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Friday, July 06, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Libby's Clemency Justified, Unlike Many Clinton Pardons
by David Limbaugh
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I understand the angst of certain rule of law proponents upset by President Bush's commutation of Scooter Libby's conviction. But most of the people outraged by it have no credibility, since they were utterly indifferent to the Clintons' habitual mockery of the rule of law and prolific and shady abuse of the pardon power during their co-presidency.

As the president clearly has the constitutional authority to pardon or commute sentences for almost any reason, the issue isn't one of authority, but propriety.

As a rule of law conservative I don't take lightly such executive interventions in the judicial process, believing our judicial system depends on the integrity of our jury system and the impartial administration of justice.

I understand that it might appear like cronyism for the president, after the justice system has taken its course to convict and sentence a member of his administration, to reduce the sentence, especially given the president's affirmations of confidence in the special prosecutor handling the case.

That said, I still believe Scooter Libby is a worthy candidate for clemency and even pardon. This case has never been about Libby. He has merely been the scapegoat for the Bush-hating left, which has been lusting to criminalize the administration over the president's fraudulently alleged misrepresentations about Iraqi WMD.

Thus, when the news broke that someone had leaked the identity of Joe Wilson's allegedly, but doubtfully covert CIA spouse, Valerie Plame, liberals immediately adopted the irreversible assumption that the "leak" was orchestrated by the administration and implemented by one or more of its key players.

But we know beyond any doubt that Richard Armitage, not Libby, was the leaker. Since Libby had committed no "underlying" crime, he had no motive to commit perjury. He had nothing to cover up.

Nevertheless, Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald was able to secure a perjury conviction against Libby based on inconsistent statements he made involving conversations he'd had. Others also caught in inconsistent statements were not only not charged with perjury, but lavished with praise by the mainstream media.

Libby represents the liberals' pound of flesh for Bush's mythical WMD lies. Driven by the very sordid type of revenge motive they falsely projected onto the administration, they scapegoated Libby. To this day, these liberals don't care about perjury -- they nearly glorified it during the Clinton years. This is still about the leak. Yet there was no administration leak.

If I were Bush, I would pardon Libby because I don't believe he is guilty and I don't believe he should have to shoulder the punishment for the liberals' fabricated Bush-lied "crime." I believe that at worst, Libby's memory is fallible, like all the rest of us. If I believed he actually lied deliberately to the court -- I wouldn't favor clemency.

But think about this. By commuting Libby's sentence, or pardoning him, Bush is hurting himself in order to grant mercy to someone else. Regardless of conservative support for leniency, history books will doubtlessly record this as a cloud on Bush's integrity.

The Clintons, by contrast, abused the pardon power to help themselves, their family, friends and contributors. Their use of the power differed in kind rather than degree with Bush's.

We've recently been reminded of the rash of Clinton pardons at the close of their second term in exchange for political contributions and other self-serving reasons. But even before that black mark on America's presidential history, I chronicled in my first book Clinton's abuse of the power to pardon FALN terrorists to boost Hillary's popularity with Puerto Rican voters in her New York Senate race.

He did so, even though the Justice Department's recently released Five-Year Interagency Counterterrorism and Technology Crime Plan concluded the release of FALN members would heighten the risk of domestic terrorism. He did so, despite the opposition of the FBI, the Bureau of Prisons and various United States attorneys. He did so despite the fact that between 1974 and 1983, FALN bombed more than 130 American military, business, and political "targets," the most devastating of which killed four and injured more than 60 in lower Manhattan in 1975.

Scooter Libby represents a threat to no one. Yet the liberals who are squealing the loudest about Libby are the very ones who pooh poohed Clinton's abuses and ignored his FALN and other indisputably improper pardons.

For all the talk about Bush violating procedure by granting clemency before Libby formally requested it, the Clintons set the precedent on that practice as well, proceeding with the FALN pardons before they were requested. And if you needed further proof, the Clintons' pardons were politically motivated, understand that they even took the unprecedented action of recruiting people like Jimmy Carter to lobby them for the pardons.

Two wrongs don't make a right. But I truly don't believe Libby's clemency is wrong or selfishly motivated. There is no question that many of the Clintons' were.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Tenore2 wrote:

"You keep insisting that I must be some low level idiot who never cracked a book."

I wrote no such thing. That you would infer my refutations as me calling you an idiot says nothing about me.

I said that you should learn about Fitzgerald before you impugn his character. You ridiculed the profiles I provided to help you, and then started this bizarre twisting of my statements by responding to "You do yourself great discredit by slandering Fitzgerald without even bothering to learn about the man" with "If you have something to say that is along the lines that us illiterate and common folks can understand, be my guest."

Your reply seems to indicate that you found my statement haughty, arrogant, hurtful, wrong, or in some other way insulting. Perhaps I should have written "without learning" instead of "without even bothering to learn." But really, that doesn't capture my thought, which was that there are so many on the right who are quick to judge Fitzgerald based on incomplete information.

"You... have taken a position that you are the only one who knows anything."

Hardly. Just because I back up my assertions with facts and argue against baseless assertions by others does not show such a belief. That you say so, continuing to try to reshape this discussion into something other than one of the facts at issue, says nothing about me.

Good day, sir.

.

BS
This is my last response to you.

You don't know anything about me; but I never called your intelligence into question. I read at least 30 books a year; mostly history, study scriptures intensely, run a small computer base system, at one time I ssng professionally (opera), I have degree in mathematics, I designed a programmed many processes, and spend several hours a week participating in work for my Church. I have just bee diagnosed with bone cancer which I intend to fight vigorously.

You keep insisting that I must be some low level idiot who never cracked a book. You, my friend (all of God's children are my friends, even those I disagree with) have taken a position that you are the only one who knows anything. Snide remarks are snide remarks no matter who says them (including me; one of my faults I'm trying to overcome; I believe the problem began while cursing a cow I was milking many years ago).

By the way; have you ever milked a cow by hand; great therapy. You learn something about yourself when doing such menial tasks.

Good luck; have a nice day. We both might benefit by realizing that there are more serious problems in this world.

Tenore
"It is impossible to talk to someone who has jelled his mental and emotional pysche."

This back-and-forth started with me saying "You do yourself great discredit by slandering Fitzgerald without even bothering to learn about the man." Since then, I've been responding to your attacks on me, and asking you direct questions that you don't want to answer. Fair enough.

"What is your point; so I'm a hypocrite in your eyes; big deal."

Nope, pretty clear you're a hypocrite, period. You think Libby's prosecution was unjustified because you don't think there was an underlying crime (which Fitzgerald contends is BECAUSE of Libby's obstruction), and you think Clinton's impeachment was justified despite the lack of any underlying crime (indicated by the summary dismissal of the case).

"If you want to make a point; you don't have to write a book every time you respond;"

Hmmm. I've read a few books, and few are as short as my posts here. I mean, the ones without pictures that is.

"I hope they grow up with compassion for someone as closed minded as you seem to be."

Closed-minded? You have to be kidding me. Remember, this started with me telling you that you should learn about Fitzgerald, and you responded by saying "Sorry, I can only measure this man's character by the stupidity exhibited in pursuing the prosecution... By the way, any editorials, comments, etal., from CNN, PBS or BBC [or the Washington Post] carry no weight with me and I doubt it does with anyone who has any common horse sense... If you have something to say that is along the lines that us illiterate and common folks can understand, be my guest."

I'M closed-minded? You refuse a request for you to learn about a man before you impugn his character, and I'M closed-minded?

"the reality to me was, in my humble opinion..."

Your opinion is far from humble.

"...Libby was unfaily targeted. I can't understand why you can not see that this action served no valid purpose since there never was a crime in the first instance."

Strange that both Fitzgerald, a (heretofore) respected non-partisan prosecutor, and Walton, a Republican-appointed judge, both believe that Libby obstructed the investigation of an actual underlying crime. You base your belief on - what? On whose version of the story do you rely?

"By the way; why (you don't need to answer) was Clinton's law licensed taken away by the State of Arkansas?"

I'm happy to answer. His license was suspended as part of the agreement ending the investigation of Robert Ray, wherein Clinton admitted to false and misleading statements. Didn't you hear? Maybe you should look into it.

"One last comment; why wasn't Sandy Burger sent to prison?"

Sigh. Because he reached a plea bargain with the Bush Justice Department. Didn't you hear? Maybe you should look into it.

Libby would also have avoided prison by making such a deal, but for some strange reason he didn't.

.

Good Grief; BS
It is impossible to talk to someone who has jelled his mental and emotional pysche.

What is your point; so I'm a hypocrite in your eyes; big deal.

I thought everyone, even a felon like Rich was entitled to legal representation. I guess that any atty who represents a "bad" guy must also be bad.

If you want to make a point; you don't have to write a book every time you respond; I have an autistic 24 year old daughter who needs my attention. I'm 76 and have 21 grandchildren. I hope they grow up with compassion for someone as closed minded as you seem to be. I certainly hold no ill feelings toward you; I don't even have any ill feelings toward your hero. (By the way, your not really Fitzgerald are you? Hmmm. Just a thought.) the reality to me was, in my humble opinion, Libby was unfaily targeted. I can't understand why you can not see that this action served no valid purpose since there never was a crime in the first instance.

By the way; why (you don't need to answer) was Clinton's law licensed taken away by the State of Arkansas?

One last comment; why wasn't Sandy Burger sent to prison?

Tenore

You didn't answer the question. I'll come back to it.

"Was Clinton the president when he lied to the American people?"

Of course he was.

"Was Clinton president when he was charged, and found guilty (at least he lost his law license) of lying in his own defense?"

No. He was charged by the House of Representatives and was acquitted by the Senate. You didn't hear? Maybe you should look into it.

"Finally, does President Bush have the constitutional authority to issue the commutation?"

Of course he does. I never said anything contrary to this statement.

Now, back to the question you didn't answer:

"Do you think that Starr's charges against Clinton were unwarranted, since the underlying lawsuit (Jones) was dismissed because it had no merit?"

"I'm not a hypocrite!"

Sure you are. Just admit it and move on.

.

BS
I'm not a hypocrite! OK!

Here's your chance:

Was Clinton the president when he lied to the American people?

Was Clinton president when he was charged, and found guilty (at least he lost his law license) of lying in his own defense?

Finally, does President Bush have the constitutional authority to issue the commutation?

If he does, end of story!!!!

Tenore

"You must be a master at copying and pasting."

It's called research - you might try it.

"To put it simply; juries, judges, even lawyers are not infallible. I don't care how many appeals are turned down; if the person was in fact innocent, then their decisions (while they may be legal)are still wrong."

True, but irrelevant. Answer me this; how many of those wrongfully put to death had legal defense funds in seven figures? How many of the wrongfully convicted are represented by one of the very best criminal defense attorneys in the country?

"From my limited knowledge, the whole concept of outing the "Flame" was based on there being no flame to put out; unless Wilson got a sunburn in Niger (not Nigeria)."

In your attempt at cleverness you did a good job of obscuring your point.

Here's another question for you. Do you think that Starr's charges against Clinton were unwarranted, since the underlying lawsuit (Jones) was dismissed because it had no merit?

Here's your chance to say that YOU are not a hypocrite.

.

More and more BS
You must be a master at copying and pasting.

First, where you read that I'm against the death penalty; I'm definitely not. However that was not the question.

To put it simply; juries, judges, even lawyers are not infallible. I don't care how many appeals are turned down; if the person was in fact innocent, then their decisions (while they may be legal)are still wrong. I recognize that mistakes will occur and one (or more) mistake does not mean that the process (death penalty) should be abandoned.

It is my naive belief that any time it appears that a particular action will be based on a real crime, not a manufactured one, it is justified. From my limited knowledge, the whole concept of outing the "Flame" was based on there being no flame to put out; unless Wilson got a sunburn in Niger (not Nigeria).

Why don't we drop the whole subject; President Bush has and continues to have every right to commute Libby's sentence; he even has the right to pardon him if his appeals fail.

EVEN IF LIBBY IS AS GUILTY AS SIN!

THE CLINTON LOVERS (BOTH GENDERS) CAN RANT AND RAVE ALL THEY WANT; THEY JUST EXPOSE THEIR OWN HYPOCRISY!

Tenore wrote:

Lots of contention stuff shortly after writing that I should lighten up.

"Sorry, I can only measure this man's character by the stupidity exhibited in pursuing the prosecution."

Fitzgerald's prosecution of Libby was necessary because Libby's obstruction impeded his investigation into possible wrongdoing by others in the White House. This prosecution was a no-brainer. A typical person caught in Libby's predicament would have accepted a plea bargain rather than face prison. Why would Libby not make such a deal, especially when his lawyers argued that he was thrown under the bus by the White House?

"I have heard rumors of his potential to run for office. Again, I don't know and I don't care."

Oh, but you do care. You care enough to talk badly about a man when it suits you, regardless of the nature of the man, or the level of information you have.

"You are, I suppose, a well qualified lawyer but your lengthy, and boring posts, are really a waste of time."

You make an interesting supposition. As for wasting time, isn't that what we're all doing here? Has any person posted anything on any townhall.com message board that has ever led to anything of consequence in any area of human life?

"Again, Scooter Libby has a stellar reputation and served his country well."

This is the man who represented Marc Rich; do you believe lawyers should just accept clients based on their ability to pay or also on the nature of the work? Libby worked to gain a pardon for Marc Rich - does this hurt your opinion of him?

"If there was a cover-up, then Fitzgerald should have proven that..."

Perhaps you don't understand what "obstruction of justice" means.

"...not that there was a difference in his memory versus others."

And his own notes. Let me get this straight. His notes show that he learned about Valerie Wilson from Cheney on or about June 12. Undersecretary of State Grossman testified that he told Libby the same thing a day or two later. Then over the next month, he had conversations testified to by seven other witnesses where Wilson's employment was discussed; some of these conversations he initiated. Then, he said, he learned of Ms. Wilson's employment from Tim Russert on July 10 or July 11 (which Russert denies), somehow forgetting all of those conversations over the previous months. But then, he said, Libby told Matt Cooper on July 12 that Libby didn't even know Wilson had a wife (which Cooper denies was ever said).

Memory problems. Right.

"By the way, any editorials, comments, etal., from CNN, PBS or BBC [or the Washington Post] carry no weight with me and I doubt it does with anyone who has any common horse sense."

Did you read them? If not, what are you afraid of? Finding out that you're dead wrong about Fitzgerald? Where did you hear "rumors of his potential to run for office"?

Maybe you could provide me a list of your "acceptable" publications. How's the AP? Just in case you're too busy to follow a link, I'll pull some paragraphs:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173610,00.html

"The attorney behind the CIA leak investigation has taken on Democrats at Chicago City Hall as well as Republicans at the White House in a career that has included chasing terrorists and the mob...

"The 44-year-old New Yorker, now Chicago's chief federal prosecutor, is digging into Mayor Richard M. Daley's political empire, and corruption charges are flowing. At the same time he has been probing the disclosure of a CIA agent's identity in an investigation reaching to President Bush's top aides.

"He's also behind the prosecution of former Gov. George Ryan on charges that Ryan steered contracts to friends and insiders in return for free vacations and other gifts while he was Illinois secretary of state during the 1990s...

"So intense has been his probe of payoffs and fraud at City Hall that rumors are flying about a possible effort by politicians to get Fitzgerald out of town. He brushes aside such questions.

"'I'm just going to do my job until the telephone rings and somebody tells me not to,' he said...

"He graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Amherst College and then from Harvard Law School. After a three-year stint in a private law firm, he joined the U.S. attorney's office in Manhattan, getting in on some high-profile cases and eventually heading the anti-terrorist unit.

"In 1993, he helped jail a Gambino crime family capo and three other mobsters for murder, racketeering, narcotics trafficking and other crimes.

"He helped send Omar Abdel Rahman (search) to federal prison for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and conspiring to blow up bridges and buildings.

"And he supervised the 1996 trial of three men who plotted to blow up 12 airliners.

"Fitzgerald also brought charges that Usama bin Laden and 22 of his followers conspired to murder Americans and were responsible for the August 1998 bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa. Four defendants went to trial and are serving life.

"Since he arrived in Chicago in 2001, dozens of city workers and trucking executives have been indicted in a payoff investigation, including the former boss at the city water department who was a political powerhouse.

"In April, agents raided City Hall and came away with piles of records — resulting in fraud charges against two city officials from the mayor's family's home ward...

"Matthew Piers... represented Enaam Arnaout, the head of a defunct Muslim charity whom Fitzgerald charged with funneling aid to al-Qaida. He said Fitzgerald, using an old photo showing Arnaout with bin Laden, hyped charges against his client as fear swept the country after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

"Arnaout made a last-minute deal to plead guilty to defrauding his donors. He is serving 11 years."

-----

"If you have something to say that is along the lines that us illiterate and common folks can understand, be my guest."

You're clearly not illiterate and we're all common folks. But, by all means, go ahead and degrade yourself all you like.

"Incidentally, I noted that you said somewhere that a guilty verdict by a jury means he's guilty. Tell that to some of those who were executed mistakenly. Guilty means you actually DID the crime. I respect the jury system, but it is not infallable. And neither is Fitzgerald!"

That's why we have judges. And appellate panels. And those judges who read the court record found no significant likelihood that the verdict would be overturned on appeal. A jury of his peers found him guilty. It's amazing to me how some law-and-order types are so willing to abandon the rule of law when it doesn't suit them politically.

As for the executed innocents, should I take from this statement that you're against the death penalty? Or is it just penalties against loyal Bushies that you can't bear?

.

More BS
I have the same "respect" for the fair and balanced Washington Post.

Incidentally, I noted that you said somewhere that a guilty verdict by a jury means he's guilty.

Tell that to some of those who were executed mistakenly.

Guilty means you actually DID the crime. I respect the jury system, but it is not infallable. And neither is Fitzgerald!

A Lot of BS
Sorry, I can only measure this man's character by the stupidity exhibited in pursuing the prosecution.

You may be his best buddy, his dad, or his brother, or have some other relationship with him; I don't know and I don't care.

I have heard rumors of his potential to run for office. Again, I don't know and I don't care.

You are, I suppose, a well qualified lawyer but your lengthy, and boring posts, are really a waste of time. I doubt that very many read them carefully.

Again, Scooter Libby has a stellar reputation and served his country well. If there was a cover-up, then Fitzgerald should have proven that, not that there was a difference in his memory versus others. This should never have happened.

By the way, any editorials, comments, etal., from CNN, PBS or BBC carry no weight with me and I doubt it does with anyone who has any common horse sense.

If you have something to say that is along the lines that us illiterate and common folks can understand, be my guest.

Tenore2 wrote:

"As I've before, it appears that on overzealous prosecutor needed to jusify spending millions of taxpayer's dollars. He also has been trying VERY HARD to make a name for himself. When is he going to announce for public office, I wonder?"

You do yourself great discredit by slandering Fitzgerald without even bothering to learn about the man. You should start here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55560-2005Feb1.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6451181.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/25/fitzgerald.profile.txt/index.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec05/fitzgerald_8-8.html

.

Foxfire22 (Is that correct?)
You know as well as I do that most "farmers" are men of their word. They don't try to parse language in order to confuse others as to their real meaning.

They also don't retreat to the ploy "I don't remember" in order to avoid telling the truth. Now I really don't know what Scooter did or did not say, or whether he was outright lying; but I honestly believe he could have had some memory problems; I can testify that the "memory" problem can be insidious. I don't believe he was outright lying, and there seems to be no sense in this prosecution. As I've before, it appears that on overzealous prosecutor needed to jusify spending millions of taxpayer's dollars. He also has been trying VERY HARD to make a name for himself.

When is he going to announce for public office, I wonder?

By the way, I hope you see the humor in the farmer's life style; I really miss those old days with the two-seater outhouse. It gave you someone to talk to in the cold of the night; or the heat of the day. Wasn't plowing a lot of fun?

I had an uncle who always used a team of horses to plow; of course when he would get to the end of row, he would pull on the reins and "whoa, whoa" and turn the team around.

Well he was finally convince to buy a tractor and learned how to drive it around the barnyard. When it was determined that he had the necessary skill to use the tractor for plowing they let him at it. The only problem came at the end of the row; he pulled back hard on the steering wheel and yelled "whoa, whoa,.." Well you might guess the words he used when ran into the head-ditch and went down into it.

It might be nice if some of the poster "BS Detective" for example would lighten up. Hate ot say "MR BS" but I hope you sleep well.

Have a great one. Maybe we will have an opportunity for further dialogue.

Bobbyrx wrote:

"Most of Libby's conversations with reporters were answering questions about Plame brought up by the reporters, not initiated by him..."

I believe the testimony indicates that the only reporters to whom Libby spoke about Plame prior to Novak's column were Judith Miller and Matt Cooper. I don't believe Libby said he spoke to any other reporters about Plame. Miller said that Libby told her about Plame. What reason do we have to doubt her? She spent 85 days in jail rather than testify about her conversations with Libby. Cooper had been previously told of Plame's occupation by Karl Rove, which Libby confirmed.

"if the goal was to out Plame to get back at Wilson for the op-ed piece, then revealing that his wife was in the CIA would make his story seem more credible not less"

Perhaps. But he goal was to marginalize the importance of the trip, to frame it as something arranged by the wife for the husband.

"and if the motive was to destroy her career to get back at Wilson, there would be a lot better ways to do that than what Libby supposedly did."

Honestly, I don't think they cared what happened to her career. I don't think they cared that losing her might be a loss for US intelligence capabilities.

"Why would they have knowingly outed a covert CIA agent, knowing full well an investigation would occur and come back straight to them. It would just not be worth it."

Why would the administration hype bogus intelligence to sell the war, knowing the truth would come out eventually?

Why would the administration perform wireless wiretapping covered by FISA without the approval of the FISA court, simply because it was a little inconvenient?

Why would the administration move prisoners to foreign countries so they could be tortured without the knowledge of the American people?

Why would they modify scientific papers and conclusions for political and public relations reasons?

Why would White House political staff violate the Hatch Act by providing campaign briefings to government employees using government facilities?

Why would White House Counsel claim that it can legitimately block testimony by staff in the US Attorneys probe when the President claims to have had no knowledge of any deliberations or discussions prior to the firings?

The actions this administration has taken in a large number of areas show that it has little fear of reprisals for doing whatever it wants, regardless of the law.

.

questions for B.S.D.
your opinion:
1) Most of Libby's conversations with reporters were answering questions about Plame brought up by the reporters, not initiated by him, and there were a large # of reporters he talked with during this time in which Plame was not talked about at all. To me , if the goal was to out Plame to get back at Wilson for the op-ed piece, then revealing that his wife was in the CIA would make his story seem more credible not less and if the motive was to destroy her career to get back at Wilson, there would be a lot better ways to do that than what Libby supposedly did.
2) Why would they have knowingly outed a covert CIA agent, knowing full well an investigation would occur and come back straight to them. It would just not be worth it.
Thanks

foxfire22 wrote:

"Did Armitage leak the Identity or not?"

Yes, to Novak.

"Was it a crime or not?"

Only if he was aware that she was covert.

"Who could Libby have been protecting if it was not Armitage?"

Libby could have been protecting himself, if we thought he was in jeopardy, or he could have been protecting somebody else in the White House, the most obvious choice being Cheney.

"Why would Libby lie to protect someone who was not involved in the leak?"

I can think of no reason for Libby to lie except to obstruct the investigation.

"If Armitage did leak the identity, and if it was Rove or Cheney who was behind it, why didn't Armitage testify to the fact, being the source of the leak?"

Armitage learned about Plame from the June 10 INR memo, not from Rove or Cheney.

"So far it doesn't seem reasonable that motive has been proven."

If Libby thought he was in jeopardy for prosecution for the leak, he had motive to lie. If revealing Plame's occupation was part of the plan within the White House to discredit Joe Wilson, he had motive to lie.

"I have stated things from recollection that occurred sometime ago and found that I was not totally accurate."

Sure. But, for example, Libby testified that when he talked to Matt Cooper, he didn't know that Joe Wilson had a wife. This was contradicted by multiple government witnesses who had previous discussions with Libby where Plame's occupation was discussed.

"What you are saying is that if I talk to a federal investigator I better say that I can't remember, or that I'm not sure, because if I make a mistake, it's jail time."

Not at all. I'm saying don't lie, repeatedly, under oath.

"If I'm ever asked by the feds how much I made three years ago I better not say $53,001 if it was $53,001.53. That could be viewed as a lie."

I think the correct answer is "I don't remember, I would need to check my records."

"It's not that I'm trying to excuse Libby for committing a crime, it's just that I'm not sure that it's a crime that he's committed."

Libby's testimony, and we're not talking about "her shirt was blue" kinds of things, was directly contradicted by eight witnesses, including high-ranking government officials, with no reason to lie.

"Just because a jury finds you guilty doesn't mean that it's so."

Actually, that's exactly what it means.

"As you said yourself, much of the evidence was circumstancial. Eye witness and personal testimony can be some of the most unreliable evidence presented in a court of law."

True, but when you have this many witnesses all testifying to facts that contradict the testimony of Libby, it becomes exceedingly difficult to believe him.

"I think that I would rather wait until the appeals are completed before I pass judgement."

The fact that the appellate panel did not allow him to remain free pending appeal is a good indicator that there's nothing in the trial record to make a reversal a good possibility.

If I were Libby, I wouldn't bother with the appeals. Bush will pardon him on his way out of office.

"From what I remember of CSPAN, Libby's lawyers had Russett and some of the others contradicting themselves."

Which doesn't change the fact that Libby lied.

"I could be wrong, won't be the first time."

Me too.

"All I know is that I hope that I never have to face prosecution because I have lost faith in the system."

I have faith in the system, and I hope I never face prosecution.

.

BS Detector
I guess that you answered most of the questions

BS Detector
I've tried to read your post very carefully.

I personally do not have a transcript of the trial. I base many of my conclusions on what I observed on CSPAN, news commentary, and blogs.

Please help me here.

Did Armitage leak the Identity or not?

Was it a crime or not?

Who could Libby have been protecting if it was not Armitage?

Why would Libby lie to protect someone who was not involved in the leak?

If Armitage did leak the identity, and if it was Rove or Cheney who was behind it, why didn't Armitage testify to the fact, being the source of the leak?

In other words, who is Libby covering for?

If the lie and obstruction was to mislead investigators, who was he leading them away from?

Was it Rove or Cheney, who the source of the leak has not implicated?

So far it doesn't seem reasonable that motive has been proven.

I have stated things from recollection that occurred sometime ago and found that I was not totally accurate.

What you are saying is that if I talk to a federal investigator I better say that I can't remember, or that I'm not sure, because if I make a mistake, it's jail time.

If I'm ever asked by the feds how much I made three years ago I better not say $53,001 if it was $53,001.53. That could be viewed as a lie.

It's not that I'm trying to excuse Libby for committing a crime, it's just that I'm not sure that it's a crime that he's committed.

Just because a jury finds you guilty doesn't mean that it's so.

As you said yourself, much of the evidence was circumstancial. Eye witness and personal testimony can be some of the most unreliable evidence presented in a court of law.

I think that I would rather wait until the appeals are completed before I pass judgement.

From what I remember of CSPAN, Libby's lawyers had Russett and some of the others contradicting themselves.

I could be wrong, won't be the first time.

All I know is that I hope that I never have to face prosecution because I have lost faith in the system.

foxfire22 wrote:

"Why did Fitzgerald go after Libby when he knew who leaked the identy of MS Plame?"

1. That Armitage told Novak does not mean that nobody else was leaking. As it turns out, Libby, Fleischer, and Rove also leaked Plame's occupation to reporters.

2. Libby was prosecuted because Fitzgerald was convinced that Libby's false statements were intended to obstruct his investigation into the leaks that came from the White House.

What I'd be interested to learn, but don't expect to, is what sort of plea bargain offers were made to Libby. Libby's lawyers said the administration threw him under the bus, and Fitzgerald certainly seemed to be frustrated by Libby's steadfast dishonesty.

"If it was a crime to leak such information, why has Armitage escaped prosecution?"

Because a violation of the statute covering the leak requires the leaker knew that the operative was covert. The difficulty of proving this makes it very difficult to prosecute under this statute; there's been only one person sentenced for breaking this law in its 25 year history.

"Why isn't Novak under indictment?"

Because proving he knew she was covert would be impossible.

.

Tenore2
I like you old timer.
And they say farmers don't have enough sense to get in out of the rain.

By the way, I've plowed a few acres myself.

BS Detector
Questions that really bother me.

If justice is the whole bases of this arguement.

Why did Fitzgerald go after Libby when he knew who leaked the identy of MS Plame?

If it was a crime to leak such information, why has Armitage escaped prosecution?

Why isn't Novak under indictment?

I can't help but live with suspicion after seeing what other prosecutors have done to people.

Would be interesting to hear your comments on my questions.

By the way:

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_6308408

Test follows:

As a longtime attorney at the U.S. Department of Justice, I can honestly say that I have never been as ashamed of the department and government that I serve as I am at this time.

The public record now plainly demonstrates that both the DOJ and the government as a whole have been thoroughly politicized in a manner that is inappropriate, unethical and indeed unlawful. The unconscionable commutation of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby's sentence, the misuse of warrantless investigative powers under the Patriot Act and the deplorable treatment of U.S. attorneys all point to an unmistakable pattern of abuse.

In the course of its tenure since the Sept. 11 attacks, the Bush administration has turned the entire government (and the DOJ in particular) into a veritable Augean stable on issues such as civil rights, civil liberties, international law and basic human rights, as well as criminal prosecution and federal employment and contracting practices. It has systematically undermined the rule of law in the name of fighting terrorism, and it has sought to insulate its actions from legislative or judicial scrutiny and accountability by invoking national security at every turn, engaging in persistent fearmongering, routinely impugning the integrity and/or patriotism of its critics, and protecting its own lawbreakers. This is neither normal government conduct nor "politics as usual," but a national disgrace of a magnitude unseen since the days of Watergate - which, in fact, I believe it eclipses.

In more than a quarter of a century at the DOJ, I have never before seen such consistent and marked disrespect on the part of the highest ranking government policymakers for both law and ethics. It is especially unheard of for U.S. attorneys to be targeted and removed on the basis of pressure and complaints from political figures dissatisfied with their handling of politically sensitive investigations and their unwillingness to "play ball." Enough information has already been disclosed to support the conclusion that this is exactly what happened here, at least in the case of former U.S. Attorney David C. Iglesias of New Mexico (and quite possibly in several others as well). Law enforcement is not supposed to be a political team sport, and prosecutorial independence and integrity are not "performance problems."

In his long-awaited but uninformative testimony concerning the extraordinary firings of U.S. attorneys, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales did not allay these concerns. Indeed, he faced a no-win situation. If he testified falsely regarding his alleged lack of recollection and lack of involvement, he perjured himself and lied to both Congress and the American people. On the other hand, if he told the truth, he clearly has been derelict in the performance of his duties and is not up to the job. Either way, his fitness to serve is now in doubt.

Tellingly, in his congressional testimony, D. Kyle Sampson (the junior aide to whom the attorney general delegated vast authority) expressed the view that the distinction between "performance" considerations and "political" considerations was "largely artificial." This attitude, however, is precisely the problem. The administration that Sampson served has elided the distinction between government performance and politics to an unparalleled extent (just as it has blurred the boundaries between the White House counsel's office and the attorney general's office). And it is no answer to say that U.S. attorneys are political appointees who serve at the pleasure of the president. The point that is lost on those who make this argument is that U.S. attorneys must not serve partisan purposes or advance a partisan agenda - which has nothing to do with requiring them to promote an administration's legitimate policy priorities.

As usual, the administration has attempted to minimize the significance of its malfeasance and misfeasance, reciting its now-customary "mistakes were made" mantra, accepting purely abstract responsibility without consequences for its actions, and making hollow vows to do better. However, the DOJ Inspector General's Patriot Act report (which would not even have existed if the administration had not been forced to grudgingly accept a very modest legislative reporting requirement, instead of being allowed to operate in its preferred secrecy), the White House-DOJ e-mails, and now the Libby commutation merely highlight yet again the lawlessness, incompetence and dishonesty of the present executive branch leadership.

They also underscore Congress' lack of wisdom in blindly trusting the administration, largely rubber-stamping its legislative proposals, and essentially abandoning the congressional oversight function for most of the last six years. These are, after all, the same leaders who brought us the WMD fiasco, the unnecessary and disastrous Iraq war, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, warrantless domestic NSA surveillance, the Valerie Wilson leak, the arrest of Brandon Mayfield, and the Katrina response failure. The last thing they deserve is trust.

The sweeping, judicially unchecked powers granted under the Patriot Act should neither have been created in the first place nor permanently renewed thereafter, and the Act - which also contributed to the ongoing contretemps regarding the replacement of U.S. attorneys, by changing the appointment process to invite political abuse - should be substantially modified, if not scrapped outright. And real, rather than symbolic, responsibility should be assigned for the manifold abuses. The public trust has been flagrantly violated, and meaningful accountability is long overdue. Officials who have brought into disrepute both the Department of Justice and the administration of justice as a whole should finally have to answer for it - and the misdeeds at issue involve not merely garden-variety misconduct, but multiple "high crimes and misdemeanors," including war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I realize that this constitutionally protected statement subjects me to a substantial risk of unlawful reprisal from extremely ruthless people who have repeatedly taken such action in the past. But I am confident that I am speaking on behalf of countless thousands of honorable public servants, at Justice and elsewhere, who take their responsibilities seriously and share these views. And some things must be said, whatever the risk.

The views presented in this essay are not representative of the Department of Justice or its employees but are instead the personal views of its author.

John S. Koppel has been a civil appellate attorney with the Department of Justice since 1981.

To Phil Byler

"Up after midnight still repsonding to me? I was asleep in bed after enjoying the outdoors on a beautiful summer day. But you, you are determined to show I am wrong. The trouble is you don't."

And yesterday morning when you wrote I was at church and as you kept writing I was shortening my to do list... slightly. We all do our own things in our own time, don't we?

And your thing seems to be ignoring legitimate criticism, including questions to which you don't have answers you like. I'll number them so you can tell the difference between real questions and rhetorical ones.

"My points have been based on the trial, and my last post said it expressly to you. How aboout learning what was in the trial record?"

1. Works for me - how about you start citing some record of the court proceedings? I'm interested in learning as much as possible, so feel free to help by pointing me to credible sources.

"Prosecutors don't as a practice spend resources on prosecuting alleged perjury when as here there is no underlying crime..."

Nope, but when obstruction appears to prevent prosecution of an underlying crime, as Fitzgerald certainly has seemed to believe is the case with Libby's, prosecuting the obstruction should be expected.

"and prosecutors don't proisecute for alleged perjury when as here it rests essentially on differences in recollection of undocumented and untaped conversations. For a good perjury case, you want some physical evidence (like a stained blue dress) or a document or a tape."

True, no good physical evidence. However, when the witnesses whose testimony proves the perjury include professional colleagues of the accused, a CIA briefer, a former Undersecretary of State, a former White House Press Secretary, as well as three reporters with national stature, the evidence is substantial.

"Fitzgerald, however, had unlimited resources, and he had his rear end to cover after spending millions and running a grand jury proceeding in an investigation producing no indictments under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act or Espionage Act and when all along Fitzgerald knew who told Novak that Plame sent Wilson to Niger --Armitage."

2. Why do you think Fitzgerald felt pressure to bring any indictment at all? Pressure from whom? What in his background brings you to believe he's anything except what Jim Comey said of him: "There is no prosecutor who is less of a runaway than this guy." (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A55560-2005Feb1?language=printer)

3. He knew all along that Libby had lied to FBI investigators. He knew early on that Rove had leaked to Novak by confirming the story. He probably knew early on the Fleischer had leaked to Gregory, Dickerson, and Pincus. So at that point he had two high-ranking White House officials leaking the information and one lying to investigators. You don't think this is sufficient cause to continue the investigation?

"What is more, Fitzgerald had the testimony of scores of people. What Libby had to say about conversations with journalists meant nothing and obstructed nothing. To argue as you do about this issue is nonsense."

Please! You're ignoring the obvious.

4. Why did Libby lie about conversations with reporters? What possible motive could he have? Was he covering himself, because he thought he might have violated the IIPA? Was he covering for others, most probably Dick Cheney? Is there a third possible motivation for his lies? I'm anxious to hear it if there is.

Personally, I think that if Libby thought he was in jeopardy, I think he would have lawyered up rather than lie to investigators. I give Libby credit for being a smart guy and a good lawyer. Neither leads me to believe that he would have committed perjury to try to cover his own backside.

"No, I am not wrong about the application of the statutory definition of "covert." What overseas trips that Plame made do not satisfy the statute's requirements."

Then tell me, since paragraph (B) of the statute clearly covers residing overseas:

5. Exactly what would qualify as "serving" overseas, according to the statute? Would a month suffice? Two months? Where in the "plain language" of the statute is the definition of "serving" that leads you to believe that taking seven or more official business trips overseas in 18 months, visiting more than ten countries, each time under cover, doesn't qualify?

"That you argue that drafter of the statute Victoria Toensing has no credibiity about the issue is absurd. Victoria Toensing is a good lawyer who has been making a very clear point that Plame was not covert under the statute Toensing drafted; Toensing carefully goes through the statutory language to show why; you just don't want to accept it."

Then why don't you provide a link to your source? Is the whole "linking" thing too tedious? Let me help you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2305-2005Jan11.html. In this piece Toensing and Sanford say "At the threshold, the agent must truly be covert. Her status as undercover must be classified [Valerie Wilson's was], and she must have been assigned to duty outside the United States currently or in the past five years. This requirement does not mean jetting to Berlin or Taipei for a week's work. It means permanent assignment in a foreign country. Since Plame had been living in Washington for some time when the July 2003 column was published, and was working at a desk job in Langley (a no-no for a person with a need for cover), there is a serious legal question as to whether she qualifies as 'covert.'"

However, as I've noted above, the act clearly makes a difference between "servings" and "residing" overseas, and both qualify as covert. That Toensing doesn't mention this duality in the act's text makes her argument less than suspect.

"And no matter what you say, Fitzgerald did not indict anyone for violatingt he Intelligence Identities Protection Act; so argumets about Plame somehow really being covert are what lack credibility."

6. Fitzgerald not indicting under IIPA doesn't necessarily mean that she wasn't covert, since the statute requires proving the leaker knew she was covert. You either know this and are prevaricating, or you don't know this and are ignorant. Which is it?

"The Bob Novak article "Who sent Wilson?" was already on the wires that day [July 10 or 11]."

Every day I learn something. Novak testified that he wrote his column on the morning of the 11th. He did say on redirect that newspapers would have had access to it when it went on the wire, specifically the Washington Post and Boston Herald. As far as I know (I don't have a transcript), he was not asked WHEN on the 11th he filed his column, when on the 11th it went on the wire, or if non-member (of his syndicate) newspapers or television networks would be able to see it.

"In the end, I am not worong about anything I wrote, and I had it right in my prior post to you: you just refuse to accept anything that you don't want to believe."

Here are some of the things you wrote that are wrong or without support:

"[T]he alleged perjury had nothing to do even remotely with any non-existent cover up."

7. Why do you think Fitzgerald believes otherwise?

"Wilson suggested in his NY Times op-ed piece that the Vice President had sent Wilson to Niger."

8. I provided the text of the op-ed, and clearly there is no such suggestion. What specifically did he say that leads you to write that he suggested any such thing? Which of his words were ambiguous?

"Russert in his November 2003 statement to the FBI stated that he might have told Libby about Plame in that July 11, 2003 conversation."

I'm assuming this is wrong, though I don't know, since you are unwilling to provide a link to it.

"Russert admitted he probably discussed the Novak article with staffers at NBC [on or before July 11]."

Again, I'd love to see confirmation of this.

"[T]he trial judge [kept] out tapes showing inconsistent statements by Russert."

Or this.

"[The Libby jury was a] Bush hating liberal Washington D.C. jury."

9. Come on. How do you know? Any group of twelve people that doesn't decide the way that you'd like must be a "Bush hating liberal" jury?

"[T]he evidence rationally considered did not support the conclusion that he did lie about his July 11, 2003 conversation with Tim Russert."

10. That's why the jury found him guilty. And the judge saw no reason to set the verdict aside. And the appellate panel saw no significant reason to think an appeal would be successful. And the President said he's guilty, after consulting with White House counsel. Why do you think all of those judges got it wrong? Are they also "Bush hating liberals"? And Fred Fielding and Bush himself? Are they "Bush hating liberals"?

"If the country is polarized, then the culprits are the left wing Democrats."

11. You think the non-stop ankle-biting by Republicans during the Clinton administration had nothing to do with it? The campaign by Republicans to investigate any appearance of impropriety within the Clinton administration in an attempt to bring him down had nothing to do with it? Republicans excluding Democrats to an unprecedented extent during the first six years of the Bush administration didn't contribute? No culpability for political polarization among Republicans?

"She did not have the requisite foreign posting within the last five years, and the CIA did not take the requisite steps to prtoect her identity as covert."

12. Already pointed out that the statute does not require a foreign posting. Exactly what steps to protect covert status does the statute identify that the CIA failed to take?

-----

I realize that this is a long list of questions for you to answer, and I know that you can't answer them truthfully in a way that helps your indefensible case. I suspect that you will discount this as a pointless exercise and that I won't believe you anyway. But it's a funny thing about anonymous posting; none of us have any credibility, so citing sources (as I've provided in many cases and you've provided in none) is important.

I mean, it is if you're interested in truth and fact.

.

Insanity
I hate doing this; but as I indicated previously, I'm new at this.

But, take it from an old farmer; too many of you are so incensed with the "Bush hatred" syndrome that no matter what President Bush does it is evil personified. (Also, everything President Bush doesn't do is still evil; how did he get elected twice, if he was/is so scary.)

I might add that during the Civil War (yes I remember it well according to some of my critics about my age) two of the most reviled leaders were guess who? Right! President Lincoln and General Grant! Why, because they lied and people died! War is hell, but it is often the price we have to pay for our freedoms.

The Libby case has nothing, I repeat "nothing" to do with "Falsesiry Flame!" (Or whatever her name is!) Did you notice how quickly their book came out; too bad it was a dud!

If Libby wins on appeal, and I believe he will, this whole thing is much ado about nothing.

By the way, whrn Marc Rich spends one day in jail I will literally, eat my hat (it's a farm straw hat so it is possible.)

I may not live that long, but I believe that the time will come when President Bush will be recognized for his steadiestness.

Please, President Bush haters, spare me all the "talking points," if you have something original to say that would be nice!

Ignore the facts
Limbaugh says "But we know beyond any doubt that Richard Armitage, not Libby, was the leaker."
That is just patently untrue.
Armitage leaked it to Novak, but Rove leaked it to Time and Libby leaked it to Judith Miller at the NY Times. The only difference was that Novak was the only one who wrote about it.
As someone once said "You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts."
And you wonder why Bush and the GOP have so little credibility? This article is a perfect example of why most voters feel that way. It is pure BS.

To Robert
If you don't accept what I wrote in my 11:07 AM post about the statutory definition of covert and how that works in a case and instead insist on saying that the so-called DCI certification is somehow definitive regardless of what is in the Intelligence Identities Protection Act concerning the definition of covert, then all I can say is that you insist on being just plain wrong.

Robert, Covert Under IIP and Being Wrong
I went to Church and am back, and you trolls are still at it.

No Robert, the DCI does not define as a matter of law who is covert in order to sustain a prosecution under the intelligence Identities Protection Act. That is error on your part. The definition of who is covert is set by the Intellitgence Identities Protection Act. It has certain requirements as to a foreign posting and steps by the CIA to conceal the agent's identity. Plame did not meet those requirements. If the CIA says someone is covert and a case is brought under the statute as ot that agent's identity, the prosecutor has to prove that the agent was covert under the statutory definition; it is NOT a given on the say-so of the DCI or anyone else. If a case is brought and the proof fails the stautory test, then the prosecutor loses. It's that simple. That is why I keep writing that the fact Fitzgerald did not bring a prosecution under the Intelligence Identities protection Act must be held against any argument Plame was covert. Fitzgerald did not want to have to try to prove Plame was covert because when you understand the statutory defintion, as Victoria Toensing does having written the language, you know that Plame was not covert.

Libby Jury...
Was full of partisan hacks - one of which will be writing a "tell all" book (surprise surprise).

To Phil Byler:

I'm sorry you find it inconvenient to have somebody question your assertions, especially when they're flat wrong.

"1. While it indeed shows the narrow charges that were brought come down to Libby stating a different recollection of three conversations in July 2003 than three journalists -- Russert, Cooper and Miller."

Hmmm. Don't see you admitting that you were wrong when you said it was related to a conversation with one reporter, not multiple conversations with three.

"That in itself is not much of a perjury case, but Fitzgerald did go at length to make a complicated case out of it."

Pretty straightforward: most likely, Libby thought he might have violated the IIPA because he was aware that Valerie was covert and lied to cover his rear. It's also possible that there was a conspiracy in the White House to leak this information, and that Libby lied to cover other White House rears. A moonbat conspiracy theory, you say? Hardly - Libby told the grand jury that he was directed to leak portions of the classified National Intelligence Estimate at the same time the leaking was happening.

"I have been discussing the trial evidence, which caused even Judge Walton to throw out the claim as to Miller and which showed that Cooper's recollection was not different than Libby's."

I'd love to see some evidence of these assertions.

"That is why I have written that the case depended on the proof as to the Russert claim about what was a July 11, 2003 conversation, which is why I have noted Russert's November 2003 statement to the FBI in which Russert stated that he may have told Libby about Plame and why the exclusion of a memory expert and tapes of inconsistent statements by Russert were prejudicial."

You've noted this statement of Russert's, but you've not provided a link to the text, or indeed to anything saying anything about it. Can't be that hard, can it? I mean, I guess my Google's broken - would you mind using yours?

And of course, once again, we have Libby saying that he wasn't aware, at the time of the Russert conversation, that Wilson was even married. Yet there are those eight pesky witnesses testifying that they had participated in or witnessed conversations involving Libby wherein Plame was discussed, before the Russert conversation. For Libby's version of events to be correct, all of these witnesses have to be wrong. Good luck on that one.

"And one thing that BS Detector wants not to believe in that the trial evidence showed is that the Novak article was on the wires on July 11, 2003 and Russert admitted he probably discussed it with NBC staffers."

And you can provide nothing to contradict me. Please, provide the "trial evidence" that showed Novak's Wednesday column was available to Russert and NBC staffers on or before the previous Saturday (or even Sunday). Also please provide Russert's testimony regarding discussing it with NBC staffers prior to its publication on Wednesday. I'll be happy to accept a reputable source reporting such things rather than citations from trial documents.

But you won't find it, because that's not how newspapers work.

"The statutory definition of "covert" is plain in the Intelligence Identities Protection Act... You cannot change the plain language of the statute to cover Plame by any amount of interpretation. The statute requires a foreign posting and requires steps to be taken by the CIA, and Plame did not meet that test."

So funny to hear you say that one cannot change the plain language of the statute, and then you go ahead and do that. Actually, I don't think you're familiar with the text of the IIPA. Here's part of it:

"The term “covert agent” means—

"A. a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or

"B. a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information, and who resides and acts outside the United States as an agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency, or..."

Since (B) above clearly covers residing overseas, it's reasonable to assume that (A) does not also cover that same ground with different words and instead provides an alternate condition. Where exactly, in the plain language of the statute, is "foreign posting" stated? And if this is required, why does (B) specifically use the words "resides..outside the United States" while (A) uses the words "served outside the United States"? This is clearly a "this or that" construction; either (A) "serves/served" or (B) "resides."

Also, contrary to your assertion, there is nothing in the IIPA describing ANY actions that need to be taken by the CIA to affirmatively keep a covert agent covert. This is why I say you don't know the text of the act at all. If I'm wrong, it should be quite easy for you to show me up.

Besides, as I asked CharlieS, are you really contending that temporary duty overseas, including trips overseas under an alias, does not qualify as "serving outside the United States"? Or that when a U.S.-based asset travels overseas under an alias, the CIA is not taking affirmative measures to conceal her?

"This is what none other than Victoria Toensing, the lawyer who drafted the Intelligence Identities Protection Act for Senator Barry Goldwater's sponsorship, has been saying all along."

Toensing loses all credibility here when she misstates the Act that she helped to draft. Clearly, paragraph (A) says something different from paragraph (B), and there's a conjunction -- "or" -- between them. So if either of these statements is true, Plame was covert. Since the CIA has said that between the beginning of 2002 and mid-2003 Plame had been on TDY at least seven times in at least ten foreign countries, always traveling using cover, she was clearly covert. This isn't even worthy of discussion.

By the way, Toensing's quite the Republican. She and her husband have given more than $40,000 to political campaigns and PACs over the last nine years, almost all of it to Republicans or conservative organizations.

"It just is not convenient for the left wing or Fitzgerald to admit. I believe that Fitzgerald knew Plame was not covert under the law and was not truthful about it because it did not serve his purposes."

Why do you think that Fitzgerald would pursue a meritless case? What in his background provides any evidence that he would even consider such a thing? Don't bother looking - you won't find anything.

"It is prosecutorial practice not to indict for perjury when there is no underlying crime;"

Okay, I have to throw this in because it's too damned hard not to. Paula Jones' lawsuit against Bill Clinton was summarily dismissed by the trial judge, stating among other things that even if the plaintiff proved its case completely, it still would not amount to a criminal harassment claim. Yet somehow Ken Starr saw fit to bring articles of impeachment to the House, and somehow the House saw fit to adopt a couple of them. Sidebar over.

If Fitzgerald believed that Libby successfully obstructed the investigation into his own violation of the IIPA, certainly a prosecution for obstruction was warranted.

"that everyone in Washington D.C. and New York City read the Wilson op-ed column to mean that Cheney had sent Wilson on the trip to Niger -- which is why Cheney was interested in letting journalists know Cheney did not send Wilson; "

Wow. I provided the exact text of the column, and a link so you could look for yourself, and yet you're still unable to admit that that you're flat wrong. Again, what Wilson wrote: "Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report... The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office." This is what Wilson wrote. That you and your mentors twisted it into "Dick Cheney told the CIA to send somebody to Niger" is a reflection not on Wilson but on the dishonesty of the critics who have said this.

"that the CIA can say all they want after the fact that an agent is covert but if the agent has not had a foreign posting for the last five years (like Plame) and the CIA has not taken the requisite steps to protect the agent's identity (as with Plame), the agent is NOT covert;"

Which is clearly not what the act says -- you'll see, if you ever bother to read it. It's interesting, you SOUND like you know what you're talking about, even when you clearly don't.

"that Fitzgerald did not indict anyone for violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act;"

Which is, again, at one hand irrelevant or on the other hand the reason why prosecuting Libby for obstruction was not just proper, but necessary.

"and that BS Detector either does not mentally compute or refuses to believe anything that goes contrary to what he wants to believe."

Look, in our back and forth, one of us has provided substantiation for his assertions, and it ain't you. You're welcome to provide SOMETHING supporting ANYTHING you claim. I invite you to do so - I'm eager to learn as much as I can about this case. If you are able to enlighten me, or point out my errors with supportable facts or assertions, I'm all for it. But it all you can do is whine when you're proven wrong -- over and over and over -- well, have fun at the secret meetings in the bunker.

.

To CharlieS
"So when given a chance to get Scooter, even KNOWING that he had committed NO CRIME..."

BS. When Fitzgerald was appointed at the end of December, he learned of Libby's false statements made to FBI agents months earlier.

"...and further KNOWING WHO, in fact, HAD 'outted' CIA EMPLOYEE Valerie Plame Wilson..."

He had evidence that Armitage told Woodward and Novak. He likely had evidence that Rove told Cooper and confirmed to Novak. He likely had evidence that Fleischer told Gregory, Dickerson, and Pincus. Libby's lies were evidence that Libby was covering something.

"...Fitzgerald was determeined to nail someone in the Bush administration..."

Because Fitzgerald is what, some kind of liberal? Appointed U.S. Attorney by Bush, appointed Special Counsel by Ashcroft/Comey, where exactly do you get any indication whatsoever that anything Fitzgerald did or didn't do was motivated by anything other than his desire to do his job?

"...he found a grand jury that was willing to ignore the exculpatory facts presented, and NOT TOLD the relevant facts (like who really outted Plame)..."

1. Who really outed Plame - you mean Armitage and Rove and Fleischer and Libby?

2. Exactly who presented what exculpatory facts to the grand jury?

3. Since the charges were obstruction of justice, perjury, and making false statements, the grand jury had no need to know anything about who leaked what; that's not what Libby was charged with doing. I guess you don't understand how a grand jury works.

"...and got an indictment on Libby for not having a photographic memory."

Smelly BS. No fewer than eight witnesses testified that they were involved in conversations with Libby, all of which occurred prior to the Libby-Russert conversation where Plame's occupation was discussed. Libby initiated some of these discussions, and yet he claimed that he didn't remember Plame until reminded of her by Russert (who testified he did no such thing). Not surprisingly, the jury didn't buy it.

"Title 50 USC § 426 - DEAL WITH IT...BY LAW, Valerie Plame Wilson WAS NOT COVERT, and HAD NOT served outside of the United States in more than THE LAST FIVE YEARS in her capacity as an EMPLOYEE of the CIA. Her status WAS NEVER that of a COVERT AGENT..."

Your selectivity on the text of 426 is not surprising, as taking more of the section destroys your "argument." Here's more of the text of this section:

"426.4 The term “covert agent” means—

"A. a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or

"B. a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information, and who resides and acts outside the United States as an agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency, or..."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00000426----000-.html

Since (B) above clearly covers residing overseas, it's reasonable to assume that (A) does not also cover that same ground with different words. Besides, are you really contending that temporary duty overseas, including trips overseas under an alias, does not qualify as "serving outside the United States"?

Oh yeah, and then there's the CIA's unclassified summary of her career, included in the Libby trial record:

"On 1 January 2002, Valerie Wilson... was assigned to the Counterproliferation Division (CPD) at CIA Headquarters, where she served as the chief of a CPD component with responsibility for weapons proliferation issues related to Iraq. While assigned to CPD, Ms. Wilson engaged in temporary duty (TDY) travel overseas on official business. She traveled at least seven times to more than ten countries. When traveling overseas, Ms. Wilson always traveled under a cover identity -- sometimes in true name and sometimes in alias -- but always using cover -- whether official or non-official cover (NOC) -- with no ostensible relationship to the CIA. At the time of the unauthorized disclosure in the media of Ms. Wilson's employment relationship with the CIA on 14 June 2003, Ms. Wilson was a covert CIA employee for whom the CIA was taking affirmative measures to conceal her intelligence relationship to the United States."

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070529_Unclassified_Plame_employement.pdf

Psst - your foolishness is showing.

"and HER HUSBAND AND CHILDREN REGULARLY TOLD PEOPLE AROUND THEM THAT SHE WORKED FOR THE CIA. And this all happened LONG BEFORE there was any mention of her in ANY media source."

Something smells here. You say that "her children regularly told people...that she worked for the CIA...long before there was any mention of her in any media source." What qualifies as "long before"? I'd put "long before" as years. You're going to have to provide some sourcing here. Why? Because the Wilson's twins were three and a half when Plame was outed by Novak. Are you telling me that one or two year olds were telling people that Valerie worked for CIA? Mighty precocious, don't you think?

"A jury, especially a DC (read Democrat) jury, composed of Bush Derangement Syndrome afflicted people that are foaming at the mouth for ANY way to discredit the entire Bush Administration, would have found a Tuna Fish sandwich guilty if there was a way to connect it to Bush."

This is just plain funny. You can't complain about any of the other players involved because they're all Republicans or Republican appointees, so you assume that the jury must have been a bunch of partisan Democrats. Congratulations - we finally have an accusation without any evidence. And you've also proven the old adage about assuming.

"Libby should NEVER have been indicted, much less brought to trial because there was NO CASE against him since there was NO CRIME that had been committed."

BS. IF there was no crime committed (and it's certainly possible, isn't it, that Libby successfully obstructed Fitzgerald's investigation, which otherwise might have resulted in a prosecution? Fitzgerald certainly thought it was possible), then why did Libby lie? Is he just stupid?

And of course, this is all beside the point because Libby's crimes were CRIMES, regardless of the disposition of the underlying investigation.

"There are A LOT of CIA EMPLOYEES that have served, and are serving, overseas. Most, if not all, of them are NOT COVERT. It's well documented that the CIA has offices in many foreign capitals. Valerie Plame may or may not have gone oversea in her capacity as an ANALYST for the CIA..."

And when the CIA says that she traveled at least seven times to at least ten countries and ALWAYS traveled using cover, what does that mean to you? When the CIA says that she sometimes traveled under an alias, what does that mean to you? And When the CIA states that she "was a covert CIA employee for whom the CIA was taking affirmative measures to conceal her intelligence relationship to the United States," what does that mean to you?

"but the fact that the government never tried to hide the fact that she was there spells out that SHE WAS NOT A COVERT AGENT."

Are you done making an donkey of yourself yet?

.

To robert re covert
Victoria Toensing, the lawyer who wrote the Intelligence Identities Protection Act for Senator Barry Goldwater's sponsorship, has repeatedly said and written that Plame was not covert under the statute. There is a stautory definition of covert, and Plame clearly did not meet it. The statute requires that the agent have a foreign posting in the last five years (Plame has not had such a posting) and that the CIA take certain affirmative steps to protect the agent's identity (the CIA did not as to Plame). The CIA can say all it wants that an agent is covert, but that does not make the agent covert. What is it about the English language that you don't understand?

I love the USA and it's constitution
I love the USA and it's constitution
I have great fears that the schools and teachers of those who are ranting and raving about Scooter Libby, have not taught anything about elementary logic. I pasted some of the more inane comments just to emphasize my point.

Now, as I have mentioned in the few posts I've made, I have lived through the great depression, WWII, Korea (served during the Korean War), the French war in Vietnam, our own involvement in Vietnam, the Bosnia debacle (Clinton's undeclared war), the first Saddam and 2nd Saddam wars; our current war on terror; and we haven't seen the worst of it yet.

So now we have a major constitutional crisis; Scooter Libby was allowed to stay out of prison while he tries to get some form of reasonable justice. I know many judges have allowed a "non-risk of flight" to remain free during the appeal phase. In this case the judge showed a total lack of fair judgement. Go to JAIL now!

So President Bush commutes the jail time; if the appeal is successful, Scooter would have served time that was NOT warranted.

Of course too many, the real problem is that some of the opposition believe that President Bush is more evil than Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etal. It is, obviously, his GOAL to destroy our God given rights and to REDUCE this country TO A THIRD WORLD STAUS; ANSWERABLE TO Hugo. Those of you who can't see this must be blind.

He, President Bush, plans to get all this done in the next 18 months so that he can turn the task over to Dick Cheney when he leaves office(oops, Dick also leaves in 18 months; oh, I know Karl Rove will be the next evil dictator, well maybe that won't happen either for obvous reasons, he will also be in jail and gone by the wayside! Therefore the obvious answer is "you gwessed it; Scooter Libby.).

That's why he commuted his sentence! Why didn't you know, Bush plans to suspend the next election and appoint Scooter as dictator.

The clevernes and audicity of Bush; don't call him dumb, he knows what is doing. Scooter will prevent anyone trying to accuse President Bush of war crimes.

His alliance with Hugo will benefit his oil cronies; that's all he has EVER cared about.

Don't you see? It all adds up.

Now, it would not surprise me if some of you people (who really need to visit a shrink) believe what I just wrote. Let me repeat; President Bush plans to suspend the 2008 election; enough said?

I will stand by President Bush as our legally elected president and while I may disagree with some of his positions, I know he is an honorable man (but, yes, a man; not a perfect being such as God is) and that those of you who act like a pack of wolves, attacking anything in sight, might be happier if you would contemplate what this world would be like if Al Bore or the "sailor" were holding that office. I believe that God did have a hand in this; but, you make up your own mind.

Please remember; we are all faulty in our judgements and we need to see the positive accomplishments made by President Bush. Yes, he does deserve that title; the people elected him twice. Let's try to help by building on the positive. Critcize him fairly, but the hatred and anger exhibited by so many bodes evil for this great nation. I LOVE AMERICA AND I DO NOT CONDONE THE ACTIONS OF THOSE WHO SEEM TO HAVE NOTHING POSITIVE TO SAY ABOUT EITHER THIS COUNTRY OR THE PRESIDENT.

I will mention that I thought that there were many reasonable comments in this group; keep it up! Let's elevate the discourse. We don't need to keep calling each other names or use inflammatory language. Name calling and vitriol should be beneath well educated citizens of this unique nation; there has never been a greater nation, with more freedom and opportunity than these United States of America.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The folloning quotes are just a sample of what I find very distasteful.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Raywood Ashe writes: Friday, July, 06, 2007 12:44 PM
Marc Rich v. Scooter Libby
Here's a little logic for the morally challenged: Marc Rich didn't have anything on Bill Clinton. Clinton's pardon of Rich may have been outrageous -- but it wasn't a transparent cover-up.

Scooter Libby, on the other hand, lied to protect his bosses: George Bush and Dick Cheney. By commuting his sentence now -- and not pardoning him -- Bush ensures that Libby cannot be compelled to testify before Congress and the White House can continue to refuse to comment on the case.

The Big Question now is: will Bush ultimately pardon Libby? Hmmmm. That's sure a tough one. Gee -- what would a God-fearing, upright, solid citizen like George Bush do in a situation like this?

Libby's pardon is already in the bank. You can count on it -- the same way Libby is counting on his friends in high places."

incognito writes: Friday, July, 06, 2007 11:48 AM
Republicans Are The Moral Majority
You people are just full of it, aren't you? YOU are the ones who claim moral superiority, you are the ones who said this administratin would be different, did you forget?
-----------------------------
Posted on Wed, Jul. 04, 2007
Bush abuses executive power by protecting Scooter Libby

The Kansas City Star
President Bush is not the first president to abuse the power of executive clemency. But he has done so in spectacular fashion this week, protecting a criminal whose misdeeds were committed in Bush’s own administration from serving even a single day in prison."

Raywood Ashe writes: Friday, July, 06, 2007 8:16 PM
They can't do a darn thing about it ...
because Bush has successfully covered up his inovlvement in the leak of a CIA agent's name to the press in order to get revenge on a critic of the administration.

Maybe to most of the posters on townhall, leaking the name of a CIA agent is "nothing." To me, that's treason. The fact that Fitzgerald was unable to prove a technical violation of the law doesn't mean a thing.

You don't leak the names of CIA agents to the press. Just don't do it -- ever. Libby lied to protect his bosses -- who know damn well that even if they couldn't be convicted of a crime they at least did something wrong when they leaked Valerie Plame's identity.

So why should the Democrats hold hearings? Maybe they can shed a little more light on the subject than Bush has been willing to do. Believe it or not, a lot of people in this country think it's wrong to out a CIA agent for revenge. Now that we know Rove isn't going to be convicted of a crime, he should be hauled in front of Congress to answer a few questions about his involvment in the whole affair. Bush won't answer any questions. Libby can take the Fifth.

I say let the hearings begin."

HERE'S MORE!!!


"In 2001 they whine and cry over Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich. Then in 2007 they use the fact that Clinton was perfectly justified in pardoning him to justify Bush's commutation and eventual pardon of Libby.

Libby has shown no real remorse for his actions. And his White House service is no argument for leniency. Just the opposite, as the judge who sentenced him pointed out. High officials, the judge said, have a “special obligation” to obey the law.
2) Libby has a right to appeal his conviction. He was doing so. The system was working just fine.

To robert
You must not know how Washington D.C. works. The CIA is full of Democrats, as is the State Department and other federal departments. The bureaucrats do have agendas of their own. A President needs to clean house at the start of the administration or face disloyalty by trhe bureaucracy. There was a CIA game at work with respect to Plame.

Trolls Need to Get A Life
I have been out on a baseball field on a beautiful summer day, and I come back here to see that the trolls have busy writing away in response to me. My first reaction is to tell them all to get a life, that there is no life in being a decitful sppinner for left wing causes. But instead I will make a few comments.

1. BS Dectector purports to summarize the Libby indictment in his 1:17 PM post. While it indeed shows the narrow charges that were brought come down to Libby stating a different recollection of three conversations in July 2003 than three journalists -- Russert, Cooper and Miller. That in itself is not much of a perjury case, but Fitzgerald did go at length to make a complicated case out of it. More importantly, what is in the indictment is not what the evidence showed at trial. I have been discussing the trial evidence, which caused even Judge Walton to throw out the claim as to Miller and which showed that Cooper's recollection was not different than Libby's. That is why I have written that the case depended on the proof as to the Russert claim about what was a July 11, 2003 conversation, which is why I have noted Russert's November 2003 statement to the FBI in which Russert stated that he may have told Libby about Plame and why the exclusion of a memory expert and tapes of inconsistent statements by Russert were prejudicial. And one thing that BS Detector wants not to believe in that the trial evidence showed is that the Novak article was on the wires on July 11, 2003 and Russert admitted he probably discussed it with NBC staffers.

2. The 1:41 PM drivebyposting is a pathetic effort by someone to play lawyer to argue that Plame could have been covert under the law. The statutory definition of "covert" is plain in the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. Fitzgerald has said that gee, the statute has not been tested and the intent element cannot be proven, but that is just cover-your-rear end rationalization. You cannot change the plain language of the statute to cover Plame by any amount of interpretation. The statute requires a foreign posting and requires steps to be taken by the CIA, and Plame did not meet that test. This is what none other than Victoria Toensing, the lawyer who drafted the Intelligence Identities Protection Act for Senator Barry Goldwater's sponsorship, has been saying all along. It just is not convenient for the left wing or Fitzgerald to admit. I believe that Fitzgerald knew Plame was not covert under the law and was not truthful about it because it did not serve his purposes.

3. BS Dectector rants at 1:59 PM in a way that causes me to observe that one problem that left wingers have is that they have no intellectual discipline. The rant does not change, among other things: that it is prosecutorial practice not to indict for perjury when there is no underlying crime; that everyone in Washington D.C. and New York City read the Wilson op-ed column to mean that Cheney had sent Wilson on the trip to Niger -- which is why Cheney was interested in letting journalists know Cheney did not send Wilson; that the CIA can say all they want after the fact that an agent is covert but if the agent has not had a foreign posting for the last five years (like Plame) and the CIA has not taken the requisite steps to protect the agent's identity (as with Plame), the agent is NOT covert; that Fitzgerald did not indict anyone for violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act; and that BS Detector either does not mentally compute or refuses to believe anything that goes contrary to what he wants to believe.

Liberal Democratic hypocracy
So many of the Democratic apologists posting here haven't a clue about what they’re writing about. Libby, Cheney, nor Bush leaked Plame's name as a covert agent as she wasn't one. However, it's a fact that Armitage leaked her name and that her husband lied about his findings on his trip to Africa. The purpose of the investigation was to get Cheney. When that failed, a scalp was needed.

However, just because there was an investigation is hardly proof a crime was committed, except in the minds of rabidly partisan Democrats who believe even an accusation against Bush is tantamount to proof of criminally impeachable chicanery; so much for the rule of law. Yet Clinton sold pardons, sold sensitive missile technology for campaign donations from a foreign power, committed perjury in a court of law, sexually abused women, used government agencies such as the FBI, IRS, and NSA to harass opponents, and may have even had a number of threats terminated with extreme prejudice; but he's considered a sainted icon of the Democrats. Of course two wrongs don’t make a right.

Yet some partisans think there's no difference between a faulty memory and stealing Top Secret SCI documents and destroying them so as to protect Clinton, the latter act which should have garnered at least ten years or maybe even a firing squad. Also, all too many liberals resort to name calling, canards, innuendoes, prevarications, and ad hominem attacks when they can't support their convoluted and spacious arguments. It's so typical of so many liberals. Compassionate, tolerant, forgiving, open-minded, and cooperative liberals are not.

Item
There is both the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

The Democrats (Liberals) want to determine which they are going to require Bush to follow. In the case of Libby, they want GWB to follow the letter of the law, but if it is one of their own, they only want what they perceive the spirit of the law to be followed

Big difference. They want to both ways which is typical of the way they want ALL things. They really like to make up the rules as you go along. Forget about precedent. To them, they don't mean anything.

So,Phylo
We're back to who gets the facts or not, are we? Well, what facts don't you get about Berger stealing form the NA and destroying Gov't Docs, admitting to it, and only being fined 50k, and not having a prison sentence at all?
The way I see it, Libby didn't have a great memory, gets convicted,slapped with jail time, 250K and loss of his reputation. Sandy, ol boy still has a chance to use his law license. And, you think WE have trouble with facts? Wow, can I have some of your koolaid? Commutation is no worse than what Berger got, get over yourself.

Oh Yeah - forgot to mention...
Dems - ESPECIALLY the Clintons - balking about this commutation makes about as much sense as Ted Kennedy questioning Sam Alito's "ethics". Makes as much sense as dems championing the "fairness" doctrine.

Libby's commutation IS unjustified...
It's unjustified because he shouldn't have been prosecuted IN THE FIRST PLACE. Had this NOT been a political witch hunt by a bunch of raving lunatics, this guy NEVER would have been a pawn in a ridiculous, well funded game by the uber wealthy dem machine.

I have to laugh at you all... and feel sorry for your selective memories... whether it's accidental, part of a mental disorder, or simply that you've been indoctrinated by your party.

Henry Cisneros anyone?
How about Susan McDougal?
How about Mel Reynolds?
Or Dan Rostenkowski?

Let's not forget the sexual predator that Slick Willie pardoned. Or the 50 coke traffickers. Or the 31 pot traffickers. Or the FALN terrorists (to garner PR support of Swillary's senate campaign). Or what about Jimmy the Saint's pardoning of another sexual predator (Peter Yarrow) or his pardon of a would be presidential assasin? How soon you all forget!

I spent a great deal of time on the DOJ's website perusing presidental pardons and commutations. GWB is downright stingy when it comes to P&Cs... more so than his dad. In fact, he's issued the fewest since after WW2. (Dad was second fewest). Carter pardoned the most - over 1000. The percentages of pardons given versus pardons received speak for themselves - GWB is at a paltry 3%. Clinton only had 6%, but only because his administration received an unprecedented 7500 requests - more than the previous five administrations COMBINED (in other words, in 8 years, he received more requests than the previous TWENTY FIVE years). Clinton pardoned more in ONE DAY than Bush has in his entire presidency. MOST of those 140 were questionable/controversial.

How soon you forget...

Totally predictable
I knew from the moment I read this article's title that the lib posters would be frothing from the mouth with their hate-Bush rage.

Phil Byler has done a great job of providing facts and reasoned analysis. And as usual the hate-Bush libs have responded with their totally unsubstantiated conspiracy theories and general denigration of Bush that lacks specifics as well as logic.

At 11:33 loco points out, correctly, that this was never about Libby. The Clinton holdovers in the CIA who planned Wilson's "mission" were trying to screw Bush, not protect national security. That's why Wilson NEVER FILED A WRITTEN REPORT on his mission. Instead he gave his (unofficial) written report to the same NY Times that has been printing stories that alert terrorists as to how our security services are tracking them.

The Special Prosecutor was requested by Chuck Schumer, an anti-Bush Democrat Senator.

Wilson himself was a significant donor to the Democrats. In 2000 he donated to BOTH campaigns because he wanted to remain an ambassador. Very possibly wrote his NYT piece as retaliation for Bush not giving him a post in the new administration.

But by far the most idiotic, tin-foil hat, loony lib talking point is the presumption that there is/was some super-secret administration conspiracy to sell the Iraq war based on a bunch of lies about WMD. And that the Plame outing is just the tip of some big iceberg. It ranks even ahead of the 35% of Democrats who think Bush was a co-conspirator of the 9/11 attacks.

I know it's hard for you whackos, but try to stop and think logically for a second. If the administration had a super-secret conspiracy to lie about WMD going, the last thing they would do would be to invite an investigations by publicly compromising the ID of a covert CIA agent.

Here's the more likely scenario. Bush-hating libs have been determined to get revenge for the Clinton impeachment ever since the Florida recount was lost. For two years they were unable come up with anything. Finally, in the Spring and Summer of 2003 they seized on the pathetic issue that we didn't find as much WMD in Iraq as we expected. This quickly morphed into the common liberal LIE that we found "No WMD in Iraq".

Bush-haters purposefully ignore that every other reason Bush gave for the invasion was proven true (and NO tanabear, Bush did NOT say Iraq was involved in 9/11, that's another LIBERAL LIE). In addition, the subversion of the oil-for-food program, which Bush did not give as a reason to invade, was also verified, as reported in the Duelfer Report (the same "bible" libs use to claim "No WMD in Iraq). The only thing they will allow to be discussed in the public forum is WMD. That is how desperate they are.

For more than six years you have hunted Bush like a pack of rabid, partisan, Bush-hating, viciously wild dogs looking for an excuse to impeach him and jail him. Any excuse for a charge, trial and/or conviction would do. And what have you come up with? A lame conviction for process crime in an investigation about nothing that was purposefully blown into something for the career advancement of the prosecutor and the agenda of liberals and their media.

And now big bad Bushie is even going to take this away from youwith a commutation and, probably, an eventual pardon.

You are sub-pathetic. From the attempt by Al Gore to steal the 2000 election to the hypocrisy of Bill Clinton to lecture ANY President on the proper or ethical use of the Presidential Pardon, and all of your hate-Bush-let's-at-least-get-Cheney-maybe-Rove-oh-well-I-guess-we'll-have-to-settle-for-Libby-but-he-had-better-suffer-big-time-to-sooth-MY-frustration-because-in-the-end-it's-still-really-all-about-me spoiled child behavior that comes in between, you are sub-pathetic.

Being Off Base
Mr. Byler:

I believe BSD has covered most of the points of my 8:39 am post with which you found "discrepancies" so I will refer you to those.
On one of the points you and several others have made regarding the economy being great under Mr. Bush I submit to you that our economy is a hollow house of cards. Anyone (even a government) can create the illusion of a robust economy by spending boat loads of money using credit. But sooner or later that bill comes due and when it does economic reality sets in. This will be fine for Mr. Bush as the bills for his eight years at the helm will come due on future generations and the president at that time will face the daunting task of keeping our economy out a depression that might make the 1930's look mild. Of course by that time the Halliburton's and Carylse groups etc will all be headquartered off shore as will all their principal stock holders leaving you and me and most everyone else posting here to bail out the Titanic with a teacup.
I submit to you and all other posters here that Clinton was bad on many issues but Bush is far worse across the board and has greatly damaged our country economicly, emotionally and physically.

Trolls to the left of me,
trolls to the right. Ain't seen so much troll doo since I don't know when.

Could you trolls ease up, you're wearing out the scroll wheel on my mouse.

drivebyposting wrote:

"The law under which Fitzgerald was trying to prosecute has *never* been tested."

BS. See Sharon Scranage.

"The fact that Congress chose to use a different version of "covert" in the Identities act tells you everything you need to know about the Republicans who wrote it."

Come on. The definition of "covert agent" in the IIPA is fine.

.

Libby Clemency
Libby is a bloodless, souless, heartless remorseless shill of Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the neo-cons. As a lawyer fought for a pardon for Mark Rich, traitor against Our Country, who dealt arms to Iran and dodged taxes so you and I could pay more.

As aid to Dick Cheney he was a member if the shadow and pseudo-intelligence group "White House Intelligence Group" (WHIG). This group stove-piped isolated facts from genuine intelligence depts and agencies and spent two years vigorously bootstrapping a sham and downright kooky notion that Muhammed
Atta had a meeting w/ an Iraqi intelligence agent and Saddam harbored Al queda cells. Both of these nutty notions were excessively investigated and found to be pablum (see Atta treatment in 911 Commission Report).

But I guess 30 months for four felony convicts is wrong. He only lied about outign a CIA operative with expertise in Nuclear Proliferation and with experience in WMD prolifereation in the run up to the war.

I mean it isn't like he lied about consensual sex outside his marriage.

Phil Byler wrote:

"In the Libby case, the statement there was no 'underlying crime' is made in reference to the facts that: (i) the perjury was allegedly committed in grand jury testimony during an investigation of whether there were violations of the Intelligence Idenitites [sic] Protection Act or the Espionage Act in connection with the revelation of Valerie Plame Wilson's identity; and (ii) there were no prosections [sic] even brought by Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald for any violations of the Intelligence Identities Protection or the Espionage Act. If anyone would have been prosecuted, it would have been Richard Armitage, the Deputy Secretary of State and Colin Powell crony who was the one who told Bob Novak "who sent Wilson?" But not even Armitage was prosecuted."

Do you believe that all crimes a prosecuted? That it is not possible for a criminal to "get away with it"? Suppose for a moment that Cheney orchestrated a campaign within the White House to discredit Joe Wilson by telling reporters that his wife arranged for him to make this trip to Niger. Suppose that he knew Plame was covert because he had seen information from the CIA that indicated such. Would he be guilty of violating the IIPA? Maybe - this is a tricky law to prosecute, because the burden of proof is very high; the prosecution has to prove the accused KNEW the agent was covert. Now, suppose that Libby's perjury concealed evidence of such a campaign, and that Fitzgerald was unable to uncover other evidence sufficient to give a prosecution of IIPA a reasonable chance of being successful.

In this scenario, does Libby's perjury warrant prosecution, since there was no prosecution of the crime under investigation? Of course it does, because obstructing an investigation is a crime in and of itself. If there is no underlying crime, then it's also just plain stupid. Is Libby stupid?

By the way, this scenario isn't really a stretch, as Cheney did coordinate a campaign to discredit Joe Wilson that included leaking portions of the classified NIE.

"The level of dishonesty on the part of the left wing about the Scooter Libby case is appalling."

Hilarious.

"Because the alleged perjury had nothing to do even remotely with any non-existent cover up, I will state the alleged perjury. The alleged perjury to the grand jury was that Libby stated that on July 11, 2003, he had a conversation with Tim Russert during which Libby said that the Vice President had not sent Wilson to Niger (contrary to what Wilson suggested in his NY Times op-ed piece) and Russert told Libby that Russert had heard that Wilson's wife Plame at the CIA had sent Wilson on the trip to Niger. The charge of perjury was that Libby lied in stating that Russert told him about Plame. There was no documentation of the conversation. Russert in his November 2003 statement to the FBI stated that he might have told Libby about Plame in that July 11, 2003 conversation. The Bob Novak article "Who sent Wilson?" was already on the wires that day, and Russert admitted he probably discussed the Novak article with staffers at NBC. But in his trial testimony, Russert said he was clear he did not tell Libby about Plame. How convenient; and how convenient for the trial judge to keep out tapes showing inconsistent statements by Russert. In any event, the Scooter Libby case is about whether Russert told Libby about Plame in a July 11, 2003 undocumented conversation. That's all. Pathetic."

You really have no idea. Here's a breakdown of the BS in this paragraph:

1. The Libby-Russert conversation might have been 7/10, not 7/11.

2. Wilson never suggested that Cheney sent him to Niger. Here's all of the pertinent text from his op-ed: "In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report... The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office." http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/06/opinion/06WILS.html?ex=1372824000&en=6c6aeb1ce960dec0&ei=5007

3. See above for the multiple charges.

4. I don't believe that Russert told FBI investigators that "he might have told Libby about Plame." Please provide some evidence to support this claim.

5. The Novak column of July 14 was not on any wire service on July 10 or 11. You're showing you have no idea how newspapers work. You think a columnist puts a scoop like that out for other journalists to see three or four days before it will be published?

6. Russert certainly did not "admit" to discussing the Novak article with NBC staffers prior to July 14. Go ahead and cite something that shows otherwise.

7. I've never heard of the trial judge excluding tapes proving inconsistent statements by Russert; in fact, I haven't heard of any such tapes of the November 2003 conversation. Please cite a source for this assertion.

8. The perjury charges stem from false statements Libby made not just related to the conversation with Russert, but also conversations with Miller and Cooper. All of these false statements seem to be designed to hide the fact that Libby revealed that Plame worked for CIA and/or that he knew she was covert.

"That there was no underlying crime to Libby's alleged perjury does matter because as a matter of practice, prosecutors don't prosecute for perjury before a grand jury when there is no underlying crime that that is prosecuted as a result of the grand jury proceeding."

Again, just because the obstruction prevents a prosecution of an underlying offense does not mean there was no underlying offense.

"I also submit to you that the trial evidentiary record was bereft of any reason why Libby would lie, which made Fitzgerald's comments about the danger to Plame particularly prejudicial.

"One reason why it was error to exclude evidence that would establish Plame was not covert is that it would help affirmatively show that Libby did not lei about his conversations with journalists -- that they were just conversations as to which there were some doffering recollections."

It was the defense, not the prosecution, that sought to avoid any introduction of evidence related to Plame's covert status. As for differing recollections, aside from the reporters, at least five government employees testified that prior to July 10 they had or witnessed conversations involving Libby in which Plame's employment was discussed, some of which Libby had initiated.

"Fitzgerald knew from the start that Richard Armitage was the one who told Bob Novak about Plame."

As he knew from the beginning that Libby had already made criminal false statements to FBI agents.

"Plame was not covert within the meaning of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. There is a statutory definition of "covert" in that law that Plame clearly did not meet. She did not have the requisite foreign posting within the last five years, and the CIA did not take the requisite steps to prtoect her identity as covert. It is that simple."

BS. First off, the CIA stated unequivocally that she WAS covert:

"On 1 January 2002, Valerie Wilson... was assigned to the Counterproliferation Division (CPD) at CIA Headquarters, where she served as the chief of a CPD component with responsibility for weapons proliferation issues related to Iraq. While assigned to CPD, Ms. Wilson engaged in temporary duty (TDY) travel overseas on official business. She traveled at least seven times to more than ten countries. When traveling overseas, Ms. Wilson always traveled under a cover identity -- sometimes in true name and sometimes in alias -- but always using cover -- whether official or non-official cover (NOC) -- with no ostensible relationship to the CIA. At the time of the unauthorized disclosure in the media of Ms. Wilson's employment relationship with the CIA on 14 June 2003, Ms. Wilson was a covert CIA employee for whom the CIA was taking affirmative measures to conceal her intelligence relationship to the United States."

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070529_Unclassified_Plame_employement.pdf

You need a very strong argument (as opposed to no argument) to overcome this statement by the CIA. Who knows better than the CIA who is or isn't covert at the CIA?

Next, please read the definition of "covert agent" in the IIPA.

"The term “covert agent” means—

"(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency—(i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and (ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or

"(B) a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information, and—(i) who resides and acts outside the United States as an agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency, or..."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00000426----000-.html

Clearly, (B) refers to citizens who reside overseas. So (A) most likely does not refer to the same circumstance. To claim that temporary duty overseas does not qualify as "serving outside the United States" is, quite honestly, laughable.

"A Bush hating liberal Washington D.C. jury that did not get the benefit of a memory expert, Libby's work schedule and tapes showing Russert giving inconsistent testimony but did hear prejudicial comment by Fitzgerald returned a guilty verdict. The jury verdict should not stand."

How strange that an appellate panel with a majority of Republican-appointed judges found no reason to allow Libby to remain out on appeal. In case you don't know, this is a clear indication that there was nothing in the trial transcript that provided any significant reason to think that the verdict wouldn't stand up on appeal.

.

re minky writes:
Please ignore Phil Byer. He claims to be God of absolute knowledge, infallible.

The law under which Fitzgerald was trying to prosecute has *never* been tested. Fitzgerald has gone on record as saying that the "intent" part of the Identities law was impossible to prove. His purpose for persuing prosecution, he stated, was as an excercise to prove you couldn't prosecute that law and hence to motivate Congress into rewriting the law so that it could someday be prosecuted. Congress did take up that issue and Fitzgerald testified as such.

In a nutshell, on a scale of 1-10, Valerie Plame was a 10 when it came to being "covert". Yet Fitzgerald couldn't prosecute anyone because of bad law , an untested law, never tried before law. In fact that law is still untested.


What Phil Byer will not tell you is that this was strictly a Republican affair. A Republican, George Bush, called for the investigation. Why? Because Valerie Plame was as covert as covert could be working on nuclear proliferation. Patrick Fitzgerald is a Republican. The judge presiding over the trial was Republican. Trust me, if any of these guys were Democrat the loud mouths here wouldn've have been screaming it the whole time. Just as they have with the prosecutor in Tom Delay's case.

The Libby case, more than anything, has tested the notion that the Republican party is the party of "law and order". Bush called for the investigation, said he would fire whoever was responsible, and then made a mockery of himself by not firing Armitage, Libby or anyone else but instead just commutes Libby's sentence. How much more hypocritical can you be. I laugh when they call this a "witch" hunt. The hunting was all instigated and performed by Republicans.

The fact that Congress chose to use a different version of "covert" in the Identities act tells you everything you need to know about the Republicans who wrote it. They wanted the kind of cover that everyone except Libby received. The law is impossible to prosecute but looks good on paper.

The Libby case exemplifies the schizophrenia in the Republican party about respecting "law and order". They want to give it lip service but don't want to actually have it implemented. Bush's said "fire" and did "commute". Actions speak louder than words. Bush's actions after having called for the investigation initially says it all. Bush does not believe in law and order. Neither to do the Republicans any more.



Fitzgerald's summary of the indictment

I urge those of you who have strong opinions but don't understand the case to read this. But if there are just too many words for you, I understand.

-----

The over-arching obstruction of justice count alleges that while testifying under oath before the grand jury on March 5 and March 24 2004, Libby knowingly and corruptly endeavored to influence, obstruct and impede the grand jury's investigation by misleading and deceiving the grand jury as to when, and the manner and means by which, he acquired, and subsequently disclosed to the media, information concerning the employment of Valerie Wilson by the CIA. The obstruction count alleges that Libby made the following materially false and intentionally misleading statements:

< When Libby spoke with Tim Russert of NBC on or about July 10, 2003, Russert asked Libby if Libby knew that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, and told Libby that all the reporters knew it; and Libby was surprised to hear that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA; when, in fact, Libby knew Russert did not ask Libby if Libby knew that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, nor did Russert tell Libby that all the reporters knew it. And, at the time of this conversation, Libby was well aware that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA and Libby had participated in multiple prior conversations concerning this topic;

< Libby advised Matt Cooper of Time magazine on or about July 12, 2003, that he had heard that other reporters were saying that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, and further advised him that Libby did not know whether this assertion was true; when, in fact, Libby did not advise Cooper during that conversation that Libby had heard other reporters were saying that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, nor did Libby advise him that Libby did not know whether this assertion was true. Rather, Libby confirmed to Cooper, without qualification, that Libby had heard that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA; and

< Libby advised Judith Miller of The New York Times on or about July 12, 2003, that he had heard that other reporters were saying that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA but Libby did not know whether that assertion was true; when, in fact, Libby did not advise Miller during that conversation that Libby had heard other reporters were saying that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, nor did Libby advise her that Libby did not know whether this assertion was true.

Among the events leading up to these conversations, on January 28, 2003, President Bush delivered his State of the Union address which included sixteen words asserting that "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

On May 6, 2003, The New York Times published a column by Nicholas Kristof which disputed the accuracy of the "sixteen words" in the State of the Union address. The column reported that, following a request from the Vice President's office for an investigation of allegations that Iraq sought to buy uranium from Niger, an unnamed former ambassador was sent to Niger in 2002 to investigate the allegations. According to the column, the ambassador reported back to the CIA and State Department in early 2002 that the allegations were unequivocally wrong and based on forged documents. According to the indictment, beginning in late May and throughout June, Libby participated in multiple conversations concerning Valerie Wilson's employment by the CIA, including on the following occasions:

-- on or about May 29, 2003, in the White House, Libby asked an Undersecretary of State for information concerning the unnamed ambassador's travel to Niger. The Undersecretary thereafter directed the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research to prepare a report concerning the ambassador and his trip. The Undersecretary provided Libby with interim oral reports in late May and early June 2003, and advised Libby that Wilson was the former ambassador who took the trip;

-- on or about June 9, 2003, a number of classified documents from the CIA were faxed to the Office of the Vice President to the personal attention of Libby and another person in the Vice President's office. The documents, which bore classification markings, discussed, among other things, Wilson and his trip to Niger, but did not mention Wilson by name. After receiving these documents, Libby and one or more other persons in the Vice President's office handwrote the names "Wilson" and "Joe Wilson" on the documents;

-- on or about June 11 or 12, 2003, Libby was orally advised by the Undersecretary of State that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA and that State Department personnel were saying that Wilson's wife was involved in the organization of his trip;

-- on or about June 11, 2003, Libby was informed by a senior officer of the CIA that Wilson's wife was employed by the CIA and was believed to be responsible for sending Wilson on the trip;

-- prior to June 12, 2003, Washington Post reporter Walter Pincus contacted the Office of the Vice President about a story he was writing about Wilson's trip. Libby participated in discussions in the Vice President's office concerning how to respond to Pincus;

-- on or about June 12, 2003, Libby was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA in the Counterproliferation Division. Libby understood that the Vice President had learned this information from the CIA;

-- on or about June 14, 2003, Libby met with a CIA briefer and expressed displeasure that CIA officials were making comments to reporters critical of the Vice President's office, and discussed with the briefer, among other things, "Joe Wilson" and his wife "Valerie Wilson," in the context of Wilson's trip to Niger;

-- shortly after publication on or about June 19, 2003, of an article in The New Republic magazine online entitled "The First Casualty: The Selling of the Iraq War," Libby spoke by telephone with his then Principal Deputy and discussed the article. That official asked Libby whether information about Wilson's trip could be shared with the press to rebut the allegations that the Vice President had sent Wilson. Libby responded that there would be complications at the CIA in disclosing that information publicly, and that he could not discuss the matter on a non-secure telephone line; and

-- on or about June 23, 2003, Libby met with Judith Miller of The New York Times. Libby was critical of the CIA and disparaged what he termed "selective leaking" by the CIA concerning intelligence matters. In discussing the CIA's handling of Wilson's trip to Niger, Libby informed Miller Wilson's wife might work at a bureau of the CIA.

On July 6, 2003, The New York Times published an opinion article by Joseph Wilson entitled "What I Didn't Find in Africa." On the same day, the Washington Post published an article about Wilson's 2002 trip to Niger, which was based partially on an interview of Wilson, and he was a guest on the television program "Meet the Press." In the article he wrote, as well as in the print and broadcast interviews of him, Wilson asserted, among other things, that he had taken a trip to Niger at the request of the CIA in February 2002 to investigate allegations that Iraq has sought or obtained uranium yellowcake from Niger, and that he doubted Iraq had obtained uranium from Niger recently, for a number of reasons. Wilson said that he believed, based on his understanding of government procedures, that the Vice President's office was advised of the results of his trip.

Following Wilson's July 6, 2003 statements, according to the indictment, Libby engaged in the following actions:

-- on or about July 7, 2003, Libby had lunch with the then White House Press Secretary and advised that individual that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA, noting that such information was not widely known;

-- on or about the morning of July 8, 2003, Libby met with Miller of The New York Times. When the conversation turned to the subject of Joseph Wilson, Libby asked that the information he provided on the topic of Wilson be attributed to a "former Hill staffer" rather than to a "senior administration official," as had been the understanding regarding other information that Libby provided to Miller during this meeting. Libby then discussed with Miller Wilson's trip and criticized the CIA reporting concerning Wilson's trip. During this discussion, Libby advised Miller of his belief that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA;

-- also on or about July 8, 2003, Libby met with the Counsel to the Vice President in an anteroom outside the Vice President's office. During their brief conversation, Libby asked the individual what paperwork there would be at the CIA if an employee's spouse undertook an overseas trip;

-- no earlier than June 2003 but on or before July 8, 2003, the Assistant to the Vice President for Public Affairs learned from another government official that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA and advised Libby of this information;

-- on or about July 10, 2003, Libby spoke to NBC's Russert to complain about press coverage of Libby by an MSNBC reporter. Libby did not discuss Wilson's wife with Russert;

-- on or about July 10 or July 11, 2003, Libby spoke to a senior White House official ("Official A") who advised Libby of a conversation Official A had earlier that week with columnist Robert Novak in which Wilson's wife was discussed as a CIA employee involved in Wilson's trip. Libby was advised by Official A that Novak would be writing a story about Wilson's wife;

-- on or about July 12, 2003, Libby flew with the Vice President and others to and from Norfolk, Va., on Air Force Two. On his return trip, Libby discussed with other officials aboard the plane what Libby should say in response to certain pending media inquiries, including questions from Time's Cooper;

-- on or about July 12, 2003, in the afternoon, Libby spoke by telephone to Cooper, who asked whether Libby had heard that Wilson's wife was involved in sending Wilson on the trip to Niger. Libby confirmed to Cooper, without elaboration or qualification, that he had heard this information too; and

-- on or about July 12, 2003, in the late afternoon, Libby spoke by telephone with Miller and discussed Wilson's wife, and that she worked at the CIA. The false statement charge in Count Two of the indictment alleges that Libby lied to FBI agents on October14 and November 26, 2003, regarding the conversation with Russert on July 10, 2003. Count

Three charges Libby with making false statements to FBI agents during the same FBI interviews in October and November 2003 relating to his July 12, 2003 conversation with Cooper.

The perjury charge in Count Four alleges that Libby lied while testifying under oath before the grand jury on March 5, 2004, about his conversation with Russert on July 10, 2003, because, in fact, Russert did not ask Libby if Libby knew that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, nor did Russert tell Libby that all the reporters knew it, and at the time of their conversation, Libby was well aware that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA.

Count Five charges Libby with perjury before the grand jury for allegedly lying when he said that he told reporters that he was telling them what other reporters were saying -- first, on March 5, 2004, about his conversation with Cooper on or about July 12, 2003, and second, on March 24, 2004, regarding conversations with reporters. In fact, Libby well knew that he did not advise Cooper or other reporters that he had heard other reporters were saying that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, nor did Libby advise Cooper or other reporters that he did not know whether this assertion was true.

CharlieS wrote:

"I WANT ONE OR ALL OF YOU TO POST THE EXACT, VERBATIM LIE(S) THAT lIBBY TOLD TO THE GRAND JURY."

Umm, this would take a lot of space (even for me). Can't I just link to the transcripts?

.

So-called lies by Bush
Let's back up to a time prior to the US invasion of Iraq.

For several months, Bush tried to give Saddam a way out of war with us. It seems evident to me, Bush didn't want to go to war but, was left no other choice. I strongly believe Saddam had plenty of time to hide the wmd's he had and to set up the insurgency we now see. I think he knew the politicians in the US Congress would liken this strategy to Viet Nam and would call for a withdrawal before defeating the insurgency.

The insurgents are by and large, members of Saddam's Baath Party and, once we leave, they will come back in power and dominate Iraq. The Kurds know this and don't want any part of it.

As far as Libby is concerned, I agree with Limbaugh. He should never have been held up as a scapegoat.

As far as the Bush presidency is concerned, I would like to see him elected again, even though I know that can't happen. He has been good for our economy and for our country. Had 911 not occured, we would be running at an overall surplus instead of spending all that money on additional security and fighting a war.

I shudder to think where we would be under a Democrat had we taken the same two trillion dollar hit we took on Bush's watch. And, the reason the US is held in low esteem in many parts of the world can be laid at the feet of our free press who have run us down to the rest of the world instead of supporting our actions. It seems to them Iraq would be better off allowing Saddam to continue murdering more than 100,000 of his people each year.

If that same free press were to amplify the good we do as opposed to exaggerating the realities of war, we may be held in higher regard around the world.

ran61 wrote:

"Libby didn't leak the name, get over it"

Clearly, he did (leak her occupation, not her name). Think Judith Miller was lying? Think she would have spent three months in jail rather than give Libby up if she had no integrity?

"So Libby couldn't remember the order of 2 conversations that took place within 2 days of each other years prior to his testimony."

1. His first false statements were to FBI investigators 3-4 months after the conversations in question.

2. His testimony was contradicted by at least eight other witnesses.

"If this outing broke the law then why isn't Richard Armitage on trial for breaking the law."

Because the Intelligence Identities Protection Act requires that the leaker is aware that he is leaking classified information (that the operative is covert). The prosecutor has to prove what the suspect knew, which is obviously a high hurdle.

"The fact is no law was broken."

Fitzgerald was convinced that Libby was likely lying to cover other wrongdoing, possibly criminal, by others in the White House. So if Libby's obstruction prevented Fitzgerald from being able to prosecute somebody else, it doesn't mean no law was broken, it means Libby's obstructionism was successful.

"So to justify the millions of taxpayer's dollars that were wasted we convict someone of perjury for an imperfect memory and declare victory."

Fitzgerald was aware of Libby's perjury at about the same time he was aware that Armitage had told Novak, since Libby's first false statements were made months before Fitzgerald was appointed. So for him to continue to investigate whatever it was Libby was hiding was hardly a stretch.

"Jury's [sic] have found innocent people guilty. In a DC court there were probably 12 democrats and zero republicans."

Nah. Based on the last election (90% Democrat), it's likely there were one or two Republicans on the panel.

"Therefore the jury was biased and latched onto one little mistake."

If there was "one little mistake," why did Fitzgerald bring the case? Why did Walton not throw out the verdict if it wasn't supportable? Why didn't the appellate court allow Libby to remain free pending his appeal? Because this was a very strong case, with virtually no chance to be overturned on appeal.

"Of course Joe Wilson hasn't lied about anything. His supposedly correct information gathering about Saddam's not shopping for uranium has been proven false."

You don't know the facts. Please quote what Joe Wilson said and state the evidence "proving" that it was false.

"I believe Bush is trying to let the legal system work out the problem. Libby's case is still on appeal. If in the appeal process the conviction is overturned then Libby doesn't need the pardon."

"The commuting of the prison sentence was justified for an unjust verdict and punishment."

Not according to Bush, who said the verdict was just, nor to his administration, which argued last year that a 33-month sentence for very similar crimes was inherently reasonable because it fell within federal sentencing guidelines.

"If the appeal fails, Bush should immediately grant the pardon."

Don't worry, he will. I see no reason for the appeals to continue, since the pardon's already inevitable. Why spend the money that way?

"To all those who wanted to see Libby go to jail, why didn't you push the same if not harsher penalty on Sandy Burglar...oooopps Berger. He couldn't remember stuffing classified documents in his clothes minutes after he did it."

The Bush Justice Department investigated and negotiated a plea bargain. Fine by me. If they had prosecuted him and gotten a prison term - fine by me. Call me a fan of the criminal justice system.

.

Black Dog
" I have no problem with China or India educating their citizens - and we still top them for the quality of our advanced degrees, but the tide is turning in their direction - and George Bush, far from doing anything to stop the bleed of jobs and outsourcing to India and China, Bush praised outsourcing - and then back pedaled when called on his gaff. America won't be number one forever,not with the economies of India and China exploding like they are! And Bush - now in his 7th year as president and the Republican congress - in power from 1995 until now, have presided over a slow bleed of prestige, jobs, knowledge and security to countries that will roll over us if we're not careful. You guys are so scared of the Muslim bogeyman, that you completely miss the real dangers to America. You think the Muslim are a problem - wait until China is the strongest economy in the world with their nuclear weapons, a dire thirst for markets and resources, and the largest standing army in the world - a military that is using the financial windfalls of its host country to modernize and improve itself... "

Nice summary of exactly what is happening BUT you forget we NEED tax cuts and free rides

This was never about Libby
says it all. Even the media and other democrats admit that their goal was Cheney, Rove, Bush for "alleged" wrong doing regarding the war. No wonder the dems are so angry about the commutation. Note that with their hundreds of hearings dems have come up with nothing but bogus claims of impropriety regarding the firing of prosecutors. Isn't it awful that politics may have played a role in who is a prosecutor? Who ever heard of that? Now the hearings will do on and on until the next election. Of course, nothing will come of these hearings and of course nothing will be accomplished in the "do nothing congress". Hate kills.

Excuse the multiple typos in the above
The key board reacts too slow for my fingers on this blog.

Phil
I respect your postings. But the democratic and republican parties are bought and paid for. Our country would be well served to dissolve both of these parties by a massive vote for a third party.Note how the following were silent on the issue of immigration:
Paid for: Guilliani: already obfuscating and double talking.

McCain: In bed with Kennedy who has been on the mash so long you wonder if the people of Mass have had a contact high that has destroyed their brains.

Thompas: Uvuncular and pleasing but with absolutely no substance.

Hunter: Great! doesn't stand a chance as he is not getting air way and Coulter loves him so the left will destroy him for that reason alone.

Hucklebee: Eloquent and sensible but will be attacted because he is a Christian and former pastor, doesn't stand a chance

Tancredo: good but as interesting as Bob Dole.

Bill and Hillary: Will institute the largest and most expensive health care plan that will banrupt the country. Will raise taxes and institute leftists ideologies.
OBamana: To the left of hillary if there is any room in that corner.

Edwards: A hypocritical hair piece:
MAde all of his money on torts.He has the crown for being the King of Torts
Has wealth beyond belief but is for the poor: Go figure
The democrats will also dissolve borders and not enforce or strengthen the borders.
I hope a third candidate runs and the entire brain washed world vote for Mr. X.

Then I hope every Senator who has face recognition get voted out of office.

Then i hope the State department gets dissolved or done away with.

Then I hope the Dept. of Education is dissolved and No child left behind is cancelled. (And this froma professor of 30 years) Education depends on the cultural environment, not money.
From a desire to learn, not a desire to get smiley faces for "trying".
Only a change in the family can change the anti-intellectual atmosphere, the multi-cultural educational blather.


Gene Touchet & The Jury
A Bush hating liberal Washington D.C. jury that did not get the benefit of a memory expert, Libby's work schedule and tapes showing Russert giving inconsistent testimony but did hear prejudicial comment by Fitzgerald returned a guilty verdict. The jury verdict should not stand.

Now, I go to the baseball field.

***PLUG ALERT***
New content going up at the Spade today. Come check it out!

minky's question
Plame was not covert within the meaning of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. There is a statutory definition of "covert" in that law that Plame clearly did not meet. She did not have the requisite foreign posting within the last five years, and the CIA did not take the requisite steps to prtoect her identity as covert. It is that simple.


black dog blathering
Anyone notice that black dog did not respond to my point that contrast to black dog's rant, there was no lie in David Limbaugh's article? Instead, black dog changed the subject to my pointing out in another post there are good parts to Bush's record.

Excuse me, bblack dog, but the economy is doing very well. You have learned from your masters at the New York Times how to write about the economy in a way to hide the fact of a growing, prosperous economy at a time a Republican sits in the White House.

If the country is polarized, then the culprits are the left wing Democrats. There has been a continuous flood of rabid anti-Bush propaganda at a time of war with the radical Islamists. It's called Bush Derangment Syndrome, and you have it.

That China and India are developing their economies with increased number of engineers is a credit to them, particularly India, which has freed up its economy to achieve growth. But how is that a problem caused by Bush?

The Republican Party does have its problems. I think a new generation of Republican leaders is needed and that old Republicans like Lugar, Domenici, Voinovich, Lott and Warner need ot be replaced. But I would rather have those problems than the ones that the Democrat Party has in being mired in socialist class warfare claptrap and appeasement-minded defeatism that goes so far as to deny that there is a war on terror and in having such "leaders" as Silky "I'm So Pretty" Pony Edwards, Hillary "forked tongue" Clinton, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and so on.

Illegal immigration is a problem, but Bush's mistake was to make common cause with Ted Kennedy. Law enforcement is needed; law enforcement is what tbe American public demands. But what will effectively paralyze law enforcement efforts will be the Democrats who want amnesty for illegals.

Personal integrity is a Bush asset. That is not to say he has acted wisely as to such matters as, for example, authorizing the Fitzgerald appointment in the first place, not renominating General Pace, not getting in the bully pulpit to explain the Iraq War to the AAmerican people and counteract leftist disinformation, joining forces with Ted Kennedy on dealing with illegal immigration. But the President should act with personal rectitude; George W. Bush has; Bill Clinton did not -- he had an oral sex affair with a White House intern and lied about it under oath.

It is summer, and it is time to go to the baseball field.

The ones who needed sentencing
(1) Sandy Burglar -- as his stealing documents from National Archives was felonious at minimum, treasonous easily!
(2) Patrick Fitzgerald -- the actual crime committed was prosecuting someone who hadn't committed any!
(3) Mike Nifong -- punished partly by disbarment, but more charges should be laid
(4) Johnny Sutton -- he should be sent to serve the COMBINED sentences of the Border Patrol agents he prosecuted (taking the words of illegal immigrants that their "civil rights" had been violated!) while the agents should be pardoned and also should file lawsuits against Sutton!

Limbaugh wrote:

"I understand the angst of certain rule of law proponents upset by President Bush's commutation of Scooter Libby's conviction. But..."

"As a rule of law conservative I don't take lightly such executive interventions in the judicial process, believing our judicial system depends on the integrity of our jury system and the impartial administration of justice." BUT...

"I understand that it might appear like cronyism for the president, after the justice system has taken its course to convict and sentence a member of his administration, to reduce the sentence, especially given the president's affirmations of confidence in the special prosecutor handling the case." BUT...

"That said, I still believe Scooter Libby is a worthy candidate for clemency and even pardon."

So much for the rule of law.

"This case has never been about Libby. He has merely been the scapegoat for the Bush-hating left..."

Unfortunately for Limbaugh, the fiercely independent, Bush-appointed U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald, and the Republican-appointed Judge Reggie Walton provide no basis for such an assertion.

"Thus, when the news broke that someone had leaked the identity of Joe Wilson's allegedly, but doubtfully covert CIA spouse, Valerie Plame..."

The CIA has said repeatedly, and unequivocally, that Plame was covert. People who believe otherwise need very strong arguments to overcome this. After all, nobody knows better than the CIA who is and isn't a covert CIA asset. So where's the argument?

"...liberals immediately adopted the irreversible assumption that the "leak" was orchestrated by the administration and implemented by one or more of its key players. But we know beyond any doubt that Richard Armitage, not Libby, was the leaker."

First off, why is it so hard for some of the true believers to conceive that there could have been more than one leaker? Yes, Armitage told Woodward, and Armitage told Novak. But who was the confirming source for both of these two, and who told journalists, Judith Miller, Matt Cooper, Walter Pincus, David Gregory, and John Dickerson?

Here's the timeline:

6/12: Washington Post publishes Pincus story
6/12 (approx): Cheney tells Libby that Wilson's wife works for the CIA's counter-proliferation division (CPD).
6/13: Armitage tells Woodward
6/23: Libby tells Miller - Wilson's wife "might" work at CIA
7/6: Wilson's op-ed published in NYT.
7/8: Libby again speaks to Miller about Plame.
7/8: Armitage tells Novak
7/9: Rove confirms Novak's information
7/11: Rove tells Cooper
7/11: Ari Fleischer tells Gregory and Dickerson
7/12: Fleischer tells Pincus
7/12: Libby confirms Cooper info
7/12: Libby once again talks to Miller about Plame
7/14: Novak column published

"Since Libby had committed no "underlying" crime, he had no motive to commit perjury. He had nothing to cover up."

Clearly, Libby had told Miller about Plame's employment prior to Novak's public disclosure, so he was in jeopardy. In addition, there was a campaign within in the White House to discredit Wilson. Since this effort included leaking information from the until-it-was-leaked-it-was-classified NIE, it's not unreasonable to investigate whether the White House leaked her occupation to foster the idea that his wife was involved in sending him to Niger. If there was such an effort, and if any of those involved were aware that her status was covert, then we may have a criminal conspiracy.

So Libby had one definite reason to lie, which was to cover himself, and one potential reason to lie, which was to cover others in the White House.

"Nevertheless, Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald was able to secure a perjury conviction against Libby based on inconsistent statements he made involving conversations he'd had."

BS. Limbaugh wants us to believe that Libby was convicted because his sworn statements were internally inconsistent - that his statements changed over time. But Libby was convicted because his version of events was contradicted by no fewer than eight witnesses, including a high-ranking official at State, another of Cheney's aides, White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, two CIA agents, and a reporter who spent 85 days in jail.

"Others also caught in inconsistent statements were not only not charged with perjury, but lavished with praise by the mainstream media."

Again, impugning the integrity of Fitzgerald without any basis. What were the inconsistent statements, how were they refuted, were they made to obstruct the investigation (as Libby's clearly were) and would prosecuting because of them have resulted in a conviction?

"To this day, these liberals don't care about perjury -- they nearly glorified it during the Clinton years."

Physician, heal thyself.

"This is still about the leak. Yet there was no administration leak."

Asked and answered. No fewer than three high-ranking White House officials disclosed Plame's employment to the media.

"If I were Bush, I would pardon Libby because I don't believe he is guilty..."

You might want to actually look at the evidence before making such an absurd statement.

"...and I don't believe he should have to shoulder the punishment for the liberals' fabricated Bush-lied 'crime.'"

Again, impugning the integrity of the prosecutor assigned to Chicago because he was the best U.S. Attorney in the country.

"I believe that at worst, Libby's memory is fallible, like all the rest of us. If I believed he actually lied deliberately to the court -- I wouldn't favor clemency."

Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

.

Libby didn't leak the name, get over it
I love watching democtratic hypocracy. Lets latch on to one fact even though 100 other facts make it irrelevant. So Libby couldn't remember the order of 2 conversations that took place within 2 days of each other years prior to his testimony. Hillary Clinton for being the smartest woman the world, never remembers anything.

If this outing broke the law then why isn't Richard Armitage on trial for breaking the law. The fact is no law was broken. So to justify the millions of taxpayer's dollars that were wasted we convict someone of perjury for an imperfect memory and declare victory.

Jury's have found innocent people guilty. In a DC court there were probably 12 democrats and zero republicans. Therefore the jury was biased and latched onto one little mistake.

Of course Joe Wilson hasn't lied about anything. His supposedly correct information gathering about Saddam's not shopping for uranium has been proven false.

I believe Bush is trying to let the legal system work out the problem. Libby's case is still on appeal. If in the appeal process the conviction is overturned then Libby doesn't need the pardon. The commuting of the prison sentence was justified for an unjust verdict and punishment. If the appeal fails, Bush should immediately grant the pardon.

To all those who wanted to see Libby go to jail, why didn't you push the same if not harsher penalty on Sandy Burglar...oooopps Berger. He couldn't remember stuffing classified documents in his clothes minutes after he did it.

Warrier
"How much harder must the Clinton's push before you people realize they are trashing the Constitution?"

How can a Bushie even think about saying this????? LMAO LOL......

OK, Tanabear
So, Plame was covert. Why then was Armitage not charged with the "crime"? Why would Fitzgerald pursue top administration officials when he already had his man?

Got any ideas?

Anybody?

Air Ways Are Flooded
Pictures of the Clinton team are everywhere. Bill head thrown back in laughter with his arm around Hillary-the picture of the perfect couple enjoying matrimonial bliss. All the while Bill covets his neighbor, your wife, your daughter and anything else he can tease with a cigar. Two for one is the mantra they spew, twice as much and both experienced. In my book they are both a big zero and twice zero is still zero. Here is a thought for you:
Billary and Propriety

How much harder must the Clinton's push before you people realize they are trashing the Constitution? Bill Clinton is precluded from being President ever again by virtue of the 22d Amendment to the Constitution which was ratified pursuant to Article V. When a President is elected to office, he or she must sell all their stocks or put them in a "blind trust" so as to demonstrate no conflict of interest on legislation effecting the economy. Hillary has stated on numerous occasions, you will get 2 for 1 if I am elected and some syndicated columnist even refer to her now as "Billary". Bill Clinton should recuse himself from all government activity during Hillary's tenure, should she win.
This should include a strict provision limiting Bill Clinton's access to just the living quarters in the White House. That is not cruel, Hillary will have chosen these limits by running, and I believe there is a valid court argument that could be made reference the potential for purposely attempting to violate or circumvent the 22d Amendment. Bill Clinton is not just another First Lady(man)--he has no business in those portions of the White House where National Interest and security decisions are made. Bill Clinton's preclusion is specific;it is an amendment to the Constitution. This attempt to further degrade our Constitution must be stopped or the votes of we "The People" are meaningless.

revenge is sweet?
I am with the comments that said all Democrats are crazy. It is impossible to reason with them. They are so full of the hype they feed on. The approval rating for this Dem led congress is so low because of the investigations and accusations. They were voted in for change not revenge. This is going to be their downfall.

Phil Byler
"He obviously can't discuss evidence, law and the facts of the case."

They are self evident no further comment required

Libby pardon
As far as I can tell, 'scooter' in nothing more that Dick Cheney's pet. The President gave it to him to placate Cheney.
If he wanted to show real mercy, as this columnist says, how about getting those two Border Patrol agents out of prison??
These are two men who were part of our last line of defense between the drug smugglers and coyotes that bring illegals into this nation.
Who is worth more? You read the facts and decide, I have already done so, One 'scooter' doesn't equal 1/4 Border Agent.
Remember it's Washington, DC we're are talking about here, the land of bullsh*t and honey, depending on which side of the aisle you happen to be at the moment.

GET THE BORDER AGENTS OUT OF PRISON NOW!!!
Screw Libby and the rest of the over protected pets the politicians have, let the fend for themselves for a change, welcome them to the real world for a while.

To meggy
The George W. Bush Presidency has seemed to run out of energy at an inopportune moment. But let's be smart and not fuss excessively about Bush, but rather keep our sights trained and our energies employed on what is necessary to keep the Democrats out of the White House and to get good Republicans back in control of Congress.

About Hal Donohue
Hal Donohue's 9:29 AM post provides evidence that Hal Donohue does not have a grip on reality. No doubt the smoke to which he refers is actually smoke from whatever he is smoking. He obviously can't discuss evidence, law and the facts of the case.

About black dog
As usual, back dog gives a left wing rant starting with accusing David Limbaugh of lying. But how is it a lie to argue, as David Limbaugh does, that in contrast to many of Clinton's pardons and commuations (e.g. to Puerto Rican terrorists), the commutation of Libby's sentence was justified, as Libby is no threat to anyone? The answer is that it is not a lie, just a defense of the commutation of the Scooter Libby sentence about which the left wing is insanely furious.

Same old same old
Any one who expected honor and integrity from anyone connected to Bush or the Bush Regime is so naive I am surprised they are able to live.

Get a grip folks, "scooter" would have started talking the minute he was locked up that was never going to happen. Anything else is smoke...

sure sure
No one has any credibility to complain about Bush Jr or Clinton, when they ignore Bush Sr.
Pardons.

Charles S.
Charles: I have posted this information regarding Libby in oneother Town House blog and was basted for it!
My son Lt. Col. _______ at the Pentagon from 2002-2006 in the DIA regularily saw ValeriePlame. When I asked him about her, he said:"'She was not covert; she was the same as me an analyst. The CIA does not operate in the Pentagon
BTW My son did the initial investigation regarding the Iran nuclear build up 800 articles in all finally ignored at the highest levels in this government. He said, we needed to destroy their capability by 05 that was the landmark year--now they are minutes away from such capability.

I am not a fan of this government. I voted for Bush twice but cannot wait for his exit. This Congress and this presidency is flawed!
Two good things: appointment of Alito and Roberts. and the lowering of the capital gains tax: the economy is booming--employment at an all time low.

The rest of his presidency is crap!
I believe he was sincere in his reasons to go into Iraq. However, he was naive beyond belief to think one could establish a democracy among Islamic fascists who have only one religious agenda: destroy the west and Israel. Now he is in competition with Carter for being the WORST president ever--incompetent mismanagement of the war; being in bed with Mexico and the planned corridor and dissolution of borders.

But the Libby thing is much ado about nothing!

To justa workin stiff
You are off base in your 8:39 PM post with respect to the Libby case.

That there was no underlying crime to Libby's alleged perjury does matter because as a matter of practice, prosecutors don't prosecute for perjury before a grand jury when there is no underlying crime that that is prosecuted as a result of the grand jury proceeding.

You are dead wrong when you write that as far as you read Libby never answered the questions that triggered the perjury charges. Excuse me, but Libby voluntarily appeared before the grand jury several times and testified for hours answering questions. The perjury charge was pathetic: that he supposedly lied in stating that on July 11, 2003 in a conversation with Tim Russert, Russert told him (Libby) about Plame, which Russert said in his November 2003 statement to the FBI he may have but in his trial testimomy denied.

You ask why did Libby lie? But I submit to you that the evidence rationally considered did not support the conclusion that he did lie about his July 11, 2003 conversation with Tim Russert or his July 12, 2003 conversations with Matt Cooper and Judith Miller. See my 7:03 AM post. I also submit to you that the trial evidentiary record was bereft of any reason why Libby would lie, which made Fitzgerald's comments about the danger to Plame particularly prejudicial. One reason why it was error to exclude evidence that would establish Plame was not covert is that it would help affirmatively show that Libby did not lei about his conversations with journalists -- that they were just conversations as to which there were some doffering recollections. They did not mean anything. Fitzgerald knew from the start that Richard Armitage was the one who told Bob Novak about Plame.

As for your comments about Bush's record, I htink that you are again off base. There are quite a number of very good things about Bush's record -- tax cuts that have spurred a terrific economy, excellent nominations to the U.S. Supreme Court in Roberts and Alito and to the appellate courts, promotion of the pro-life cause resulting in a federal partial birth abortion ban, anti-terrorist measures that have kept the nation safe from major terrorist attack, and a personal life that restored respectability to the White House after Clinton's tawdry behavior. Bush has erred when he has sought common ground with Democrats on illegal immigration and spending. But that just underscores the need to keep the White House away from the Democrats, who are basically socialists and appeasement-minded defeatists.

Bill
Bill writes: "After reading this post, I'm convinced that ALL democrats are crazy."

You would be more accurate to state that ALL democrats are marxist/nazi/fascist (communist).

Re Senator Lieberman
I would like to see Senator Lieberman break free of the Democrats on all issues, not just national security. As to national security issues, he is terrific. In the last three weeks, Senator Lieberman has written two excellent articles published in the Wall Street Journal Online, and I recommnend them for reading. In his article on June 15, 2007, in the Wall Street Journal Online, Senator Lieberman reported on his recent trip to Iraq, and among other things, noted the improvements in security and the military's estimate that 90% of the suicide bombings in Iraq are the work of non-Iraqi al Qaeda. In his article of July 6, 2007, in the Wall Street Journal Online, Senator Lieberman discussed "the proxy war that Iran is waging against American soldiers and our allies in Iraq." I appreciate Senator Lieberman's efforts to educate the people about who is th eenemy in Iraq. I have a son who is a U.S. Army First Lieutenant (with Ranger tab) serving as a platoon leader in Iraq. I know what great people our military guys are and why what they are doing is critically important. We are at war with radical Islamism. A day doesn't go by that I don't curse the Democrats and some Republicans for their fecklessness.

democrats
After reading this post, I'm convinced that ALL democrats are crazy.

Perjury or not?
As I read down through the posts a couple of things stick out.
"there was no underlying crime" I don't believe Federal law cares if there was or wasn't and underlying crime lying to a Federal grand jury and the FBI is criminal and as a long serving federal level lawyer and political person Mr Libby knew this. That begs the question why did he lie? As far as I have read he has never answered the questions that triggered the perjury charges.
And folks the "Clinton did it to" argument is really weak. I agree Clinton's firesale of pardons was a bad thing but when you look at Bush's record on clemency requests from his years as President and years as Govenor of Texas he has never done what he did for Mr. Libby. This act leaves Mr. Bush open for the criticism he has recieved and quite frankly I was shocked that he did it. IT does leave the impression that Mr. Bush does believe his administration is above the law.
I can not vote for a Clinton to return to the White House...who really believes we can trust them? But based on Mr. Bush's performance since 2000 I could also never vote for him or anyone who espouses the decisions he's made as our President.
That anyone in the Republican party can look at what Bush has done as President and call him a Conservative in any way makes me want to cry.
Huge deficits, added public welfare programs at govenment expense "Medicaid prescription plan", more federal medeling at local levels "No Child Left Behind" ( which for those of you who think that one is a smashing sucess need to reread the numbers), wireless wiretapping of anyone? (are you kidding? who wants the next President to have that precednt stand as legal)
The world used to look up to this country and all of us that lived here as a benevolent power in the world and a shining light of freedom and a free society. Does anyone think the world feels that way about us now? Try traveling abroad on a U.S. passport these days and tell me you don't feel like a target in a shooting gallery especially in europe.
Someone tell me where we can find an honest leader becuase I sure haven't seen one in our political system for a long time. Bush's pardon of Libby?? legal, yes. Proper and honest, NO.

Thanks CharlieS & Phil ~
You have brought sanity and courtesy back to TH. I was about to stop reading any more posts on TH because many posters whom you call TROLLS are so wildly accusatory, loading their messages with questionable (or lying) statements, usually containing no source citations. You may blame me for most markings "flagged as offensive" here. Cursing and plain ignorance are not pleasing, but I absolutely cannot stand to read all the lies.

Would it be a good idea for TH to require posters to make some sort of declaration as to where they are coming from, their education level and political party? When you listen to TV commentators who are employed by Washington Post, NY Times or Boston Globe (Nina Easton changed her employer to "Fortune"), at least you know what line of ideology you will receive and how much credence it deserves. Or you may tune off. For Nina Easton, I've learned to keep my finger on the mute button and silence her every word. Nina is not worth listening to and "muting" her words is no loss for the Brit Hume discussion on Fox cable.

To CharlieS
You are wasting your time with the left wing trolls on this one. They don't don't care what the alleged perjury is. They care only about making their false allegations in order to attack the Bush Administration for "covering up." The level of dishonesty on the part of the left wing about the Scooter Libby case is appalling. They (the left wing) are going to hurt the country.

Because the alleged perjury had nothing to do even remotely with any non-existent cover up, I will state the alleged perjury. The alleged perjury to the grand jury was that Libby stated that on July 11, 2003, he had a conversation with Tim Russert during which Libby said that the Vice President had not sent Wilson to Niger (contrary to what Wilson suggested in his NY Times op-ed piece) and Russert told Libby that Russert had heard that Wilson's wife Plame at the CIA had sent Wilson on the trip to Niger. The charge of perjury was that Libby lied in stating that Russert told him about Plame. There was no documentation of the conversation. Russert in his November 2003 statement to the FBI stated that he might have told Libby about Plame in that July 11, 2003 conversation. The Bob Novak article "Who sent Wilson?" was already on the wires that day, and Russert admitted he probably discussed the Novak article with staffers at NBC. But in his trial testimony, Russert said he was clear he did not tell Libby about Plame. How convenient; and how convenient for the trial judge to keep out tapes showing inconsistent statements by Russert. In any event, the Scooter Libby case is about whether Russert told Libby about Plame in a July 11, 2003 undocumented conversation. That's all. Pathetic.

A Point of Constitutional Law
The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the law. Those who blather about President Bush not following the rules ignore the point that under Article II, the pardon and commutation power is absolute, and that gives the President the authority to exercise it regardless of any "rules." Having written that, I think that the President's exercise of the power in Scooter Libby's case was amply justified. But that is a point of prudence in contrast to Bill Clinton's imprudence with respect to giving pardons and commutations to financial backers and Puerto Rican terrorists.

Robert & No Undelying Crime
Robert in his Friday 10:54 PM post asserts that there is no underlying crime to perjury. For Robert's sake and for anyone else suffering from pretentious dimwitedness, the following explanation is provided:

In the Libby case, the statement there was no "underlying crime" is made in reference to the facts that: (i) the perjury was allegedly committed in grand jury testimony during an investigation of whether there were violations of the Intelligence Idenitites Protection Act or the Espionage Act in connection with the revelation of Valerie Plame Wilson's identity; and (ii) there were no prosections even brought by Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald for any violations of the Intelligence Identities Protection or the Espionage Act. If anyone would have been prosecuted, it would have been Richard Armitage, the Deputy Secretary of State and Colin Powell crony who was the one who told Bob Novak "who sent Wilson?" But not even Armitage was prosecuted.

Libby Commutation
Assuming Plame really was covert then the logical question becomes: Why wasn't Armitage indicted and prosecuted since he's the one who "outed" her?

Fitzgerald knew this before he began the investigation, so why do an investigation if you know who the criminal is?

Libby was in the grand jury room for hours without being able to take his notes in with him to refresh his memory as to what he said when and to whom.

Was Russert lying on the stand? We don't really know because the judge wouldn't allow testimony from Andrea Mitchell to be able to find out, but isn't it strange one of the jurors was Russert's neighbor?

The parole board recommended probation, but Fitzgerald and the judge decided he was a dangerous criminal who deserved hard time.

The sentence was over kill with a quarter million dollar fine, 30 months in jail and 2 years probation after that.

What punishment did Sandy Berger get for stealing national secrets? Certainly not a jail term and he can get his secrecy clearance back just in time for a Hillary administration (God forbid).

President Clinton lied to a grand jury and judge, and a lie is a lie. He lied to get out of paying for what he did to Paula Jones. What was his punishment?

Loss of law license, can't practice before the Supreme Court, fine and settlement with Jones. No jail time and no probation.

This commutation was right because it reduced the sentence to something reasonable while still giving Libby the chance to appeal his case and hopefully clear his name.

you frog mouthed
liberals seem to be on the same low life tier as
bill the liar & hillary the defender of the liar.

Bad choice
Loyal Democrat: "Now we need the Clintons back; they are the only ones that can eliminate the corruption inherent in Washington."

If I were a Democrat (and a moderate), I'd pick Lieberman for that task. I doubt he would rack up a resume like this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Clinton_administration_controversies

And that doesn't even mention John Huang or Loral Space & Communications, Ltd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Huang

http://www.judicialwatch.org/bcchinagate.shtml

They're Not Equivalent
Libby lied to a grand jury. he is directly involved in helping the President and the V-P lie to the American people.

None of the persons pardoned by Clinton were directly working with or for him.

The proper comparison is to Bush the first pardoning Caspar Weinberger in connection with Iran Contra, even before a trial was held.

Note that Bill Clinton's reaction to the first bombing at the WTC, 29 days into his administration, was to convince the Democratic majority house and senate NOT to have hearings about the pardons given by Bush the first, and not to have hearings about the security lapses of Reagan and Bush the first that allowed domestic terrorism like the February, 1993 WTC bombing to occur.

Perhaps you recall how kindly Republicans repaid Bill Clinton for his magnanimity.

Oh, where to begin with all the errors
Let's start with the Clinton's supposed mockery of the rule of law. Let's say for a moment, he did mock it. How many lives were lost due to that mockery. Zero. How many lives are lost due to Bush's blatant mockery of the rule of law. Tens of thousands of lives. Who's worse? Why doesn't David care about all the lies that Bush told. Because of him, Al-Qaeda is in Irag, they weren't before. The world is far more dangerous thanks to Bush. Bush mocks the Constitution, and for that, he should be impeached.

David says Libby has no motive to lie. Of course he does. To protect Cheney. Do you really think Armitage would've leaked Plame's name without permission. And why hasn't he been fired. Bush said he'd fire the person who leaked the name. Well he hasn't. Of course he'd have to fire himself and/or Cheney if he kept his word. But his word is worth about as much as a pile of poo.

Yet another falsehood David tells about is the noble and selflessness of Bush's clemency (and future pardon) of Libby. Give me a break! It was completely self-serving. Libby knows the truth, so to keep him quiet, he gave Libby clemency. If Bush and Cheney are so innocent and have nothing to hide, why are they so secretive and change the facts to suit them?

BUSH HAS NEVER RESPECTED THE LAW!
I am a Conservative and so your theory about all the Liberal Bush haters is bunk.

**The NEOCONS like Scooter Libby were their as the lawyer for Mark Rich when he was pardoned by Bill Clinton. Libby is a NEOCON too.

**David Limbaugh has just proven that he is a BUSH Neocon just like his brother. This is very pathetic because your brother did something mind boggeling...he actually rallied behind the American people to fight this Illegal Immigration Bill.

**NEOCONS have no respect for the Law, otherwise we would not be in the business of Nation building and planting democracies around the world.

Mark my Words: The only reason that I can find worthy of having voted for George W. Bush was because the Real/True Conservatives twisted his arm and we got Alito and Roberts on the Supreme Court. This was the only victory of the Bush Presidency for the United States of America.

are you for real?
====
Joe Wilson's allegedly, but doubtfully covert CIA spouse
====

this is about where I decided the article was written by a loon.
Plame WAS covert.
If she wasn't, there wouldn't have been an investigation... duh ... futher the CIA itself has said, in court documents, SHE WAS COVERT at the time she was outed.

That ship has sailed and the only ones still saying she wasn't covert are the partisan crackpots.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200707030002?f=h_top

No helping hand for the border patrol?
I like that Bush commutes sentences for his admin buddy and lets people defending this country rot in prison. Way to go, "decider." I've never voted anything other than GOP in my life, but the way the Republican candidates have acted is giving me very serious doubts about '08...

Such a bad argument
The reality is that if the Bush Presidency continues on its current path there may be a general demand to carve Clinton's face on mount Rushmore.

If Bush had even once shown an ounce of mercy in any other case this argument might be the tinnest bit less absurd.

Blacks are prosecuted for drug crimes many many times more often per drug offense that white drug users, did Bush ever pardon one of these people?

Black street level dealers spend much more time in prison than for selling crack than the higher up white dealers who sell the the cocaine to be made into crack.

Did Bush even commute one year of a sentence of a crack dealer who went through drug treatment, found religion, and showed promise of stable employment.

Did he ever show any mercy to anyone ever?

This is a man who laughed and mimicked the pleas of condemned inmates begging for their lives.

Every convict has a story of how they got there. There are soldiers who refused to deploy out their agreement with Kofi Annan that the Iraq war was illegal. One even volunteered to serve in Afghanistan instead.

Mothers lie to federal investigators to protect their children. Secretaries lie to protect their bosses. Mothers kill sexual predators that violated their children.

We stupidly elect our state and local prosecutors guaranteeing that prosecutions will be pursued for solely political reasons. A fact that conservatives seemed to magically discover only very recently. How many murders received the death penalty because a death penalty conviction would be well timed for political effect,who if their cases came up only weeks later the prosecutor wouldn't have wasted the resources pursuing it?

And returning to Clinton, he too may have been guilty of perjury but only after a seemingly endless number of baseless political charges were brought against him. In these cases several people went to jail for perjury though there was no underlying crime.


Libby is a very intelligent and wealthy lawyer who could afford the very best legal counsel.

In a nation were we sentence retarded preteens to life in prison, showing mercy to a man who had all of life's advantages and chose not to use them is completely absurd.

Liberals are such hypocrites
Just look at their bloviating when Bush commutes Libby's prison sentence for lying about a non-crime, while they are silent when Klinton pardoned tax cheats, terrorists and bribers.

Similarly, this silly no-confidence vote against Gonzales for firing 8 attorneys, but Klinton fires all 93 of them, including some investigating him!

Libby
Waitress: "You want meatloaf with taters"
Customer: "No, what else do you have?"
Waitress: "We got meatloaf with beans."
Customer: "What else?"
Waitress: "Meatloaf with taters."
Customer: "What else?"
Waitress: "Meatloaf with beans."

Thanks for the meatloaf with beans, Little Limbaugh, but I'm going over to the DNC for some taters. I'll probably be back tomorrow for the beans. I just wish the menu would change occasionally in this country. Listening to these hacks suggests that we only have two choices. Unfortunately, they're right.

Blah blah blah
The Clinton's make a few bucks selling pardons and everyone thinks it was some big deal. The whole purpose of the presidential pardon system is to give the outgoing president a chance to cut a few deals and boost his bank balance prior to hitting the streets.

The Clinton's didn't exactly get rich during their White House stay. In fact, things were so bad toward the end, they actually needed to take many articles of White House furniture when they left town. As such, we should be happy that they managed to develop a nice nest egg by negotiating a few pardons with hardcore criminals, terrorists, and mob figures.

Now we need the Clintons back; they are the only ones that can eliminate the corruption inherent in Washington. Their record speaks for itself.

Libby similar to Weinberger
Clinton's pardons did not involve members of his cabinet who may have been ordered to do illegal things.

George H. W. Bush pardoned Cap Weinberger BEFORE he was tried, and would likely have implicated GHWB in the Iran-Contra scandal.

Likewise, Libby was likely covering for misdeeds done by his boss and the stink of impropriety is all over this commutation. Was a promise of exoneration offered? Hmmmmm....

Stop with the Clinton-bashing. You're just plain wrong.

Libby Pardon
The problem with this article is that it brings all of conservatism into disrepute.

George Bush remained loyal to keeping his own butt out of jail. This is perfectly understandable.

The problem is that a lot of good conservatives are going to go down in flames trying to defend the indefensible.

And Bush has demonstrated that he doesn't give a damn about his own party.

You can run the usual 'blame Clinton' red herring, but Clinton isn't the one destroying honest conservatism.
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