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Friday, October 12, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Liberty or Security -- a False Choice
by David Limbaugh
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


I doubt it's the Democrats' concern for freedom and civil liberties that drives their opposition to extending the Protect America Act. Rather, it's their failure to take the threat posed by global jihadists seriously enough.

Congress passed the Protect America Act in August, over much Democratic opposition, to authorize continued wiretapping under the NSA terrorist surveillance program. But the law is set to expire in January unless Congress votes to extend it.

Congressional Democrats are now balking at the proposed extension and are proposing revisions that the administration believes would impose unnecessary limitations on our terrorist monitoring and severely compromise our national security.

Democrats want the law revised to require the government to obtain warrants before eavesdropping on calls into this country from suspected terrorists overseas. Democrats have repeatedly mischaracterized the monitoring of these communications as "domestic spying," though the administration says that with such calls, it is targeting the overseas terrorists, not Americans. The administration insists Americans are never targeted without warrants and that it has already obtained some 100 warrants this year where Americans were targeted.

New Mexico Rep. Heather Wilson said, "If I'm targeting you, I don't know who you're going to call next." Wilson argues that under the Democratic proposal, the government would need a warrant for every call because there's always a chance that the international caller could contact someone inside the United States. For the first time in our history, we'd have to get warrants to eavesdrop on terrorist calls or Internet transmissions coming from outside the United States into this country.

In this debate, Democrats would have us believe they are solely motivated by their concerns that the administration has run roughshod over Americans' constitutional rights. But despite seven years of Democratic squawking about President Bush's alleged executive power grabs, there is little, if any, credible evidence of civil-liberties abuses, domestic spying on citizens or harassment of political enemies by the administration.

It's true that the administration doesn't want to extend the full range of American constitutional civil rights to enemy combatant detainees and is in favor of tougher interrogation techniques against them to protect American lives and secure our homeland. But the last time I checked, the Constitution wasn't ratified to protect our foreign enemies or to make their job of slaughtering us easier.

If the Democrats were truly motivated to preserve our freedoms, they wouldn't be threatening the revival of the Fairness Doctrine to harness the power of government to undermine conservative talk radio in complete derogation of free political speech -- the most protected category of speech under the Constitution. They wouldn't be salivating over the prospect of instituting nationalized health care under cover of "helping the children." They wouldn't be sending their congressional representatives to Syria in usurpation and contravention of the president's constitutional authority over foreign affairs. They wouldn't regard the IRS as an agency designed to punish achievement and equalize income distribution.

If Democrats were truly concerned about the civil liberties of United States citizens and preventing certain branches of government from abusing its powers, they would rein in the hyper-partisan, megalomaniacal Henry Waxman, chairman of the House Oversight Committee.

Waxman has used his seemingly unbridled investigative powers and taxpayer funds literally to harass the administration with hundreds of investigations and target other political enemies.

The American Spectator reports that Waxman has asked his investigative staff to begin monitoring and compiling reports on the radio talk shows of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin and other conservative hosts.

Though Waxman denies the report, The American Spectator is standing by its story, "which was conveyed to us by an Oversight Committee staffer." The American Spectator Editor in Chief R. Emmett Tyrell Jr. affirmed the report to Rush Limbaugh's guest host Jason Lewis on the program Thursday. Yet, we hear nothing but silence from the Democrats' civil-libertarian wing.

The Democrats' casual indifference to real civil-rights encroachments against their political enemies makes suspect their professed concern over civil liberties theoretically placed in jeopardy by the administration's range of counterterrorism policies that have truly saved American lives.

Since there hasn't been any real diminution in Americans' civil liberties by the administration, something else must be at work in the Democrats' perpetual obstruction of the administration's efforts to fight this war. It is giving them the benefit of the doubt to assume they don't assess the global jihadist threat to be as severe as the administration and other Republicans do. Alternative assumptions -- placing their partisan interests above the national interest -- are even less charitable.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Worth it?
"But despite seven years of Democratic squawking about President Bush's alleged executive power grabs, there is little, if any, credible evidence of civil-liberties abuses, domestic spying on citizens or harassment of political enemies by the administration."

Hmm, possibly, although the fact that Mr. Limbaugh says it certainly isn't enough to me to believe it. I would add, however, that there is also little, if any, credible evidence of warrantless wiretapping or the Protect America Act actually achieving anything against terrorism. Can anyone show me one arrest made, or one plot stopped, or one life saved, by a warrantless wiretap, that couldn't have been done by our usual methods?

You Lawyers
Can sure screw the country up, sorry David but its just the facts.

---------------
quote:
Congress passed the Protect America Act in August, over much Democratic opposition, to authorize continued wiretapping under the NSA terrorist surveillance program. But the law is set to expire in January unless Congress votes to extend it.
-------------------

How did we ever manage to "Protect America" before we needed some **** Act from Congress anyway?

Success of protcet America Act PT 1
For Frey
From a 2003 article
"Ashcroft pointed to the triumphs the government has made under the act since Sept. 11, 2001. Among them, federal prosecutors have brought more than 250 criminal charges under the law, resulting in more than 130 convictions or guilty pleas."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/july-dec03/patri otact_9-17_printout.html

From a 2005 article
FBI Director Robert Mueller has repeatedly testified that the act's provisions have proven extraordinarily beneficial in the war on terrorism and have been directly responsible for many counterterrorism successes. Clinton Administration Attorney General Janet Reno agrees, stating publicly that "everything that's been done in the Patriot Act has been helpful

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-4_11_05_JK. html

Another testimony worth reading is http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/subs/testimony/060805-james_ comey_statement.pdf

Success of protcet America Act PT 2
This from CNSnews.
The burden of proof is on critics, Carafano said, since "there has not been one significant proven abuse of the Patriot Act" five years after it was initially authorized. Moreover, he claimed, government officials using the tools made available through the Patriot Act have successfully disrupted at least 15 different terrorist conspiracies inside the U.S.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/ 200609/NAT20060911b.html
When civil rights are violated we need to stand up and defend them. The civil rights of our Citizens can not be stopped because we are at war with terrorists because then they win. However, the tools authorized by the Patriot Act and Protect America Act are not violating our civil liberties.

Now I believe I answered Frey, so can someone please show me one thing that an American Citizen can’t do now that they could legally do before these acts were passed? One way in which you are personally affected by them? One reason you should fear them legally? I look forward to the replies of the opposition.

With documentation and respect for all points of view and of course no name calling please.

Say WHAT?
"...free political speech -- the most protected category of speech under the Constitution."

Where in Amendment One -- or elsewhere in the Constitution, for that matter -- does the word "political" appear?

**ALL** speech is protected from government coercion and constraint under Amendment One. Anyone who holds otherwise, or who claims that there's an invisible "sliding scale" of speech rights that depends on the subject matter, is reading his own preferences into the Constitution -- imputing legal privileges to the State that the Founders did not see fit to give it.

And no, it doesn't matter a fig that the Supreme Court disagrees. The words are there to be read by anyone with eyes and a brain. Too few persons have done so.


Hillary with unlimited spying power...
I'm always amused when David gets into Rush's Oxycontin - he spews funny nonsense! Remember how crazy everyone got by the idea of Hillary messing with all those FBI files?

Now, if she should win the White House, you want to give her unlimited access to spy on Americans...

well, if that's what you want....

If you have nothing to hide....
If you have nothing to hide what is the big deal? As I tell the airport security folks (and I travel a lot back and forth overseas to the Middle East) search anything I have as I have nothing to hide. I feel the same way about wire taps. The government can tap my phone anytime and I am sure they would be bored silly with my conversations. Look at my bank records, I do not care. Maybe some will think I am nuts but I am boring with nothing to hide so all this privacy rights stuff bores me especially when I do not believe a "right to privacy" is guaranteed in the constitution.

Another opportunity
for Bush to tell the American people why these protections are necessary. One nuclear suitcase bomb can ruin a New Yorkers' whole day. His lack of leadership and communication skills is pathetic!
And, Military Lovin' Dog, Hillary will not flinch to spy on ... conservatives, simply because she can.

speakng of liberty...
New revelations in attack on American spy ship
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-liberty1002,0,3 053738.story

Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn't tell full story of deadly '67 incident

Lockwood was aboard the USS Liberty, a super-secret spy ship on station in the eastern Mediterranean, when four Israeli fighter jets flew out of the afternoon sun to strafe and bomb the virtually defenseless vessel on June 8, 1967, the fourth day of what would become known as the Six-Day War.

For Lockwood and many other survivors, the anger is mixed with incredulity: that Israel would attack an important ally, then attribute the attack to a case of mistaken identity by Israeli pilots who had confused the U.S. Navy's most distinctive ship with an Egyptian horse-cavalry transport that was half its size and had a dissimilar profile. And they're also incredulous that, for years, their own government would reject their calls for a thorough investigation.

"They tried to lie their way out of it!" Lockwood shouts. "I don't believe that for a minute! You just don't shoot at a ship at sea without identifying it, making sure of your target!"

Their anger has been stoked by the declassification of government documents and the recollections of former military personnel, including some quoted in this article for the first time, which strengthen doubts about the U.S. National Security Agency's position that it never intercepted the communications of the attacking Israeli pilots -- communications, according to those who remember seeing them, that showed the Israelis knew they were attacking an American naval vessel.

The documents also suggest that the U.S. government, anxious to spare Israel's reputation and preserve its alliance with the U.S., closed the case with what even some of its participants now say was a hasty and seriously flawed investigation.


Frey
"Can anyone show me one arrest made, or one plot stopped, or one life saved, by a warrantless wiretap, that couldn't have been done by our usual methods?"

The absence of any more 9/11s here pretty much says it all.

Of course, we could remove the warrentless wiretapping and the Protect America Act and have a few more 9/11s here until you finally got comfortable with the usefulness of those anti-terrorist measures.....

Uh Oh!
If the Dems actually curtail certain investigative tools, and then we have an incident [dead people]...All the BS on 'rights' won't put the Humpty Dumpty back together.

It is not a matter whether I can prove that the current procedures work, since then a lot of classified information has to be revealed on 'methods', but whether Dems can defend cutting out the 'methods' and tell us we are safer without them.

I want hear about being safer, don't you, or is all this demagoguery about 'rights'.

Remember we have declared our "unalienable Rights"....Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." We have also stated that we have established a Constitution to "...insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty..."

Thoughtful people may differ on process, but along with that is the responsibility to be right. I am personally uncomfortable with trying to live in this very dangerous world with earplugs and blinders on those responsible for my safety. "Rights"...I have a right to live!

Col. DOUG

Liberals Do What They Accuse
I have said it before and I will say it again. Liberals do what they accuse conservatives of doing. They look at it as a way to immunize themselves.

If they are accusing conservatives of play "the politics of personal destruction", you can be sure they are engaging in it. If they are calling people unpatriotic (as Harry Reid called Rush Limbaugh), you can be sure they are trying to immunize themselves from being called unpatriotic. In this case, if they are accusing conservatives of "spying", then look out...

Francis W. Porretto
If you knew your history, you would understand that the speeches, press, freedom to assemble are all directed at political protections. The amendments to the constitution are a direct restriction to prevent those with governmental power of repeating the same actions committed by the British governors in the colonies. Why does the third amendment bar the quartering of troops in private homes? It is because the British did this to the colonist. Your claim that all speech and writing is protected is also proven false by slander and libel laws.

for talent scout
talent scout writes: "How did we ever manage to "Protect America" before we needed some **** Act from Congress anyway?"

We didn't protect America.

Ask the family of Leon Klinghoffer, who was murdered by Palestinian terrorists in 1985.

Americans have been victims of Islamist terrorism since at least the triple hijacking of 1970.

We didn't prevent the killing of 241 Marines in Lebanon in 1982, the first WTC bombing in 1993, the Khobar Towers bombing, the U.S.S. Cole bombing, etc. The loss of American life continued for decades.

But with 9-11, it's now reached the point that we can't tolerate that low-level war against us anymore.

Tinsldr2
Thanks for the articles, but I wasn't talking about the Patriot Act (and neither was David Limbaugh). The Terrorist Surveillance Act and Protect America are separate items from the PA. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

Maybe warrantless wiretapping is vital, but where's the evidence? All the administration ever says is, "We need this. Just trust us on that." Right.

Liberals Hate America
If there HAD BEEN 1 INSTANCE of The Government overstepping their bounds on eavesdropping. The New York Slimes, Washington Compost, etc would have put out A SPECIAL EDITION EVERDAY FOR A MONTH!
This is just Liberals being what they are, Lying, Cheating, Cowards!

Georgetwin
Rush is taking the original letter that Reid wrote to the CEO of Clear Channel and is auctioning it off on E-Bay. The money will go to the Marine Corps (or some charity associated with the Marine Corps. I'm going to check out e-bay and see if anyone has made a bid yet. I believe it went on ebay yesterday.

sheepdog
That will provide some amusing irony.

This whole Reid fabrication is starting to backfire.

sheepdog
I KNOW! I heard that at lunch! HE HAS PICKED A FIGHT WITH THE US SENATE! EXCELLENT! NEW BLOG POST AVAILABLE!

re stevel
The laws didnt protect Rachel either,
or the crew of the US LIBERTY,
so what should we do with their murderers?

cnn.com 3/25/2003:Israeli bulldozer kills American protester
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/index .html
\
Friends and family remember the 'loving spirit' of Rachel Corrie.

An Israeli bulldozer killed an American woman Sunday who had been peacefully protesting its use to destroy Palestinian houses in Rafah.

The woman, Rachel Corrie, 23, of Olympia, Washington, was taken to a hospital, where she died of her injuries. She was a senior at Evergreen State College in Olympia but was not enrolled this quarter, the school said.

Since January, she had been working with the Palestinian-led International Solidarity Movement to protest Israeli actions in the occupied territories, said Huwaida Arraf, co-founder of the group.

"This morning, when she was killed, she was attempting to prevent the Israeli military from destroying Palestinian civilian homes," Arraf said.

"She was raising her hands and yelling at the bulldozer driver to stop," Arraf said. "The bulldozer driver paid no attention. ... He buried Rachel with dirt, which ended up, obviously, knocking her down. Then he ran over her, and then reversed and ran over her again."

Georgetwin & Sheepdog...
The letter is up to $5,600.

He also challenged all 41 signers of the letter to individually match whatever it sells for.

ha ha

Limbaugh-Lite is Funny!
Limbaugh says if Democrats were concerned about civil liberties and preventing certain branches of government from abusing its powers, they would rein in the “hyper-partisan, megalomaniacal” Henry Waxman, chairman of the HOC.

Right, unlike the hyper-nonpartisan Blunt, Boehner and the rest of the extreme right-wing-nuts. I think it’s safe to say Bush has earned every bit of our distrust. Bush and his brain’s (Rove) goal have been for the right wing extremist to take over and politicize the country in a way never seen before (DeLay, Abramoff, etc…). This abuse is simply being countered.

Also he writes that the administration doesn't want to extend the full range of American constitutional civil rights to enemy combatant detainees and is in favor of tougher interrogation techniques against them to protect American lives and secure our homeland. “…last time I checked, the Constitution wasn't ratified to protect our foreign enemies or to make their job of slaughtering us easier.”

Ironically, by torturing our prisoners the extreme right is making it easier for our enemies to kill us; it’s a difficult concept but just ask Sen. McCain about it. If we are going to be the moral and just side in this war, we had better be moral and just. Again, just ask the only non-chicken-hawk republican who actually fought in a war and was himself a tortured prisoner of war. He said that torture undermines our moral authority and it doesn’t work.

Lastly and most comical Limbaugh says:
“Waxman has used his seemingly unbridled investigative powers and taxpayer funds literally to harass the administration with hundreds of investigations and target other political enemies.”

Unlike what happened to Clinton for 8 years. $40 mil for Whitewater and the Lewinsky investigation-- I know it’s unsettling to a republican when a man gets a bj from someone who isn’t his wife, unless it's from an anonymous man in an airport restroom stall.

Patriot Act is cowardly
"If you have nothing to hide what is the big deal? I do not believe a "right to privacy" is guaranteed in the constitution."

IV Amendment - The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The Constitution requires the Federal government to produce a warrant.

IV Amendment - In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

The Constitution requires the Federal Government to provide its citizens a speedy trial. Declaring and American citizen an enemy combatant doesn't chang that.

"WASHINGTON — The FBI says it sometimes gets the wrong number when it intercepts conversations in terrorism investigations, an admission critics say underscores a need to revise wiretap provisions in the Patriot Act. The FBI would not say how often these mistakes happen. And, though any incriminating evidence mistakenly collected is not legally admissible in a criminal case, there is no way of knowing whether it is used to begin an investigation."

The Patriot Act is un-American. If this is what it takes to stop terror, they've won.

How to keep America safe!
We should repeal the Patriot Act with great fanfare and make it widely known that the Democrats are responsible for weakening America's protection from terrorists and they will be blamed for any terrorist attack that occurs as a result.

Neither al Qaeda nor Hamas would want to do anything that would embarrass their Democrat Allies.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57970

Apples and oranges
To what I said SteveL

-------------------


SteveL writes: 12:10 PM
for talent scout
talent scout writes: "How did we ever manage to "Protect America" before we needed some **** Act from Congress anyway?"

We didn't protect America.
----------
ts:
Huh?
You may have a point to make that is a good one SteveL.
But so far you are just confused in what I was saying.

-----------------
SteveL writes:

Ask the family of Leon Klinghoffer, who was murdered by Palestinian terrorists in 1985.
--------
ts:
What shall I ask them?
If Congress had of passed a law do they think they would have been safe?
Even if they had passed a law that said terrorists shall not kill Leon?
-----------------
SteveL writes:
Americans have been victims of Islamist terrorism since at least the triple hijacking of 1970.
------ts:
Actually it was in the 1960's .
The PLO was born in 1967 I think it was
-----------
SteveL writes:
We didn't prevent the killing of 241 Marines in Lebanon in 1982, the first WTC bombing in 1993, the Khobar Towers bombing, the U.S.S. Cole bombing, etc. The loss of American life continued for decades.
-------
ts
No we didn't, but we did have law against it already didn't we.

-------------
SteveL writes:
But with 9-11, it's now reached the point that we can't tolerate that low-level war against us anymore.
--------
ts
I am in for that, lets actually do it to win though

Wire Tapping
Frey, it is a fair question you ask but unless I am wrong (its been known to happen from time to time) “Protect America Act” was only voted on and signed in Aug 07. Two months ago. It is due to expire in Feb 08. It is an update to FISA laws passed in 1978 and the original rules were made for dealing with much older technology.
While this is a point that reasonable people can disagree on I believe that at the time that it comes up again for a vote, in classified closed door briefing the agencies using the FISA act should brief the elected representatives on the value of the act (number of cases caught, investigations open, mistakes made etc.). The stats I gave earlier were for the Patriot act because we have had that tool because that has been in force for a more reportable period of time.

I do believe we have a right to Privacy and any infringements of that right should not be tolerated. I really don’t see the harm in listening to calls that originate overseas from people identified as terrorist suspects or calls that are made to those overseas suspects. Same with email to and from known suspects, and stopping to get a warrant first with the availability of disposable phones and email addresses just doesn’t make sense. Now my wife calls Germany a couple of times a week. None of the people she calls are terror suspects so the government has no right to listen to her calls. The key difference is we are screening for known telephone numbers. And if they make a mistake and do listen to her talking to her mom about what her Uncles doctor said or her cousins having an affair so what?

Even when Sen Clinton becomes president ( gawd I hope not) I am not worried about abuse of this act. And when you can show the abuses then I will put the pressure on my elected leaders to stop the act. In the mean time I feel safer knowing that my Government is at least attempting to find the bad guys before it is too late.

Remember the Cole?
Sonofsam,

Why are you bringing up actions from 1967? That’s 40 years ago? The British attacked the US and burnt many parts of Washington D.C. Are you mad at the British? The Virginians invaded Pennsylvania and attacked the shoe making factory at Gettysburg (well ok we invaded Virginia first but I am sure you don’t let facts stop you) should we punish the southern states for that? The Spanish sank the Maine right? Should we have be mad at Spain? (ok again the Spanish didn’t really sink the USS Maine but it was a good war Cry) What about Pearl Harbor?
For the last 30 years the Moslem fanatic terrorists have been directly attacking US and US citizens. Remember the USS Cole? Khobar towers? Marine Barracks in Lebanon? I understand why you are posting what you do, but what does that have to do with the discussion of Liberty and Security that rational people like Frey, talent scout et al, are having?

re tins...
"Why are you bringing up actions from 1967?"

Rachel was murdered (in cold blood) in 2003.
Wake Up!

I just have to know
I keep hearing "conservatives" (lol, yea right) complain that the "Fairness Doctrine" will undermine the "extreme right wing" talk radio fad that is underway. My question is this: Wouldn't it also balance the so-called "liberal MSM"? I mean all of the "I can't think for myself. I need Rush, Anne, Savage, etc. to tell me what to think" lemmings continually cry about how unbalanced the "MSM" is.

I don't think the Fairness Doctrine, or any law like it, should exist. Laws such as this are clearly in violation of the first amendment. But that's not what you complain about. Are you afraid such a law would expose your rants about the "MSM" being a tool for the "extreme left" to be untrue?
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