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Tuesday, June 12, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Another Lesson In Selective Tolerance
by David Limbaugh
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People who don't think the radical homosexual lobby is trying to force its views on society probably aren't paying close attention. Increasingly, in various parts of this nation, if you express traditional views on traditional marriage, you risk being branded a bigot and your speech being muzzled.

For the radical homosexual lobby, it isn't enough that its views are guaranteed full protection, even special protection by the state. They also want to ensure that those disagreeing with them are demonized and denied their First Amendment rights.

The Washington Times' Julia Duin reports on a lawsuit -- Good News Employee Association vs. Hicks -- originating in Oakland, Calif., that is being appealed to the United States Supreme Court.

The controversy arose when two employees of the city of Oakland formed the Good News Employee Association (GNEA) to challenge activities of a previously formed group of homosexual employees. The homosexual group and other radical left-wing groups had availed themselves of the city's e-mail and bulletin board systems.

One e-mail message said, "I personally think the good book needs some updating." According to the Pro-Family Law Center, "Other city-approved e-mails (during the same time period) announced the establishment of an 'altar' for the Day of the Dead, 'National Coming Out Day,' 'the first anti-Iraq war teach-in sponsored by a city government anywhere in the U.S.,' and a 'First Annual Holiday Mixer' for the Gay-Straight Employee Alliance."

When other employees questioned whether these communications were legitimate city business, a city council member fired back an e-mail saying that a "celebration of the gay/lesbian culture and movement" was part of the city's role to "celebrate diversity."

The Times reports that, in response, GNEA posted a flier on the employee bulletin board stating, "Preserve Our Workplace With Integrity: Good News Employee Association is a forum for people of faith to express their views on the contemporary issues of the day." It also said it opposed "all views which seek to redefine the natural family and marriage," which it described as "a union of a man and a woman, according to California state law."

A lesbian employee complained to the city attorney's office that the flier made her feel "targeted" and "excluded," which prompted a supervisor to remove it because it violated the city's anti-discrimination rules.

But it didn't stop there. A city deputy executive director sent a memo to city employees saying the GNEA flier "contained statements of a homophobic nature" and warned employees they could be fired for posting similar materials.

Two GNEA employees filed suit against Oakland, claiming a violation of their First Amendment rights, in view of the discriminatory practices of the city based on the content of the messages.

The district court rejected the claim, as did the 9th U.S. Circus Court of Appeals. The 9th Circus' opinion stated, "Public employers are permitted to curtail employee speech as long as their 'legitimate administrative interests' outweigh the employee's interest in freedom of speech." Legitimate administrative interests? You've got to be kidding. It also approved the district court's characterization of the GNEA employees' speech interests as "vanishingly small."

Unless the Supreme Court reverses these rulings, the words "natural family," "marriage" and "union of a man and a woman" can be banned as hate speech in government workplaces, while Bible and traditional values bashing will receive the highest protection.

Can someone explain how the government has a "legitimate administrative interest" in forbidding the expression of biblically based views; how it is "homophobic" for government employees merely to affirm principles supported by the Bible and thousands of years of civilization, yet not heterophobic and Bible-phobic for government employees to directly trash the Bible and traditional values; how a lesbian employee can claim she was targeted and excluded when nothing was said or done to her, while the real victims, the GNEA employees, were genuinely "targeted" and punished?

Which side here is refusing to "live and let live"? Homosexual groups deny they are pressing for special rights and protection, but no one is shutting down their speech, branding them as hateful, bullying them with threats of firings, and publicly insulting the sacred principles in which they believe. Homosexual groups maintain they are promoting diversity, but seek to suppress diverse viewpoints by labeling them "hateful" and "hurtful."

If people of traditional values don't begin to stand up for themselves, their values, their rights and liberties, it won't be long before it will be a crime, like it is in certain other countries, to recite or publish certain scriptural texts that make radical homosexual groups uncomfortable.

Before you suggest I'm exaggerating, please distinguish such a scenario, in principle, from the above-described series of events involving the GNEA in Oakland, California.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Exactly
Just like the librarian, Scott Savage at OSU, who DARED to SUGGEST a book was smeared all over the internet and threatened by the activists...

Mr Unruh has had some stories at WorldNetDaily about this sort of thing:

"Two Christians in Australia have been indicted for criticizing Islam, and another for criticizing Zionism. A filmmaker has been threatened with arrest for using the word "homosexual" rather than "gay." Now a German priest faces jail time for publicly criticizing abortionists, and in Holland, "fornicators" and "adulterers" are protected classes and cannot be criticized."

It's happening all over.

If we don't USE our voice, we will LOSE it...

How times have changed
Once upon a time:
"I disagree with every word that you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it"
--Voltaire, as paraphrased by his biographer

Today:
"I'm offended! Officer, arrest that man!"


One-way tolerance.
And it's actually not even about one-way tolerance. It's about hypocrisy. The radical left -- in this case the gay lobby -- has a hypocritical agenda. It is not about tolerance at all. It's about acceptance and legitimization. To be more direct, it's about thought control. I don't think it would be too far off to say that this is even a mild form a fascism. It's their way or no way. The gay marriage controversy is a great example. With civil unions, a homosexual can get all the legal rights as a heterosexual, marriage couple. But that's not good enough. Why? Because it's not about the benefits or the legal recognition. It's about public acceptance and legitimization. That, in turn, means it's about thought control -- I am not permitted to believe or think a certain way any more. If I do, I am demonized and might even be sued or arrested.

The radical gay lobby better cool it. They don't want to wake up the sleeping giant that is the conservative/traditional segment of the American population. The gay lobby's been very effective with a tiny minority of the population being really loud. Imagine what will happen when traditionally-minded Americans finally get sick of this and say "Enough!" I'm already there.

Wow have they changed...but not for the
I am in my mid50s and never in my wildest dreams would I have believed 35 years ago that we would have "evolved" into such a state of debasement. The "gay Lobby", along with many other left-wing/secularists groups have done yoeman's work in advancing their agenda. They have used Karl Marx's axiom... indoctrinating the young through false "tolerance" programs in public Schools and Universities. What was always understood to be disordered and immoral has become legitimate. Those whom hold to the old faith based values are now the "demons" or "bigots'. The new hate crimes legislation may even make us criminals.
My God I fear for the future for our kids and grandkids.

Mac
"My God I fear for the future for our kids and grandkids."

You need not fear for the future, its already here. I am 25, and the gay movement was strong, and getting stronger, when i was in high school. It was "cool" for most females and at the very least somewhat acceptable to see two males kissing. We got classes on tolerance that were labeled "diversity training". It gets better. The class was approached from the standpoint of New York being a big melting pot and everyone just "getting along". A family friend (who is about 7 years younger) told me that his class was encouraged to "find out who they are" and to not be afraid to experiment to discover that. The gay agenda is one disease of this country in a long line that is rotting us from the inside out. People my age generally find it acceptable. I have said before though, they find anything acceptable that doesn't take them away from their iPod, laptops, cellphones, or efforts to sleep with another girl this weekend. One day they will wake up and find out that they have lost their voice, that it is not acceptable to not approve of anything, except Christianity of course. The gay culture doesn't desire acceptance, they demand approval.

Creating homos
It's difficult for homos to procreate more homos. This is why they need to work so hard at grooming a never ending new supply of homos.

America is like a garden
Look at these political and moral issues from a gardener’s point of view. In the Bible, the Hebrew definition of “Beulah Land” is “the land is married.” Now the land has a “husbandman” who cares for it, who will till the useless weeds out of it, cultivate the soil, plant good seeds in it, water it and fertilize it, so that it will produce a healthy variety of delicious, nutritious vegetables and pretty flowers. When a gardener sees weeds growing in his garden, he will pull them out; not because of “weed-phobia” or bigotry, but because he wants something more important growing in his garden.

Our Founders were inspired by God to leave the spiritually and morally weed-infested continent of Europe, and separate themselves by 3000 miles of water to start a new garden with good soil and good moral seeds and freedom to worship God.

The Human Rights movement that recently followed from Europe, is now cumbering our Government and society like weeds and invasive species. It's roots are selfishness, dishonesty and deception. It's sap includes pornography and violence in media and entertainment. It's branches include abortion (killing millions of future American citizens) and homosexuality (corrupting millions of other future Americans, so they will be incompetent to be the moms and dads.

There are way too many weeds growing in our American garden. The best weed killer I know is the gospel of Jesus Christ, and especially the love speech filter in Ephesians 4:15,25,29 summarized by “Speak the truth in love.”

Solo,Mac and None
The educational system, the entertainment industry and MSM have been preaching the pro-gay/anti-Christian agenda unabated for years in this country. Their hate for Traditional America has no bounds.


The endless attacks on Christmas? That's the new special talent of the MSM!. The endless attacks on Family Values? That's the full time job of the entertainment industry! And, of course, the radical left has the nation's school system in a state that borders on being beyond repair!

All this has been in high gear for years in this country. Could it get any worse?

Think about whose going to run America in about a year or so. Who do you think the folks at MSM support? The entertainment types who do they like? The educational left are big fans of who? Yep! You guessed it. Hillary and Obama! YES! It could get worse!








Pretend to be Muslim
Then they wouldn't dare bring a lawsuit. By now, everyone should know that leftists will never say anything against Muslims, no matter how reactionary their views are. You can be as homophobic as you like, so long as you pretend you are Muslim.

Plus, whenever anyone in America talks about diversity or tolerance, start talking about foreign sports. Just about everyone in America is bigoted about foreign sports, of course, but it's strange that leftists are bigoted in this way. San Francisco has a baseball team. Are they willing to start up a cricket team, for the sake of "diversity?" Of course not.

Demoralization of America-must see
Here's a Sovient defector who has pretty much nailed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE8MCSu_K-A

The process is complete, folks, now we just have to wait for the rest of the invasion from the south...

I'm confused
So on one hand you have a group of people encouraging others to feel free to live their lives a certain way by promoting "Coming Out Day".

On the other hand, you have a group specifically tells the other group that they're wrong and goes so far as to admonish them as employees by inviting everyone who wishes to preserve "integrity in the workplace" to join their own group.

"Public employers are permitted to curtail employee speech as long as their 'legitimate administrative interests' outweigh the employee's interest in freedom of speech." - I'd think that they had a legitimate administrative interest in suppressing that post/email if the group was telling people they have errant views and have deficient integrity as employees.

Something to Get Mad About
There's an interesting commentary today 6-12 on washingtonpost.com---see "The GOP's Fading Populism" by Peter Beinart. In order to secure the Republican vote, the Republican electorate must be kept riled up (note the tone of townhall's articles day after day)---because when the conservative base is angry, it's more likely to get out and vote.

For the last two elections, anti-gay prejudice moved people to the polls so probably it will be tried again as a motivator. However, some conservatives may have noticed the neat application of "Bait & Switch"---during the 2006 campaign Bush couldn't open his mouth without championing "marriage between a man and a woman" and wafting a Constitutional amendment under conservative noses. But, once safely returned to the White House, he dropped the issue pretty flat and six weeks later told a WP reporter, interviewing him on Air Force One on a Sunday afternoon, that he had no intention of seeking an anti-gay marriage amendment because "I don't have the votes". The next day, Monday, Bush was deluged with angry conservative emails saying, "That's not what you said before the election!".

Do we never learn? Now here we all are again. Another article on today's townhall urges readers to put the kibosh on a cartoon seen as trying to "normalize" gay parenting. I'm not sure what conservatives expect to get out of this exercise in applied bigotry. Raise your hand if you have ever been recruited by a gay person to move in with him or her and share in gay parenting. Nobody? I thought not.

An agenda to normalize homosexuality? How about an agenda to secure the Republican vote by selling the fantasy that you can force the entire United States to your will? Folks, it's not gonna happen. Some people are going to go right on having abortions, swearing, living together without getting married, being gay, and speaking Spanish. Others are going to go right on cleaning their guns and going to church. Can't we all just live happily together under one American roof?

To island
Are you assuming that gay parents raise only gay children? Can you cite some studies that support that? And certainly many gay children had straight parents. So what are you talking about?

Hello chuck
Thank you for the parable. Unfortunately, it leaves out something important, and that is the definition of "weed", so let's try another parable.

When I was a child, sunflowers were considered weeds. They grew unbidden along alleys and ashpits. Nobody would have considered cutting them where they sprang up in vacant lots and bringing them into the house to put into a pretty vase. Today, where I live, sunflowers are sold as cut flowers in florists shops and at the farmers' markets. They cost upward of a dollar per stem. Pictures of sunflowers are painted on placemats and playing cards and window shades and wallpaper. Sunflowers, once despised, have come to be appreciated in their own right. Their shining faces make us feel cheerful.

Just think: if our Creator (or some vigorously anti-sunflower gardener) had rooted out all the tares, er, sunflowers a generation ago, what beauty we would now be missing!

My hand's up!
Lilly: Raise your hand if you have ever been recruited by a gay person to move in with him... Nobody? I thought not.

So, Lilly, you thought...NOT.

Ha!

And who cares what those clowns at Washington Compost write?

I am STILL
having a conversation from June 5th regarding Matt Barber's article (Queerly Beloved). It is AMAZING how some people have convoluted truth. "Straight" people have also been accused of "murdering" a young homosexual boy who laid down on train tracks in California. It is the collective fault of heterosexuals, supposedly, because he felt ostracized from society. It's amazing that these same people talk about a "woman's body" and her "right to choose" yet, when it comes to a young homosexual ending his own life, it suddenly is no longer his body or his choice. Heterosexuals did it to him.
Forget trying to even incorporate the idea of "sin" into discussions with these people. Sin only exists for heterosexuals who won't include the homosexuals agenda into "social policy."

Evil has become good and good is evil....

My grandfather (who died in 1956)always told my mother that there would be many "false prophets" in this world. I daresay, every practicing homosexual should be seen and seen CLEARLY as a false prophet and confused and indoctrinated by satan. Notice I said, "practicing." The inclination toward homosexuality is not sinful in iteself. It is the behavior which is sinful. Same as all adultery and fornication.

Solo610: you are wise beyond your years.

lilly writes: 12, 2007 8:23
Just think: if our Creator (or some vigorously anti-sunflower gardener) had rooted out all the tares, er, sunflowers a generation ago, what beauty we would now be missing!

DESKJOCKEY RESPONDS

Worse yet, just think if our Creator let the Sunflowers start behaving like Kudzu what a problem we be having today. They'd be ravaging all the beautiful trees.

JohnUnderhill thinks
"that they had a legitimate administrative interest in suppressing that post/email if the group was telling people they have errant views and have deficient integrity as employees."

And why is that? Because the bosses are telling them that 'they have errant views and have deficient integrity as employees.'

Funny how that works, isn't it? Does it not occur to you that you are behaving exactly as the article says you will? Next you can tell us how what's good for the goose is NOT good for the gander because it is 'hateful' and 'bigotted' to express one view but not the other...right?

lilly
I get pretty sick of hearing people like you complain about bigots. As I've already suggested in a previous post, virtually all Americans are bigoted against "foreign" sports. Even the most multicultural of multiculturalists cannot manage to inform themselves about (much less like) a sport like cricket. And virtually every leftist over the age of about 40 thinks our sports are superior to foreign sports. If you don't believe me, why is it that, no matter how many soccer-loving immigrants come to this country, even the most progressive of our newspapers still cannot manage to treat soccer as the equal of our sports?

Just off the top of your head, can you name the country that won the most recent cricket World Cup? Do you know what lbw stands for? How about QPR?

And did you know that Lynne Truss wrote a column on soccer in the Times of London before becoming famous for writing a book on punctuation? And have you seen the movie Fever Pitch? I'm not talking about the American version, but the British original that starred Colin Firth whose screenplay was written by Nick Hornby?

I could go on and on about the bigotry of America's leftists on foreign sports.

WHAT A STREACH! SUN FLOWER BASHING?!!
In my 65 years, and my mother's 92, we can't come up with a memory of Sunflowers ever forced to wear the "WEED" label.

Also, Ms./Mr. Lilly throws out her/his challenge,
"Raise your hand if you have ever been recruited by a gay person..." "RECRUITED"?! How about, "...HIT UPON BY A LUST CRAISED, AGAINST NATURE, SEXUAL DEVIATE..."?

I'll raise my hand to that one Ms./Mr. Lilly! However, in my case there were four of them (RECRUITERS, as you put it), and I was 4 years old. And, no, there wasn't any "Don't ask, don't tell B.S. in place then, but I still was afraid to tell my father what had happened. He would shot the molesting bastards! ("HATE SPEECH be damned!)

Dare I say, Ms./Mr. Lilly, your Sunflower proverb, like the demented Gay Cause, sucks.

PLEASE FORGIVE MY RUSH TO JUDGEMENT.
The word is "parable", not "proverb".

lilly: Really?
lilly writes: Tuesday, June, 12, 2007 8:11 AM
Something to Get Mad About
There's an interesting commentary today 6-12 on washingtonpost.com---see "The GOP's Fading Populism" by Peter Beinart. In order to secure the Republican vote, the Republican electorate must be kept riled up (note the tone of townhall's articles day after day)---because when the conservative base is angry, it's more likely to get out and vote.

+ Really? As opposed to the “populism” practiced by the majority of minority clergy and/or “civil rights” activists who actively encourage their entitlement-minded hyphenated- American flocks to get angry (e.g. "mass burning churches" myth) & vote Democrat IOT continue to ensure their government-sanctioned “victim” status? Not all black-Americans- just the 80% that vote in block IOT support the party that routinely engages in the racial spoilage game in perpetuity: Affirmative Action, quotes, welfare state, earned income tax credit, etc. I’m also speaking as a minimally franchised white male who none the less is part of the majority of the top 50% of income earners in this country that pay 96% of the income taxes- taxes that finance that welfare state that inordinately benefits the aforementioned hyphenated-American voting block. I think that you suffer from the same group-think. Kindly remove yourself from the “Plantation” and start thinking as an individual.


For the last two elections, anti-gay prejudice moved people to the polls so probably it will be tried again as a motivator. However, some conservatives may have noticed the neat application of "Bait & Switch"---during the 2006 campaign Bush couldn't open his mouth without championing "marriage between a man and a woman" and wafting a Constitutional amendment under conservative noses. But, once safely returned to the White House, he dropped the issue pretty flat and six weeks later told a WP reporter, interviewing him on Air Force One on a Sunday afternoon, that he had no intention of seeking an anti-gay marriage amendment because "I don't have the votes". The next day, Monday, Bush was deluged with angry conservative emails saying, "That's not what you said before the election!".

+Do you often replace rational discourse w/ left wing “shaming language? Apparently the hue of your skin grants you automatic “gravitas” when it comes to discussing PC topics. This about a group of people who are sick of another group of people wearing their respective sexual orientation on their collective shoulders like a badge of honor. WRT the concept of “anti-gay prejudice”, radical homosexuals (i.e., CONGENITAL SEXUAL DYSLEXICS) routinely employ left-wing “invalidation tactics” (i.e., HOMOPHOBIA-label) IOT marginalize those who disagree with them. Ironically, most reasonable people are HOMO-HOSTILE like me: I don’t fear homosexuals & I think that they have right to privacy like everyone else, but don’t ever try to convince me that such behavior in “NORMAL.” I have a problem with anyone (like the late Dr. Falwell) bringing in their own biblical interpretation into the argument, but I also have a problem with homosexuals trying to attain de facto “normalization” for their behavior via activist judges. Or maybe Darwin was wrong?

Do we never learn? Now here we all are again. Another article on today's townhall urges readers to put the kibosh on a cartoon seen as trying to "normalize" gay parenting. I'm not sure what conservatives expect to get out of this exercise in applied bigotry. Raise your hand if you have ever been recruited by a gay person to move in with him or her and share in gay parenting. Nobody? I thought not.

+ More shaming language. There are not a more intolerant group of people than you average middle-aged, hyphenated-American female. Being members of a government sanctioned “victim group” apparently grants them an esoteric insight on all matters pertaining to the reality in general and the human condition in particular. If the rest of us were intelligent enough to appreciate the subtle beauty of social engineering (group entitlements/debts, gender/racial quotas, wealth-redistribution, etc.) we would of course be leftists as well. Hence, because we don't agree with the dominant leftist-paradigm we must be bigots. Your subsequent recruitment comment is ridiculous. You must have been quite the autocratic tyrant in your class room, since your pedestrian intellect apparently developed in an environment of ideological homogenity.

An agenda to normalize homosexuality? How about an agenda to secure the Republican vote by selling the fantasy that you can force the entire United States to your will? Folks, it's not gonna happen. Some people are going to go right on having abortions, swearing, living together without getting married, being gay, and speaking Spanish. Others are going to go right on cleaning their guns and going to church. Can't we all just live happily together under one American roof?

+ Charming segue. Which ideology has firmly established “hate speech” codes on most university campuses IOT silence criticism of the mainstream neo-Marxist paradigm? Which party, now in control of Congress, is currently talking about the end of “Talk Radio” (and other alternatives to the Pro-Left MSM) via the imposition of the so-called “Fairness Doctrine?” This is also the same party that essentially authored the sexist & unconstitutional "Violence Against Women Act" (VAWA.) Reality: women are just as capable of domestic violence as men; women commit the majority of child abuse; & women (10%-30% depending upon estimates) routinely commit the most despicable form for domestic abuse: paternity fraud.

+ Speaking as a Jesuit-educated Deist who none the less believes in the salient values associated w/ Judeo-Christian Philosophy, I nevertheless have a strong libertarian streak: “Morality” shouldn’t be legislated, but “Amorality” shouldn’t be subsidized. Most of the people cited in your last paragraph think that they are entitled to live responsibility optional, consequence free alternative lifestyles financed by the white, heterosexual male peons who form the majority of the income tax base. The 18-19th century Libertines at least had the class to deal with the after-effects of their wonton behavior without expecting society to foot the bill. Sexual “Morality” shouldn’t be legislated, but sexual “Amorality” shouldn’t be subsidized, e.g., “welfare state industrial complex” enabling female irresponsibility & promiscuity. It may be “Her Body”, but there is still the matter of “My Wallet.”

BTW, has your husband recovered from his hospital stay?

Just a few minutes ago
I posted a response to a columnist thanking her for writing a column that was informative and interesting without relying on the usual moralizing and pompous sanctimoniousness that attracts contributors who like to post on Mike Gallagher and Kevin McDonough - I forgot, before hitting the "post you comments" button, to include David Limbaugh. Actually, I always hope that columns like this will be the ideological, half-baked flypaper that attract that half-baked rants of marginal ideologues, leaving space for real ideas on the other threads.

Actually, they kind of are.

Gay "rights"
In Wisconsin we approved an amendment to our constitution saying marriage was between a man and a woman and Dems won the governorship and the Senate! I told people that this was not about marriage but free speech. How chilling that "legitimate administrative interest" sounds like "Yes master."

Six Words for Homosexuals
Tolerance: Grudgingly
Acceptance: Hardly
Subsidy: Never!!!

Tolerance
Tolerance Tolerates Intolerance. It must or it loses all meaning.

And tolerance always implies a degree of discomfort and pain being overlooked for a higher purpose. If there is no discomfort, it's not "tolerance" but "acceptance".

Let get this straight --
" A lesbian employee complained to the city attorney's office that the flier made her feel "targeted" and "excluded," which prompted a supervisor to remove it because it violated the city's anti-discrimination rules."

SO CAN I, a "straight," married, mother, practicing (or observant) Catholic, born of Legal immigrants -- can I comeplain now? Will my complaint be heard as loudly as another's "singular" voice????

No? Well why the heck not???? Why are MY RIGHTS, MY LIFESTYLE, MY BELIEFS and MY VIEWS NOT AS IMPORTANT???

I am so sick of the abuses and rulings by the "minorities."

Someone "does not like saying "the Pledge" so we stop saying it. Someone else does not like to sing graces before meals so we stop. Someone else does not like wearing what everyone else is wearing -- we are no longer visible, no more uniforms... It's happened to Girl Scouting, they're trying real hard with Boy Scouting, it has happened in our public schools. It is happening everywhere.

I agree, it has to stop. But are "we" too late?

sloopy
sloopy writes:
"And why is that? Because the bosses are telling them that 'they have errant views and have deficient integrity as employees.' Funny how that works, isn't it? Does it not occur to you that you are behaving exactly as the article says you will? Next you can tell us how what's good for the goose is NOT good for the gander because it is 'hateful' and 'bigotted' to express one view but not the other...right?"

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that telling people that their lifestyle is wrong and that they are deficient employees because of it will negatively affect said employees, and thus in an effort to create a harmonious work-place environment, they have a legitimate interest in surpessing such dialogue. This is obviously at the discretion of the employer, and should equally apply to, say, a "radical homosexual activist" telling a Christian that they're a bad employee because they believe everything in the Bible. I haven't seen that this was the case here, other than supposedly a post saying in essence that a person disagrees with portions of the Bible. This is certainly heading in the same direction of detrimental speech, but certainly didn't go as far as the GNEA post did.

AF_retiree_2001

"Let get this straight --
" A lesbian employee complained to the city attorney's office that the flier made her feel "targeted" and "excluded," which prompted a supervisor to remove it because it violated the city's anti-discrimination rules."

SO CAN I, a "straight," married, mother, practicing (or observant) Catholic, born of Legal immigrants -- can I comeplain now? Will my complaint be heard as loudly as another's "singular" voice????"


Yeah, actually...

If somebody posted a flier in your workplace that dispared your religious views, you could complain to Human Recources and seek a ban on the offending material. 99 times out of 100, the employer will deal with the issue and try to solve your complaint. If not, you can take your employer before the state in civil action.

You people need to get over yourselves. I see a lot of crying in here because you don't get to insult or disparage GLBT people in the workplace without consequences. Pathetic and childish.

A lesbian felt excluded?
I'm only 5" 7" and can't jump (yep, you guessed it, I'm a white male). Should I feel excluded and left out because I am never invited to the Friday night basketball pick-up games with the other men I work with? I want to play basketball, but I was not born with the proper equipment (fast-twich leg muscles, long wing-span, height, etc.). Should my employer prevent e-mails between the employees related to their basketball schedule, or prevent them from posting the location and time of the next game on the bulletin board in the lunchroom because it is exclusive and intolerant of short white men? GMAFB. And what about the obese female clerks in our office? They never get invited to play either. Aren't these guys sexist as well?

If you had....
If you had known you were different from the first day of 5th grade; if you had spent your middle- and high-school years in fear of mean classmates catching you looking at the wrong person for too long, or hanging out with girls too much, and making your life a living hell; if you had suffered through the terror of coming out to your parents, honestly not sure if it might be your last conversation with them; if you had struggled your whole life trying to accept the faith of your parents and grandparents, smiling at everyone in a church that you knew wouldn't accept you if they knew the truth; if you had to teach yourself how to build a healthy relationship because the normal rules don't apply and you just know you're so happy together; if you knew beyond a doubt you were living the best life you possibly could:

You would be asking for acceptance, too. Screw tolerance. You're damn right we want acceptance, and full equality. And we're not going anywhere. Sorry, folks, it's gonna be a long fight.

By the by, I think it's hilarious that part of the infallible Word of God would be deemed hate speech. Only in America. You guys must be PISSED.

JohnUnderhill
Where exactly do you see the statement about being deficient employees? I don't see it anywhere in this article...

I DO, however, see that the bosses told the GNEA in no uncertain terms that THEY were deficient employees for professing THEIR belief system.

I see where the GNEA grouped questioned whether these communications were "legitimate city business". When told that it WAS, because the city celebrates 'diversity', they started their own group. Both groups are exclusive of the others ideals, both expressed their opinions (DIVERSE opinions). But, our government thinks one type of opinion is better than the other....

So, it seems to me that this is EXACTLY what you are saying..it is okay for certain opinions to be suppressed by the government and others fostered.

These Examples...
... of selective tolerance show that the Left is simply incapable of rationality. We Christians simply have to do more than use our voices or lose them.

For starters, we must vow to disobey any and all public policies that forbid us from speaking out against perversion or which attempt to tell us what our beliefs and dogmas should be. We are here to be faithful to the Gospels according to Jesus Christ, not the Gospel according to Karl Marx or Hugh Hefner.

The second step should be to make active plans for creating Christian republics in place of the so-called Western democracies. The former Republic of South Africa had a motto which I think is very appropriate concerning our relationship with the Left: Dominate or be Dominated. Memorize it.

And in the interim, maybe giving the Left a little taste of its own medicine is in order: concerning homofruitic groups, I suggest a little turnabout: we start shutting down their speech, branding them as hateful, bullying them with threats of firings, and publicly insulting the sacred principles in which they believe.

Let's get to work. We have a great deal to lose and a world to win.

Liberal Nonsense
Isn't it ironic that The Gay Lobby is always sneaking up from behind :)?

Typical Liberals, this garbage CONSTANTLY get shot down at The Ballot Box, so they try to RAM IT through The Courts and therefore, DOWN OUR THROATS!

SPEAK UP AMERICA! Tell The Gay Lobby to TAKE A HIKE!

the flash
the flash writes:
"I'm only 5' 7" and can't jump (yep, you guessed it, I'm a white male). Should I feel excluded and left out because I am never invited to the Friday night basketball pick-up games with the other men I work with? I want to play basketball, but I was not born with the proper equipment (fast-twich leg muscles, long wing-span, height, etc.). Should my employer prevent e-mails between the employees related to their basketball schedule, or prevent them from posting the location and time of the next game on the bulletin board in the lunchroom because it is exclusive and intolerant of short white men? GMAFB. And what about the obese female clerks in our office? They never get invited to play either. Aren't these guys sexist as well?"

I'd think you would have a beef if the basketball team sent emails saying "We oppose opening the team to white guys under 6 feet and obese women. Everyone else, if you want to continue to have a work-place of integrity, join our team.".

I Have Been...
Lilly...

I was approached by a homosexual in a forceful way. Sixty years ago. In a small town in Oklahoma. And it scared the stuffing out of me.

Tolerate them? Of course. Love them? Of course. As creatures of God, of course.

Accept them? Celebrate them? Never.

Lyin' and Cryin'
"Celtic Dragon" types, " I see a lot of crying in here because you don't get to insult or disparage GLBT people in the workplace without consequences."

Point out the insult or disparagement in the material quoted above.

Speaking of crying, "JeffRob" whines, "If you had known you were different from the first day of 5th grade..."

But, wait! I thought you "GLBT people" were different FROM BIRTH! What took you so long?

JeffRob
When I started college, I was too small for football and too short for basketball. I felt excluded. Can't you see how unfair it is for our schools to privilege the oversized?

Are you going to do anything about it? Do you plan to protest so that the rest of us can feel included?

No, of course you're not.

Hands up
Rich D. writes: My hand's up!
Lilly: Raise your hand if you have ever been recruited by a gay person to move in with him... Nobody? I thought not.

=================================================

He didn't ask him to move in with him, but the homo down the street asked my 8 year son to engage in an unnatural act. Then he suffered bizarre accident in which he repeatedly fell off the curb and broke his skull, nose, left shoulder blade, several ribs.....

YAWN
This issue is soooooo over even on the right

Raising my hand
...

California
I sure wish I lived in the Gay, I mean Bay Area. Outrageous cost of living, earthquakes, the 9th Circus Court of Appeals, crappy weather, and you can't use the public restrooms or pick up any change you dropped. Sounds like a blast.

AZPhil
Sounds like you might really mean it LMAO

Kathy: Give It Up
Kathy, I believe every word you said, but evoking the name of the Lord is not going to convince someone like JeffRobb of anything. You have to use logic and reason, not faith. But, that, too, is often a lost cause, because they will reject a logical argument as soon as it leads to a conclusion that makes them feel uncomfortable.

Gayness may be a genetic mutation, a birth defect, that becomes apparent during adolescence, when sex hormones kick in, but that does not make it normal. If true, they may even become eligible for benefits under the ADA.

But just as someone born without legs will never become eligible for the NBA draft, someone born with a predilection toward others of the same sex should not be eligible for a marriage license. Religion does not need to enter the argument. Heterosexual intercourse is the most efficient, safe, and natural way to create the next generation of the human race. The institution of marriage (please don't use sacrement or you loose the argument because of separatation of church and state), was created to insure that a society continues itself and that each generation is born into a situation where they can be raised by their biological procreators. Just as not all branches of a tree can bear fruit, the pruner need not cut them off the tree. The barren branches just have to accept that they can only offer shade, not fruit.
Gay people cannot accept their own reality that they are not given the gift of being able to carry on their family tree.

Some heterosexual marriages are barren also, but this is either by intentional birth control, or more often than not, the discovery, well into a marraige originally made with the intention of bearing children, that one or both parties are infertile. This is not the case with homosexuals wishing to live together. They know in advance, that no matter how hard they try, their version of sex will never produce ofspring. This is not a religious believe, but biologic fact.

Hal
Just being facetious, and I was LMAO when I wrote it. I'm so glad I can choose not to live there.

To JohnUnderHill:
You suggested: "I'd think you would have a beef if the basketball team sent emails saying "We oppose opening the team to white guys under 6 feet and obese women. Everyone else, if you want to continue to have a work-place of integrity, join our team.".

I wouldn't have a problem with, and I don't think any obese woman would. We accept our limitations and realize we would let any team down by stepping onto the court. We don't whine about our shortcomings and ask that the rules of the world or the workplace be changed for us.

the flash
"This is not a religious believe, but biologic fact."

Gays have been with us from the beginning and cannot be "breed out" using your logic implied above then gays must have some useful biologic trait

Who are the REAL "Loud People?"
If you don't ask, I won't tell.

Hockey Goon
Good Job! You should've broken at least 1 leg for good measure! At some point, you WILL HEAR from a Liberal saying this PERVERT was only being honest with himself.

sloopy
sloopy writes:
"Where exactly do you see the statement about being deficient employees? I don't see it anywhere in this article..."

Sorry, I should have provided a link to that. Typically, Townhall columnists rarely give you all the facts and leave out certain details that could damage their position. So I went to the original article Limbaugh cited.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20070610-111445-6957r.htm


sloopy writes:
"I DO, however, see that the bosses told the GNEA in no uncertain terms that THEY were deficient employees for professing THEIR belief system.

I see where the GNEA grouped questioned whether these communications were "legitimate city business". When told that it WAS, because the city celebrates 'diversity', they started their own group. Both groups are exclusive of the others ideals, both expressed their opinions (DIVERSE opinions). But, our government thinks one type of opinion is better than the other....

So, it seems to me that this is EXACTLY what you are saying..it is okay for certain opinions to be suppressed by the government and others fostered."

Yes, I am saying that "it is okay for certain opinions to be suppressed by the government and others fostered". If opinions have a negative effect on the work-place, then they should be suppressed, and others that are benign should not. The court agrees with me: "Public employers are permitted to curtail employee speech as long as their 'legitimate administrative interests' outweigh the employee's interest in freedom of speech." Diverse opinions are welcomed, only insofar as they don't negatively effect other employees. I don't think it is exactly a 100% open/shut case here that the GNEA negatively affected gay employees, but I tend to think that it did, given their "preserving a workplace with integrity" statement. That statement demonstrates a lack of desire to work with homosexual employees, an idea which the employer should not have allowed to foster.

AZPhil
Phil I knew that. it was my way of saying hello LOL

Hal
Shouldn't we have evolved away from homosexuality, a clear detriment to reproduction and thus survival of the species?

AZPhil
One would think that UNLESS it provides the species a clear competitive advantage. So my thoughts are along the lines of they must provide humanity some kind of competitive advantage

Hal Donahue asks:
"Gays have been with us from the beginning and cannot be "breed out" using your logic implied above then gays must have some useful biologic trait"

Not true, only the useful biologic traits that have to do with survival of the species are enhanced through natural selection. Because of the constant mixing of the gene pool, every once in a while a bad combination comes up and withers on the vine so to speak. Inbreading would enhance the probability of those mutations. The genes that predispose so many of us to arthritis when we age have no useful biologic purpose, but are not weeded out of the gene pool because we pass them on to the next generation before they kick in. A genetic mutation like homosexuality is self-limiting to one generation. Natural selection can tolerate these sorts of abberations as long as they do not increase in frequency to the point were a species cannot replace itself. If gays are allowed to pass their genetic defects through artificial fertility procedures, we may poison the gene pool sufficient over generations to the point where we do.

Leave reproduction to those who can, and tolerate the small percentages of mistakes of nature. You should feel sorry for them, but you don't have to reorganize the entire world for them.

JohnUnderHill
I read your link and I still don't see the statement you claim.


"Yes, I am saying that "it is okay for certain opinions to be suppressed by the government and others fostered"

Wow....

"If opinions have a negative effect on the work-place, then they should be suppressed, and others that are benign should not."

That is certainly true when speaking of private employers. It is interesting that you feel it's okay for the government to do this, though. I suppose you are currently comfortable with their opinions about what speech is benign and what speech is not. Not exactly farsighted.

JohnUnderhill
You write:

------------------
So on one hand you have a group of people encouraging others to feel free to live their lives a certain way by promoting "Coming Out Day".

On the other hand, you have a group specifically tells the other group that they're wrong and goes so far as to admonish them as employees by inviting everyone who wishes to preserve "integrity in the workplace" to join their own group.
------------------

So, the homosexuals can call the Christians "wrong", tell them their way of life is reprehensible and tell them they should not be accepted?

You see, tolerance is a two way street. You can't speak out for tolerating homosexuality then argue in favor of persecuting Christians.

And, yes, religions say some behaviors are good and some bad. Sorry, but that is they way of religion. But you call it intolerance.

But when the left says some things are good (homosexuality) and some bad (Christianity) you call it tolerance, and pretend they are just "accepting everyone".

How can you claim silencing a group is accepting everyone?

J
Since you are claiming Limbaugh purposely left out details from the article he cited that could hurt his argument, specifically, the the statement about being deficient employees, I think you should back that up. Either I'm just being blind or it is not there.

Another gospel…

‘How it is "homophobic" for government employees merely to affirm principles supported by the Bible and thousands of years of civilization, yet not heterophobic and Bible-phobic for government employees to directly trash the Bible and traditional values?’ –David Limbaugh

Good question Mr. Limbaugh! Why wouldn’t all reasonable people agree with you?

Is there not a presumption in the culture that we as a people must move past the moral restrictions previously imposed on us by our forefathers who loved the Scriptures? All men must be accepted as they are. Sin is a thing of the past. Some even say that God made them that way. How could we question that? No need of redemption or Christ.

The world is relentless in its assault on Christ and His people because the Christian ethic stands in opposition to the spirit of lawlessness.

We lament that the culture has rejected the authority of the Scriptures. But why should we find this surprising when the visible church in most part has also rejected its authority. We have forsaken the doctrines of Biblical Christianity and exchanged them for the doctrines of men. The church has lost its influence because it has left its authority.

Does the Bible not teach the doctrines of original sin and the spiritual deadness of all men without hope except in the sovereign grace of God? This is the gospel that transforms men and cultures. The great revivals of Biblical Christianity called the Protestant Reformation and the Great Awakening are the historical examples that the Spirit of Truth will bless the preaching of truth.

Yet, today we are told from the pulpit that men are not so completely dead in sin that he cannot help himself. He has a ticket to heaven in his pocket called faith. God has done everything he can to help us in Christ. But we must exercise our free will and pull out our ticket in order to be born again. This is another gospel and will never transform men so that they transform a culture.


the flash
"The genes that predispose so many of us to arthritis when we age have no useful biologic purpose, but are not weeded out of the gene pool because we pass them on to the next generation before they kick in." ah but the genepool ensures that only those who are older get that disability. Since homosexuality begins early in life it seems more like a trait that enhances not survival like keen eyesight or excellent hearing?

WHaaaa?
This is idiotic. How many inherited diseases are there? Thousands? Hemophilia? Down's Syndrome? ETC ETC

the flash
you wrote: "The institution of marriage ... was created to insure that a society continues itself..."

The truth in that statement is arguable, at best, but regardless, considering that the human race is hardly having any problem continuing itself, isn't it more important that marriage be continued to insure that stable, loving families can be recognized, and encouraged as such, legally? Does the pro-creative value really trump the simple desire to be with the person you love? Doesn't that remind you of the "honor" arranged marriages traditionally bring to families in the east, denying countless young couples in love the chance to decide for themselves?

What about heterosexual couples who know beforehand they won't conceive? Are they living in sin?

What is it with Christians and the yet-to-be-born?! We have enough to worry about with the people that are already here.

Did you hear that?
I said WE HAVE ENOUGH TO WORRY ABOUT WITH THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ALREADY HERE. Please stop worrying about the not-here-yet, for petessake.

Not to mention
if you think only people who are older get arthritis you are sadly misinformed.

Hal
But i'd be hard-pressed to say what clear-cut advantage a species gains by NOT BEING ABLE TO REPRODUCE. It seems to me that homsexuality, like, for example, sterility, would guarantee the extinction of a species.

It's not confusion; it's distortion
"So on one hand you have a group of people encouraging others to feel free to live their lives a certain way by promoting 'Coming Out Day'.... On the other hand, you have a group specifically tells the other group that they're wrong and goes so far as to admonish them as employees by inviting everyone who wishes to preserve 'integrity in the workplace' to join their own group."

Such a selective and misleading synopsis of the situation can only be deliberate.

Completely ignored are blatant attacks upon religious views and icons and differing viewpoints ("I personally think the good book needs some updating."; establishment of an 'altar' for the Day of the Dead; an "anti-Iraq war teach-in") and the response of the employer to concerns expressed by other employees regarding how those messages made THEM feel:

"When other employees questioned whether these communications were legitimate city business, a city council member fired back an e-mail saying that a 'celebration of the gay/lesbian culture and movement' was part of the city's role to 'celebrate diversity.'"

Moreover, at no time has the GNEA group been demonstrated to have told anyone "that they're wrong" (perhaps by saying that the gay agenda 'needs some updating') or "admonishing" [anyone] as employess". Such a characterization is a blatant falsehood.

Nothing more can be assumed from the group's literature than that "workplace integrity" is preserved by permitting "people of faith to express their views on the contemporary issues of the day." It can not be assumed (imbecilic accusations of homophobia, notwithstanding) that it is an attack upon anyone.

It is certainly true that "Public employers are permitted to curtail employee speech as long as their 'legitimate administrative interests' outweigh the employee's interest in freedom of speech." However, as both a matter of law and common sense, such a policy must be administered without bias. Either viewpoints on the subject (from either side) are inappropriate in the workplace OR the expression of such views (again, from either side) supports the employer's interest in "celebrating diversity".

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Attempting to portray the views of people of faith as exclusionary while the views of those expressly opposed to THEIR viewpoints as "encouraging others to feel free to live their lives in a certain way" isn't merely distortion. It;s a bald-faced lie.

Justice is supposed to be blind (and treat everyone (homosexuals, religious people, whites, blacks, rich, poor) the same. It's not supposed to be STUPID. But that's how the Ninth Circuit almost invariably rules.

sincere question
I am a Christian and hold the biblical conviction that homosexual behavior is sin along withs any sex outside of marriage. Although I do hold an unshakable conviction that God dearly loves homosexuals, I am convinced that gay marriage and much of the gay agenda would be harmful for our country. I also do not wish to subsidize directly or indirectly said agenda neither do I wish the state to promote it. I understand that many of you do not concur. That is certainly your right and I expect you to oppose my views. I think we can do that without mutually berating one another.

My question is, 'Is there any conceivable scenerio in which you think it would be acceptable for me to express my views in the public square and in which you would tolerate my right to do so?

AZPhil
not if they somehow make society stronger. This is an extreme example but maybe by they make the best soldiers? War results in the loss of prime breeders if gays made great soldiers it would make some sense. Granted an extreme example but good to highlight my thoughts here

Thank you
That's what I thought.

Sloopy
To answer your question: "How many inherited diseases are there?" A lot.

Doesn't this ever make you question evolution, when all the things you mentioned plus nearsightedness and sickle-cell anemia are passed on? If evolution weeds out the "unfit", why do we never see a decrease in birth defects unless via some invention?

Hal Donahue quips:
"Since homosexuality begins early in life it seems more like a trait that enhances not survival like keen eyesight or excellent hearing?"

The appendix no longer serves any useful purpose but we are all born with it. Some people are also born with six lumbar vertibra or four instead of the usual five. These varients neither interfere nor enhance the survival of the species. Perhaps homosexuality is like our vestigial tail-bone, no longer needed for survival of the species, but because it occurs so rarely, it had no impact on the species. You forget that natural selection is for the survival of the SPECIES, not any one individual.

Unlike keen eyesight or excellent hearing, which is important for the survival of the species, (you have to surivive long enough not only to reproduce, but raise your offspring long enough and provide them with enough skills so that they can do the same, homosexuality is not necessary, and therefore is not enhanced through natural selection, which explains why it never increases in incidence in nature. Allowing gays to introduce their defective genetic material into the gene pool through unnatural reproduction is dangerous to the survival of the species.

sloopy
sloopy writes:
"I read your link and I still don't see the statement you claim."

The article states: "Anyone who wanted to help preserve "integrity in the workplace" was invited to contact the two employees: Regina Rederford and Robin Christy."
This is where I get my claim about deficient integrity.

sloopy writes:
"That is certainly true when speaking of private employers. It is interesting that you feel it's okay for the government to do this, though. I suppose you are currently comfortable with their opinions about what speech is benign and what speech is not. Not exactly farsighted."

There is a difference between the government taking action against private citizens and taking action against its employees. No, I'm not comfortable at all with them discerning whether speech is benign or not, but I recognize that it is necessary for them to do so in the work environment. Do you think it would be better if government employees were allowed to say anything they want, or should there be some censorship in order to ensure a healthy workplace?

BTW, John
Thanks for the link. It doesn't indicate that anything is missing from the column nor does it support your assertion that the GNEA indicated that others were "deficient employees".

But, hey, thanks for playing!

Fight
"Sorry, folks, it's gonna be a long fight."
Which you will ultimately lose.

Again
You cannot assume that the "integrity of the workplace" is supported by anything more than the freedom to express their views. It is a gross misrepresentation to portray the position of the GNEA in the manner in which you insist.

Hmmm
Does all this conversation mean that everyone in here agrees there is evolution?

Fletch is right
The link doesn't indicate anything is missing, as was asserted.

The article states: "Anyone who wanted to help preserve "integrity in the workplace" was invited to contact the two employees: Regina Rederford and Robin Christy."
This is where I get my claim about deficient integrity.

whaaa? Anyone can contact them....no one is named as lacking integrity....no on is called a "deficient employee"....

Fletch is correct. It's distortion. At best.

And here you say "No, I'm not comfortable at all with them discerning whether speech is benign or not, but I recognize that it is necessary for them to do so in the work environment"

Earlier you say ""Yes, I am saying that "it is okay for certain opinions to be suppressed by the government and others fostered"

You ask me "Do you think it would be better if government employees were allowed to say anything they want, or should there be some censorship in order to ensure a healthy workplace?"

Of COURSE employees can be subject to censorship in the workplace.

My question for you is, why are you saying it is okay for only certain employees, with certain views to be censored, while other employees with other views are fostered? Don't you think that either they should ALL be allowed to use this city system to promote their organizations and viewpoints or, alternatively, none should be allowed to do so?

One group makes the other uncomfortable. Well, the reverse is equally true.

I submit that the only reason you are okay with this is you agree with the viewpoint that is being fostered and disagree with the viewpoint that is being repressed. Would you be okay with this if the situation were reversed?


Hal
Yes, a good example, but not very convincing. I personally don't care if people are gay. However, I don't want them recruiting me or my kids. And for their own sake, wearing leather chaps and marching in parades, then demanding that everyone else call you "normal", is counterproductive.

Hal
I'm agnostic on evolution. Not convinced of its veracity, and don't believe it's been disproven either.

wbheff
"Sorry, folks, it's gonna be a long fight."

"Which you will ultimately lose."

We'll see. The fact that there are Pride parades in every major city in the world every year, not to mention small towns, most of which get bigger and bigger every year, doesn't look good for your cause.

Of course, I understand that Christianity has a built-in loophole. You can fight as hard as you want, but in the end, or when you're tired of fighting, you can just declare everyone on the Left is "of this world", and of no concern to you, and that your reward is in heaven. You have license to "throw your hands up", as it were, and wait to be lifted in to the skies.

You also have license to maintain that all the efforts of the Left are nothing but The Work of the Devil. Nothing we say matters because it's nothing more than Satan talking through us, worthy of no respect or tolerance from any God-fearing American, not even worthy of a place at the table. We have simply strayed from the path God chose. How can we expect you to be persuaded when we are the voice of the enemy to you? Why do you have so many enemies?

Overly simplistic, rife with loopholes and inconsistencies, and dominated by antequated worldviews. This is your foundation.

Your rewards are in heaven; so give up here.

Elizabethbennet
You can stand in a public forum all day long and spout whatever you like. I see preachers calling me and other folks names and whatever all the time on the public access channel. Of course, I get to say whatever I like as well, whether you like it or not. Also, your and my employers can force us both to shut up and do our jobs when we are on company time. If you live in a right to work state, your employer may be able to discipline you for things you do or say outside of the workplace if your speech can bring disrepute on the company.

AZPhil
I occasionally get hit on but hey I just say happily married thank you and end of story just like the odd woman with similar poor taste in men. It doesn't bother me any.

Kids are a different beast and there are far more hetros guilty of that but still wrong in any case. From the gay groups I have talked with it is more about equal rights like hospital rights when partners are ill etc.

wgbheff

Fight
"Sorry, folks, it's gonna be a long fight."
Which you will ultimately lose.


Wrong. Go see any survey of people under 30. They are SO over this issue. You are one of the last of your sort, and will be looked at the same that Klansmen are now seen today: an irrelevant anachronism.

JeffRobb is concerned:
He asks:
"What about heterosexual couples who know beforehand they won't conceive? Are they living in sin?"

Answer:
What has sin got to with it anything in a secular society? Heterosexual couples who "know beforehand the won't conceive" don't need marraige or the legal protections it offers like laws of inheritance, or tax deductions for dependent children. They can just live together. Power of attorney agreements would insure they can visit each other in the hospital and make medical decisions and decide who gets what when they die. However, unless the woman is well past menopause, very few are absolutely 100% sure they won't conceive. Ask the thousands of women who wanted children and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars at fertility clinics without result, about their "miracle" babies that they had "au naturale" a few years later when they gave up trying and just had sex for fun. Gay unions are guaranteed, 100%, of being barren and therefore don't need the advantages that legal marraige offers.

Question#2:
"What is it with Christians and the yet-to-be-born?! We have enough to worry about with the people that are already here."

What has Christianity have to do with this? Natural selection is driven by the urge to reproduce. Only someone who is not so driven would ask such a question.

Question #3:
Did you hear that?
I said WE HAVE ENOUGH TO WORRY ABOUT WITH THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ALREADY HERE. Please stop worrying about the not-here-yet"

You should worry about the "not-here-yet" because if they don't get here, who will take care of you when you are too old and you lover has died already? Who will enter the workforce and pay their taxed for your social security checks and Medicare benefits? Who will fill the schools and employ the teachers? Who will buy the gameboys and Pampers and create the need for three bedroom homes and minivans, and the rest of the infrasructure that drives the nation's economy for the benefit of all? This is not about relgion, but about survival. There was a movie recently that tried to depect a world where babies stopped being born. Not a world I would want to live in.

Let me ask you a question: Why do we bother worrying about global warming, or air and water pollution, or acid rain, or nuclear waste leaking into groundwater, or AIDS contamination of the blood supply, or even research into a cure for AIDS if its not to ensure a planet inhabitable by the not yet born.

I will say it again folks
This subject is dead, over, finished and now moved on to boring. Want to know why? I talked to a very conservative churh lady and her group about my candidate the questioning was shall we say tough but none were about gays no questions at all. I asked the sponsor after and she said "everyone has one and my aunt milly is a nice lady".

Equal Rights
"From the gay groups I have talked with it is more about equal rights like hospital rights when partners are ill etc."

There is no problem getting that now, as long as you plan ahead, like any other unmarried couple.

F1etch
F1etch writes:
"Completely ignored are blatant attacks upon religious views and icons and differing viewpoints ("I personally think the good book needs some updating."; establishment of an 'altar' for the Day of the Dead; an "anti-Iraq war teach-in") and the response of the employer to concerns expressed by other employees regarding how those messages made THEM feel:"

I actually am unclear on how the "establishment of an 'altar' for the Day of the Dead" idea is an attack upon religion. The "anti-Iraq war teach-in" idea is unrelated to the lawsuit. And as I said above, the statement "I personally think the good book needs some updating" is certainly heading in the same direction of detrimental speech, but certainly didn't go as far as the GNEA post did.

"Moreover, at no time has the GNEA group been demonstrated to have told anyone "that they're wrong" (perhaps by saying that the gay agenda 'needs some updating') or "admonishing" [anyone] as employess". Such a characterization is a blatant falsehood."

You disagree that forming an opposition group to preserve "integrity in the workplace" is a statement of admonishment of them?

"Nothing more can be assumed from the group's literature than that "workplace integrity" is preserved by permitting "people of faith to express their views on the contemporary issues of the day." It can not be assumed (imbecilic accusations of homophobia, notwithstanding) that it is an attack upon anyone."

As Limbaugh out it, they "formed the Good News Employee Association (GNEA) to challenge activities of a previously formed group of homosexual employees". They then stated their disagreement with the previously formed group, and proceeded to encourage people to join them in preserving "integrity in the workplace". How is this not and attack on the integrity of the other employees?

sloopy
An easy answer but absolutely not true in every state or even areas of states. That is a fact.

AZPhil
"Doesn't this ever make you question evolution, when all the things you mentioned plus nearsightedness and sickle-cell anemia are passed on? If evolution weeds out the "unfit", why do we never see a decrease in birth defects unless via some invention?"

Natural selection weeds out the "unfit" in nature, which is why lions and other predators tend to select the old, the sick or infirm. They are easier prey. There are any number of genetic problems that can continue to be pssed along that are lethal when expressed, since they are recessive in nature.

You need to go back and take high school biology. Tay-Sachs is an example. It is a neorological disease that kills its' victems before the age of five, and is prevelant in Jewish populations.

So, why hasn't the disease dissapeared, given that it is 100% fatal in children? If a person has only one of the genes, then he or she will not develop the diease, and has a chance of passing it on to the next generation.

JeffRob
It depends on how you declare a winner. Yes, you will likely have some rights for your "partners" in civil unions. (Although, if you try to extend this to everyone you've ever met in a bathroom, there may be resistance). But you will never be mainstream, or thought of as such. That's okay. You will always think Christians are a weirdo cult, and that doesn't bother me, either. I don't believe you are a threat to my happiness, so why do you think I'm a threat to yours?

the flash
There's a difference between worrying about future generations and worrying about the not-yet-born. Of course I want the world future generations inherit to be a clean, safe, happy one.

But like I said, the human race is having no problem maintaining itself. There is no shortage of babies (like in Children of Men, as you mentioned- great movie, btw). In fact, there are thousands and thousands of homeless, unwanted, malnourished children in this world.

So worrying about every single instance for the potential of new life seems silly and unnecessary. We CAN pro-create, a gift from God, surely, and a wonderful thing; but how does that mean we HAVE to pro-create to be productive citizns, or for our lives to be worthwile?

Ah, maybe that's it. If kids are not had, life is not productive at all? So a woman who decides not to have kids- although perfectly capable to do so- is automatically straying from God's will?

Such blind judgement will not much longer be accepted as normal. The Moral Majority- biggest misnomer in history- needs to leave everyone else the hell alone.

Celtic Dragon
I am truly sorry that you hear people calling you names. I personally find the Phelps "God hates fags," approach clownish and unhelpful. Come to think of it I hear people calling me names all the time because I am a Christian. It is silly isn't it?

You say, "Of course, I get to say whatever I like as well, whether you like it or not."

Believe it or not I have absolutely no problem with your saying whatever you want. I just don't want the state to attempt to force me to agree. And I want the same right to speak and vote my conscience that you want. I have no dispute with the rest of your statement.

That is a fact
Oh, well, if some guy calling himself Hal Donahue on the internet says so...

Celtic
I've already taken biology in high school and college. I understand recessive genes and dominant ones. Your explanation still doesn't explain why, over the years, evolution hasn't totally eliminated mental retardation, Tay-Sachs, or fill in the blank.

I understand older gazelles are easier prey for lions, but I think it's safe to say they would die at some point even in the complete absence of lions.

I agree with sloopy
Even being married does not solve inheritance and hospital rights. Today, thanks to HIPAA, a married person can prevent a spouse fom being included in decision making, or knowing the results of lab tests etc. Conversely, a homosexual can declare any unrelated person medical access by signing a standard form. Even "living wills" are now standard forms available at most hospitals and can be signed on admission and some are even sent to the home in advance of elective procedures for free.

All that homosexuals claim they are being denied because they don't have a marraige license are already available to them.

What if two heterosexual males, friends since childhood, want to share an apartment, but share separate bedrooms with their respective ladies, but only one has health insurance provided by his employer to spouses? If two homosexual males can get "married" then why can't any two individuals? What about a man and his step-daughter? What if she is only 12? Or a son and his father? Gays don't want "equal" treatment under the law, they want "special" treatment.

laughable argument
Methinks that mouthing the gay agenda is like a rat covered in garbage trying his best to convince his audience that he is, in fact, a beautiful peacock. It becomes laughable to give credence to their arguments. The gay lifestyle is degrading and sinful. And even the loudest of the gay movement knows this to be true. In Texas, they have just passed a death penalty law for repeat molesters. I say take this same justice to the man/boy crowd and let them experience the same penalty.

Vance
I agree, but I don't care if a child molester is heterosexual or homosexual, the death penalty would be just fine.

JeffRob:
You stated:
"There's a difference between worrying about future generations and worrying about the not-yet-born. Of course I want the world future generations inherit to be a clean, safe, happy one.

Aren't the not-yet-born and future generations the same thing, or at least the next generation and not yet born the same thing? You can't have future generations without the next one?

Later you state:
"...If kids are not had, life is not productive at all? So a woman who decides not to have kids- although perfectly capable to do so- is automatically straying from God's will?"

I prefer to leave God out of this, as it biases any logical argument. But if kids are not had, life is not REproductive. A single woman who decides not to have kids, although capable, is tolerable to the survival of the species, but WOMEN (a collective of many individuals) who do not on average have at least two children, destine the society of which they are a part of, to ultimate demise.





AzPhil writes:
"Your explanation still doesn't explain why, over the years, evolution hasn't totally eliminated mental retardation, Tay-Sachs, or fill in the blank."

The answer is evolution doesn't have to. Mental retardation is a one-time mutation. It could be due to a stray cosmic ray hitting a DNA strand on a single chromosome during early gestattion. (Why do you think we don't want to x-ray pregnant women or have them drink during pregnancy?) But that same couple could have several normal children before and after one born retarded. As for Tay-Sachs, which is a recessive gene, it doesn't often express itself until after the seed has been carried into the next generation, and so does not interefe with reproduction. Its like the gene that causes salmon to die immediately after mating. Evolution cares not about the longenvity of the individual, only the survival of the species.

Nice try
"The 'anti-Iraq war teach-in' idea is unrelated to the lawsuit."

Quite the contrary. The decision by the employer to permit certain disparate points of view while disallowing others is precisely on point.

"And as I said above, the statement 'I personally think the good book needs some updating' is certainly heading in the same direction of detrimental speech, but certainly didn't go as far as the GNEA post did."

Yes, it is in the "same direction". Your assertion that it "didn't go as far as the GNEA post did" is merely your opinion. It is also absurd.

"You disagree that forming an opposition group to preserve 'integrity in the workplace' is a statement of admonishment of them?"

It is characterization of them as an "opposition group" that is the problem. That they chose to create a group becasue they believed that certain viewpoints that they happened to share were not being given a forum (and thus, by creating such a forum, preserving the "intergity of the workplace") cannot rationally be construed as "admonishing" anyone ... unless furthering a specific agenda trumps reason.

"As Limbaugh out it, they 'formed the Good News Employee Association (GNEA) to challenge activities of a previously formed group of homosexual employees'. They then stated their disagreement with the previously formed group, and proceeded to encourage people to join them in preserving 'integrity in the workplace'. How is this not and attack on the integrity of the other employees?"

Again, insisting that disparate viewpoints be given an equal airing is not an attack upon ANYONE, unless (see above).

"Disagreement" is not the same thing as "attack". If it IS so construed, then comments such as "I personally think the good book needs some updating" doesn't simply "go in that direction"; it leaves the threshhold far behind. If it is NOT, as I contend, then, by definition, neither groups activities are inherently over the line (ill-argued agenda driven degree rationalizations notwithstanding) and must be permitted.

Workplace integrity is preserved by the allowing disparate viewpoints to receive an equal airing. You wish to argue that it is an absence of the pro-homosexual view that is being so described, but NOTHING in the content provided (either in the column or the article) presents any basis for that assertion of any kind.

sloopy
sloopy writes:
"My question for you is, why are you saying it is okay for only certain employees, with certain views to be censored, while other employees with other views are fostered? Don't you think that either they should ALL be allowed to use this city system to promote their organizations and viewpoints or, alternatively, none should be allowed to do so?"

Because, simply, some employee's certain views hinder the working environment whereas other's do not. Obviously, this is up to interpretation, but as you agree, it is necessary to make a distinction.

"I submit that the only reason you are okay with this is you agree with the viewpoint that is being fostered and disagree with the viewpoint that is being repressed. Would you be okay with this if the situation were reversed?"

JohnUnderhill writes: Tuesday, June, 12, 2007 10:46 AM
"This is obviously at the discretion of the employer, and should equally apply to, say, a "radical homosexual activist" telling a Christian that they're a bad employee because they believe everything in the Bible."

Anachronisms
CD

You say that I am "an irrelevant anachronism." That may or may not be true, but, on the other hand, if you are indeed a homosexual (sexually perverted, that is,) can definitely look forward to something that is only a potential for me, eternal damnation. Enjoy!

another_lesson_in_selective_tolerance
Every day, I see more and more issues with the laws that clearly show that we must start having real concern for our rights as normal people.
The bays are only approximately 10% of the total population of the U.S. Yet because of their nasty, sick sex habits, everyone is afraid of them. I don't understand why we must allow RIGHTS because these demented people who are clearly wrong, are demanding it. I don't really what they do with their bodies. But this doesn't require them to get some kind of garenteed rights. I am in a racial mixed (man and woman) relationship. I don't demand special rights because of it. The people of this country need to wake up and remember what is taught by GOD! And stop letting the few who make life hell for the majority. WHY is everyone is afraid to band together to stop it???

Gays do Reproduce
By molesting children and recruiting them then.

Almost was molested by a homosexual when I was 11 years old, but I had a Dad and older brother who had taught me how to fight. Didn't work out too well for the molester.

JeffRob
"...there are Pride parades in every major city in the world every year."

In Mecca, for example? Or don't you regard that as a major city?

Hockey Goon, loved the ending of the
tale of the too clumsy homo down the street-
I hope that your son was okay after that horrible proposition.

Gays need to stop trying to pretend that their "lifestyle" is normal. There is hardly any thought of monogamy in their relationships, they are far more promiscuous, have a greater amount of one night stand encounters, and have a huge problem with domestic violence(far greater than us "breeders").

You gays want us to leave you alone?
Then kindly return the favor.
Please.

Equality of Input = Equality of Output

David

From the Washington Post Editorial today

"Blood Brothers'

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/11/AR2007061102046.html

The editorial advocates that Gays can in effect minimally infiltrate the Blood Supply with HIV.

I wonder if the persons that get this HIV blood will offer up their suffering for the good of diversity and equality of output i.e. if we all have HIV we have equality of output and equality of input.


Gays
The gay mafia and the stupid liberals who listen to them are destroying our country. Our society is doomed. I feel so bad for my children. These phony liberals practice totalitarian tolerance. Only tolerant of views they agree with. They are the biggest hypocrites on the planet.

What is Normal?Equal?Fair?
Most of these posts go back and forth without any hope of either agreement or even understanding because both sides use the same words in their arguments, but each side has a different definition of the same word. So even if both sides said homosexuality is "normal" for example, we still wouldn't agree because the conservative definiton of "normal" and the liberal definition of "normal" do not describe the same condition. Neither is the term "equal" or "fair" used in the same manner or context.

In medicine, where "normal" is typically described as +/- 2SD (standard deviations)from the mean of a normal distribution. (Normal, as in Gaussian or bell-shaped distribution). Since everything quantifiable in nature is bell-shaped, (even seemingly random events, like coin-flips can be shown to be Gaussian in nature), then a value in the "normal" range will occur about 94.5% of the time. In other words, 1 in 20 who are "normal" will fall outside this range. Thus, one could conclude that someone who is "normal" is someone who hasn't had enough tests yet, because by random chance, one of every 20 measurments, whether it be blood-pressure, or cholesterol level, or hemoglobin, or insulin, or thyroid hormone, etc, will be outside the 95% range defined as normal. But, you need to have a large enough sample of "normal" individuals to determine the mean and SD.
To gays, normal is relative to other gays. If a room full of homosexual men who were raised to never have seen a heterosexual male ever enountered one, he would be seen to them as "abnormal". Yet, in the real world the minority is clearly homosexual dendencies.

Similarly, equal as in equal protection and rights under the law, means equal opportunity to conservatives, but equal outcomes to liberals. So even if we agreed both gays and straights should be treated equally, the two definitions are incompatible with each other.

Fair is even more poorly agreed upon between liberal and conservative camps. Fair as in taxes, would be that everyone pays an equal share, but is that in dollars, or percentage of income, or in percentage of wealth? A person who owns several large mansions and each is elaboratley hung with rare and expensive artwork some of which is "priceless" in value, may we extremely wealthy, but if they have no income, would pay little taxes. Is that "fair"? Should the higher wage earners pay a higher tax rate (progressive tax rate because "they can afford it?" Is that fair?

So it is with gay "rights". What exactly is a "right" under the law. Define that in a way both sides agree to, and then extend each side's logic and reaoning from that point, and the liberal side will lose every time because their premise that gay is "normal" is a faulty premise, and will inevitably lead to some absurd conclusion like "if gay is normal, then 2 must equal 1 sometimes."