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Friday, April 20, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Ginsburg Worldview
by David Limbaugh
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Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's dissenting opinion in Gonzales v. Carhart illustrates the moral depths and quagmires of irrationality to which the political and cultural left in this country have descended.

In Carhart, the United States Supreme Court upheld the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003, a limited congressional ban on partial-birth abortion that was shot down by lower federal courts.

What stands out in Ginsburg's opinion is not her condemnatory legal critique of the majority opinion, but her philosophical/political assertions. While she pays lip service to the supposedly conflicting interests of the government in "safeguarding a woman's health" versus "preserving and promoting fetal life," it is clear that neither of those hold a candle to her interest in promoting "a woman's autonomy to determine her life's course, and thus to enjoy equal citizenship stature."

Much of Ginsburg's opinion reads like a feminist manifesto straight from the National Organization for Women. One gets the sense that she believes what is really at stake in the abortion debate is not the vindication of "some generalized notion of privacy." No, this is purely and simply a power struggle on behalf of women pursuing their presumably unrealized quest for complete equality.

Ginsburg and those of like mind obviously regard any restrictions on abortion as threatening to women. Such restrictions, in their view, proceed from a regressive mindset "when women were 'regarded as the center of home and family life, with attendant special responsibilities that precluded full and independent legal status under the Constitution.'"

That mindset is "'no longer consistent with our understanding of the family, the individual, or the Constitution.' Women, it is now acknowledged, have the talent, capacity and right to participate equally in the economic and social life of the Nation.'" In other words, a woman's right to kill a baby in her womb is essential to her being a complete woman, or, to paraphrase Ginsburg, it is central to her life.

Apparently, women's progress in this struggle is so fragile that an open acknowledgment of the unborn's humanity must not even be permitted because it might somehow reverse their gains. No, we can't allow little details like the life of the unborn to encroach on "the destiny of the woman [to] be shaped on her own conception of her spiritual imperatives and her place in society."

So extreme and inflexible is the Ginsburg position on a woman's right to control her own destiny that she writes, "the notion that the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act furthers any legitimate governmental interest is, quite simply, irrational."

Oh? So it is irrational to contend that the government has a legitimate interest in protecting the life of an unborn human being? Talk about the language (and logic) being turned inside out!

Nevertheless, under the Ginsburg worldview, the right to life of the unborn appears completely subordinated to the interest of women in having complete autonomy over their "reproductive decisions."

One has to scratch one's head to think of any other liberty that is so absolute that it permits no restrictions. We don't think that way regarding other liberties.

For example, would anyone seriously argue that my right to swing my fist entitles me to commit battery on another person? Does our right to sexual liberty entitle us to rape? Why do the radical pro-abortionists regard any restriction on abortion, which doesn't just harm another person, but kills him or her, an impermissible encroachment on a woman's liberty?

The only way it is logically possible to couch the abortion debate in terms of a woman's right to her own autonomy is if we accept the premise that the second party in the equation, the unborn, is not a party at all, but a meaningless mass of tissue bereft of human dignity. Sadly for the pro-aborts, it is increasingly clear from any perspective we choose to examine it: scientific, spiritual or otherwise, that the unborn is a human life. If the pro-aborts were not aware of the humanness of the unborn, they wouldn't grudgingly pretend to strive to make abortion "safe, legal and rare." There is no moral imperative to protect a human-less mass of tissue.

If anyone believes I am overstating Ginsburg's extremism, just remember the context. She writes in defense of that most abominable of procedures, "partial-birth abortion."

Can you conceivably wrap your arms around the perverted concept that a woman can't be a real woman unless she has the complete autonomy to direct a doctor to partially deliver her baby for the purpose of killing it? My purpose isn't to offend here, but, truly, I just don't get it.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Playing Softball
The only reason Ruth Bader Ginsburg is on the Supreme Court is because republicans played softball when Clinton made this nomination. They behaved as statesmen fully understanding that the same statesmanlike treatment had not been afforded Robert Bork or Clarence Thomas. As a former attorney for the ACLU it was more than a little apparent what this woman's politics were and that she would not be able to separate her politics from her decisions. Regardless, because she was a well-respected and able attorney no republican stood in her way and she was confirmed almost unanimously. Republicans agreed that Clinton had the right to appoint people who shared his philosophy and the Senate's role in advice and consent excluded the application of a litmus test that would have immediately disqualified this applicant in the same manner as democrats disqualified Robert Bork and that some democrats like Schumer wanted to disqualify both Sam Alito and John Roberts. Until democrats behave responsibly in the approval of presidential appointments republicans must prove to them that what goes around comes around. I dream of the time when republicans will learn to play hardball.

Ruth
The tragedy of Ginsburg's worldview is that adopting in, in toto, would culminate in a victory of Islamofascism. I wonder if Ruth considers the burka an expression of female autonomy.

But the error of Roe cuts both ways. There doesn't exist a Constitutional right or prohibition against abortion. That is why the act against partial birth abortion is perfectly legal. If one accepts the right of the U.S. Congress to pass on the issue, that is (i.e., vs police power doctrine).

I do.

purpose isn't to offend
"illustrates the moral depths and quagmires of irrationality to which the political and cultural left in this country have descended."

I assume that when you accuse someone of having descended to quagmires of irrationality of moral depths, you think those being so accused will not find this offensive?

See, that's what is wrong with right wing media.

Denis Prager accuses the left of being wrong on almost every great moral issue and then has the audacity to say he is fair to the left and not, err, offensive.

Right.

Communication is a dead word in this country and should be removed from the dictionary.

Right wing media will never be main stream media precisely because even in its attempts to appear even remotely non-offensive, it is extremely offensive.

Abortion is not one of those issues where people can be easily swayed. Being offensive about it insures no one will ever pay attention.

The right wing has yet to convince main stream Americans that abortion is murder precisely because they are so rude, in your face, baby killer screaming, and obnoxious.

I just Don't Get It
David says it best:

"Can you conceivably wrap your arms around the perverted concept that a woman can't be a real woman unless she has the complete autonomy to direct a doctor to partially deliver her baby for the purpose of killing it? My purpose isn't to offend here, but, truly, I just don't get it."

Why do feminists insist on 'Equality" as there goal? What's the next next step, mandatory prosthetic Pen1ses? Surprise! They are already superior to men, in that they bear life. Now they fight for the right to destroy it, in any way possible. They wield more power than they know what to do with and they still continue to cry foul when they lose the choice of committing the most heinous act of all.

I will never be able to understand the lib/dem mind that insist it is ok to kill an unborn or partially born child, but it's not ok to kill a criminal.

But I will Always defend their right to think that way.

Too bad they won't think the same of me…

drivebyposting
You write: "The right wing has yet to convince main stream Americans that abortion is murder precisely because they are so rude, in your face, baby killer screaming, and obnoxious."

I'm not sure your assessment is completely accurate.

According to a 2006 Zogby Poll 59% of Americans believe that abortion ends a human life, only 29% disagree.

http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=12916


Nor is the left-wing always so polite, conciliatory, respectful and soft-spoken.

http://www.zombietime.com/walk_for_life/

Roe v Wade is bad
law and should be overturned. Abortion should be returned to the States where it was originally.

Partial Birth Abortion
Anyone performing anything remotely similar to PBA on, say, a dog, would be hauled off to jail and roundly denounced in the papers and on TV. Yet, at least until now, it wasn't considered murder to partially deliver a baby and "vacuum out the fetus' brain to collapse the skull", as my local paper defined the "procedure". How anyone could defend this barbaric process is beyond me.

Ruling exposes real lib agenda
Even the majority opinion in Roe vs. Wade did not protect a women's so-called right to an abortion in the last trimester.

The idea that partial birth abortion is part of a woman's right to privacy is just a skirt the libs hide behind to cover their absolutist attitude about free sex.

I can think of little that is more infantile and selfish than killing a child as it is being born because mom can't be bothered with the inconvenience of raising it.

And with all of the myriad of other birth control options that are available, including options that prevent pregnancy from occuring in the first place, PBA is all the more inexcusable.

Abortion compared to murder
Once again we have the totally predictable and equally foolish lib argument that abortion is not murder, this time coming from drivebyposting.

Well driveby, the fact is that NO STATE EVER SAID ABORTION WAS MURDER. If the states thought abortion was murder they wouldn't have had two separate laws; one dealing with murder and the other dealing with abortion.

Even in the days prior to Roe vs. Wade no state ever prosecuted abortion the way they prosecuted murder.

The idea that a state must prove a fetus is a human life is a complete construct of convenience for morally (and physically) lazy libs who want to have free sex and no responsibility for the consequences.

And your argument that the majority has never agreed that abortion is murder is total BS. If the majority agreed with you most legislatures would have repealed their anti-abortion laws. You and your ilk are in the minority, which is why you rely on activist judges to legislate from the bench for what you want and continue to conduct a tyranny of the minority.

Finally, the level and quantity of rudeness by the right would barely register on the kind of scale that would have to be used to measure the rudeness and outright hate emanating from the left.

Conservative Ron writes that ...
.... (Mrs) Ginsburg is on (the court) because "Republicans" played softball when (the then wife of the occupant of the suite traditionally reserved for America's president forwarded her nomination).

Give him only half of the brass ring.

For Conservative Ron hasn't yet caught on that there are no more Republican congress critters and/or senators.

As in Shakespeare's Globe when men played all of the roles, including those of the women so, these days, "Democrats" having so debased, debauched and degenerated the feral gummint's role in all our lives, do the organized criminal thugs who pose as "Democrats" also play all of the (emasculated, feminized and sodomist-ized) "Republican" parts!

On Rights
The left demands the sacrament of abortion. There can be no power above the desire of the individual and that power must be worshipped in the form of the ability of the mother to kill her child. The right says that a higher power exists and that power says it is morally wrong to take that life. The left cannot allow that power to exist if they are to shape our world to their desires.

From a legal stand point Ginsburg in effect argues that society has not the right to decide to whom it extends constitutional protection. For a justice of the Supreme Court to say that to me is an outrage.


Fox News Questions
Hi: I’m doing a piece (or two) on Fox News. I am very much a conservative, but I have problems with the network. Yes, there are some things on it that are very good (Ollie’s war stories, Edie, Liz Trotta, Britt Hume, Sean). However, I’m not against “fair and balanced,” but I am against fair and boring. The graphics are too 1970s and some of the personalities (Shep Smith, Allen Colmes, and even Bill O’Reilly) are getting tedious. They badly need some tough-minded, smart types like Kyra Phillips (CNN) and Chris Jansing (MSNBC). The morning show is unwatchable. The business show on the weekend strikes me as a bunch of overpaid Wall Street types shouting at each other. The multiple layers of lip glop on female news readers isn’t really that appealing. Maybe it’s just me, but I’d love to get some other opinions from conservatives. You can put a comment on my blog (click on name above) or send me an e-mail at: TalkTop65@aol.com. I’d really appreciate finding out if I’m alone – or if some of you have some of the same problems. Thanks for your input..

Steve Maloney
Ambridge, Pa

B & W Brian
Years back you actually had a mix of liberals and conservatives within the Democratic party. That mix is gone and now the mix is within the Republican party with the emphasis on liberal. We in effect have two socialist parties, one hardcore and one lite. How is this situation rectified?

Yes the Republicans played softball with
the Dems after being "Borked".

On the Alito hearing 10 (R) For 8 (D) against.

On the Roberts hearing 13 For with 3 Dems 5 against all Dems.

I want the Republicans to remember that if we have the misfortune to get a Dem in 08 I think two of the liberal judges will retire. I want ALL of the Repubs to automatically vote against a Dem nominee as they do.

The hearings are useless. Everyone on the committee new how they were going to vote before the hearing started. The hearings have beome nothing more than a soap box for bloviatng.

Adolph Must Be Smiling
When mothers and potential mothers believe killing their babies is all right civilization is at an end. It's ironic that in a time when more birth control devices than ever before are available females still insist on the right to kill their unborn babies.The Nazis' murderous regime started with abortions of the unwanted and the rest of world was horrified. Adolph Hitler must be smiling somewhere, knowing that he was way ahead of his time.

Liberal Worldview
As someone once said, "Conservatives think that people are the solution to the world's problems; liberals think that people are the problem."

Because liberals want to micromanage people's lives, the fewer people there are, the easier it is to control them. Therefore, abortion is the solution to the liberal problem.

judicial activism
It is true, as Limbaugh says, besides addressing the conflicting issues of health and life, Ginsberg is also concerned with women's equality. Such personal agendas display judicial activism.

But so does Stevens' opinion exhibit judicial activism. After acknowledging the health and life issue, he brushes it aside because opinion on the matter is undecided, and bases his decision on his own personal disgust and incredulity. But this seems to be Limbaugh's position as well, so the activism is overlooked.

David, it's hard to "get"
I don't get it either. We don't get it because we have at least a trace of moral fiber in our being.

Bill Clinton's shirt tail didn't hit his rear end, after his inaugeration, before he appointed her to the Court. In my frustration, I think this was his soul purpose for being (sorry, a bit of cynicism here). And how did this evil woman get such an easy pass in the Senate? I will never get it.

"ONE World Government?" Never!
Daniel 2 The image of the statue had toes of the feet which were part iron and part clay;shall Not cleave together..the Most High God will set up a kingdom,never destroyed, which shall break toes(our times) in pieces by a stone (smiting them )which became a great mountain filling the whole earth.God's kingdom shall stand forever.The dream is certain and interpretation sure.. Rev.11:15 (The stone and mountain) the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord [(Jesus) and His Christ (us)] and He shall reign forever.

Limbaugh's Position
No, David Limbaugh's position is not based on personal disgust as to the barbarity of partial birth abortion, although he and indeed all of us should have that disgust. David Limbaugh's (and my) constitutional position is that abortion is not a legal riught protected by the due process clauses of the U.S. Constitution, that Roe v. Wade was wrong in the first place in recognizing such a right and that it has become worse as Roe v. Wade, based on a 1960's and 1970's notion of personal privacy, has morphed into an absolute right to abortion on demand, based on radical feminist ideology of woman's autonomy. That anyone should think that the barbarity of partial birth abortion is and/or should be constitutionally protected shows the utter insanity afflicting the subject.

Wiseone
Very wise comments. What is it called, projection?

Insult or vilify someone, then when they protest or respond-even mildly-accuse them of hatred.

Anti-women

What's never mentioned in Limbaugh's piece is that this legislation bans the procedure *without* health exemptions. When women's health can be ignored and set aside it's hard to see how Ginsburg doesn't have a point about women's equality.

Then one reads the comments. "emasculated, feminized"..to be womanly is to be a bad thing for some folks. "who want to have free sex and no responsibility for the consequences" ie pregnancy should be a form of punishment for wayward women. What defenders of women you guys must be.

Rush
You need only to listen to what Rush Limbaugh said about N.O.W. to understand Ginsberg's words. N.O.W. is a left wing POLITICAL organization developed to promote ideas of the radical left, cloaked in a banner of equal rights for women. Ginsberg and the ACLU were on board.
Did you hear any outrage from them against Clinton. I can't think of anyone who degraded women more than Billy, but the left approved of his agenda, so he gets a pass. Proves Rush's point.. Ginsberg proves it once again in her most recent dissent.

Weird Logic
While I don't agree I can understand the logic used to justify a termination shortly after conception. What I can't get my mind around is the idea that a viable fetus can still be legally murdered.

Can someone explain the logic of that to me.

servetus - know your facts
Have you actually looked at even a summary of the legislation that was ruled on by the court? The legislation points out the fact that there are other procedures that can be used and there is no medical necessity for the procedure. The reality is that there is no medical situation today that requires the use of this PBA procedure. It's a false premise to argue that about this case. Something you would know if you actually read some of the legislative and legal documents and analysis in this case.

never legislated!
Until this issue is sent back to the states to be correctly legislated at the state level, it is not going to go away. What I don't get is why the Left is so afraid of state legislation? They would probablly get their way in any state they care about (California, New York, Mass.)and problally not in any state the could care less about (Wyoming, Utah).


cgsbil
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists would disagree with your assessment.

Simple Solution
The Morning after pill, and sex education that fully details STDs and makes birth control available. Make pregnancies far less numerous, and abortion almost disappears.

But no, the righties are hell-bent on inserting the government they so disdain into the American bedroom . Except Newt Gingirich's. And Ted Haggard's. And Rudy Giulianni's. And the red states where divorce is higher than in Massachussetts. And...

I find it amusing that righties expect teenagers, the founts of wisdom and sagacity, to say no to the rushing train of hormones that teenagers get from time without end at the age they do. Talk about living in the mental Dark Ages!

Thankfully those kind of people are a minority in the political arena!

Twisted World View
I agree completely with wiseone. Abortion is a way for irresponsible people to deal with the results of irresponsible behavior and libs are foaming at the mouth to maintain their "right" to be irresponsible. If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex. (They say "but I should be able to have sex when ever I want and suffer no consequences for it because it is my right". My answer, "No, sex outside of marriage is wrong; read the Bible". Also, there is no constitutional guarantee to having sex. They say, "But that is so old fashioned and outdated". My answer, "Sin is sin and wrong is always wrong". I doubt very seriously that God thought something was wrong two thousand years ago, then decided "No, I was mistaken. That is ok now". Here is the deal Ms. Ginsburg; If you want complete autonomy for your body, don't do things that involves other people. If you want to have sex, get all the protection you can. However, even that is no guarantee against the possibility of pregnancy. Those are the consequences of your actions. There is NOTHING that is consequence free and you can't legislate or judicate consequences away! If you get pregnant, there are things that can be legally done during the first trimester. If you wait until the last three months to do something about it, you have shown even more irresponsibility. There are lots of people out there waiting to adopt because they are unable to conceive. PBA is absolute murder and should be illegal. The argument that it should be legal if the mother's life is in danger is also garbage. Again, there are other ways to save the mother's life without performing the PBA "procedure".
Roe v. Wade was bad constitutional interpretation. The logic in the ruling is completely convoluted and erroneous. There are circumstances where abortion should be legal, but a guarantee during ANY time of the pregnancy is completely immoral. That is a life, given by God, that you are aborting. The fact that you can kill an unborn child, but not a convicted murderer shows the total lack of logic involved.

Time to retire
We should have a mandatory retirement age for Supremes and all Federal judges. Ginsburg has obviously lost her mind and can't be trusted to protect the Constitution. I could say the same about the other liberals on the court, but Ginsburg's rulings and opinions are particularly disturbing.

I'm hoping that something (anything) happens before Bush leaves office to require that a minimum of two of the liberal judges have to step down and be replaced.

The brilliance of the Founders becomes more evident as time passes. As iron-clad as the language of the Constitution is, only a majority liberal/socialist Supreme Court can get around it.

Kelo and McCain-Feingold would not be law if the court had a conservative majority. The Constitution is our last line of defense. God help us if more liberal judges get on that bench.


For "wiseone" ...
Whether someone names the killing of the most innocent among us murder or not means little except in the grand scheme of the liberal mind. I shall never understand how my country could give the absolute right to murder/kill a defenseless human to one segment of our population based solely on gender and a perceived "need." There is something gravely wrong with an ideology that would produce such thinking.

Judgment
Which nation will be more harshly judged? Will it be Germany for allowing Hitler to destroy six million Jews and three million Christians or America that allows multiple times that number of its children to be slaughtered through abortion? Murder is not a moral or Constitutional right for anyone. Unless this pagan sacrifice ceases, the American dream will die in the ashheaps of history with all other destroyed pagan "civilizations". Neither the federal government nor the state government has the right to destroy innocent life. Asking God to bless a nation that allows this is sacrilege. We can only beg for His mercy.

Limbaugh right on all accounts
Abortions can be medically indicated and should be used if necessary.

An abortion should not be the preferred or optional method of birth control. A woman's right to her body ends when she elects to get pregnant, whether by design or neglect.

Gonzo
The only good thing to come from abortions is that liberal women use them far more often than right-wing women.

A few more decades and libstains will just be a bad memory. Or maybe, we'll keep a few on display at zoos.

I vote for RBG
as the most despicable decision Prez Clinton made when he nominated her.

She is his legacy. We all now pay the price.

PBA
The rub is those few inches of movement. Should the "mother" or doctor kill the baby after it has passed out of the canal, they'd be guilty of murder.
Or should the baby be extracted via incision with the intent of saving it's life it's protected under our laws. I dont understand how a "mother" can just decide because she doesnt want the baby, it is suddenly a choice.
If I, the father, were to presume to make that choice I also would be guilty of homicide.
Examine the facts how you will- there is no logic in this. Which is why it must ultimately fail or we as a country will fail. We cannot continue to fail to protect those most in need and most deserving.

a twisted IDEOLOGICAL view
What makes partial-birth abortion less necessary and tenable is advances in medical technology, NOT the inconsistent conservative ideology that dominates this issue.

Let's see, no woman is supposed to have an abortion for ANY reason -- danger to the mother's life or health, conception due to rape or incest, high probability of severe birth defects, or the mental, emotional and/or financial incapability of the mother to raise the child.

Then after the child's birth, we are supposed to oppose paying any taxes or otherwise support any social programs that may actually give the child a decent chance of being a productive member of society. Sorry, unless the mother and child are white, philosophically conservative, and at least moderately wealthy, they are on their own.

All this anti-abortion business is simply about political and social control. Political control by the Republican party and social control by their radical special interest groups. Again, MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY is at the point where late-term abortion practices can and should be phased out. However, spare me the lectures on the "humanity" of the unborn until these "pro-life" groups acknowledge that one's "humanity" does not cease after he or she is born.

GoodonPaper
You have a valid point. But, we may differ in the solution. Conservatives tend to believe that social aid is best supplied by charities, churches and quite frankly, us directly. That way, the money actually gets to the people that we are all wanting to help, instead of funding a huge bureaucracy and some fat cats that feed at the public trough.

On principle, we may differ too. Conservatives believe it is not the right of government to steal from one individual by threat of force, to give to another. What is not alright for one individual to do to another, is also not alright for government to do. This principle goes way back in our history. Read what Davy Crockett said when he served in the legislature. It's entitled, "Not Yours to Give".
http://www.house.gov/paul/nytg.htm

know your Milton, know your Bible
Limbaugh writes: " Can you conceivably wrap your arms around the perverted concept that a woman can't be a real woman unless she has the complete autonomy to direct a doctor to partially deliver her baby for the purpose of killing it? My purpose isn't to offend here, but, truly, I just don't get it."

It isn't hard to "get it." Ginsberg's position is not new. In "Paradise Lost," when he is cast into hell, Satan famously says, "Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven." To translate that poetic line into Ginsberg-thought: "Women must have absolute autonomy over their lives, even if it means doing unspeakable evil such as poking forceps into an innocent baby's head and sucking out the brain." Ginsberg is simply elevating "women's autonomy" above right and wrong.

Hubris has always been the root of human evil. As the snake said to Eve, "Eat it. You can be gods..." Claiming "autonomy" in any absolute sense is simply a claim to godhood. Taking the power of life and death over innocent babies is just one classic horrid example of what happens when humans listen to the old serpent and claim to be God.

Gunny...
I never thought of it that way. Perhaps I'll just shut up on the subject and let nature take it's course....

Goodonpaper
You write: "Let's see, no woman is supposed to have an abortion for ANY reason -- danger to the mother's life or health, conception due to rape or incest, high probability of severe birth defects, or the mental, emotional and/or financial incapability of the mother to raise the child."

If the unborn is a human life no justification for abortion is adequate any more than it would be acceptable to us that a mother would kill her two-year-old because her health (usually this is a catch-all including mental and emotional health), the fact that the child was conceived due to rape or incest (while tragic and horrible not an sufficient reason to kill the toddler), the fact that the child has a 'severe birth defect,'or the mental, emotional or financial capability of the mother to raise the tot. The only exception in either case would be the life of the mother which should always be a sober and agonizing decision. If however you can show us that the unborn is not a human life this debate will be over. No justification for abortion is necessary we will all shut up and go home. So the question you need to focus on answering is "what is the unborn?"

You also write:"...spare me the lectures on the "humanity" of the unborn until these "pro-life" groups acknowledge that one's "humanity" does not cease after he or she is born."
As Liberty pointed out conservative and liberal solutions to poverty differ, but to say because they differ conservatives have no right to oppose killing the unborn is like saying that abolutionists had no right to "lecture on the humanity" of slaves unless they were willing to hire ex-slaves.

Again, answer the question "what is the unborn," and the debate will be over.

GunnyG and Marine dad
Great way to look at it.
But we have to be sure then that Algore's plan (to take kids for mandatory government preschool at age 3) doesn't happen.
The left has noticed this little social anomally too and are working very hard to get their hands on all of OUR childrens minds. I see these new moves by the left for more and more earlier government education as just this--they have killed their offspring and now they want mine.

I agree
"If the pro-aborts were not aware of the humanness of the unborn, they wouldn't grudgingly pretend to strive to make abortion "safe, legal and rare.""

I completely agree! And how are more people not realizing this?! Why would they bother calling it a "last resort" if they believe its a perfectly safe medical procedure? Such hypocrisy. Maybe abortion advocates, especially women who have had abortions, can't admit to the truth b'c then they'd have to admit that they've killed their child.

I also don't understand how if a child is killed partially within the womb, its okay, but if the child were to be fully removed, its murder. What's the difference? Does it become a human once it fully passes through the birth canal? Why the double standard? It reminds me of "Connor's Law". You know, when Scott Peterson murdered his wife, Lacy and their son Connor, who was still in her womb. If Scott can be charged with TWO counts of 1st-degree murder, why are mothers and doctors who kill the unborn not treated in the same way? Its absurd!

If people like RBG would look into the issue for one second in the child's perspective, they'd have to be anti-abortion. But she won't let herself do that, so she hides behind "women's rights" and "choice".

Elizabethbennet
Right on--
Also I love how goodonpaper lumps birth-defects in there. Didn't Hitler do the same? First abortion--then killing the "defect" children and adults, then on to Jews being "defective" and on until europe was covered in blood. I find the parallels very frightening when libs really get going on these debates. I would be intersted to find out where they draw the line between a "severe" birth-defect and a mild birth-defect?

What About the Constitution?
Notice that Ginsberg concludes that the notion that "the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act furthers any legitimate governmental interest is, quite simply, irrational." She makes no mention of the constitution. Again, she shows that our judges think it is their job to decide what is right and wrong, not what is legal or illegal. It is for the people to decide what is right and wrong, and it is for the court to uphold the people's will. The people have a contract that expresses their ultimate will, and that contract is the constitution. The Supreme Court members think somehow that they are a perpetual constitutional convention. But until Congress or the President is willing to reign in their seemingly unlimited powers, we are stuck with these 9 robed pontiffs.

Elizabethbennet
Right on--
Also I love how goodonpaper lumps birth-defects in there. Didn't Hitler do the same? First abortion--then killing the "defect" children and adults, then on to Jews being "defective" and on until europe was covered in blood. I find the parallels very frightening when libs really get going on these debates. I would be intersted to find out where they draw the line between a "severe" birth-defect and a mild birth-defect?

beyond the pale
While I don't want to distract from my earlier question that I believe the pro-abortion advocates must answer before any other. "What is the unborn?" I would like to also challenge them to defend their "every child a wanted child" slogan by asking, "has child abuse and neglect decreased or increased since the 1973 Roe decision which devalued human life?" There have been nearly 40 million unwanted children aborted, are there now less unwanted children?

All women deserve equal rights!
Unlike Ginsberg, I believe all women deserve equal rights. Even unborn women.

Being Female?
In China they have a mandatory "one child" policy. I believe just being female is considered a severe enough birth defect to justify aborting.

RE: ElizabethBennet
I might be wrong, but I think abortion is illegal in China. The girls don't get aborted. What generally happens is that get dropped off on some well traveled street, then when they are found, they are brought to an orphanage.

China
Personal choice for abortion is illegal in China--Unless you are working certain government jobs--in which the state cannot have you pregnant. Then the Government will force an abortion (read it: come to your home, take you by force,if needed, to a facilaty, drug you and induce the abortion). Then it is entirly legal.

beowulfe
I do not like to contradict, but not only is abortion legal it is often forced and is always pressured by severe fines if the couple already have one child. Just search 'abortion in China.'

RE: beyond the pale
I believe you are also mistaken. It is NOT "illegal" to have more than one child in China. However, a tax is imposed on those who do exceed the government mandated family size.

elizabeth...
I don't know that the left has ever answered that question to my knowledge. Christians argued that for years, and I think we thought we had prevailed when science advanced and we could see life moving in the womb. Then you had all the sugery advancements for the unborn. Younger and younger premies serviving outside the womb. Now we have the 3-d scaning. I think what it comes down too is they can't argue when life begins. They lost that battle years ago. That is why they moved on to life doesn't start until the mother says it starts. Whether outside the womb or not. Which leads back too--where do we draw the line. If I can kill my child before it takes it's first breath, then why can't I kill it when it throws its first tantrum and becomes inconvenient at age 1, or even more so at age 15? If I as a mother am arbitor of when life begins, when does my "choice" have an end.

RE: ElizabethBennet
I don't get my information from kooky web sites in this particular case. I get it straight from the horses mouth. Rather, I get it from those who grew up in China. Many of my closest friends are immigrants from China, and this is actually one topic that we've, in the past, discussed.

While there may have, at some time, been cases of the government forcing aborions on women, I can tell you straight up that that is not the policy. Rather, as I said, they just levy a tax on those whose family is larger than the government mandates. Often, this is avoided simply by distributing children to other relatives that aren't currently taking care of their own children. I have one friend who was raised by his aunt for this very reason.

But we all believe the same, deep down
One of the most ironic of the many ironic pillars of liberal thought is the belief that if we all just sat down and talked with our enemies, we'd realize that deep down we all want the same thing. If we were just willing to make a few meaningless compromises, we could stop wasting our money on aircraft carriers and armored vehicles and start spending our defense budget on s'mores and Coca-Cola while we sing Kumbaya 'round the campfire. Now let's transfer that same ideology over to the abortion debate, where Justice Ginsberg and her ilk sputter and shriek about women needing an absolute right to destroy the children they conceive at any time, lest government restrictions interfere with their absoulte right to a career, their absolute right to have sex, or their absolute right to pursue any other aspect of their "conception of (their) spiritual imperatives and (their) place in society." Why can’t we all just sit down around the campfire and compromise over this issue: I’ll agree that they don’t have to have children if they don’t want to, and they’ll agree not to kill children they don’t want. Sexual abstinence – or voluntarily sterilization – seems to me to be the compromise position here. Or am I missing something about liberal logic?

beowulfe
I do not believe I said that it is illegal to have more than one child in China. What I am saying is that there is severe economic pressure to do so.

From: The US Department of state. "The evidence drawn from these follow-on steps clearly showed us that the large fees and penalties for out-of-plan births assessed in implementing China’s regulations are tantamount to coercion that leads to abortion."
http://www.state.gov/g/prm/rls/39823.htm

beowulf
I didn't say it was illegal to have more than 1 child.
I personally now a woman who immigrated from China 4 years ago who had an abortion done in China. She was a high level manager at a government facilitty. They cam to her home--after she began to show her prgnancy--told her she should have an abortion (she had no children at this time) she refused, citing that she didn't yet have children, to which they replied that they couldn't afford to have her leave her position. She was taken (by force) one morning after eating breakfast to the clinic and the abortion was performed.

Sex-selective abortion in China
From the Wastington Post (hardly a bastion of conservative pro-life thought)
"In China's Countryside, 'It's a Boy!' Too Often"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A77925-

RE: ElizabethBennet, beyond the pale
Elizabeth, first your assertion that there was a 'have a mandatory "one child" policy' in common English vernacular implies that there is some law requiring only one child. As I have stated, and the US State Departments seems to agree with, is that the only "laws" include taxes that are levied. That is all I said, nothing more.

That these taxes can lead to abortions doesn't mean those abortions are legal. Ever hear the term "back alley abortions"?

Finally, like I said, that one can perhaps find examples of forced abortions does not mean that is the general policy. To say so would be like saying that it is US government policy to execute a man's family for failing to pay $5 in taxes just because that did happen to Randy Weaver in Ruby Ridge, Idaho once.

Let me repeat: All I am saying is that 1) I'm pretty certain that abortions, in general, are illegal in China, and 2) families can, and DO, have more than one child. They just are levied higher taxes for doing so. All I meant to do is correct a misstatement, and that is it.

beowulf
I completely believe what you are saying about your friends who came from China. I believe the reason there are so many different stories coming from China is bacuase of communism. When communism reigns all rules are subject to the head of power in the district where you are. What the national laws might be are irrelevant when placed into the hands of people who are of the mind that they know what is best for you and the "community" where you are.
And to come back to America--quite frankly RBG and her kind are trying to move us to just that. The communist way of thought. Ultimate control resting in the hands of a gigantic government--rights of a people are forfeit according to the whim of whomever is above you on the totem pole. Scary, scary thought.

More evidence
From another liberal organization, Amnesty International: "China: Protester against forced abortion sent to prison camp"

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA170522004

My original point in bringing up China is that being female is considered a justifiable reason to abort because males are considered more valuable. This was in response to goodonpaper's implication that birth defects are a reasonable motive to abort. The question was raised 'what is a birth defect.' I believe I have adequately defended my position that in China being female is considered an adequate reason to abort. China does have and enforce a one-child policy no matter how they legally cloak it.

Now I need to go bath my very human little one-year-old.


"Legitimate government interests"
Excellent point, Mark McLemore:

"Notice that Ginsberg concludes that the notion that 'the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act furthers any legitimate governmental interest is, quite simply, irrational.'"

Notice the WORDS Ginsburg uses, which unarguably imply that the Supreme Court gets to decide what constitutes "legitimate government interest," and whether laws enacted by the people's representatives rationally further it.

This is not judicial review, it is policy-making. It is long past time for Congress to use its power -- from Article III Section 2 of the Constitution -- to limit the judiciary's authority to rule on this issue. Congress actually uses this power regularly, on issues of lesser import (many of them involving interstate commerce).

The Founders never intended judicial review to mean that the judicial branch was superior to the people's representatives, in terms of deciding what should and should not be subject to law. Nor is there any compelling philosophical basis for assuming that as a going-in position. But every American under the age of about 60 has been taught in school that Marbury v. Madison established pretty much exactly that: that "judicial review" sets limits for what the Constitution is ELIGIBLE to mean, independently of the will or intentions of the people.

We are a dangerously miseducated nation in this regard. We shouldn't have to amend the Constitution as the only way to get around policy-making by the judiciary.

Congress and the executive branch need to recognize that they have the combined authority to put the judges back in their place: Congress, by explicitly limiting judicial authority, and the president, by refraining from giving improper judicial activism the force of law through the actions of federal agencies.

The care of Congress and the president in this regard should be to restore the federalism written into the Constitution with the 9th and 10th amendments. In the context of relinquishing the "unenumerated" powers reserved to the states, respectively, and to the people, reining in the judiciary at the federal level would set the precedent to do the same in the states.

dyerje
I agree
Another piece of education we should be teaching--is that the supreme court was not always so large. Wasn't FDR who expanded the court, in order to produce just what we have today-- legislation from the bench becuase he couldn't get what he wanted from the congress and senate?

beowulfe
Before I go: I concede that mandatory is a strong word and I am willing to admit that it may imply a law. However I still maintain that a one-child policy is applied through severe economic penalties.

Your original reply to my commment was:
"I might be wrong, but I think abortion is illegal in China. The girls don't get aborted. What generally happens is that get dropped off on some well traveled street, then when they are found, they are brought to an orphanage."

I took this to mean that you do not believe abortions happen in China because they are 'illegal.' However it does nothing to take away from my point that sex-selection is practiced in China and I believe I have shown that abortions definately take place.

Agreed and agreed
It certainly is the case that communist-like governments are, by their very nature, very opressive. I am not shocked one bit that one can find all kinds of nasty stories out of China.

But there is signs of hope in China. As they grow economically, so, too, do they seem to be trending towards more freedom as well. 30 years ago, one could not even travel to China without special permission. Now anyone can get a visa to visit China. The government has loosened its hold on business in China, and they've prospered because of it. International trade is opening up.

China is still not the greatest place in the world to live, due in large part to the still-on-the-oppressive-side government, but, like I said, there are signs of hope. I'm predicting that within the next half-century, we'll be calling China our best ally in the world, while many of our so-called allies of today will likely be some of the most hostile nations to the United States. The European Union is moving in the opposite direction, economically speaking, as China, and as the reigns tighten around the European economy, so too will the reigns be tightened on the European people, who will see the United States, China, and other nations who are trending toward economic freedom prosper while Europe descends into poverty.

On the homefront, we certainly need to defend ourselves and our freedoms from the likes of Ruth Bader Ginsberg and her ilk, lest we follow Europe into the world of economic folly.

RE: dyerje, judicial review
"The Founders never intended judicial review to mean that the judicial branch was superior to the people's representatives...."

Technically, The Founders never intended the notion of judicial review to exist altogether. The notion of judicial review isn't found anywhere within the Constitution. It was a notion the Supreme Court granted itself in 1803 (see Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137) in what is perhaps the first case of judicial activism in the United States.

abortion
A lady 9 months pregnant is on her way to an abortion clinic.A guy runs a stop sign broadsides her car.The accident kills the baby.Is he guilty of vehicular homicide?

abortion
Actually I agree with the founder of planned parenthood's oft stated goals -and with the idea that the overwhelming majority of "women" who have abortions are unfit to reproduce period.
However the basis for Roe V Wade is beyond absurd.
The invented constitutional right to privacy has no stature and the derivation from that idiotic postulate that a woman can make any decision she wants ---disregarding the unalterable fact that from conception life exists---is absurd.
of course the prior posts re: the death penalty point out the ridiculousness of the rabid left position.
Roe v Wade has nothing to do with abortion - it's plainly a power grab--ughh what monstrosities the ugly club have become

Oh my...
I didn't think it was possible, but soehow Merry_go_boy made this into an anti_CFR diatribe.

I am impressed. Next, someone please tell me how this can ll be solved by voting for Ron Paul. Then hve someone else explain how the Zionists are behind it all.

Amazing how many single issue posters we have here. No matter the topic, it relates to the CFR, illegal immigration, Ron Paul, or the jews.

Thank G-D there are a lot more sensible folks who actually manage to see there is more than one issue in the world.

Ginsberg
Justice Ginsberg, the over-aged fetus with the ossified brain - this legally ignorant, logic challenged, leftist ideologue - should be compelled to witness the partial birth procedure which she's obviously ignorant of.

(This is, indeed, a generous characterization. Otherwise, if ignorance were not considered, imagining Ginsberg as a death camp prison guard would not be all that difficult considering that doing to a dog nowadays what she so vigorously defends doing to humans in her written opinion would land one in prison on a felony conviction).

Given the role she fills as a SCOTUS Justice, Ginsberg displays a disregard for the Constitution, an hostility to the Judeo-Christian basis of the legal system and a total absence of any common decency that is breathtaking.

Any character and morality this misanthrope ever possessed has already rotted - IMO, her body can't follow soon enough.

Control over a woman's body
For one to believe that restrictions on abortion take away "a woman's autonomy to determine her life's course" one must also believe that woman have no control over their sexual practices. Pregnancy is, after all, not an unforeseeable and random occurrence--it is the predictable result of sexual activity.

This is the basis of modern Liberalism--that people should be spared the consequences of their actions. A woman who does not want to bear children can easily accomplish this without resorting to abortion, but of course, she would have to make certain concessions with regard to her personal behavior. But Liberals don't want to make any concessions--they want to be able to do exactly as they please and pay no cost for it.

A Liberal is someone who wants to have their cake and eat yours too.

servetus
unfortunately your position has a flaw-- a woman has had a myriad of options to prevent or abort the pregnancy monthe before the "birth" day arrives.
Codifying her stupidity with bogus law compounds the idiocy.
not to mention thsat if her "health" is truly an issue there is always Caesarean section.
Strawman arguments abound

Give that man a prize!
'For one to believe that restrictions on abortion take away "a woman's autonomy to determine her life's course" one must also believe that woman have no control over their sexual practices.'

DING DING DING DING DING! Welcome to the world of rationality.

The truth of the matter is even if ALL abortions were banned, women STILL "have the right to choose". They have the right to "choose" to keep their legs shut.

Maybe this issue would be different if there were rogue sperm running around and randomly impregnating women, but that is just nonsense. Outside of rape, there is no way whatsoever for a woman to get pregnant without her, at least passive, consent.

Abortion, by and large, is nothing but a means by which the consequences of irresponsibility can be minimized. The irresponsible behavior is what needs to be stopped, not the heartbeat of an unborn child.

To Servetus
The reason that there is no health exception in the partial birth abortion ban is that Congress, after holding extensive hearings, found that use of the partial birth abortion procedure is never necessary for the health of the mother. That is not something that lends support to what is an off-the-wall opinion of Justice Ginsburg.

In my view, if you cannot understand that partial birth abortion is morally wrong and should be banned -- period, then you have something wrong with you.

My 2
Whenthe decision came through, I sauntered to Daily Kos. The Planned Parenthood had this statement: That is was.."a dark day for women's healtha nd safety." Planned Parenthood actually said that!!! Now, do thye not advocate birth control? Gasp! They do, but it is also the same organization who sold t-shirts saying "I had an abortion" as if that was osomething to be proud of.
People, it boils down to the responsibility to make the right choice. You want sex,use a rubber, the pill, the sponge. Whatever does not get you pregnant so that you use abortion as a form of BC. Those who get caught certainly had a choice not to get pregnant...but to then wait until you are past "the 12 week mark" and insinuate that it's a dark day for women because you can't get a murder committed to save your asss?
Why don't we just let all the women who chose to have children (but whose bodies cannot seem to make the gestation period) go through the premature labor and do nothing extraordinary to save the baby, and call it partial birth death?
Do you see how absurd it is for people to say this decision was awful?
My son(14) said that there is no accidental parenthood, therefore there should be no abortions. Pretty smart, I think.

She looks like Mr.Burns on the Simpsons!
Conservative Ron echoed my sentiments and said it better than I could rant. How in the world could conservatives allow a leftwing radical such as this to the highest court in the land? The court that is supposed to interpret the laws of our nation in their true sense. No activists needed for the court. Unrelated to abortion I am still apalled that they upheld the bi-partisan "campaign" reform act(also known as the destroy the First Amendment Act.)Thanks for nothing John McCain. It's disturbing that she thinks it's essential to a woman's life to be able to take the life of her(shared) child. At what age does that "right" stop? If you don't like your busy little two year old, cut it's head off? Or drown them in the bath tub? What a psycho. By shared I mean it is the father's child also and has a say in whether or not the child should be born.

Mr. Burns!
EEEEEEExcellent!

union dude
That would be a homocide or manslaughter. How hypocritical though if she made it to the clinic she and the doc could have killed the same child.

Didn't Scott Peterson get two counts of murder? One for his unborn child?

servetus
"Then one reads the comments. "emasculated, feminized"..to be womanly is to be a bad thing for some folks."

It is if you're a man. Not necessary if you're a natural woman.

""who want to have free sex and no responsibility for the consequences" ie pregnancy should be a form of punishment for wayward women. What defenders of women you guys must be."

That's innane. Punishment is when you do something and someone else justly does something to you. No. This is simply a responsibility that comes with freedom/right. A woman has a right to make moral choices... but a responsibility for the consequences. She does not have a "right" to kill someone else to avoid those consequences simply because she finds them inconvenient after the fact.

Tell us. If a man has sex with a woman and she gets pregnant, should he be able to kill her because he doesn't like the responsibilities that come with his actions? Should he be able to force her to undergo an abortion? Should he be able to kill the child immediately after birth?


reign
reign is not synonymous with rein - and neither fall mainly on the plain

Same child
"union dude
That would be a homocide or manslaughter. How hypocritical though if she made it to the clinic she and the doc could have killed the same child.

Didn't Scott Peterson get two counts of murder? One for his unborn child?"

Same child and it would have been older. In fact, if she were to have the abortion a month later the driver would still be charged... but the abortionist wouldn't.

This inconsistency proves definitively that there is no "right" to abortion.

BLY
So well said. Anyone taking a "Logic 101" course could see how ridiculous the arguments of the left are. "If I call it's a fetus, I can kill it. If I call it a baby, I'll have it." It doesn't matter what a person thinks about what is growing in the womb. It is what it is, human life.

sjt18-So right!
This is the most illogical argument in the history of man. A person needs to take his "feelings" out of this argument. If done, this should be so clear. My oldest son understood it at age 9.

TIMING and DNA
TIMING. It's timing. Women do have "complete automomy over their reproductive rights". How many forms of birth control are there? Women should implement their reproductive rights when having sex, not after they've had it and the result is being with child.

Oh I forgot, women should have complete control over their own bodies. But why does that give them control over someone else's? Take note: That "thing" inside has a complete human DNA structure and it is different from the mother's. It is inside of her, but IT'S NOT HER BODY, IT'S SOMEONE ELSE'S.

To the secularists and atheists out there, see I didn't have to say God once. Whoops, I just did.

Phil Byler
tries to correct: "No, David Limbaugh's position is not based on personal disgust as to the barbarity of partial birth abortion, although he and indeed all of us should have that disgust. David Limbaugh's (and my) constitutional position is that abortion is not a legal riught protected by the due process clauses of the U.S. Constitution...."

You're correct, abortion is not a right, that is a straw man and is not the basis of this decision nor was it the basis of Roe v Wade, and privacy is only a minor issue. The issue here is the state's traditional interest in protecting the life and health of the living woman. If the woman doesn't have this right how can it be claimed for the fetus/baby?

Read the decision, Kennedy clearly addresses the woman's health, even acknowledges it is the deciding factor, but dismisses it because opinion is divided over whether heath is at issue in this case. That is the legal, constitutional issue. Dismissing it allows him to base decision on an appeal to emotion, personal disgust, and that is judicial activism.

Kent
Undeniable logic. A woman does have a choice and it is whether to have sex or not. Every woman knows that this choice may have consequences, be it pregnancy, disease, or a broken heart.

Will
the aborted baby was not given a choice.The troops in Iraq are .They knew or should have known that being in the military means you could be killed.Remember a lot of those that have joined did so after the start of this war.

limbaugh on abortion decision Ginsburg
First time posting here and disappointed to see some of the comments not different in style than you would kind on Kos. Let us keep emotion and low level writing out.

First a few comments. Writers talk about paying the price for not careful sex. If we take that seriously, then we dont treat accidents where car drivers dont wear seat belts or motorcyclists dont wear hemlets. It is a silly argument. It is akin to blaming sexy clothes for rape.

What seems to be missed in all those who want to remove abortion from being protected as a liberty right; ie, who is in control of your body are the following examples which all involve the "sanctity of life"

A mother is criminally negligent if she starves her child. But, if the child needs 2 oz of blood to survive, the mother is not under any legal obligation to supply this trivial amount. IF the child is on operating table and all of a sudden needs blood and there is none in the hospital but the Drs and nurses have a match, they are not required to save the life by the trivial donation of one oz of their blood, but if these drs and nurses do not sterilize equipment and child dies as a result they are criminally and civilly liable.

Take this example. An identical twin kills her mother in cold blood and seriously injures her sister. The injured sister will only survive with a bone marrow transplant(extremely hard nd). We cannot compel the murderer, her identical twin, to give up the bone marrow even if she is to be executed the next day.

Suppose no dialysis machines and I agree to hook myself up to person X every other nite as a dialysis machine for him. Somewhere along the line, I change my mind, cut the tubes tying me to him and walk away. I agreed and then I aborted. HE dies. Under current constitinal law I am not compelled to keep to that contract.

I am about to die. I cannot be compelled to give my organs which will be either ashes or eaten by worms to save someone's life.

What is my point? The above examples indicate that in our jurisprudence, liberty means you own your own body and cannot be compelled to utilize your body to save someone else's life or well being regardless of how trivial or how irrelevant in the the case of your death where your body parts do you no good. The only place where you are required to volunteer your body is in a draft for war.

So the question, is why should abortion be any different? If we understand that we cannot compell a mother or father to give on oz of blood to save a borne child, it makes no sense to say that we must compel a mother to maintain a pregnancy, a much greater burden on the person than an oz of blood.

Unfortunately, no one has spelled this out as I have. It is talk as Ginsburg et al do in terms of abstract terms of autonomy etc. Above, I have tried to concretize this by getting away from abortion by illustrating other situations where the state is forbidden to interefere with one's liberty of over one's body even in death reagardless of the lives it might save,.

So, it is irrelevant how one categorizes the organism inside the mother. Of course, it is some stage of human development. Of course, the fertized egg one day old is a beginning stage of what may become a full fledged person(assuming the right chemistry in the womb. And of course, the copper coil inserted in uterues will abort the one day old fetus by preventing its implantation in the womb. Logically, there is no difference between the one day old fetus and the 4 month old. But of course, perceptually or psycholligcally there is a difference; it looks like us. And it is this that is upsetting to many.

But I ask if we cant force a dying person to save someone in need of bone marrow transplant at no cost to his bodily health since he is dying, then what is the rationale to define abortion as something that is not a liberty interest; that is you own your own body and are not obligated to use to save another or keep another alive. This is of course legal. I am not talking about one making a moral case for this.

It seems to me if we want to challange the concept of abortion, then we have to challange the whole concept of owning your own body as exemplified in the examples above and then we compel prisoners to give up organs; dead people's organ to be consfisicated to save lives; parents forced to give blood by law, etc.

Am I missing something?

I just wonder if the court were made of 4 women, of the center, neigher right or left, if the decision would have been the same.

One last thing. It seems to be argueing about the method of abortion is like arugeing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. All abortoin procedures if you saw them up close would be gruesome to most laymen. The issue is not the type of procedure and its subjective effect on us, but whether abortion falls into the same class of examples I illustrated above or is it some exception to the rule that you own your own body and and cannot be compelled to use it legally for the benefit of someone else.

len
Your argument is a take on the arguments in the book; "Breaking the Abortion Deadlock: From Choice to Consent" by Eileen McDonagh. It is a very clever and persuasive line of reasoning that the pro-abortion crowd has been forced into because they can no longer defend their contention that the unborn is not a human life. First of all I do not concede the point that a woman has no more legal obligation to supply a trivial amount of needed blood to her own child for whom she is responsible. To fail to do so would indeed be neglect. Can you site a legal precedent where a mother was not legally accountable for withholding healthy blood from a child she had custody of? The rest of your examples are not even parallel to abortion. Why should I concede that a woman has no more obligation to her own child than a twin to a sibling or to a 'man' needing dialysis? Frankly it is a little frightening that you are persuaded by an argument that mothers have no more moral obligation to their own child than to a stranger. Therefore how we catergorize the "organism in the womb," is still very much relevant. So the question remains "What is the unborn?"

Len
You wrote this:

"Let us keep emotion and low level writing out."

Yet you continued to write your low-level drool

drivebyposting writes:
drivebyposting writes:

"The right wing has yet to convince main stream Americans that abortion is murder precisely because they are so rude, in your face, baby killer screaming, and obnoxious."

Thats because we never had a chance to take the abortion issue to the people. Nine lawyers in Robes told everyone Abortion is somehow written in the constitution. Now it is a Sacrament.

len
"First a few comments. Writers talk about paying the price for not careful sex. If we take that seriously, then we dont treat accidents where car drivers dont wear seat belts or motorcyclists dont wear hemlets. It is a silly argument. It is akin to blaming sexy clothes for rape."

Oranges and apples. Non sequitur.

A person who acts recklessly and endangers their own body and is injured IS at the mercy and good will of those with the skill to treat them.

You've made a victim of the reckless party in this case.

In the other example, you compare a woman who is the victim with a woman who is responsible and the offender. In abortion, the child is the innocent person being vicimized. In effect, the woman is "blaming" and "punishing" the child for HER misjudgment.

In each of your other examples, you compare cases where people might refuse to take responsibility for things that were not the result of their choice with things that are except for the identical twin one... and do you really want to compare all aborting mothers to a murderer's/criminal's sense of charity? I don't think that helps you case either.

The difference in abortion and all of the cases you present is that pregnancy is the direct, known result of a free choice. Every freedom involves responsibility or else it isn't freedom- it is license... and we aren't free people with rights but slaves with privileges.

Guaranteed
If images no more graphic than prime time tv allows of aborted babies could be included in commercials and ads... the dividing line on abortion would shift sharply right.

Even if just accurate depictions of an unborn baby in the womb were shown and reinforced the middle would shift. The limited exposure people have had has shifted the dividing line by something like 10% over the past 25 years or so.

People aren't as informed as they need to be and in the vacuum the left has filled many with disinformation or confusion by using code terms such as "fetus"... that some people confuse to be something other than an unborn, living baby.


Female Justices?
"I just wonder if the court were made of 4 women, of the center, neigher right or left, if the decision would have been the same."

Since well over 80% of Americans believe this procedure should be outlawed... if the Court were reflective of the society at large the decision would have been 7-2 or 8-1 regardless of gender. Since the Court was loaded with leftists and is just now moving back toward equillibrium (polls consistently show America is a "right of center" country), a 6-3 decision would have been more reflective of "us".

sjt18
Absolutely. The root of lens argument is that the unborn child can be considered an invading, unwanted parasite that is attacking the mother's body and one that she is under no obligation to protect. This is the corner that abortion supporters are forced into because technology has rendered their assertion that the unborn is a blob of tissue, absurd.

lens also states
"Logically, there is no difference between the one day old fetus and the 4 month old. But of course, perceptually or psycholligcally there is a difference; it looks like us. And it is this that is upsetting to many." Can I point out that the one- day- old 'fetus' looks exactly like every other human in history did at that stage.


My fetus
I better go tend to my one-year-old fetus (young one) he has gotten into his diaper bag and smeared desitan all over himself and the carpet :) But I'm not worried that the pro-abortion position will run amuck with my absence, you guys are more equipped than I am to defend the defenseless.

drive by pizzing
For libdrools like you anything that is contrary to your beliefs or agenda equals offensive. You all have so twisted that word that no disagreement is accepted. You on the Left are the ones who have destroyed communication in this country. Infact o tolerant one, when Bush invited some of your loudmouth political leaders to the WH to discuss Iraq, the act of which showed that perhaps he is not as "stubborn" as you all claim and certainly the very thing you've all been clamoring for: inclusiveness, did they rush down there to exchange ideas? Oh no. They dismissed him out of hand and went back to their daily screeds. It's much like when you (dimocr@ps) were for deposing Saddam and then you weren't, you wanted more troops and then you didn't, you voted for something before you didn't, etc. You guys haven't got a plan and you are anyhting but consistent and that is annoying. You (Dimocr@ps) are a joke sitting on your pedestals looking down the rest of us. A conservative will happily debate with a libtard untils the argument gets off point or deteriorates into ad hominen ataacks as it always will. Then my friend the debate is over.

servetus
You wrote" "What's never mentioned in Limbaugh's piece is that this legislation bans the procedure *without* health exemptions. When women's health can be ignored and set aside it's hard to see how Ginsburg doesn't have a point about women's equality."
Typical lib simply regurgitating the libdrool talking points without thinking for yourself. It took me all of 30 seconds to locate this finding in the PBA Ban Act itself to repudiate your statement: " (5) However, the great weight of evidence presented at the Stenberg trialand other trials challenging partial-birth abortion bans, as well as at extensive Congressional hearings, demonstrates that a partial-birth abortionis never necessary to preserve 20the health of a woman, poses significant health risks to a woman upon whom the procedure is performed, and is outside of the standard of medical care."

This what drives conservatives nuts. You guys repeat what you read in the papers and hear on TV without considering the sources and determining if they have their own agenda. I can tell you in the MSM they always do and its not usually to our benefit. Wake up.

Gonzo
You wrote: Simple Solution The Morning after pill, and sex education that fully details STDs and makes birth control available. Make pregnancies far less numerous, and abortion almost disappears."

YOU NATURALLY LEFT OUT THE MOST IMPORTANT TYPE OF SEX EDUCATION MOST OF US PROMOTE - ABSTENTION. OH NO WE CAN'T TEACH THAT - THAT IS "RELIGIOUS". WHAT CR@P! NOW I AM NOT PUSHING ABSTENTION NOR DO I THINK TEENS CAN POSSIBLY DO THAT AS A RULE HOWEVER YOU TALK ABOUT MAKING PREGNANCIES LESS NUMEROUS AND I'M SURE YOU CANNOT COME UP WITH A BETTER WAY OF DOING THAT.

"But no, the righties are hell-bent on inserting the government they so disdain into the American bedroom . Except Newt Gingirich's. And Ted Haggard's. And Rudy Giulianni's. And the red states where divorce is higher than in Massachussetts."

WE DO NOT INSERT OURSELVES INTO THE BEDROOM. WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS FINE DO WHAT YOU WANT BUT SHOULD A PREGNANCY OCCUR YOU HAVE CREATED A LIFE. TO TAKE THAT LIFE IS MURDER. AND MURDER IS AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL. IN FACT BASED ON YOUR COMMENTS, WITH ALL OF THE BIRTH CONTROL AVAILABLE OUT THERE IT IS SHAMEFUL THAT ABORTION IS USED AS BC.

NEWT, TED, RUDY AND ANY FRIGGIN DIMOCR@P WHO IS INVOLVED ARE IRRELEVANT AS IS YOUR STATEMENT ABOUT DIVORCE AND RED STATES. I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE THE TIME TO INVESTIGATE THAT BUT I HAVE A HUNCH A GREATER PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE GET MARRIED IN RED STATES RATHER THAN RUNNING AROUND FORNICATING WITH WHOEVER THEY CAN. ANOTHER TYPICAL LIBDOLT STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.

Len
That's really some kind of human pretzel you've managed to twist yourself into, Pal.

Kind of reminds me of that old saying, "If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance -- baffle them with bullsh*t!"

Good On Paper
you wrote: "Let's see, no woman is supposed to have an abortion for ANY reason -- danger to the mother's life or health, conception due to rape or incest, high probability of severe birth defects, or the mental, emotional and/or financial incapability of the mother to raise the child."

You are twisting the argument in an effort to demonize opponents of PBA and put us all in the same box. The majority of those against abortion understand the difference when it involves the health of the mother and conception due to rape or incest and is not simply birth control. Regarding babies with birth defects I believe you would find a split in the opinions there, and on the financial inability to raise the child when numerous people look to adopt? - you betcha. So if you are going to have an intelligent discussion on this matter it must also be an honest one and your statement just isn't.

will opines...
"But the same mind that is telling young men to fight this war is the same mind that nominated Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court & continues to support Alberto Gonzales..."

You're correct "will"... and it is the same mind that nominated Roberts & Alito (thank God).

Of course, we COULD have had the internet inventor/global warming God or that fellow who served in Vietnam with such distinction calling these shots instead.

Yeah... that would have been so much better.

Will
Are you being serious about the soldier analogy?

All soldiers go into battle without knowing all the facts. Did you think they all get a 9/11 Commission report to read about every battle they will enter into before signing up?

Will
How many babies are killed by anal and oral sex? And a follow up question: What are you smoking?

will
"Common Sense
And I hope all you people ferverently opposed to partial-birth abortion will at the very least whole-heartedly support the "morning-after pill". Which has the potential to reduce large numbers of abortions down the line."

Common sense should tell us that a baby with a heartbeat and neural activity is alive no matter what its current location happens to be... womb or nurse's arms.

So to the point, let's deal with the more obvious things and stop trying to obfuscate with the more "gray" issues.

will makes a good point
Abstinence programs in schools under secular humanist guidelines don't work and we shouldn't expect them to. Telling a kid that they shouldn't do something only reinforces the self-centered, self-worshipping, self-justifying attitudes that undermine sexual chastity/responsibility to start with.

Much like educating those with the criminal mindset while in prison, educating someone without giving them a moral standard just makes them more creative in their misbehavior.

These kids he mentioned apparently bought the notion that the reason they shouldn't do certain things is that it wouldn't work for them... so they try to find ways to get around the costs.

This is another proof of the failure of the whole concept of public/secular education. Education that does not deal with the whole person to include their spirits is not only incomplete, it is dangerous to society.

Taking God out of gov't schools is a problem. Putting God into public schools is a problem. Solution: Take gov't out of schools.

Excellent post by Jesse!
You hit the nail on the head Jesse! I am going to copy and paste your post for future debate on this issue. You worded the argument perfectly!

**Repost of Jesse's Post - Must Read!**
For one to believe that restrictions on abortion take away "a woman's autonomy to determine her life's course" one must also believe that woman have no control over their sexual practices. Pregnancy is, after all, not an unforeseeable and random occurrence--it is the predictable result of sexual activity.

This is the basis of modern Liberalism--that people should be spared the consequences of their actions. A woman who does not want to bear children can easily accomplish this without resorting to abortion, but of course, she would have to make certain concessions with regard to her personal behavior. But Liberals don't want to make any concessions--they want to be able to do exactly as they please and pay no cost for it.

A Liberal is someone who wants to have their cake and eat yours too.

By Jesse at 12:27pm

I wonder if the hag in blackrobe
ever carried a child to term. The most grotesque examples of females seem to represent the 'right to murder one's offspring" side. (Rosie, Jane Fonda, Gloria Steinem, etc..)

Why So Vitriolic? You Won
You people got the ruling you wanted. What is it you don't like about this being a two-party nation? What do you have now to gain by calling Ruth Bader Ginsburg hard names? You WON. Can't you be gracious in victory?

I am not a conservative, since God awarded me both a brain and a heart, but I have been spending a lot of time on conservative websites seeking to understand conservatives. I am impressed with what optimists you folks are, because you seem ever-confident that if only you get your way, everything will work out just as you want it to:

1) If abortion is made illegal, no woman will ever again have an abortion.

2) If you arm everybody, all would-be assailants will be immediately shot by an expert marksman who will take them out with a single head-shot.

3) If we stay in Iraq, we will achieve a military and political victory.

4) If young people are taught that condoms don't work, they won't have sexual intercourse.

5) If creationism is taught to high school students instead of biology, those students will behave lovingly toward one another.

6) If the United States practices isolationism, invades sovereign nations then occupies them for years, tortures its military prisoners, violates its international treaties, and thumbs its nose at international organizations such as the United Nations, World Bank, Amnesty International, and the International Red Cross, world peace will result.


lilly
"I am not a conservative, since God awarded me both a brain and a heart,"

Why so vitriolic indeed... If you really had that "brain" you infer we don't have then you would recognize the lack of logical reasoning behind justifications for abortion. If you had that heart you presume we don't have, you couldn't bear to allow the cruel, wretched things done to unborn babies by their own mothers.

"I am impressed with what optimists you folks are, because you seem ever-confident that if only you get your way, everything will work out just as you want it to:"

Sarcasm... Are you pouting because of this "loss"?

"1) If abortion is made illegal, no woman will ever again have an abortion."

No. Just as laws against murder don't prevent all murders. However we as a society will have said that it is not acceptable for a babies right to live can be violated if the mother happens to find them an inconvenient consequence of irresponsible behavior.

"2) If you arm everybody, all would-be assailants will be immediately shot by an expert marksman who will take them out with a single head-shot."

No. Statistics show there'd be less assailants. Armed, law abiding citizens raise the potential costs of being a criminal to a level many aren't willing to accept. It makes that burger flipping job look much better.

"3) If we stay in Iraq, we will achieve a military and political victory."

Maybe, maybe not. There are risks in staying... but they are much more tolerable than the risks liberals don't consider with demands to withdraw. Leave Iraq in terrorist hands and there will be a much, much larger war to fight and price to pay. Moreover, no one has more power than those who would order an unconditional withdrawl to boost Islamic extremism and terrorism. It will only have proven what they believe to be true now... that we don't have the courage to stand against their determination.

"4) If young people are taught that condoms don't work, they won't have sexual intercourse."

No. If young people are taught that fornication and adultery are sins that will be judged by a real and authoritative God both temporally and eternally... then they'll be more careful and less inclined to see if they can find a way around the consequences.

Studies are beginning to show that both physical and mental health are negatively effected by promiscuity, perversion, and early, illegitimate sexual activity not to mention abortion. All the things liberals 30 years ago were OK and/or naturally good expressions that we shouldn't resist are now being discovered to harm people beyond STD's and pregnancy... God and the Bible were right all along.

"5) If creationism is taught to high school students instead of biology, those students will behave lovingly toward one another."

Evolution does not equal biology. Creationism is not biology nor contradictory to it. Biology in the operational sense does not depend on an explanation for origins... only on the observations of what happens now.

OTOH, naturalism/materialism is a dangerous philosophy when applied broadly... as evolutionists are often wont to do.

"6) If the United States practices isolationism, invades sovereign nations then occupies them for years, tortures its military prisoners, violates its international treaties, and thumbs its nose at international organizations such as the United Nations, World Bank, Amnesty International, and the International Red Cross, world peace will result."

The attitude implied by this straw man is laughably naive. For one, "isolationism" and "invades sovereign nations" are mutually exclusive.

"Torture"? The worst of the things our guys have been accused of seldom rise to the classic, historical definition of "torture". OTOH, liberals seem to think that if we could just get Islamists to sit down and talk, if we would just compromise and make concessions, if we just wouldn't be so... well, rigid on issues of right and wrong... then everything would be OK... even though these people don't have a problem with real torture. The most recent example is a video of a 12 year old hacking a supposed traitors head off.

I doubt you have any conception of what real torture is. Thousands of young men will go out in the hot August sun and suffer more abuse than most of these terrorists have just to play a game.

Abstinence Study
The much lauded Mathematica Study, that assume is being cited here, was based on 4 out of seven hundred federally funded abstinence programs. None of these four programs studied included high school instruction. Hardly, a sweeping condemnation of abstinence education.

More of the Same
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

"Would you like to see the Supreme Court overturn its 1973 Roe versus Wade decision concerning abortion, or not?"
Would Would Not Unsure
29 62 9
1/19-21/07

-------------

More of the same. Just as with the ever, unpopular Iraq War and by almost the same percentage numbers the right wingers keep on heaping on helpings of more of the same sanctimounious vitriol and expecting someone to pay attention to them. Seems to me all the name calling of those opposed to the war as "traitors" and those opposed to abortion as "baby killers" hasn't had any effect in changing peoples minds.

The same sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, crap is all this thread is.

1.) America is against the war in Iraq by a wide majority.
2.) America is against overturning Roe. V. Wade by a wide majority.

Yet the right wing in both cases treats main stream America as beneath contempt, monsters when it comes to America's oppostion to the Iraq War and overturning Roe. More of the same rhetoric. The right wing knows no humility. In fact the right wing media is insane. It keeps repeating the the same bombastic pro-war, pro-life arguments over-and-over again expecting different results.

Right wing media is completely impotent and inert when it comes to setting populist politics.

Now if the Roe V. Wade could run for office and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth could launch an attack ad, well then there be some convincing done.

Mudsling, negativity, obnoxious, rants work well in campaign elections. Not so much with policy.

Maybe God will bless you all day with an Epiphany that perhaps name calling, self-righteous indignation is perhaps not the best attitude to take when trying to win the hearts and minds of people in Arguments.

God will most certainly have to do it, because no human will ever convince any of you obnoxious types to treat humans with respect.

Will
State your statistical evidence that most of us who oppose abortion also oppose rational means of birth control.

When telling us that conservatives are far removed from the real world we live in I say you are wrong. Conservatives wish to define the world we live in differently than liberals wish to define it. We believe in responsibility for the consequences of our actions, accountability, respect for human life and for the protection of life and liberty.

It is for the protection of life and liberty that we are engaged in Iraq. Yes, we are redoubling our efforts in Iraq because this is a fight we cannot afford to lose. What makes this fight particularly difficult is that American citizens like yourself but particulary those of your ilk who are in leadership positions in the government continue to work hard to oppose our efforts in Iraq. They are invested in defeat. I would consider Harry Reid, particularly his announcement of surrender today to be treasonous.

Do we wish to live in a world devoid of abortions? You bet your life we do and yes, I support and use rational methods of birth control. As for adolescents, I do prefer to counsel them in abstinence. I understand that some will have sex anyway and those who do will hopefully use a condom but for those who heed our advice they will be rewarded as they progress through life and pick a life partner who has done the same.

Amazingly, our way worked for many generations in this country. Even though I am not a religious person I am able to recognize that the greatest harm that has been done to the youth of this country during my lifetime has been the way the influence of the church and its teachings have been diminished by secularists, probably like yourself and to some extent, me. To the extent that I am partly to blame for ignoring these teachings I offer my apology.

The Ginza[burg] District
What I'm reading here has become a wild ride into the valley of nonsense, misinterpretation, truth, and frustration. While not totally nuts, the Liberals writing here continue to misapply logic, compare apples to oranges, and refuse to believe in the miracle of life or any responsible concepts in the thoughts of others.

Justice Ruth Ginzburg is a modern righteous Liberal with illogical beliefs---but with the power to hoist them up to control our lives. It's unfortunate she ever made it so high in our judicial system. Thank God, she's in the minority in this case. Let's hope this isn't the last time.

I think the concept that privacy is not a Constitutionally enumerated right has been fully visited before, but the left still throws it out as a 'given.' Hang on to any straw, eh? Just like the left's mantra of global warming: a given, right? [Even Australian Liberals are into it. One scientist there claims that cremations are causing global warming. To combat it, he proposes that we bury our dead at the feet [so to speak] of trees and in cardboard boxes. The decomposing human bodies could feed nutrients to the trees through the roots---followed shortly thereafter, I suppose, by Uncle Fred's visage appearing in the buds above?]

Slightly off topic is my comment to drivebyposting, who I wish would continue driving on away from us. According to you, the simple fact of showing Liberals to be in the gutter of politics and thought is offensive to them. Wow! Calling someone on the carpet is now offensive. Telling the truth about someone is offensive. Holy self-esteem, Batman!

And whether Dennis Prager rails against Liberals or not is hardly a reason to attack his fairness. If a serial killer is on the rampage, a fair and balanced newscast would still call him a murderer. And that doesn't make it less fair and balanced. Does it?

The purposeful taking of a life is murder. The only exceptions---and they aren't murder---is for the execution of a convicted murderer or self defense. The murderer or attempted murderer [if killed by the defensive person] is a person who has given up any right to his own life, so I have no problem with such a legal demise. There are certainly enough laws to protect the the convict during the appeal and cooling off procedures.

Len, you offer bad comparisons. The taking of the life of an unborn baby is monstrous, and it has nothing comparable to it. It's not similar to blood transfusion, organ donor, or anything else you can think up. Try some other tack, but don't trivialize the birth process.

A pregnancy begins when the fertilized egg attaches itself to the womb and begins growing. I know that's not what many churches say, but I have to look at this realistically and with the benefit of reading the scientific literature. You Liberals can argue about this from now until eternity [which you won't see], and it won't change the truth.

Our soldiers enlist voluntarily, Will, and they take an oath to obey legal orders. Those who were ordered to Iraq were ordered there legally. Whether there was a Liberal around to misinform them about---wait. The Democrats voted for the war, didn't they? And their leaders had access to most of the same information that President Bush had. Oh, well. Per the Democrats: truth is a lie; a lie is the truth. What a sorry looking bunch.

Normally, a soldier is not involved in the political cycle, only in the carrying out of legal orders.
So, give that argument a rest, Will, okay?

Servetus, you'd be best served by reading the actual 2003 law that was passed. It would answer a lot of your concerns. Perhaps, even reading the majority Supreme Court opinion would help you understand something. Don't criticise what you haven't read.

And lastly, I don't know exactly how the morning after pill works. If the fertilized egg is already attached to the womb, then it's still a murder, and nothing more need be said.

Life is a miracle, and our ending of it [with the exceptions above], is a violation of humanity's reason for being.

Who gets it?
David, you do get it. I'm a former pro-choice person who is now strongly pro-life. I believe I am one of millions who has come around to the truth. We must stand for life if America is to survive. The Democrats stand for death, death of the fetus, death of morality, death of justice, and death of America itself.

Conservative Ron
"Conservatives wish to define the world we live in differently than liberals wish to define it."

This attitude, that you can define the world, Hayek called the fatal conceit.

jander
Thank you. I'm really humbled by such a compliment. People are going to think that you're me writing under another name. I just wish you'd fixed my typo in your re-post:)

will
The study I cited is the Mathematica Study as I have already stated. I'm not sure what you are quoting?

Will - liar or just ignorant?
Will said,

"AND they want to live in a world devoid of any abortions, yet most do not support any form of birth control, do not support morning-after pills, want the schools & churches to put into place "abstinence only" programs THEN CONSIDER THE PROBLEM SOLVED."

The issue here is passing a law that restricts the most inhumane form of abortion - which most people, conservative and liberal, agree should be stopped. And when I say most people, there are multiple polls supporting that statement.

You say here that "most(conservatives) do not support any form of birth control", you know that is a complete lie. While there are some conservatives that do not agree with birth control, such as Catholics, to say "most" conservatives is a very incorrect generalization. You have made this generalization either by being dishonest or by ignorance. You can pick which.

You also say,

"Iraq is a horrific, monstrous mistake. SO...after 4 years of madness with the situation devolving into further chaos, do Bush & the conservatives admit their mistake & offer practical solutions? NO! They bunker down & re-double their efforts - the exact opposite of what the situation requires."

The amount of people dying in Iraq now is the same as during Saddam's rule. The only difference is that you are hearing about it now. Libs like yourself keep saying that we are losing in Iraq, just like Kronkite said we were losing in Vietnam. Funny that he was wrong, just like you are now! Wars are all fun and games. Things suck. They don't go as planned. Expecting otherwise is just an example of your complete ignorance about the military and war history in general.

What is equally funny is how liberals want the US involved in places like Danfur and Bosnia, but when we get involved somewhere with someone that is our actual enemy, then they complain. Do you really believe that Saddam would have stood by idly while Iran tries to go nuclear? We would have gotten involved in the middle east at some point. It was just a matter of time.

Libs degrade the discussion
First we have driveby implying that if we can't the question of "Is abortion murder" to a vote and win it we have to continue letting the barbaric procedure known as Partial Birth Abortion go unchecked.

Then we have len positing a series of hopelessly contrived scenarios that literally have about one chance in a million of ever actuall occuring but which, in his contorted logic, seem to support some the notion that a pregnant woman has no responsibility for the well-being of her unborn child.

And finally, the inevitable. will drags the Iraq War into it (you just KNEW some lib was going to).

Why is it that even when a Court that has a 5-4 liberal majority on it declares an anti-abortion law to be constitutional the left still has to drag out all the same tired cliches, civil rights rhetoric, and other sub-intellectual garbage they have used to pamper their libido and asuage their conscience instead of recognizing that hey, maybe they should adjust their behavior on this one?

Just a little bit.

Correction to my above post
Wars are "not" all fun and games.

Your welcome Jesse
Your quite welcome! I didn't notice the spelling errors, so I wouldn't worry about it. We all make our share of them. I post while at work inbetween service calls, so I sometimes make errors. Your argument was excellent and a perspective that should be read to pro-choice people everywhere. It breaks the issue down to it's basic element. Respect for life and being responsible for your actions.

lonestarblues
You misinterpret my statement. I did not intend to define the world in the broad context of the entire globe. I am speaking of our world, right here in America where we must come to grips with our own culture. As a conservative I believe in those things I outlined in my original comments. Secularists prefer a world where no one is responsible for the consequences of their own actions. This is the world I speak of.

Will
Will do. I will add you to my list of traitors, but watch your statements. As a traitor you are not my friend.

Ruth Buzzy Bader Ginsburg/Nosferatu
The picture of Ginsburg in the article is the spitting image of Nosferatu (the vampire beast) in such films as Salem's Lot and some really old vampire movies. How appropo that she be in favor of murdering innocents.

RE: "truly, I just don't get it"
"the notion that the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act furthers any legitimate governmental interest is, quite simply, irrational."

I'm feeling kind of lazy so I haven't actually read the case to understand the context of this quote, but in the big picture I would guess Ginsburgh is saying that it's irrational to ban partial-birth abortions on grounds that it's inhumane when the effect of that ban will be for doctors to instead rely on D&E's where they chop up the fetus in utero and then vacuum out the remains.

Scalia's 68 years old and with the majority of the country wanting to elect a Democrat, the pro-choice is going to wait for him to kick-the-bucket and clarify the law to solidify the Constitutionality of this even more groteque procedure - I think that's what Ginsburgh meant when she was calling people who 'just don't get it' 'irrational'. jmo though . . .

Re: Scalia
Correction - he's 71 and a control freak, which means he's like an old 71 . . .

Grandma Robby
"Whether someone names the killing of the most innocent among us murder or not means little except in the grand scheme of the liberal mind. I shall never understand how my country could give the absolute right to murder/kill a defenseless human to one segment of our population based solely on gender and a perceived "need." There is something gravely wrong with an ideology that would produce such thinking."

Well said - I couldn't agree more. Abortion is little more than a facet of planned extermination and right now, it looks as if the West is willingly participating in its own eradication.

But specifically with regard to the US, abortion, even as a concept, is morally reprehensible. Even the Declaration guarantees 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'. Further, the Constitution does not give ANYONE the 'right' to take life (including the state without due process). And yet SCOTUS Justices combined in 1973 to find this barbaric practice of abortion 'Constitutional', subject to the will of a single person.

Grandma, you learned what this nation was all about before liberalism started distorting, ridiculing and undermining that entire meaning - and they do it with the protections provided by people who would otherwise loath and despise them. And here, at these sites, we hear its heinous tenets squawked and parroted by mindless, indoctrinated idiots.

How, indeed, has it come to this?

re:
"And here, at these sites, we hear its heinous tenets squawked and parroted by mindless, indoctrinated idiots.
How, indeed, has it come to this?"

Listen bimbo - I scored first in my state bar and neither you nor your potty-mouthed granny are Constitutional scholars - not are you apparently very grounded in reality.

I posted a similar comment on another website, but basically what I said over there is that there is a difference between thinking you're virtuous and being virtuous. Bush had all those grandiose plans to spread 'democracy' into the Middle East but thought it was over with 'Mission Accomplished' - now millions have been murdered and millions more are dying in Darfur and the troops are so depleted we're powerless to help.

So too now is the religious right deluding themselves with their grand visions of spreading 'life' by focusing on one grotesque medical procedure that is effectively getting replaced with an even more grotesque procedure or perhaps no available alternative at all and then they think their do-gooding is complete - mission accomplished once again with absolutely no apparent awareness that their are REAL LIVE PEOPLE who are affected by their actions. You take the moral highground for claiming life is precious, but are you willing to put your actions where your mouth is by adopting the crack baby the mother gave birth to but didn't want because she couldn't afford an abortion until her 4th trimester? Are you willing to go into your neighborhood ghetto to babysit the baby and her 6 siblings from sun-down to sun-up because the mother needs to turn tricks to put food on the table and support her drug habit while the baby's daddy is in jail? Are you willing to contribute financially for the doctor's visits, the diapers, and the formula? Did you put any thought whatsoever into the consequences of your stance or were you too wraped up in patting yourself on the back for all your goodness?

If God wanted us to try and eliminate abortions then isn't it more likely that he intended for us to do that by CARING about the people who find themselves in the position of needing these types of abortions in the first place - largely the urban poor - so that they don't find themselves in the position of needing late-term abortions. I scrolled through this entire comment section and not ONE person gave any thoght to the mother or to the life that child will live outside the womb - of course I may have missed such a thought because of all the pride displayed . . .


re:
Handy writes: Saturday, April, 21, 2007 2:49 AM
Hey Sam,
Abort thyself. Be a leader. Set the example.

Yeah, I'm right and you know it - the raising of the children whose lives you and your religious buddies just saved is just as much on your shoulders as the guy who donated the sperm. You wish it weren't true, but it is . . . what are YOU willing to do about it? You KNOW what Jesus would do . . .

True Colors = Hypocrite
Sounds like an abortion advocate to me - twice! So how do you reconcile your pleas for me to abort myself with your pro-life stance and as a Christian? I don't think you can. And I don't think a true Christian would ignore the lives of innocent children, even if they live in the ghetto - not in life, and not even on a message board. jmo.

But the lawyer joke was funny, and we don't do a lot to make a great name for ourselves as a whole, I'll give you that.

Nee-- Planned Parenthood
The following quotes are from a book that Margaret Sanger wrote, who founded Planned Parenthood. She was a strong advocate of eugenics and social engineering, seeming to believe that a master race could be created, much like Hitler.

“Birth Control, which has been criticized as negative and destructive, is really the greatest and most truly eugenic method, and its adoption as part of the program of Eugenics would immediately give a concrete and realistic power to that science… as the most constructive and necessary of the means to racial health.” (Sanger, The Pivot of Civilization, p. 189, 1922)

“The emergency problem of segregation and sterilization must be faced immediately. Every feeble-minded girl or woman of the hereditary type, especially of the moron class, should be segregated during the reproductive period.... we prefer the policy of immediate sterilization, of making sure that parenthood is absolutely prohibited to the feeble-minded.” (Sanger, The Pivot of Civilization, pp. 101 - 102, 1922)

“...nearly half - 47.3 per cent - of the population had the mentality of twelve-year-old children or less - in other words that they are morons.” (Sanger, The Pivot of Civilization, p. 263, 1922)

"only 13,500,000 will ever show superior intelligence" (Sanger, The Pivot of Civilization, p. 264, 1922).

“Organized charity itself is....the surest sign that our civilization has bred, is breeding and is perpetuating constantly increasing numbers of defectives, delinquents and dependents.” (Sanger, The Pivot of Civilization, p. 108, 1922)

“…a special type of philanthropy or benevolence,....which strikes me as being more insidiously injurious than any other.... to supply gratis medical and nursing facilities to slum mothers.” (Sanger, The Pivot of Civilization, p. 114, 1922)

“.... we are paying for and even submitting to the dictates of an ever increasing, unceasingly spawning class of human beings who never should have been born at all.....” (Sanger, The Pivot of Civilization, p. 187, 1922)

“Although Planned Parenthood was forced, during the fascist era and immediately thereafter, to tone down Sanger's racist rhetoric from 'race betterment' to 'family planning' for the benefit of the poor and racial minorities, the organization's basic goal of curbing the population growth rate among 'undesirables' never really changed. Bush publicly asserted that he agreed '1,000 percent' with Planned Parenthood.” (Tarpley & Chaitkin, p. 195, 1992)

Conservative Ron
Will is no traitor.

re:
"... and then they think their do-gooding is complete - mission accomplished once again with absolutely no apparent awareness that their are REAL LIVE PEOPLE who are affected by their actions."

Those real live people are affected by their own actions.

Conservative Ron
"I am speaking of our world, right here in America where we must come to grips with our own culture."

And that is what I was addressing. I'm not questioning your personal values, they seem conservative, _socially_ conservative, _religiously_ conservative in your belief, but not conservative in the sense of recognizing no one, as Hayek argues, can possibly know enough about our world and culture to define, or redefine, it. Your initial statement--"Conservatives wish to define the world we live in differently than liberals wish to define it."--is wishful thinking. Conservatism as I understand it won't go down that road.

(Won't address your straw man definition of secularists. It beats itself up, lol.)

Sam the cat
As a pro-life couseling center volunteer I do help those women after the fact. Hundreds of us help everyday--I have a woderful friend who does take in crack-babies, the problem is the state--instead of leaving the child with her and her loving family, they take the child and give it back to the mother the second she becomes sober enough to realize it is gone.
I hate these kinds of arguments where you acuse us of being like the lib who just wants the problem to go away. Most Christian conservatives are generous with their money, their time, and their caring. And let me ask you 2 things.
How many people at planned parenthood are volunteer? And when was the last time you sat up on a 8 hour suicide watch for a woman who has had 2 abortions (first trimester both times) and can no longer sleep because she can't get the picture of what happened in the abortion room out of her head? I did that last week--How about you?

Rogue Historian writes:
"There doesn't exist a Constitutional right or prohibition against abortion." Rogue is exactly right. The Constitution clearly states in Amendment 10, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” This is why Rove v Wade should be overturned. Until The People have a chance to vote for a Constitutional Amendment, the individual States should decide the legality of abortion for themselves.

Bobbit nonsense
Is almost as inane as Gunny junk

No, I didn't forget abstinence, nor the failure of it to work. It's obviously the best theoetically, but then you missed the point of teens and hormones.

And cap lock debates! Wow! Is that supposed to emphasize your O'Reilly like shouting? And let me remind you that you don't think abstinence will work as a rule, yet it's the most important? It's simply one of many, bobbit.

And you don't think that the laws the righties are promoting are based on what happens in the bedroom? Are you really that naieve? Why do you suppose that the likes of Giulianni are being judged? Because of their poker playing? And just what aspect of a gay relationship is immoral?

I find abortion as a form of birth control distateful to say the least, and the most inefficient. But then I'm not a female, and don't have anyone telling me what can or cannot be done inside my body. Yet having lived in a Midwestern city with a Lutheran College and secular college in the same city, guess how many girls from the church school came into the local Planned Parenthood clinic for abortions? As long as I lived there,(23 years) it was about 25% of the freshman class every year. The secular school had close to none. Why? Because the abstinence only crowd had no idea about birth control, or self-control. Nor would they allow it on campus.

As for your unwillingness to look at divorce rates state by state, I will then tell you that it certainly doesn't support your argument any to be so willingly ignorant. And there wouldn't be such high divorce rates unless they were getting married. But it does say that they can't maintain those relationships. So much for traditional family values ala Newt Gingrich and Ted Haggard.

So the house of straw seems to me one built on hinches, unsubstantiated rebuttals, and ignorance. The American body politic woke up to that last November. In '08, they will again, and hopefully elect some folk that are more in tune with "we the people," regardless of their party affiliation, than with their own interests.


sjt on responsiblity re pregnancy
I pointed out that the argument one should pay the price of pregnancy by keeping the pregnancy going as some kind of punishment is not very powerful since we dont punish people for other mistakes such as not wearing a seatbelt or helment. His reponse was that people who dont wear seatbelts are at the mercy and good will of the caretakers. He is wrong. When you go into an ermergency room, all people get the same treatment. No one does you a favor. It is their responsiblity.
Secondly, who gets punished by unwanted pregancies? Well, if you go into the inner city where you might have teen age pregancies, and single parent households, you get crime, murder etc. So all those people who are the victims of this crime from unsocialized kids are the victims of people who should not have children.

I am not pushing this as an argument for abortion; i am just pointing out that the society pays a price for childern born into single parent families.

re: beyond the pale
"And when was the last time you sat up on a 8 hour suicide watch for a woman who has had 2 abortions (first trimester both times) and can no longer sleep because she can't get the picture of what happened in the abortion room out of her head? I did that last week--How about you?"

Where as a pro-life councellor did you get access to a woman on suicide watch because she had 2 abortions and couldn't get the picture out of her head? Are you a nurse and did you disclose the conflict of interest inherent in you treating a suicidal woman who may have been experiencing guilt over the procedure? I believe it's unethical for you to have been anywhere near this woman.

And once again the issue isn't birth control, it's larger than pills and abortions to me it's about PEOPLE. All your do-gooding is selfish imo in that it's geared towards furthering your agenda in a way that doesn't help REAL LIVE PEOPLE get a leg up so that they have the resources and wherewithal to be in control of their life and their body and not need abortions in the first place. When was the last time you went into the ghetto and empowered an individual with knowledge and mentoring. When was the last time you had to drive into the ghetto and pray you didn't get shot because you were white so you could help out a former crack baby whose 12 and still hadn't mastered multiplication tables and who was falling through the cracks in school. When were in a position to wonder whether you might have caught hepatitis from your tutoree after sharing a sip of your soda after he grandma mentions this. When were you in a position of learning where cockroaches scurried across your feet? When were you there for a former crack baby when her mother once again failed to show up when she said she would because she was high. When where you there for a former crack baby when a drug dealer tried to offer her drugs to get her hooked and into prostitution as a quick fix to her frustration in school? When were you there to break up a fight between this girl and her jealous sister who ended up in the foster care of another relative who beat her and molested her until she ran away to support her self with prostitution at 10?

You claim your friends are all generous, but then the religious right also things they're winning in Iraq - I'm not confident you're basing your conclusions on fact and not what you want to see.

I do agree with you that the state needs to do more because even if your friends are 'generous' they're not making much of an impact. Look, there's a direct correlation between abortion rates and violent crime - meaning when abortions go down, violent crimes 20 years later go up. If somebody would just think about the costs of incarceration 20 years from now and do something to prevent them with time, caring, and resources the hardest hit people would at least have a fighting chance and it wouldn't have to cost a dime. The kicker is that people have to care and do something about it. Whe the partial birth abortion bill was drafted they should have included funding to help the mothers and children whose lives were going to be altered by their actions. To think it ends with the ban of a procedure is just 'mission accomplished' yet again.

elizabeth--on response to len re abortio
Elizabeth: Thanks for the civility; rare. First, my argument is taken from nowhere but what I thought of myself. Let me suggest that you stick to issues and not attack me for being some parrot of others. And if in fact, I absorbed these ideas from others, so what. We will absorb ideas from others.

You challenge my assertion that a parent cannot be compelled to give one ounce of blood to save her borne child. I don’t have the time here to annotate this and maybe some lawyer will respond this. I know this: There are two case in supreme law where the state can compel one to have one’s body invaded. If you are suspected of a crime, you can be forced to give blood sample as evidence just as fingerprints. The rationale for that is that there is a compelling state interest in protecting society. There other is something like this. In case of an epidemic, you can be ordered to be vacinaated, and if you refuse, then you can be quaranteed(sic). Again, the rationale is to protect society and by society they mean great numbers of people if we let possible criminals loose or someone with a catchable disease. Those are the only grounds. You are aware of Jehovah’s witnesses who have this thing about blood; what the court does here is not order the parent to give blood but supercedes the parent’s authority and blood is given from the hospital blood supply.

Let me further expand on one exception to giving up your control of your body. I mentioned the draft in time of war where you body is exposed to death. But even, here, if a wounded person needs blood, the officer cannot order someone to give blood to the wounded. Of course, most would voluntarily do so. Similarily, on very hazardous missions, one asks for volunteers. Also, I doubt, that would be legal in our system to ask a pilot to crash his plane into a ship as did the Japanese in WW ii. And what is why we have medals for extraordinary bravery: because it is voluntary and not ordered.

You miss the point in my examples of the twin giving up her organ. Remember, the twin is to be executed. Her organ is of no use. Secondly, the murderous twin is the one RESPONSIBLE destroying the the kidney of her twin. Key word:responsbile as in a getting pregnant. In our culture, if you are responsible for some hurt to someone, you go to jail and/or pay a fine. Here, the bad twin has destroyed the kidney of her sister. Under our consitition all we can do is put her in jail, hang her, and make her pay a fine. We cannot strap her to table and take her kidney as restitution(as in Saudi Arabia: eye for an eye.

I belabor this to make a point so you understand the real rationale for arugment for abortion not being criminal. And the point is that the govt is prohibited from interfering or assaulting your body. You own it. And this is the rationale why we cannot strap down the twin to get her kidney for the kidney she ruined. And this is this is the argument of a pregnant woman being in charge of her own body regardless of the life in it as long as that life is part of her body and not just a closet. You may not like the argument, but that is it.

Let me expand on the issue you raise of neglect if a mother refuses to give blood to her child to save it. IF the child is sick and mother ignores this and does not take child to Doctor, you are correct, she could be charged with neglect. But she takes the child to the doctor. And he schedules an operation. The mother is in the operating room. Boom. The child needs blood. There is none in the hospital. So the mother is aksed to give hers. She refuses. The doctors and nurses dont volunteer their own(assuming a match). The child dies.

I know you dont like this. But there is no law that will hold any of the above accountable because under our consitition liberty is defined as not being forced to intrude on your own body for sake of others. That is the law. Morals are another issue.

Take the same scenario where the doctors are negligent in useing sterile equipment and the child dies. In this case, the medical staff is expected to use sterile equipment; it is their responsiblity and thus they are criminally negligent. But neither the mother or the medical staff is required to utilize their own bodily fluids to save another.

Take another hypothetical. You have valuable antique worth one million dollars the size of penny. The thief swallows it and for some crazy reason it gets stuck in his ribs. He gets an xray and it shows up. So the question, can you get it back by having a court order a minor surgical procedure to get it back. No. All you can do is sue him and get money if he has any. Again, this illustrates the principle of owning your own body free of govt interference except for exceptons i listed above.


Given, that the argument against abortion rests on the sanctity of life, then it makes no sense not to require her to give up the organ. Don’t forget she is responsible for the damage to her sister just as you argue the mother is responsible for being pregnant. My point is under our understanding of liberty, you own your own body and however distasteful or shameful, you cannot be compelled to give it up.

In my example, as serving as a dialysis machine for a person, the point was I agreed to do it just as a woman agrees in many cases to get pregnant. The common point is the agreement to do so. But in the case of dialysis agreement, it cannot be held up legally just as one cant agree to be slave and have it enforced. So we have in common in this hypothetical agreement to sustain life. I see no difference in breaking the agreement. And that is why in all countries subject to the Enlighment, there is abortion. Only in Arab countries, you don’t own your own body. Hence, killed for adultery, for aborting etc.

You say it is frightening that I see no moral obligation. I did not say that. But it is not so simple. Most would agree that if mother’s health seriously threatened, abortion is least of two evils. Many would agree if the child were serverly disabled(would have an IQ of 10; ½ brain missing) that abortion okay. So inbetween these extremes, how does one decide. We have rape. Most agree abortion okay there. Or incest. What about 1 12 year old; no rape or incest; a child from lower classes who already has two strikes. See, once, you make excuses for rape (and most people against abortion do) then it becomes quite subjective what constitutes grounds. Clearly, for someone like you, who seems competent and I assume to be a good mother, it would be immoral. I am not sure I would say the same for Paris Hilton. It might be the moral thing for her to do that

You state that the rest of my egs are not relevant. My point is that the anti-abortion position rests on the sanctity of life. Well, that argument crumbles if you cannot force people who will die to give their organs to people who will die without them instead of giving up their organs to ashes or worms. I think it is immoral not to give your organs. I would give my kidney in a second for my children, grandchildren, and a friend. I have been thinking of giving to stranger but have held off in case my children would need it where I would be a perfect match. It is clearly immoral not to do so upon death because there is no cost to you. And why don’t we force people to leave their organs. It goes to liberty aspects of the constititon that you are not required to sacrifice your body, even when it will be dead, for anyone. I am sorry you don’t see the connection to abortion. It is really the same principle. In fact, in abortion, there is a cost to the person carrying the fetus wheras there is no cost to a dead person; and yet ask yourself, why we don’t compel that. Think about it. It is the same principle. Thanks for your civil reply which is a rarity on both the right and left wing sites. Also think about why we don’t take death row prisoner’s organ just prior to their execution. It makes no sense if the sanctity of life trumps everything. But, control of your own body trumps the sanctity of life. And you did not reply to point that the doctor and nurse will be held criminally liable for negligence but not for refusing to give their own blood to save a patient. There is a principle you are not getting. And it is not to be sophistic.


One last point. You apparently see no distinction between a one day old and 4 month old. I stated logically that is true. But that is not the point. My point is what turns most off off on abortion is not logic but perception. And so, if there were a vote on allowing abortion only in the first month of pregnancy, my guess is that you would get 90%; the further along less and less. And if you talked about the morning after pill in which you have maybe only a few cells, you would never get a marjority---never—never to ban the pill. The more the fetus looks like us, the more people are bothered was my point.

Sjt18
I don’t understand your point. The person who does not wear a seatbelt or hemlet is not at the mercy or goodwill. The caretakers are obligated by law to treat the person no differently than the careful driver. Right Gov Corzine driving at 91 mph with no seatbelt is getting super treatment.

Your argument about free choice and taking responsibility has no relevance. Of course, you are responsible for your actions. What does that mean. You never get divorced. You never change your mind. You are saying because you purposely get pregnant, then you must face the consequences of carrying full term. Well, in many choices we make, we can change your mind. The issue is not moral; that is you cannot force your moral choices on others. The issue is simply whether the state can interfere in your choices regarding your body. And as I indicated to Eliz, leaving abortion aside, there are only two exeptions: giving blood in a criminal case for evidence; and being forced to be vacinatted in an epidemic or face house arrest until epidemic is over. And even when you volunteer for the army that does not include being forced to commit jihad as do our Moslems fanatics.

"Legal expert"
The only thing that Limbaugh seems to practice is partisan hackery. Why is it that he, and Coulter, and others of the right who are nothing but hacks, can't practice in the fields they took their degree in? They get columns in fringe publications, one even run by a cult, and the righties gobble up whatever they say.

It makes their credibility at best laughable.

abortion is no in the constition?
Many argue that abortion is not in the consitition. Let me first state, I think we would have been better off if no Roe Wade and it was left up to the states because it would not be such a wedge issue which is an albatross around conservatives and causes them to lose or win by a hair. If roe wade were now to go down the tubes, the repuplican party would split and lead the way to advantage of the liberal agenda re the road to socialism.
But Roe Wade is here. And so the intellectual question is whether it is constitional.

Many on the site state, it is not in the consitition. Well, so what. Masturbation is not in the constititon. Neither is homosexual behavior in the consitition. Neither is inter-racial marriage in the consititoin.
If you read the 5th and 9th amendment, the abstract words of rights priveleges etc which I will use the simple term liberty, is in the consitition.
Hence, one has to interpret. IF you take the time to read the dissent in the famous Plessy Fergerson case which upheld segregation in the famous separate but equal doctrine, you will note the dissenter, Justice Harlan, bases his dissent on the concept of liberty; and that, we are free to assosiciate with out goverment interference. That argument did not fly at that time. But it flys now. Liberty. And so a state that wants to punish consenual homosexual behavior between adults or solitary masturbation cant do it because liberty is contained in the constition. So the argument that homosexuality or masturbatino is not in the consitition is a non-sequiter.

The question is whether it is reasonable interpretation of liberty. And that may be up for grabs and different interpretations. But because abortion is not mentioned is irrelevant. So stop parroting that.

A personal note. Way back when I first thought about this, I tried to keep emotions out and think very logically. I put myself in this situation. I am in a jury where a woman is on trial for aborting her child because she wanted to get an education--a rather trivial reason for many on this forum. And if we take the pro-life movement seriously, it is murder, hence, life in prison or death row or 30 years.
I in no way could vote for such on the jury. I would be practicing jury nullification.
Am I unique? You could not find a random picked jury in this country that would send a woman to jail. In Saudi Arabia of course, no problem.

What does that tell us. That there is no consensus. And that implies, we should leave it alone; leave to the individual conscience. Otherwise, you have tyranny of those who know it all like Ben Laden who speak to God and have no need of democracy or individual rights.

Sam
So what its all about is blame, then. The crack babies and crack parents in the ghetto are the very people that a pro-life position support the most. Giving those people 'a leg up' will not help them at all if they are determined not to use their OWN legs as well; and only inclines those who insist that their problems are someone else's fault to propagate that very mentality that keeps them there.

Compassion and responsibility are mutually inclusive, and not having one, one can't expect much of the other.

Ginsburg overlooked the horror
Justice Ginsburg and many of her fellow thinkers on Partial Abortion simply overlook the horror of the "procedure." Otherwise how else could she and others like her stand by this barbarism?

It's so bad that I can't even bring myself to describe it, especially in polite company - and I'm a person who's visited Dachau and been behind the old Berlin Wall twice. You would think that the horrors of Nazism and Communism would exceed that of a medical "procedure." Not in this case.


Ginsberg Should Be Impeached
No Judge should be allowed to advocate for murder and stay on the bench. Murder is against federal law and all state laws. Maybe Ginsberg missed that in law school.

Partial Birth Abortion Ban
David Limbaugh got it right. "I don't get it", either. Court and federal government abortion law has become the "third rail" of woman's rights--a litmus test of are you for or against equality of women. I am for a woman's equality. I am against killing unborn children that could live outside the womb. These are completely different subjects. I support the Supreme Courts upholding the ban on partial birth abortion. I am appalled that Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg continues to view partial birth abortion as integral to a woman's equality while ignoring the the right to life of an innocent child.

???
"I just LOVE the 'liberal' argument that, "Well then women would just go to back-alley doctors, so nothing would change--except women would be endangered"--what a RIDICULOUS arguement! Oh my, you mean they'd actually have to consider/face the CONSEQUENCES of their loose ways!? How INCONVENIENT! It's funny how 'liberals' have no problem using the coercive powers of Gov't to steal from the 'rich', but when that same power is used to thwart THEIR communistic and immoral agenda, they cry "foul"; bunch of hypocrites!"

So you're saying responsibility to you is that women deserve to die in back allies rather than be allowed to have a partial-birth abortion? There's hypocrisy in that in the sense that you're wishing death upon the women carrying the babies whose lives you claim to be wanting to save . . . if you wished for the pregnant mother to die, aren't you therefore secretly wishing for the unborn baby to die?

I think you're only taking that stance because my position that you bear some responsibility to contribute to the upkeep of the children who are going to be born as a result of your pro-life platform is stressing you out and so you're trying to avoid it. The thing is these lives are going to be affected by your choice to act or not act.

Knowing the link between lower abortion rates and the increase in violent crime 20 years after the fact, how can you NOT support a redistribution of funds from incarceration to investment in the future of at-risk urban poor? It isn't going to cost a dime - all it requires is that you believe the urban poor have value. And this as a Christian ought to come naturally.

Ruth Needs Some Body Work -- Fast
If you think Ruth Bader Ginsburg looks bad now, you should have seen her before the facelift.

Come visit (click on name above and bookmark) if you’re depressed by modern developments.

Every morning by 10 a.m. Eastern Time there will be an original political joke (several today) on this site – except of course when the TH server is down or when the political scene is atypically unfunny. Reading the rest of the blog is optional. Here’s a sample:

Hillary Clinton says that when she’s elected President she’ll appoint Bill a “roving ambassador” designed to patch up the U.S. image, especially among young women;

DBP
drivebyposting writes: Friday, April, 20, 2007 7:47 PM
God will most certainly have to do it, because no human will ever convince any of you obnoxious types to treat humans with respect.
--------------------------------------
Respect? Sorry, I'm too busy watching the women of America be brainwashed that murder is acceptable as long as you use the process of abortion to conduct it. Of course, then there's the women who cannot understand why they're sterile after three or four procedures like this.

Just in case you are referencing capital punishment, I'd like to see what those millions of babies did to warrant the same penalty society designates for the most abhorrent criminals. Oh that's right, nothing.

I'm surprised you have the time to consider anything less than abortion in your responses. Easily, it is the number one cause of human death in America, bar none. All this in order to guarantee privacy. If privacy is so damn sacred in our society why can every mortgage company in the world have my information without my permission? It's not about privacy, it's about immature imitations of power by murdering children.

Liberty
It was Will that defined himself as belonging on a list of the treasonous. I merely accepted his own definition.

lonestarblues
I believe that every law and every decision by our courts to some extent define where our culture is. I believe the Roe decision had a profound effect on the culture and I look forward to the evisceration of this decision. When this finally happens it will represent a shift in the culture back to one that appreciates life and recognizes the value of each individual child. I care not about the writing of someone named Hayek. Will our culture ever be totally defined? Of course not because it is ever-evolving. But as men and women of conscience are placed on the court much can be done about the current definition.

In response to SamtheCat
"I think you're only taking that stance because my position that you bear some responsibility to contribute to the upkeep of the children who are going to be born as a result of your pro-life platform "

Groovy. My tax dollars are already funding abortions for women who just can't be troubled to act responsibly. I'd rather those dollars go to assisting live human beings, than making more dead ones. Let's do it, if that's your primary objection. Are you up for it?
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