDR was Joe's buttboy though.
I'm not buyin that America was behind FDR in going after Germany to save the Commies--but I'll check out Whalen.
mick.

On Equality...
The finest opportunity ever given to the world was thrown away because the passion for equality made vain the hope for freedom.

-Lord Acton

Two Differences
Here are a couple of differences between conservatives and liberals.

1) Government: Conservatives believe that government is evil and should be diminished or, better yet, destroyed. Liberals are still patriotic enough to love their government because they know that a society without government is a society in anarchy.

2) Taxation: Conservatives want to keep all their money for themselves. As one of them said on townhall, "Why should I pay for public transportation when I drive my own car?". Liberals are proud to pay their taxes because they know that shared responsibility is the backbone of civilization.

LJ, Georgetwin, Primus, and all others
This is the only post I'll be making this evening as I've been busy reading briefs for a case I'm working on here while skimming through this thread at the same time. To say the least i has been VERY amusing.

You who are friends of myself and the Lieutenant defending him while making Wobbie look like the fool he is. For that I thank you

Wobbie, as usual, showing what a classless jackass he is. I couldn't help but notice that every time one of you mentioned the Jeff HAS PROVIDED YOU WITH PROOF of who he is and the authenticity of his rank, Wobbie comes back with his usual list of MAGAZINES that haven't had articles about Jeff.

ONE THING that Wobbie has yet to mention is that shortly after she joined the Townhall family, my daughter (Hockey Mom), not yet knowing what a vicious twit Wobbie can be, OFFERED TO EMAIL WOBBIE A PHOTOCOPY OF JEFF'S CERTIFICATE OF PROMOTION TO 2dLt., signed by President Bush, if he'd give her an email address to send it to.

Wobbie answered her by saying "that is just Some Form," and doesn't prove anything.

So Wobbie CANNOT SAY that we haven't offered to provide him with SOLID PROOF of our claims.

BUT, of course we know that he'll NEVER give us anything to prove who he is.

lilly
You've confounded conservatism with anarchy and government with society.

Is there such a thing as coerced altruism?

Two Differences

1.)Liberals are fascists, also they champion socialism, i.e. Communism. That is the reason they love big government. And absolute government rule.

2.)Liberals love being contrary to the Constitution. Ignoring founding documents & intentions.


Conservatives believe in the tenents of a free society as the founders envisioned. We want to reduce the goverment's size to a manageable and less wasteful level. And yes as the founders new and tried to protect against, goverments can be evil, even this one. And it has gotten out of hand with people(communists/liberals) trying to infuse a different model with the great founders' model.

Necessary evil ???
Conservatives like me wouldn't consider government to be a 'necessary evil' -- it's not quite so nefarious.

It's just the natural evolution of nations of people who believe their sovereignty and value comes from by God Himself (stated in the Declaration of Independence which was written BEFORE the Constitution) - and who individually and corporately govern themselves, while first-and-foremost protecting that founding principle - that our individual / corporate sovereignty and comes from God Himself... and NOTHING supercedes that first principle.

The evolution to self-government from there (we literally govern ourselves in TRUE American government) - is how we get to the US Constitution -- which merely points us in the direction of our inherent self-government. The Constitution is NOT the first principle -- but the individual sovereignty and value of every life - from conception to the grave and beyond - IS the first principle.

Lilly
I'm sorry to break it to you, but you are an absolute fool.

Conservatives know that government is necessary. Unlike liberals, however, we also recognize that government is unable to solve most of our problems, and that it should stick to the things that it does best. (This would include things like building roads, maintaining an army, keeping criminals in jail, etc.)

Your sentiment that "loving" the government is "patriotic" is both naive and dangerous. A government doesn't need love; a government needs careful oversight and constant restraint, or else it will begin to usurp the very principles and liberties that made this country great in the first place.

As for your assertion that paying taxes ought to be a cause for pride, well, I don't know what to tell you. Until poverty is "cured," the Big Dig is completed, and everyone begins to exhibit the remarkable benefits of education, I will continue to think that taxes are a foolish exercise in dog-like obedience.

I would prefer to keep my money and put it to good use. Then, if you want to flush your money down the toilet, or continue giving it to strangers with no oversight, or build statues in Juneau, you can. It'll be just like having a big central government (for you and the other liberals), but fiscally responsible people like us won't suffer at its hands.
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