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Friday, August 24, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Defeatist Dems Sing Same Song, Different Key
by David Limbaugh
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The Democrats' latest ploy of shifting the goal posts to dampen Gen. Petraeus's anticipated report of military successes in Iraq by emphasizing the slow progress on the political side makes it increasingly hard to deny they are working for defeat at all costs.

From Sens. Carl Levin, to Dick Durbin to Hillary Clinton, Democrats who have been on the front lines forecasting our military defeat in Iraq are now scrambling to repackage their message -- retrospectively.

Upon returning from Iraq, Levin grudgingly conceded the surge was working, but quickly diluted his positive assessment with negative assurances to his party's antiwar base that political progress was lagging. Hillary Clinton agrees we're making headway militarily, but not soon enough, and certainly not politically, so we must begin to withdraw -- now.

But Democrats haven't been rooting for political success in Iraq either. Remember their underwhelming reaction to the landmark January 2005 elections, when millions of Iraqis risked their lives to vote? Democrats refused to be pleased, complaining that too few Sunnis participated.

There's also the question of what Democrats mean by political progress. Some of these self-styled "democrats," like Clinton, who criticize the U.S. for imposing its will, are demanding that Iraq's Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki be removed from office. So much for the "progressives'" view of Iraqi sovereignty.

But all of this is just smoke and mirrors. While Democrats are actually against the war, their primary opposition is now mostly partisan politics. The prospect of a successful mission is truly unthinkable, because it would spell their demise for years to come. House Majority Whip James Clyburn has admitted as much.

Politics is also mostly why they're up in arms over President Bush's invocation of Vietnam in his VFW speech, even though they have been using the Vietnam/Iraq comparison from the get-go.

Bush said, "Then, as now, people argued that the real problem was America's presence and that if we would just withdraw, the killing would end," which he argued was a "costly impression." "One unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like 'boat people,' re-education camps,' and 'killing fields.'"

Sen. Reid spit back, "President Bush's attempt to compare the war in Iraq to past military conflicts in East Asia ignores the fundamental difference between the two. Our nation was misled by the Bush administration in an effort to gain support for the invasion of Iraq under false pretenses, leading to one of the worst foreign policy blunders in our history."

Reid must like the way those phrases roll off his forked tongue because he says them repeatedly, whether or not they have anything to do with the topic under discussion.

Forget the falsity of Reid's accusations. What possible relevance could they have to whether we should complete our mission in Iraq, unless Reid is arguing our cause is unjust (which it manifestly is not)?

It's one thing to have argued against the invasion on military grounds, as in, "it could lead to a quagmire." Indeed, Reid earlier declared the war unwinnable. But that's obviously not what Reid is saying here because it wouldn't help his case: He knows Petraeus will soon report we are emerging from a military quagmire. Reid's statement only makes sense if he's arguing our cause is unjust, and he must be called on this in the strongest terms.

Besides, Reid and other Democrats have no standing to complain about Bush's Vietnam analogy, since they were the first to raise it -- albeit for other (and erroneous) reasons.

But President Bush is correct. Antiwar advocates of the Vietnam era said we fabricated the Gulf of Tonkin incident to get into war. Whether they're correct about that or not, the liberals' moral case against our intervention in Vietnam didn't stop there.

They said Vietnam was a civil war, as opposed to one being stoked by foreign communist regimes in the Soviet Union and Red China. They said we were the aggressors. They said the South Vietnamese people just wanted to be left alone in peace, not caring about the form of government. And they arrogantly and callously dismissed predictions that a bloodbath would ensue should we withdraw.

To this day, Sen. Kerry, consistent with his habit of demonizing the good guys and apologizing for the evil ones, actually says a bloodbath did not occur and that the communist "re-education" camps were beneficial to those indoctrinated.

The more the Democratic leaders try to sabotage our mission in Iraq, the more they will ingratiate themselves to their rabid antiwar base, but the harder it will be for them to avoid their own quagmire in November 2008, when national security issues will be front and center.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Super Insightful
Wow, Democrats are against the war so they can
get votes. Hmmm. There is a grain of truth in
that, if you put it another way. They want to
represent the majority of the citizenry, who don't want the war to continue.

I think that the only people left who are still
for the war are those who can make money off
from it and those who think that greatness comes
from power and wealth above all else. Don't you
just love their swagger!

They are also pretty much the same people who
love to tell the world how liberals create situations that will make people poorer,
so that they can build up their constituency.

That is categorically not true. We don't need
to create situations. The rich (the greedy rich)
do it for us. We just wait to pick up the pieces.


Is Draft Dodging Hereditary
And your song is any different? "Dig the hole deeper, dig the hole deeper."

I believe it was Powell's comment that if you break it, you own it. Your side broke what could have been a winnable war, now you tell the left to fix it.

Unless you served in the military, don't criticize those who have who are Democrats and want this war over.

This is still a country that allows free speech even if it doesn't spin the Administration line.

How many more of our real patriots have to die for your AEI agenda?

They lied to my generation about Vietnam and they lied about Iraq.

No WMDs when we invaded, no drones flying over to bomb US, no parades to greet US. Not enough troops sent or armour, etc. etc. etc. Cheney still making money on his blind trust in Haliburton. 20,000 troops wounded and now they are kicking kids out without benefits and declaring they had psychological pre-existing problems.

Yeah, the right really support our troops: as long as they are over there and not back here needing care.

But I do like Ari's spin on TV that he sacrifices every time an American dies in Iraq.

War is still a racket of the rich. Smedley Butler, Gen. USMC Departed and 2 time Medal of Honor Winner.

Bring back the draft and let the burden of death be shared by all.

Please read Doonesbury today.

END
Dream on, conservatives. Now that you all have brought us into this mess I'm sure your brilliant president will find a way out of it.


AND
Each direction carries danger.

There are about 160,000 U.S. troops in Iraq and, even if Bush does nothing, that number will fall to previous levels of 130,000 in about a year, because of limits on the length of time soldiers can be deployed to Iraq. The secretary of the Army said this week that there will be no extensions; those lead to stress and an increase in suicides, he said.

Marine Gen. Peter Pace, the outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, is expected to urge Bush to reduce U.S. troops to 100,000 by next year, according to the Los Angeles Times. Pace, via a spokesman, called the report "purely speculative," although he did not deny that such a cut was being considered.

Bush "has backed himself into a huge corner ... because all the way back in 2002 when they dreamed up this war, they chose not to expand the size of the U.S. forces," said Andrew Bacevich, a West Point graduate and professor of international relations at Boston University. The president now has "a lousy range of options," he said

AND
Bush's move to increase troop levels has brought "measurable but uneven" security improvements, in the words of the intelligence estimate -- but utterly failed to achieve its goal of spurring political reconciliation. The level of civilian casualties and attacks remains high, the estimate found.

Bush can move backward, by initiating a troop withdrawal. He can move sideways, by seeing if there's some way to replace al-Maliki and his democratically elected government. Or he can move forward, by staying the course.


AND
More than four years after the invasion of Iraq, and after countless strategies, plans and revisions have failed to pacify the nation, President Bush next month faces what may be the final major decisions he can make on the war.

But even before top U.S. commander Gen. David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker report to Congress, an event now scheduled for Sept. 11, Bush appears hemmed in by decisions he and others made months or years ago.

His generals are calling for troop cuts in Iraq because the strain has limited the Army's ability to respond to other crises. There is widespread agreement that the additional 28,000 U.S. troops dispatched by Bush will have to begin coming home when their 15-month tours start to end in April.

Bush's one-time hope in Baghdad, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who was installed in April 2006 after intervention by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, has failed to unify the government, improve basic services or pass major legislation.


reality check
(according to Fox news:

One way to look at the National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq released this week is to review what it describes as the best-case scenario.

In that scenario, Iraq's security will improve modestly over the next six to 12 months, but violence will remain high. The U.S.-backed government will grow more fragile and remain unable to govern. Shiite and Sunni Muslims will continue to feud. All sides will position themselves for an eventual American departure.

In Iraq, best-case scenarios rarely, if ever, have come to pass.


Chris and Georgetwin prove my point
Conservatives are shallow fools.

I provide a cogent, coherent description of the problem and the solution.

I have been proven right, time after time, in my predictions on this forum.

Yet all they can do is put their fingers in their ears to avoid hearing the truth and call me names.

At least conservatives like John Warner have the sense to deal with reality. And our military leaders like General Pace are listening to them.

Maybe the troop pullout will begin even before Hillary's coronation, er, inauguration....

Tea Party: Actually, I try not to take

any prisoners. Way too much paperwork! :-)



Anne
You are gooood. You don't believe in taking any prisoners do you?

eddred: You only made room for 5?
.



It doesn't matter
whether we win or lose this war, Dems will criticize either way.

Jokers to the right of us
I like the fact that Limbaugh, if nothing else, is consistent. Here he calls out anyone who finds General Patreaus' straight-from-the-WH-spin-machine "report" on the surge suspicious. Is Limbaugh a serious person, or is he just what I think of as a modern day court jester?

U.S. Public Remains UnConvinced..
..
Mr. Limbaugh, you and the repubs/cons that back Prez Bush on his Iraq policies and obessesed with "winning" in Iraq, have a much bigger problem that Democratic politicians who are basically representing the anti-war viewpoints and postitions of their base constituents.

Your biggest problem is convincing the vast majority of the american public, who are clearly against the Iraq War, Prez Bush's prosecution of it and want it ended as soon as possible, that Gen.Petreus so called "military successes" of too little to late are moving in the direction of ending this war, which they are not.

As long as Prez Bush continues to "stay the course until victory is won", he is defying the will of the american public and that is tantamount to political suicide for the republican party come election year 2008.
It President Bush doesnt start withdrawing american troops & bring this iraq war debacle to a conclusion by Prez election 2008. the american people will elect a democratic president and congress that will. that is a simple fact people like david limbaugh dont want to confront.


tanabear
You prove my point about liberals posting the same old tired worn out dribble day after day after day for five years. Time and history have marched on and you are left behind(pun intended).

Slackers
Are so Lazy, Worthless and Gutless!

TanninBare your full of it
You are a bitter creature. Crawl back under your slimy rock. Chuck Out...

"true" Captain America
Side note:
Before you take that name, you should know the character. There were 7 Captain America's, the first died last spring.

You are more like the 5th and 7th. The fith was a Nazi dressed as Capt. called the Grand Dictator, the 7th was a man who was pushed into insanity by a group called the WatchDogs who killed his mother and father, sending him on a killing spree of epic proportions.

The "true" Captain America, is someone you will never know, a hero, a patriot and an icon that helped to mold a generation.

SSGTRET
Your assumption that staying will make things better and ultimately succeed is even more speculative.

Any withdrawl will take some time, and we probably need to keep some troops offshore or somewhere close to guard against the worst case scenario. But the Iraqis must be made to assume responsibility for their own future.

Admittedly we made the mess and perhaps we need to offer some financial support if they get their house in order but we cannot indefinitely assume responsibility for their future without their making a more serious effort.

slacker, by definition...
slack'er (noun) - a young educated person who is disaffected or apathetic, and underachieving.

Your name says it all. No wonder your ideas are so shallow and silly; you've obviously never taken the time to read or research or listen to people who KNOW what they're talking about.

Your name fits... keep it.

But don't be surprised or upset that we don't give any credence to your words.

Warren Small
I have to agree you got all that phony baloney from Zinn and Mailer. The self hater crowd. You also seem to negate the fact that so called civil war was started by communists in order to spread communism around the world. And thanks to people like you it worked. Millions died. We also ended up having to subsidize communism because of people like you. That in the end caused millions more to die and be subjugated.

Cut the bs and post at Huffington echo chamber. I am sure they will enjoy it.

SSGTRET
Assume the tree is alive,--even though the evidence suggests otherwise--how long are you willing to stay to see it grow if it ever does? How many deaths are we willing to suffer and inflict? How much are we willing to spend to see it through. Given the circumstances it could take twenty years. Remember too there are "opportunity costs" to whatever you may be willing to do. It means suffering further damage to our global reputation, trillions of dollars spent on the war and not other needs, and things in our foreign policy that need to be done such as get the Iranians to give up an alleged nuclear program.

While there will be some reprecussions from our departure, there may be as many and probably more that result from our staying.

Why the surge is failing
The whole concept is flawed. The surge is based on achieving an impossible objective of giving the Maliki government time to establish a democratic political government that can control the country.

But, THE NOTION OF A DEMOCRATIC SHIITE ISLAMIC STATE RUN BY CORRUPT BUTT KISSING FRONTMEN LIKE MALIKI FOR FANATIC MULLAHS LIKE SADR IS AN OXYMORON. All our troops and their friends and families who have been thanklessly sacrificed to further this naive flawed visions of Bush/Cheney made those sacrifices in vain.

What is going on in Iraq now is a civil war between several factions:

Shiite vs Sunni clerics in insane disputes over interpretations of an insane religion.

Shiite vs. Sunni citizens who believe they have suffered for centuries under each others hands, hate each other and want revenge as nasty and brutal as they can get it.

Other countries like Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia that want one side or the other to win in the Iraq civil wars for religious, political or economic reasons and will be constantly intervening as long as the Iraqi government is too weak to prevent them.

Al Qaeda who wants to see the US bogged down in Iraq for years trying to achieve the impossible while they practice how to kill our soldiers, defend themselves against us and keep us busy there so they have breathing room to create evil in other parts of the world.

Criminals trying to rip off the Iraqi people and the US to enrich themselves by siphoning off oil revenues and streams of billions of dollars in US Aid.

It goes on and on. Wake up conservatives. Warner is right. We must tell the Iraqi government that we mean what we say. Our commitment to them is not open ended.

Conservatives are so small minded
They have so little sense of history.

Bush is an incoherent fool to claim that events in Vietnam show we should stay in Iraq. Take a look at Vietnam now, after years of communist rule.

The truth is that other than the unfortunate souls in the US and Vietnam old enough to have experienced the war, it is as if it NEVER HAPPENED!!! Vietnam is now a trade partner with the US. We are on friendly terms with them. We trade with them. They are no longer our enemy.

Face it deluded conservatives. The American souls who gave life and limb to fight in the Vietnam War made their sacrifices for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. All who lost fathers, brothers, friends in that war lost them for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

The War in Iraq is not the same as Vietnam, but Bush is failing there just as badly as Johnson did in Vietnam. He is just failing there for different reasons.

Limbaugh is a fool because he doesn't listen to the truths both liberals and intelligent conservatives like Warner are telling him. No one is saying our military can be defeated by the insurgents or Islamic militias in Iraq. Really. Pay attention. No credible one is saying that some rag tag band of bandits will defeat the US military in a military conflict.

What they are saying is that the surge WILL NOT WORK in Iraq because it is TRYING TO ACHIEVE AN IMPOSSIBLE OBJECTIVE: to make it possible for the Iraqis to establish a democratic state that can deal with the violence and terrorism in that country on its own.

Chris: :-)

Between Joj, Liberty, Roberto, etc., they seem to like to TRY to slam me.

But, as our troop, active and retired, keep telling me, "You know you're over the target when they start shooting at you!"

LOL


Jo j: Just exactly who and how do you

qualify as a "name caller?"

It appears it's anyone who doens't agree with you. LOL





Jo J writes:
"Anne YOURE so articulate and clever… I suggest you FGO over Bush's speeches from the last 5 years… you make up stupid names, and never HAVE REAL IDEA that contributes to anything… Still waiting for your ANSER to my questions… POSTER LIKE YOU GIVE conservatives a bad name… It convinces articulate people…"

Jo J, you really should NOT talk to other people about being articulate until you do a little better yourself.

You also referenced "a sort of orgasmic experience like sneezing"... I'm sorry sneezing is the best you can do. I'll bet Anne can do better.

LOL! TOO RICH!! :)


jo j
Never said I did. Learn To Read!

A doctor
was performing an examination on a liberal professor. When the doctor shined his light into the Gentlemans ear, the doctor screamed OH MY GOD!!
The startled professor said "What's the matter DOC?
The doctor said, I can read the eye chart on the other side A E I O U

OOPs, your missing the best part
__"REID: No, I don't believe him, because it's not happening. All you have to do is look at the facts."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0704/23/sitroom.02.html

jo j Reid and infering Petraeus Lied
__When you say that you do not believe someones words, you are infering; deriving from induction, or deduction. With out proof of your unbelief, you are calling the person a liar. The following is from CNN, you can find this comment a little more than half way down the page.

"Harry Reid spoke with our Congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, about the showdown and his controversial assessment of the war."

"BASH: You talked several times about General Petraeus. You know that he is here in town. He was at the White House today, sitting with the president in the Oval Office and the president said that he wants to make it clear that Washington should not be telling him, General Petraeus, a commander on the ground in Iraq, what to do, particularly, the president was talking about Democrats in Congress. He also said that General Petraeus is going to come to the Hill and make it clear to you that there is progress going on in Iraq, that the so-called surge is working. Will you believe him when he says that?"

Jo j
Since you know so much about Katrina I'm amazed you didn't know the guard was there helping William Jefferson carry his things out of his house Three large trucks it took to get his things out.Hopefully he gave them some of his COLD hard cash for their help

Good
It looks like all the name-callers have dropped off.

My day is a success!

A sad statistic
Suicide among American GIs in Iraq is now the highest it has ever been in American history. This is something you won't read about on TH or hear on talk radio - so I know people who only rely on those sources for news won't believe it's true.

There are all kinds of casualties in this war - I can only hope that the mindset of this administration is one of them.

JPH, Rogue, SteveL
I think another problem with partition is that over three million Iraquis have left the country, and statistics show that they are gnerally the professionals, the educated, etc. - in short, the people who are best equipped to build a new society, both structurally and government-building. Also, although Sunnis are in the minority, they tended to be the most urban, educated group in Iraq, so it will not be an even playing field in terms of recovery.

RogueCowboy
I think that's an idea that's been out there for a while. I think it has some merit, and in the end may be the only workable way to solve many of the problems there. But the logistics of oil revenue sharing, etc. would be more complicated to work out.

The problem is that now hatred and revenge are so entrenched there, both historically and also as a result of this war, that I'm personally skeptical as to whether there could even be peace with everybody separated from each other.

In the end, I think that any solution will have to come from the Iraqis themselves - I just don't think that one can be imposed from outside.

Sheepdog
The problem with your analogy is that the tree has died and you continue to claim that it is alive.

JPH
You are right, except that several of those groups have split into even more factions. I heard one military officer there say that there are now about 4 civil wars being conducted there.

Is Joe Biden a DEMOCRAT?
appears that Senator Joe Biden's plan to resolve the problems in Iraq is happening without Bush's support.

BAGHDAD, Aug. 23 — The number of Iraqis fleeing their homes has soared since the American troop increase began in February, according to data from two humanitarian groups, accelerating the partition of the country into sectarian enclaves.

Biden A Democart has been proposing dividing Iraq into 3 states for at least 9 months.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/24/world/middleeast/24displaced.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

SteveL; the rest
My assessment is that Bush bluffed, thinking it would work - He didn't know for sure if there were WMD but wanted to invade Iraq so badly that he used that as the excuse (that and 9/11) thinking that the WMD would probably turn up and no one would every know that he had gambled the lives of so many people. Unfortunately, he bet and lost. (Although he didn't lose as much as thousand of American GIs and their families, or as much as thousands of Iraqis who also paid with their own lives, the lives that were going to be so improved without Hussein).

There has been a major putsch to make this pig's ear look like a rose, but even if Anne gets her wish and every single terrorist or terrorist look-alike is put up against a wall and shot, it will not hold the bitter factions together, now made more intractable by the horrors of this war, which has produced a coming generation of children who's fathers have been tortured to death or blown up by car bombs.

The only way that Bush can make this even resemble success to announce a new objective. It's not likely the original one of Democracy is going to fly - aside from the fact that they can't agree on anything they can't even provide water or electricity.

If you drop off this thread I'm going as well. So far, yours has been the only post that shows any interest in real ideas.


SteveL
The dream of invading Iraq had been posited by Wolfowitz almost ten years before the fact.

Actually, the irony of all this is that there was such a rush of emotion after 9/11 that the press, (yes the one that conservatives say is so unfair to them) ignored evidence that WMD didn't exist or relegated to the back pages. Everybody was afraid of looking unpatriotic, even the MSM. The reporters were were doggedly digging up and writing the counter-evidence worked for Knight-Ridder and were virtually ignored.

Conservatives like to defend Bush by saying that everybody else also believed there were WMD, but that's not really true. The information was there, it was just ignored.


SteveL: Well, thank you for sharing!
Wrong, but thank you for sharing anyway!


Anne
Al Qaida is a Sunni organization whose Iraqi wannabees come from Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Syria and disaffected Sunni Bathists. The Iranians are Shiites and hate the Sunni. The Iranians are supporting their Shiite brethren who are attacking their Sunni fellow citizens.

It is indeed primarily a civil war.

our "cause"
"Reid's statement only makes sense if he's arguing our cause is unjust, and he must be called on this in the strongest terms."

Then you will lose.

Because I can tell you what the root cause of the Iraq War was: It was a cockamamie neo-conservative crackpot theory that claimed that the rise of Islamic radicalism was just a front for the ambitions of Assad (Syria), Saddam (Iraq), and Arafat (PLO). Not Iran, not Saudi Arabia, not even al-Qaeda.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.753/article_detail.asp

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/netanyahu.htm

Crackpot academicians like Laurie Mylroie blamed the 1993 WTC bombing on Saddam. She even blamed the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing on Saddam!

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0312.bergen.html

And these crackpots managed to sell such men as Wolfowitz and Perle on their ideas.

So when 9-11 happened, less than one week later, Wolfowitz was already arguing that it "proved" we needed to take out Saddam.

This sorry story is NOT going to make the Bush Administration look good. It's lucky for Bush that many Democrats are as ignorant of it as the GOP is.

jo j, you are totally wrong
No, we do not get orgasmic seeing your posts. We actually are saddened that so many of you liberals just don't get it. Nothing new there I suppose, just more hate America, useful idiot stuff.

Exactly how long did it take our nation to get a workable Constitution? Come up with the correct answer and you win a prize; a diploma that states you may be a liberal, but not the dumbest one on the block.

Jo J
See here it is in a nutshell. When you plant a tree seed, is the tree going to grow into a tall tree overnight? Of course not it's going to take time. We've planted the seeds of democracy in Iraq. The roots need to grow before the tree sprouts up. Yes there's going to be bumps along the way just as there are bumps being made in Iraq. But eventually the tree will grow and the roots will be firmly in place. Just like in Iraq.

Jo j: Here you go. Good luck! Pt.2
"Are the dumbos pushing to have the troops come home before the job is done? Yes!"

"It seems to me that there are a growing number of Republicans who want to get out as well."

Again, some RINOs like Warner, etc. But on the whole, IF you bother to do some real investigating over and beyond what you hear on the MSM, you'll find things differently.

Actually, it's more the dumbo mantra, "all or nothing, zero-sum?"

You are right, "Iraq is not a football game, where the winner gets the high score." The stakes are MUCH higher, such as stabilizing the ME and mitigating the al qaeda threat to US ALL...including YOU!

Why would you ask me to include a picture of "win?" This is war, and a struggle that no one can put a picture to... JUST AS no one can put a certain end date to. THAT is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard...

“I'm really curious as to how you see this big "win" in Iraq. What will it look like? Also, I'm sure you can include a picture of how the various sunni-shiite-Kurdish factions will work out their problems.”

The dumbos would like to believe that this is all about a civil war, when in fact, Iran is pushing al qaeda across the border by the droves. But of course, you’d rather believe that it’s just a civil war.

Jo j: Here you go. Good luck! Pt.1
"Did the dumbos criticize the Admin because we didn't send enough troops in initially? YES!"

"... criticism initially came from people on the Rep-hawk side, like Powell and Shinseki, who called for many more troops and was fired for it."

That was from a military strategic standpoint... NOT a political standpoint, and that's what we're talking about... the politicizing of Iraq and the WOT.

"Did the dumbos criticize the Admin when they sent in more? YES!"

"Some did. So did many Republicans. After almost 5 years of deteriorating conditions, there were people on both sides who weren't getting the thrill of daily Iraqi and US deaths that you apparently were."

Yeah, some RINOs... But again, we're talking about the dumbos and politicizing the war.

"Did the rabid rodent Reid, et al, call Petraeus a liar after he first addressed Congress? YES!"

"I'm sure, since you're so intelligent, you can provide the exact quote."

Look it up! You do know how to "google" don't you? And that old ploy... "provide quotes." Give me a break. If you can't google, check out some of the columns right here on TH. Geeze!

Jo J writes
The objective (the third or fourth objective, I they've changed so many times I don't know which one this was) was to place a democracy in Iraq "that would spread around the middle east." After 5 years and a disintigrating Iraqi parliament, do you think there might be a problem with this?

I take it your not a history major or were you asleep during history class.

Did you think something like this was going to happen overnight? I seem to recall that our present day constitution wasn't ratified until 1789. From the day of our independece until our contstitution was ratified lets see (doing the math here) thats 13 years!! And 7 years of that from 1776-1783 was fighting a war.. There's an old say "Good things come to those who wait"




Anne
Yeah, C'mon. Pretend you're at one of your scintillating dinner parties.

Anne-Icedog-SSGTRET-Georgetwin--Bman1
Want another one..This one is a doozy.
Read DogJudge post at 12:44 Lisa de Pasquale
Second paragraph last line.

Anne
Still waiting for your anser to my questions.

Are you up to it, or is name-calling the best you can do?

Perhaps it is a cover to hide the fact that you don't have any original thoughts of your own.

Poor you.

Georgetwin
Yes, you certainly cleaned my clock.

Georgetwin: Thanks. :-)

You do a fair amount of "clock cleaning" yourself! :-)

The funny things is, we all seem to be able to do it WHILE we're doing something else. I'm working from home today, so I've got two laptops going at the same time... and still it's a piece of cake!!!! LOL

Anne-Icedog-SSGTRET-SheepDog-Bman1
If you want a REVEALING GLIMPSE into THE LIBERAL MINDSET, read Burt Prelutsky’s column, and then check out my post on Burt Prelutsky’s column and Uber’s Response.

Anne
These Liberals are ALWAYS surprised that their opinions are met with varying degrees on Hostility/Disagreement on a CONSERVATIVE WEBSITE!

DUH!

If they find TownHall so distasteful, THE DOOR SWINGS BOTH WAYS!

You Cleaned his clock!

Anne
"Did the dumbos criticize the Admin because we didn't send enough troops in initially? YES!"

Actually, the criticism initially came from people on the Rep-hawk side, like Powell and Shinseki, who called for many more troops and was fired for it.

"Did the dumbos criticize the Admin when they sent in more? YES!"

Some did. So did many Republicans. After almost 5 years of deteriorating conditions, there were people on both sides who weren't getting the thrill of daily Iraqi and US deaths that you apparently were.

"Did the rabid rodent Reid, et al, call Petraeus a liar after he first addressed Congress? YES!"

I'm sure, since you're so intelligent, you can provide the exact quote.

"Are the dumbos pushing to have the troops come home before the job is done? Yes!"

It seems to me that there are a growing number of Republicans who want to get out as well. Is it possible for you to comprehend things in a way that isn't all or nothing, zero-sum?

I hate to tell you this, but Iraq is not a football game, where the winner gets the high score. The objective (the third or fourth objective, I they've changed so many times I don't know which one this was) was to place a democracy in Iraq "that would spread around the middle east." After 5 years and a disintigrating Iraqi parliament, do you think there might be a problem with this?

I'm really curious as to how you see this big "win" in Iraq. What will it look like? Also, I'm sure you can include a picture of how the various sunni-shiite-Kurdish factions will work out their problems.

C'mon, Anne, don't be afraid to put your money where your mouth is.



Adapters connected,DC voltage...
...that only is supplied juice, cojones, by use of a transformer, or a battery. Direct current powered by being plugged into a main source of energy, from batteries with limited life, or from batteries recharge by the main source of energy. To put it in simple terms, the machine cannot run, or act on its own, without a reliable, constant, source of energy. I watch some of those rechargable batteries, here on Townhall. Along with the shortcuts they post, from the machine using transformers. You've seen 'um before. Those bulky, weighted, transformers, with an interior tightly woven together. A unit used to reduce, and limit, the wave of powerful energy produced by the main generator. They get pretty hot when the machine is under constant pressure, has it spins away. Gets kind of frustrating, going around, and unplugging those transformers before they burn out. But I realize it's our duty, has the generators owners, to allow every individual machine its right to run.

SSGTRET
Worked with the Marines many times during my time in the AF. Marine pilots played aggressor roles during some of our Operational exercises. No service celebrates their birthday like the Marine Corp does...Semper Fi...

Sheepdog: Excellent Point!!!!!!


Bet Joj and the dumbocrats won't address that either!!!



Bman1: Bet you $.25 that Joj won't

admitt that I'm right in my 12:08PM post!!!



Rightstuff
I find it ironic that the left and some religious conservatives will attack Mitt Rommney becuase he is Mormon. I find it ironic that nobody attacks Harry Reid about his faith (He is a Mormon also)

Jo j: Well see my 12:08PM post.

Are my points not TRUE?????

Yes, I believe they are.


Jo j: ......And for the record...
INTELLIGENT people recognize that I AM very intelligent and well informed. :-)







Joj... Actually, I DO get invited to

a LOT of dinner parties. :-)



anne
"There is no way that any dumnbo could recognize eloquence and intellectual skills if they were hit in the head with them... Not even when we try to dumb it down for them."

I'll bet you're just as beautiful on the outside as you are on the inside.

Anne
Youre so articulate and clever.

I'll bet you get invited to every dinner party in town.

Just one more thing
What's really clear, and you can't hide it, is that although the kind of conservatives who post here don't really understand what "liberal" means except in bumper-sticker phrases which they pass around like candy, they love them for providing an imaginary enemy, something to hate. For alot of people hate and rage feel good, it's an emotional rush. I suspect you come to these threads for a regular adrenyline fix and are thrilled when someone presents a different point of view because then you can bring out your list of names and let go, a sort of orgasmic experience like sneezing.

Have at it!

Georgetwin, Icedog etc.

Joj can't seem to understand exactly why it's impossible to have a debate or discussion with anyone who doesn't SEE THE POINT AT HAND...

Did the dumbos criticize the Admin because we didn't send enough troops in initially? YES!

Did the dumbos criticize the Admin when they sent in more? YES!

Did the rabid rodent Reid, et al, call Petraeus a liar after he first addressed Congress? YES!

Are the dumbos pushing to have the troops come home before the job is done? Yes!

There is no way that any dumnbo could recognize eloquence and intellectual skills if they were hit in the head with them... Not even when we try to dumb it down for them.






Also
You are nothing if not predictable, true-to-the-type TH conservatives.

If the other conservatives, the ones who are actually interested in discussing ideas instead of kissing each other up with cheap slogans ever get a foothold this blog, it will have some meaning.

"TIl then, nastiness rules.

Vietnam-Iraq
Does anyone remember the "Gulf of Tonkin" incident?
I do.
There was no trumped up evidence prior to Iraq II.
The President quoted the British intelligence report. The British have never recanted from that report.
One great difference-in no possible way were the North Vietnamese going to follow us home. There is every reason to believe that al Qaeda will follow us home. After all, they came here before we went into Iraq and even before we went into Afghanistan.
They started it in 1979 and have persisted up to the present.

Bman & Icedog: Funny isn't it....

Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't that the way it's gone with the libs...?

The Admin. does one thing and the dumbocrats complain and criticize... then the Admin. does something else, and the dumbocrats criticize...

Not enought troops... should have sent more troops sooner...surge won't work...Patraeus is lying...bring the troops home....

And, one of my favorites is the MSM/dumbocrats failure to acknowledge the Iraqis risking their lives to VOTE... multiple times... But noooo, that's not good enough....


Every lib/dumbo poster just proves my point.....





Georgetwin, Icedog etc.
It's always so nice to visit TH and see so many examples of people who are able to put aside their free-floating rage in an attempt to have any kind of discussion.

No wonder you admire Anne's eloquence and intellectual skills - I can see you have high standards.

B-man
"It is people like you that, as soon as a car bomb or some type of suicide bombing happens in the US, you will be screaming for help"

Well, after Katrina I will not be so stupid as to count on any kind of government help, especially the army, which will probably still be in Iraq, helping Iraqis (as they were then).

And it's clear also, that from your post I won't be able to count on Christians, Conservatives, Republicans, or other so-called "compassionate" Americans. Especially if tax dollars are involved, which you all resent to egin with, but most especially if you see the "D" sticker on my bumper and realize that I (horrors) have differing opinions from you, which I realize in your eyes makes me a really, really evil person who would just as soon eat your babies as tie my shoelaces.


Typical Liberals
Screeching that Vietnam is invalid when Mr. Theresa Kerry and every Drug-Addled, Baby Boomer, Hippie-Leftover, Police State Liberal, Democrat has been screeching it for YEARS!

Have They No Shame?

OOPS! I forgot! Tou have to have Ethics/Morals to feel shame. That leaves The Drug-Addled, Baby Boomer, Hippie-Leftover, Police State Liberal, Democrats OUT!

Now THIS is Hillarious!!!
no pun intended..lol


Bman1 states:

"And if a Democrat is elected in Nov 08 you will looking back at this moment in time and wishing there was someone like BUSH in office."

roflmao...tooo darn funny


jo j
You have no need to worry, there is no requirement to be over the age of twelve (physically or mentally) to post here....so feel free to spew away (at least until school starts)

A new rule?
Isn't there some kind of requirement that posters hould be over he age of twelve, both emotionally and chronologically?

Well, maybe when school starts.

Anne
Poster like you give conservatives a bad name. It convinces articulate people that conservatives don't know how to do anything but conjure stupid generalizations and bumper-sticker slogans, make up stupid names, and never have real idea that contributes to anything except childish, schoolyard name calling.

Smity
"Iraq is not about 9/11. It is about preempting future terror attacks against us,"

That's what the invasion of Afghanistan was about, remember? Remember Afghanistan?

If your assessment were correct, then we have should have nothing to fear anymore from terrorist attacks -

As for Limbaughs accusation of "moving the goalpost" I suggest you fgo over Bush's speeches from the last 5 years - that goalpost for objectives has been moved so many times it's in pieces anyway.

It's a "no-win" with the Dumbocrats!

They criticized Pres. Bush, Rumsfeld, and Cheney because we didn't have enough troops in the beginning, and now they want to withdraw many of the ones we have...

Then that rabid rodent Reid called Petraeus a liar when Petraeus testified before Congress the last time..

Oh yeah, I forgot. It's the dumbocrats. They never make any sense...



WW II Veterans
The Greatest Generation [which included my Dad Pearl Harbor Dec 7 ,1941]has forfeited their title because of unwavering stupidity in supporting the War in Iraq.SUPPORT the troops by BRINGING THEM HOME from a country which does have the brains or guts to help themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Connective Matrix of Sept. 11th !!
September 11th has a Connective Matrix and that is Offensive Jihad. Offensive Jihad is the Islamic umma's and ulema's Koranic teaching of Allah Most High through The Prophet Muhammah's sunna that Islam must come to dominate the whole World, because Islam is not only and sole True Religion but that all other religions must not be allowed to exist. Thus Allah has commanded all Muslims, as slaves of Allah, to invite all infidels to accept Islam and submit, or if that invitation is merely declined, then an offense has been commited by that infidel, who then must die "by the Sword". If that infidel happens to be a Jew or Christian, then dhimmi status may apply (pay the jizya and submit to daily humiliation). Offensive Jihad is what connects Sept. 11th as the connective matrix to all that followed in its wake. Islamists are not shy in announcing that Islam must Dominate all The World, and that is so because Allah Most High wills it !! WE infidels only stand in their way, many of us accept that responsibility and are marked for Submission or Death. Secularist Lib-Leftists are likewise marked for Submission or Death--they just want to hide from that fact. Dear Friends, I implore you to buy and read the very words of Osama bin Ladin and Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri which plainly say exactly what I have summarized above. Mr. Raymond Ibrahim has merely translated their essays in "The Al Qaeda Reader". J. B. R.

Do you want the Truth
If the American People really knew the truth, they would be in support of the Iraqi War. However, they don't know the truth. They are fed a pack of lies from the MSM & from the Demonrats in Washington and elsewhere to support a bias political agenda. The Truth is that we are at war with a Islamic Extremist Regime who will do anything to kill innocents and children. They want to impose their will and religion on all. They want Global Domination and have admitted such. Demonrats are not qualified to lead this nation or any nation based upon their actions, unless it is a land of Socialism & Communism which is where they have be leading this Country. In Karl Marx's handbook, it states that it is required to say or do whatever it takes to get in control, including lying, stealing, cheating, & yes killing those who oppose them. The Demonrats actions in Congress alone shows anyone their true Political Position. They refuse to do what is needed to make America Oil Independent, they attack the first & second admentments repeatedly, they have ursurped the legislative and executive branches by their judicial activism, and alot more. They are responsible for the decay and will be responsible for America's downfall. You Demonrats should be proud of what I don't know, but you cannot be proud as True Americans, because a true American won't accept Socialism & Communism. A True American demands Freedom.

SSGTRET
The active duty E-6 hereby grants you normal weekend liberty commencing upon the completion of your duties today.

BTW, when I retire, I'll be one month short of being 45 myself...FEB 2010. Come on by the Swamp and get entertained.

disputing the left
Robert, SVN did fall 2 years after our troops left. That is true. What you fail to note is that they held off the NVA until Teddythedrunk (D-Chappaquiddick) pushed through legislation which forbade the US from assisting SVN in any military way, whether it be supplies or air cover. When the rug was pulled out from under SVN, the NVA attacked our now-defenseless ally. Let the killing fields and re-education camps begin! Now Teddythedrunk (D-Chappaquiddick) wants to do it again to another ally, making sure that the US is never seen as an honorable ally to any other nation, EVER.

Imitation Captain America, the USA was OBLIGED under international law to reform the Desert Storm Coalition and remove Saddam's government from power when Saddam started breaking the terms of the 1991 cease-fire accords. $lick Willie had the chance to do it, and do it right, when he was in office. That would have actually gotten him some support and respect from conservatives. Then again, upholding the law was never a strong point of Willie and his master, Hitlery!

Harry Reid
Mr. Limbaugh, thank you for featuring Harry Reid. He is indeed a sick man, and he took Tom Daschle's place very well. I'm just so sorry we couldn't get the coward defeated during his last election. I have suggested to him numerous times that he seek psychiatric help, to no avail. He is doing his best to get the US defeated in this Iraq action, and he doesn't care if he appears to be psychiatrically deranged. Keep up the good work.

It's a Failure
Just read the latest reports on Iraq and the dems may be right. After 4 years, we still don't have one Chucky Cheese in the entire country. Obviously, the whole mission has been a failure.

Warren, didn't "THE JEWS" cause the Vietnam War?....you're slipping.

Rocky Jones
It is you who have no sense of history, starting with the fact that the "killing fields" were not in South Vietnam, but in Cambodia under the reign of Pol Pot. Also, if John Kennedy had not greenlighted the murder of the South Vietnam ruler before the wat began in earnest, the government there could have been stabilized.

The Vietnam comparisons were apropriate, if for no other reason than that the left has been calling this a new Vietnam since the decision was made ot go into Iraq. After years of screaming that this is Vietnam redux, they now want to be OFFENDED by the President's comparison? What a bunch of hypocritical morons!

Political Progress
in Iraq is directly proportionate to the security in Iraq. The latter must proceed the former. It amazes me that the disingenuous Democrats use "we" regarding the surge strategy's success but continue to use "Bush" regarding everythig else. It truly is not too strong an accusation to call the defeatist Democrats "traitors" that want to emulate the Democratic Congress of 1973 that virtually guaranteed a bloodbath. But, the moral relativistic Democrats sleep well at night when the Left perpetrates the slaughter.

Predictions?
This is what I see coming. Anything I've left out?

1) Petraeus's report will be leaked to the DNC and Pelosi et al.

2) Any negatives in the report will be seized upon by the MSM and Obama, Hillary, Levin, Biden, and for good measure maybe even Warner, Specter and other "moderates" trying to pander before next year's elections.

3) Hillary and friends will continue to call for the ouster of the freely-elected Al Maliki, nevermind the hypocrisy of decrying our prior "meddling" in Vietnamese politics yet publicly calling for the same in Iraq.

limbaugh: CONVINCE The American Public..
Mr. Limbaugh, you and the repubs/cons that back Prez Bush on his Iraq policies and obessesed with "winning" in Iraq, have a much bigger problem that Democratic politicians who are basically representing the anti-war viewpoints and postitions of their base constituents.

Your biggest problem is convincing the vast majority of the american public, who are clearly against the Iraq War, Prez Bush's prosecution of it and want it ended as soon as possible, that Gen.Petreus so called "military successes" of too little to late are moving in the direction of ending this war, which they are not.

As long as Prez Bush continues to "stay the course until victory is won", he is defying the will of the american public and that is tantamount to political suicide for the republican party come election year 2008.
It President Bush doesnt start withdrawing american troops & bring this iraq war debacle to a conclusion by Prez election 2008. the american people will elect a democratic president and congress that will. that is a simple fact people like david limbaugh dont want to confront.

Precipitous withdrawal
If Bill Clinton hadn't prematurely withdrawn troops from Somalia, Osama wouldn't have scored a huge propaganda victory.

And if he hadn't withdrawn too soon himself, he wouldn't have left a stain on a blue dress.

Expound Truth
Great post--You can also add that it doesn't matter to the dems what the "machine" produces as long as it limps along making lots of noise and gussles oil (money) like a sailor gussle rum (Ted Kennedy and whiskey)!

pot calling the kettle black

Considering their own approval rating of 18%, any American Congressman who would complain about the lack of progress made by the Iraqi gov't. has cojones the size of grapefruits

Expound Truth & SSGTRET
Expound Truth -- Great metaphor!


SSGTRET -- "Dismissed, Sergeant!"

Take your weekend "liberty"!

THE PARTY of ADAPTORS.
__This is not a difficult one to figure out. Every human works to secure possessions enabling lifes needs. They use the tools at hand, forged, and designed, according to the labor that secures those possession. Everyone uses the tools, in their inventory, to create results which have proven to be beneficial. One only needs to look in the toolbox of the left, to find out how they labor, and the tools they use. In the fall of 2001, they moved rapidly to recollect all the tools they had thrown out. Tools the left figured were no longer of use, so they pitched them out. Speculating it would lighten the load, and make room for tools of their choice. After the recollection of these tools, the left is now burdened with an overloaded toolbox. Tools of individual choice, to secure personal possession, and the original tools securing this Republics possessions. It would be comical, except for the fact it is distressing, as we watch them search that toolbox for the proper tools. Running this way, and that way, putting temporary patches on the various machines, built according to their passions. Then running back to the energy source, and searching through their toolbox for the various adaptor plugs, needed to keep their machines running.

"True Captain America" ?? Freakish !!
Al Qaeda provides suicide-bombers in Iraq and kills both Shiites and Sunnis to foment events that freaks named "true captain america" can call "civil war". Iran, next to Iraq, supplies Al Qaeda and its minions with superIEDs and Lib-Leftists can't connect-the-dots? Osama bin Ladin and Ayman al-Zawahiri broadcast that Iraq is the central-front and "dupes of Progressism" can't see Islamists in Offensive Jihad because blinded by Hate-for-America. Our Great Nation liberates 50,000,000 Muslims in Iraq and Afganistan, which then hold free-elections, and Move-On types want Defeat and Surrender and Humiliation for the LIBERATORS !! Then, these "anti-war" dingbats want to take away our own voting-rights. WE SEE YOU FREAKS IN THERE !! J.B.R. "The Al Qaeda Reader" by Raymond Ibrahim will cure your delusions.

Here are your questons rockhead
First, if that nappy Ho Chi Minh was such a great humanitarian, why did he immediately after taking power confiscate all privately held land, execute the rightful owners, and force city dwellers at pain of death to move to the country and become communal farmers? Second, if the Americans are, as you claim, the consummate evil entity on earth, why were more people slaughtered after our troops left than in the entire time they were there? I won't even mention the VC executions of S VietNameese civilians or their penchant for loading a toddler's diapers with C4, pointing them towards a GI and telling them "He has candy for you". The Ky regime was corrupt for sure, but the atrocities commited by the NVA,VC and supporters including a certain Mr Kerry and Ms Fonda, make the worst they did pale in comparison.

true captain america
true captain america is a mental midget; it's fitting you'd take a comic book moniker.

Q. Why were U.S troops on god-forsaken Kwajalein Atoll in the Pacific during WWII.

A. Because we found Japs there - who needed killing.

BTW: We DIDN'T have to kill ALL the Japanese/Germans in WWII - just enough of them, so the one's left got the message - WE WERE SERIOUS.

Oops
"our" should be "out". Too quick on the "post" button.

"True" Captain America
I see you have had to change your nom de guerre again. There out to be a rule preventing those people who demonstrate time and again their anti-Americanism from using the name in their handle.

I know this is getting tiresome repeating the same talking points over and over -- just as it is pointing our the obvious fictions, but, for the sake of those who may be new to Townhall, I'd ask "TCA" to provide a link to President Bush's exact quote where he said Iraq was responsible for 9/11.

Now -- we can all wait until pigs fly while "TCA" searches for that which he will never find.

Jackass...

true captain america
Iraq is not about 9/11. It is about preempting future terror attacks against us, a right we truly have and need to exercise in the face of this determined enemy.

Rejecting Warren Small's Propaganda.
All that hot-air from a rank-amateur, Warren Small--he read it from "the jerk of the world"--Howard Zinn. Noam Chomsky is your hero, Small. You don't have the slightest clue--you weren't there and you didn't fight, just like now when you stand on the sidelines and carp. The South Vietnamese had the same rights to our Great Nation's help exactly as we saved South Korea (hear from you on N. Korea, Warren??)..and as we saved West Germany. Lib-Leftests who jabber about factoring-in the Collapse of Communism (except in US academia) on Vietnam, are the same pukes harping against Iraq without considering Sept. 11, 2001 !! Read: " The Al Qaeda Reader" by Raymond Ibrahim, Warren(then get back to us). J.B.R.

The Democrat's betrayal
As surely as the Shiites wish to overcome the Sunnis to control Iraq, the Democrats are doing the same to overcome the Republicans to control the USA. Both the Shiites and Democrats are political insurgencies, and both betray the National Interest to favor their socio/political objectives to be in command of “the head of State”. Is this democracy in action? No, it is a form of treachery, where the Nation’s interest is subordinated to that of the political party’s.

Oops
Should have been "hands" not "nads". You are right annthem, communists don't have any.

Sorry.
Couldn't resist. Seriously, I don't think that the slaughter of millions faze the left in the slightest...as long as the right people do the killing.

When communists slaughter people, the left maintains that it was for the greater good. Freedom is poison to the left, better to murder freedom-loving troublemakers. Sheep are easier to enslave.

Hard Thought...
"murder at the nads of the communists."

Communists haven't any nads. They are pathetic sheeple.

Talking to an Anti-War
liberal who claimed that helping end the Viet Nam war was one of the highlights of her youth, I asked about the killing fields, boat people and reeducation camps and if they made her feel guilty.

She had no answer.

So I asked if she felt proud that she helped take away the shield that would have protected them from murder at the nads of the communists.

She stated all she wanted to do was stop the war.

I pointed out she and all her other anti-war friends were personally responsible for the millions killed by the communists.

She had no answer.

Actions have consequences.

Keep up the demand to pull our soldiers out of Iraq and if that happens and the awful genocide happens, you will be morally responsible for the deaths of thousands.

Sleep well.

Good
article, Limbaugh. It is amusing to watch the phony outrage of the left when W made the Vietnam comparison when they've been making Vietnam comparisons all along.
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