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Tuesday, August 07, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Social Liberals Long Shots for GOP Nomination
by David Limbaugh
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For the longest time I have believed -- and continue to believe -- Republicans will not nominate a social liberal as their presidential candidate, but even more so that if they do, they will severely handicap themselves in the general election.

The Washington Times reports that some Republican Party officials are concerned their party is drifting away from social conservatism in anticipation of the 2008 election. One RNC member said, in effect, that it would be electoral suicide for the GOP to nominate a pro-choice and pro-homosexual marriage presidential candidate.

Another member (not surprisingly, from the Northeast), said the party is drifting away from social conservatism but seemed to be pleased with the development. Robert Manning said, "There's an awareness among the national committee that the issues which are of dominant importance to a broad section of voters are tending toward national security and economics and less the social-religious issues that were dominant in prior campaigns."

But Manning's money quote was, "If the party has its headlights on, it responds to issues that concern a majority of voters. That's how you craft successful platforms, and that's what candidates build successful candidacies around."

Manning, like most GOP "moderates," is promoting the exact wrong formula for GOP electoral success. A vibrant, contagious, successful GOP is not reactive, as Manning suggests, nor a dog that allows itself to be wagged by its tail.

Moderate and liberal Republicans have long argued that the key to GOP success is to "moderate" its positions, which means adopting social liberalism to appeal to the so-called broad center.

But the most successful Republican coalition in ages was that built by Ronald Reagan, a pro-active, unapologetic economic, social and foreign policy conservative. He did not build his coalition by diluting his principles, but by articulating them without compromise or filter.

For those who might have forgotten, the mainstream media, which was immeasurably more powerful at the time of Reagan's rise, tagged Reagan as a dangerous extremist. They said his tax-cutting policies would bankrupt America, his social policies would send women to the back allies for abortions, and he would ignite World War III with the Soviet Union.

The GOP social liberal who urges the party leftward in the name of sound strategic analysis is allowing his own policy preferences to skew his thinking. For if he truly understood history or the pulse of the conservative movement that still drives the GOP, he would see the folly of his prescriptions for the party.

Those GOP "moderates" can't seem to get past their own belief that pro-life conservatives are indeed extreme and so assume it will be easy for Democrats to paint them as such in the election. But most Americans are less likely to view those defending innocent life as extreme than those defending its extermination in the name of women's rights. They are less apt to consider the championship of traditional marriage as extreme than forcing society to sanction, even celebrate homosexual unions.

Interestingly, Democrats instinctively understand the awesome power of social conservatives -- they call them values voters. That's why for the last three or four years we've seen stories every other month or so about the Democrats' "new" efforts to woo values voters. That's also among the reasons those same Democrats have made such a concerted effort to shut out Christian conservatives from the public square under the cover of a church-state separation crusade.

No matter what the polls now show, I believe social liberals like Rudy Giuliani are long shots for the GOP nomination. Even promises to appoint originalist judges won't likely mollify the conservative base, because if you are pro-choice, it's doubtful you strongly believe Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided or that you'll be passionate about overturning it. You'll also be less inclined to disagree with the left's expansive view of the Establishment Clause that effectively suppresses religious liberty in the name of protecting it.

Much of Mitt Romney's difficulties with the base can be traced to its unease with his flip-flop on the life issue. It's not that the base is unforgiving concerning his past views, but that it is not sure his "conversion" is authentic. With the base, trust is as important as the underlying issues.

I admit I'm less certain than I was before 9/11 that it would be virtually impossible for a social liberal to capture the GOP nomination. But "virtually impossible" has only been upgraded to "highly unlikely."

To argue it's more important to have a strong leader in the war on terror than one who will stand up for traditional values is to present a false choice. There are a number of capable, credible and electable candidates out there who are "right" across the spectrum.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Traditional values
You mean like your brother, thrice divorced and childless? Or Ann Coulter, middle-aged, never married, childless. Newt?

You have some nads to question Mitt Romney's traditional values, since he's been happily married to one woman and raised wonderful children in a clean, healthy environment.
It's probably the Mormon thing. Just not your kinda Christian, right?

Unethical
I have been analyzing the methods of some of the polling firms, especially the ones commissioned by media.

Most of them do 4 things that distort the results in a way that facilitate the construction of a reality that suits the media's agenda.

1. They employ loose likely voter screens. That overstates the results of liberal and moderates.

2. They tend to treat Independents (Republican leaners)as Republicans. The leaners' tends to be more liberal than actual Republican voters. That overstates results from liberals and moderates. In many states Independents can not vote in the primaries but they are counted anyway, skewing the results.

3. They weight their raw samples to census data. In a general election that creates some bias. In a Republican primary that is similar to Enron accounting. The racial profile of actual Republican primary voters is not even remotely close to the census profile. It dramatically overstates preferences of minorities.

4. They focus on a mythical national primary that does not exist.

Many of them do the above with full knowledge of the distortion. It is highly unethical. The media, both left and right are trying to construct a self fulfilling prophecy that fits their agenda.

Individual polls have wildly different results depending on the distortions that they are creating. The differences are not due to sampling errors. They are deliberate methodological skews. They and their media clients know that the skewed results will be reported and believed as the "truth" in terms of who is ahead and likely to win. They know they are deceiving the public into thinking that certain candidates have more support than they actually do among actual voters who decide the eventual winners. It is highly unethical.

Do not be surprised when Rudy and McCain do not do as well as many of the polls indicate that they should. If they do, it is because the media has been able to create a self fulfilling band wagon effect.

The Reagan Coalition
As I keep posting, if social conservatives see their choices as Rudy (or Romney) vs. Hillary, they'll stay home in disgust. That's all that has to happen to hand the presidency to Hillary.

When the GOP "moderated" its stands on spending and illegal immigration, the result in 2006 was a depressed base and consequently the loss of both houses of Congress. But if the GOP goes the other direction and rediscovers its fiscal principles while flipping off social conservatives, the result will be the same. Social conservatives, fiscal conservatives, and all-around conservatives (like me) need each other to win general elections. If you fiscal conservatives/social liberals don't mind handing the election to Hillary or one of the other socialists so they can take more of your money to hand out to less productive people, then by all means try to nominate Rudy or Romney. You have to decide which is more important to you: the economy and defense or social issues. I guarantee you will not get both.

And all-around conservatives need to wake up and drop their support for Rudy, which is based largely on the notion that he's got the best chance of winning the general election. As David pointed out, Reagan was conservative across the board, and was labeled an extremist, yet he won two landslide victories. No one has convinced me that Hunter or Tancredo (the two most faithfully conservative candidates on every issue) cannot beat Hillary. Duncan Hunter won his first election in a district where Dems outnumbered Repubs 2-1. In California! Don't let the MSM push the least conservative candidates on you by intimidating you into believing that only Rudy can win. The opposite is more likely.

I'd like to see David Limbaugh soon endorse one of the candidates - preferably Tancredo or Hunter, but there are a few others with whom I have only minor disagreements.

The bar
So, what I get from this article is that in order to be a social conservative, you have to oppose abortion(in any circumstance?) and oppose homosexual marriage.

That's it?

Adultery, drug addiction, eschewing replenishing the earth are OK?

Lestat
How is Romney not a social conservative?

Pancho
David is saying that the abortion and homosexual "marriage" issues are sufficient to turn away many social conservatives. He never attempted or suggested an exclusive definition of social conservatism.

Call them whatever you want. There are many voters for whom rescuing innocent lives from abortion is the most important issue. As much as I've tried to get my mother interested in other issues, she votes almost entirely on the abortion issue. The bottom line is that the GOP cannot nominate a pro-choice candidate and expect to win the presidency. If you add the wrong side of the gay "marriage" issue, it's just more of a landslide for Hillary.

Pancho
I think David said it well.

"Much of Mitt Romney's difficulties with the base can be traced to its unease with his flip-flop on the life issue. It's not that the base is unforgiving concerning his past views, but that it is not sure his "conversion" is authentic."

Romney's current positions are (generally) socially conservative - I don't question that. What bothers me is that he ran as a social liberal (or moderate) in Mass., then changed his views when he needed to appeal to social conservatives. Maybe it was authentic, maybe not. Even if I give him the benefit of the doubt, why would I support him over someone who has already proven himself for many years to be strongly pro-life, etc.? He wants to be the leader of our party and the face of conservatism, at least as far as the general public is concerned. I want to elect someone with stronger social conservative credentials than Romney has. And I consider gun control to be a social issue. Romney has been on the wrong side of that, too. He still supports an assault-rifle ban (he said so in the second debate). Why? So only the criminals and the gov't can have the best rifles? The 2nd Amendment is all about preserving our right to defend ourselves - from criminals/terrorists and from a tyrannical gov't.

Should I overlook these serious problems simply because Romney is slick and looks presidential?

No matter what Romney says now, he cannot run from his recent past. Conservatives have much better choices and we do not have to settle for an election-year convert.

brownback
If Brownback is such a big prolifer why does he attack Romney relentlessly and ignore Rudy? Rudy is openly prochoice and the front runner.

I have a hard time believing Brownback is really motivated by his prolife position. It looks a lot more like a religious crusade.

As far as I am concerned Romney has the best credentials on gay marriage. He treats gays with respect but is very apposed to gay marriage.

Yeah I know he said a lot of things running against Teddy. However, when the chips were down he fought hard in MA against gay marriage. He will come thru in the oval office on that issue.

Rudy won't. McCain won't support the marriage amendement. Who knows what Thompson really thinks much less what he will actually do. Besides the way he is handling his decision to run raises a lot of questions about his decision making.

Lestat
Limbaugh's and your analysis is right on regardless of what the kibitzing Robert et al may say. As I've noted in the recent past: conservatism wasn't beat in the last election. It was sappy, arrogant and corrupt republicanism that was beat. As you say, a Guiliani will cause conservatives to stay home in droves.

Also, when referring to the abortionists, call them what they are: pro abortionists. Get the word right out there - don't let them obfuscate their positions behind their dissembling language concoctions. Old Chinese proverb: calling a thing what it is is the beginning of wisdom.

Sheep
David Limbaugh is the Judas goat goat and all the self aggrandizing conservatives are the sheep.

Presidential power is greatest in the areas of defense, national safety, crime reduction, government reform and appointing conservative judges. The president has little more that "feel good" influence over all the nit picking that you sheep are hand wringing over in this discussion.

I lived the transformation that Rudy accomplished in the city that "was too complex for one man to govern."

He will deliver 95% of what you believe is good for our country now and the rest can be accomplished over time.

Keep up your "win the battle and lose the war" mentality and you can all feel good about your precious morality while Hillary reigns and we all go down the tubes.


the Reagan coalition is dead
"But the most successful Republican coalition in ages was that built by Ronald Reagan, a pro-active, unapologetic economic, social and foreign policy conservative."

But Bush has DESTROYED the Reagan coalition of 1980, and it cannot be put back together again before Bush leaves office in 2009.

In 1980, Reagan did not have to defend an unpopular REPUBLICAN incumbent in the White House. A Republican incumbent who had launched an unpopular no-win war and an immigration bill that has alienated the Republican base in the name of promoting free trade with Mexico. In fact, Reagan was running AGAINST the unpopular foreign and economic policies of the incumbent DEMOCRAT, Carter.

The GOP candidate in 2008, whoever he is, is going to have that albatross around his neck. Once he's nominated, then over and over he's going to be hammered on Iraq, immigration, etc., on whether he agrees with Bush or not. And even if he dodges the question, the impression will remain in the public mind.

Beyond that, the issue of immigration clearly split the GOP wide open, and probably doomed the candidacy of McCain, even though he came closest to appealing to all three types of conservatives, economic, social and foreign policy hawks.

for Lestat: so Bush lied again
Lestat writes: "There are many voters for whom rescuing innocent lives from abortion is the most important issue. As much as I've tried to get my mother interested in other issues, she votes almost entirely on the abortion issue."

So when Bush & Cheney, running for re-election in 2008, said that the War on Terror was the defining issue of our time and the key issue for our civilization, they were lying, weren't they?

They knew damn well that their own base didn't believe that, but they waved the War on Terror around as a way to appeal to moderate voters who might agree with Bush on fighting terrorism but who didn't agree with him on things like Federal funding for embryonic stem-cell research.

The GOP's stance in 2004 was: Even if you're pro-choice, even if you want the Federal Government to expand funding of embryonic stem cell research, please vote for Bush anyway because he's the right candidate to win the War on Terror. But the GOP never had the guts to ask their own base to set such priorities.

And so, faced with a race between Giuliani and Hillary, your mom just won't vote, eh? So much for the War on Terror being the defining issue of our time.

I think that BOTH the liberals and
some of the Republicans make far too much of the so called "social conservatives", or what is more commonly called "the religious right" by the MSM. I do think that there is a part of the Republican base who could be assigned to this category but I don't think they make up a very large percentage of the Republicans.

I think most people are like me on these issues. On abortion we look at it as a Constitutional travesty by a liberal court. It was a State issue before Roe and it should go back to being a State issue. As for things like "homosexual rights", these are viewed as another attempt to set up another privileged minority with yet another explosion in litigation. Another "jobs" program for lawyers with benefits for them and the homosexuals and additional costs for the rest of society.

All in all, social issues for me are buried under the more important constitutional issues, security issues, fiscal issues, and integrity issues.

Social Conservatives
"Social conservatism" is, like a lot of the labels used here, in the eye of the beholder. I am a social conservative because I'm against abortion, but a social liberal because I could care less about the marriage amendment (well, that's not true, the MA is stupid and not in the purview of the feds) The republicans will probably lose the presidential election in 2008 because of those who stay home because the candidate isn't 100% with them. The only chance the republicans have is if Hillary is nominated because, despite all the latest polls, she is a polarizing figure that many people may say they'll vote for but won't. However, if the "Social Conservatives" stay home because Romney or Guiliani is nominated, they might as well vote for her.
I'll find the best candidate (If Hillary is the Dem nominee, then it'll be whomever else is running whether Hunter, Thompson, Guiliani, Paul or Romney)who has the opportunity to win.

BG
BG, some surveys do something else - they equate "none" with "not sure" as in the single response "none/not sure." The media then runs with "The Republican voters don't like their candidates." Well, I may be undecided (not sure) as to which Republican candidate on the list I am voting for but it sure is going to be one of them.


Not certain that this is still going on. I have seen other polling results that indicate they do separate the "none" and "not sure" response choices.

Quite frankly
If you can't stand for your values, you can't stand for anything.

Even if it results in a loss, we should be putting up someone who's consistent with the party platform, not a RINO like Giuliani. I'll quite literally vote for any of the other 8 (9 counting Fred) candidates out there, but not him.

Nominating Giuliani will sound the death knell of the Republican party.

First Seek to Know then to Judge
Measure twice, cut once.

I feel it is two soon to decide, even though I am leaning for Mitt Romney. If another Candidates shows to be better, I am keeping my eyes open. I vote for principled and disciplined leaders as opposed to disorganized candidates who spend their time attacking the most impressive candidate’s performance.

"The wise change their minds, while fools never do." I am convinced that Mitt is pro-life and always has been. What happened in Mass. then?

Mitt’s faith believes in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law, so in Mass., his integrity was verified when he said he would not change the law as it stood. It was the law then; moreover, he did not allow the pro-choice people to broaden the law. Under the constitution, a representative must uphold the law, whether you agree or not. If we cannot persuade the people to a better way, it is wrong to force our views on others against their will, as “A man convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.” Mitt Romney in the public view goofed and is considered a flip-flopper. So check it out, and prove me wrong. You will be doing us all a favor, it we are here for the truth.

Romney showed his true colors when he would not allow them to strengthen the pro-choice law, or allow anything to pass that would affect any stage of human life.

MSM only quotes part of the sorry giving the impression of something, which creates uncertainty, the harbinger of ignorance, fear, and doubt; Just enough so as to get their way, because of our doubt, hoping we do not discover their deception.

Get all the facts. The most tail, tail, sign they are deceiving is the lack of sources with names of references and their broad emotional appeal. If we do our homework with an open mind, we will make the right choice. I believe after we have done this, as we pray about it, that we will make that right choice

I hope we do choose the best president for all of us.
A great message David.

Those Moderates
I think David made a good case. The GOP has had eight years of a "conservative" president who was not really conservative, and look where it got us. Spending tax payer's money like a drunken sailor and supporting a foreig invasion of our country does not a conservative make.

Whenever I hear anyone talk about "moderates" I always remember what a wise pastor of mine use to say. "Riding the fence doesn't get you anything but a butt full of splinters." In other words, pick a side. Get off on one side of the issue or the other, but don't try and straddle the middle. You only lose people's respect in the end.

A POX on so-called “POLLS ~
The results are FICTION.

BG writes about unethical poll-taking and falsified “results” which are reported (or OMITTED from published reports.) I agree with BG and will suggest another reason to ignore ALL POLLS unless they have been taken by personal interview (by ethical interviewers).

Ask yourself a few questions, and never mind whether you were educated in the wonders of “Statistics” and still buy lottery tickets.

What is the communication method of pollsters? Is the method by telephone? Between what hours are calls made, say from 9 am to 9 pm?

How many employed people are at home from 9 to 9?
How many home telephones have “Caller-ID” and are puposely left unanswered?
How many people have better things to do and refuse to spend time replying to pollsters?
How many people have abandoned land-line telephones (except for computers) & use only CELL PHONES?
How many people don’t follow politics and reply with anything they have heard on the MSmedia?
What proportion of responses are from home-makers, presumably women?
How many of their menfolk are MISSED OUT and would cancel the female vote?
How many people surveyed are retired?
How many are under voting age, but untruthful?
How many tell lies for a joke or no reason?
TELL ME NOW, why would you believe ANYTHING deduced from a POLL?

Another thing makes me wonder. What subliminal reason makes people choose such ID aliases as “Pancho” or “Peso Pete”? These names are off-putting to me and I think it is because I am interested first and foremost in the opinions of American patriots who put American interests first.


My problem with social conservatives...
... is their willingness to impose their social agenda at the federal level. They support the gay marriage amendment, a federal ban on drugs, and a federal ban on abortion, but when the feds come along and try to take the 10 commandments out of the town hall, they all of a sudden become big federalists. They sure as hell don't like it when the feds via Roe V. Wade impose abortion legalization on everybody.

We need to return legislation on social issues to the states where it belongs. That way, social conservatives can work within their state and local governments to push their agenda. At the local level, laws reflect the morality of the populace.

I'm thinkin I want to see more of...
Duncan Hunter. I'm a Fredneck- but it never hurts to have a back-up!

gee thanks!
So "social conservatives", i.e. narrow minded, one issue (abortion) voters, will give us Hillary as President if Giuliani, the only Republican candidate who can win a national election TODAY (this isn't the Reagan era when Carter and Mondale were running!!!), because they will stay at home "in droves" in a petty, temper tantrumed huff. Gee thanks, a-holes.

Blocking back
If Brownback is such a big prolifer why does he attack Romney relentlessly and ignore Rudy? Rudy is openly prochoice and the front runner.

I have a hard time believing Brownback is really motivated by his prolife position. It looks a lot more like a religious crusade against Romney.

A new article over at RealClear is suggesting that Rudy, McCain and possibly Thompson are trying to help Brownback and Huckabee in the straw poll.

I wonder if Brownback is really a blocking back for one or more of the other candidates?

What's In A Name
For NoMansLand

"Peso Pete" happened to be my call sign as an Aviator in the service of my country.

The truth is moderate Repubs
have very little chance of ever being elected. The only exception has been Bush and that is, IMHO, only because the Dems could only put up the Goracle and the Traitor as opposition. But if the GOP puts up Guiliani or Romney, the "values voters" will have no one to vote for and will stay home giving Hitlary the victory. Only an unabashed conservative that can state his case forcefully and intelligently can defeat any of the Dems. Vote for Fred! Ron Paul comes off as a bigger loon than Perot did.

buzzkat
Republican /= conservative

Limbaugh is Wrong
"because if you are pro-choice, it's doubtful you strongly believe Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided or that you'll be passionate about overturning it."

As a pro-choice republican, I can say unequivocally that Limbaugh is wrong -- Roe v Wade was wrongly decided, and it needs to be overturned.

Also, like every other pro-choice republican I know, I am personally pro-life and find it very sad that women would choose to terminate a life. For every woman I know who has had one it has been a traumatic experience tinged with sadness and regret.

But I am also old enough and realistic enough about the human experience to know that people will find themsleves in difficult positions and forced to make difficult choices. The draconian positions on the right and left on abortion are deaf, dumb, and blind to the realities that real people must face everyday.

I see no difference in the insensitive and entrenched positions of those on the religious right who seek to outlaw all abortion from the moment of conception, and those on the far-left who seek to legalize all abortion "on demand' without any restrictions whatsoever right up to birth.

That's why I support the position of Rudy that seeks to return the abortion issue to the states, and advocates legalized abortion that is restricted and acknowledges the reality that an abortion in the first few weeks is not the same as an abortion in the 2nd or third trimester -- acknowledges that abortion is not just about a "woman's right to choose what she does with her body" and husbands and parents have a right to be involved in the decision.

Rich L
You are simply wrong. Giuliani will pull in vastly more "moderates" than any other Republican candidate, especially in a race against Hillary. He can pull in states such as NY, PA, NJ, CT, MI, NH, and even CA. No other Republican candidate can do so, even though they are all eminently more qualified to be President than any of the Democrat clowns. I am extremely pi$$ed that the issue of abortion may decide a presidential race, especially in light of the fact that the abortion issue is NOT in the President's purview. "Social conservatives" of David Limbaugh's ilk, i.e. anti-abortion activists, are fond of reminiscing about Reagan and the good ol' days, yet they ignore the fact that Reagan himself paid only lip service to the issue.

Giuliani will appoint constructionists to the Supreme Court, Hillary won't. It's as simple as that.

Bowa
Kudos! Very well put! If true conservatism is defined as freedom and individualism, i.e. libertarianism, then both the Far Right and Far Left on the abortion issue must be resisted by TRUE conservatives.

It's all about the Court
"Giuliani will appoint constructionists to the Supreme Court, Hillary won't. It's as simple as that."

Buzzkat -- you nailed it.

Roe V Wade is tyranny
Its just tyranny that the Leftists AGREE with like Waco and Ruby Ridge so thats OK.

Clue for the clueless: When the Supreme court "makes up laws" its no different than a bunch of ruling Imams doing the same thing. They are telling you 'stop trying to make your own laws and listen to YOUR BETTERS'.

Murdering your child is a state issue and nowhere in the Constitution does it say otherwise.

More hypocrisy is Robert above criticizing Rush Limbaugh's personal life. I don't remember Rush running for public office, and besides the *change marriage* crowd tells us we SHOULDN'T criticize anyones personal relationships.

I guess that doesn't apply to Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh or Jeri Ryan.

oops
I meant Jeri Thompson

Future Challenges
We should remember that Reagan was first and foremost an economic and government conservative. That is his legacy. Smaller government, supporting the rights of states, and staying out of nation building. Social conservatism was left to the Supreme Court and to his appointments to that court.

The next president will have a series of issues handed to him. In Foreign Policy, he will be responsible for the next stage of policies concerning Iraq, and possibly winding down our commitments, and he will be responsible for Afghanistan - in a very real sense our forgotten war. Then, he must confront the fact that beginning this year, the baby boomers started to retire. The costs of social security, medicare, medicaid, and the Bush's drug bill are now beginning to ramp up to a point where we can no longer pay the bills. This will become the over-riding economic issue for this President. And finally, he will have to deal with immigration and our open borders.

That will fill the plate for the next four years - with little room for any other initiatives.

Whoever Republicans nominate - they better elect someone who has the administrative skills to deal with these issues. Social conservatism is important - but Presidents can do very little in this area other than nominate conservative justices.

divided
There is a new article over at RealClear that suggests that Rudy is helping Brownback and Huckabee in the straw poll. As long as Rudy can keep the conservatives divided he will be the front runner. If any of the minor candidates can survive the straw poll and continue to siphon off votes that helps Rudy.

Rudy is more vulnerable than most realize. His poll numbers are inaccurately inflated by over sampling and weighting independents, liberals and minorities who do not vote in Republican primaries.

It is time for the minor candidates to exit. If they stay in they help Rudy.

Demented and Sad, but Social
There is nothing conservative about the belief that the government has any business deciding how people can or should live. That is the domain of liberalism. If the GOP continues to embrace such an idealogy, it will die the death it so soundly deserves.

The fact that Ronald Reagan beat Jimmy Carter and Walter Mondale had far more to do with the shortcomings of the latter than anything to do with Reagan's philosophy.

If the GOP is smart...
If the GOP is smart they will nominate Congressman Ron Paul. Here are some reasons:

He appeals to true Conservative Republicans (like me.) There are still many of us out there. I run into them all the time.

He is generating excitement and gaining more support every day from young first-time voters.

He has supporters from the Libertarian party, The Constitution Party, The Green party, and even the Democratic party. The Libertarian party will not offer a Presidential candidate if Ron Paul gets the Republican nomination. They will put their support behind Dr. Paul.

That translates into a LOT of votes taken away from ANY Democratic nominee.

The Republicans would immediately have 30,000+ eager volunteeers. (That's as of right now. Ron Paul meetup group numbers are growing every day) These people are willing to work hard and sacrifice their time and money to campaign for Ron Paul.

If I were the GOP, I'd seriously analyze the situation because Dr. Paul would easily beat any Democrat in 2008.

Instead of the GOP holding their nose and nominating a loser, they should throw their support behind a sure winner. It's a win-win situation for the GOP.


Guiliani is no long shot.
To say that Rudy Guiliani (and "social liberals" like him) is a long shot is the understatement of the year. If Republicans nominate him, they will be committing political suicide.

When are we going to realize that pro-abortion is a LOSING position? Democrats are finally starting to realize it, and that's why some of them are moving to the right on the issue. Many of the Democrats who were elected in '06 are pro-life.

Republicans, unfortunately, seem to think the way to win is to become more like Democrats. They've already done that when it comes to spending, and that's largely why they took such a beating last fall. If Rudy Guiliani gets the nomination, Republicans better prepare for another shellacking.

Why is Ron Paul...
ignored by the GOP movers and shakers? It is because Ron is so strongly conservative that the rest of the candidates look like liberals. You cannot have Ron on stage with the others because, after all, the GOP is trying to sell the public on the conservative message. I am afraid that Ron will only get a chance if he goes independent. That would probably usher in Hillary because so many conservatives are unwilling to vote outside the GOP.

How I wish Ron could be elected President. The only cure for the 70+ year slide to the left is a strong conservative who intends on doing what he says he will do. The best of the rest of the GOP candidates (Hunter, Tancredo) have not reasonated to Ron's message. What they should do is support what Ron has been advocating by making it a part of their message. I like Hunter and Tancredo but their conservative credentials are a little tarnished compared to Ron.

Would I vote...
for Hunter or Tancredo? In aa heart beat baby!

Too much emphasis...
is being placed on Iraq, abortion, homosexual marriage and other pseudo moral questions. This is like a man worrying about painting the outside of his house while the inside is on fire. The biggest issue of the day should be 'What do we need to do to return this country to being controlled by the Constitution?' The world could get along without us for a while as we reestablish the Constitution as the controlling authority of the land. Once we have done that the world would take our example and would be a much better place. We cannot force the world to be free or fair but we can give a powerful example of what a free and fair system looks like. The current diseased country looks like a man with leprosy trying to sell his approach to living the good life.

I find it interesting...
... that the "Reagan coalition" is used as the example for a "social conservative" agenda, yet I don't recall Reagan ever having as a campaign issue gay marriage, and while he claimed to be against abortion, he really never emphasized that position. Reagan's usual rhetoric was about LESS government intervention in one's personal life, not more.

It's funny how people love to throw that "RINO" term around so easily. So because Guiliani disagrees on some issues, yet worked in the Reagan Administration (held up as the gold standard by the original author of this article) , governed in a manner consistent with mainstream Republican principles (lower taxes, reduced crime, pro-business, etc.), and has worked to raise money and help elect countless Republican candidates, he is still not a "true Republican" to some, and largely because he doesn't advocate MORE government intervention in personal affairs. Ironic, eh?

Social Liberal & Economic Conservative
I am an Evangelical Christian. If a Republican President cannot deliver judges who will overturn Roe and a plethora of other unconstitutional precidents then I have no use for the Republicans.

If Republicans act like liberal Democrats then it is time they are ruled by a liberal socialist Democrat. Get ready to have your taxes raised, social programs explode, have 15 million illegal socialists given voting rights and a tanked economy.

I'm voting for the Greens if Republicans choose an abortionist liberal.

Conservatism is DEAD
If conservatives wish to further the conservative agenda which is less govt. and lower taxes, as well as individuals being in control of their own destiny and being held accountable for their actions, then conservatives WILL HAVE to elect a true conservative as President, not some liberal or Johnny come lately who will say or do anything to get elected, like GW Bush. Bush is and was no conservative, and has harmed the conservative movement more than anyone person. If another non-conservative is elected to represent the conservatives, you can kiss conservatism goodbye forever. Better to let Hillary govern than to turn the party over to a moderate-lib. At least we can then start getting conservatives back in the primaries. A rep. pres. is not going to support anyone except the incumbents and neither is the RNC. So to get conservatives in the primaries, we have to get rid of the incumbents in the general election. No other way, except to start a third party.

It's not rocket science.

Abortion issue a straw dog

.....The Liberals would love to see the 2008 election turn on the issue of abortion because it would guarantee them a victory ...

.....Most moderates will say that they personally are against abortion but do not want to deny a woman the choice ...this is Rudy's position and why he is so popular with moderates ...the 2008 election will not be decided by the extreme left or the far right but by the moderate middle ...

.....At least Rudy has always been consistent on his position one knows where he stands ...Romney on the other hand has wavered depending on the political climate ...his convictions are Clintonesque and influenced by polls ...I'll take honesty over the ethics of convience everytime ...

.....Let's say that I am a social conservative and abortion is my main issue ...let's say that my choice for President is between Rudy and Hillary ...do I vote for a man who has promised to nominate constructionist judges to the Supreme Court and believes that Roe was bad law and should be returned to the States? ...or do I stay home and concede my vote to Hillary who has voted for partial birth abortions and would nominate social extremists to the left of Ruth Bader Ginsberg to the Court? ...Is there really a choice here? ...

.....I live in Red State Texas and Rudy is very popular here ...only Fred Thompson might give him a run in the Primaries ...I would vote for Rudy because I believe he offers the best choice to keep the White House in Republican hands in '08 .....buzzcat and bowa ...kudos your posts are very logical .....COLOSSUS

postscript: Abortion is an emotional issue ...conservatives are supposed to be logical ...emotionalism is a Liberal thing .....COLOSSUS

justpaul
"There is nothing conservative about the belief that the government has any business deciding how people can or should live. That is the domain of liberalism. If the GOP continues to embrace such an ideology, it will die the death it so soundly deserves."

Actually that is the main point of conservatism -- to halt change. It is in the origin of the very word. The GOP was not all about conservatism until the extreme right captured it.

"The fact that Ronald Reagan beat Jimmy Carter and Walter Mondale had far more to do with the shortcomings of the latter than anything to do with Reagan's philosophy."

I put to you it was a bit of both. What Reagan's philosophy really was amounted to using the country's infrastructure and capital, human and other, without expanding or replacing it except in the most minimalist terms. The result was an apparent free lunch pay a lot less tax with, at least for a time, the same services. CA education is a classic example of the result of Reagan philosophy. When Reagan first became governor of CA that state's schools were the envy of the country and among the best schools. Within 10 years they were crushed and never did recover. Pick any element of society and government all of which were among the best in the world. With the exception of military, none of those areas from healthcare to science to manufacturing are the best in the world now. We ceased competing. That is the conservative legacy and people are finally beginning to notice it.

Rudy's Strength

.....Rudy is universally feared by the Liberals ...whenever his name is mentioned as an opponent to Hillary ...Liberals come out of the woodwork with foaming mouths to attack him ...

.....no other Republican candidate evokes this kind of reaction from the Libs .....COLOSSUS

You may be right -- BUT...
Candidly, I have nothing but complete contempt for those sanctimonious types who presume to tell us how we should live and/or conduct our lives. "Social" engineering is damned-near as bad as the left's constant meddling in everything else. As an independent Independent of the Libertarian persuasion, sorry, but the priorities are totally updescrewed. Needed is a STRONG president, not a wimp like the present inhabitant of the White House (oh, sure, he's got that "surge" crap happening, finally -- something he SHOULD HAVE DONE 3-4 YEARS ago!); methinks that Rudy Guiliani would have kicked some butt and not have been so accomidating or Politically Correct - - and this fiasco would've been over, sometime ago.
GOP creeps screwing around with our lives can be amazingly frustrating -- like that Goodlatte jerk and his measures banning Internet Wagering, that California creep who wanted to ban the "Morning After Pill?"
Things like that are why I've told the Republican National Committee to cease sending me their garbage and not to Darken My Door again.

Hmmmm
Claim: "Giuliani will pull in vastly more "moderates" than any other Republican candidate:

He may pull in more moderates, but what states will he put in play? New York and California will still go for Hillary. Same for New Jersey, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania. I doubt he could put Michigan or New Hampshire in serious contention either. Florida will be in play regardless of whether Giuliani or a real conservative is running. Giuliani will simply drag the party leftward on social issues.

If you consider that abortion is determined by judges who are decided upon by the president, then effectively it does make sense to vote for one's president on the basis of one's abortion vote. Giuliani will not appoint strict constructionists to the court... unless that is, you'd believe a strict constructionist can uphold Roe v. Wade like he thinks.

Vandamm
...or perhaps social conservatives will be out there trying to put an end to a genocidal policy foisted on us by the liberal elite. Whatever happened to those human rights which the elite keep trumpeting?

Darren & Bowa & Robert
The reason that many social conservatives support amending the Constitution to define marriage is because the courts will not hesitate to impose their vision of marriage on the country. The amendment is considered as the best way of keeping the courts from following the Mass. example of a court creating a new right to gay marriage out of whole cloth; it is not to give the feds more power, but to put a stop to the usurpation of legislative powers by the courts. Further, I have heard no social conservatives asking for a federal ban on abortion, as you claimed. I have heard those that want to overturn Roe explain that getting rid of Roe is the only way to put the abortion issue back into the hands of the people at the state level. Otherwise the feds are the ones in control of this issue that is clearly one of state's rights.

Bowa, pregnancy is not a "difficult position" that one just happens to "find" themselves in; getting pregnant takes an overt act and if you put yourself in that position, you should deal with it.

Robert, Bush v. Gore was not some made up law, it was the SCOTUS forcing the Fla. SuCo to stop trying to rewrite election law in the middle of an election. It was the Florida Court that was making up laws, not the SCOTUS.

There Are Two Objectives
One to win, at all costs and no matter what, for the sake of power and prestige.

Two, Since the socialists control one party absolutely and have no other viable opposition, It is only natural that they would seek to attack and destroy, their only credible enemy or attempt to seize control of that party as well.

As to the latter, you can see the disconnect between the party "leadership" and the rank and file. The rank and file are being offered socialism brought to them via a supersonic jet as opposed to it's delivery by inter-modal transport.

Under such conditions, the only options available to the voting public are socialist. Debate and discussion cannot truly be accomplished because the information being digested by the public is provided and crafted by the socialists themselves, through the politomedia and entertainment industry complex (and let's not forget the schools!), where all things left are supported and nothing right has ever existed. Unless is helps the left achieve their goals.

For recorded history there have been those who would seize power through subterfuge, deceit, intimidation, assaults and even murder. The outcomes for average people have always been slavery and death. This is why the left wishes to conceal these issues and does not promote truth. Truth does not help them, it hinders their acquisition of power and control.

They have never willingly gone away or admitted that they have any responsibilities when it comes to explaining the slavery, injuries or deaths they produce. The beginnings and ends are always the same and we have learned this lesson before.

Why then must we learn it again? Because there exists the belief that they need to achieve power at any price and by any means. They are simply using those tools which have worked before. Truth has always been their enemy and so it is necessary for them to create another truth which supports them and which they control.

repubs need to get realistic
somehow there are many who think that one's position can never change. Personal beliefs are one thing, imposing them are something else. All this debaste concerning roe will ultimately be decided by the supremes. To those who plan to skip the election unless a pure conserv is nominated, get ready for the socialist/commie missus clinton and watch what she will do with changing the supremes. You don't enact an agenda from a minority position. The majority rules and that should be the rallying cry for the repubs

It's the borders
Conservatives are primarily concerned about the invasion by illegal aliens. The issue is BORDER SECURITY. Abortion and homosexuality are not trashing my community right now. Illegal aliens are.


Vandamm
Actually, social conservatives are most concerned about murder. Generally, we don't have that problem from a legal standpoint with children already born. We do have that problem with children inside the womb.

There is plenty of reason to be concerned about gay marriage, but not because it's an issue about homosexuality, but rather a question then about what purpose marriage serves. Social conservatives generally believe that when it comes to kids, you make 'em, you raise 'em, and that marriage really comes down to being about this. This is hardly radical.

Wanting to stem judicial activism, whether it be on abortion, gay marriage, free speech, etceteras, is a perfectly sensible means by which to cast one's vote. There's no reason to support someone like Giuliani who has made it clear he scorns social conservatives, and insults them as a liability to the party. There's no reason to support someone like Giuliani who time and again declares that he'd support strict constructionists, but then when questioned about what that means, clearly hasn't a clue.

Your notion of oppression is completely off the mark. Social conservatives seek what's morally right, and to promote public virtue. Do they want big government? On some issues, certainly. After all, why should the penalty for murder depend upon what side of a border you're on. But on other issues, such as education, many of them are quite happy to see the responsibility for schools devolved to the local level.

Mr. Limbaugh is exactly right!
Look at it this way. If you think of America as a ship traversing a stormy sea, who would you prefer to have as captain? A weak-spined person who holds no strong opinions about the way the ship should be run? Or would you feel more secure with a strong captain who knows the difference between right and wrong and who is fearless enough to articulate those beliefs?

Ronald Reagan was a strong captain who led us through the final days of the cold war storm. Sadly he left us with nice-guy, but wimpish, successoor (George Bush the first)

Now we find ourselves in another stormy sea, the battle against world terrorism and not-so-creeping socialism.

What kind of captain do we need now? Someone who condones the worst sides of our selfish natures (gay rights, abortion, promiscuity)? I think it more likely the American people would prefer another strong man with powerful convictions and no wishy-washy catering to the worst in our society. Right now the only man out there that comes close to fitting that description in my opinion is Newt Gingrich. I'm praying for others.
Hampton Bush
http://www.goldenquill.net/blog



Or would they prefer a captain with strong opinions, a powerful will to keep the ship on course and

Vandamm
It's not a question of what sexuality of relationship benefits society. Rather, it's a question of responsibility in child-bearing and rearing. Obviously other things which we could crack down on are fornication, adultery, and divorce. Unfortunately, doing so would often mean overly-zealous measures, but this doesn't change the notion that eliminating them are worthwhile goals.

I haven't said anything about whose relationships are being more beneficial, and if you are familiar with what I've posted previously on Townhall, you know I am also quite disgusted with many heterosexual couples for their slam-bam-thank-you-ma'am attitudes and valuation of fellow human beings.

Social conservatives have not come out supporting the torture and killing of gays abroad en masse. There are a few radicals, as there are with any group, but this is hardly representative of social conservatives. I would suggest getting a sense of perspective.

The babies born are of interest to conservatives that their rights are respected. Healthcare though is not a right. Suppose every doctor today died, and babies then couldn't get healthcare. Have their rights been violated? No. Rights regulate how man treats his fellow man. They do not serve as a means by which man may demand that his fellow man serve him.

By strict constructionist, I mean someone who enforces the law as written. If you don't like it, try to change it *through the legislative process.*

Abortion is the issue...
--
...that the socialists (read: "DemaGOP") are counting upon to divide and cripple the freedom movement.

Oh, yeah. I'm using the term "socialists" explicitly, not pejoratively.

Call 'em what you like - socialists, fascists, progressives, "Liberals," the Democratic National Committee - they're all straight out of the same "government ought to own everything, run everything, and anybody who disagrees gets the Waco basement treatment."

Socialists.

Those of us who oppose Bubba's Ball-and-Chain (and the rest of Waco Willie's co-religionists) need to get past this crap about abortion, and *RIGHT NOW*.

For all you religious whackjobs, consider the "unintended consequences" if you win.

Okay, you outlaw abortion. Now what? A girl get pregnant. How do you *prevent* her from voluntarily aborting that pregnancy?

Once she detects her pregnancy with an OTC urine test, are you going to require her to register and wear an ankle monitor? Are you going to forbid her to travel anyplace where she can have a D&C? Will she have to register with your "Pregnancy Police," hm? And will the Democrats be able to pass laws criminalizing smoking, drinking, drugs, or trans-fat consumption during her pregnancy?

I mean, have you idiots actually spent any time *THINKING* about this stuff? Do you realize what you're trying to hand over to your enemies if you *win*?

God save America from "social conservatives."
--

The GOP is dead, True Conservatism isn't
Sadly, since this is a "Republican" website, too many of you are still looking to the GOP to save the day, but that will not happen. A Republican President will be one more of the elites who have secured power in Washington by promoting the big lie over and over until it has become accepted and believed. That lie is that only they can govern, only they have wisdom and knowledge and experience. As long as that attitude prevails, we will never escape the growth of more big government, the decline in our personal freedoms, and growing influence of the internationalists who hate America.

This one world government agenda is part of the philosophy of both parties, and they have been selling us out for years. If you don't think the GOP is part of this, how do you explain McCain/Feingold, the amnesty scam that they have not yet given up on despite the "victory" last month. How do you explain GOP nominated Supreme Court Justice O'Connor who wanted to interpret OUR Constitution in light of the laws of other nations.

The two parties have engineered the entire election process to assure themselves continual power, and if we elect another President from either party, we will only stengthen their grip on power and guarantee a future for our nation and our children of the socialist, internationalist agenda.

It is time to get past the propaganda of the Dem/GOP/MSM machines and recognize that our future cannot be left to these people. I urge you to check out my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG and see clearly how we can restore the Constitution, rule of law, and will of the people as the principles by which we govern ourselves as a free nation. Check it out. What is there to lose? The elites have already stolen our birthright. Let's take it back. Thanks, Joe

Robert
Bush-bashing isn't going to win anyone points. Endorsing Bush to win will certainly kill a candidacy, but by itself bashing Bush gets no votes.

On what issues should a candidate squabble? Republicans aren't winning on healthcare or the environment. They'll have a tough time selling their position on Iraq (though it's getting easier with the progress there), and people have already heard all there is to hear about al Qaeda. You've got to find something new to say, and I don't see these candidates having it.

As for outlining a vision of how government works, I don't really get this line. There's three branches... =P

I'm betting we'll lose every state we lost last time. Additionally, I'm willing to bet that Flordia, Ohio, and New Mexico fall into the hands of the Democrats.

Abortion, gay rights, etceteras isn't settled. Otherwise it wouldn't keep coming up. =P

Hey Pancho
Pancho writes: Tuesday, August, 07, 2007 12:32 AM
Traditional values
You mean like your brother, thrice divorced and childless? Or Ann Coulter, middle-aged, never married, childless. Newt?

You have some nads to question Mitt Romney's traditional values, since he's been happily married to one woman and raised wonderful children in a clean, healthy environment.
It's probably the Mormon thing. Just not your kinda Christian, right?
----------------------

When Ann Coulter or my "once" married brother or my thrice married self runs for President, your complaint will be valid and deserve some explanation.

Until then try and keep abreast of who is running.

For myself in learning the republicans are owned by the same people the democrats are, and use the citizens prejudices to keep the nation divided, I will never again vote for any person running in either party.
(an excpetion would be if the republicans or democrats ran Tom Tancredo or Duncan Hunter, fat chance of that huh.)



SJ Doc
"Those of us who oppose Bubba's Ball-and-Chain (and the rest of Waco Willie's co-religionists) need to get past this crap about abortion, and *RIGHT NOW*."

Why? Abortion is a human rights issue. That's something which deserves our attention, not our scorn.

"Okay, you outlaw abortion. Now what? A girl get pregnant. How do you *prevent* her from voluntarily aborting that pregnancy?"

How do you prevent one person from killing another. You never really can. How do you prevent theft? You can't. What you do do is you recognize it as the equivalent of first degree murder on the part of the abortionist, and acting as an accessory to murder on the part of the woman. The law isn't meant to prevent when it forbids something so much as it is meant to address it when what it forbids is violated.

Social conservativism is the one movement which may save America from itself.

President Guiliani?
Sorry, everyone, but it's not gonna happen. If he gets the nomination, Republicans will LOSE. Like it or not, that's the reality. If the party is stupid enough to nominate him, don't blame social conservatives for his defeat.

Agree
And this is why the republican party can eat cake as far as I am concerned.

Let them continue working for the Mexican Citizens they have adopted as their base.
I am done with this deciet laden party, just as I was the communist loving socialists in the democrats.
---------------

Joe Oliva writes:

The two parties have engineered the entire election process to assure themselves continual power, and if we elect another President from either party, we will only stengthen their grip on power and guarantee a future for our nation and our children of the socialist, internationalist agenda.

It is time to get past the propaganda of the Dem/GOP/MSM machines and recognize that our future cannot be left to these people.

Janice Rogers Brown or Ginsburg?
I am personally pro choice but believe that the issue should be left to the elected officials of the states. Its pretty simpele for me. Roe Wade corrupted the law and used the Supreme Court to do it. Nevertheless, Abortion is not an issue i vote on. For me it is far more important that I know that a Janice Rogers Brown gets nominated instead of anothwer Ginsburg. This is how social cons should look at thie issue.

Robert
"We need to get back to actions which represent the people not ridiculous special interest groups and corporations...we need to find consensus politics not confrontational politics."

Take the sum of special interests, corporations, etceteras, and that is the American people. If you are looking to find consensus, politics is not the field for you.

The right-wing agenda may be rejected, it may not be. It wasn't when Reagan or Bush were elected. It's fallen out of favor recently, but that's why we try to persuade rather than give up on principle. Reagan was part of the social right, by the way.

Will it change? Will it last? Maybe. Maybe. We'll see.

Vandamm
Just want to see how socially liberal you actually are, so here’s a hypothetical question for you:

If scientists were able to identify and isolate a “homosexual gene” (as many in your community believes exists), would you have any problems if there were massive and wide-spread abortions (voluntarily) on every fetus identified with this gene?


Al Qaeda?

"...and people have already heard all there is to hear about al Qaeda..."

You must be joking! Why it's almost as if Islamic terrorists are an abstract theory, concocted by some left winged college professor, who doesn't take his psychotropic meds as he should, in stead of an absolute set of facts!

When Gingrich makes remarks about the destruction of an American city as "THE," objective of these terrorists, he is not exaggerating. HE means that they intend to detonate at least one nuclear device, here.

Ohhh and by the way, Al Qaeda is only one of such organizations, comprising many different peoples worldwide who share the same goals. Just because no one will report these issues in depth doesn't mean they've gone away and no longer exist as fact.

It isn't about frightening people, it's about reducing their fears to a "manageable level."

We are attempting to avoid acting as we should considering the threat. A population which understood the gravity of the threat, might force the government to actions that it doesn't want to take.... That is without a lot more bodies which can be held up as justification for further use of force.

Our enemies (more than one and more than just Muslim) know this and are using it against us at every turn. Sooner or later it will be crunch time and the price for waiting will be extreme. Just like always.

Political considerations are worth more than your life to some politicians and organizations.

Vandamm
Your ignorance of American History is staggering. Last week I assumed you were just a confused young teenager, which you denied, so I'm assuming you must be a recent immigrant or possibly a drop-out.

Please take a little time to learn some of our history. America is not without its blemishes and mistakes, but take a little time to study western civilization, world history, and esp. American history. I assure you, your views will change dramatically.

Vandamm
Social conservatives have not opposed attempts to address human rights violations. They do not want the UN acting as an international government, granted, and they do believe in a given amount and level of sovereignty. However, can you find me a quote in which they support such a striking of rights?

The other thing to understand is that many social conservatives (not all, myself included), regard homosexuality to be a set of actions rather than an orientation, and that such is immoral. As such, while you will find that gays being hung in Iran won't garner outrage among conservatives, it certainly won't have their endorsement either. Suppose they started torturing and killing thieves. You likely wouldn't be outraged demanding human rights, but you wouldn't be endorsing the position either. You'd think the action taken was wrong, but then again so was the offense. It happens that the punishment doesn't fit and outweighs the crime. In this case, I personally think there is no moral crime, and that Iran's evil. But then again, isn't it conservatives who have been pushing for regime change in Iran?

Vandamm
As for Iraqi homosexuals, it's rather easy to avoid being targeted if you're concerned solely about practical consequences. Don't go flaunting your homosexuality if you don't want to be targeted. Stay in the closet so to speak if you don't want to be blown up. Whether or not that's fair is another matter, but in a place without civil order you've got to wonder whether being dead and openly gay matters more to you, or being alive and in the closet is better.

You haven't provided me with a single source or quote about these various groups you mention. Just claims.

Strict constructionists would not have blessed segregation, slavery, or interracial marriage. They're not part of the constitution. Those matters fall to the states, and as for equal rights, I suggest you start looking at the 14th amendment.

It seems to me, Vandamm, that you're a radical, reactionary bigot who's bent on taking comments out of context, uses guilt-by-association to no end. Why would you hope that I was white? What does it matter what my skin color or my gender is? Why paint with such a broad brush on characterizing social conservatives? Hence, my bigot claim.

Long shots
DL writes, "Much of Mitt Romney's difficulties with the base can be traced to its unease with his flip-flop on the life issue. It's not that the base is unforgiving concerning his past views, but that it is not sure his "conversion" is authentic. With the base, trust is as important as the underlying issues". Mitt Romney's "Conversion" was from "Prolife" to "Prochoice" to "Prolife". He has always been FOR LIFE and merely abiding by Roe v Wade...the law of the land.

"I promised that if elected, I'd call a truce - a moratorium, if you will...I vowed to veto any legislation that sought to change the existing rules...I fully respect and will fully protect a woman's right to choose."

On abortion and reproductive rights, Romney now claims that he has "evolved" and that "my political philosophy is pro-life."

ALL of this Roe v Wade discussion should NOT be in the political debate. It should be the business of State Legislators and Judges...NOT politicians. BTW if any of you GOP Base folks read this post...YOU'RE NOT ELECTING A MORMON...YOU'RE ELECTING A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Mitt Romney owes nobody anything when elected. He has made his committment to return to..."government of the people, by the people and for the people..." Mitt Romney is a man of integrity and the man who will clean up the mountains of waste and NEPOTISM in the Socialist/Marxist spending by the generational bureauocrats who invented NEPOTISM AND PRODUCE THE LEAKS WHICH UNDERMINE THE GOP ADMINISTRATION'S ABILITY TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY.

Clarification of "worst of society"
Sorry, I'm new to blogging and wrote in haste. What I meant with my "worst in society" comment was not intended as a moral judgement.

While I don't condone gay practices, I believe homosexuals have a right to do what they do—in private. I don't believe they have a right to promote their lifestyle.

I don't condone promiscuity or the promotion of it as a lifestyle either.

Promiscuity can lead to the destruction of the family and ultimately to society. My views on abortion are similar.

A society in order to maintain its population requires 2.2 children per marriage. A society that aborts its children will soon vanish. In the same way, a "gay" society could not survive in isolation. Homosexuality, in my view is in nature an abberation. The purpose of sex is procreation. The purpose of procreation is to maintain the population. Homosexuality and abortion are both destructive of that purpose. . .at least until medicine finds a way to bring immortality to the human race, thus eliminating the need for procreation.

Hampton Bush

Christians do not deserve such hatred
Vandamm writes:


USA has remained silent of all human rights violations of gays. Anti-gay organizations like FOF, CWA and La Barbera ALL support killing and detainment of gays in African states and Asia. CWA went as far as complimente muslim regimes for defending the family by killing gays.

So don't come tell me that social conservatives wouldn't happily endorse such politics here too? Or is it Christian just to torture and kill African or Arab gays?
--------------------------


Your own hate is the problem here.

You cannot accept another persons rights.

You are no different than what you condemn falsely.

And is the problem.

Just for once accept the concept that all men are free to have an opinion undeserving of such hate from people like yourself.

Vandamm
Please answer the question I posed to you at 11:48.

Vandamm
I knew you would never answer my question.

The first sign that your position is immoral or illogical is when you realize it is completely indefensible.

More religious whackjobbery
--
From not-sufficiently-Stoic Patriot:

"Why? Abortion is a human rights issue. That's something which deserves our attention, not our scorn."

Setting aside the putative "right" of someone like Stoic Patriot (acting through the agency of civil government and all the violent force that government uses to secure compliance) to *MAKE* a woman carry a pregnancy to term, there's the old question of supposedly "conficting rights."

What human being has the absolute *RIGHT* to exist within the body of another human being?

Ain't none. Never has been, never could be. A woman who conceives a child and carries that pregnancy safely to delivery has done so as a freely given *gift*. She has no reciprocal right in law to (and should have no expectation of) any repayment of any kind whatsoever.

Old "Stoic" needs to get his narrow little head wrapped around the concept of "rights" a bit more firmly, particularly the concept called "negative" (or "hands-off!") rights, from which all "positive" rights derive.

But what's his motive? The socialists just want government from cradle to grave. This self-appointed "Patriot" wants to have it invading the womb. Has he thought it through?

Nah!

Every conception the potential for criminal misadventure. Every miscarriage a coroner's case. Even a virgin's failure to take a vitamin supplement becomes an actionable offense against "The Unborn" (civil as well as criminal) because she *might* get herself inadvertently and unintentionally pregnant.

Where does it end?

Well, hell, it *DOESN'T*, does it?

Guys, if you thought the 3rd Amendment was an oddity of history (forbidding the quartering of soldiers in private homes without the owner's consent), wait until you see what this most un-patriotic of putative "Patriot" clowns wants to do to women's bodies.
--

vandamn
what part of europe are you from. You seem stuck on gays being murdered by muslims as though we not only condone such activities but are holding our breath so we can do the same here. With the liberal msm we are inflicted with, should such occurring take place they would be front page news. Despite what you think we are very tolerant of differences here. We don't necessarily approve of certain groups or their activities but we don't condone murder because of those difvferences. It has been posted that muslims condone child molestation and that carries no penalty. TYhey murder adults caught doing the same to each other. Wer condemn the first and attempt to send them to prison while we ignore that latter. Your perspective is very odd indeed

rae
"...to actually make this country safe, both on a security level and infrastructure...Better vote Dem"

LOL, your parody or satire still needs a little polish, but that was pretty good.

Sigh
Maybe I mis-construed this article but it appears Cal's claiming Repbs should only nominate a pro-life candidate. The president can't overturn Roe. He can only appoint judges who follow the constitution. Guiliani will do that.

If "social conservatives", in Cal's mind, mean pro-life (and that's what I took away from it), then its about one issue only. I'm not a fan of abortion - I'd like to see it stopped - at the same time, if you nominate someone who's conservative but not electable (Gingrich comes to mind), then its Hillary Clinton and a democratic Congress for at least the next four years.

Look for a candidate with most conservative qualities WHO IS ELECTABLE. Nominating a candidate primarily on the basis of his pro-life stance could potentially lead to disaster (ie Hillary)

This sort of accusations
Vandamm writes: Tuesday, August, 07, 2007 12:23 PM
talent scout
Well, if I should celebrate or envcourage killing of christians in muslim countries in the same manner conservatives endorse killing of gays in those countries, that would be hatred.

-------------------
In reply:

Being of the Christian Faith for over 40 years and holding sodomy as a crime against nature as all moral people do, I have not once heard of any person in America speaking to Christians or others to kill anyone.

Nor have I seen anyone who has promoted hate for any person who is a sinner of any sin, even sodomy, and is a sin against God and nature itself.

I do see the sodomites expressing hate constantly for Christians.
I do not see adulterers organizing to fight an opinion adultery is a sin just a sodomy.
The hate comes from you, and all the sodomites.


Before you lecture me concerning the word sodomy, take the time to look at all laws passed in all nations of the world against this sordid sexual perversion and you will see sodomy is the exact word used in law.

I refuse to use your definitions and euphemisms.

Words indeed mean something, so lets stick to the law and the dictionary, and is what YOU refuse to do, not me.

------------



Vandamm writes:

Isn't it intersting how much words mean: what you calkl a disagreement is a question of life and death, liberty and oppression. And you, like other socail conservatives willingly side the oppression and bigotry.
---------

Then I expect you to use this knowledge correctly.

Your own bigotry is the problem, based in your hate and lack of respect for the opinions of all who do not accept the moral lines you demand.




Robert
Bush v Gore simply said that you must recount ALL the districts not just close ones.

Please point out the independent source which said Gore actually won...you won't because there isn't one. Every recount since show Gore lost by roughly 300 votes.

For you to say a baby which has a heartbeat in 3-4 weeks is not a person is inhuman.

You *do* know that the survival rate in the third trimester(27 weeks) is in the high 80 percentages? Then again maybe you just ok with violence against the truly helpless and innocent?

Its irrelevant to the Roe V Wade discussion in any event.

Some try hard to earn hatred & contempt.

To Robert, et al
Don't want to rain on your parade, but only Duncan Hunter can win it for the GOP, and most importantly, for America. We are circling the drain, seemingly sucked into Third World misery by the Bush Bunch and their enablers from pre-Reagan days.

If you want to see enthusiasm and continuing support for a Republican candidate, you need Duncan Hunter as our nominee. Ronald Reagan was a straight shooter. He looked us in the eye and told us home truths that drove "Progressive Republicans" mad.

I won't list Hunter's credentials here. If you care about America, you will research them. If you want to surrender American sovereignty, just gripe on. Tell your children that it's every man to his own tent and then be silent. But if you want a renascence of this Land of Liberty, support Duncan Hunter. He is the best candidate since Ronald Reagan. Duncan Hunter is A Straight Shooter. Duncan Hunter Walks the Walk.

Kool Aid
There is so much Kool Aid posted on this thread my laptop started dripping red!

vandamm
I thought all you liberals believed that bigotry was written into the Constitution with the 3/5 compromise---I guess you've cahnged your minds.

The point is that writing a marriage amendment into the Constitution would not be enshrining hatred, but delivering the power to decide out of the hands of judges who are accountable to no one. If the Constitution was being followed as written, there would be no need of having this disussion, but we have reached a point where the SCOTUS justices think their personal policy preferences are to be imposed on the rest of us by their say so. If the liberals in black robes stayed in their proper roles, this would never even be considered. But if you think that this is all some grand Christain conspiracy against gays, knock yourself out. I can't say anything to change what you think anyway.

Talent Scout
"Being of the Christian Faith for over 40 years and holding sodomy as a crime against nature as all moral people do, I have not once heard of any person in America speaking to Christians or others to kill anyone."

I have heard several at different times

ardis
"When conservatism is tried it works. The question is who will have the guts, stamina and the brains to implement the conservative agenda?"

Really where and when was that?

I am a social conservative
but I will vote for the republican who is the most capable leader. I will not stay home. I will not regard abortion as the most important issue before us today. What does abortion matter if we are overtaken by islamoextremists?

Thighmaster
If you're looking for a real, down to earth, working man as a candidate, check out my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG. Your comments are right off the pages of my website, almost word for word.

No political machine, no PAC support, no backing from the money grubbing lobbyists, no political career to defend, no postion of wealth to maintain!! My only goal is to restore to the true owners of this nation, "WE the People", the birthright the elites have stolen from us! I have a way to do it but I will need help from those that care enough.

Why continue to believe the Dem/GOP/MSM propaganda that only they can govern, only they have wisdom, knowledge, experience. It is just the age old tactic of telling a lie over and over until it becomes believed and accepted, but we do not have to fall for it again. We do not have to vote for the lesser of two evils, hoping for the different result that never has and never will materialize.

Trust your instincts, have faith in your own wisdom. That is how you will not be disappointed! Check it out, what's to lose? The elites have taken our inheritance from us, we can take it back. Thanks, Joe

ardis has the wrong focus
--
Says ardis:

"...to insist that abortion should be legal because exterminating babies can't 100% be prohibited and you don't want to impose your beliefs on others precisely defines wet, emotional and illogical thinking."

Er, no. It's a matter of defining what is and is not the proper role of government in civil society.

It's never a question about whether the action of an individual human being "...should be legal" but rather what an officer of government should be duty-bound to deter as criminal.

The individual human being has *RIGHTS*. The government agent (acting as such) has only *DUTIES*. It's the start and finish of the concept we call "rule of law."

Private citizens can and do accept responsibility for duties, but duties are never intrinsic to the individual's existence. I'm a doctor. I come upon someone injured, and I have a duty (by virtue of my profession) to provide what care I can. My duty, however, can be *ended* the minute someone - even a properly equipped EMT with adequate means to provide support and evacuation - comes upon the scene.

You, ardis, on the other hand, have no such training, have accepted no such professional obligation, and have no such duty. If you just stood there in shock, or turned and fled, or intervened and screwed things up horribly, your responsibilities (both civil and criminal) to act or *not* to act would be very limited.

In that situation, I'm something of an acknowledged "officer" of government, with duties and obligations. You're not.

You may feel that you're *morally* obligated to render aid. Are you obligated in law to do so, to the same extent that *I* am?

Okay, to what extent is a pregnant woman an officer of government? What duties or obligations does she voluntarily shoulder in the act of becoming pregnant?

What duty has a pregnant woman, under law?

What *RIGHTS* has she as an individual human being - also under law?
--

Ardis
Ardis, you're dead on target. I too believe Newt or Hunter are the best shot we have, or maybe a combo of the two.

As for explaining Christian attitudes about homosexuality, it's a lost cause. The gay movement will accept nothing but total acceptance of their lifestyle, which is personally abhorrent to me, not as a Christian, but simply as a man.

As for Newt's marriages, I don't condone multiple marriages, but if we ruled divorced people out of the contest, only about 1/3 of the population would be eligible, and I think most of those would be children. I know many divorcees who aren't "promiscuous." They didn't marry well originally and the "law" of the land permits divorce and remarriage. Multiple marriage is not the same as "promiscuity." Have a nice day, all.

SJ_Doc
"The individual human being has *RIGHTS*."

That's very true. The most fundamental right is the right to life. Liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and all other rights are rather pointless without the right to life. If an unborn child is a human being - and it is - then it has the right to life.

Please do not defend abortion in the name of "rights." Abortion itself is the ultimate violation of human rights.

Joe
We get it, you are running for president and you have a website. You make good points, you don't need to advertise you website over and over and over.

joeolivaforpresident.org

got it buddy, give it a freakin rest.

Non-secular Republicans
Not all Republican voters are overtly socially conservative. I live in Texas, vote Republican, and am "moderate" on social issues. I certainly have no problem with those more socially conservative, but I put more value in strong leadership, smaller government, personal responsibility, and all those other things that make me a fiscal conservative and rock solid REpublican. I like Rudy, I like John...and I am going to be voting!

TO MY FRIENDS ON THE REICH
GIVE UP NOW... IT'S PATHETIC TO SEE YOU FLOPPING LIKE FISH ON A POLLUTED SHORE.

True conservative positions
If we're going to discuss the chances of GOP moderates being shunned by "social conservatives" it might be useful to identify the true conservative positions in play. I offer the following postulations of the 'true conservative' positions for intelligent discussion.

1. The true conservative position on abortion is that it is a matter for the individual states, per the 10th Amendment, and that the US Supreme Court violated the 10th Amendment in choosing to decide Roe vs. Wade. It is NOT the true conservative position that abortion should be banned nationwide by the federal government.

2. The true conservative position on gay marriage is that government sanction of marriage does not 'allow' two people to marry. It requires the rest of society to respect the relationship as a legal, lawful marriage.

Conservatives believe this too should be a state matter, and that the principle of repricosity between states should not require states that don't 'recognize' gay marriage to honor one that was sanctioned in another state, such has been done in Massachusetts.

We also fear 'imperial' supreme courts such as in Massachusetts, that will trample checks and balances by ordering the legislature what laws it must pass, and even issue a deadline for doing it.

3. Conservatives believe that the true meaning and intent of the 1st Amendment has been bastardized and used for exactly the opposite of its purpose. We believe the 1st Amendment means that ALL religions have a right to use the lawn of City Hall, rather than the false atheistic notion that no religion has that right.

4. True conservatives believe that the stigma of divorce is strictly a religious matter; not a political one.

5. True conservatives believe that personal freedom and personal responsibility go hand in hand and are inseparable as a matter of practicality. You cannot be independent of government and dependent upon government at the same time.

Hal
You seriously expect us to believe that you've heard "several" Christians urging others to kill all the homosexuals?!?

Your credibility is already stretched paper thin....are you sure you want to stand by these comments?

the reich wants to win so bad...
that they dont care about social issues.
party of hypocrytes will not fool america this time.

hate to break it to you HAL
ardis:
"When conservatism is tried it works. The question is who will have the guts, stamina and the brains to implement the conservative agenda?"

Hal:
Really where and when was that?

Here is where it worked:

- Reagan runs on conservative, small government ticket wins big twice over two lefties(Carter and Mondale).
-Bush 41 gets elected on Reagans coattails and succumbs to Democrat Congress and raises taxes.
-Raising taxes(and Perot) catapults Clinton into office. Here is some of Clintons campaign slogans: "We are going to reduce the size of government", "We need a middle class tax cut"
-Clinton raises taxes roughly 4 months into office
-94 Elections hand the legislature to Newt Gingrich and his Contract with America - which was no doubt Liberal right Hal?
-Clinton/Congress reduce capital gains taxes and reform Welfare. He is re-elected.

Shall I go on, or will you point out the glorious liberal campaign which succeeded by saying :
We will raise taxes.
We will give more power the the government.
We will control your health care.

I eagerly await your examples.

Shallow Hal:"I have heard several at different times"

I call bullsh!t.

wiseone
where are your TRUE conservatives?
time for a 3rd party!

Icedog
"Hal You seriously expect us to believe that you've heard "several" Christians urging others to kill all the homosexuals?!?

Your credibility is already stretched paper thin....are you sure you want to stand by these comments?"

I stand by my comments but they responded to "...I have not once heard of any person in America speaking to Christians or others to kill anyone." I literally heard two people. preachers yet, tell use to kill commies for Christ (we were in the military by the way) and I have heard several individuals killing abortion doctors was ok and good. I think commies and doctors count as persons?

Vandamm
"Because without any reservations you have nothing against killing and torture of gays in Iran"

Actually, I made a case for many social conservatives, and differentiated myself from them. Are you capable of reading anything, or just emoting out your wazoo?

...Would it surprise you that I'm an atheist? I don't believe in the sanctity of life. I believe in fair and just treatment for all. I also never said I support or celebrate people having to hide their beliefs, but furthermore, I would think be a gay activist as you are, you wouldn't want to call homosexuality a belief. Get a grip.

vandamm
Still waiting on you to answer my 11:48 question. It's purely opinionated...why is it so difficult for you to answer??

SJ Doc
"Setting aside the putative "right" of someone like Stoic Patriot (acting through the agency of civil government and all the violent force that government uses to secure compliance) to *MAKE* a woman carry a pregnancy to term, there's the old question of supposedly "conficting rights.""

Granted, it brings it up. But while we would defend your right to a gun, we wouldn't defend your ability to shoot whomever you pleased. There's a reasonable set of restrictions on rights, and they only go so far.

You ask what being has the right to exist in another. What being has the right to kill another innocent person?

I have thought it through, and also believe I have a legal case per the 5th amendment. I support banning abortion after 40 days into a pregnancy because that's when a kid becomes conscious. It is at that point an individual is present, and it is individuals who we believe have rights. To have a right to control one's body, one must first be alive. Life sets the foundation for bodily control, and as such gains priority in the event of a conflict of rights.

I dare contend SJ Doc, that my "narrow" head is a far better one to have than one as pompous and thick as yours.

Hal
There's no way anyone can disprove a comment you may have heard at some point in your life. There are plenty of whackos in this world and it appears there are several in your inner-circle.

If you have ever taken a statistics course you know that you have to discount the one or two extremely unusual results to get a true picture.

Judging Christians by the comments of 1 or 2 people you "may" have heard isn't honest. Would you think it was fair if I said, "oh, you're a liberal? You must be a gay ex-con immigrant on welfare."

vandamm
You answer with just more ranting?

Let me ask you again....

If scientists could identify homosexuals in the womb, and almost all these babies were being aborted, would you have a problem?

The other "pro-choice" posters here should feel free to offer their opinion.

DavidM
"- Reagan runs on conservative, small government ticket wins big twice over two lefties(Carter and Mondale)."

Right now if Reagan was starting he would be run out of the party as a RINO. He was NOT a small governemnt guy check what happened to both spending and government size especially his second term.

"-Bush 41 gets elected on Reagans coattails and succumbs to Democrat Congress and raises taxes."

You ate your young and crucified him also for not invading Iraq. He was defeated by you extreme
conservatives who Reagan was able to keep at bay

"-Raising taxes(and Perot) catapults Clinton into office. Here is some of Clintons campaign slogans: "We are going to reduce the size of government", "We need a middle class tax cut"
-Clinton raises taxes roughly 4 months into office
-94 Elections hand the legislature to Newt Gingrich and his Contract with America - which was no doubt Liberal right Hal?
-Clinton/Congress reduce capital gains taxes and reform Welfare. He is re-elected."

Oh so Clinto was a CONSERVATIVE? Did I get that right? If so you make sense David.

"Shall I go on, or will you point out the glorious liberal campaign which succeeded by saying :
We will raise taxes.
We will give more power the the government.
We will control your health care."

The above is nonsense. What really happened is: Reagan started the use of infrastructure and capital, human and other, and did not replace or maintain it so he could cut taxes (a free lunch). Our education, sciences, healthcare and manufacturing were the best in the world. The result is now they are not. The question for the American voter is do they want to continue this decline or do they want to roll up their sleeves and rebuild the country? How is that?

Vandamm
According to your posts, you and other homosexuals are being "slandered, hurt, attacked, punished, cursed, beat, hanged, and killed"......not sure where you live, but you really should move.

wiseone
Your 2:36 post was great.
I hope your wisdom is heeded.

Vandamm, Robert
Vandamm: Seems you've made up your mind and you don't care what social conservatives have to say. If you're not here for dialogue then, why are you here?

Robert:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_12.asp

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG)

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0141a.html

Icedog
Nope they were mainline military chaplins. And what about your preacher Phellps is it. Oh no there are plenty of "christians" say kill. Isn't there even a "death to fags" website?

Icedog
Vandamm According to your posts, you and other homosexuals are being "slandered, hurt, attacked, punished, cursed, beat, hanged, and killed"......not sure where you live, but you really should move."

Why should they? Shouldn't they be protected? I do agree with Rush on one thing that is get in folks faces and stay there don't let them get away with their nonsense

You were not in Church
Hal Donahue writes: Tuesday, August, 07, 2007 1:53 PM

He heard someone call for murder, killing someone.

A saloon maybe

Folks
Seeing all this abortion talk how about we keep it legal for 40 days or something like that and call it collateral damage? Infants, young children and pregnant women called collateral damage doesn't seem to bother you folks at all.

yes I was being sarcastic but think about it

talent scout
Sadly a military chapel

Hal
I have been in around the military my entire life, and have heard literally dozens of chaplains, I have never heard any of them even hint at what you claim.

My comment to vandamm was a joke....vandamm is full of rhetoric and BS and I was proving a point....there are openly gay people all over this country and their biggest “threat” is the fear someone will ask them to decorate their house.

more to social conservatism than prolife
As Bush himself illustrates, being pro-life doesn't make you conservative.

Isn't immigration a social issue? Bush is hardly conservative there.

And what about race and gender preferences? Bush has supported preferences all along, first by stealth and now pretty openly. The conservative position would be to end them.

I'm not a "religious conservative", but I am a social conservative. I believe social issues like immigration, race and gender preferences, income redistribution, support of traditional marriage, and the culture war in general are extremely important. I'm perfectly happy to make common cause with pro-lifers, but I would like to see these other issues aired. Particularly ending race and gender preferences.

Race and gender preferences were discussed in the 2000 election, and Bush claimed, falsely, to be against them. This time the issue isn't being raised at all. Not by the media and not by the candidates.

I'm sick of being sold out by pro-lifers who claim to be social conservatives. I want the issues that matter to me and my family to be raised and dealt with.

Hal
Without the sarcasm, that's exactly my position. We have no problem with squishing a bug. If we don't believe that the embryo (it doesn't become a fetus until 8 weeks pass, if I remember correctly) is human before 40 days, there's no reason to be otherwise inhibited. If another individual does exist, then we have to consider that individual person's rights.

For something to be collateral damage, it has to be an unintended target. In abortions, the child is the target. There's nothing collateral about it.

Stoic Patriot
Long ago I was told it was a zygote at first and I think then an embryo only when it attached to the womb. Many spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) occur. If we keep going in the direction everyone seems to be going male mastrubation could become a capital crime.

"For something to be collateral damage, it has to be an unintended target. In abortions, the child is the target. There's nothing collateral about it."

Hmmm you do have a point here but many times we know it is going to occur. My point though was we shrug off those deaths why not compromise on abortion? Like first three months do what you want; second, three months you and doctor decide, last three months you doctor and courts decide?

Eyes on the Prize
I'm completely with you on being a social conservative elsewhere other than abortion.

I thought you'd be happier though given Bush's nominees to the Supreme Court (Alito, Roberts) have been instrumental in reducing the power of affirmative action. One more nominee and we might get abortion and affirmative action each eliminated.

I'm disheartened on immigration with the Bush administration and fully agree with you there. The words "build the fence" never really seems to dawn on any of our representatives. Then again, neither does deportation.

On traditional marriage, we've done pretty well. Over 40 of our 50 states have either a constitutional amendment or state statute prohibiting gay marriage, but I think we could do better in ensuring that marriages last longer and people keep to their vows.

Sadly, most of these debates cannot be influenced by legislators directly, but only indirectly by voting for your representatives who then determne who occupies the courts.

icedog
"My comment to vandamm was a joke....vandamm is full of rhetoric and BS and I was proving a point....there are openly gay people all over this country and their biggest “threat” is the fear someone will ask them to decorate their house."

I lived in Denver when Matthew Shepard was killed


Ken - So how's Barbie?
--
Says Ken:

"The most fundamental right is the right to life. Liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and all other rights are rather pointless without the right to life. If an unborn child is a human being - and it is - then it has the right to life.

"Please do not defend abortion in the name of "rights." Abortion itself is the ultimate violation of human rights."

A clear misunderstanding (purposeful?) of the concept of negative rights.

The right to life is a *NEGATIVE* call on other people. It's a "leave me alone" right.

So where does it become a positive right, a demand for support or succor? What human being has - by virtue of his or her existence - a positive right to such support, enforceable by law? And how does another human being - by virtue of his or her existence - become liable for the provision of that support?

Going beyond the institutionalized idiocies of child support (including decades-long financial impositions upon minor male children for their participation in copulation with adult women), what "right" has a child or fetus to one of its mother's paired organs? How about a lobe of the liver? A length of jejunum?

Can Mom (or Dad) be compelled to "donate" a unit of blood if Junior needs it?

The "right to life" of the conception is not a negative right but rather a *POSITIVE* right, imposing costs upon the person of his/her mother.

Has she no right to refuse those costs?

Well, then, she has no rights, has she?

Ken, stop defending pregnancy at gunpoint and pretending it's not enslavement.
--

Ardis
Conservative initiatives that worked?

"Republican Party's Thomas Jefferson: authored Declaration of Independence."

OK I cannot stop laughing again. Enough! I suggest you go to school and get an education and return. Sadly you probably don't even know what I mean

Hal
Bingo! You just made my point....the Matthew Shepard story was the "holy grail" incident for gays and libs.....too bad the "rest of the story" (aka the truth) never got the same press coverage in the MSM.

Hal
Aye. The stages of development are zygote (at conception), then embryo (after first cellular division), then fetus (after 8 weeks, strangely not defined by development).

I don't think anyone shrugs off deaths of innocents. Granted, in war or any conflict we know innocent people will be killed, but there's also a reason why we've developed smart bombs and the rules of engagement. We try as hard as possible to not kill innocent people while still killing our enemies. Now why we place killing our enemies ahead of protecting the innocent is another question, but at the same time by killing our enemies we can argue that we are helping to protect a greater number of innocent people, or so at least that's how just-war theory goes.

Abortion though obviously doesn't involve a war (though there's certainly a war of words on Townhall!), and what's to be gained from killing an innocent human being (perhaps personal convenience) really doesn't seem to measure up against the gains or potential gains from warfare in protecting the lives of innocent people.

I guess the point is that in war you're trading in the same "currency." Killing some so that others may live, trying to make sure as many innocent people as possible live. With abortion, except in cases involving the life of the mother, that tradeoff doesn't exist, and instead it's the kid's life for personal convenience, bodily control, etceteras.

for Vic
Vic writes: "I think most people are like me on these issues. On abortion we look at it as a Constitutional travesty by a liberal court. It was a State issue before Roe and it should go back to being a State issue. As for things like "homosexual rights", these are viewed as another attempt to set up another privileged minority with yet another explosion in litigation."

If that's all that social conservatives meant, they would be a lot less controversial.

But they went a lot further. They pushed for the signing of a Federal Defense of Marriage Act, which if implemented by the states would ban gay/lesbian marriage anywhere. And they and Bush have even suggested we need a Constitutional Amendment if the DoM Act is ever challenged in the courts. For pro-life activists to lobby the Federal Government to force all the individual states to adopt socially conservative social policies, isn't even consistent with the principles of "federalism," which conservatives like Fred Thompson pay lip service to.

If abortion should go back to being a state issue, why do we need a Federal Defense of Marriage Act to treat same-sex marriage at the Federal level? Why can't that also be left up to the individual states?

Some thoughts for SJ Doc
Your comments regarding "negative rights" are correct, but I would also argue that the baby, as a human being, also has these "hands off" rights (as in, hands off and don't stick that fork in my head and suck my brains out). Before you argue that the baby is part of the woman's body, I should remind you (which as a doctor you probably know already) that a baby in its mother's womb has a separate and distinct gentic makeup, blood type, heart, brain, other organs, hair color, complexion, and possibly gender. Being dependent on another human being does not deprive a person of their fundamental rights. For example, you can't kill old people in a nursing home.

It has also been shown that a baby is a perfectly formed human being even in its first trimester and can feel pain at 16 weeks. A question for you: when a doctor operates on a fetus to give a blood transfusion, treat spina bifida, treat a heart condition, etc. who is the patient, the baby or the mother? Another question: If two women are six months pregnant and one has a premature baby and the other has an abortion, what is the difference between the two babies which allows one to be murdered and the other to live?

As a doctor, I'm sure you are also aware of the public health consequences of an abortion. An 8 year study published in the August 2002 Southern Medical Journal points out that women who have an abortion have a 154% higher rate of suicide, a 44% higher rate of death by natural causes, and an 82% higher rate of death by accidents (possible caused by anger, greater risk taking, and other destructive behavior). It also showed that they have a higher incidence rate of alcoholism, drug abuse, cardiovascular disease and AIDS (due it seems to higher drug use). All of these gives a legitimate public interest to regulating or eliminating abortion.

mishaz
"where are your TRUE conservatives?"

I think you're helping Limbaugh make his point. He says the current crop of "social liberals that lead the GOP side of the campaign are long shots because they are not true conservatives.

GWB is not a true conservative. Neither are McCain, Giuliani, or Romney. And I haven't even gotten to illegal immigration or national defense/security yet.

If there is a "true" conservative he will have to emerge from the second tier of candidates. Based purely on their records Hunter and Tancredo fit the description best.

(And NO, Ron Paul is NOT an option. He is not even a Republican.)

SJ
You need to revisit how the whole 'child birth' process happens. It must be initiated be a choice. THAT choice is what is debated here, not speaking as if we are talking about a cancer or tumor.

The next time a woman throws here child in a trashbin, I guess she shouldn't be arrested huh?

After all if an 'abortion doctor' walked in it is perfectly ok? I will bet the pro-babykilling crowd in here cannot even see the slope they slide down.

45 million dead since Roe v Wade. You should all be proud.

vandamm
I'm not going to encourage you any longer. You dodge all questions and trying to decipher your spelling and your rants gives me a headache.

However, for the record, I don't care what you do in your bedroom, in the park restroom, or anywhere else. I couldn't care less about how you define sex.

Just don't expect me or the rest of society to socially or legally endorse your behavior. I know you believe that the internal guilt you feel might go away if society would only recognize your behavior as normal, but don't count on my vote.

Icedog
"Bingo! You just made my point....the Matthew Shepard story was the "holy grail" incident for gays and libs.....too bad the "rest of the story" (aka the truth) never got the same press coverage in the MSM."

Actually I do know the truth but the fact remains it would not have happened if the kid was not gay and confused A long time ago I was a city cop gay bashings were routine. That appears to have finally changed but I can see it coming back.

I guess my position more than anything is while I come from an area where we do not approve of abortion and we do not much care for "alternative" life styles we DAMN sure do not want the government in our homes let alone our bedrooms.

Steve
There's a major reason social conservatives don't push for banning gay marriage at the state-level, and insist on doing so at the federal level. Liberals don't fight fair.

Say I get my state to pass an abortion ban, a gay marriage ban, and I'm happy. Then comes along the U.S. supreme court, and they overturn the law and completely skewer it.

More important than at what level we get our laws passed is the content of said laws. It's not the level of government which social conservatives try to pass laws that make them controversial. It *is* the content. Appeasing some states-rights conservatives won't do a bit of good if half of the country is liberal and will use the court to overturn anything and everything social cons try. As such, fight fire with fire, because like it or not the federal level is where the true power lies.

Oh yeah, Hal
Clinton was not a conservative, but he certainly ran on conservative slogans.

When you have people believing Bush went to war for oil, you can convince them of anything.

By the way, the following article is amazing. If even a tenth of what the man says is true its a HUGE indictment of neo-liberalism.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html

Amazing read.

Stoic Patriot
Do you consider a zygote a person?

DavidM
Great article....it again begs the question, "if libs wanted to aid our enemies, how would they behave differently?"

Hal
Per my 40-day argument, no, I don't. I believe in individual rights, the first of which is life, but then the question is who are these individuals who have rights?

My proposed defining criteria for an individual:

1.) The being in question is an entity which exhibits consciousness
2.) The being in question has the *potential* to understand ideology (not necessarily immediate capacity - after all, I would never say that your rights disappear as soon as you go to sleep). Babies meet this criteria as we witness them grow into adults capable of this all the time, whereas say ants, are prohibited from this by their nature.

for Robert
In 1976, Reagan made his second attempt to win the GOP nomination for President. He challenged the GOP front-runner, Gerald Ford, openly on Ford's foreign policy. But back then, the GOP didn't have a standard "dogma" because after the 1964 Goldwater debacle and after Vietnam and Watergate it was unsure of itself and more open to new ideas. So Reagan's conservatism didn't split the party wide open the way Goldwater's conservatism had done in 1964, when Rockefeller Republicanism was the existing dogma.

Ironically, the "Reagan coalition" has now achieved the status of dogma too, orthodoxy that no Republican dares to challenge without provoking exactly the response we're seeing here. Even though Reagan himself, as you see, ran as an insurgent in 1976.

Now, as back then, any sea-change in GOP thinking isn't going to come in time to save the next election. But it may point the way toward what the GOP has to do to rebuild itself after that. Reagan didn't win the 1976 nomination and Gerald Ford lost the general election anyway. But Reagan laid the groundwork for 1980 and beyond.

OTOH
>When you have people believing Bush went to war for oil, you can convince them of anything.<

or

When you have people believing Saddam was a threat to America, when couldn't even shoot down a US plane over his own country, you can convince them of anything.

DavidM
"When you have people believing Bush went to war for oil, you can convince them of anything."

Or people who believ that ALL those WMDs sneaked in Syria.

"By the way, the following article is amazing. If even a tenth of what the man says is true its a HUGE indictment of neo-liberalism."

I do not know a thing about neo-liberalism. Is that a new word LOL. I do not believe a word from that guy even 10%. Whyever would I?

Robert
On the odd chance that anyone actually reads the guano you post, I will clear up the differences between Roe vs. Wade and Bush vs. Gore.

1. The Supreme Court of the United States (aka "SCOTUS") was upholding Florida's own existing state law that assigns authority over the method for choosing Presidential electors to the Florida Legislature. SCOTUS properly ruled that the Supreme Court of Florida (aka "SCOFLA") had improperly presumed to create a new, unlegislated standard with its instructions on how ballots should be interpreted in its order for another hand recount.

In short, SCOTUS merely overruled SCOFLA's interpretation of Florida's existing law. It did not declare any law to be unconstitutional and did not legislate from the bench.

2. The matter presented to SCOTUS was unquestionably one in which the federal government had a direct interest; who would be the next President. In 'Roe' Justice Blackmun goes miles out his way to 'prove' that the government has no interest in abortion and then remarkably concludes that this means the state law banning it must be unconstitutional. If the goivernment has no interest in abortion then SCOTUS should not have taken the case.

3. Hand recounts done after the fact by the MSM show that Bush would have won Florida even if Gore had won a recount per SCOFLA's partisan ruling.

4. Finally, read my third paragraph under my item 2, in which I discuss an 'imperial' judiciary. This is exactly what SCOFLA became during the recount.

Stoic Patriot
That is a compromise worth discussing but I doubt many here support it. That is the problem when religion gets involved in politics - compromise with the "word of god" is impossible. Lack of compromise is fatal to a free society

Pancho the fool
When you have people believing Saddam was a threat to America, when couldn't even shoot down a US plane over his own country, you can convince them of anything.

When was Milosevic a threat to this country? Did he have WMDs? Why did Clinton give Haliburton no bid contracts during and after that conflict? Why are you more apt to believe Saddam over Bush? Do you honestly believe Saddam can violate the cease-fire he signed and we do nothing?(I guess we can when a limp wristed Dhimmicrat is in office)

Last question: Are you a complete tool or do you just play one on this board?


Ah, the Stoic brought him
--
The supposed "Patriot" (who really ought to know that "we" - I presume he has a tapeworm? - have no need to defend my "right to own a gun" when the 2nd Amendment explicitly criminalizes any government officer's effort to infringe upon that right) is waffling so hard that one can smell the maple syrup over the Internet.

His temporaization to "...support banning abortion after 40 days into a pregnancy because that's when a kid becomes conscious" is proof of more beyond the narrow gauge of his intellect, much less his non-existent appreciation of the Bill of Rights (including the 5th Amendment about which he fantasizes).

Little hint, Stoic: as with all the rest of the Constitution, Article 5 of the Amendments has prescriptive and proscriptive powers *ONLY* over the actions of the officers of government. There are no "Fifth Amendment rights," but only 5th Amendment prohibitions upon what government goons may lawfully do with regard to certain individual rights.

Second nudge, Stoic. There's no such thing as "a conflict of rights." There may be disagreement as to who *HAS* the right in any situation of contract or tort - to act or to refrain, to receive or to deny, to possess or to be dispossessed - but the concept of *negative* rights admits not even the possibility of such conflict.

Is it possible for any law (or court of law) to decide that the right of "the unborn" supercedes the right of the pregnant woman to dispose of her own body - her own most intimate and necessary personal property?

Can she be required by law to put her body at the service of that fetus simply because it has an EED reading compatible with "conscious" status?

If so, how? On what grounds may an officer of government act to fulfill your desire for the enslavement of pregnant women when there is no power in law (much less practical means) whereby they may act?
--

Hal
Not to be a blowhard, but in all honesty, I advocate for the position because I think it's correct rather than a sensible compromise. If I tried making everybody happy back in 1861 for instance, we'd still have slavery everywhere south of D.C. =P Not to say that compromise is without merit, it certainly has plenty, but in some cases a principled stand is essential. It just so happens that mine lies between the 2 extremes on this issue (oh, what irony!)

Most of the folks I find on Townhall are actually libertarian rather than conservative, and tend to consider a woman's right to her body the ultimate right. As such, they support the pro-choice position whole hog, and getting people to compare rights, side-by-side, does involve pulling a whole lot of teeth.

for Ken
Ken writes: "When are we going to realize that pro-abortion is a LOSING position?"

But Guiliani is not pro-abortion. To claim that he actually is in favor of women getting abortions is a vicious slander. In fact, he said the reverse. In fact, you won't even find Hillary getting on TV and saying "I like the idea of women getting abortions."

What they have said, is that they like the idea of free American adult women setting and having their own moral standards. There is no contradiction in this. Dick Cheney, the Vice President of the U.S., doesn't have the same moral code as his lesbian daughter, who just had a baby born into her lesbian relationship. So be it. She's an adult, she's an American, she's a free citizen, and she can set her own moral standards as to how she wants to run her family. Even if those moral standards aren't the same as either yours or her dad's.

The U.S. Constitution didn't come with a predefined national moral code on these social issues.

And what people like you refuse to accept, is that this is a moral stance too. It just doesn't happen to be the same as yours.


DavidM
"You need to revisit how the whole 'child birth' process happens. It must be initiated be a choice. THAT choice is what is debated here, not speaking as if we are talking about a cancer or tumor."

A surprizingly large number of women worldwide do not have a "choice" their body is just "used". What do you say then?


Who said
I agreed with bombing Serbia, DavidM?

But thanks for the feeble attempt to insult, dropping your credibility to zero.

Stoic Patriot
According to so many here slavery had nothing to do with the civil war LOL. That said when compromise fails like it did back then there are only two options: submission or bloodshed. Religion makes those "flash points" more numerous and likely

SJ_Doc
Your counter-argument to Ken is well presented, but I have a question.

How do you differentiate a woman's 'right' to abortion from her 'right' to abandon her child after birth? Or to allow her child to suffer or die from neglect? Why is she legally obligated to care for and nurture her child until the child can fend for himself?

"Has she no right to refuse those costs?

Well, then, she has no rights, has she?"

SJDoc
I think your right to own a gun might need to be defended anyway, SJDoc. Not sure if you've heard, but some would interpret the 2nd amendment as granting you a firearm only if you're part of a militia.

My narrow gauge of intellect? This is gonna be a hoot! The fifth amendment states that no person shall be denied life, liberty, or property without due process of law. You can *interpret* that to mean it only controls the government, or you can interpret that as granting rights. It's not explicit, and I would interpret it as the latter.

My point on a conflict of rights was a simple one. We say there's a right to own a gun. Ownership implies sovereignty over that item, but obviously we can't shoot one another. We could argue one of two things. Either 1.) We were using ownership then in a figurative/limited way, or 2.) There is a conflict, and who's actually correct depends upon what right takes priority.

Yes, it's possible for law to decide that the right of a child to live takes priority over the right of a woman to choose what to do with her own body in the event that doing so kills the innocent child.

She can indeed be required by law. Here's how. First, you can get the Supreme Court to change their intepretation of the 5th amendment, but if that doesn't suit you, you can go to an alternative. You write a little bill saying "No person may kill babies who have gained consciousness, whether or not they reside within the womb." You then get your legislators to vote on said bill. If they vote, and they manage to acquire a majority, the bill becomes law. Shocking, I know! But I thought a mind as expansive and as brilliant as yours would've comprehended this deep and involved process.

Slavery? Hardly. It's known as defending individual rights, and preventing the murder of the preborn.

Hal
Granted. Then again, the same can be said for secularism. Witness Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Tse Tung. The 3 great dictators of the 20th century, all atheists. Being an atheist myself, I tread cautiously. =P

Stoic Patriot
"Granted. Then again, the same can be said for secularism. Witness Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Tse Tung. The 3 great dictators of the 20th century, all atheists. Being an atheist myself, I tread cautiously. =P"

Actually not true. Those are classic examples of people who became "gods" to their followers. You will notice each developed a cult following and denied compromise and claimed the exclusive right to "Correct knowledge". Secular religion if you will.

ThighMaster
"Am I to guess that you mean prostitutes?"

I didn't think of them but many with pimps yes. How about women in homes or fundementalist Muslim or Christian homes? How about women in very poor countries with zero access to birth control? How about woman trapped in loveless marriages with no way out?

Hal
Aye. The cult of personality's a dangerous thing. At least in Germany and Russia, they gave it up. Sadly, China still strictly follows this with the 1-party state.

ardis, the confused and gormless
--
Poor kid. She's got the Declaration of Independence (which was uttered as an eplanation for what was an act of secession from the British Empire) confused with a charter of civil government.

ardis, the proper role of government in civil society is the management (objective and even-handedly, it is hoped) of lethal force in retaliation against the violation of individual rights.

It doesn't protect anybody's rights. It's not supposed to, and that's because it can't. All it can do is to raise the "transaction costs" associated with theft and rape and extortion and murder.

Instead, of course, it tends to become an institution that *PRACTICES* theft and extortion and murder (with a little rape on the side).

What you want government to do is simply not within government's practical power to accomplish, and even if it *WERE* possible for the gun-toting goons of government to do everything you ache for, would have such an impact upon the civil society in which you live that your neightbors would be more than sufficiently justified in soaking your house with gasoline and burning you to death while you slept tonight.

Now, no matter how much you might be hankering for martyrdom, I think that the effect on residential property values is sufficiently adverse to try - gently, but persuasively - to convince you that the "downside" of the criminalization of abortion is off-putting to the point at which your efforts to secure it are fundamentally (don'tcha love that word?) insane.

As I've said to the rest of your ilk and your kith and your kin, if you get what you want in this regard, if you widen the scope of those who govern to enable them to put their Pregnancy Police on the street, just what the hell makes you think that your enemies - who are going to be all wonderfully "politically motivated" by your success - won't grab this power in both hands and turn it against *YOU*?

SJ Doc
"As I've said to the rest of your ilk and your kith and your kin, if you get what you want in this regard, if you widen the scope of those who govern to enable them to put their Pregnancy Police on the street, just what the hell makes you think that your enemies - who are going to be all wonderfully "politically motivated" by your success - won't grab this power in both hands and turn it against *YOU*? "

With any luck at all that is already happening. I know they keep me energised LOL

Stoic Patriot
You are a little out of date on gun rights issues.
The individuals right to own firearms as been decided in the Courts long ago.

That Leftist militia crap has been overturned and buried.

stoic patriot
it would seem that the cult of personality does exist around alldull and his globull warming scam. That his acolytes will threaten to attack any and all who either question his theories or challenge his lifestyle

Wildwest
You're right on the mark. As someone who lives in an area where human-caused global warming is dogma, I can attest to the notion that you'll be laughed out and dogged if you dare speak ill of Al Bore or question the statistical practices behind how they come up with their measures.

MyOpine - never count out the potential for the left to revive a bad idea. They're still trying to bring back the fairness doctrine.

wildwest
we prefer to say vehemently refute. Kerry taught us to not take it any longer. So as usual we are now beginning to do it better than you folks.

Folks
Well I must get going perhaps later. Be well and enjoy the evening

Vandam
your ingorance of US history is apparent.
Many of the founding fathers were against slavery and spoke at great lengths on the subject.

Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).


Founding Fathers and slavery..
Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more.

In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.


Ditto that
Your comments are right on. I've said similar things on my site, but yours were more in-depth.

http://hostilethoughts.blogspot.com/

hal
the only thing that keery accepts without question is his walking orders from his missus. All our side is saying about alldull is that it is not settled science. No one has said the environment should not be protected nor does anyone advocate trashing the environment. But we do find it strange that alldull feels the need to consume energy at 20 times the rate of normal individuals while he lectures us on our energy use. Inb keeping the debate alive you seek solutions and remedies and not blindly accept alldulls unrealistic projections. Further his carbon offset scam that he uses to line his own pockets is certainly subject to further discussion and investigation or do you believe his snake oil salesmans remedy as fact

cat trapper
i asked vandamn which country in europe is he from. I just have the feeling he is not from america. His postings and conclusions seem more at home with what we hear from european socialist. He fails to reply to most questions but keeps his wild accusations and assumptions coming

wildwest
a common tactic among liberals and the misinformed... but then I'm being redundant.

Oh
Hal Donahue writes: Tuesday, August, 07, 2007 3:22 PM
talent scout
Sadly a military chapel
--------

And of course not from the Minister, but, one who needed to listen and not speak.

Perhaps he understood this and why he was in church but had yet to hear the preaching.

Its wrong to insinuate Christians teach murder Hal, its called truthfully, lying.

will
I think you are wrong about the present Democrat front runners.
I doubt they have a prayer against the RINO front runners.

I wish the Democrats would put forward a viable candidate just in case we get stuck with another RINO candidate.
You need to do better than this.
http://www.kerrystreason.com/index.html

Good article David..
America, at its core is still a conservative country. The GOP can not, and will not win unless it returns to its core values, both fiscally and socially. I've said it before and I'll say it agian if the GOP doesn't "straighten up and fly right" it is prehaps time for another trip to the ole' woodshed.

Will, Will
"Hey, social conservatives. Step up to the plate. What ever happened to conservatives being the party of not POLICING the world & people's bedrooms??"

1.) Conservatism is not a political party.
2.) Social and Neoconservatism are very much involved in that. They never claimed to not be.

Perhaps you're mistaking social and neoconservatives for paleoconservatives and libertarians? The Republican party does have its differences, and despite being a social conservative, I've yet to argue for a flat-earth theory, or even that abortion should be illegal in all circumstances, despite perhaps being the most strident assailant against abortion on Townhall.

A Tancredo candidacy would be a disaster. Making Hunter VP is a good idea, but he'd need someone to play the part of president. Right now, I'm thinking that'll be Romney or Thompson.