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Tuesday, December 04, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Mitt Should Can "The Speech"
by David Limbaugh
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I think it's a mistake for Mitt Romney to give "the speech" -- the one aimed at addressing his Mormonism and its relevance, or irrelevance, to his candidacy.

There have long been rumors that Romney would make "the speech," but the matter seemed dormant until recently, when evangelical Mike Huckabee began surging in the polls, especially in Iowa.

Some Romney strategists fear his conservative Christian supporters in Iowa are shifting to Huckabee -- an ordained Baptist minister -- because they are uncomfortable with Mitt's Mormonism.

Huckabee's Christian credentials are doubtlessly helping him with many Christian conservatives. But I don't think Mitt's Mormonism is driving Romney voters to Huckabee. If Romney's Mormonism didn't bother them before Huckabee surged, it isn't bothering them now.

This is not to say that Romney's Mormonism isn't a potential liability for him. I think it is, but not among those who have already been supporting him. The more attention he draws to his religion, the more of a liability it will become. He should leave well enough alone.

Indeed, Romney's hurdles with Mormonism are probably greater than those John F. Kennedy faced with his Catholicism. Protestants might truly have been concerned that he would take his marching orders from the Pope and that his first allegiance would be to the Vatican, not the Constitution. Apparently, Kennedy's speech confronting those concerns directly went a long way toward dispelling any anxieties.

Some similarly fear Romney's primary loyalty will be to Mormon authorities. But I think a bigger problem is that many consider Mormonism a cult with certain bizarre beliefs.

So, you ask, shouldn't Romney give a speech to clarify and assuage their concerns? I don't think so.

With all due respect, many will find certain distinguishing Mormon beliefs disturbing. Romney would be better off relying on people's relative ignorance of other religions and grateful that Mormonism presents itself as more mainstream Christian than it actually is.

Please don't misunderstand. My purpose here isn't to attack Mormonism. Mormons generally are very good people who live moral lives. But it's inevitable that some voters will react negatively to Mormonism the more they learn about it -- and that can't possibly help Romney.

Romney also runs a risk in giving a "religious" speech that skirts all theological questions, which is likely. After all, we almost never hear Mormons talking about what distinguishes their religion from mainstream Christianity. They emphasize -- even on their TV commercials -- their belief in the Bible and their emphasis on Jesus Christ.

If Romney gives a speech that never gets past these generalities, it may prompt critics to probe further and discover there are major differences in Mormonism and mainstream Christianity of which they were unaware.

The teasers we've seen so far from Team Romney on "the speech" certainly hint that Romney will not delve into Mormon doctrine. Romney's spokesmen say it will be an opportunity for Romney to share his views on religious liberty, religious tolerance and how his faith would inform his presidency.

But this approach could be problematic for Romney, as well. People might take offense at Romney suggesting they are intolerant or bigoted for considering his religious beliefs to be a factor. What's wrong with considering a candidates' faith -- or lack thereof -- as part of the mix? In fact, isn't Romney inviting that consideration when he says his religion "will inform his presidency"? He can't have it both ways.

Voters factoring in the candidates' spiritual beliefs are exercising their liberties, not encroaching on the candidates'. For Romney to suggest otherwise is the tactical equivalent of Hillary Clinton or Mike Huckabee saying that criticizing their views is tantamount to personally attacking them. Nonsense.

All of this said, I don't believe the voters' exposure to Mormon theology will hurt Romney as much as the troubling perception that he is something less than completely authentic.

I sincerely believe that most evangelical Christians could support a Mormon -- even if they learn Mormonism is different than what they thought -- as long as he is right on the issues and can be trusted. Does he really share their values? Is he really who he says he is -- about religion or anything else? That's what inquiring conservatives want to know.

They love that he professes to be strongly pro-life and an ardent supporter of traditional marriage. But is he really? If so, why did it take him so long to come around to these views? Was it a religious conversion? How can that be when he's been a Mormon for decades? I know he said that wrestling with the stem cell question changed him, but it strikes me as implausible that one could be moved over a Petri dish and not an ultrasound. But I would love to be wrong about this.

In the meantime, I believe the governor should reconsider giving "the speech."

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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The upside
Now reporters won't ask the "if/when are you going to give the speech" question EVERY time Romney gets interviewed.

Religious preference is making a huge presence in the Iowa caucuses . . . and if Romney can neutralize some of that it will be a net plus.

Huckabee is just being used by Rudy as a tool to take down Mitt . . . and Huckabee seems fine playing along, for now. The Giuliani/Huckabee alliance is disturbing.

http://iowansforromney.blogspot.com/2007/12/giulianihuckabe e-civil-union-solemnized.html

Iowa Evangelicals are being duped into supporting a guy that wants to be RUdy's VP (but VPs don't make supreme court appointments, or get to veto pro-abortion legislation, or . . .)

No matter for Huckabee, since he seems convinced that he, himself, is God's preferred candidate to win Iowa:

http://iowansforromney.blogspot.com/2007/12/rudy-camp-hucka bee-is-unmitigated.html

****"Mr. Huckabee also said that Divine providence was responsible for his recent surge in the polls in Iowa, as he noted that he is the candidate with much less capital firepower than his rivals."****

Can you imagine how quickly Romney's campaign would be over if he said such a thing (Being a Mormon)?

Romney is desperate
So, he will give the speech, and euthanize his moribund attempt to buy the GOP nomination.

Mitt, RIP.

1 - the more urgent question
We must stop asking if the candidates are Christians, arguably an unconstitutional religious test, and ask the far more urgent question: what they will do to end the popularization of cultural Marxism. Cultural Marxism isn’t about us burning incense to Vladimir Lenin and all having the same amount of money; it’s about us burning incense to John Lennon and all having the same amount of power. They are all comrades now. Possibly 50% of the US are reeds blowing in the wind, in despair of our traditional culture, caused by cultural Marxism. It has abrogated the assertion of authority at every level of society. They honor victims rather than military heros. They honor perverts rather than holy men. They honor laziness rather than productivity. They say nobody has the right to tell me what to do. They say you are now a child abuser if you spank your children. They see you as a former slave owner if you are a man trying to lead a traditional family. If you say say hi Mr. … they always respond oh that’s my father, just call me by my first name. They say I’m spiritual but I don’t like organized religion because it’s all about using power to control people. And in the churches they say you are legalistic or judgemental if you try to keep others in the churches in line with orthodoxy or scriptures. They say you are like Taliban if you try to impose Christianity or morality on the US. They only allow us to impose their apostacy on the US in our public schools, community colleges and state universities.

2 - the more urgent question
Businesses that no longer can use the military business model are endlessly trying other models to empower employees. They accuse police of racial profiling. They think Conquistadors somehow were victims. They will never give the military credit for any success. They say terrorists recruit more terrorists because of our military is actions. They call us imperialists even though Britain and the US are the only great empires to ban slavery. We must as Christians wake up and make it a part of a deliverance ministry and demand everyone to renounce every level of cultural Marxism. If not secessionists will permanently divide the US into regions that popularized it and regions that rejected it, and the US will permanently end up in tribalism because parts of the US failed to impose patriotism, traditional religion, traditional moraity, and traditional family. The Apostle Paul was very clearly referring to the Roman Empire when he wrote Romans 13:1-6 “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities. There is no authority, except that which God has established… he who rebels against the authoritiy is rebelling against what God has instituted… the authorities are God’s servants…” If the evil imposed by the Roman Empire had God’s authority then it is not logically possible for hippies who are rebelling against this authority in the US to somehow conclude that the good of God’s kingdom can’t be imposed by these authorities God established. It’s a big lie.

This is double talk


USMC Lt. writes: 12:59 AM
Actually David
From what you wrote here it's clear that you don't know a lot about my religion, the "Mormon" religion.
I know that some other posters here will disagree with me on this. But WE are as "Mainstream Christian" as any other Christian church.
--------
I sincerely do not get it, such as you LT accept the Mormon Doctrines that all other Christians are false, and claim to be part of that same false "Mainstream".

How you can reconcile this is impossible.
Mormons have rejected Mainstream Christianity since the day the Mormon church was born, and born from the rejection of all Christians.

Unreal that you now claim to be part of that very thing.



USMC Lt.
Thanks! I know a lot more charming and intelligent Mormons than I do the so-called "Evangelicals".

Those are the ones who annoy the living manure out of me.

I cannot,for the life of me,understand why perfect strangers feel free to ask me if I have found Jesus!

It is hard to believe that someone would assume by my dress or demeanor that I work for missing Persons.

Mormonism not the issue
I agree that “Momonism” is not the reason people in Iowa are going over to Huckleberry-Lib. Iowa has become a liberal State and I think Huckleberry is actually pulling voters from the Lamocrats who see an MT suit and a carnivore as choices that are unfit.

HEY USMC Lt
Mormonism has indeed called Christian denominations all false - that the LDS is the only true church. I don't have time to do so here, but I can cite numerous documents from the LDS past that do indeed condemn Christians. LDS is a not Christian by any means of the word. Let's ony mention their God. The biblical - Christian - God is an eternal spirit, uncreated, uncaused. LDS god was once a man who therefore had to have a father, and who worked his way to godhood and lives on a planet near the star Kolob. THAT is Mormon doctrine. You worship and exalted man, not the God of the Bible.


It's the Creeds which are in error
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the original Greek New Testament than any other denomination. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.” It was the creeds which Joseph Smith found in error, not the churches. The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) does not subscribe to the Nicene Creed (or any others), just the original New Testament. How can that theology be termed "non-Christian"?

Perhaps the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood). It is encouraging that Paul Weyrich, Wayne Grudem and Bob Jones III, (along with Jay Sekulow, Mark DeMoss, and Dr. John Willke, a founder and past president of the National Right to Life Committee.) have rejected bigotry and now support Mitt Romney on the basis that he is the most moral candidate with the best qualifications.

Romney, Mormonism and Me
I am an excommunicated Mormon by Church President Spencer W. Kimball in 1976. I joined the LDS while I was in a US Navy air squadron overseas. Later I read a book the church leaders said not to read because it disturbed new converts. [Kingdom of the Cults} by the late Baptist minister Rev. William -- now I forgot his last name -- clinched it for me. There is a fundamental difference in belief... mainly from the question from the BIBLE and Jesus' own words, "Who do people say I am?"

Picture
What is up w/that creepy picture attached to this article?Just an eye in a black background? The caption says its Romney partially hidden by reporters in NH. Someone needs to fix that.

USMC lt and Willy Victor 32
As a Mormon I think that we do have significant differences with mainstream Christianity. And I think that is okay. It is kind of mean to call other churches false, but when you call your own church the only true church then that is what you are doing. But if God commands it then what do you do? Disobey? Paul would not shrink from being bold so we ought not.

Willy Victor,

I wish that you would reconsider the church. Consider the motive of the Rev. who wrote the book. Do you really think that Jesus of the Book of Mormon is different than in the bible? When is the last time you read the account in 3rd Nephi 11 about his visit to those people? Doesn't it ring true? And when people argue against the church, do you automatically believe, or do you talk about it with a mormon to see if it is true or not? There's a lot of lying and distortion out there.

Read the Book of Mormon
Like I did at age 10, shortly after reading the Bible from beginning to end. I learned a new word that summer - plagiarism. I thought it was a total rip off of the inspired Word of God, and rather amateurish at that.

Also, Joseph Smith proclaimed himself to be a prophet, yet he never accurately (not even close) prophesied a single solitary event, not one. The Bible is very clear about such people and any sect founded on blatant falsehoods is therefore false.

I do believe that God has used the LDS Church for good, as He has the Catholic Church, which also has many beliefs and traditions that I feel have deviated greatly from Christ's teaching.

Having grown up with lots of Mormons, I find them to be moral, charitable, friendly and decent as a whole, although there are pockets of abuse, even to this day, but probably less so than the population in general.

I'd much rather have a Mormon for a neighbor than a Muslim, Buddhist or liberal, or one as president instead of a Marxist/socialist, but I agree with David that Mitt should let sleeping dogs lay.

No candidate should ever have to defend or justify his personal faith, but with the way the MSM attempts to manipulate politics with their anti-religious bias, it has become almost inevitable.

THEN AND NOW
In 1960, JFK succeeded in diffusing the Catholic issue in no small part because he was not particularly religious and promised to uphold "separation of church and state". In addition, by the time Kennedy was running for President, the Pope was John the 23rd and Vatican II was soon to come.

Then, mainline Protestantism was still dominant. Evangelical Christianity was a niche faith. Evangelical Christianity has grown significantly and (LIBERAL) mainline Protestantism has declined big time since 1960. Evangelicals and Catholics now share some values in common. However, most Evangelicals still consider Mormonism as a non-Christian cult. Because of their middle class values and emphasis on family, they have grown signifiantly. By contrast, many other so-called "cults" have died with their founders.


It's good strategy
I don't think this is so much about Religion as it is about "face time." For all his campaign spending in Iowa, most of America has no idea who Mitt Romney is. The most common response to the latest media template of; a "surging Huckabee" overtaking Romney; has been - "Who's Romney ?"

Finally Romney is in the news. The new media template has Mitt cast as the foil for the surging stereotype Bible thumpin Jesus lovin Preacher who's become the pied piper leading all the brain dead evangelicals. Katie Couric even did her morning update about the Huckster. But at least, finally the country is hearing about Mitt Romney.

This is by far the best time for him to capitalize on the spotlight; give a good account of himself, and take advantage of what the media now has framed as a two way race.

As far as Mormanism, who cares? After 3 decades of a very public life; if one person can point out one time that Romney acted irrationally because of his faith; please speak up. If not, please shut up.

David, ur 100% wrong.
This focuses the news cycle back on Romney. For the last month, he has gotten maybe 1/10th the coverage of Huck and what little he has gotten has been 100% negative spin.

This is brilliant move and I don;t expect him to really address Mormonism at all.

Re: The picture
It's his nose! It's his nose!

I agree...
...someone should change the picture above. I had to try reading the article three times because I was distracted by the eye. Why show this pic? It is very....sinister!!

We can all sit
here and argue about Mitt and Mormonism all day long, but to what end?

Go search the internet and find out what the foundings of the Mormon Church are There are plenty of documents to read, plenty of speeches by their founders to read and I think that is the best, right from the horses mouth. Those speeches are very revealing.

It is very easy to do and readily available.

Do some research and arm yourself with knowledge, then listen to what Mitt has to say.

Mormonsism certainly teaches that all christian religions are "abominations". Not one, not two, but all.

Research who killed joseph Smith and why, will "enlighten" you. There you will find the roots of the Mormon Church and it is anything but christian.


Mitt Romney, all the way!
The picture is just another way to spin the message that "Mormonism" is Satanic,oooh.. mysterious, and anti-God. There is so much ignorance out there on the subject that it makes your head spin. I agree with crescen7 who says, "After 3 decades of a very public life; if one person can point out one time that Romney acted irrationally because of his faith; please speak up." Please, posters, do not get fooled by the excommunicated, "former" Mormons, if they ever were LDS. There is no light in them, listen to their angry, dark and perverted reasoning. They are sad people because, for one reason or another, they could not live up to the standards that Mormonism requires such as, living a clean, wholesome life, paying a 10% tithing, being faithful to their one spouse. They are unhappy people because they don't respect themselves. People who are unhappy and bitter, never can bring joy to themselves or to others around them.

If not, for this reason alone, then the second reason these posters are taking the time to knock a church that they don't belong to or involve themselves in this silliness at all, could be that they are worried about the money they will loose in the collection plate, if the poster himself happens to be a minister or an assistant minister. Mormons do not pay ANY of their Bishops for teaching the word of God, period! Our Bishops hold down a job like the rest of the population. I believe that these two reasons are why there is so much bitterness by some of these posters. Please don't come back and twist the truth, cornpone humphrey, or whoever you are? Mitt Romney will make an excellent President! He is well qualified!

Photo
Well, the photo attached to the story convinced me I can become a news photographer for Reuters. Actually, my 2 year old son takes better photos.

Someone has a lot of pull over at Reuters to be able to sell that photo for wire distribution.

Fly Specks On His Soul
"When a man decides to make his living as a politician look for the flyspecks on his soul."
HL Mencken

Its not Mormonism or religion thats making Mutt Romney crash in the polls, its major doubts about his CONSERVATISM! Thinking of any of these egomaniacs running for The Big Enchilada as spiritual people is laughable. Mutt's smarmy, weird performance at the Anderson Crapper debate highlighted the fact that until he decided to inflict himself on the body politic a few months ago he never stood up for any conservative cause. He was totally absent from the national debate. Now he's asking us to trust him with the biggest job there is, following on the heels of an unknown governor who ran as a 'Compassionate Conservative' and who turned out to be a big government liberal. Mutt had his chance to make the sale and he blew it big time.

Very sad, Mr. Limbaugh
I don't read your columns, this is actually about the 2nd or 3rd time, but it's disheartening to see that you have such a negative view of the LDS faith. According to you:

1 It's so bad that it's a liability,
2 Some beliefs are disturbing,
3 Mormonism is a cult with bizarre beliefs,
4 It presents itself as more manistream than it actually is,
5 The more people know about it, the more likely they will be to be negative about it,
6 Mormons don't try to distinguish themselves from mainstream Christianity,
7 Mormons try to emphasize the Bible and Jesus Christ - falsly.

In one way or another, you are wrong in all of these assertions. You are buying into the anti-Mormon propoganda. I've always thought you were a good man, Mr Limbaugh. Surely you can rise above this level of discourse. The truth about the LDS religion is easy to discover, and you can dispell these myths for yourself if you so choose.

King liberal
He's done that ad nauseum, but everyone cries out for "the speech!", going on for about a year now.

I didn't want him to do it, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this because he is a very smart man. Pretty sure he knows what he's doing by now.

The Speech
David,

I tend to agree with you on this one. I am an evangelical Christian and I do not agree with Mormonism. However, I have a substantial respect for most of them as people of faith. They are clean-living, peaceful, and intelligent people. I may or may not vote for Romney. I don't yet know. But I think that as a candidate he should not raise his religion into an even higher profile issue than it already is.

Limbaugh Misses the Whole Point
The whole reason for the speech is exactly for the contents of Limaugh's article, that evangelicals will find Mormonism to be disturbing when they learn more. Oh really... and just what is so disturbing about them? Evangelical preachers run businesses, and it only makes sense that they would attack the fastest growing religion in the country because it's taking away from their business, and has been for over a hundred years. And the Mormons don't pay their leaders anything for their work. Romeny served as a Mormon bishop and Stake President, levels equal to Huckabee's level of "Preacher." Ask Romney how much money he earned as he served his church, and you'll learn that he never earned a penny. So evangelicals have invented "disturbing" facts about Mormons that are artificially disturbing. The best argument the "Christians" can come up with is the Mormons beleive Jesus and the devil are brothers. So what? Aren't we all God's children? It atcually makes sense once you put your brain to it. Wasn't Hitler created by God? Aren't we brothers and sisters of him? Didn't Hitler willfully choose to be evil? At any rate, Limbaugh's perception that Mormons have bizarre beleifs which will scare voters is the very reason Romney is giving the speech.

Vast differences among Christians
Conservative Christians believe that Jews and Catholics, as well as Buddhists, etc., are all going to hell. Catholics believe that Protestants are well meaning but on the wrong track. Conservative Christians also bash what used to be mainstream Christians, now called liberal Christians, for their beliefs.

Many Christians from these different persuasions try to obscure and paper over these differences. I think it makes a great deal of difference to the political arena whether these differences are acknowledged or not, since conservative Christians are trying to take over the government.

Romney's speech will clarify that there are distinct differences among Christians and hopefully be a wedge for acknowledgement of Christian diversity rather than perpetuate the myth of monopolistic Christianity.

USMC Lt.
Freedom of Religion means freedom to practice ANY Religion or Freedom to practice NO Religion. While I probably wouldn't vote for Mitt as Pastor for my church, I WILL vote for him for President.

P.S. Did you get my answer about Robert on Parker's Column?

Romney does know what he's doing
The MSM were the main ones calling for the speech, and now they are saying how risky it is. Everyone is worried that too much attention will be focused on his religion.

I think it's interesting that people think Romney doesn't know what he's doing in giving this speech. This has been on the back burner for him all along. I'm sure he is prepared to give an excellent address from his heart that will appeal to reasonable and fair-minded people. He knows he will never win the rabid anti-Mormon voters.

This speech will end up reflecting very favorably on Romney at a very crucial time in the campaign.

David Limbaugh-I couldn't disagree more
Mormonism is one of the most mis-understood religions out there. Most of its critics prefer to dwell on rough beginnings of the church or on sketchy accounts of obscure teachings and acts of early church leaders. Those points are far from a true representation of what Mormonism is today.

Whether people believe Mormonism or not - it needs to be understood that terms like "cult", "whacko", and "polygamist" are not accurate or appropriate descriptions of Mormons today (even though I would be more subtle addressing that point if I were Romney.) Romney can leave theology out of the speech completely (and I am pretty sure he will.) He doesn't need to defend obscure theological points.

While mormonism is not exactly what I would call Theological mainstream, the fact is - there is a reason the LDS church is more respected today than 100 years ago. If Romney dwells on the his LDS values held by the church today, and upon how much he has in common with the beliefs of evanglical Christians (which ,politically, is almost everything) Romney should be able to put to bed all fears about a Mormon president. I don't have issue with theological differences as long as I know Romney will not impose those differences upon Americans (and his track record as Governor is very reassuring on this point.)

The timing couldn't be better. Romney's deliverance of this speech will have a larger audience than any candidate could possibly hope for...this speech has been anticipated for several months now. As we are now less than a month from the primaries, it is a time when more people are starting to pay attention to the presidential race. Furthermore, the Christmas season would be bad timing for his opponents to counter with attack ads.

3 columns point out the risks
I have read 3 columns this morning that point out the risks of giving the speech.

It lowers expectations, that is good at least among the journalists. There are real risks and in some ways there is no way that one speech will address all of the difference among the key groups.

Romney is not aiming at converting the hard core "Mormons are a cult and we will never vote for a Mormon" segment. There is nothing that he or anyone can say that will change them.

He is going to ask people like "Katy the Lady" to support him. He is going to ask the reasonable Evangelicals who are consider religion but who are looking at more than religion. He is going after the late voters who decide on good debate performances, stage presence. Romney had a weak debate in terms of style. He is going to try to change that perception in a different venue.

Romney is also going after the press. He realizes they are either going to support him or Huck as the alternative to Rudy.

The press know how weak Rudy really is and how vulnerable he is to scandal. If Rudy drops below 17 in the RAS poll this race will be won by Romney or Huck. Romney has more resources. Huck so far connects a little better but he is just starting to get the hard questions and the rough up job that everyone else has gotten. The Fair Tax and "The Christian Candidate" really turn off the press.

The press can defeat the radical wing of the Evangelicals by helping Romney. For them in a Rep primary that is about as good as it gets. They would prefer Rudy, they like Huck's populism but Huck is a radical Evangelical who hides it well.

Mitt already completed his mission...
The only thing that will satisfy those concerned with Romney's religion is for him to defend or deny the strangest of the extra-Biblical doctrines espoused by Mormonism. That would make for a tedious and unending debate.

I think Romney probably already satisfied his church's requirement for defending his beliefs when they sent him out as a Mormon missionary.

The "speech" is a useless exercise. He's running for the Republican nomination; he's not running for Leader of the Religious Right.

I don't quite follow
People are upset that Mormons say that theirs is the only true Christianity and other churches are wrong? But don't Lutherans say the same thing? And Catholics? And Calvinists? And Mennonites? I can think of very few faiths that admit that the rest have validity (Unitarians, some sufi sects, ancient polytheistic faiths, not a lot more)

Isn't it pretty typical for a faith to say "I have the path"? And if a faith says their way is right, doesn't that logically imply the other paths are wrong?

So why is it a mark against Mormonism that the faith claims to be right? I thought everyone did that.

(For full disclosure, I am not a Mormon, not even a Christian, so I have no dog in this fight. I just find it funny that some Christians bash Mormons for claiming other faiths are wrong, when their own sect probably says the exact same thing.)

To clarify
Just to make it clear:

Most faiths are revealed faiths which claim to have received the single path to salvation, which is why I say that all faiths imply (if not state outright) that other faiths are wrong.

Obviously faiths which rely on personal revelation do not declare to have a single correct path, but I am not thinking of those in the post above. (eg. some Buddhist sects, Breslav chasidim, OTO, and other, even more outre groups -- though even those groups do have certain truths which they do not question, and so still fall to some degree into the category of possessing exclusive truth)

I'm
an evangelical Christian, and yes there are some of my persuasion that take on God's job of judging people. My husband and I come out of denominational churches, his is ultra conservative anti everyone but those who agree only with them; I was raised in the low Episcopal church. My church left me years ago when it ordained women (I'll agree it's scriptural if and when it's proven a she pastor can be the husband of one wife although my former church seems to be working on it,) and
never will now that they accept homosexual bishops. We found a non denominational church.
We believe that regardless of the denomination,
there are believers and it's up to God to sort them out. As to Mormons, I believe they are good, decent moral people, haven't a problem with Mitts religion, and as others have said,
I want to know where he stands on the issues. I also believe he's making a mistake. There isn't a religious test. I would, however have a big problem should a muslim run for that office. And
as the moment, I'm leaning toward Hunter/Tancredo because of their conservatism and being the Paul Revere and Joseph Dawes of our time on illegal aliens invading the U.S.

Romneys religion
has no relevance to my decision to vote, or not for him. I had no idea what the philosophy of the Mormon Church was or is, until just recently, because he, himself, Mitt, is making it an issue.

So out of curiosity, I let my finger do some walking on the keyboard and looked at the Mormon Church. What I found was anything but christian, by it's roots, its secret oaths, its anti christian rituals performed, etc...

Now I think it is very relevant and gives me a better understanding of the man, himself, Mitt. I haven't read anything, since the beginning of the race, that was attacking Mitts religion or even really questioning it. It has been a non issue for some time and according to the MSM his polls have been fine, showing it to be so.

If he does not talk about his faith in his speech and just generalises things, it will be a disaster for him. Mitt is no JFK. He is making it an issue, when it wasn't an issue, as it was for JFK and that will make people curious, just like it made me curious enough to look into it.

If he had just shut up it would have been fine, but as in all the debates has shown, he, himself, Mitt is his own worst enemy. Hey Mitt, here's a clue, just shut up.

Romney Hit Piece in disquise
David,
You show your skepticism in your column, but not just your skepticism of the value of "The Speech" but of the candidate himself.

You state:
"...shifting to Huckabee -- an ordained Baptist minister -- because they are uncomfortable with Mitt's Mormonism....This is not to say that Romney's Mormonism isn't a potential liability for him. I think it is....many consider Mormonism a cult with certain bizarre beliefs...many will find certain distinguishing Mormon beliefs disturbing.
voters will react negatively to Mormonism the more they learn about it..."

Uncomfortable, liability, bizarre, disturbing! You cannot contain your own disdain while attributing these thoughts to others.

You can hardly know how it feels to have others spread this type of rhetoric about what you hold as sacred. No one knows which church is true, no one knows whether what is bizarre to some is holy to God.

The point is that it should not matter. This is all that matters: "Mormons generally are very good people who live moral lives."

That he lives a moral life is one of his best qualifiers. Add to that, his keen intellect, his success in turning things around, his understanding of winning conservative ideals, his vision for America, and you have a great candidate.

And throwing in the abortion, traditional marriage stuff at the end is a cheap shot. There is nothing you can say in a single paragraph on those topics except to distort Romney's views on the subject. Try this column and limit to single subject.

Why?
Limbaugh writes:

> The more attention he draws to his religion, the more of a liability it will become.<

For me, the opposite is true. Mormons are among the most charitable, hard-working, family-oriented, healthy-lifestyle and promoters of sound moral character as any organized group in this country.

How could that possibly be a liability except to the most jaded and bigoted people in the country?

Mormonism Tolerance
When Brigham Young laid out Salt Lake City Township, property sites were set aside for other denominations to build houses of worship check the history..

All churches are different
I am LDS, and fully acknowledge that the doctrine of my church is distinct and unique from other Christian denominations. However, it is also true that each and every denomination is distinct from all the others in one way or another. If this were not so there would not be different denominations. Therefore, it can safely be said that each denomination considers their doctrine to be true and the doctrine of all other denominations to be incorrect.

If we declare churches that profess to believe in Christ as non-christian because of doctrinal differences, it is a short step until we declare all churches other than our own to to non-christian. This is amply demonstrated by the assertion by some that Catholisism is not Christian, an arguement that is rediculous on its face.

We need to get beyond this petty semantical game and focus on the values that we share.

Stick To The Issues
I agree that Mitt should stick to the issues and not initiate a forum on his beliefs. If I had any concerns about him, it would be how committed he is to conservative principles. But, if he's a truly a Mormon "in good standing," he won't misrepresent his positions (unlike some of his potential Democrat opponents).

What Romney should say
Romney should say that Protestants and Mormons share much common ground. However, there are distinctive differences in theology.

I am not sure if he should go into any more detail than that.

He could point out that two key differences are the understanding of the Godhead and in what is considered scripture. However, he needs to hammer the idea that Mormons accept the Bible as scripture and read it. He also need to point out that Mormons may interprets some passages differently but go on and say that there is not complete agreement among Protestants on many verses.

He of course needs to hammer the idea that Real Mormons do not practice polygamy.

King Liberal
Actually, I think Immigration IS the Issue for this election cycle.

Unfortunately, the liberal-biased media has determined who gets the coverage. (at least in part)

When the Amnesty bill was being considered, at least judging by the posts at TH, it was one issue that traveled to both sides of the political aisle. It was the only time I've seen mass agreement from left and right.

It is a travesty that the political ideologues who insist we must maintain the course with big government, etc. will do anything to achieve that end. Including, suppressing the good news about the candidates that SHOULD be getting the traction.

I think all of the front-runners for the GOP are there because they are either a) more of the same, so they won't be elected, or if they ARE will not divert from the prevailing winds or b) have no possibility of crossing the aisle to appeal to the swing voters against the liberal candidate.

Either way we have a liberal-leaning POTUS.

It is just more evidence of the graft, corruption and SCREAMING Money that is in charge of our political system.

HUNTER/TANCREDO ARE the best candidates because they WOULD appeal to both sides of the political aisle. Unfortunately for us, the liberals (especially the media & financial backers) do not want a POTUS that will deal with the border issues.

AND that is the ONLY issue that really Matters to almost EVERYONE in America....Go figure.


perception is reality
i have heard that so many times in politics! but is it true?the liberal writers on this sbject--mormon speech-are making some good input..an iam very conservative! but their points are valid! move on! but common sense here needs to be applied...huckabee is the "christian" leader according to his big time tv ad!! got that folks!
that means mitt ,john,fred,duncan,tancredo,paul are not christians? the arrogance of huckster is an abomination! like when he leaned over and told rudy..want me to help you with that bible question! stuff it mike!if i were all those candidates i'd go after huckster..big time!in mitts case..people have been yaking that he is afraid to talk about his religion..plus huckster is on a temporary surge, dr. land was on tv last night(land is the head of the s. baptist church)
and he said he told romney to discuss his faith
about a year ago..by the way romney has picked up several big endorsements(christian and conservative)it is perfect timing: the "speech"
will bury huckster w/out using his name!jos. smith did make a prophesy...and it came true! the civil war!on christmas day..1832 he said that a rebellion would break out in SO. CAROLINA
AND THAT THE SO. STATES WIIL DIVIDE AGAINST THE NO. STATES ! WELL..HE WAS MURDERED BY BELIEVING CHRISTIANS IN 1844! AND THE CIVIL WAR DID BREAK OUT IN SO. CAROLINA..IN 1861!HHMMM!AND AS FOR A 10 year old thinking the book of mormon was plagiarism....wow! einstein! then write a book of mormon equal..i give that challenge to anyone in the world! it has been tried...failure! back to politics...mitt is the man! he will articulate as time goes by and already has on his campaign stops!ref. of prophecy:doctrine and covenants- section 87:1-4 i couldnt care less if we are called christians..the members of the lords church called them selves saints..hmmm!elvis

Gordi
"Mormonism Tolerance
When Brigham Young laid out Salt Lake City Township, property sites were set aside for other denominations to build houses of worship check the history.."

It's funny that you bring that up, cause I am reading federal documents about the open rebellion of the Mormon Church against the United States of America. The destruction of towns in Missouri? Burning crops, farms, towns of non believers etc, etc...?

Page after page of historical documents, not documents from other religions, but the US Government.

Now I understand more than ever, why there is animosity in the west against Mormonism.

Do you even know your own church's history?

The President of the US has to send the army to stop the Mormons from killing people and destroying towns?

What the heck is this crap all about?

This is BS.

Here we go again, now I'm reading Joseph Smiths own writings and his open disdain for our laws and the President of the United States, from the Mormon Church's own "Church Hist., Vol. 2, page 397"

Go and read it.

This is some pretty awful and serious stuff and goes well beyond just some opposing religious philosophies, but is open armed rebellion against the United States of America, its laws and traditions.

This is the foundations of the Mormon Church?

Like I said before, Mitt is his own worst enemy. He should just shut up. If I can find this information and within seconds, anyone can.

On Immigration
In the parable of the Good Samaritan Christ taught us how to treat our neighbors.

Christ also told Peter to strengthen himself before strengthening his bretheren. No matter how you interpret that scripture I believe it also applies to the immigration issue.

Why would any candidate feel that we can take care of illegals, give them the best we have to offer,for free, at the expence of American taxpayers. Why do they fail to see that this weakens us?

Huck may be a great guy, but he fails on immigration. Anyone who believes in helping out the neighborhood while your own kids are neglected is wrong.

We can't afford to be Samaritans if we are in a weakend condition and are taxed to provide the best for others while neglect our own.


What Liberal Media?
What liberal-based media? The only real liberal based media is NPR. The rest of the media is run by the multi-national corporations. If there were a liberal media as such Bush, Cheney, Rove, and company would have been on the impeachment stand a long time ago for lying about the war in Iraq, among other things, just as the media exposed and helped bring down Nixon for Watergate. But the media has tip toed around these delicate issues, as if not to offend the beliefs of their corporate sponsors. The Bush gang has gotten away with it so far, except for the spying thing and that little mess at Walter Reed where they got caught. Then there was Gonzales with Rove's orchestrations, both of who could no longer be hidden because of a persistent Vermont senator.

Be this as it may, I fear Mitt's Mormanism. I do not fear the religion or Romney's belief in it and personally do not care whether he believes in it or not. I am one of these so-called "cultural Marxists," or followers of John Lennon, as was said in an earlier post, and we harbor certain convictions that who cares about one's religion as long as they do not try to hammer it down on top of you. I have known several Mormans. What I fear is that he will try to impose his morality and religion on us, irregardless of this little piece of paper called the constitution, from the oval office if he gets in, whether in subtle or outright ways. He did this when he was governor of Mass, holding up things like health care. What I also fear about Romney is that he has used his Mormanism to get rich and, no doubt, could try to do so in the White House.

Most of you are such losers
Every person that attends a church thinks their church is the right one. Why gang up constantly on mormons. What have they ever done to make you hate them so? I have never in my life heard a mormon say anything bad about another church. Have you? Why obsess over mormons? Is it an overwhelming fear of truth? Is it fear that preachers will lose their livelihood? If not, leave it alone. Believe what you want to believe and judge others on their actions. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" (words from Jesus Christ found in the bible that mormons are not allowed to believe in).

If there is a loving God, he knows who has been "blinded by the craftiness of men". If He loves His children as I believe He does, He would never condem one of His beloved for something that was not their fault. Give it a break already, believe what you want to believe and vote your conscience. If religious freedom was good enough for our founding fathers, it should be good enough for us.

Get it right.
JohnLemski writes:
Here we go again, now I'm reading Joseph Smiths own writings and his open disdain for our laws and the President of the United States, from the Mormon Church's own "Church Hist., Vol. 2, page 397"

Go and read it.


Did you? Did you read it in context? Or just take the Anti's words? Maybe from RC Evans?

LEMSKI...GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER
you dont have the faintest idea of the total concept of mormon history! you take what you want to read and by pass what you want to ..first of all..the president of the united states when approached by the prophet about being protected by the laws..because mormons were being raped , proptery taken away,and all kinds of illegal abuse was taking place..you know what the presidents attitude was? no you sure as heck dont! he told the prophet.."mr. smith, if i were to side with you...the voters would turn against me" well in other words..too bad ...take a hike your not going to get any help from me" so if that were you limski..if you had any testicals at all you would have contempt for that president..if he didnt offer you protection of the law! and yes some of the saints
in their frustrations,anger did some stupid stuff!you remind me of the people that christ told "you do err thinking you know the scriptures
(history)"now lets see ,does any of this address
soc.security,terrorists,the dollar is about to collapse...which if it does..all of this discussion will be moot!but to take your advice
why dont you shut up! elvis

uisignorant
Yes and now I'm looking at "Brigham Young Blood Atonement Sermon:
Journal of Discourses
Vol. 4, p. 215-221"

And on another page I'm also reading:

M E M O R A N D U M

Date:July 19, 1990
To:Strengthening Church Members Committee
From:Bishop Glenn L. Pace
Subject: Ritualistic Child Abuse


You people are some freaky freaky freaks. What a marvelous thingy the internet is. hold on, let me put up another page and do a quick search.....

What the heck is this "Mountain Meadows Massacre"? Brigham Young involved with that?

"RC Evens"?
let me take a peak.......
"Richard C. Evans
(1861-1928)
Forty Years in the Mormon Church
(Toronto: self-published 1920

Is this the man in question? Found him in 6 seconds. So what?


Anti Mormons
Please be advised that Journal of Discourse is not considered official church doctrine. Further, most of the rest of the sources you choose to cherry pick are not official sources of church doctrine.

Every thing that Pat Robertson has said in the last 20 years is not the official position of Southern Baptist Denomination. The same standard is true for many of the Mormon sources that you quote (usually out of context). A Mormon may have said it but that does not make it the official position of the Mormon Church.

I say a lot of things. Comments on the Fair Tax for example. That does not make it the official position of the Church.

Stop pretending that you are stating Official Church Doctrine when you know that you are not.

I am sure there are a lot of Catholics and for that matter Protestants who can relate to having their own doctrines distorted.

Skep 41 quotes
HL Menken
"When a man decides to make his living as a politician look for the flyspecks on his soul."

So, Skep 41, how does Menken's quote fit in with the Romney issue? It makes no sense to me. As far as I know the only professional politicians among Republican front runners are Giuliani and McCain.

elvis
"LEMSKI...GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER
you dont have the faintest idea of the total concept of Mormon history!"

Ahh helloooo. Tell it to past Supreme Courts, Congress and past Presidents of the United States. They seemed to have a good grasp on the Mormon Church and it's activities.

This stuff didn't happen in some foreign land. It happened right here, in the US.

Go to the Supreme Courts own records, Congressional record, etc and take a peak. It is full of documents, for anyone to read.

How many times has the courts ruled against polygamy? And yet, over and over the Mormon Church kept practicing it, as is self evident by the number of cases that are part of historical record. this was not an off shoot of the Mormon Church, it was the main body, in total defiance of the law.

A few days ago, what the Mormon Church was, is and teaches mattered nothing to me, now I find it very interesting. A non issue, is now an issue. Talk about skeletons in the closet, wow, this is some pretty exciting and revaeling stuff.


Mitt's speech
As a life long Mormon, I'm aware of the persecutions we as a people have put up with. It started as soon as Joseph Smith had his first vision, plagued him through his life and eventually cost him his life. He could have eliminated all this persecution, had he just denied what he had seen. To quote Joseph in his own words,"For I had seen a vision; I knew it and I knew God that God knew it and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation." That doesn't sound like a fraud.
As a church, we have always lived through persecution,being forced from our homes in Missouri, Ohio and Illinois. We have lost lives and property and through all of these, we have become stronger and stronger. We now have members in nearly every nation in the world, one of the largest education systems in the world,sacred temples scattered through the world and the largest organized welfare program in the world. We complete a new meeting house every day of the week. We have missionaries throughout the world. If you are interested in hearing more, they are anxious to share our message with you. I don't think that a "cult" would be able to accomplish this.
As for Mitt, He is completely aware of all this and has reason to be proud of his church and its teachings. His is just the latest of our persecutions as a church. He will prove himself adequate as both a Mormon and a candidate for the highest office in our country. I can assure you that a vote for him will make you proud as I am to be a supporter.

If Mitt were a Methodist
Does anyone of a serious mind for one second question that he would be destroying all the other cantidates in the polls?

Seriously? With his money, business acumen, spotless ethical record, tough stance on immigration, championing traditional marriage in MA, rock-solid family, and tenacious campaigning?

SERIOUSLY?


That David - is why he's giving this speech. Because some people IN OUR OWN PARTY are deciding who they'll vote for based on religion.

And that's not American. In America we're a meritocracy. We don't care about your race. We don't care about your creed. And we don't care about your religion.

We care if you can GET THE JOB DONE.

And Mitt obviously can if you look at his past.

One more Anti Mormon Point
The Southern Baptist Denomination was founded on preserving slavery. They have changed that doctrine and no longer believe in slavery.

Official Doctrines can change. Citing comments by early Mormon leaders who were stating personal opinions is a distortion for two reasons.

First, their comments are personal opinion and not official Church Doctrine then or now.

Second, even if their comments were Official Church Doctrine then, that might not be the Official Church Doctrine now.

Mormons like Baptists can make changes in their Official Church Doctrines.

Mormans
Personally I am more concerned that Mitt is not a Conservative but yes; the more Evangelicals learn about Mormans, the more they are concerned about Mormanism.

All the Mormans I have ever known are good, law-abiding, hard-working, family-oriented people. The Morman youth riding bicycles on their missionary trips are impressive, respectful and polite.

It wasn't until I studied Mormonism (including my ancestors the Turnbows, who were with Joseph Smith) that I realized that they do not worship Jesus Christ or even God as we know him.

The comment that "it is an unconstitutional test" is absurd. It would be unconstitutional for a rule to be made that the President could not be Mormon (or atheist or Muslim or any other religion) but 'we the people' are free to use whatever criteria we please in order to decide who to vote for!

John Lemski writes
"John Lemski
So out of curiosity, I let my finger do some walking on the keyboard and looked at the Mormon Church. What I found was anything but christian, by it's roots, its secret oaths, its anti christian rituals performed, etc..."

Ah so you consulted the internet. Maybe you could fill me in on those secret oaths. If you're speaking of holy Covenants made in the Temple with God, then I can assure you, there is nothing threatening or evil about them. They are absolutely in line with Christian teachings, and obedience to those covenants is what makes most Temple endowed Mormons the the moral, charitable people that they are.

Now that you've consulted all that anti-Mormon trash which is full of half-truths, innuendo and lies, consider the sources of that trash. Then you might consider checking out this link,

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/134

if you are concerned about how Mormons believe about what is the best form of government, government's responsibility toward its citizens and and citizens' responibility toward their government. If you find it alarming there must be something wrong with you.

Paula Jo
Yes, you're free to use whatever criteria you'd like to use to judge people on, but that doesn't make your reasoning AMERICAN.

I might like the Bushes and decide to vote exclusively for Bushes in every single election they appear in, but that's european thinking - not American.

In this country we don't care where you came from, what the color of your skin is, what creed you cling to, or what religion you were born in.

We care about YOUR life. The life YOU have led. What have YOU done with your life. YOU are the person we judge. Not your Dad, not your school teacher and not your pastor.

YOU. YOU are the one we judge.

If you don't like Mitt because he supported abortion at one time in his political career, fine.

If you don't like Mitt because he was born a Mormon, you're not thinking like the constitution or founding fathers would have you think.

Based on merit.

Paula Jo
"It wasn't until I studied Mormonism ... that I realized that they do not worship Jesus Christ or even God as we know him."

You are most correct, Mormons worship the God as written in scripture not the God of philosphers and post biblical creeds.

One other thought...
David Limbaugh obviously missed Romney's episode on Jan Mickelson's talk radio show.

Mickelson kept pressing Romney on church doctrinal issues and how Romney could advocate a pro-choice position previously in his career while being a member of the church, which teaches against such practices.

Romney's response was beautiful. He eloquently explained that Mormon teachings also require abstinence from extra-marital sex, from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea...does that mean a mormon politician is obligated to legislate those religious beliefs into new laws upon the Americans???? Absolutely not!!! Why then would a mormon politician be obligated to impose his pro-life religious beliefs upon the country.

Faith plays a role in politics - but it does not (nor should not) be the sole basis behind every decision a country takes on...America is not a theocracy.

Americans should be pro-life because they realize the rights of an unborn child are constitutionally protected. Americans should not be pro-life because a president is pounding the pulpit and shaking his finger that God will strike you dead if you participate in or encourage an abortion.

A couple of more things
First, when attributing quotes to early Mormon leaders, or anyone else from the pre-electronic recording era for that matter, keep in mind the importance of keeping those quotes in context, not only the context of a particular speech or sermon, but in the context of the body of the individual leader's speeches.
Remember that recording was done by hand by fallible people in those days. Sometimes what they recorded was garbled. Thus the importance of context. In addition, there are those who advance anti-Mormon...stuff, who have deliberately quoted Brigham Young, for instance, out of context, and have cut and pasted parts of speeches to suit their purpose.

Finally, it doesn't matter how many people find a particular belief to be bizarre, it only matters if God Himself finds it bizarre.

A Mormon President
The very fact that Romney was once pro-choice (while at the same time being a member of the LDS church in good standing) is strong evidence that Romney will not seek to impose mormon beliefs upon the people or use the status to promote the LDS religion.

(FYI - a mormon cannot be in good standing with the church if that mormon encourages or participates in abortion.)

Marine Lt
I am assuming that you are or have been an officer in the United States Marine Corps. If so then may I respectfully deviate from the theme of this forum and thank you for your service as well as all others who post here who have or are now serving in the military. One of my two great regrets is that I never served in the Armed Forces of the United States. I respect all those who have honorably served.

Honestly
The Dems are laughing their way all to the White House.

We're tearing ourselves apart over religion.

Catholics believe they're literally eating the flesh of Christ every sunday.

Baptists believe people who aren't dunked under water, or who say, "Jesus is my savior" burn forever in a lake of fire.

Honestly, we are NOT going to agree over theology. Hell, I don't even agree with my wife on it all the time.

So just drop it and focus on a cantidates record and their political platform.

I'm with Mitt because of those two things. I don't give a damn about his religion. He could be a Buddist, Hare Krishna or Scientologist for all I care. I care that he's a thoughtful person, with a platform that matches my own.

Polygamy
All of the major denominations have practiced or made favorable statements about polygamy at some point in their histories.

Martin Luther stated it was the exception to the general rule. He and other early reformers would allow it in certain circumstances. At the end of the War of the Roses Lutherans (and Catholics) officially practiced Polygamy for couple of generations. You had to be able to afford it and treat all wives equally. You could have up to 12 wives.

Does that mean the Lutherans Officially believe in the Practice of Polygamy today? No.

Various early Popes sanctioned polygamy under certain conditions. That was changed in the Council of Trent. Since then Catholics have apposed polygamy. However, the local leaders allowed the practice in Southern Germany at the end of the War of the Roses to repopulate the area rapidly.

The Anglican Church in the Council of Lambeth in 1988 (ten years ago) voted to give communion to practicing polygamists. The Anglican Church NOT THE MORMON CHURCH (Not to be confused with the non LDS so called fundamentalists) currently practices polygamy.

I could go on for the rest of the major denominations.

Anti Mormons
Its funny how Mormons think this label discredits their critics. Just slap on this label, and poof! it is false.

To BG:
The Journal of Discourses is a transcript of the General Conferences in the early church. It was published so members who lived outside of Utah could read up on their General Conferences speeches. Up until the Church was being forced more into the mainstrean around the 1940's, members were encouraged to own a copy of the Journal of Discourses, and it was considered faith promoting. You can still buy a full set of these from the Mormon owned Deseret Books store.

DJF
Which versions of the secret oaths would you like and at what level, the new and improved version or the older version? I like the older versions, it is more direct and to the point. Let me know.


I'm not a Speech Writer ...
I think Romney should tell the world that Mormons

• claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

• believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.

• believe that all governments necessarily require civil officers to enforce the laws of the same; and that such as will administer the law in equity and justice should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people.

• believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.

• do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.

(See the Mormon Articles of Faith, and Doctrine and Covenants, section 134.)

Were I his adviser, he'd have given "the speech" during his candidacy announcement. Short circuiting this kind of vain distraction is always better than trying to play catch up with a hostile media's demands.

Government has no more business running
schools in the XXI than it had running
churches in the XIX, and for the same
reasons.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

And after that
Romney should say that he is a Christian and if Albert Mohler, Mike Huckabee, and the SBC dont like it. Tough. Because they don't run anything but themselves.

The LDS and ARAMCO
Mitt Romney should address, but won't, I'm certain, the LDS/ARAMCO money connection. It is no secret for the thousands of Mormons who work for, and predominantly run operations, security, and distribution for Saudi ARAMCO, the world's largest oil company, that they and their families living in Saudi Arabia are tithing uncounted millions of dollars to the LDS.

Additionally, ARAMCO openly and aggresively hires most of its Mormon employees straight out of Brigham Young University, according to former ARAMCO employee, Casey Clemence, who himself was hired before even graduating from Brigham Young where he studied communications.

Why rock the hefty financial boat that delivers millions into the coffers of the LDS?
Estimates ranges upwards of 30 thousand American Mormons are involved in the LDS/ARMACO deal.

Let us not be afraid to ask: If America were to elect a President, who happens to be a Mormon -- What split allegiance might arise between defending America's need to ween itself OFF of Saudi oil? and defending the vast financial interests and safety of the LDS and their employer, Saudi Aramco?

According to Casey Clemence, (a former personnel and communications director for ARAMCO, who now lectures on emergency and security plans for international companies), Mormons dominate the company while living under tight security.

Even though many respect Mitt Romney's financial accumen, he has not addressed this vital and fascinating question. If America is going to move away from oil, and achieve energy independence, HOW exactly will his allegiance to the LDS and it's multi-million dollar financial intercourse with ARAMCO, play out?

Can we at least see an end to the secrecy surrounding this LDS/Aramco marraige? ALL Americans deserve to know exactly, specifically, who, what, where, when, why and how this major, vital and crucial relationship between the LDS and Aramco is operating in the best present and future interests of America.

who cares
Mormonism didnt keep him from being elected to Governor of the BIGGEST LIBERAL STATE IN AMERICA so whats the big deal. I cant believe all the Christian Left on hear that bash the Christian right all the time takeing up for ROMNEY. Wow what has happened.

DJF, Did Mitt take this oath?
"LAW OF VENGEANCE"

"You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray,
and never cease to pray, and never cease to importune high heaven to
avenge the blood of the prophets on this nation, and that you will
teach this to your children and your children's children unto the
third and fourth generation."

"All bow your heads and say yes."

I have been a Mormon
and I will not vote for a Mormon. I will, however, pray for Mr. Romney's conversion and that of his family.

aramco...so what!
the people working there..can pay tithing or not pay it. voluntary. many successful co. are ....
"mormon owned" so what? probably most co. in america and other places are owned by people of some faith.so what? your question is a good question...sorta..but a little lacking in indepth thought in my opinion! if we become oil independent(dont hold your breath)..and there is a major change..maybe a lot of people will be looking for jobs? that is nothing new in the world of economy!folks..this mormon thing is strictly a diversion thing by the media to divert attention away from mitts accomplishments as a gov. but romney has to finally shut up SOME of the twirly birds! and he will do a masterful job.
just read that the dollar is about to collapse in the world market..if that happens..believe me
we will be worried about food,clothing, homes,
etc. and this mormon thing will look very stupid
romney will serve his country well just like other mormons have w.out all the medis garbage!
you know how long he will be pres. if elected ?i can tell you...4 years! he will have certain big goals..make some very good moves be considered a good pres. then step aside just like he did in mass. he's not a career politician..but a problem solver--olympics,mass.etc. therefore his VP had better be good..and iam confident of that too! elvis

DJF has not responded, so anyone know?
Did Mitt Romney take this oath? Or are you not allowed to answer? Is it a secret?

This from the "SECOND TOKEN MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD".

"LAW OF VENGEANCE"

"You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray, and never cease to pray, and never cease to importune high heaven to avenge the blood of the prophets on this nation, and that you will teach this to your children and your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."


How should we know?
Ask Mitt if he took it.

To know Mormonism is to know that
there is a great difference between the Christianity as described in the encyclopedia britannica and the Bible and Mormon beliefs. Most notably that Christians "have no other gods before them" except the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and mormon males look forward to being gods of their own planet someday. Mormons are polytheists and Christians are trinitarians believing not in three gods but in the plural unity of the godhead. Mormons then recreate the sin of the garden, refusing to bow but wishing to be "like god." But it is of no matter to Mormons who equate Lucifer and Jesus as brothers.

Yes, Mitt should refrain from causing others to look too deeply into Moronism.

The author of Kingdom of the Cults is Dr. Walter Martin that another poster posted about.

The difference between Christianity and
There is a great difference between the Christianity as described in the encyclopedia Britannica and as the New Covenant of the Bible and Mormon beliefs. Most notably is that Christians "have no other gods before them" except the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and mormon males look forward to being gods of their own planet someday. Mormons are polytheists and Christians are trinitarians believing not in three gods but in the plural unity of the godhead. Mormons then recreate the sin of the garden, refusing to bow but wishing to be "like god." But it is of no matter to Mormons who equate Lucifer and Jesus as brothers.

Yes, Mitt should refrain from causing others to look too deeply into Moronism.

The author of Kingdom of the Cults is Dr. Walter Martin that another poster posted

Thumper
The content of the Journal of Discourses was transcribed, sometimes inaccurately, and published between 1853 and 1886 in England. The compilation contains some statements of doctrine as well as other materials of interest to Latter-day Saints who lived far from the center of the Church, including speeches given for a variety of occasions, funeral addresses, reports from returning missionaries, prayers, and the proceedings of a trial.

The Journal of Discourses was produced under the guidance of those who transcribed the materials, including George D. Watt, David W. Evans, and George W. Gibbs.

Skilled in the use of shorthand, George D. Watt had transcribed many conferences and sermons for the Deseret News. He received little pay for his work. Since the Deseret News was not generally available outside of the United States, Watt proposed to Brigham Young the idea of publishing these materials on a subscription basis. Such a plan would make the materials available to more Saints and allow Elder Watt to earn a living with his work. President Brigham Young supported the plan, and a letter from the First Presidency was included in the first volume encouraging Church members to cooperate in the "purchase and sale" of the journal.

Questions have been raised about the accuracy of some transcriptions. Modern technology and processes were not available for verifying the accuracy of transcriptions, and some significant mistakes have been documented. The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine.

Meggy
"Mormons are polytheists"

I read a piece in, I believe, The Journal Of Philosophy, or some academic magazine where the author made the case that mormons are not polytheists but actually atheists. His main point centered around their belief that God was a man once who ascended into God hood, followed by Jesus and other mormons who are good enough to evolve to deity status. In effect there is no God before the man/God rose to diety status, and so there is not God, just a succesion of evolving men.

It's been a while since I read the artice (1997) and I am admittedly not expressing the article's point as well as the author did, but there you have it.

Meggy
Mormons are not polytheists. We Pray to God the Father. Not to Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Mary, or saints.




If I had made the statement that
Mitt is pro abortion or pro homosexual, 20 self proffessed Mormons would have jumped right up and said differently and wrote endlessly why he is pro life now, or what he has done in every aspect of his life, every business he has been involved with etc, etc....

Now that I ask a question in regards to Mitts religion and a vow in that religion, that someone would take while rising in the ranks, thay go completely silent? Very strange.


Did Mitt Romney take this oath? Or are you not allowed to answer? Is it a secret?

This from the "SECOND TOKEN MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD".

"LAW OF VENGEANCE"

"You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray, and never cease to pray, and never cease to importune high heaven to avenge the blood of the prophets on this nation, and that you will teach this to your children and your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."

meggy
Walter Martin defining Mormons=
Ahmedinajad defining Jews

John Lemski
It's just possible that they do not know if he took it, or not. Now, if you can find a record for the exact date that he went to the temple, and find someone who went through at the SAME TIME, maybe they could tell you.

Do you know when he went, or where?

This strikes me as a "gotcha" question, that doesn't really prove anything, at all. Is there something evil about vowing to pray that martyrs be avenged? Not physically avenging them, but praying to God to do the avenging, Himself. "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord," is straight out of the Bible, right?

It's not like it's a vow to take up arms or something.

Personally, I do not know the answer to your question, and I don't see it as a valid political point.

What was your source for the quote, anyway?

This is not personal
I respect you as a person, and most every Mormon I ever met
------


USMC Lt. writes: 2:08 AM


TS,
As I tried to tell you before, but you rejected and claimed to know so much more about my church than I do because you're 3 times as old as I am, WE DO NOT THINK, nor did Joseph Smith write in his account of his First Vision, that all other churches are false.
-------
ts:
Then why start a new church with a complete different view of who were Ministers and who were not.
Mormons teach only they have the right to the Priesthood

--------

USMC Lt. writes:

What he wrote is that he was told not to join any of the churches that were in his area trying to get new members because they were all WRONG, and teaching false doctrines, not that they were false churches.
--------
ts:
Have you read the history of the Mormons how they fled from any association with any other Christians?
Read it
---------
USMC Lt. writes:
Joseph Smith History 1:19

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; .......

-----------
ts:
Yes
From this he claimed to be the only one on the earth with any truth.
That only through him and his teaching could one find the salvation in Jesus Christ.
The very mark of a of man Jesus Christ Himself said was a false prophet.
Magnifying himself
---------

USMC Lt. writes:

In simpler terms, the preachers for all the churches were hypocrites.
-------
ts:
Thats rich too when one reads of the sin in Smiths life, the adultery and fornication all the while claiming visions from God for a new Priesthood all under Mormon teaching.
---------

USMC Lt. writes:
Therefore they told Joseph Smith not to join any of those churches.
--------
ts:
His claim the Priesthood was taken from the earth and restored by him, is from satan.

Only one High Priest forever, Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the Way of Salvation.
Not doctrines of men

Meggy...
Meggy writes: "mormon males look forward to being gods of their own planet someday".

I don't follow a Religion. But, funny thing, as a child I dreamed that God would give us a new planet when we died. I never heard that anywhere else, I just dreamed it up.

I didn't dream of being a God though, just a person with an after-life.

StrivingForSense
Yesterday, I would have agreed wholeheartedly. After doing some basic research and mostly from historical documents provided by the supreme court records, state records and congressional record and free for all to read right online, today I disagree.

"It's not like it's a vow to take up arms or something."

I have no idea of the meaning of this vow, except for the literal translation. Now knowing the events of history and what atrocities have been done in the name of the Mormon faith, by its founders, it really makes me wonder if that vow is supposed to be taken literally. After all it is a secret oath and an oath taken in secrecy has a meaning unto its own.

The source of the quote is from " The Mormon 1931 Temple Endowment Ceremonies".




John Lemski
The source is "The Mormon 1931 Temple Endowment Ceremonies"

Well, first off, Mitt's not that old. Neither are my parents. They have told me, though, that the covenants have changed, somewhat, since they made theirs, years ago. Therefore, there's no telling what Mitt did, specifically. However, they never mentioned vengeance.

Secondly, what is your source for "The Mormon 1931 Temple Endowment Ceremonies"? Is this an official document, published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? I highly doubt it, as I have been taught that the endowment ceremonies are sacred, and not to be discussed outside the temple. My parents have never said the words of the covenants outside the temple, although certain aspects may be discussed in general terms.

If this is not an official document, then the source is suspect. Is it produced by someone who received their endowment, and then broke the oath to hold it sacred, and started telling all about it? In that case, the source is definitely untrustworthy, as they have broken a covenant made with the Lord God, so how can you be sure they didn't make it all up, anyway?

Third, consider the wording, please. It speaks of the third and fourth generation, which, you may note, have passed away since the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, Jr., the prophet for whose blood they're supposed to pray for vengeance, based on that quote. If the third and fourth generation are passed away, maybe it no longer applies.

keep it up lemski
and eventually...you may get the light..i was a real anti mormon..which you have not claimed to be...but i was..a long story too long to relate here...the harder i went against it..eventually i started to realize... it was true..thru constant study/prayer! sorta like paul standing around and holding the cloaks of the enemies of the saints(they were not called christians) meaning followers of christ..as the enemies stoned the saints to death! then on the way to damascus..well you should know the rest..
but here again..i thought this was to be about political issues?
elvis

Big G
Walter Martin is a name that a poster was trying to think of. I did not say that he defined Mormonism. The Mormon patriarchs have done a fine job.The writings of Joseph smith and Brigham Young will do suffice!

Big G., if you are a mormon you know very well that men are eager to climb up the ranks of good works in order to achieve their "planet" and their "godhood." Any mormon who denies that is either dissembling or hasn't gone deep enough to figure it out. Poor women must marry one of these evolved males in order to have any status in the afterlife.

The logic of Aristotle and the Bible demands that like begats like. Yet in the mormon celestial kingdom we have gods of flesh and bone begetting with their celestial multiple wives spirit children who need to go to earth to pick up a body of flesh.

Talk about a logical snaffoo

By their fruit you will know them.
Look at Romney's character, and how he's lived his life. The fact that Giuliani is a Catholic doesn't really tell you much about his character as a husband, or how he would govern, for that matter.

I'd rather have a Muslim, Scientologist or Atheist whose word is his bond, who honors and believes in the principles embodied in the Constitution and in carrying out his oath of office, than a Baptist, Methodist or Episcopalian who has no honor and no morals, and views his office cynically as a personal accomplishment rather than a sacred trust.

get some perspective
There is nothing in Mormonism that will send you to hell as fast as attending a public school in the US.

for Dr_B
Dr_B writes: "The Dems are laughing their way all to the White House. We're tearing ourselves apart over religion."

The GOP is tearing itself apart over a lot of things, not just religion:

The Rudy Giuliani supporters, the Ron Paul supporters, the Hunter/Tancredo supporters, and the Huckabee supporters disagree so sharply on the most basic issues of domestic and foreign policy that it's hard to believe they're all in the same political party. Toss in the fact that Huck's supporters just want to vote for a Christian evangelical like them and you have even more division.

And that's a big reason why the GOP is likely to lose the next election. Republicans can't agree on what their message to the voters should be anymore.

I don't know how the GOP Platform Committee can even write a 2008 Platform that the Rudy supporters, the Huck supporters, the Tancredo supporters and the Ron Paul supporters can all feel comfortable with. There are going to be lots of disgruntled Republicans who won't enthusiastically support it, no matter what it says.

John Lemski
I don't have time to stay on Town Hall every minute. I posted my comments only a few hours ago.

Interesting source you have. It happens that the first LDS Temple was built in 1836, about five years after the 1931 Temple Endowment that you quote.

Maybe you could list the atrocities you say the early Mormons committed. Perhaps you're referreing to the Mountain Meadows massacre. If so, by taking that tragedy out of historical context, you are tarring all Mormons of the era, and by implications all of today's Mormons, with the same brush. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was caused by a wrong headed notion of self-defense by some of the leaders of the Mountain Meadows area. At the time an Army sent by the President of the United States was on its way to Utah to take care of the "Mormon problem". The Saints of the day were in a defensive mode. Some members of the Francher party were from Missouri and had made threats about returning to from California with an army. In view of atrocities committed against Mormons in the East, including the execution of Joseph Smith without benefit of due process, the reaction of a few of the Mountain Meadows Mormons was understandable though certainly not supportable.

StrivingForSense
I have no idea if the document is valid or not. I have no idea what is correct or not correct in the teachings of Mormonism. Simply I asked a question, a yay or nay would have sufficed or at least an explanation of those posters above, who spout off Mormon Morals, Dogma and Doctrine. But alas, nothing but silence.

As I posted just recently, they know Romneys entire life, from childhood to adulhood and every facet in between. But remain silent on a simple religious question. Today, my research has been 98% historical record. Tommorrow, who knows, but my interest is definately a very curious one.


for deadpan
deadpan writes: "Look at Romney's character, and how he's lived his life. The fact that Giuliani is a Catholic doesn't really tell you much about his character as a husband, or how he would govern, for that matter."

But that's why Huckabee is the one surging in the polls, not Rudy Giuliani. Today's Rasmussen poll actually puts Huckabee tied with Rudy among all GOP voters nationally.

Romney has led a morally straight personal life, no question. But so has Huckabee--and Huckabee is an ordained Baptist minister as well.

Given a choice between a happily married Mormon (Romney) and a thrice-divorced Catholic (Rudy), Christian evangelicals may well choose the happily married Mormon. That's what seemed to be happening till the YouTube debate.

But now, Huck has established himself as a viable candidate. So given a choice between a happily married Mormon (Romney) and a happily married Baptist minister (Huckabee), they will probably go with the Baptist minister.

Meg


Whatever God has planned for me in the afterlife I dont concern myelf with. I concentrate on the here and now.

You are right though, like begets like, and as children of God we are all gods, as God is our Father.

The logical snafoos of Christiandom are the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed.

Big G
Ya might want to concern yourself.

aDNA
I dont concentrate on what god will have me doing. I concentrate on following God now.

aDNA
I'm not preocupied with whether Ill be singing in a choir, playing a harp, or the creation of planets. Those things do not concern me. It is all specualtion and is no concern to me.

I'd rather concentrate on the things I have influence over, myself, my family, religion, school, work.

Illegal.immigrants & Romney!
Lawn work at Romney’s home still done by illegal immigrants

How big an issue will this be for Romney?

Ricardo Saenz, owner of the company that employed illegal immigrants, worked on Romney’s lawn recently.

By Maria Cramer and Maria Sacchetti, Globe Staff; and Connie Paige, Globe Correspondent

Standing on stage at a Republican debate on the Gulf Coast of Florida last week, Mitt Romney repeatedly lashed out at rival Rudy Giuliani for providing sanctuary to illegal immigrants in New York City.

Yet, the very next morning, on Thursday, at least two illegal immigrants stepped out of a hulking maroon pickup truck in the driveway of Romney’s Belmont house, then proceeded to spend several hours raking leaves, clearing debris from Romney’s tennis court, and loading the refuse back on to the truck.

In fact, their work was part of a regular pattern. Despite a Globe story in Dec. 2006 that highlighted Romney’s use of illegal immigrants to tend to his lawn, Romney continued to employ the same landscaping company – until today. The landscaping company, in turn, continued to employ illegal immigrants

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/lawn-work-at-romne ys-home-still-done-by-illegal-immigrants

John Lemski writes:
"I have no idea if the document is valid or not. I have no idea what is correct or not correct in the teachings of Mormonism. Simply I asked a question, a yay or nay would have sufficed or at least an explanation of those posters above, who spout off Mormon Morals, Dogma and Doctrine. But alas, nothing but silence."

Oooookaaay, John. This seems inconsistant with your earlier posts. Now to continue my refutation, neither the Congressional Record nor all Court Documents are necessarily fountains of Truth. The Congressional Record is merely a record of what is said (and done) in Congress. Much of what is said in Congress is opinion. To believe that the U.S. Courts have been purjury free during their entire existance or that all purjurers have been caught in their purjury would be foolish. Professional historians are pretty sure that the validity of historical documents is not based on the individual document alone. Much of what is known of history is at best an approximation of what actually occurred.

Now, John, my suggestion is that you access this
website:

http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/

That will give you basic Mormon beliefs. If you think that Mormons have beliefs that will endanger the U.S. if Romney is elected, or that will endanger others in their own beliefs, then please be specific in your questions. I will do my best to answer or to explain why I cannot answer. If I don't know the answer, I will try to find where you can get it.

Media applies religious test to Huckabee
The media has been grilling Huckabee repeatedly for months about his faith, his beliefs on creation, etc. See Charlie Rose's interview or Chris Matthew's interview on Hardball for examples.

I submit the media should not apply religious tests to candidates unless it's prepared to apply these to all of them. How about asking Fred Thompson about the frequency of his church attendance? Or asking Giuliani about his pro-choice views and how it conflicts with the Catholic Church? As even Rev. Pat Robertson stated, "We are electing a commander-in-chief, not a theologian-in-chief."

More at rightsmart.blogspot.com

Temple oath
Mr. Lemski, though I can't address with certainty what may have been done in 1931, I can categorically say that in 1968 the oath you cite was not used. In fact, I do not recognize a single clause from it (and no, my memory is not that bad).

"But whom say ye that I am?"
Peter's response is heartily endorsed by Mormons everywhere, "Thou art the Christ." "We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophecy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins."

Mainstream?
It was Mormons who lobbed the attack against mainstream Christian groups long ago and for most of their history they rejected the community of Christians (and visa versa). No wonder, they practiced polygamy! Gosh, I wonder why THAT bothered REAL mainstream Christians?

Talk about overthrowing a culture!

Now they want in (for the presidency no less) and suddenly have co-opted being "mainstream" title for themselves.

BOULDERDASH!

This flip-floping seems to be a characteristic of Mormonism.

DJF
"John. This seems inconsistant with your earlier posts."

I have claimed no special knowledge and also said I have only just today and only partially yesterday looked into historical documents in regards to the Mormon Church, albeit from a judicial and governmental point of view. The 1931 document was one of the few I read not from a government archive. I suppose if I were really motivated I would go to a major library and look for old newspaper articles on the national database, for the time period of any incidents previously mentioned. Somehow I doubt the national press at the time would report it any different, than the government, considering they greatly relied on government information, or the survivors of those incidents, for their reporting.

No different than today.

If what you are saying is such, that there was an improper bias towards the Mormon Church by the government of the United States and there is evidence to support, that claim, just simply petition/sue the government to strike those documents from the historical record. It should not be a problem, considering the PC of the day and the will of congress to appease everyone.

However, I will believe the historical documents of these United States, unless there is more than substantial evidence, to the contrary.

ChuckP
Thank you for your response, in regards to the 1931 document.

USMC Lt.
Buona sera, mio affascinare! Congettura che e su un'altra colonna.

Sorry I bugged out "early" last night. Hubby was done with his game early!

Spot On!
"People might take offense at Romney [and shill lawyer Hugh Hewitt] suggesting they are intolerant or bigoted for considering his religious beliefs to be a factor. What's wrong with considering a candidates' faith -- or lack thereof -- as part of the mix? In fact, isn't Romney inviting that consideration when he says his religion 'will inform his presidency'? He can't have it both ways."

He can have it both ways if the audience is vulnerable to "confidence tricks." Read the Wikipedia entry. Unfortunately, Wiki doesn't contain a section for religious 'flim flam'.

Ever since the inclusive neo-evangelicals (Ockenga, Henry, Graham, Barnhouse, etc.) opened the door to the Pentecostals in the '50s, its been downhill into deeper and deeper heterodoxy.

If you use the Internet for news, you'll soon find that there's some major religious scandal nearly every week!

The Book of Mormon: Overtly Racist
With all due respect, thanks for yet another “white version” of why Romney’s Mormonism shouldn’t matter. The media doesn’t seem to pick up on the fact there’s overt RACISM in the Book of Mormon itself—and how that makes people of color feel watching this being swept aside as “no big deal.” Perhaps these pundits are ignorant to that fact or perhaps because they are white it doesn’t bother them. A very large portion of the Evangelical Christians are black and people of color. Christians don’t only denounce Mormonism because it is a cult, more specifically it’s because the Book of Mormon, which Mormons consider their “bible,” STILL contains overt racist “scriptures” against people with “dark skin.”

The Book of Mormon that Romney believes and supports, states that God curses certain individuals with dark skin; the races are determined by how worthy individuals were prior to this mortal life; and blacks were not as faithful in their first estate; that God cursed people with dark skin to keep them from interbreeding with their white brethren; and that God blessed some who repented with white skin. Nothing concerning the revelation in 1978 to give "all worthy males members" the priesthood invalidates or denounces those racist beliefs.

SOURCES: (Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:61-7; McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 527-8; Alma 3:6-9; 2 Ne. 5:21-4; and 3 Ne. 2:14-6).
http://www.mormoninfo.org/ MORMON RACIST DOCTRINE: http://www.realmormonhistory.com/god&skin.htm

Now, if Romney were to denounce the Book of Mormon, that would be a different story.

So next time you report on why Evangelical Christians don’t accept Romney due to his Mormonism, be sure to include one of the biggest reasons: RACISM in the Book of Mormon. Otherwise, you’re just not reporting the whole truth.

Bigotry
No matter how you slice it, this country is bigoted and in a big way. No amount of debate will change that. Many say Mormonism is weird, a cult, ect. Didn't the mainstream inhabitants of the earth say that about the early Christians? Moreover, did anyone ever consider that perhaps mainstream/Modern/traditional Christianity is bogus and out of the norm when comparing it to the original teachings of the ancient Church?

It won't really matter
In the end, I think it won't really matter if Romney gives the speech or cans it. Romney was a fine enough governor and even a viable candidate. But he is not what America needs at this time.

According to Rassmussen today, Gov Huckabee is now tied with Mayor Giuliani for first place nationally. Gov Huckabee's surge is not just an Iowa "evangelical" phenomenon. As more and more people start to see and hear what Gov Huckabee has to say, they are starting to realize that he more than any other candidate understands ordinary Americans and that he inspires us. We are finding both his message and his consistent, principled delivery of his message to be refreshing in an age when we've grown tired or cynical of all the petty, back and forth mud-slinging in politics as usual.

Any of the Republican candidates would be far better than the Democratic alternative whoever it ends up being - but Huckabee is showing himself to be a genuine leader, someone who is at once confident, capable, consistent, and conservative - that is why he is surging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr58xZdHo9Q


First is last and last is first

ts writes:
Only one High Priest forever, Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the Way of Salvation.
Not doctrines of men




USMC Lt. writes: 1:52 AM
AGAIN,

WELL, you've got the part write about the Doctrines of Men being wrong. But only one high priest?
-------
ts:
If you knew the Bible.....

One High Priest, Jesus Christ who is now in the Heavens itself, the Presence of God and has offered once and for all the blood for the sins of the world.

You need a working understanding of the Levitical Priesthood to understand this.

The High Priest went into the Holy of Holies once a year to offer up a blood sacrifice for the people.


Heb 8:3 -
For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Heb 9:7 -
But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

That is the function of the High Priest.
Fulfilled in Jesus Christ.



Heb 9:7
But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Heb 9:11 -
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 9:25 -
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;



Heb 5:6 -
As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.



Heb 6:20 -
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.



Heb 7:17 -
For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.




Learn it, then you can see Smith is a false teacher







For the LT
You mention the Pope as if he is considered a High Priest.

He may be by some, who knows, he is not one who is a biblical High Priest though.

The Function of the High Priest under the Levitical Law was to go into the Holy of Holies once a year to offer a sacrifice for the sins of the people.
Offering a BLOOD Sacrifice.
No one does that since Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ done away with the Levitical Priesthood for all men as He Has Entered into Heaven itself and Offered the Sacrifice for All sins of the world ONCE.
Not every year as the High Priest did under the Law of Moses.

To then say that the Priesthood was taken from the earth is to call Jesus Christ a liar.


Mt 28:20 -
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

At no time since the High Priest, Jesus Christ made the ONE and ONLY Sacrifice for Sins, been inaccessible to all men.
He has been available for around 2000 years for every single man who has been born on this earth.

And God is not so impotent He has allowed satan to stop His Ministry being the ONE and ONLY High Priest mankind will ever need or HAVE.

God has never lost control, and only satan would have men to believe He did.
Smiths lying vision was from the devil himself.




LT writes:
You can't prove that he doesn't, or Joseph Smith(or any of his successors) didn't actually receive revelations from God any more than you can prove that the early prohets didn't.
--------
ts:
Yes I can and just did.
There is but ONE High Priest who has offered a Blood Sacrifice for all people, Jesus Christ.
Not Smith.
Proves Smith had no vision from God.
I do think he got a vision alright, from the devil himself.
--------

LT writes:
But believe as you wish. I'm done trying to explain this to you.
-----
ts:
You cannot teach cause you do not even know the subject matter yourself LT.
--------

LT writes:
After all, you're three times as old as me, so you know more about a church you don't belong to than one who does belong to it, and has for 21 years.
------
ts:
100 Percent Correct
I know your church MUCH BETTER, than you do.

Facts versus prejudice and perceptions
Faith, Family, Facts, and Fruits

Elder M. Russell Ballard
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

The growing prominence of the Church and the increasing inquiries from others present us with great opportunities to build bridges, make friends, and pass on accurate information.

see brief factsheet - article at this link:
http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775- 9,00.html


also perhaps of interest -

L.D.S Facts from Ford Motor Company

An interesting article written by Ford Motor Company for their employees.
It was written in February from the 'Ford Interfaith' group as a message
about the Church. The Ford Interfaith group promotes unity by sharing
information from all faiths and features these types of articles about all
religions and faiths from time to time.
QUICK FACTS & INTERESTING TIDBITS about the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints

Fleeing continued mob attacks, 158 years ago today the first Mormon pioneers
desperately started their Westward trek from Illinois in the dead of winter. Of the
70,000 who began this 1300-mile journey, 6,000 were buried along the way,
including many children. The following are quick facts and interesting tidbits
about this now flourishing church.
OVERVIEW

* Named "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"; informal nicknames
are "LDS" or "Mormon."
* Believes it's the Lord's restoration of original Christianity as foretold to occur
before Christ's Second Coming.
* Core focus is that Christ and His teachings bring happiness in this life and
exaltation in the next.


FACTS continued
HISTORY

* In 1820 14-yr-old Joseph Smith told of a vision of God and Christ foretelling
a church restoration.
* Organized in New York in 1830, the church moved to near Cleveland , then
near Kansas City , then Illinois .
* Fleeing Illinois , Mormon pioneers founded Salt Lake City in Utah and over
600 other Western communities.
SALT LAKE CITY
* Temple Square in Salt Lake has over 5 million annual visitors, more than
the Grand Canyon .
* The Mormon Tabernacle Choir is the world's most famous and has the
world's oldest radio program.
* The Salt Lake Temple is the most famous, but there are 128 other temples
built or underway.
* Home of the world's largest genealogy database; visit it online or through
3,700 free branch libraries.
ACTIVE CONGREGATIONS

* Sunday services entail a three-hour block of three meetings; about 27,000
congregations exist worldwide.
* Highly vibrant programs exist for youth, children, singles, men, and women;
very strong family focus.
* Everyone has a calling; some surveys show LDS have the highest U.S.
attendance and service rates.

* Families receive personal fellowship visits at home from other members on
a monthly basis.

FACTS continued
FINANCES
* Members tithe 10 percent, plus donate generously to the needy the first
Sunday of each month.
* Clergy and all other congregational positions are unpaid (however, much
of the janitorial is paid).
* The church has no debt; all buildings are paid for in cash (average of
two new congregations a day).

* The paid positions in Salt Lake are famously low-salaried; funds are
frugally used and tightly audited.
HEALTH CODE
* With a health code from 1833, LDS avoid alcohol, tobacco, illegal drugs,
coffee, and tea (herbal tea is ok).
* This 1833 code also teaches grains (especially wheat), fresh fruits and
vegetables, and sparing use of meat.
* A UCLA study showed that active LDS live longer than most Americans,
men by 11 years, women by 8.
* Utah is 50th in smoking, alcohol consumption, drunk driving, heart disease,
cancer, and sick days.
EDUCATION

* With four colleges, Utah 's BYU with 30,000 students is the largest single-
campus private college.
* BYU Independent Study with 130,000 students is North America (340 web
courses, 530 via mail).
* Seminary, a daily class usually held around 6:00 A.M., serves 376,000
high school students.
* There are Institutes of Religion at 1,950 colleges worldwide that serve
367,000 college students.
* The church operates schools in parts of the Pacific Ocean and Mexico
for 10,000 students.
* Utah is 50th in spending per pupil, but first in adults that graduated
from high school and attended college.

FACTS continued
WOMEN

* In 1842 the "Relief Society" was organized; it's the largest women's
organization in the world.
* Wyoming was first to allow women to vote; Utah was second, two months
later, in 1870.

* Women preach from the pulpit and serve as organization presidents,
teachers, committee chairs, etc.
SHARING CHRIST'S GOOD NEWS
* 61,000 missionaries serve in 165 countries; 93 percent are college-age;
22 percent are female.
* Unpaid and paying their own way, most work 65 hours a week for two
years, often in a new language.
MEMBERSHIP DISTRIBUTION
* LDS are 70 percent of Utah , 30 percent of Idaho ; after Catholics, LDS
are the largest sect in 10 states.

* The church has 5.5 million members in the U.S. , making it the fourth
largest individual U.S. denomination.
* Some memberships: New Zealand 95k, Japan 115k, UK 175k, Philippines
500k, Brazil 900k, Mexico 925k.
* Worldwide 51 percent are female; about 55 percent are not Caucasian;
about 70 percent are converts.

FACTS continued
MEMBERSHIP GROWTH

* For the last 15 years, every day an average of 800+ people worldwide
joined the LDS church.
* Half of the growth is in Latin America, but the rate of growth is highest
in Africa and the former Soviet bloc.

* Worldwide membership just passed 12 million, a tenfold increase in 50
years.
* In 1984 a non-LDS professor estimated 265 million members by 2080; so
far growth has been faster.

* As this growth has been steady, he said it will be the "first 'new' major
world religion since Islam."
CHARITY/SERVICE
* Members in need obtain welfare from the LDS Church (thus Utah
government welfare spending is very low).
* LDS donate time at 220 welfare storehouses or canneries and about 400
farms (a FL ranch is 312k acres).
* There are 210 employment centers placing over 175,000 people annually,
and 64 family service centers.
* The church operates 46 thrift stores, in part to provide employment for
the disadvantaged.
* The 61,000 missionaries spend half a day each week doing
non-proselytizing community service.

FACTS continued
HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE
* Over 200 million pounds of food, clothing, and medicine were donated
in the last 20 years in 147 countries.

* Almost all of this help is to non-LDS; LDS charities also work with and
donate to many non-LDS charities.

* Very rapid disaster relief has been given in 144 major disasters since
1986.
* Almost 3,000 welfare "missionaries" work without pay in 55 countries
(farm instructors, doctors, teachers...).
* LDS charities fund a wide variety of projects like drilling water wells
or funding small business startup loans.
* New in 2001, members in poor areas can get low-rate college loans;
10,000 loans have been made to date.
GRAB BAG
* Utah is first in: charitable giving, scientists, household computers,
children with two parents, and birth rate.
* Noted LDS included five senators, the Osmonds, Gladys Knight, Steve
Young, and the inventor of TV.
* LDS played a key role in the 2002 Winter Olympics; the chair is now
the governor of Massachusetts .
* Hawaii 's #1 tourist site is the LDS Polynesian Cultural Center ( Tonga
and the Samoas are one-third LDS).
* LDS have sponsored Boy Scout troops since 1913; 23 percent of all
Scout troops are LDS.
* The BYU Women's Cross Country were national champions or in second
place each of the last seven years.
DETROIT AREA
* The Detroit metro area has 30 congregations; the Dearborn chapel is on
Rotunda by Ford's Building #5.
* Detroit has a temple, storehouse, cannery, employment and family service
office, and family history libraries.
* LDS include former Governor Romney, three former Lions quarterbacks,
and hundreds of Ford employees.

FACTS -
HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE
* Over 200 million pounds of food, clothing, and medicine were donated
in the last 20 years in 147 countries.

* Almost all of this help is to non-LDS; LDS charities also work with and
donate to many non-LDS charities.

* Very rapid disaster relief has been given in 144 major disasters since
1986.
* Almost 3,000 welfare "missionaries" work without pay in 55 countries
(farm instructors, doctors, teachers...).
* LDS charities fund a wide variety of projects like drilling water wells
or funding small business startup loans.
* New in 2001, members in poor areas can get low-rate college loans;
10,000 loans have been made to date.
GRAB BAG
* Utah is first in: charitable giving, scientists, household computers,
children with two parents, and birth rate.
* Noted LDS included five senators, the Osmonds, Gladys Knight, Steve
Young, and the inventor of TV.
* LDS played a key role in the 2002 Winter Olympics; the chair is now
the governor of Massachusetts .
* Hawaii 's #1 tourist site is the LDS Polynesian Cultural Center ( Tonga
and the Samoas are one-third LDS).
* LDS have sponsored Boy Scout troops since 1913; 23 percent of all
Scout troops are LDS.
* The BYU Women's Cross Country were national champions or in second
place each of the last seven years.
DETROIT AREA
* The Detroit metro area has 30 congregations; the Dearborn chapel is on
Rotunda by Ford's Building #5.
* Detroit has a temple, storehouse, cannery, employment and family service
office, and family history libraries.
* LDS include former Governor Romney, three former Lions quarterbacks,
and hundreds of Ford employees.

FACTS
HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE
* Over 200 million pounds of food, clothing, and medicine were donated
in the last 20 years in 147 countries.

* Almost all of this help is to non-LDS; LDS charities also work with and
donate to many non-LDS charities.

* Very rapid disaster relief has been given in 144 major disasters since
1986.
* Almost 3,000 welfare "missionaries" work without pay in 55 countries
(farm instructors, doctors, teachers...).
* LDS charities fund a wide variety of projects like drilling water wells
or funding small business startup loans.
* New in 2001, members in poor areas can get low-rate college loans;
10,000 loans have been made to date.
GRAB BAG
* Utah is first in: charitable giving, scientists, household computers,
children with two parents, and birth rate.
* Noted LDS included five senators, the Osmonds, Gladys Knight, Steve
Young, and the inventor of TV.
* LDS played a key role in the 2002 Winter Olympics; the chair is now
the governor of Massachusetts .
* Hawaii 's #1 tourist site is the LDS Polynesian Cultural Center ( Tonga
and the Samoas are one-third LDS).
* LDS have sponsored Boy Scout troops since 1913; 23 percent of all
Scout troops are LDS.
* The BYU Women's Cross Country were national champions or in second
place each of the last seven years.

It would be rather
difficult for Romney to whine about religious freedom: after all he said that there's no room for muslims in his administration.

Man is an opportunistic hypocrite, but then he is a republican so that's given.

What About Harry Reid?
Why is Mitt Romney’s Mormonism controversial?

A Mormon (the despicable Harry Reid) is majority leader of the Senate. A Mormon (the neo-liberal Mike Leavitt) is in the line of succession to the Presidency of the United States.

Mormons are serving all over the United States in high offices and have been for many decades. Can anyone produce even one minor incident where a Mormon politician did anything that could be construed as being a direct result of her or his Mormonism?

I’ll answer that one: no.

Most Mormons I know cannot stand the thought that Harry Reid is a member of our church nor are we enthusiastic about the far-too-liberal Mitt Romney.

Anyone who thinks Mitt Romney's religious affiliation will have anything to do with how he might act as president has never looked at his very-less-than-conservative record as Governor of Massachusetts.

Mitt Romney is and always has governed orthogonal to anything that one could call the Mormon Church's "party line" (though there is no such a thing – but some members sure wish there was).

And yes Mr. Limbaugh, people who really find out what Mormonism is all about will find that we are indeed not Christians as defined by mainstream Christianity.

ONLY we are Christians. But we embrace all of you who think you are Christians and applaud your partial acceptance of the Truth.

I wonder how many readers would be surprised to know that we Mormons find it amusing that all of you partial Christians do not think we are Christian.

We do not care about your opinion of us because we know that one day when you decide that you want to practice full Christianity you will want to join us. We look forward to that day.

Until then, please stress down. We don’t want to enslave your daughters in our polygamous harems – yet. (For all you hyperactive anti-Mormon crusaders: that's a joke because Mormons have no such thing as polygamous harems.)

Big G and Clay
"Like begets like: Yes: but your conclusion, therefore we are all gods is a fallacy according to Christianity.
The biggest mistake most make, not just Mormons, is that we are all children of God; John says in Chapter 1 that Jesus (The Word) has given us the power to become sons of God.
Only covenant people could be sons. First the Jews in the Abrahamic covenant and then those who believe in the Messiah, Jesus.

Clay: I think your article was very thoughtful. If man ascended and evolved to godhood, can't you just hear the hiss of the serpent " you can be gods? Just take a little bite of the forbidden fruit. Mormons are still crunching on the forbidden fruit.

The creator of the Universe describes himself in Isaiah 45.18 . . .I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Jesus says that "no one can come to the Father except through me."
John 6.45 says . . .Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh to me."

One must conclude that Jesus is God and that one can pray to Him. There are none else.

But I know the KJV quotes will not suffice because it does not rank as high as the books of Mormon. The rant usually is, when a Mormon disagrees with it,
"well its had so many translations "lost in translation argument.

The next well worn argument is the persecution

And finally, the burning bosom. I know Mormonism is true because I had a burning in my bosom.

But I challenge any one to read the Bible as a book with the same rules of reading one would apply to any book (though it is not any book). The writer determines the meaning, the reader discovers the meaning, or tips his hat to it. No reader can ever stamp his meaning into the text.
The writer also determines whether or not the text is literal or metaphorical.


John Lemski writes
"If what you are saying is such, that there was an improper bias towards the Mormon Church by the government of the United States and there is evidence to support, that claim, just simply petition/sue the government to strike those documents from the historical record. It should not be a problem, considering the PC of the day and the will of congress to appease everyone."

Nice try, John. Are you an attorney? Can you describe the process that might be required to strike documents from the historical record? What would be served by such an activity? How difficult and how costly would such an endeavor be?

There are historical documents that would make you believe that Abraham Lincoln was one of the most evil men ever born. There are historical documents that portray himi as one of the greatest men ever born. For those, such as I, who consider Lincoln to have been one of the greatest if not the greatest U.S. President, what do you think it would take to have all the negative stuff about him expunged? Should I waste my resources on such an effort? No I shouldn't, nor should the LDS Church.

I'm pretty sure that professional historians, even those who are devout Mormons, would strenuously object to such an effort. The documents, even if they are inaccurate, still serve an historical purpose.

Now, if you have specific questions, as I posted before I will personally do my best to answer them. I will access this article just one more time. That will be this evening after work.


Meggy writes
"Clay: I think your article was very thoughtful. If man ascended and evolved to godhood, can't you just hear the hiss of the serpent " you can be gods? Just take a little bite of the forbidden fruit. Mormons are still crunching on the forbidden fruit."

On the other hand can't you just hear the serpent say, "you can't reach the exaltation of Godhood, it's a lie. You can't be like your Father. Your Father doesn't want you to be like Him. It's all a lie."

Paul you forgot one. The beloved baseball star of yesteryear, Dale Murphy, is also a Mormon. He has served as a Bishop and even serve a three year mission as a Mission President.

talent scout, frankly what you think you know about the LDS Church is a collection of lies and half-truths.



The Spirit of Faction


LDS church is Apolitical - ie neutral

the church principles and values do NOT fit neatly into any political party

we seek spiritual redemption not political redemption (as the Jews sought during NT times)

see
http://poynter.indiana.edu/publications/m-gedicks.pdf

No Man's Land - place of LDS in the culture war


the Founders and the prophets are against political parties - factions and contention (eg George Washington Farewell Address; James Madison in Federalist 10)


party zealots are vandals of truth
July 9 1813, John Adams wrote one of several notes on this subject.

Said he: "The same political parties which now agitate us have existed through all time. Precisely. And this is precisely the complaint in the preface to the first volume of my defence. While all other Sciences have advanced, that of Government is at a stand; little better understood; little better practiced now than 3 or 4 thousand years ago. What is the reason? I say parties and factions will not suffer, or permit improvements to be made. As soon as one man hints at an improvement his rival opposes it. No sooner has one party discovered or invented an amelioration of the condition of man or the order of society, than the opposite party belies it, misconstrues it, misrepresents it, ridicules it, insults it, and persecutes it. Records are destroyed. Histories are annihilated or interpolated or prohibited sometimes by democratic assemblies and sometimes by mobs.


party zealots are vandals of truth - 2

"Aristotle wrote the history and description of eighteen hundred republics, which existed before his time. Cicero wrote two volumes of discourses on government, which, perhaps were worth all the rest of his works. The works of Livy and Tacitus etc that are lost, would be more interesting than all that remain. Fifty Gospels have been destroyed and where are St. Lukes World of Books that had been written? If you ask my opinion, who has committed all the havoc? I will answer you candidly; ecclesiastical and imperial despotism has done it, to conceal their frauds.


"Why are the histories of all nations, more ancient than the Christian Era, lost. Who destroyed the Alexandrian Library? I believe that Christian Priests, Jewish Rabbies, Grecian Sages and Roman Emperors has as great a hand in it as Turks and Mahomitans.


"Democrats, Rebels, and Jacobins, when they possessed a momentary Power, have shewn a disposition, both to destroy and to forge records as vandalical, as priests and despots. Such has been and such is the world we live in."

Ideal President
this is the presidential campaign of the minorities: a woman, a black and a Mormon. Ah what the heck, why not vote all the minorities rolled into one. Gladys Knight for President!

casting pearl before swine
I refuse to debate religion (ie discuss dotrine in an adversarial manner - spirit of contention) with skeptics, critics, cynics etc because that is forbidden by the counsel - do not caste pearl before swine;

there is a time for apologetics - but it should be defensive - causing people to examine their info, their logic etc - not sharing precious sacred truths which people trample upon and spit upon

DC 63:64
Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation, and ye receive the Spirit through prayer; wherefore, without this there remaineth condemnation.


DC 63:64 that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care

“Some gospel subjects are sacred and should be spoken of not only with care but under proper conditions, in proper places, and, in some cases, by proper priesthood authorities. Regarding some gospel subjects, the Lord has revealed relatively little or has not answered certain related questions. Those with sincere questions the Lord has not yet chosen to answer need to exercise faith, knowing that at an appropriate time answers will be given. Until then, we need to broaden our gospel understanding through faith, study, and obedience.

“Alma the Younger taught: ‘It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him’ (Alma 12:9). (Wayne Lynn, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, June 1997, 60)


the anti-LDS attackers usually touch on subjects too sacred for debate

let us refuse to take the bait...

Romney's speech awesome
I think Limbaugh was wrong. His speech was awesome and although Mormonism is weird, Romney came across as intelligent and reasonable and he didn't speak of weird doctrines but rather America's great heritage. He has my vote, and I think he can beat Obama, that is the point!
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