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Friday, May 04, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Leftist Thought Control
by David Limbaugh
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The political left, which holds itself as progressive, rational and fact-based, is becoming an enemy of academic inquiry, and a practitioner of thought control on a wide variety of issues. Increasingly, from the left's perspective, there is just one acceptable viewpoint.

Consider the subjects of evolution, global warming, special rights for homosexuals and abstinence education. Consider efforts of the left to silence conservative talk radio. Consider the mainstream media's arrogant denial of its transparent liberal bias, pronouncing itself to be above politics and inherently objective and its critics somehow skewed.

Consider the leftist refrain that red-state conservatives do not merely possess a different worldview, but are not part of the "reality-based community." Consider the near monolithic liberalism and secularism of our university faculties.

The U.S. House is expected to pass a landmark federal law that would expand hate crimes legislation to include attacks against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens. Opponents argue that it's conceivable under the bill that if a rabbi, priest or pastor reads to his congregation a passage from the Bible condemning homosexuality, he could be considered an accomplice to any parishioner who later commits a "hate crime" against a homosexual.

Various activists are behind legislation that would prohibit public schools from continuing to teach Abstinence Until Marriage (AUM) in North Carolina and would force them to teach comprehensive sex education.

In my book "Persecution" I described the trials of a university professor who was disciplined for making available, but not mandating, materials in her class that deviated from the dogma of homosexual activists. One school administrator, in defending the school's chilling action said, "We cannot tolerate the intolerable."

Global warming alarmists tell us there is an overwhelming consensus on the issue and further debate is pointless. Yet there are a significant number of genuine dissenters in the relevant disciplines. Many more would doubtlessly emerge from the closet but for the potential financial consequences that might ensue. Plus, many of those counted as experts by the alarmists are scientists with no appreciable expertise in the field. Despite arguably insufficient data and questionable techniques to measure climate change historically, not to mention questions concerning the extent of man-made warming, the global warming zealots brook no dissent. They ridicule and castigate anyone, including those every bit as credentialed as they are, who refuses to imbibe their Kool-aid.

Their uncompromising certainty demonstrates staggering hubris, especially considering the track record of many scientists who have issued unequivocal conclusions, for example, in the health field, only to retract them a few short years later.

By pronouncing an end to debate -- just because they say so -- they betray the very principles they claim to uphold: an adherence to scientific inquiry and a commitment to facts and reason in favor of ideologically and politically driven conclusions.

Tom Bethell, in his "Politically Incorrect Guide to Science," quotes author Michael Crichton as saying that consensus science "is an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had."

We are witnessing a similar phenomenon on the subject of evolution versus intelligent design. Evolutionist Richard Dawkins, explains Bethel, believes that evolution is not a debatable topic. "I'm concerned about implying that there is some sort of scientific argument going on," said Dawkins. "There's not." Meanwhile the Intelligent Design movement is gathering courageous and impressive adherents who would debate the notion that no debate is going on.

But when these recalcitrant upstarts refuse to toe the line, they sometimes pay the price. Bethell tells of the publication by the peer-reviewed "Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington" of an article on the Cambrian Explosion by the Discovery Institute's Steven Meyer. Though Meyer relied on the work of respected scientists in the article, its subject matter did not sit well with the "consensus" gods. Richard Stenberg, the editor of the journal, was virtually accused of being a religious fundamentalist and a right-winger for publishing the piece. He was required to "surrender his office and keys to the department floor, denying him access to the specimen collections he needed." And, according to Bethel, "A senior Smithsonian scientist complained that publication of the article 'made us into the laughing stock of the world, even is this kind of rubbish sells well in backwoods USA.' Notice," wrote Bethel, "it was not the substantive claims about the Cambrian Explosion that caused such fury, it was their publication in a peer-reviewed journal."

If this trend continues, it's hard to imagine what we'll see in next decade. How the left can consider itself fair and open-minded in view of such developments is beyond comprehension.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Well said, David
It is a short step from silencing opposing views with a switch to silencing them with a bullet. Ask Hitler, Stalin, Peng, Pot, Amin, Amedinijad (sp), Hussien, Nero, various popes, and the list goes on. Dems better listen to themselves or each other, and the courts better listen to Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Jay and Madison!

Very well said
We're Europeanizing, sadly, and in Europe clergy, teachers, and others have been prosecuted for simply using officially disapproved speech about minorities or other "protected classes", which is exactly what this type of law creates.


Did Limbaugh really write this? ;-)
I'm usually very critical of Limbaugh, but I think he should be commended just a bit with his latest column. He could have given us overheated hysteria about hate crime legislation, but instead he chose to say the following:

"The U.S. House is expected to pass a landmark federal law that would expand hate crimes legislation to include attacks against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens. Opponents argue that it's conceivable under the bill that if a rabbi, priest or pastor reads to his congregation a passage from the Bible condemning homosexuality, he could be considered an accomplice to any parishioner who later commits a "hate crime" against a homosexual."

Why is this so praiseworthy? Because it's coming from Limbaugh!

1. He acknowledges that the proposed law would be an expansion of current hate crime statutes. Almost every one of his colleagues have chosen to pretend that the law is somehow unprecedented. (See Blunt's column from yesterday.)

2. "Opponents argue that it's conceivable..." How refreshing! Limbaugh knows that the bill specifically and plainly protects the freedoms of speech and religion and his column shows it. Limbaugh's saying that you have to twist and contort the law to get to the point of criminalizing speech and religious beliefs. "Conceivably" implies that it's a stretch. Bravo!




Hammer writes that it is ....
.... a short step from silencing opposing views with a switch to silencing them with a bullet. And that we should ask Hitler, Stalin, Peng, (sic) Pot, Amin, Amedinijad (sp), Hussien, (sic) Nero .... " etceteras.

And not to forget Human History's double Oscar winner for being both the most prolific-ever mass murderer and child rapist, the monster, Mao!v

But why go so far in either time or distance when we can find absolutely chilling examples of folks being brought back into line and/or slaughtered by going back in time and or looking no further afield than to Mrs Vicky Weaver and her little boy, Sammy, to Elian Gonzales and/or to the wife, children, family, friends, parishioners and students of the Reverend David Koresh! And to the many many scores of other victims of the feral gummint's Constitutionally proscribed and therefore illegal and unlawful "police" activities.

I have seen many articles and postings
that say this bill would criminalize speech. I have read the entire bill and I could not find this. The Supreme Court has already ruled that hate speech laws are unconstitutional (RAV decision). The have upheld hate crimes laws that involve violent crime. This bill specifically deals with violent crime only.

It does however expand the federal reach for hate crimes. It alledges that hate crimes effect interstate commerce. That is laughable. I am against this bill AND all of the previous bills, as well as the State laws. I am against ALL hate crime laws as they are blatantly unconstitutional.

And meanwhile "reason" suggests ....
.... that "the proposed law would (NOT) be .... (ABSOLUTELY) unprecedented ...."

Or some such convoluted rubbish.

As if a bill whose degenerate drafters say is intended to ".... "expand" (thought crimes) legislation to include attacks against (female deviates), (sodomites), (confused sodomites), (queers in dresses) and something he calls "citizens" -- and which creates and grants "rights" to never-before-heard-of classes of Americans -- is anything but unprecedented.

May this (in any case to be vetoed) attempted projection upon the population of their perverted psychopathology be sent back to the poofters who are attempting its promulgation!




Forgot link
I meant to include this link to the bill with the post above.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:2:./temp/~c110Ol2gng:e4139:

MSM Free Content
I talk a good deal about the MSM in my own column today (click above on name). The MSM would love to play a major role in influencing candidates seen as "acceptable."

Lorie and the Republicans
Lorie Byrd is very, very good indeed. She's providing some important: a view of the world that emerges from the Democrats' retreat strategy, and that's a very dangerous world. I hope everyone that has a blog will link Lorie's site, because she has a lot to say.

On my site today, I have what I hope is the best analysis you'll ever read of debate last night involving the 10 Republican candidates I tried to keep myself "MSM free" of presuppositions and write about the debate that actually occurred -- one that impressed the heck out of me. I write briefly about about ALL TEN of the candidates. I even responded to the challenge of some regular readers who chided me for advoiding Tom Tancredo, who said something profound near the end of the debate. Anyway, I hope to hear your views on what I wrote. Thanks -- steve


"Reality-based"?
As a general rule, the "progressives" I know (and I know quite a few, around here), believe in;

1. UFOs

2. Alien abductions

3. The Loch Ness Monster

4. Atlantis (the Ignatius Donnelly version)

5. Ghosts

6. Crystal therapy

7. Witchcraft and sorcery

8. That 9/11 was an "inside job"

9. That the CIA killed JFK, RFK, and Martin
Luther King

10. That Oswald was either (a) an innocent patsy or (b) working for the RNC

11. That we never went to the Moon

and

12. That Bill never did it with Monica.


These, I point out, are the beliefs of the typical "progressives" I know. Some of the beliefs of the more far-out ones I will not repeat on this board. (Hint; they generally involve everything being the fault of the Jews.)


And they call themselves "reality-based".


Right. And I'm Galileo.


cheers

eon

Leftist Thought Control
OK, we all agree, David has written an excellent piece (again!). But now I'm going to step away from the ranks of the cheering back-slappers and ask the kind of unhappy question only a conservative would ask: what exactly are we ACHIEVING? Two years ago I published an essay on this question at http://www.oz-aware.com/pointless.htm. Its essence is that we the decent have been huffing and puffing, for FIFTY YEARS, in dismay and chagrin at the immorality and relentless assault on our Western standards of decency by leftist/liberals.
Has that stopped them? Has that changed anything? Has it even slowen them down at all? Are we going to simply continue beating our breasts and wailing plaintively as we go down with the sinking ship of Western Civilisation? Recently 22 Jewish Rabbis were arrested for making the kind of stand that millions of decent people should be making – we should be marching in the streets and doing whatever it takes to turn this thing around. When is our version of the good people of Jerusalem who, in November last year, made very damn sure that aggressive homosexuals would not smear their ugly ideology across the face of that most holy of cities with their Gayofascist Pride ‘march’? Where are OUR courageous leaders?
Talk—and writing—is so cheap its costing us our civilisation!
If perchance anyone thinks this is a challenge, well it surely is!
PeterForde
Brisbane Australia

Correction
The address in my previous post won't work. The correct address is http://www.oz-aware.com/pointless.htm

PeterForde

eon
Thanks for the list. I also know many libs who believe everything, or most everything, on your list. However, it's still very eye-opening and a little shocking when you lay out all these beliefs at the same time.

Wingnut
There is real but fading scientific debate on global warming, it's true. But evolution? I'm sorry pal, that one's over. Species come and go in the fossil record. This is not a leftist conspiricy, it's literally written in stone.

Advice: if you want to be taken seriously, stick to issues where you have a case. Otherwise you're just another wingnut.

What evidence do you have that leftists are after talk radio? This: "Opponents argue" -- some wingnut said
"... that it's conceivable .." -- it's a stretch even for them
"... under the bill that if a rabbi, priest or pastor reads to his congregation a passage from the Bible condemning homosexuality, ... " -- spreading hate
".. he could be considered an accomplice to any parishioner who later commits a "hate crime" against a homosexual." -- inciting violence begets violence, as your wise fellow TH columnists point out in talking about Virginia Tech.

Hate crime legislation isn't enough!
We need to legislate Love! Clearly there just isn't enough love in the world -- this is not a victimless crime --- Congress needs to act on this now. For years now I, along with millions of other men, have been the victims of a anti-love crime spree carried out by Angelina Jolie. She must be made to show me the love or pay pay the price. No piece = no justice!

Peter
I totally agree with you. I believe there is a large conservative/traditional uprising simmering under the surface. However, I think it's going to take a significant event to open the flood gates.

We usually just grit our teeth in frustration and press on with our lives. Unlike many leftist, we have jobs, families, school, religion, etc....there is little time left for protests and activism (which most of the media would ignore anyway).

The secular-progressives in this country know they can’t discuss their end-state vision of our country or push for it all at once without losing most of the country, but they hope they can continue with their gradual erosion of traditional beliefs and eventually achieve their goals.

I don’t know what it will be...perhaps an extreme activist judicial ruling, but there will be a breaking point and the silent majority in this country will finally speak out (I hope).


liberalgoodman
Not so fast...

" ... If species have descended from other species by fine gradations, [why] do we not everywhere see transitional forms? ..."
Charles Darwin

Darwin predicted that, given time, the fossils of transitional species would be found. He was certain that future discoveries in the fossil record would conclusively prove that the human "animal," and all other animals, gradually arose from other species of animals. Darwin was wrong, and despite 100+ years of unrelenting effort the evidence has still not been found.

liberalgoodman states:
"But evolution? I'm sorry pal, that one's over. Species come and go in the fossil record. This is not a leftist conspiricy, it's literally written in stone. "

Curious lib, so when you die what happens to you?

Liberalgoodman: Really?
Scientific debate? How about Neo-marxist, anti-intellectualism embodied by the LEFT’s rapid subscription to one of the following un-scientific beliefs:
- Global warming caused by anthropomorphically-generated “greenhouse gases” while ignoring fluctuations “solar luminosity” (global warming on Mars & the reduction of its polar ice caps must be caused by evil republicans in SUVs)
- Global warming contributed to the creation of Hurricane Katrina
- Homosexuality has a genetic basis w/o scientific evidence (apparently Darwin was wrong)
- “Gender is a social construct” in direct contradiction of scientific evidence
- The “scientific method” is invalid because of its patriarchal nature
Etc.

Leftists after talk radio? Thought Police? Which ideology has firmly established “hate speech” codes on most university campuses IOT silence criticism of the mainstream neo-Marxist paradigm? Which party, now in control of Congress, is currently talking about the end of “Talk Radio” (and other alternatives to the Pro-Left MSM) via the imposition of the so-called “Fairness Doctrine?”

The “fairness doctrine” is just another method by which the left-wing MSM can return to its monopoly of news reporting & commentary. It is trying to marginalize alternative media, e.g., “talk radio”- a venue in which it is a abject failure. Those being said, look at the long term consequences, precedent being set & the ulterior motives of the left-wing MSM. Marxism as an economic model is an abject failure, but is an appalling success as a tool of social engineering. Left-wing philosophy: members of “victim” groups are automatically granted gravitas that should shield them from the insensitive comments of big, bad evil white men (member of “oppressor” group) like Don Imus. In contrast, The Duke 3, being members of the “oppressor” group aren’t entitled to any semblance of dignity- never mind that the Duke 3 had racist/sexist things said about them via the MSM for a FULL YEAR. The very same people who called for Imus’ head were making disparaging remarks about the Duke 3. In fact, Jesse Jackson has the temerity to offer their accuser, Crystal Gail Mangum, a college scholarship. Please note that the commentator & the MSM are silent on this issue. Few editorialists have the courage to even mention the name CRYSTAL GAIL MANGUM.

Impose the “Fairness Doctrine” & neo-Marxist tool of “race” as the key to destroying alternative media like talk radio. Imus was just an experiment, a “litmus test” WRT evaluating tactics.

Iceman: Two examples
There two examples of evolution that come to mind:
+ Bacterium & anti-biotics: new anti-biotics have to be produced because certain bacterium are developing a resistance (i.e., evolving) to current anti-biotics over several reproductive generations; and
+ The “Muchkin” cat: a spontaneous/random mutation produced a domestic cat w/ short legs like a dachshund. However, unlike most mutants, this animal can pass on this characteristic to its children.

Icedog
Your post at 0901 is right on the money.

Anyone with half a brain can see that the mainstream of America, conservative by nature, is getting sick and tired of activist judges, liberals backstabbing us, the freaks in Hollywierd and San Fruitcisco, and the excesses of the Dhimmicrat Party (Red Nanny's jet, William Jefferson of the Frozen Bribe, Surrendercrats Land Deal Ried and monkeyboy Murtha, etc)

We'll erupt soon and put things to right.

To eon
Belief in monsters and ghosts and UFOs...yes, that would be why a majority of college professors, teachers, and journalists vote Democrat and why liberal social attitudes correlate positively with level of formal education. I assume your "liberal" near neighbors live in the same trailer camp as you?

Meanwhile, just this morning, I wandered to a right-wing blog still complaining about the resolution of the Terri Schiavo matter, citing a similar but current case in which medicine says it's time to let the patient go, and suggesting that Spiritual Healing will surely awaken the brain-dead patient. Medicaid, of course, will foot the bill for the Spiritual Healing.

lilly
"Medicaid, of course, will foot the bill for the Spiritual Healing."

Why not? They pay for millions of lazy welfare recipients and their kids.

Marxist Pedigree
Once again the Left in America displays their penchant for Stalinist tactics. It's not surprising given their ideological pedigree that goes straight back to Marx.

RE: liberalLYINGman
"There is real but fading scientific debate on global warming, it's true."

Fading debate? I'm sorry you feel that repeating a lie somehow magically makes that lie true, but this statement is patently false. Every day, more and more evidence is brought forth totally debunking your ridiculous "we're going to fall into the sun unless we return to the 5th century!!!" notions. Consider, for example, this which was published just a few years ago:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070428170229.htm

which indicates that the climate has been seesawing for the past 9000 years, all without any human influence.

Every day more and more scientists are coming out and pointing to the ridiculousness of the "we're falling into the sun" notion that left wing fascists want everyone to believe in so they can use that as an excuse to steal more freedoms.

What there is a consensus visa vis "global warming" is:

1) CO2 is a greenhouse gas.
and 2) The Earth's climate has gotten warmer over the past 100 years.

To claim there is a "consensus" on anything else is a flat out LIE. Yes, LBM, you are, IN FACT, a liar (what a shocker there).

"But evolution? I'm sorry pal, that one's over. Species come and go in the fossil record. This is not a leftist conspiricy, it's literally written in stone."

So that species seem to spontaneously appear and disappear in the fossile record means that we all evolved from the same ectoplasmic goo? Are you THAT stupid? The spontaneous appearance and disappearance of species not only doesn't prove Darwinism, it DEBUNKS Darwinism.

Darwin's theory of evolution claims:

1) That life forms occasionally undergo small changes that, after millions of these changes, they become a new species.

and 2) That the small changes that make the life form stronger will survive, while changes that have no effect, or make the life form weaker will disappear.

The notion of spontaneous appearance of species -- such as what happened in the "Cambrian Explosion" -- is contradictory to the theory of evolution.

Heck, Darwin HIMSELF called his own theory into question, claiming it cannot explain more complex organs, such as the eye. The eye is made up of hundreds of individual components that, on their own, have absolutely NO function, and the notion that all these components could spontaneously and randomly appear all at the same time is beyond ridiculous -- and that isn't some right wing religious freak saying that...it's Darwin himself!

The "Cambrian Explosion" has been estimated to be as short as just a few million generations. In those few million generations, practically every type of life form had "evolved". Life went from simple sponges to complex vertebrates. And then, without warning, for no apparent reason, "evolution" appeared to slow down to near-motionlessness. New species appeared thereafter, but nothing close to what happened during the Cambrian period.

Darwin's theory does not say that evolution speeds up and slows down. Life forms are supposed to always be in a perpetual state of evolution, and this is directly contradicted by your precious fossile record.

What there is a virtual consensus on is that life forms can evolve within a certain range. Can finches in the Galapagos Islands grow longer or shorter beaks depending upon rainfall? Yes. Can moths in England grow darker or lighter (though no one is really sure why that happens)? Yes. Do humans grow taller or shorter depending upon how much protein they consume? Yes.

But to claim that a fruit fly could, after a few million generations of evolution, turn into a giraffe is NOT, in any way, anything remotely close to "proven". Evolutionary "biologists" have been poking and prodding fruit flies in lab conditions for hundreds of thousands of generations, and not only have they not produced a giraffe, they haven't even produced a mosquito. They just keep producing more fruit flies.

Advice: Try sticking to subjects that you actually have the slightest inkling of, and try to avoid those subjects that require you to flat out lie about.

Oh, sorry, if you followed that advice you'd never say anything.

Joisey
I charted their commie roots on my blog back in October. The USA will be better when they're dead and gone.

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/g/0217b1e0-a468-433d-9077-d1f5c8bf8474

RE: lilly
"Belief in monsters and ghosts and UFOs...yes, that would be why a majority of college professors, teachers, and journalists vote Democrat and why liberal social attitudes correlate positively with level of formal education."

Those that can do. Those that can't teach. The poster child for this indomitable law is Paul Krugman, communist scribbler for the New York Times and professor at Princeton. The last time Krugman accurately predicted what the state of the economy would be was when Nixon was president. Hence the reason he's confined himself to a tenured position on a university campus, and isn't on Wall Street raking in millions of dollars a year like his students who actually know what they're talking about are.

Demo
I have issues with stating that species slightly change over time (i.e. birds developing stronger beaks to open nuts and seeds), but that is a fry cry from one species turning into another species.

As Darwin admitted, he couldn't explain why we didn't see transitional forms everywhere...but he was positive that thousands or millions of examples would eventually be discovered....so far no luck.

Demo
Correction, that's "no" issues.

beowulfe
You're using facts and science to debate LBG’s rhetoric and fiction…..that's not fair.

I’m anticipating a scathing rebuttal from LBG involving some serious name-calling.


Gunny,
Keep up the good fight...I got your six!

close, lilly, but wrong again
Studies have shown that high school dropouts and PhDs tend to vote Democrat/liberal, whereas those with high school diplomas and B.S./M.S. degrees tend to vote Republican/conservative. (The figures are on the order of a 60-40 ratio). Are you able to deduce why this is so? If your claim is true that the more "educated" one is, the more he/she is liberal, then why are high school dropouts (and convicts) overwhelmingly Democrat? Could it be that your premise is wrong and that the real factor is real world experience? To wit:

High school dropouts, on the bottom rung of the economic ladder, unwilling and/or unable to work and take responsibility for themselves, know that the Democrats will get them free government goodies.

PhDs tend to be in academia, sheltered from the real world (this is why so many academicians are socialists).

The PRODUCERS of society, the people who WORK for a living, i.e. those who live in the real world, for the most part run the gamut from high school diplomas through master's degrees. (PhDs in general are not of much use in the private sector, or rather, they don't add any benefits at the margin).


Your worldview remains nutty and out of touch, as is usual for a lib.

Example
Mentioned it before but..

I wandered onto a "progressive" website, where the posters accused a young Marine of being an RNC operative because there was no way that a Marine in Iraq could find or comment in the manner he did on their site.

In case you don't believe me here it is:


""Garcia in Camp Pendelton, CA | Tuesday, May 01 at 12:35 PM”

For a soldier, you’re remarkably well versed in RNC talking points. It seems odd you’d say “Currently active duty in U.S. military” because that sounds rather detached. If you said what branch, for example, it might make you post look a little more credible. But I’m afraid I have to call the BS card and assume you to be a paid right-wing troll instead. It would explain how you were able to find this page so quickly and be the first to post.

roger in Oakland, CA | Tuesday, May 01 at 02:54 PM

buzzkat
In the security arena, I have talked with a few PhD's and they really ARE clueless about everyday things. In fact, in some of the classes and briefs I've done, with PhD's in the audience, they are the ones asking the most and the stupidest questions.

BTW, nice stomp on moonbat lilly. Kudos.

Icedog
Evolution is a FACT (as evidenced by the geologic record; over 4,000,000,000 years the Earth has changed drastically, so this is evolution by definition). The problem thus reduces to what is the mechanism for the evolution that has occurred. Darwinism as a theory of evolution may or may not be wrong, this is a question for science to continue to figure out. The problem is that religion (the Western deterministic version) has reared its ugly head into the field, with creationists basically invoking MAGIC and supernatural "explanations" for what can only be physical processes. One of the principal logical fallacies that creationists hang their hat on is that because science has not yet proven and demonstrated a physical mechanism (via mathematical and physics equations, for instance), that therefore the mechanism must be supernatural. This is no different from the caveman invoking gods to explain thunderstorms. It is truly a shame that this battle for rationality must still be fought in the 21st century.

Is there any such thing
Is there any such thing as a "Hate Crime"? A crime is a crime. If an act of violence is committed against someone, why should it matter what the motives were? The individual is still injured; the extent of the punishment should be determined by the amount of injury to the individual. The motives of the perpetrator should have absolutely no bearing on the sentence otherwise; we descend into the ranks of “Thought Police”.

I believe in ghosts
but I'm not a liberal. (Poltergeist are not ghosts; they are an energy field. We had them in one house where we lived. They came with us and some of us have experienced them in other locations.)

Currently here in Kanukistan the government is in convulsions and holding hearings in an attempt by the French to remove Shane Doan from the captaincy of Team Canada (currently playing somewhere in Europe for some reason) because somebody who was on the ice at a game in Montreal in 2005 said [bleep] Frenchman to a linesman or referree, and although Doan was cleared by the NHL who said "somebody said it but the person who said it was not Doan and in fact was probaby not a citizen of Canada" the entire government here is at a standstill while the French kick and scream like Filch in the Harry Potter movie: "I WANT TO SEE SOME PUNISHMENT!"

Liberals and the French are the reason the average IQ is so low.

Sam
You nailed it.

"Hate" crime is "thought" crime.

HR 1592 is a Hate Crime
Read what my congressman wrote to me when I expressed concern that he was backing this bill and even co-sponsered the bill.

"There is a fundamental difference between ordinary crime and hate crime. I believe that hate crimes are often perpetrated to send a message of threat and intimidation to a wider group."

So how would you define the purpose of this bill as anything other than a message of threat and intimidation to a wider group. Mainly Christians who oppose the homosexual agenda and its political activism. This has been going on since 1954 when then Senator Lyndon Johnson had a law passed, without debate or public scrutiny, that stripped the First Ammendment rights of free speech from churches and others or face IRS investigation and prosecution.

This clearly defies the First and Fourteenth Ammendments and should be declared un-Constitutional.

Evolution is not fact
There is absolutely no concrete evidence that changes within a species actually creates a new species. The fact that the world has changed, i.e., changes in temperature, changes in flaura and fauna, does not in any way substantiate macro-evolution.

Further, biogenetics has shown the infinite complexity of living organisms to the point where it is preposterous to attribute this complexity and function to random acts. The workings of a cell are so intricate as to be still not fully understood.

And, speaking of cells, if we are originally derived from primordial slime, where did those first cells come from? Are you suggesting that something as complex as a cell just appeared by itself and somehow accidentally split purely on its own?

Talk about magic!

buzzkat
states: "... One of the principal logical fallacies that creationists hang their hat on is that because science has not yet proven and demonstrated a physical mechanism (via mathematical and physics equations, for instance), that therefore the mechanism must be supernatural. ..."

This is typical of leftist thinking - that everything HAS to be explained by science. While I could argue a ton of scientific evidence that is pro-creation, I'll take a different step and say with science aside, belief in Intelligent Design can be without all your "proofs" and "equations" - It's called FAITH. If we had a scientific answer to everything regarding how we got here, then it would be KNOWLEDGE. God wanted us to choose, and choose Him.

No buzz, Evolutionism is a belief system
It is not a fact, even calling it a theory is an insult to science. At best it is a flawed hypothesis. I wish I had more time to spend on a reply, but my lunch hour is over. Let me just leave you with the following.

In order for a premise to be categorized as scientific, it must be falsifiable. Therefore, I ask you--what evidence is there that, if revealed, could prove to you that evolution is false? If your answer is that there is nothing that could change your mind about the veracity of evolution, then you have made my point and that evolutionism is, indeed, a belief and not science.

I have enjoyed your posts today.

Cheers.

Correction: Micro-evolution (not MACRO)
My bad.

Protection from "Stupid Crimes"
We have statutes to charge people under if their intent, as an organization, is to intimidate or restrict the free expression of others. It is called conspiracy. Again, if only an individual is involved it is a “normal” crime. If we pass hate crimes, I want to pass some envy crimes as well as stupid crimes. Let us face it, there are some “people” out there who are too stupid to live.

Excellent column
I live in a state targeted by enviros, and what they say goes. We are called every name in the book if we don't want wolves in our livestock or grizzly bears in our school yards. They scream and yell that the species of choice habitat is limited, what they do not mention is that the land they want to expand into is private property, and that they feel they are entitled to the use of it for "endangered species habitat", while the owner cannot use it or be compensated for it, in fact he may have to pay higher taxes to manage the species he didn't want.
Anyone who opposes them is greedy, selfish, and uncaring, plus stupid and an assortment of other names, none complimentary.

Fading global warming science....
beowulfe writes: Friday, May, 04, 2007 10:24 AM

RE: liberalLYINGman

"There is real but fading scientific debate on global warming, it's true."


I think what LiberalMan was trying to say was exactly that.... The science of global warming is fading to a point where the lie cannot be sustained by further lies.

LOL!

Just So You All Get the Full Story
I went to the website for the journal Limbaugh cites, and found this:

STATEMENT FROM THE COUNCIL OF THE BIOLOGICAL
SOCIETY OF WASHINGTON


The paper by Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," in vol. 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239 of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings because the subject matter represents such a significant departure from the nearly purely systematic content for which this journal has been known throughout its 122-year history. For the same reason, the journal will not publish a rebuttal to the thesis of the paper, the superiority of intelligent design (ID) over evolution as an explanation of the emergence of Cambrian body-plan diversity. The Council endorses a resolution on ID published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science (http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml), which observes that there is no credible scientific evidence supporting ID as a testable hypothesis to explain the origin of organic diversity. Accordingly, the Meyer paper does not meet the scientific standards of the Proceedings.


We have reviewed and revised editorial policies to ensure that the goals of the Society, as reflected in its journal, are clearly understood by all. Through a web presence (http://www.biolsocwash.org) and improvements in the journal, the Society hopes not only to continue but to increase its service to the world community of systematic biologists.

I know, I know, it's a conspiracy to silence Biblical truth. The earth is flat, too, and the sun orbits the earth on an invisible wire tied to the vault of heaven.

HBS
Change the words a bit and you have a true statement: "...there is no credible scientific evidence supporting" EVOLUTIONISM "as a testable hypothesis to explain the origin of organic diversity."

BTW, belief in a flat earth or the sun moving in a geocentric orbit are not supported by scripture.

Cheers.

Hate Crimes
Seem to me to be a variation on the Orwellian depiction of Thought Crime in that they purport to know what the criminal was thinking.

I find that very hard to accept.

For the sake of argument, let's say I am in a really bad mood (rarely) and carrying a sap (you never know) and a man pushes in line in front of me, knocking my little grandson to the ground.

I give the impudent slob a beating that he can write home about, but get arrested while doing so. And now, low and behold, we find out he is gay. Am I to be convicted of a hate crime because I was protecting my family and the instigator was a "protected class" citizen"?

Seems like a slippery slope to me....

BTW
When I was in the Army, I used to tell all of my new arrivals that I didn't care about their attitude, but I did care about their actions. I would take UCMJ action if their actions broke the law, but they were free to hate me as much as they wanted to, as long as they did their jobs.

misunderstanding what silencing is
There seems to be a confusion in Limbaugh's piece between ones right to speech and ones right to be taken seriously. Dawkins point is not that there are no people debating the truth of evolution, there are even in this thread. Nor is he arguing that people who advocate intelligent design should be silenced. He is making the claim that there are no arguments for intelligent design which stand up as good science. And charges by non-scientists that evolution should have copleted the fossil record by now do not count as good science.

Obviously the people who believe in Intelligent Design should continue trying to develop a scientific theory to go with it (but they really should be more upset when scientific creationists simply take their name and use it because it has more cache because that simply undercuts the idea that they care about the theory). But the idea that a theory whose support in the scientific community is less than that of Gravel in the Democratic primary should be taught in school is just silly. It is a good sign that science is not the motivation behind a theory when there is a desire to teach the theory before developing it.

HBS
AF Major: there's no scientific evidence that scripture is the word of God. I find it odd that people who claim to have faith are so concerned to make creationism (or whatever it is you're calling it these days) scientific. Sounds like a lack of faith to me.

Cheers.

Lon--good point
But the same could be same for evolutionism which is equally faith-based rather than science-based. I have yet to see any credible empirical evidence supporting evolutionism even after extensive reading of journals in the related fields. That is why I believe that either both POVs are taught in government schools or neither one is taught.

Cheers.

reply to Sam
Law isn't your strong point. Law is certainly concerned with intent; intent is a crucial and necessary concept in criminal law, and plays a role in civil law as well. Let me explain.



one of 5 principles of iability in criminal law Mens Rea

Intent is the mind being fully aware of the consequences. mens rea

both common law and Model Penal Code
Fundamentals of Criminal Law
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/293/293lect01.htm

reply to Sam
Sorry. I inadvertently submitted before ready. ("premature submission")


One of five principles of liability in criminal law is “mens rea” (Latin for “guilty mind”). The common law phrase for criminal liability is “actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea” or "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty". Intent is a complex concept, and this is just the bare beginning. Briefly, Intent is the mind being fully aware of the consequences of one’s action. In civil liability, intent can be relevant as well. So, if it is determined that I intended to commit a breach of contract, this fact may well increase the damages I would pay in a settlement.

Here is a good site to learn about this stuff.
Fundamental of Criminal Law

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/293/293lect01.htm

Go get 'em AF Major
Great posts today!

To build on the 60/40 voting thing regarding level of education: Professors are shielded from the real world AND congress is too.

Ted Kennedy could litteraly say ANYTHING and still be reelected. He could say he had lunch on Pluto whith the "Yes we are a planet" caucus and get reelected. Talk about shielded from the real world.
__

Evolution - mindless evolution decided to make limbs, appendeges, organs, lenses, brains, without any dna programming for them at all? There is a much better chance my laptop will sprout legs and run to the bathroom after reading a leftist post. Wake up people. Just because you learned about evolution since you were a child and believed your benevolent teachers would never intentionally steer you wrong, you bought the lie "hook, line, & sinker".

We are adults now and fairy tales like evolution were fun to think about but now we have to deal with reality.

Yes, I've noticed I have a bad attitude lately.

HBS
But there is archeological and historical evidence supporting events in the Bible and the existence of many of the principal people.

To believe in any God at all, it is reasonable that the creator would communicate in some way with the created. CONSENSUS worldwide is that there is a creator (95% believe in God). While that doesn't make it true, its at least as true as global warming.

yankette writes:
^^buzzkat
states: "... One of the principal logical fallacies that creationists hang their hat on is that because science has not yet proven and demonstrated a physical mechanism (via mathematical and physics equations, for instance), that therefore the mechanism must be supernatural. ..."

This is typical of leftist thinking - that everything HAS to be explained by science. While I could argue a ton of scientific evidence that is pro-creation, I'll take a different step and say with science aside, belief in Intelligent Design can be without all your "proofs" and "equations" - It's called FAITH. If we had a scientific answer to everything regarding how we got here, then it would be KNOWLEDGE. God wanted us to choose, and choose Him. ^^


Thanks for the laugh and proving my point about irrationality, as well as demonstrating a lay person's ignorance of science. Yeah right, you can "argue a ton of scientific evidence that is pro-creation"; this would be quite a feat for someone who doesn't even know what science is.

Lon
...says:

"It is a good sign that science is not the motivation behind a theory when there is a desire to teach the theory before developing it."

Almost. This should, first, apply to all teaching of theories, including catastrophic-anthropogenic global warming, and the element of evolutionary theory that says more complex organisms evolve randomly from less complex organisms.

But second, merely developing a theory is not enough to merit teaching it as fact. The theory must also be supported by replicable and predictive analysis of observations and causality.

I agree that Intelligent Design is not an empirically supportable scientific theory. I consider it a philosophical approach to cosmology, myself.

But evolutionary theory is uniformly taught as if it does have philosophical, cosmological explanatory value -- and that is an UNscientific premise. Even if randomness of macro-evolution from lower to higher forms of life were somehow proven -- a concept that is imaginable, but extremely unlikely, given the virtual impossibility of proving randomness beyond doubt -- it would still be unscientific to take that as "evidence" about the origin of the universe, or the existence of a creator, Prime Mover, etc.

There is a lot of anti-empirical nonsense out there, among evolution's opponents, about the earth being exactly 5280 years old, or whatever. Moreover, evolution's perspective on adaptation and evolution within species has been validate repeatedly.

But in the matter of the RANDOMNESS evolutionary theory attributes to macro-evolution, the theory is weak, and deserving of no special pleading. We don't have the tools to prove randomness (nor is evolution from less complex to more complex established by empirical observation anyway) -- maybe one day we will, but until then, those who are firmly convinced of undirected randomness in a process of macro-evolution are as faith-based as those whom they denigrate.

To: Lon
You're kidding, right? When you state that Richard Dawkins is not silencing debate?

Dawkins co-authored a piece in the British newspaper The Guardian in which he came out strongly in saying that intelligent design is not worthy of being taught. Among other things, he & his co-author opined that intelligent design might be taught in a class on "popular logical fallacies". They continued:

"But it no more belongs in a biology class than alchemy belongs in a chemistry class, phlogiston in a physics class or the stork theory in a sex education class. In those cases, the demand for equal time for "both theories" would be ludicrous. Similarly, in a class on 20th-century European history, who would demand equal time for the theory that the Holocaust never happened?"

Right. So putting ID in the same class as medieval ideas (alchemy); outdated proto-scientific ideas (phlogiston); the stork (fables); and revisionist history and calling it "a popular logical fallacy" do not amount to attempts to shut down debate by being utterly dismissive? This is not SILENCING by attempting to imply that ID is simply too silly to even be considered?

Right. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

AF Major
It seems you're not getting my point. I stated that evolution is a fact, in the dictionary sense of the term that evolution means CHANGE. Clearly the Earth and the lifeforms on its surface have changed over its history (90% of all species are extinct); even IDers admit this basic fact. My point is that there is no need to invoke magic and supernatural processes occurring outside of and interfering in this physical Universe to explain any phenomenon. More accurately, nothing has ever been proven yet to occur supernaturally. I'm not a biologist, so I will not presume to argue the science between both the creation of life on this planet (surely a common phenomenon throughout this Universe) and its subsequent evolution and development. As a physicist-astronomer-geologist type, however, I cannot accept a priori the notion that a force from beyond this physical Universe interferes in physical mechanisms. The laws of physics are immutable, set into place from Time=0, and absent any evidence to the contrary, the ONLY rational conclusion is that the Universe always follows these laws of physics and that everything occurring in this Universe can ultimately be explained by these laws. (Besides, if there really is a [Biblical] God playing dice with the Universe, doesn't that make existence ultimately hopeless, not to mention boring?). WHY the Universe is here and how it came into being has yet to be explained by science (and all bets are off), but once it's in existence, then by definition everything within it and all that occurs in it is physical in nature, there's nothing else. There really isn't even a Biblical objection to the creation of a Universe with built-in physical mechanisms for the development of life and its subsequent evolution to intelligence and beyond.

Fuzzy
^^To believe in any God at all, it is reasonable that the creator would communicate in some way with the created.^^


Fine. Explain and describe the interface between the natural and supernatural. After all, it has to exist if you are right. Somewhere, somehow this "God force" of yours has to be translated down to and from the subatomic level. Go ahead, you and all other IDers. We're waiting for your mathematical explanation.

Kathy
Interesting point about states. I'm having a lightbulb over my head moment here.

In a representative democracy shouldn't each state have exactly the same power in national elections, regardess of polulation? Each state should have equal representation. It's the state's vote that counts, not the population's.

Don't we already have laws requiring all states be subject to federal mandates because of equal protection?

Worth considering?

lilly redux
You might want to check out the book "Enemies Within" by Robert Goldberg. In it, he dissects several common "conspiracy theories", ranging from the JFK assassination to Roswell, and shows how they have cross-fertilized with each other, to an almost unbelievable level. Or you could just tune in the Art Bell radio program on any given night, and listen to either the interviewee or those who call in. They are all absolute "believers", and exactly none of them would ever vote for anyone to the right of Ned Lamont.

Or you could just Google these names;

Jim Marrs

David Ickes

Donald M. Ware

Budd Hopkins

David Hellyer (former Canadian Defense Minister)

Any or all of the above make the point succinctly. (Especially Marrs and Ickes.)

Oh, and PS;

12-room house, built in 1904. Wood-frame, 12 rooms, 2,100 sq. ft. on two floors, right in the middle of town on a major thoroughfare. Occupied by myself, my library (9,000+ volumes, about 50% nonfiction, most of the rest SF), my hobbies ( mainly building plastic models- IPMS), and my computer. $70 grand with a $20 grand mortgage.

Mobile homes and tornado country don't mix, IMHO.

cheers

eon

Buzz
Mathematical? You mean like the mathematical explanation for evolution? I don't think there is one. I know statistically, evolution (including formation of universe) is impossible.

Does that mean you should trash your beloved faith in evolution? No, I don't suppose you think so.

I do find sufficient arguments in favor of ID that stand up nicely compared side by side with evolution. I read more compelling arguments against the validity of evolution frequently. I want the same as others above - either teach them both in school or teach neither.




Oops
Scratch the second "12 rooms". Missed it on proofread.

Profound apologies.

cheers

eon

Buzz
Arrgh! I wrote a beautiful riposte (at least to me) to your previous two posts but it got sent To TownHall electronic limbo. Now I have neither the time nor patience to re-CREATE(pardon the pun) it. Oh well, it may be for the best as it was a bit lengthy.

In the interest of time, I'll address your last point in your 2:06 p.m. post. There is a huge Biblical objection to evolutionism (i.e. theistic evolution). It is simply this: Jesus treated Genesis as though it actually happened. While that may not settle the issue for you, it should be enough for the other Christians on this website.

Cheers.

Fuzzy
No sweat off my back if you don't really understand what science is. No argument in favor of ID has ever yet passed the SCIENTIFIC test. I have no problem with teaching ID in schools, but it needs to be taught as religion, not science, pure and simple.

So you KNOW that "statistically" evolution is impossible. You KNOW that "statistically" the formation of the universe is impossible. Wow. The rest of us have no choice but to be in awe of your unique insight.

Oh boy...
Someone posted that " "... under the bill that if a rabbi, priest or pastor reads to his congregation a passage from the Bible condemning homosexuality, ... " -- spreading hate
".. he could be considered an accomplice to any parishioner who later commits a "hate crime" against a homosexual." -- inciting violence"

You are saying that simply preaching against homosexuality is spreading hatred? That merely saying "homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God" (his protected beliefs) is "inciting violence"? I don't like homosexuality - there, I just committed "hate speech". How many of you now want to go beat up gays?

Then, the whole evolution vs creationism debate. You are all a bunch of dummies. Evolution is a THEORY. There are many facts supporting that THEORY, but it has not conclusively answered all of the questions raised by detractors. The fossil evidence simply hasn't been found yet. And for those nutjobs who think that "intelligent design" is in someway appropriate for a SCIENCE class, please go back to the 3rd grade and learn what science is. Intelligent design is the BELIEF that the universe, mankind, etc. was created in a certain manner. There is no scientific proof that it did occur in that manner. I have no problem teaching intelligent design in a social studies class, but don't mix it up with science.

The two issues are NOT mutually exclusive. The sooner the two camps get over themselves and allow that evolution doesn't account for all of the miraculous aspects of our world and that the bible sometimes speaks in parables (why six days, why could six days not equate to six millenium?) the sooner this stupid debate can end.

Oh, for you evolution/big bang people, can you scientifically prove that the universe could be created from nothing? I mean, at some point there was nothing, correct? Then the big bang created the universe. Where did the matter come from that makes up the universe if there was nothing to start with? What scientific experiment has clearly demonstrated that by starting with nothing (no molecules, no atoms, no nothing) that matter spontaneously appears? If you can't answer that, evolution is NOT anything more than a theory.

And for you religous whacko's, here's a question. If evolution is simply not possible, how do you explain the numerous examples of effective mutation to create something new? Is that simply part of God's plan? If so, isn't it just possible that God's plan was to create living beings that could adapt to their surroundings as time went by? And what theory do scientists use to explain that part of God's plan? That's right, evolution.

So let's all grab a cold cereal malt beverage, sit around the campfire and sing kum-by-ya (or however you spell that silly song).

Sorry Buzz
Forgot to touch on the "interface" thing. I believe the Bible is inspired directly by God. Sounds silly, right?

Apply statistics to the probability of the prophecies in the Bible to their fulfillment. You will be amazed.

Also, since the historical evidence supports Biblical events and characters, with multiple witnesses (read "observable data") - we know Christ performed miracles. He also confirmed the Old Testament scriptures.

You have faith in man's theory of evolution which no man has observed, but you don't have faith that the men writing the Bible, who personally observed biblical events, are telling the truth? Interesting. I would follow that to conclude that even if you find empiracle evidence in favor of evolution, people 200 years from now will think your theory was just a fable.

After all, the universe creating itself - that sounds like magical wishful thinking to me. Good luck proving that one.

AF Major
I have to run in a minute so I can't continue this. I just want to point out that certain Christians may interpret the Bible and whatever Jesus said in their own way, but it does not follow that Jesus or the Bible contradict the notion that God created the Universe to run and evolve in the way that science (and for that matter certain Eastern religions) are discovering it does.


It's been fun, a lively, courteous discussion with you, Fuzzy et al. Most amusing to me was being called a leftist (by an overly emotional Yankette) for arguing the scientific viewpoint, LOL! More than anyone, I want politics OUT of science, which is by the global warming gorebots irritate me so with their own version of religion! Have a good weekend, y'all!

Buzz
Or is it Mr. Scientist?

Which scientific principal are you using to explain the sudden existence of the universe? Before you say big bang, I mean fou you to explain where the material for the big bang came from as well as what outside force caused the big event.

Yes, I will believe you are invoking magic, but here's your big chance.

I don't have to be combative over an issue I'm comfortable with but I detect a "tone" to your posts on this issue that substantiate David's article.

cya Buzz
Enjoy creation & an adult beverage!

Beowulf/icedog
Great chuckles!

There's a great book in the 'Politically Incorrect' series dealing with Darwinism and Intellegent Design, one that libs will never touch. Why? It blows much of the basis for their secular religion sky high.

Paraphrasing the author Welles, he adds that since Darwinism became a political and cultural influence, the results have not been pretty. Now there's an underappreciated thought!

For a brief synopsis, try:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3733

Gestell
Good point on intent

Criminal law professor I once had used example that if Joe Smoe walked into a liquor store with a chrome plated water gun or his finger in his pocket and announced "this is a stick-up, give me your money!", Joe had justed committed armed robbery because his INTENT was to make the clerk believe there was a real gun.

And if Jim Clerk pulled out his gun from under the counter and terminated Joe Smoe, the DA would most likely find it justifiable homicide ( fear of one's life and all that.)

The professor was a practicing defense attorney in Dallas Texas.

ctjaeger
Don't know how to take the "whacko" thing. I have arrived at my conclusions after much research and deliberate thought and (I hope) some degree of logic. I was educated in government schools and evolutionism was preached and spoon-fed to me just like many folks on this site. As I became older and wiser and more educated, evolutionism just didn't pass the "smell" test anymore. Whereupon I investigated alternative theories. The more I investigated, the more ID (specifically the Genesis account of creation) seemed to explain my observations and the available data. Isn't this the way science is supposed to work?

As to "how do you explain the numerous examples of effective mutation to create something new?" To what are you referring? Give an example. The examples used in prior posts are inadequate to back your thesis. Bacteria mutating to become resistant to anti-bodies are still bacteria, they will not become men after billions of years. Cats mutating and passing on short-leg genes are just cats with short legs, they will never become something not cat-like. The genetic material simply isn't there.

Finally as to the six days of creation. The original Hebrew text was emphatic and it meant literally 6 24-hour days.

Cheers.

AF Major
Bravo!

It's always refreshing when people investigate things from all angles. I too am a 6 day man. After all, if God created Adam, he didn't create a defenseless baby unable to take care of himself - he created a fully formed man. In doing so, he didn't create seeds for trees that would one day in 10 years supply fruit for food for Adam - Adam had fully mature trees bearing fruit from day one. The trees needed insects for pollination - God didn't create an animal cell that would become a bee in a few billion years - he created a fully mature bee.

Its the same for the earth - God created it fully mature.

Read: Evolution of a Creationist for more thoughts on this.

Oh and
Humas were not asexual as they and all creatures would have had to be in order to reproduce. "Magically" both male and female species "evolved" simultaneously.

This is my own thought so I take the blame if Buzz shoots it down.

Fuzzy, also...
At the risk of digressing too far, let's not forget the incredible hydraulic forces due to the Noahic flood which also served to both "age" the earth and lay down most fossils found today.

AF Major
Major (get it) dittos, brother.

debate vs. scientific debate
There are many different kinds of debate, of which "scientific" is one. Dawkins is concerned about the perception that there is a scientific debate about intelligent design, and he's right. There are legitimate, unanswered questions about the evolution of life, but answering those questions with an appeal to the supernatural does not constitute a scientific debate. You can have a debate about God vs. no God, but it wouldn't be scientific.

AF Major
There are countless numbers of scientists who have arrived at your very conclusion, not through theology, but from the study of science itself. Scientific American documented such with an article and survey (sorry, no cite).

Recently, I spoke with a JPL scientist working on the Saturn probes and said the movement away from atheism within the JPL is pronounced.

Take away the diests, the faithful, the scientific, and conservatives in general and what remains are the narcissistic, leftist/liberals (and their yapping useful idiot sidekicks), who are the apex of creation and arrived there through an inevitable process - and only they know which direction is best for mankind to proceed in.

How's that for hubris? (PS thanks for the service).

AF Major
This business with the "incredible hydraulic forces from the flood" is just what I'm talking about. Is there evidence for that, or is it just an "alternative theory" that magically makes evolution go away? How does this theory deal with the fact that some fossils are older than others? How does it deal with the morphological progression that can be seen among fossils?

Malou
Yes, so far science (practicioners) have fallen short in explaining the origin of all things. Pretending that the universe created itself is a greater leaning to the supernatural than anything I can imagine.

Malou, you're right
I agree that any debate about evolutionism cannot, by its very nature, be scientific as evolutionism is not science at all. Thank you for making my point.

Cheers.

Comment
Both the Creation believers and the non believers rely on faith.

Eons ago there was a Big Bang out of nothing and matter came into being, formed into planets,and eventually live happened, according to the non-believers.

Let me see,
Let there be light,
there was a void ...and then there was the earth and the sky.......

Lighten up and look at your own beliefs before you attack Jews and Christians. OK?

conman
How does one arrive at a metaphysical conclusion by empirical means? How does that work?

Creationism vs Evolution.....
Creationism = "Poof, we're here."

Evolution = "Poof, we'll be here when we get here".

You can beleive either one, I dont care. Just dont try and shove "intelligent design" down my throat. "Feel good" terms add nothing to the debate. Climate change is NOT "global warming". And how can both sides of a debate be pro-anything? You cant have one group be pro-choice and the other be pro-life. Its pro-choice and anti-choice, or pro-life or anti-life (pro-death?).

Can you be pro-life and pro death penalty? Can you be pro-life and against stem cell research?
Can a creationist evolve to something more? Is an evolutionist creative?

Why don't you lighten up, Packrat
And look at your own assumptions before you decide you know what people believe when they stop being religious fanatics.

Coming out of nowhere
First, the article's premise in the title is correct. The left is doing that. However, the religious right does the same thing. And as Buzz says, if you argue Science you are a leftist. That personal name calling is not debate. Look at some examples here in these comments. Fuzzy is in essense saying, this is God's word, so believe it. There is no room for debate. You want me to apply statistics? It's your arguement you apply them. Give me 3 examples of prophecies coming true in the Bible. Start there. If the Bible is so literal why are there thousands of religions? Why are there two stories of creation? Why is it ok for the men who followed Jesus and performed miricles in his name to doubt the resurection but if I do it, I am a godless leftist that you hate? It has been asked how did the Universe just start. Great question, some say it just was. That was called magic and illogical. However, if I say, where did God come from the answer is the same, but somehow logical.

Here is my prophecy, no one will answer these questions but will instead lash out at me with name calling meant to belittle me.

Yes Mal, there is evidence for the flood
There is a fairly uniform layer of earth that covers the globe, below which are a myriad of fossils the predominantly do not exist above the same layer. Perhaps this layer of earth was deposited by a global flood.

Please don't tell me you are not aware of this. It is taught in every geology class on earth.





Malou
This business with the "incredible hydraulic forces from the flood" is just what I'm talking about. Is there evidence for that...?"

Yes. Billions of fossils buried in rock layers all over the earth.

How does a fossil form? The organism must be buried in sediment immediately after death or shortly thereafter. Else it would be eaten or it would rot and no fossil would exist. What better explains all the fossils than a cataclysmic world-wide flood?

As to the different ages of fossils, carbon-dating is well known to be flawed. That leaves us with us with one method which is circular and goes something like this:

The paleontologist asks the geologist, "How old is the rock layer in which I found this fossil?" To which the geologist turns to another paleontologist and asks, "How old is this fossil so I can date this rock layer?"

Simplified? Yes, but no less accurate for its simplicity.

Cheers.

And I am still not a leftist
Why is it OK to call out the obviously hypocritical left wing yet let the right wing slide?

For example, Rush Limbaugh and Bruce Tinsley ridicule drug users and claim the left do not take responsibility for their actions but they do the same thing.

You know, if some of the so-called Christens would actually follow the teachings of Jesus I might actually think there was something to it. But here they have a book that has all these great things to say like love your enemy, and turn the other cheek, give to the needy and all they can talk about is abortion and gay marriage. Well they are sins but consider this:

From Matthew 7
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.


Kevin
I doubt anyone will lash out at you and I don't expect a single person to just accept creation because, as you state it is "God's word, so believe it".

I am fascinated by your reference to what Carl Sagan once said about how the universe "just started". To some, like yourself, if makes more sense that the universe is eternal rather than God. To me, it doesn't. In identifying a beginning of all things, I ask what was here before the big bang? Your position is, what came before God? I really, honestly, don't follow the logic of that. At some point in history I believe there was nothing. Nothing does not become something. A force outside of the "nothing" is responsible.




Kevin, good questions
I have to leave soon so I'll cherry-pick the easiest question (without name-calling you should note).

You ask, "Why are there two stories of creation?"

I'm assuming you mean two Biblical stories of creation, right? I, too, had that preached to me during my public school indoctrination to evolutionism. The answer is simple, the Bible does not containg two versions of creation.

Genesis chapter one tells of creation in its entirety (all six days) in a kind of grandiose, majestic tone. Chapter Two then tells us that God rested on the seventh day. It then goes on and gives us further details about the sixth day. It is not a different version of creation despite what you may have been taught.

Go ahead and read it. Two seconds on Google and I got this online version of the Bible:

http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvGene.html

Cheers (and respect).

Kevin
Please. Bible quotes about being judged?

You are judged by God. He gave us a top 10 commandments list. One of which is "anti- abortion" If a person breaks the commandments, God judges them. Christians are only reminding you of that out of love for you bro.

Who here knows what kind of man you are really, or what kind of man you will become. We're all in the same boat going for the same ride together. We only toss libs over the side if we start sinking.

Kevin, please stop!
I told you I have to go and then you go and make more very good points to which I feel I must make some reply.

First, I cannot condone what Rush did neither can I judge him since I have never been subjected to the kind of chronic pain he apparently went through. (Thank you Matthew 7!) I don't know who Bruce T. is so cannot comment.

Matthew 7 is a wonderful passage which was meant to undercut the Pharisees and hypocrites of Jesus' day (as well as today). Note that Jesus did not say that we are never to judge, but rather that if we do, be prepared to be put under the microscope yourself. Indeed, in 1st Corinthians, Paul says, "A spiritual man judges all things."

So back to your example, if Rush admonished prescription drug abusers while he was guilty of the same act, and while pretending he wasn't, I'd say he was guilty of hypocrisy. Same thing if I was in a secret homosexual relationship while crying out,"Sinner!" to a same-sex marriage advocate. Or if I just paid for a mistress to have an abortion while claiming to be pro-life and excoriating "pro-choicers" for their stand. Do you see my point?

That is not to preclude me from pointing out wrong acts in an attempt to help even if I were guilty of same. If I were abusing drugs and noticed my brother was starting to do the same, shouldn't I point out to him the dangers and wrongness and perhaps offer to get clean and sober together?

So, yes, positive things such as giving to charity and loving your enemy are very important. But so is standing up for what is right (life, sanctity of marriage, etc.) as long as it's done in love.

Cheers.

Malou
What do you call it when someone beleives that an event occured but has no proof or personal experience. Belief ? Faith?

I said look at your ( the plural you) own beliefs (views) before you attack others. I did not presume to know your beliefs or views , unlike you thinkin you know my views or beliefs.

Malou
"How does one arrive at a metaphysical conclusion by empirical means? How does that work?"

Gee, did I say that (how impressive of me)?

Perhaps you can explain it now that you've devined I said it.

Homosexual Protected Class Bill HR 1592

.....If you want to see which Republicans voted for Special Homosexual Rights and which Democrats voted against Protected Class Status check the below list ...is your Congressman here? .....COLOSSUS

25 Republicans-in-Name-Only (RINOs) joined the Democrat majority and voted to pass this constitutionally questionable so-called hate crimes legislation.
See How Your House Member Voted Here

The 25 Republicans who voted in favor of H.R. 1592 and decided the support of the radical left-wing was more important than the support of patriotic Americans:

Biggert, Bono, Castle, Dent, Diaz-Balart, L., Diaz-Balart, M., English (PA), Ferguson, Frelinghuysen, Gerlach, Gilchrest, Kirk, Kuhl (NY), LaHood, LoBiondo, McCrery, Platts, Porter, Pryce (OH), Reichert, Ros-Lehtinen, Saxton Shays, Walden (OR), Walsh (NY)

The 14 Democrats who bravely voted against H.R. 1592:

Berry, Boren, Carney, Cramer, Davis (Lincoln) Donnelly, Ellsworth, Gordon, McIntyre, Melancon, Taylor, Shuler, Ross, Peterson (MN)

2 Stories
You are being much more level headed than most and I commend you. I have no desire to convert anyone to anything. I agree with the statement that for many Atheists, that is their religion. I just ask that you keep it out of the Government.

So let's dig in.
First, on the eternal thing, something has been eternal, the matter or God.

Fuzzy said
At some point in history I believe there was nothing. Nothing does not become something. A force outside of the "nothing" is responsible

Well, if there was a force outside of the nothing, that is something and your first statement contradicts. That does not follow. We came from something, I don't know what it is but using contradictory statements like that does not clear it up for me.

Second, the two stories of creation. You have a nice neat interpretation there, I like it. But that is a man's (person's in case the PC police is around) interpretation. I thought we were talking "word of God" here. I don't deny there is a God. I don't deny that God talks to people. I just see a lot of people that claim God is talking through them and these groups seem to contradict each other with alarming frequency. that is what I don't believe. Every society that has exsisted has had a religion or explantion to explain it all. It's human nature. Science as well falls into this category, man looking for an explanation. But we are finite and we are dealing with infinite, we cannot comprehend it.

Third, I thought I called out the rhetorical retorts to my statements beforehand but I wasn't explicit with this one.

"Please. Bible quotes about being judged?"

Somehow, if a person uses a Bible passage against a Christian in a debate, it doesn't count. The condescending "please," what in world is wrong with using that? It doesn't fit your style so you ignore it? Denial is not just a river in Egypt. It says don't judge. It says love your enemy. It says turn the other cheek. And these are from the main guy, Jesus, not some messenger Paul. Like I said, if I saw some people following these statements, I would be more inclined to believe. "Christians are only reminding you of that out of love for you bro." Calling it love does not make it so.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

I see bad fruit and thus I do not follow false prophets. I am only judging that action, for my own sake.

Thought Control
The left knows their opinions are correct on any issue you care to name. Therefore, debate is not only unnecessary but dangerous since the un-thinking masses may be persuaded by evil thoughts. Also, the left is tolerant of any viewpoint that agrees with their own.

Kevin
Consider all you just said.

Something outside of nothing is something. Complete agreement. What do you think that something is?

Re: Judgment and the Bible - Using Bible quotes is perfectly ok. Not taking them a step farther to expand on their meaning by taking whole passages and corresponding passages is a mistake.

Think of it as looking at a fossil and noticing it is different from another fossil but yet it has many similarities, then taking your find to mean that one gave rise to the other. That is not a scientific conclusion. It is a guess. You need more information to know what occurred.

I assure you that it is out of love that I bring it up. We will never meet. I gain nothing by judging you.

I completely agree that different denominations of Christianity send out differing views. I believe that is why a fundamental approach to the Bible is the only way to be confident of your study.

Sorry if the "please" offended you. It is just that people making statements like you did from the Bible are easily recognized by believers as coming from someone who has not taken an in-depth study of it. I think you are on the right track in being discerning.

Its time for you to come home to the God who made us. He'll explain everything in time and he will provide all the evidence you need.

Until then, science will not have come one inch closer to figuring out how he created everything.

You are a reasonable man. I hope you find the answers you seek.

Thanks David
One again, I have to commend David Limbaugh for showing us the way. And just a night after the Republican debate when a third of the participants had the courage to say they did not believe in evolution. From listening to most of the responses, I could tell that evolution, if it exists, has not worked on all the hominid species, thereby disproving this canard once and for all.

I only wish the moderators had followed up and exploded some of these other crazy "junk science" theories as well. Take the theory of relativity, for example. Who can believe it when you can't even understand it? Besides, it has been shown that this theory is just "Jewish science" and therefore not worthy of serious attention. Philipp Lenard exploded Einstein's fakery with his "Aryan Physik" movement back in the 1930s but today's liberals won't pay attention, just like they won't pay attention to all the reputable scientists who have disproven global warming. Typical moonbats.

And what about that nutty "theory of gravity?" Or probability theory? Or genetic theory? Where are these in the Bible anyway? Liberals expect us to swallow this pap with no Biblical proof whatsoever.

And they won't even allow alternative theories to be taught in our schools. Take this theory that conception results from sexual activity, for example. Will they even allow the existence of a competing theory that babies come from storks? As one loyal American, I am refusing to support any medical school that does not at least teach the "stork theory" in its obstetrics department.

Ken
Brilliant debate

a Kingdom not of this world
True believers live as exiles in a nation that has forgotton God. This nation was only great to the extent that it respected God's laws and defended those who worshipped in spirit and truth. Now, as it seeks to establish laws in direct confrontation to His revealed Word and Law, Christians are placed in an awkward situation. To obey the Secular State or to obey Christ our True God.
America has crossed the line into apostacy and error.
It is a Christian's duty to resist Ceasar and to serve God.
This means persecution is our lot.
Yet I believe that to do right is worth the price.
If our corrupt politicians seek to force men and women to dishonour God, then it is our duty to ignore such laws and to proclaim Jesus Christ as the Son of God. The arrogance and moral blindness of our Congressmen and women is apalling.
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