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Wednesday, September 05, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Hypocrisy as an "Impeachable" Offense
by David Limbaugh
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Why did Sen. Larry Craig resign? Was it that he was exposed as a homosexual? That he is also a Republican? That he lied? That he committed a misdemeanor? That he is a hypocrite? Or that Republicans had to offer him in sacrifice lest they too -- horrors -- be accused of party-wide hypocrisy?

Obviously, he resigned under pressure from the left -- which ought to be defending him -- and his GOP colleagues.

The larger question, then, is why both the left and right came down so hard on Craig. MSNBC's Chris Matthews inveighed against Craig because Republicans have railed against "San Francisco Democrats" and "hypocrisy does loom here."

Matthews' "Hardball" guest, Salon's Joan Walsh, agreed. "Hypocrisy absolutely looms, Chris. The Republican Party has made itself the party of the bedroom police. They've gone after gays, they've snickered about San Francisco Democrats, and they went after Bill Clinton in a sexual kind of witch hunt, and so they've left themselves really open to double standards."

Not so fast, Chris and Joan. While many "values voters" admittedly disapprove of homosexual behavior, they are not anti-gay in the sense liberals are suggesting.

I don't know of any Republicans or conservatives who engage in or advocate bedroom policing -- a smear that is too-often repeated and accepted unquestioningly.

It's simply not true that opposition to abortion, the elevation of "sexual preference" to the status of race under our civil-rights laws, the societal sanctioning of homosexual marriage, or allowing homosexuals to serve as Boy Scout troop leaders constitutes bedroom policing.

Even the charge Craig is suspected of involved public, not private, activity. No one is advocating that sodomy laws be resurrected and enforced or that government video cams be installed in our homes.

And, truth be told, conservative denunciation of "San Francisco Democrats" is due to their extreme liberalism and in-your-face demand that society normalize, even celebrate, homosexual behavior, not to some vendetta or crusade against homosexuals. In addition, the charge that Republicans conducted a sexual witch hunt against Bill Clinton does not become more credible with endless repetition. He was pursued for perjury and obstruction of justice.

So how can Republicans fairly be accused of hypocrisy here? They cashiered Craig immediately, which is light years faster than Dems police their own, i.e., rare to never. Surely liberals can't say with straight faces that either Craig's suspected behavior or the Republicans' swift response to it contribute to the "culture of corruption."

But isn't Craig a hypocrite? I'm not so sure. In the first place, Craig has denied he's homosexual. Aren't Democrats champions of the presumption of innocence? I realize this presumption generally only applies to criminal accusations, but liberals are always demanding that we also apply it to our discourse so that we can't even opine about one's culpability in a matter without violating the sacred presumption of innocence.

Remember how many of them objected to pundits' opinions -- pre-verdict -- that O.J. was guilty? So unless Democrats want to concede their own hypocrisy, they must assume Craig is not a homosexual since he denied it.

Besides, isn't it highly presumptuous to conclude that it's impossible for a homosexual to disapprove of homosexual marriage or other special rights for homosexuals?

Democrats might object that the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Craig because he already pled guilty. But that's not a satisfactory answer since his plea didn't necessarily imply an admission that he solicited or engaged in homosexual activity.

But wait. Joan Walsh made it clear the presumption doesn't apply to Republicans. When Matthews, to his credit, challenged her for condemning Craig over the "longstanding rumors" of his homosexuality, she protested that the Idaho newspapers have documented Craig's pattern of behavior -- as if newspaper accounts override the presumption and as if such patterns (see: Bill Clinton) ordinarily matter to liberals like Walsh.

But more troubling than any of the above are liberals' efforts to make GOP hypocrisy an "impeachable" offense. Even worse is their exploitation of the Craig episode to undermine society's preservation of moral standards under the staggeringly ludicrous reasoning that sinners (read: everyone) are disqualified from condemning sin. This is nothing short of a prescription for wholesale anarchy and the disintegration of our moral fabric: Judges couldn't be judges, legislators couldn't legislate, prosecutors couldn't prosecute, pastors, priests, and rabbis couldn't serve. Worst of all: Columnists couldn't sermonize.

As for me, I won't lose any sleep over Craig's departure because I happen to believe his guilty plea points to his culpability on the underlying charge to which he did not plead -- and I'm not bound by liberals' selective demands that we expand the presumption of innocence to preclude the airing of our opinions of guilt.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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The Real Hypocrisy is:
The real hypocrisy on the Sen. Larry Craig issue is demonstrated by those that idolize someone like Barney Frank but then demonize Larry Craig.

The ACLU would have come to Frank's defense by now if it were Barney Frank instead of Larry Craig that had been caught in this bathroom sting operation.

Not defending Craig's actions if indeed he is guilty of soliciting homosexual sex in a men's bathroom, just simply pointing out where the real hypocrisy is on this issue.

Don't agree, David
Conservatives and Republicans espouse morality and ethics -- ostensibly -- and decry them loudly when the other party shows it has none. Clinton was constantly criticized for his lack of character, as was Barney Franks, Kennedy and others.

I agree with those criticisms, but I also agree they apply to us on the Right, and even more so, because WE'RE the ones who claim to abide by those standards. If you're gonna talk the talk, you'd better be able to walk the walk.

And politicians must be held to an even higher standard. They spend their lives passing laws telling all the rest of us how we have to live our lives. They'd damn well better be ready to set a higher example, or suffer the consequences.

What a timely article!
But I wonder how little brother Dave feels now that Craig is reconsidering his decision to resign? Does the long-held GOP belief that their miscreants always resign (rather than attempt to hold their seats ) now become just more hot air?

wannabe Rush
Why should the left defend a hypocrite, David? Craig, like the rest of the moralist GOPers, sought anti-gay legislation - his "offense" was his brutal, breathtaking hypocrisy. He DESERVES to be publicly pummeled for his mean-spirited legislation, but if it is any solace, some of us on the left do feel pity for his family.

If Repubs don't advocate policing bedrooms than what, exactly is their beef about homosexuals? It all boils down to sexual preferences and what goes on in their personal lives, doesn't it? Admit it.

And Ken Starr HOUNDED Clinton for YEARS trying to find an allegation that would stick. They just "happened" on Monica Lewinsky after spending millions of taxpayer's money in a relentless witch hunt. History will not be rewritten by rightwingers on that particularly low point in GOP dirty deals, but Limbaugh is what he is: the brother of the biggest GOP skunk in the business, which makes him the skunk-wannabe.

BrianR- Multi-Faceted Issue
You make some good points, so does David, and so do I. No doubt, if Clinton were a Republican he never would have survived as President, that's a fact.

One of my points is that Craig's sins pale in comparison to Clinton's and Frank's and the hypocrisy of the left needs to be pointed out just as much as we need to censor one of our own.

The difficult question is, when it comes to fairness should their really be a double standard? Should Republicans get shot down with both barrels when they fail? I'm not sure I have the answer to this, but I do know a double standard when I see one, and I know real hypocrisy when I see it.


Really?
Preston writes:

"One of my points is that Craig's sins pale in comparison to Clinton's"

Really? Cheating on your wife, in public, in a bathroom, at an airport, in the middle of the day, with another man, "pales in comparison" with Clinton?

"I do know a double standard when I see one"

Sorry, you don't.

Man, this dumb article is going to get a lot of comments. Gotta love old "coattails."

And The Real Hypocrites Are..
The real hypocrites are the lefties that think homosexual behavior is OK if done by one of their own, but that it is an impeachable offense if done by a conservative.

This goes double for the ACLU lefties who would be having a field day if it were Barney Frank that had been caught up in a bathroom sting!

Click my name
to read my just-posted blog essay on this topic entitled "GOP = Gaggle Of Prostitutes?".


for Preston
Preston writes: "The difficult question is, when it comes to fairness should their really be a double standard? Should Republicans get shot down with both barrels when they fail?"

No, I don't.
But what folks here don't seem to understand is that it wasn't prominent Democrats like Pelosi and Reid, but social conservative activists like Hugh Hewitt and Gary Bauer who were doing the shooting. Within 24 hours after the news about Craig's bathroom arrest broke, Hewitt and Bauer pounced right on it and called for his resignation. They didn't wait a moment to hear his side of the story.

Don't you get it? Your problem is not with Democrat politicians pouncing on such sex scandals. Your problem is with your own social conservative base which evidently has a zero tolerance policy for such indiscretions and freaks out at the news of any. If you're caught just once in a homosexual encounter, even a casual one, you are instantly persona non grata with them, they wash their hands of you and start calling for you to be punished.

So I suggest you argue with your own conservative base. Ask them why Christians are so intolerant that they don't even give an accused sinner a chance to defend himself before they damn him in public.

Don't Christian conservatives believe in the presumption of innocence?

for BrianR
BrianR writes: "I agree with those criticisms, but I also agree they apply to us on the Right, and even more so, because WE'RE the ones who claim to abide by those standards."

Which was always absurd on the face of it.

How could Republican politicians claim to be more personally moral than Democrat politicians with a straight face? Is there some evidence that only Republicans are all happily married while Democrats are not? (If so, why have so many prominent Republicans gotten divorced?) Is there some evidence that only Democrats have homosexual urges? Is there some evidence that only Democrats commit sin and Republicans are angelic?

No.
Republicans SHOULD have simply said that they value a higher moral standard, and that they will try to aspire to it. But they should NEVER have claimed that they have actually all attained that moral standard. It's unrealistic, it's arrogant, and it's false.

Your point, SteveL?
That's all well and good, but I stand by what I wrote. Whether making the claim and taking that position is right or wrong is irrelevant. It's simply an observation of how things are.

I invite you to read my blog essay, as I go into more detail than is appropriate for a comment on a column.

Opposition to an idea
is not hatred. I am opposed to homosexuality as a lifestyle choice; I do not hate homosexuals. That said, once the common trigger words (hate, racist, bigot, hypocrite, etc.)used by the Left to obfuscate the real issue are proved inaccurate it will resort to its last defense - denigration of the opponent. So villify me to prove that logic is not a common attribute of the majority of Leftists. Moral relativism - a false logical premise - drives the twin tactic (obfuscation and denigration). What else does one have when the merits of an issue are lost?

In response:
It is easy for the left to attack the right. The right does set a moral high ground for itself, so when "we" on the right fail to meet the high standards we set for ourselves it makes us vulnerable to attack. I like it that way. I find my self being more of a Libertarian, but setting high standards and falling a little short is still better than not having any at all. That seems to be the lefts stance: Lets not set standards for ourselve, this way we can not be held accountable for our actions. If the left doesn't set a standard for themselves then when something goes amuck it is easy to just brush it aside and say "Well we never said that we have a standard of conduct for that. Lets just forgive and forget and learn from this"

Nepotism.
Except for his last name, David has nothing to offer in this or any other drivel he manages to have printed because of his brother's infamy.

Crais is a closeted gay man who got caught. The fact that he has been on the GOP Values Voter bandwagon just sweetens the pot.

Does the word "Schadenfreude" ring a bell with the Moral Majority crowd?

VaCon
Well said. The R's also need to be more aggresive when it comes to getting the word out that they police their own.

If you are going to be a Republican pol, know that there is a double standard, and live up to that burden. Otherwise stay out of the game.

On the other hand, when the Repubs do toss someone out who misbehaves, it's only fair to say, "We do not tolerate this type of behavior in our party. We hold ourselves to a higher standard and are proud to do so."

The Language of Political Warfare
Welcome to the modern world where "Take no prisoners" can be heard after nearly every "no rules, no holds barred" political attack.

The charge of "hypocricy" is often heard these days. Less often heard is the word "pervert." The word may be a bit too harsh for our modern sensibilities but given our popular culture, I doubt it. Perhaps, we should ask the question "Is cruising for anonymous sex in a public restroom perverted?"

We could also address the question "How do we define perversion?"

Hypocrisy =High School
If you have, or have had, teenagers, you will recognize the word *Hypocrite* as No. 1 on the High School Hit Parade. Teenagers who say *Hypocrite* mean *Egad, the world is not Black and White/On and Off/Good and Bad/0 and 1!* I can recall my own shock at my parents mourning JFK when they had hated every bone and sinew in his body while he was alive and actively advocated his removal. To me, the teenager, this was the height of Hypocrisy! In fact, as I matured, it was evidence that life was more complicated than On and Off, Left and Right, Up and Down.

People who fling around the words Hypocrite and Hypocrisy have a simplistic, teenaged view of the world. To them, you are either for them or against them.

This is yet more evidence that the world is beginning more and more retarded; as the machines take over more and more of the work in the world, the people are turning into babies.

hypocrisy
The communist/nazi party (Democrats) will try anything in an effort to destroy the constitutionalist party (Republicans) so as to destroy our constitutional republic and implement socialist fascism.

Van
"Plenty of republican senators supported the idea of arresting and jailing gays for being gay."

You make some wild claims. I don't remember any of this. Could you please document your claims with quotes as to whom, what and when?

Otherwise, your claims are meaningless.

AudiR10
Excellent point!!

VAConservative
You are so right.

The left has no standards. They also have no ideas. They trash everything the right tries to do, yet they never offer any better plans. They don't want war, yet they have no better way of defeating Islamofascism. They don't like guns, but they can't tell you how to protect yourself. They hate capitalism, but every other socio/economic experiment has led to massive nationwide poverty. And on and on, ad nauseum.

They really are pathetic!

All you have to do
is read the many posts on this article, AudieR10 fans, to recognize how right she is. I had to smile as I visualized the gleeful look in the faces of the busy ones this morning who have absolutely nothing better to do than twirl around clapping, laughing, and jumping up and down believing deep in their hearts that what they say means anything.

By the way, can anyone out there enlighten me as to what that guy Jefferson is doing now that he is no longer in Congress?

What's that you say.....?

Euphemism I
Euphemism a word or phrase used in place of a term that might be considered too direct, harsh, unpleasant, or offensive, is the trademark of the homosexual community. For their own selfish reasons they have collectively usurped a term of the English language and purposely misapplied it to suit their own agenda. Following World Was One American doughboys returned to an America ensconced in Prohibition Laws making drinking alcohol and having booze related fun activities illegal. During the early 1920’s – before the Roaring Twenties Era – these many former doughboys immigrated back to France, back to “Gai Paree” where they left many pretty demoiselles behind crying dans les chamber du lit. Known as the “Lost Generation” these young men returned to a Paris known for its gaiety; ergo gay atmosphere, to have sex with the women they knew during the war. Also, never forget the wonderful film “Gay Divorcee” (1934) with Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers which had nothing to do with homosexuality.


Euphemism II
The Idaho senator said “I am not gay!” which is truthful because at that moment he was emotionally miserable so his words in the clear said nothing as to his personal sexual interests. As a Conservative I could not care less how he conducts his personal affairs. If he has led a schizoid lifestyle before his family it is his family’s business. If he has deceived the voters of Idaho then it is their business to reject or retain his services; but, for him to use the gay euphemism to conceal further his emotional secrets leaves this person vacuous with contempt. Stealing language is theft of my “free speech” so that when I want to employ the adjective “Gay” I must search out a euphemistic expression instead as opposed to expressing my thoughts in the simplest and clearest terms. On this point I am determined to fight the Barney Franks and the rest of the Homosexual Mafia who typically use a term synonymous with happy while they politically feign to be miserable and feign to be impoverished when their personal obligations are limited to themselves or a similar small grouping of adults communally amassing fortunes.

Just Go Away - All Of You
Maybe we should add public bathrooms at the airport. You know, Anonymous Sex Bathrooms - Gay Male, Gay Women, Heterosexual (to go along with the plain old I Just Gotta Go When I Get Off The Plane ones). Do you think the pedophiles will complain? Maybe we can put them in the airplanes, too, for the Mile High Club.

C'mon, if this was happening to some other Republican Senator, Craig would be with the rest of them urging him/her to resign...as would I.

Forget hypocrisy, isn't anyone just disgusted anymore?

The man said he was guilty. No can he please just go away and take Freezer Money Man, Hooker Man and Intoxicated Capitol Crasher Man with him before I Did Not Have Sex With That Woman Man returns to DC.

Maybe Michael Vick can run for office. He obviously qualifies.




AudiR
Naturally you conservatives have more advanced, more "adult" way to think about the term hypocrisy. It's very simple really: A Christian conservative is never a hypocrite rehardless of what he does.

now let's see:

Craig attacked committed gay couples and demonnized them while cruising for gay sex in bathrooms when married.
Craig opposed gay adoption but adopted two children himself while cruising fr male to male sex in bathrooms?
Vitter demobnized gays and was strongly nion favor of "family values" i.e. boasting how much better he is than any gay person while bying sexual services for prostitutes.

And calling these liars for their lies is "adolescent" way to think about what's hypocrisy?

Might I call you a hypocrite?


What "Special Rights"
What "special rights" is it that you believe homosexuals are advocating for, Mr. Limbaugh?

GOP
politicians, "friends" of Criag were the ones who want him to resign. Because they want to expirge him in tha same way nazi party would kick out a Jewish member however bigoted. Because Craig shows the vastness of GOP:s anti-gay agenda. Because Craig shows the hypocrisy and emptiness of GOP:s values paltform. Because Craig shows how GOP has caned into the most vicious right wing zealots and nutjobs.

No, Van,
you may not call anyone a hypocrite until you complete your post with the inclusion of the characters that are so well known to have committed errors of morality on your side of the aisle. Failure to do so is, in fact, hypocrisy.

No, Van,
you may not call anyone a hypocrite until you complete your post with the inclusion of the characters that are so well known to have committed errors of morality on your side of the aisle. Failure to do so is, in fact, hypocrisy.

No, Van,
you may not call AudiR, or anyone else a hypocrite until you complete you post with the inclusion of the characters from the other side of the aisle who have committed moral indescetion. Failure to do so is, in fact, hyprocrisy.

And Van, having read you latest post, I'm wondering why I'm responding to you at all.

Sorry
about the double post. It really wasn't worth saying twice, but somehow, TH bamboozeled me.

Red Herring
We are missing the bigger issue. Why did the media, conservative and liberal alike, only run this story now. It happened over two months ago. The Idaho paper had completed their expose at least six months ago.

While Craig was plaster all over the news what story came and went? Mr.Hsu campaign funding raising!

Hillary and other Democratic Candidates were again receiving, supposedly unknown to them, campaign contribution from a convicted felon. They were having their pictures taken with him. He was raising funds from others for their campaigns. Of course Hillary and all gave back the money that came directly from Mr. Hsu but not the other money he helped raise.

At a time when a party runs on the culture of corruption in Washington, it is the height of arrogrance and hypocrisy for their party leaders to take from criminals. Ah, but they claim they didn't know, why didn't they know and if not do we want these folks running the White House again?

talisman writes:
And Ken Starr HOUNDED Clinton for YEARS trying to find an allegation that would stick. They just "happened" on Monica Lewinsky after spending millions of taxpayer's money in a relentless witch hunt.

You are the hypocrites! The dems are the party who claims to stand up for women's rights but when your guy get's caught abusing women all the sudden we are told it's all about sex. Clinton was being sued for having dropped his pants in front of Paula Jones and soliciting oral sex not for having oral sex with MS Lewinski. Isn't it the libs who always accuse powerfull males of using their position to take advantage of low ranking females? Look at all the hell raised over the tailhook scandal. Libs wanted the Chief of Naval Operations canned over something some drunken aviators did in Los Vegas. Evidently what happens in Vegas doesn't stay there! Bill Clinton like the Kennedy boys has a history of abusing women and getting away with it. The list is a long one. The drive by media did a masterful job of turing the issue into consensual sex between adults. I have a question for all libs out there. If Chelsey Clinton had performed the Monica on one of her male professors at Stanford would you defend him? Suppose it was your daughter, niece, or granddaughter. Would you be as supporting? Remember when you point your finger the other three are pointing back at you.

libs and hypocrisy
Libs are always screaming about private behavior between adults is supposed to be private. The tape of the interview showed a very aggresive cop browbeating an embarrassed elderly gentleman. Perhaps craig is in the habit of patrolling men's looking for companionship. But other than tapping his foot and putting fingers under the wall he didn't find what he alledgedly is being held guilty for attempting to do. We don't know either craig's motives or those of the arresting officer. But libs want it both ways. When their moral reprobates get caught they reaily wrap their arms around them and give them a big kiss. The dims and the msm had no difficulty with the male prostitution ring being run from barney franks apartment but are suddenly indignant over this toe tapping episode. Perhaps there are different degrees of guilt but taking a moral highroad is not the journey visited by the dims or the msm

rocker
I see mommy's boy is back questioning david limbaugh intelligence. This accusation comes from the one that many of us consider to be the single biggest idiot coming to these threads. Defend or attack the hypocrisy going on in washington over this and other matters. Attacking the person starting the discussion is jvuenile at best. But with mommy taking care of all your needs I doubt you have a serious take on reality. BTW have yoiu contacted ms arellano yet for a date. She will satisfy all your current wants. You can rally behind your illegal crusade, you can find another woman in your life thasn mommy and you can also adopt someone else's elses b*asard that the illegal tried to use to gain residentcy here. Sounds like a real winner for you

my goodness
Both parties have their hypocrites and both parties specialize in their own type of hypocrisy. The Republican Party has long since claimed the moral high ground as their own province. Therefore, when one of their number behaves amorally, it’s a greater fall. Yes, most certainly the Democrats have their unique province from where the greatest democrat hypocrisies originate; but that’s not the point here. When you have egg on your face, you should wipe it off; not waste your time pointing out the egg on others’ faces.

blarh
Really? Cheating on your wife, in public, in a bathroom, at an airport, in the middle of the day, with another man, "pales in comparison" with Clinton?
umm seeing as craig never did any of that and as clinton did yeah i can see how it pales in comparison

Where is the hipocracy??
If a lawyer defends a rapist that he knows is guilty, he is just doing his job, even if he thinks the guy should fry for it.

If a Senator votes for legislation based on his understanding on what the wishes of a majority of his constituents, it is not hipocracy just because the legislation is incompatable with personal habits, risky as that might be.

As far as I have read, he was representing falmily values voters. To have voted in favor of legislation diminishing family values would have been hipocracy.

Remember, the Senate is not some popularity contest where the winners get to do as they wish. Senators are representatives that are sent to Washington to represent those that voted in the majority.

Hipocracy II
Having said that I think the family values focused voters will probably support a different candidate in the next election cycle whether Craig resigns or not.

I think that Craig will be fighting an uphill battle to convince his constituents that he should continue to be their representative.

Then again, maybe they will look at his voting record and determine that he may be a good representative. Who knows?

Fell off the straight-wagon?
Assuming Craig really does experience same-sex attraction, and just fell off the straight-wagon does that make him a hypocrite?

I don't think so. If being a sinner disqualifies one's right to stand for what's right then nobody would be standing for what's right.

I'm going out on a limb here and say "Kudos for Craig". If he's had same-sex attraction then he's done a valiant job of fighting against it at least legislatively. Of course it would have been far better that he'd successfully fought it in his personal life - but that doesn't make him a hypocrite.

Not anymore than a ex-smoker who supports anti-smoking laws is a hypocrite if they take a puff on a stogey in a moment of weakness. That's just called falling off the wagon.

Big difference. Besides it's pretty condemning of the gay lifestyle when someone who experiences same-sex attraction does all they can legislatively to fight it.

There are many aspects of this whole thing that aren't being explored.

Hypocrisy
Closed Gay Congressmen speechifying against "the gay lifestyle".

"Family Values" Congressmen standing with their second ... or, in some cases, third ... wife, their mistress discreetly watching from the sidelines.

Pro-Iraqi-War Congressmen, determined to fight this war in Iraq to the bitter end .... just as long as their sons are not doing the fighting. (Yale is much nicer in the fall than Baghdad, don'cha know).

"We must conserve energy" spokemen, with their private jet and SUV idling in the background, ready to take them to the next speaking engagement.

I've about had it with hypocrites. Don't talk to me about the above issues unless y'all are walking the walk as well as talking the talk.

Reply to MikeR
MikeR said; "Both parties have their hypocrites and both parties specialize in their own type of hypocrisy."

I think we can all agree on this.

MikeR said; "The Republican Party has long since claimed the moral high ground as their own province. Therefore, when one of their number behaves amorally, it’s a greater fall."

I think you meant "immorally"?

MikeR said; "Yes, most certainly the Democrats have their unique province from where the greatest democrat hypocrisies originate; but that’s not the point here. When you have egg on your face, you should wipe it off; not waste your time pointing out the egg on others’ faces."

When the subject is hypocrisy, then it's the real hypocrisy of the liberals that needs to be pointed out. No one is excusing Craig for his disgusting behavior, but again, the point is, why is it disgusting only if a conservative is guilty of it? And if it's NOT disgusting, as most liberals believe... Then why are they making such a big fuss over it? Again, it boils down to bigotry, intolerance, and hypocrisy on the part of the liberals.

buck2
frank and jefferson are still holding office in washing and frank heads up a house committee. But it is you libs who always cry about one's behavior should be considered private. I am not excusing his behavior. That is a matter to be decided by the voters in idaho. But I assume from your sentiments that gerry studds is one of the shining lights from the dims past. You libs are all alike. Your party is never guilty but repubs always are. I suppose the missus clinton and her latest episode at attracking more money from criminals is likewise no problem with your party.

I hope Van sticks around
He's great comic relief. :)

The price of the moral high ground
Yes, it is a double standard that Democrats impose. So what? If they are truly as bereft of morals as the Right constantly opines, where's the surprise in that?

Yes it is unfair that Senator Craig should feel he has to resign when the serial rapist President Clinton managed to scrape through. We should be proud that a Clinton would not be able to serve as a Republican President.

Republicans claim that they do actually stand for something. Why not bite the bullet and accept that the moral high ground has its price?

Van
No, dude, "hypocrisy" is not a sinner condemning a sin. It is entirely possible to hate the sin you are committing and be incapable of admitting that you are committing it; in fact, the loudest trumpets for Forcible Morality in any field are generally the ones who feel the most helpless to control their behaviour in that field.

This is not hypocrisy. This is realizing that you are doing wrong, condemning your behaviour by projecting it on others, and admitting in a rather convoluted way that you feel powerless to remedy your situation FROM THE INSIDE.

I really believe that Senator Craig and others like him are aching to be caught for that reason: because they cannot admit their wrongdoing yet know they must in order to get help.

Audi
On the other hand you could embrace the proposition that we are all hypocrites, since we advocate (for others AND ourselves) a set of values that we do not live up to.

"Hypocrite!" is very rarely an accusation available to a religious conservative. It was something that Jesus could use because He was perfect. It is something that relativists can use because they perceive that we do not live up to our own values. And since they don't buy Christian morality, they can't believe the "forgiven by the grace of God" excuse/fact that Christians hold on to.

Is this a strategy?
Don't folks think that this "Liberals all said this..." and "Liberals all did that..." tirade is a pretty weak mode of argumentation(here used by Mr Limbaugh)?

I would hope that a journalist with time and resources should be able to name names and date dates in order to turn these straw people into reasonable facsimiles. Now THAT could be the basis of an argument.

We bloggers on the other hand are supposed to be holding down a real job, and thus have more excuse for imprecision!

Some lines need to be drawn
Leo - Yes, it sounds like you have a point.

But maybe Senator Craig opposed gay parenting because he thought that children are better off having a mother and a father. And maybe he sincerely tried to live the life that he believed in, and tried to give his children the family that children ought to have.

Leo - another point
In case you think I am just trying to EXCUSE the senator's behavior, please see my post above: "the price of the moral highground".

eddred
espousing the liberal speaking points don't win arguments. Stating the the dims are minus all hypocrisy and are always on the high moral highroad is absurb. The dims have always proved that there is no cause or people they won't betray. Stating that supporting moral standards but betraying them by personal behavior is inconsistent. Having ideals but not living up to them is a flaw of being human.

Personal choice v genetics
The Right prefers to think that homosexuality is a chosen behavior and the Left tends to think that it is "hard-wired", if I may quote the Pero Negro.

But there are other options, as indicated by Ms Audi. Homosexuality could be something over which one has little control, like a disease of the heart, a spiritual problem which dominates one.

The solution in this case would be spiritual growth, not condemnation and certainly not acceptance of the condition.

Liberal Hypocrisy
When Bill Clinton was caught, it was nobody’s business. NOW, the MSM LIBERAL LIARS run Larry Craig stories ad infinitum. The difference is Liberals REVERE Liars, Cheats and Cowards. Conservatives REVILE THEM!

Mr. Limbaugh
While your article has some valid points I do not think the Dems forced him to resign. Republicans did and with good reason. I don't know nor care whether he is gay. He did however show a serious lack of judgement pleading guilty then trying to cover it up then back peddaling to boot. He should have known better to cave in to that cop if he was innocent. By caving in he showed a serious lack of judgement which of course is exactly what is wrong with Congress.

PeterE
You wrote: "Republicans claim that they do actually stand for something. Why not bite the bullet and accept that the moral high ground has its price?"


Well said. Exactly right.

Leo
Your arguments would hold a lot more water if you dropped the "you hate gays" and "it's all good as long as gays get hurt" crap. It is possible to disagree with the gay agenda but not hate gays. It IS impossible to have an intelligent conversation with a gay activist because they so casually and easily (and quickly) fall back to the "bigot, hater, homophobe" argument. I don't think the govt. belongs in the bedroom and whomever you choose to have relations with, that's for you to decide. But I do not, and will not, ever agree that gays need to be a protected class of citizens with special rights and extra laws protecting them (hate crimes laws). Now go ahead and call me names while completely ignoring the content of what I wrote.

Anthony Thomas
Your exactly the type who is so shocked when the govt. does something stupid. If they can't conduct their personal lives and show good judgement then what in the heck makes you think they can conduct govt. business? They either have sound judgement all the way around or they don't.

Larry Craig
All of this is pretty moot anyway. Hearing the people that he represents, he was on the way out anyway due to his stance on Illegal Immigration. He wasn't going to win his next election anyway.
Real people know that no one is perfect, so the argument that Republicans chose the high ground for campaigns in "The Moral Majority" doesn't necessarily indicate that Republicans are faultless, but that we will not stand for immoral actions as one of our representatives. Liberals make no such claim, so they can and do what they please without repercussion. Hence, Frank, Stutts, Jefferson, Clinton...and the list goes on.
At some point, we need to decide how far we will let them take the "Moral Majority" statement to mean that we either be without reproach, or outta there!
The earlier point that Craig may have legislated to the party platform should also lead credence to his party. Regardless of his personal behavior, he was still representing the people that voted for him in the issues. (not withstanding his stance on Illegal Immigration)

Liberals have too narrow a definition
of the word hypocrisy. It does not only apply to those people who espouse high moral standards in public but living a secret life that doesn't measure up. Liberals have set their own standards of what they consider right and wrong and are just as guilty of hypocrisy as anyone else. Take Nancy Pelosi publically espousing worker's right to unionize...but doesn't not have any unionized workers in her own businesses. Take Mr. Gore and Mr. Edwards who daily lecture and propagandize about the dangers of global warming and the need for all Americans to reduce their carbon footprints by more frugal living while they exempt themselves owning huge mansions that use as much energy as 80 normal household and driving their own SUV's and frequently flying to pollute the air with more of their hypocrisies. I do disagree with Mr. Limbaugh on one point however... the GOP should never abandon the practice of holding our own accountable for known hypocrisies like the DEMs do. Not to hold politicians of any stripe personally accountable for hypocrisy and the underlying "sin" would perpeptuate the practice.

A point
Arguing that there is a hypocritical disconnect between advocating childrearing in traditional marriage -- while doing exactly that -- and also cruising public restrooms for gay sex, does the opposite of make gay advocates' point.

Marriage and raising children are the biggest life challenges any of us take on. Larry Craig chose to commit himself to a heterosexual marriage, and to raising his children with the wife he united himself to and apparently has not sought to leave. Everything he has is tied up in a traditional, heterosexual marriage.

Most of us recognize that our lifetime commitments are far more significant -- morally, spiritually, financially -- than 90 seconds of sex.

I agree with BrianR that Craig needs to be held to the standard he invoked to get elected. I'll let the voters of Idaho take care of that.

But it's apparently a gay lobby idea that cruising for anonymous sex in a restroom is a choice on a social or moral par with making a lifetime commitment that involves everything from who can sign checks on your bank account, to who will take care of you in your old age -- and who will still live in the same house with you when your peccadilloes are revealed.

Cruising for anonymous sex is hardly a compelling poster child for a movement. By embracing this episode as representative of gayness, gay advocates merely reinforce the perception of average people that this is no lifestyle in which to raise children, and that its eligibility for recognition by the state is highly disputable.

Leo
you may be trying to make a point, but you just come off as petulant. Why is it that you expect others to be sensitive, when you will not extend that courtesy to others? Oh, because you have had experience with ........(fill in the dots). Isn't that just discrimination?

Did I
just say you come off as petulant?!

This once-Christian country
is one of the safest places in the world for homosexuals, and that is because of the Christian tradition of tolerance and forgiveness, although they have very often not been observed.

Another once-Christian country, Australia, and all those other once-Christian countries of Europe are also safe places for homosexuals.

Those nazis you referred to had a different code of conduct as did the communist regimes, and most any other religiously-ruled nations.

I'm sorry you have had such a bad experience, but you are simply wrong to blame Christianity for that. Blame the Christians who got it wrong. Also don't mistake the verbal animus on this site for anything approaching action. That's why you sound petulant.

The left's hypocrisy
is that despite supposedly supporting homosexuals, whenever someone annoys them, one of their first accusations is homosecuality.

Look at J. Edgar Hoover. A nasty joke has become a factoid of pol life. When a homosexual is a Rep. or not generally PC, then homosexuality is used to annihilate the person's career: ergo, Foley and Craig. If they had been Dems. libs. would be holding rallies in support of Craig.

Even our bent state department (never right wing) for years warned esp. foreign-stationed employees that homosexuality would be used as blackmail.

I'm a Presbyterian, and my church has never preached hatred of homosexuals. And those people who write about Christian hatred are prob. the haters themselves.

Actaully, the biggest change Christianity brought to human culture was 1) that the meek shall inherit the earth--whereas in ancient pagan culture, the poor were cursed by the gods and the wealthy were beloved of them, and 2) Christians had a personal relationaship with Christ--whereas, the ancient pagan gods were (usually) aloof and impersonal. In Egypt, only the priests entered the inner sanctum of temples to communicate with the deity.

Many scholars believe the latter is what gave rise to our ideas of Western freedomn of the individual in general.

I dont get it
I dont know what Larry Craig actually plead to. Can anyone expand on it.
If it was touching someones shoe with his, or letting his hand be seen below the partition, or looking thru the crack in the front of a stall to see if it was occupied, then I may be guilty also. So may a lot of us. Now if he plead to public lewdness or some such then he deserves to be kicked out if for no other reason than he's too stupid to be a senator. So just what did he plead to?

I dont get it
I dont know what Larry Craig actually plead to. Can anyone expand on it.
If it was touching someones shoe with his, or letting his hand be seen below the partition, or looking thru the crack in the front of a stall to see if it was occupied, then I may be guilty also. So may a lot of us. Now if he plead to public lewdness or some such then he deserves to be kicked out if for no other reason than he's too stupid to be a senator. So just what did he plead to?

Why do you post here
you should get yourself together. Your bleeding heart is making a mess all over the place. Aren't you ashamed of expressing yourself in such a way?

I used to post on a site called worldmagblog, and everytime some political issue came about which somehow related to homosexuality, some man would come on to the site and expose his gaping wounds for all to see, just like Leo.

Seriously, these people need therapy, not political blogs.

The Medved thread
carries a lot of offensive stuff. To identify it somehow with Christianity is a serious mistake.

Whenever I mosey over to the daily kos or that huffington place - or even the threads on MSNBC articles - I find comments that are offensive to conservatives, to Christians, to Republicans. Its a sad fact, Leo, that a lot of people can't conduct a discussion without personal abuse. But its a fact that you should face, because you are a practictioner of the same (lack of) art.

PeterE and Leo
PeterE: To quote Inago Montoya, "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

hy·poc·ri·sy (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

Now if you parse this, you will see that the only person who knows for sure that Mr. Craig does not hold or possess those beliefs, feelings and virtues he espouses is Mr. Craig himself. Oh, and God, of course. It is absolutely possible to hold and espouse and BELIEVE that what you are doing is wrong -- and continue to do it. As a recovering alcoholic, I can bear witness to that!

Leo: If you can show me one documented instance in which Mr. Craig threw any Gay person into a concentration camp or into prison for merely being gay, or any proof that Mr. Craig is himself gay, then point to it. (If you argue that being caught cruising in a bathroom is "proof" that one is gay, then I trust you did not attend an all-male prep school, boarding school or summer camp or know anybody who did....

We are certainly false
for Jesus said "be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48), and yet we constantly fall short of the goal.

Still we hold fast to the ideal of perfection that God has placed before us.

Leo
Leo, Leo, Leo. When I ended my last post with an invitation to hurl insults at me, it was an attempt to appeal to your better nature and not do so. Please do not mischaracterize my words. There is a difference between "equal protection under the law" and special victimhood status. If someone stabs me and then stabs you, should that person do more time for stabbing you because you are gay? Hate crime laws add on more prison time when the victim is a member of an "aggrieved victim class" (TM). So, changing what I wrote to supprt your assertion does not make it a true one. I will make it very clear: All American citizens, regardless of race, religion, sex or orientation should be equally protected under the law. But nobody should be "more equal" than others, which is what your political agenda is all about. Further, how do you know me and what my views about gays are? You engage in endless hyperbole about the "hate" and the "kill all the gays" screeds written here but you have no evidence to back it up. I don't have to justify anything to you or anyone else but I certainly have never been a gay basher or homophobic. You clearly show your inability to think logically, a lack of intelligence and an enormous ego in your posts. I was attempting to engage you in a real conversation and just got insulted. Won't happen again.

Hey Leo
You lied:

"I see Christians the same way Jews see neonazis."

No, you see Christians the same way Nazis see Jews. This thread is full of your quotes proving it. You know it. I know it. Everyone here knows it.

How can any thinking person not be terrified of leftists in power?

Limbaugh
Leo: Just one question for you; Why is it that the LBGT community needs to wear it's sexuality on it's sleeve? Don't see a lot of folks running around saying"I'm hetero and proud" do you?

CVN65 Exactly correct
Hate crimes intend to protect the downtroden when in fact the establish that the "protected" group is LESS equal and therefore in need of MORE protection. In reality its just more feel good legislation. And does nothing but devalue the majority. Equal is equal and they just dont get it.

forget hypocracy
Craig must leave when we kick all the perverts out of Congress... Barney Frank leading the exodus.

Leo
Again,Leo, your ignorance of anything shines through.In case you missed it, according to the Triangle Foundation,1 of 10 people are not hetero.Guess that means you are still in a minority. I do not boast of anything about my personal life, especially my sex life. It is of no one's concern but mine. Are you banned from putting pictures of your spouse,or sig. other on your desk,Leo? How do you know what is on desks,etc. you cannot see? You have NO idea what my thoughts on gay issues are,Leo, since we do not know each other. You want to call me an idiot, that is O.K. by me,as they are but words on a screen coming from someone who knows NOTHING about,nor means anything to me. Have a nice day.

clyde
For the record, and I hate myself for saying it, but Leo was correct in his response. Us heterosexuals are just as in the face of others with our sexuality as are the gays. You don't notice this because it is always all around you and always has been. (Except on Pride weekend, then it is very much on display along with a little too much public display of private parts.) This is the answer I got from a gay friend years ago and, after thinking about it for some time, realized that it is true. Also, I have been insulted by gays for being straight. Once, at my wife's hairdressers holiday party I was asked if I was a "breeder". I responded that I was, just like the questioner's parents were. That stopped that cold.

Leo
There is a difference between adhering to your beliefs, when confronted by the demands of others that you repudiate them, and having the prior intention to make other people feel bad by saying mean things.

Not being able to tell the difference is a hallmark of juvenile thought processes. So is feeling hated, or even rebuked, every time someone disagrees with you.

It appears that the only thing Christians could do to avoid being accused by you of hatred is to categorically repudiate their beliefs, and labor to make you feel good about your choices.

A couple of things: first, I DO repudiate the repugnant comments of genuine gay-bashers -- and they do exist -- that gays should be subjected to ugly punishments for gay behavior. This is a vile and un-Christian attitude, and no true Christian should support it.

Second, it is not and never will be the job of the government to make sure that other people say only the things you want to hear -- in other words, enforcing YOUR concept of "tolerance," which requires positive endorsement of your choices, on the rest of mankind.

I do think it's interesting, in terms of who is dissing whom, that I can't ever recall a time when I've seen a nun go out in public impersonating a gay man, for the purpose of holding him up to ridicule, or subverting and disdaining the social construct that gives him status.

context
Context... CONTEXT. Hatred is not in and of itself a bad thing, in spite of liberal indoctrination to the contrary. Some things SHOULD be hated.

So what am I accused of hating here... perverts? Sorry, I'm not going to feel bad about wanting perverts out of Congress. Heck, I didn't even specify sexual perverts. Perverters of reality should be ridden out of Congress on a rail...

Or am I a hater because I openly assert that homosexual appetites are perverted? So are appetites for children, dogs, and footwear. Just because the latter three can't consent doesn't make the appetite any more perverted.

"You don't have to. You run around with your spouse, you talk about them you boast about your sexual conquests, you put the pictures of them to your desk, you have images of straight couples in every magazine, TV series. The whole world is one straight pride so don't come whining how gays wear their sexuality in their sleeve."

Leo, rent a clue; there is no equality between homosexual appetites and heterosexual appetites. Men are SUPPOSED to want to have carnal knowledge of women. It's how the species perpetuates itself. It's why sexual appetites exist at all. It's why addictions exist.

The same can't be said for any other sexual appetite.

clyde
That wasn't meant to ding on you. It was just something that has come up in the past that I have thought about quite a bit. It is not worth your time to respond to Leo.

questions
if 95% of the people are heterosexual,why is their lifestyle supposidily in the face of the 5% who are in the gay community. What people do in the private lives and homes is their business, and most of us could care less. But the gay minority now claiming that there is something wrong with the heterosexual majorities behavior seems very weird. I personally don't care to see any overt behavior in public but I am speaking for myself and don't have the right to impose my views on others. But in any setting, minorities don't make the rules for majorities. We hear from the gays that we shouldn't be offended by their behavior. Well it is a two way street. Don't tell hetero's how they should behave when they are with their spouses

Leo - nice trick
Leo claims that that the hetero lifestyle is rammed down his throat 24/7 in all of media. again, hurting his feelings. (It's all about feelings, it really is). While some of it is excessive and extreme, HETEROsexuality IS NORMAL and healthy. It is the proper order of humanity, thus should be seen and shown in respective, healthy ways.

Since, imo, HOMOsexuality IS A CHOICE, an improper one at that, it should NOT be seen. So, I agree with the poster who says that gays wear their sexuality on their sleve and ram it down our throats.


Leo I don't get it...
if you are so offended by some of the posts why do you return to the websites where you find them. If I see a really offensive post I mark it as such and move on. There are all kinds of people and points of view on these boards and Lord knows I don't agree with a good deal of them but I don't whine and wail because they are there. If you don't like Christians just wait for the Rapture then you will be troubled by them no longer. Love in Christ, CC

Limbaugh
CVN 65: While you make a valid point,what I was trying to get from Leo,and maybe my phrasing was in error, but it seems to me that some in the LBGT community believe we should accept them BECAUSE of their sexuality, not for the people they are. I could care less about Leo,or who his partner is. Frankly,it is NOMFB.Nor should it be anyone else's. Leo, if a stranger was being beaten on the street,how would ANYONE know at that point,what,or who, they were? I would try to do something,would you?

Limbaugh
BTW,CVN 65,no ding,offense,or anything else taken.

SFASU says:
"Actually you belittle Veterans and Active Duty Military on a daily basis. You really don't give two sh!ts about the military, and your posts prove it."

You're just to thick to understand. Yes, I think the American military has been used shamefully since 1945 - almost without exception. I think what we did in Vietnam and Iraq constitutes war crimes - and probably Korea, but that war is a slight bit more complicated. I think that the American fighting man is the greatest warrior even seen on the face of this earth - as they say - there is no more dangerous a weapon than a US Marine with a fixed bayonet. I've never doubted the bravery, courage or honor of the US fighting man. But just because you wore the uniform, that doesn't mean you can accuse Americans of cowardice or treason because they disagree with Bush or this war - and when you do, you disgrace that uniform and than you're just a lowlife who knows how to march...

what happened to the voters?
Whatever Craig did or did not do, I see absolutely no reason for his fellow Republicans in the Senate to demand his resignation. Craig is answerable to the voters who put him in office; if they want him out, they can exercise their lawful franchise and remove him. Craig has a spotless record, as far as I'm aware. He was evidently regarded favorably by majorities of voters for years. I guess Republicans aren't happy with the democratic process; they want to avoid being identified as the party that tolerates gays, so Craig had to go.

I suggest that what the Republicans need is some sort of rule to the effect that all Republicans have to swear that they are straight. Then they need to swear that they are religious. Proof will need to be offered for both afffirmations. If the Republicans did this, their party would fit their ideology. It would also be smaller, which, as a liberal Democrat, would give me great pleasure.

homosexuals are advocating for...
...hustpaul writes: Wednesday, September, 05, 2007 8:36 AM
What "Special Rights"
What "special rights" is it that you believe homosexuals are advocating for, Mr. Limbaugh?
______________________________________________

Hate crime laws, the right to 'marry,' the right to exhibit their perversions in their parades, the list is endless, but you know all of this.

Leo, Van and the rest of you...
homosexuals and homosexualists: Understand, you are a tiny minority, not the immense percentage your Saint Alfred Kinsey said (20% I seem to remember)--you people want to be the tails that wags the dog, make up down, down up, bad good, good bad, etc and we are not going to let it happen. Whine all you want, although I'd prefer that you whine at one of the juicy lib/lefty websites, not here. I get sick listening to you.

Further, the homosexual practices that you homosexuals and homosexualists try to defend are NOT healthy. The homosexual life is not healthy, not happy and NOT because I think it is wrong.

Please try to understand that normal people see your efforts as trying to end the values, customs, system that made the US the greatest country in the world for the last 200 or so years. We are not going to have any of your nonsense.

ALL homosexuals are pedophiles

Gay couple left free to abuse boys - because social workers feared being branded homophobic
By PAUL SIMS
Daily Mail
Last updated at 21:53pm on 5th September 2007

A homosexual foster couple were left free to sexually abuse vulnerable boys in their care because social workers feared being accused of discrimination if they investigated complaints, an inquiry concluded yesterday.

Craig Faunch and Ian Wathey were one of the first homosexual couples in the country to be officially approved as foster parents.

They looked after 18 children in only 15 months.

(article continues)

Full article and many comments at:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480151&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments
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