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Friday, March 16, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Even Think It
by David Limbaugh
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Marine Gen. Peter Pace has violated a cardinal rule of our politically correct culture: stating his opinion that homosexual behavior is immoral. While some of his critics say they are upset he uttered his remarks in his official capacity, that's a mere sidebar. Their real beef is with the content of his remarks, not in what capacity -- official or personal -- he made them.

Had Gen. Pace, in full dress uniform, expressed approval of homosexual behavior, do you think there would be a similar uproar? Or would he have been celebrated as a man of courage and enlightenment?

But that's not quite what he said in an interview with the Chicago Tribune on the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy, which essentially provides that as long as homosexuals don't engage in homosexual conduct, their orientation will be irrelevant and certainly not disqualifying.

Pace said he believes, "that homosexual acts between individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts." But he was clear that he was expressing his personal views "as an individual."

After activist groups and politicians went ballistic over Pace's remarks, he said he regretted emphasizing his personal views and that he should have "focused more on the policy." But he refused to apologize.

The advocacy group Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (SLDN) issued a statement on its website that, "Gen. Pace's comments are outrageous, insensitive and disrespectful to the 65,000 lesbian and gay troops now serving in the armed forces. Our men and women in uniform make tremendous sacrifices for our country, and deserve Gen. Pace's praise, not his condemnation. prejudice should not dictate policy."

But Pace did not show disrespect for or demean the sacrifice of homosexual service members. In fact, he said he supported the policy, which allows homosexuals to serve, and that it does not make "a judgment about individual acts." In his support for the policy, it's obvious he believes homosexuals can and do make valuable contributions to the services.

Contrary to SLDN's statement, the policy is not grounded in prejudice against homosexuals, or even morality, for that matter -- it does not make "a judgment about individual acts." It is based primarily on national security concerns, which experts evidently believe would be compromised by permitting homosexual behavior.

Pandering politicians expressed their indignation as well. Similar to SLDN, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi implied that Pace was challenging the patriotism of homosexual service members, which he manifestly was not.

Congressman Marty Meehan, D-Mass., who introduced legislation to repeal "don't ask, don't tell," said Pace's opinions were in the minority in both the civilian and military populations. Assuming for purposes of argument that Meehan's dubious assertion is true, it is completely irrelevant. We don't formulate our moral positions based on the polls. Certain values, such as opposition to homosexual "marriage," in the words of Pope Benedict XVI -- and I'm not Catholic -- are "nonnegotiable."

Meehan also said the military's policy discriminates against homosexuals. But it doesn't bar homosexual orientation and, actually, tacitly condones it. It only forbids homosexual conduct. Many, many laws discriminate against certain behaviors.

Whether, given his official position, Pace should have offered his personal views on the morality of homosexual conduct instead of confining his remarks to the military policy is one thing. But that's not what this flap is really about.

Pace's hanging offense is having passed moral judgment on homosexual behavior and those engaging in it. Certain opinions are strictly forbidden in our society, whether you utter them in uniform or civvies, in public or in private.

If Pace's unpardonable sin is being judgmental, aren't many of his accusers guilty of the very same thing? Are they not passing moral judgment on and demeaning him for passing moral judgment on homosexual behavior?

Many homosexual activists and others, while demanding "tolerance," want to silence and demonize those who disapprove of homosexual behavior. For them, it's not just "don't ask, don't tell." It's "don't tell, and don't even think these thoughts."

Pace is right not to apologize for the content of his remarks, which would be insincere. While I'm certainly not trying to be offensive, and people are free to disagree, Pace's moral position on this has been affirmed by virtually every religion and society throughout history, and by "Nature's Law," upon which this country was founded. He has just as much right to express it as his critics have to express theirs.

If the tolerance police are looking for a target against whom to direct their wrath, they should consider Sen. Hillary Clinton, who, with characteristic courage and forthrightness, declined to answer whether "homosexuality" was immoral, saying that was for "others to conclude." Like Gen. Pace, perhaps?

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Homosexuality is Diversity Intolerance!
Homosexuality is sex diversity intolerance when it comes to 'love'. A gay man will NEVER tolerate a woman as an equal in marriage.

In contrast, straight heterosexuality is gender-inclusive sex diversity orientation!

Shouldn't everyone be inclusive and diversity oriented?

Kathy
These little sermons you keep repeating are an attempt to keep thoughts out of your brain that you, for some reason, probably find frightening.

I think the fact that you sit at your computer writing this stuff again and again, hour after hour, is your way of making a kind of magic that you think will protect you.

Get some help.

Kathy
You are so thought-disordered that I can't even insult you any more - it's too much like kicking a cripple.

Get some help, I mean it - I think you are a walking time-bomb and are a danger to yourself and possibly others as well.

Kathy, you don't even write like a normal person - your rhythms and syntax sound like you sat through too many hours of Elmer Gantry. Believe me, something is wrong, every human being deserves better than what you are getting from life.

Please, don't praise Jesus any more, it just makes me feel sorrier for you.

Don't ask, don't tell
There is nothing wrong with someone expressing his or her personal views.

Antiteenmomma
You are ridiculous. What makes you think I give a s**t one way or another what you and your girlfriend do as far as "hot sex"?

Just don't say you have a right to do it as a US serviceman/woman.

Further, it doesn't matter what my standard or YOUR standard is as far as IQ. It matters what the standards are of the US MILITARY.

Got it now?

I thought it was pretty simple, clear and straightforward the first time around.

dog - your post of 5:05

Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again.

baseballdoc - your post on 11:21AM

There is a very recent case in a sting operation where a man was arrested for having the INTENT to have sex with an underage girl. The police set the sting up on the Internet, followed up, and now the man is in prison.

In fact, the underage girl was fictitious.

dyerje
Well said. And your summarization is perfect: those in the military are supposed to "just get over it".

How facile.

It's easy for some liberal who has no personal stake in the issue, because he's never served and never will, to tell others to "just get over it".

BrianR and Liberty First
I appreciate your exchange on the central issue of why American society or our government should force those in the military to live in close quarters with gays.

That IS the central issue, and no one can provide a good answer to the question. I've posed it before at Townhall and never received an answer.

As a recently retired Naval officer, I share your concerns. The military should not be on the defensive about this. The onus should properly be on those who advocate open homosexuality in the military, to explain why our civic polity, which charters and gives purpose to the military, has a stake in forcing its members to "just get over" whatever feelings they may have about homosexual behavior.

Dog
Talk about growing up, you've got a long way to go, dude.

You obviously have absolutely zero experience in a combat zone, so you can comfortably sit there and throw out your ridiculous theories, which have absolutely nothing to do with reality.

How nice for you.

Brian R,
I got side-tracked by an important phone call but wanted to respond...

I probably wrote and sent my posts a little too quickly, tonight. Fair enough: non-sequitur it is. I did read the posts, but too quickly, without registering who said what. I was just reacting to some of the overall comments, which didn't make sense since I was responding directly to you.

I'm nothing if not a fair debater. :)

You win. I'll bow out and stick with what I should be working on tonight. I'm definitely not free enough to give this the proper focus. And I'm not sure I know enough about the military to qualify as an authority.

Enjoy!

Martha


BrianR
Do I think military men should be little Lord Fauntleroys? No, I just think they should be encouraged to act like human beings instead of animals.

Do I think that the troops who raped, murdered and incinerated a 12 year old then killed her family to be Little Lord Fauntleroys? It probably would have avoided 6 senseless and brutal murders.

When a deployed female who is someone's sister, wife, mother or girlfriend can't leave her tent after dark without a weapon or a protector it hardly sounds like I'm asking for Little Lord Fauntleroys.

Grow up.

BrianR
Do I think military men should be little Lord Fauntleroys? No, I just think they should be encouraged to act like human beings instead of animals.

Do I think that the troops who raped, murdered and incinerated a 12 year old then killed her family to be Little Lord Fauntleroys? It probably would have avoided 6 senseless and brutal murders.

When a deployed female who is someone's sister, wife, mother or girlfriend can't leave her tent after dark without a weapon or a protector it hardly sounds like I'm asking for Little Lord Fauntleroys.

Grow up.

Semper Fi Gen. Pace
I spent a great deal of my adult life in the military. All of my time was spent in infantry and artillery units.

I can tell you from experience that 99% of the men that I served with LOVE women. They didn't want to be anywhere near gays.

The military is a tight-knit organization. You had to shower and sh** together. That's too close of a relationship to be putting up with gay people.

Besides, in every unit that I was in, a gay NCO/Officer who got outted lost all respect of the men. That's because we liked women, and anyone who didn't wasn't one of us...no matter what their qualifications were.

As far as kicking out gay linguists, there is an old and tried principal that is never mentioned:
And that is that EVERYONE can be replaced by someone AS qualified or MORE qualified as the person that is leaving.

Get over yourselves gay people. You ain't that important to the military.

Gen. Pace IS entittled to his opinion. Where is it written in the UCMJ that a Marine officer looses his right to express his opinion when he becomes a Senior Officer?

Gen. Pace is is exhibiting what the Army Leadership manual use to call Moral Courage.
Good for him. That's what I expect of a senior military officer. Semper Fi and Hoo-ah to Gen. Pace.

Martha: Hmmmmm
Well, I think that you haven't read what I wrote about the real issue involved with having gays in the military. If you have, then your closing comment seems to be either a non-sequitur, or a complete dismissal of its validity.

Just by way of qualification, I'm an Army brat, raised in that environment, and served three years on active duty myself. I think I know at least a bit about what I'm writing.

But, okay. We're all entitled to our opinions.

Brian R,
I have to admit it, you have a perfectly valid point. Indeed, if there is enough political pressure, we don't hear the actual beliefs of a person serving in an official capacity.

By the same token, Gen. Pace did voice an "incorrect" opinion , and I don't see him being crucified. Of course, there is going to be some posturing, and just plain lying, as everyone hurries to score their political points. But he said it and he'll be fine.

To be fair, I do think the military has every right to hold all kinds of high expectations -- stricter than the law of the land, actually. As a teacher, I expect to be held to a stricter standard, as well. Truthfully, I wish the military would set their expectations a lot higher, especially when it comes to sexual harassment.

However, there are plenty of straight men who have served in the military and not been the least bit bothered by their gay bunk-mates -- the same ones who could treat women with respect. And, let's get real. Most of the comments on this topic really do reek of sexual uptightness and phobia. It's sounds like people have been unbelievably sheltered from the real world.

Chalk up at least 2 pts. for you; one for me. :)

Martha


Dog
I didn't say keep women out of the military; I said keep them out of combat zones.

If you're going to quote me, please be accurate, and address my real argument, not what you "thought" I said or meant.

Further, you are expecting young men in the military -- a warrior culture -- to act like Little Lord Fauntleroys, sipping tea with their pinkies in the air? Particularly in a CZ? Trust me, bud, when you're in the CZ, etiquette is your least concern. You are being paid to act like an animal in a kill-or-be-killed situation. That's not a mindset that turns on and off like a light switch. Don't complicate issues by throwing sex into the mix.

You close by saying we Americans should try to change. Change what? The best military force in the world? That's what the libs are trying to do by watering it down into a meals-on-wheels equal opportunity employer, instead of a killing machine.

I think the libs should set their sights on getting women into the NBA first. Let's let the military slide for now. It has a job that's a BIT more important.

Kathy
I'm sorry I said you were dumb. I really don't know, but I think you have major problems and I see somebody who is very unhappy and desparate. I feel sorry for you, and I don't mean that in a sarcastic or unkind way.

BrianR
I figured someone would say that, but try to look at it another way - instead of keeping women out of the military, why should everyone buy into the "boys will be boys" view and expect them to behave in ways that are different from those of cave-men? It's a way of saying that that's what they are, in fact.

During the years that "Mash" was a big hit (The movie, I mean), I had a friend who had been an army nurse in Korea and hated the movie because she felt it typified the way women were seen and treated by the majority of men there. (To be honest, I'm not sure she was a nurse I think she may have worked for the Red Cross) - the movie made the harassment and humilation of the female nurse permissable because she was portrayed as a hyper-prissy woman (the bit-h model) but my friend said that her treatment was more typical than exceptional.

I think Americans are among the most childish and immature people in the world when it comes to sex - maybe that's what we should try to change.

Martha
Obviously you failed to read the opening paragraph of my post, the first one on the topic. I'll quote it for you here, because I think it answers your question:

"For the purpose of my comment, we must set aside anything serving members of the military have said on this issue, because as the column clearly shows they are effectively muzzled by political correctness."

No serving officer is going to come out and say "Hey, chuckleheads, your entire policy is a balled-up piece of wax". Not if he wants to keep his job.

What ELSE would you expect Pace to say?

What's the subject?
Did anyone read this part of the article? I know it's perfectly fine to go off topic and stay off...but...

"But Pace did not show disrespect for or demean the sacrifice of homosexual service members. In fact, he said he supported the policy, which allows homosexuals to serve, and that it does not make "a judgment about individual acts." In his support for the policy, __it's obvious he believes homosexuals can and do make valuable contributions to the services__."

(Underlining obviously mine.)

To me, this article has nothing to do with whether gay people or women should serve in the military. According to the above paragraph, it's a foregone conclusion.

The topic of the article is PC speech and, I think, free speech. It would probably be fun for all liberals to believe that conservatives won't let liberals say what they want to say, and for all conservatives to believe that liberals won't let conservatives say what they want to say. The fact is, we're all biased and a little (or a lot) self-deceptive.

How about this for an approach?
Say what you want to say, but don't expect the other side to either shut up or agree with you.
In addition, be thankful for the privilege of living in a country where free speech has had a long and glorious history. It's not going away.

Pace's comments would have been inappropriate if he was saying that homosexual behavior was moral, too. But that's all. Just inappropriate, given his capacity. Everyone take a deep breath. He doesn't need to be attacked, but it's all right for other people to express their opinions, too. It's okay if he regrets his choice but, seriously, no one's going to fry him for this.

Oh, and I just need to add...seems like so much of what I read in the sexual orientation posts on TH amounts to graphic descriptions of what people think other people are doing with their bodies. Honestly, I don't get the fascination. I have all I need just thinking about my wonderful husband of more than 25 years. I really don't have time to waste on trying to imagine what everyone else is doing. Plus -- I'm pretty sure I'm accurate on this -- you're way off base. Most gay people's sex is nothing like what you're talking about. I think maybe the misinformation comes from pornography sites, which really don't represent heterosexual sex so well, either.

Your fear that other people might be getting away with something (and it might be fun) is showing.

Martha

Funny how the left loves to decouple
Homosexuality from immorality and patriotism when virtually every homosexual is engaged in lying, cheating, drugs, alcohol and generally self destructuve miserable behavior.

And Pelosi's comments of offense about challenging the "patriotism" of homosexuals is priceless, I cant think of a community more hostile to America & the Constitution, friendly to fascism & Communism than those of her homosexual SF district.

As far as I can tell the only reason "her people" sign up to join the military is to wreck it (or in their minds change it).

How dare you question our patriotism. http://www.the-clearing.org/Photos/Other/030118/01180173.jpg

Dog
Well, your post raises the other issue where the Lefties are using the military as a social experiment, and are WAAAY out of line, again, as usual, and that's the issue of having women serve in combat zones.

I have ALWAYS maintained that that's a huge mistake.

Your post simply proves my point.

When I was in Nam, the only women in-country were nurses in the hospital units, way in the rear with the gear, where the situation could be tightly controlled. Even there, women got pregnant, etc.

Women have no business in the CZ.

Kathy
God, you're dumb!

Obtuse
You're way too naive to think that "gays can control their
> libido when they're around other males." Try cruising a gay
> bar, a park at night or a men's bath house or gay internet
> sites and then try to tell us they can control their libidos!

----------

Actually, I don't have as much experience in those places as you seem to.

blustrmom
This is by no way meant as a slight, but what in the Blue Blazes are we as a nation doing putting women aboard a ship of war?

I'm sure your granddaughter is a fine person, she has already shown that by volunteering her service to her country. On that point please give her my regards and send her my deepest respect.

Now comes that inevetiable "but". Maybe I'm old fashioned, well honestly there's no maybe there, isn't it enough that we as a nation have a need to send our sons into harms way without putting our daughters there? Make no mistake, I admire and respect any person, male or female who steps up and toes the line my problem is the old adage that you don't put the women into the line of fire.

I don't suggest we religate the women to nurses and clerks but there are many positions of stratigic importance that would not require them to be aboard a warship, especially one in hostile waters.

To Obtuse catattack

catattack writes:

> You're way too naive to think that "gays can control their
> libido when they're around other males." Try cruising a gay
> bar, a park at night or a men's bath house or gay internet
> sites and then try to tell us they can control their libidos!

Uh, that's, like, kinda the whole *point* of gay bars and gay
Internet sites. They're no more evidence of an inability of
homosexuals to control their libidos than singles bars and
straight Internet sites are evidence that straights are un-
able to control *their* libidos.

Cripes a'mighty! "There are none so blind as those who will
not see."



-CB-


Kathy
I'm doing you and people like you a favor today by summarizing right-wing quotes from the other thread you were on, having their usual gay-bashing orgy.

Here are the statements that hopefully, summarize your views and will make it unecessary to take up the time and space that you feel you need to say it all again:

“sexual psychopathology's projects his own deadly, deviate, destructive and degenerate self-loathing upon all of the rest of us, Isn't it a shame that faggots are so heterophobic,
Begin writing essays calling for the cleansing and purification of society via the mass murder of homosexuals, this is a type of perversion that cannot be tolerated by society,”
Keep the faggots away from decent people, homosexuality feels like a hugh vulture, snacthing children's innocence,How about bestiality? How about necrophilia?
Just laugh atthe overall irony of someone who likes to plug other dudes in the keister calling someone else vile, They gay guy wakes up and pulls the butt plug out of his mouth???"
HAHAHA!!! You fukking little fairy. I'd beat you like your father should have. I'd knock you straight. Maybe I'll have my wife kick your queeer a-s, the way to gain momentum for their sodomite movement is to divert attention away from the filthy acts of their habitual perversion
Start lobbying your legislature now, and PUSH BACK the evil sodomites....Protect your children!, Fairies like you need to be put in your place, as for Praising Jesus, if you're a homosexual, praise all you want, he doesn't listen unless you repent and turn from your evil’
You silly demented fairy. The AIDS must be rotting your brain, Go to your cellmate and don't forget the rubber sheet and the gerbils!, Hey, what do you call a bouncer in a gay bar?,
you and your sodomite buddies will not get to indoctrinate Zekaryah, Shemu'el or Dawid...My wife and I homeschool ALL of our twelve children (nine girls, three boys)....guess what? NO LAWS to mandate homeschooled children to hear the filthy, nasty, pathetic, sadistic, rancid, putrid message of your clan of evildoers....so, go back to your "battery operated boyfriend" (phrase in quotations compliments of leftismkiller, you keep flapping your ccum receptacle, Hypocritical faggot, this is a type of perversion that cannot be tolerated by society,” liberals support psychotic, violent ideas,all true Conservatives know how to respect other people.

In facct, I think some of these comments are yours.

eI happend to listen
to a woman who has done two tours in Iraq say that the degree of rape and sexual abuse and molestation by members of the US Army against women is so out of control that they (women( have to carry weapons just to use the bathrooms at night.

So maybe the point isn't whether there are gays in the mililtary, maybe the point is that the army is full of misogynistic woman haters who are out of control rapists and molesters. It sounds to me like the gays have more to fear than the other way around, and also, why should these same GIs who, according to the women who have served there, can only view women as "Dikes, Ho's, or B--hes, suddenly be crying that gays are somehow immoral?


eI happend to listen
to a woman who has done two tours in Iraq say that the degree of rape and sexual abuse and molestation by members of the US Army against women is so out of control that they (women( have to carry weapons just to use the bathrooms at night.

So maybe the point isn't whether there are gays in the mililtary, maybe the point is that the army is full of misogynistic woman haters who are out of control rapists and molesters. It sounds to me like the gays have more to fear than the other way around, and also, why should these same GIs who, according to the women who have served there, can only view women as "Dikes, Ho's, or B--hes, suddenly be crying that gays are somehow immoral?


How about lesbians???
The conversation seems to be totally about gay men. What about lebians?? Our granddaughter is serving on the Kitty Hawk (CV63) and she tells us that there are many, many lebians on board, bunking and showering. That is not what she signed on for. Just a thought guys.

Hard Thought

Hard Thought writes:

> Don't ask Don't tell allows gays to serve in the military. Your
> assertion that gays can and will control their libido is wrong.

[older soldiers got younger soldiers drunk and played doctor]

> Tell me again about controlling your libido.


You mentioned ten instances of people being discharged for homosexual
conduct during the course of your twenty-year career. Of those, three
got other soldiers drunk and "had their way" with them. How many sol-
diers do you figure you knew altogether during that long career, both
gay and straight? They had to have numbered in the hundreds, at the
very least.

Given that homosexuals represent anywhere from 2-10% of the population,
depending on whose numbers you buy, it stands to reason that the soldiers
you saw discharged for homosexual misconduct were but a small subset of
the total number of gay soldiers you served with -- the vast majority of
whom did no wrong whatsoever. What you're saying makes no more sense
than the '90s feminist mantra about all men being potential rapists.


-CB-


BTW, Lib
There was a clear distinction in my mind as to the state of "BEING good" and "DOING bad".

One's a state of existence, a quality of human nature; the other's an action.

That's part of the distinction I'm trying to draw.

How many angels on the head of a pin, anyone?

Lib First
Yeah, I guess. I think I didn't articulate it well, and I'll admit it's clearer in my mind than what I wrote. But it's probably irrelevant anyway.

As I said, I agree with you that there are too many attempts at behavior regulation from both sides.

Your Jefferson quote was really on the money. That really is the bottom line. Obviously there have to be some standards and mores, not only so the "natural rights" are understood, but also the pragmatic aspect of preventing anarchy. But overall I think it's pretty much on the money.

Man, have we digressed, or what?!?

re: BrianR
BrianR wrote:

"I know it may be a fine distinction; it's clear in my mind, but I'm not sure I'm articulating it well."

=====

I think I understand what you're saying, to whit...

----------------------------------

"... The difference, though, is that the Left's attempts at behavior regulation try to force people to be something they can't be by nature. To try to force them to BE 'good'..."

=====

I understand where you could get that, but I disagree. (Actually I see this more from the conservative side -- below). Rather, what I see from the left is twofold...

1 ) An effort to eliminate the idea of the individual, substituting the collective for the individual. (This certainly *is* against human nature.) -AND-

2 ) To eliminate the very idea that there *IS* good or bad, thereby making everything permissible and acceptable. And, thus...

... (a) to establish libertine Freedom *WITHOUT* Suffering the Consequences of Poor or Irresponsible Choices.

----------------------------------

"... The Right's attempts are based on the philosophically opposite view that people are by nature predisposed to bad actions, and regulation has to be passed to curb their impulses. It tries to punish them for DOING 'bad'..."

=====

M'kay! I can agree with that. However, the result of punishing people for doing "bad" is, in essence, IMHO, trying to force them to "BE 'good'".

Where I tend to draw the line at is WHAT Conservatives decide is "bad" and, therefore, worthy of being punished. Where politicians, conservative, liberal, or otherwise, restrain themselves to punishing "behavior that *ONLY* trespasses against *OTHERS*, I have no problem with it.

However, when politicians begin punishing conduct that *ONLY* transgresses against *their* particular deity, the definition of "bad" goes from an objective measure of aggression committed against the Equal Rights of others (ie: "criminal") to a subjective measure as defined by religious texts and interpretted by priests (ie: "sinful").

I agree with you for the most part. Perhaps it is a matter of muddled communication. What I see, however, is the Left attempting to relinquish us from the burden of responsibility for our actions. And, while the Right certainly does attempt to, to a degree, enforce responsibility, the Right often takes it too far, IMHO.

There is a difference between holding people accountable/responsible for crimes against others *AND* holding them accountable/responsible for crimes against God.


Thus, I lean towards Jefferson's wisdom...
"No man has the natural right to commit aggression against the Equal Rights of others and this is all from which the Law ought to restrain him."

Its very simple. Nearly every political movement -- right, left, moderate, conservative, liberal, socialist, and even the Libertarian party (to a degree) -- supports and/or proposes violating that very simple and libertarian principle of governance in order to impose or establish *their* particular utopia.

And I personally believe that Jefferson's principle ought to be a qualifying question for every piece of legislature dealing with civil discourse:
"Does the conduct in question commit aggression against the Equal Rights of others?" If the answer is "no", the legislation ought to be summarily dismissed with prejudice.

I think a better example
would be "hate crimes" a darling idea of the Left.

To the Right, a crime is a crime. To the Left, somehow they can divine what is in the perp's mind, and that makes it worse. They try to add internal motivation into the mix, rather than confine the issue to the actual actions of the perp.

So, a white guy who beats up a black guy has somehow committed a more heinous action than if he'd beat up another white guy.

As far as I'm concerned, that is an egregiously absurd position. Themis (the statue of Blind Justice) is, after all, wearing a blindfold. But this is lost on the Left.

Don't ask, don't tell
If the policy is don't ask, don't tell, how in the world do they know that there are 65,000 homosexuals in the military /

Liberty First
Though we agree in principle, I think there's a difference in a bit of the philosophy.

I'll preface by saying that I don't believe in the Right's predilection toward regulating behavior, either. On this we agree.

The difference, though, is that the Left's attempts at behavior regulation try to force people to be something they can't be by nature. To try to force them to BE "good".

The Right's attempts are based on the philosophically opposite view that people are by nature predisposed to bad actions, and regulation has to be passed to curb their impulses. It tries to punish them for DOING "bad".

It's the difference between thinking Man can achieve purity, and acknowledging that Man is irredeemably flawed.

The Left's efforts are aimed at changing the whole society by trying to legislate human nature. The Right's efforts are aimed at making individuals responsible for their own actions.

I know it may be a fine distinction; it's clear in my mind, but I'm not sure I'm articulating it well.

re: BrianR
BrianR wrote:

"As I was thinking about it, I kinda came to the conclusion the lib policy proposals are all based on a refusal to acknowledge the reality of human nature. They think that by passing some law, they can mold people into what they (the libs) want them to be in some ideal world that can never exist in reality. It's a sort of blind utopianism.

"Incredibly naive, if not downright stupid."

=====

I agree. However, in all fairness, the same can also be said for Conservatives (particularly of the evangelical-type) -- re: drugs, gambling, porn, homo-vs-heterosexuality, prostitution, basically, *their* definitions of "moral"-vs-"immoral".

The real difference between libs and conservatives, however, is their ideal of how they *think* people *should* be or *should* behave. Personally, I believe *NEITHER*, nor anyone else for that matter, has any business attempting to usurp the power of government to impose *their* ideals upon others, to engage in their particular breeds of social engineering.




ASIDE: I personally disagree with the General and, generally, most conservatives. I do not believe there is *ANYTHING* immoral in ANY MANNER of consensual conduct between free, consenting adults, including but not limited to homosexuality, prostitution, and even adultery (where *ALL* parties are consenting, ie: "swinging").

However, just because I don't believe it is immoral, that does not, necessarily mean that I believe it is proper or appropriate in every venue.

The morality arguments aside, the fact of the matter is that gender integrated units and homosexuals in same-gender units *cause* MORE problems than they "solve" in the military. I, personally, do not believe that homosexual conduct is immoral. However, the military is *NOT* the place for it (re: "Time and Place for everything...).


re: BrianR
BrianR wrote:

"... Absolutely, I agree with you, that is the main point. That's why I raised it as the key issue in the first post on this column. It's the elephant in the room that the libs constantly try to ignore..."

=====

I apologize for the ambiguous format of my last post. I understand that you agree with me. The second part, my "points", as intended to be addressed to All... specifically, to those who don't get it. =)

-----------------------

"... Unfortunately, I don't see a solution to the problem. You can't put all the gays into a 'gay' barracks. Can you imagine what THAT would be like?..."

====

Hmmm... Kinda like puttin' all the straight folk (men AND women) into a "straight" barracks... "Party all the time! Party all the time!!" *ESPECIALLY* in our military's culture of permanent-adoloscence!


But, we had our own suggestions when Clinton was doing his "research"... It was already a well established "fact" (/wink) that 300 sailors set sail aboard a submarine and 150 couples return. So, we figured, what we oughta do is paint all of our submarines yellow and pink and make 'em homo-only. As it is, subs are already outa-sight... that could put 'em outa-mind too =D

Libert First
As I was thinking about it, I kinda came to the conclusion the lib policy proposals are all based on a refusal to acknowledge the reality of human nature. They think that by passing some law, they can mold people into what they (the libs) want them to be in some ideal world that can never exist in reality. It's a sort of blind utopianism.

Incredibly naive, if not downright stupid.

How's this for ruining cohesiveness?

baseballdoc
The "hate" part of the hate crime is thought crime. It is based on what you may have been thinking. By the way, hate crimes are not universally enforced. Just another club to beat "Whitey with." Love your moniker. Can't wait for baseball to start.

To more accurately answer vesepant, what we are talking is not necessarily being jailed. It's having your career ruined by not towing the politically correct line. Trent Lott verbally pats an old man on the head and this is extrapolated into Lott being for segregation and being a racist. Lost his leadership position and was nearly run out of town. Now, Robert "KKK" Byrd can actually use the "N" word, former member of the clan, and gets a pass.

Liberty First
Absolutely, I agree with you, that is the main point. That's why I raised it as the key issue in the first post on this column. It's the elephant in the room that the libs constantly try to ignore.

Unfortunately, I don't see a solution to the problem. You can't put all the gays into a "gay" barracks. Can you imagine what THAT would be like?

Yikes!

Creighton Beryll: Real Life Experiences
Don't ask Don't tell allows gays to serve in the military. Your assertion that gays can and will control their libido is wrong.

Let me explain why.

I served twenty years in the Army and saw at least ten individuals discharged for homosexuality. Every one of them made improper advances to another service member. But the real problem is not just the advances, it is the playing on young soldier's insecurity.

In at least three of the instances the homosexual service member would get the non-homosexual member drunk and then have their way with them.

Some people used their position of rank to make it seem like the non-homosexual partner had no choice.

One instance had a senior member go downtow and appear drunk. He would ask someone to help him back to his barracks and then ask them to stay to make sure he didn't get sick and drown in it. When the young would fall aslee, the senior member would assault the young soldier.

When this came to light because the senior member got beaten by a young soldier who wasn't going to take it and pressed charges, at least seven other soldiers came forward who had been assaulted in the same manner. This caused chaos in the unit and took over six months to settle down.

Tell me again about controlling your libido.

typos
downtown not downtow
asleep not aslee

re: BrianR and all
BrianR: Thanks =)



The points I have been trying to demonstrate is that:

a ) Homosexuals in the military is *far* different than gender integrated units. Gender integrated units do not share the same berthings/barracks or the same bathing facilities.

Homosexuals, on the other hand, *do* share the *EXACT* same sleeping and bathing facilities as their same-gender compatriots.

b ) Heterosexuals in integrated units *already* have a hard enough time restraining their urges, *ESPECIALLY* when deployed away from their home port / base.

How many more problems would there be if they *DID* share the same sleeping and bathing facilities?

And you really expect us to believe that homosexuals have that much MORE self-control than these heterosexuals?

Creighton Beryll: Real Life Experiences
Don't ask Don't tell allows gays to serve in the military. Your assertion that gays can and will control their libido is wrong.

Let me explain why.

I served twenty years in the Army and saw at least ten individuals discharged for homosexuality. Every one of them made improper advances to another service member. But the real problem is not just the advances, it is the playing on young soldier's insecurity.

In at least three of the instances the homosexual service member would get the non-homosexual member drunk and then have their way with them.

Some people used their position of rank to make it seem like the non-homosexual partner had no choice.

One instance had a senior member go downtow and appear drunk. He would ask someone to help him back to his barracks and then ask them to stay to make sure he didn't get sick and drown in it. When the young would fall aslee, the senior member would assault the young soldier.

When this came to light because the senior member got beaten by a young soldier who wasn't going to take it and pressed charges, at least seven other soldiers came forward who had been assaulted in the same manner. This caused chaos in the unit and took over six months to settle down.

Tell me again about controlling your libido.

Liberty First: Good point!
I've forgotten where I read it, but there was actually a report on a survey result that indicated that when ships were getting ready to deploy, there was some absurd percentage of the women swabbies who had to first be reassigned due to pregnancies.

re: Happy Jake
Happy Jake wrote:

"... Straight men would have trouble controling their libidos if they were in a locker room full of decent-looking women, especially single, unattached straight men (or those that don't care about marriage or relationships)..."

======

They don't even have to share a locker room and the women don't even have to be decent-looking. Just being women is often enough.


As of my time in service ('92 - '93) the Navy had a number of gender integrated commands. However, *NONE* of those commands were fully integrated, not even the ships. The women had their own berthings and/or barracks and used separate facilities for bathing and such.

*YET*, sexual misconduct, *ESPECIALLY* aboard ships that are underway was, and I wager still is, rampant. Particularly aboard deployed ships, fidelity was rarely a problem for men and women looking for hook-ups. It was, and probably is not, uncommon for officers to share their staterooms with enlisted partners. During my term of service, circa '94, there was actually a Captain relieved of his command for his propensity for taking young ladies fresh from Apprenticeship Training and giving them special privileges as his "love pets". (One gal blew the whistle after he dumped her for a "fresher" piece of split-tail.)

It was not uncommon for women, even married women, to suppliment their meager sailors' salary by prostituting themselves while deployed. Nevermind the sheer number of women that would buckle under the stress of extended deployment and *intentionally* get pregnant in order to be sent back stateside.


And this stuff never gets reported... unless it's a huge political scandal like Tailgate... *because* it would bring embarassment to the military.

Segregation
I wonder how many of the lesbians out there who advocate homo men sharing showers with straight guys would want straight guys showering with lesbos.

Ridiculous
The liberals fail to see how homosexuality makes others feel. Or else they just don't care. What I fail to see is how in the hell the smallest minority in this country's population, let alone the world's population succeeds in holding us hostage. Quite frankly I'm wondering if we should have ever let them out of the closet. It certainly hasn't had the most positive impact on our civilzation. Despite this I know some very nice gays and really do feel sorry for them. I just can't see where their behavoir is beneficial to the world as a whole. Oddly enough, I do not know one gay in support of gay marriage. I support General Pace. Period!

Teenmomma, spadeshovel
Teenmomma: The services already -- and always have -- disallowed criminals and uneducated or low IQ people from joining. And again, like Creighton, you've used the specious analogy to racial equality in your post. Congratulations on your abyssal ignorance of things military.

Spadeshovel: Your discussion of friendships among gays and straights is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. Lots of people have friendships... with people with whom they are NOT LIVING. A key distinction that seems to have escaped your attention.

re: Creighton Beryll
Creighton Beryll wrote:

"...

> Even if the gay person does control themselves, how
> comfortable are the others in the barracks going to be
> when they know Joe's gay, and is getting an eyeful in
> the shower every day?

Many of them, probably not very. If so, they should get
over it. Doesn't it strike you as absurd that the same
guys who are unafraid to face combat would act like a
bunch of squealing little girly-men when it comes to the
idea of someone seeing them nekkid in the shower, of all
things? You'd think such 'men' were pubescent boys taking
their first group shower in 7th grade P.E., for crying out
loud.

..."

======

Let's see... Boot camp, RTC (Recruit Training Center) Orlando circa June '92...

There was a recruit in my company who was quite effeminate and very shy. So much so that most anyone's "gaydar" would march off scale. Yet, there was no *evidence* that he was homosexual. (Based upon his girlfriend whom I met and his demonstrations of affection for her, I, personally, doubt that he was, but...) Regardless, many of the recruits in our company *assumed* he was gay.

Now, our showers were communal and, unlike some locker-room showers where the showerheads are on the wall, ours were on a "tree". The shower "tree" was a post in the middle of the room with about eight shower heads radiating out of it. That forced us to stand and face each other while we showered.

There was an incident one afternoon after PT. The "gay" recruit, out of shyness, had a habit of keeping his eyes averted (lowered toward the ground) while showering. One of the more macho (and homophobic) recruits thought the "gay" recruit was oggling him.

Mr. Macho asked, "why're you looking at my c---, qu--r? What? You wanna suck it? Huh!? Well... you can suck this!"

... and then he proceded to beat the hapless, allegedly gay recruit mercilessly. It took five of us to drag him off his victim who spent the next two days in medical for treatment.


There was no disciplinary action taken against Mr. Macho *except* to be ordered to two days of early morning IT (intensive training... sort of a corporal punishment consisting an hour of grueling calastenics and exercises).


Maybe you're right. Maybe they *should* just get over it. But what they *should* do and what *actually* happens are two different things. Considering the nature of the military, you cannot make policy (like this) based upon what *should* be rather than what *is*.

Creighton Beryl
Once again you liberals never answer questions, you just make statements that have nothing to do with it.

Yes, we know there are dudes who are most likely gay. We avoid them. They're effeminate. In short, they don't belong in a warrior culture. If there are "normal" acting gay dudes, then they take part in the normal guy rituals, of emasculating the other guys around you, which includes and heavily rely on calling each other a p*ssy, a f*g, and everything else you can believe. There's nothing more unmanly a guy can do than to dig another guy, so that is our primary way of ribbing each other so to speak.

You'd see it in our women in you could bring yourself to serve, as it is very difficult for them to be ladylike, yet be one of the guys. It's a very fine line to walk, which is why I think a lot of them are mental.

Cheers,

Skip

Gay and Straights Cant be Friends
Based upon some of these posts - the mind set is that straight men and women can never be friends with lesbians or gay men.

Why? If a straight man has a gay male friend then "secretly" the gay lust for that staight man. It is just a matter of time.

Same goes for starigh women with lesbian friends.

Does anyone see the stupidity in this thought process. That is like saying staight mena nd women cant be freinds becuase eventualy one wil lust for the other. Most likly the amn since he doesnt seem able to control his libido.

I once has a friend ask me (st8) ask me if I found him attractiev, my answer was yes you are handsome, but your not my type.

Just as a staight man can see a pretty woman and recognize thier beauty - doesnt mean he wants to put the stones to her.

GROW UP AMERICA

Creighton Beryll
Straight men would have trouble controling their libidos if they were in a locker room full of decent-looking women, especially single, unattached straight men (or those that don't care about marriage or relationships).

We're supposed to believe that gay men are just like straight men except for their preference of partners and their greater ability to control themselves?

Somehow that doesn't sound right to me.

Creighton: very facile...
... and not at all realistic. Sorry. Let's take a look.

"There are plenty of reasons why an individual might not be welcome in a barracks environment: substandard performance or having a reputation as a thief or a squealer come to mind. A unit's finding out that one of its number was any
of those things would certainly constitute an unfulfilled expectation. And those things do happen -- but life goes on."

Yes, without the offender. Thieves and underperformers are removed from the service. Period. But not gays; they're protected by law now.

Regarding my question about how comfortable troops would be knowing they're being ogled in the shower, you reply: "Many of them, probably not very. If so, they should get over it."

I see. What a total avoidance of the issue on your part. First of all, you advocate the tail wagging the dog. Secondly, you are in essence saying "hey, forget human nature. TS!"

You really lost a lot of credibility with that thoughtless answer, and it is simply soooo reflective of the typical lib mindset.

You continue: "As long as all the guy did was look and not try to touch, why should it bother me?"

I see. Do you also make it a habit to walk around in "co-ed" surroundings buck naked? If not, why not? That would be the intellectually consistent behavior I would expect.

Aaah, perhaps because it violated societal mores.

Moving on: "Just as lots of people make the comparison to racial integration, lots of other people say it's a faulty analogy. But curiously,
none of the latter people ever seem to let the other shoe drop and say why not. Care to take a crack at it?"

Sure, and it's very simple. Race is simply a matter of appearance. Homosexuality is a behavior. We don't discriminate against people with blue eyes, either. However, there are all kinds of consequences a person must face based on their actions and behavior.

Any other questions?

catattack - Pretty General

"You're way too naive to think that "gays can control their libido when they're around other males." Try cruising a gay bar, a park at night or a men's bath house or gay internet sites and then try to tell us they can control their libidos! "

Catattack -
Well have you ever seen a spring break news reels, or straight swinger clubs, or straight internet sites? Have you ever been to a staight dance club with people crusing for a one-nite-stand? Isnt that the pot calling the ketttle black?

Please do not elivate straights male or female to this pinnical of false purity. If I where to generalize staight women or men to the public exploits of Paris Hilton, Briteny Spears, and any other number of celeberties or politicians "newt Gingrich, Bill Clinton etc" that "flaunty" thier sexuality and libidos.

Dont Ask Dont Tell needs to GO. If people cannot serevr in the armed forcves for "immoral behavior" then we need to let go the following for immoral behavior;

Fornicators - (yep all those restrained libidos out for a night on the town "looking to get some"

Drunkard - Yep - drinking to execess is immoral.

Adulterers - Yep, sleeping with your buddies wife is immoral, but lets not forget those who divorce and remarry they are also adulterers...btw does this apply to the commanders in chief?


I would love to see the other statitics of "adulters" being dismissed from the services in comparision to gays.



re: Creighton Beryll
Creighton Beryll wrote:

"... Umm, because gays should have the same right to serve their country just like anybody else has?

'... The Pledge of Allegiance says '..with liberty and justice for all.' What part of 'all' don't you understand?..."

=====

First, serving the military is *NOT* a Right. It is a *PRIVILEGE*. Many, MANY people are DENIED the privilege to serve for a myriad of reasons. If it were a Right, then those folks could NOT be denied for any reason, not even age, weight, education (or lack thereof), or condition of disability. Yet, they are. (So much for "all", huh?)


Second, as I pointed out to BrianR, when you join the military you abdicate your "liberty and justice for all" and accept what liberty the military grants you and justice under the UCMJ.

Creighton
There is nothing what so ever that prevents a homosexual from serving in the United States military. There is however a rule against openly performing homosexual acts and exhibiting homosexual behavior while in the military. There are also rules against perfomrming some heterosexual acts and exhibiting heterosexual behavior specifically when it applies to enlisted personnel and commisioned officers, this is generally frowned upon also.

As to your quote from the Pledge of Allegiance, just what part of liberty or justice are being denied? If you wish to serve in the military you are being asked to conduct yourself in a specific manner. If you cannot find it in yourself to do so you are free to find employment in the private sector where your openly homosexual lifestyle cannot by law be used against your employment.

to naive Creighton Beryll
You're way too naive to think that "gays can control their libido when they're around other males." Try cruising a gay bar, a park at night or a men's bath house or gay internet sites and then try to tell us they can control their libidos!

re: Creighton Beryll
Creighton Beryll wrote:

"... I don't understand this tacit assumption that gays are unable to control their libido when they're around other males in a barracks environment. Don't you think _they_ know that 'most if not all' of their fellow soldiers aren't gay? Do you really think they'd go to the trouble of joining the military, only to risk ostracism, beating, or discharge by making unwelcome advances to any of their peers?..."

======

Purely anecdotal. Take it for what you will.

During the Roosevelt's Med. Deployment in '93 we had "a man overboard" in the middle of the night one night. He was never recovered.

The official report is that he was a flightdeck crewman and was blown overboard by "jet wash". (The problem with that story is no planes were being launched, trapped, or moved at the time he was allegedly blown overboard. There were no active jet engines to blow him overboard.)

There was, of course, never any *real* evidence of what happened. Nobody saw him *go* overboard. A lookout on the fantail spotted him in the water and signaled the alert.

There *was* a lot of speculation, however. That crewman was a *known* "groper" and had been to Captain's Mast (non-judicial punishment) three times already.

"Groper" is a Navy slang term. It refers to someone who sneaks into other berthings at night and, as the name suggests, gropes sleeping shipmates.

I have no evidence that he was *thrown* overboard for his activities. However, he *had* just been charged (within the prior 24 hours) of another incident of groping *AND* Navy "justice" can sometimes be brutal.


Why, pray tell, would the Navy have a term for this kind of pervert if, "they" would *NOT* "...go to the trouble of joining the military, only to risk ostracism, beating, or discharge by making unwelcome advances to any of their peers"? If they are so discrete, why a term for *that* particular indiscretion??

------------------------

"... That was the conventional wisdom when the armed forces were integrated, too. And yet, the armed forces managed to suck it up, deal with it, and move on. And in the process, to grow up a bit..."

======

Name *ONE* unit that is *fully* "integrated" where men and women share the same barracks/berthings and bathing facilities. The difference here is that homosexuals are *completely* integrated. They *share* the *same* sleeping quarters, the same heads, and the same showers.


By they way, there are numerous "integrated" ships in the Navy. And (as of the time of *my* service -- '92 - '95) *every* one of those ships had a reputation (though some had "bigger" reputations than others). Integrated ships were rampant with fraternization, "sexual harassment", prostitution, and all kinds of soap-opera issues that result from boy-meets-girl, boy-bangs-girl, boy-meets-another-girl, girl-gets-jealoous, vice versa, and etcetera.


Just because you don't see or hear the problems, that does not mean that there aren't any.


vespanat
You asked for an example of a victim of the thought police.

Last year, a story came out (commented on in several columns by Mike Adams on this site last April) about a school librarian and student at the Mansfield Campus of the Ohio State University. This student included on a list of books recommended to incoming freshmen "The Marketing of Evil" by David Kupelian. The book is critical of homosexuality in general and the Gay "Rights" movement in particular (among other leftist, anti-moral movements). An openly gay professor at the university -- which professor had never actually interacted with the student -- charged the librarian with sexual harassment solely for promoting this unenlightened (the prof. actually uses the word "enlightenment" in an e-mail) work to impressionable minds.

Tell me where the Professor is in the right on this.

Here's a link to one of the columns http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MikeSAdams/2006/04/18/the_intellectual_rape_of_scott_savage

HJG

BrianR

BrianR writes:

> It is not an issue of discretion. Theoretically, you could
> put opposite sexes in the same barracks and expect them to
> "control their libido". However, the world is full of
> unfulfilled expectations, my friend.

There are plenty of reasons why an individual might not be
welcome in a barracks environment: substandard performance
or having a reputation as a thief or a squealer come to
mind. A unit's finding out that one of its number was any
of those things would certainly constitute an unfulfilled
expectation. And those things do happen -- but life goes
on.


> Even if the gay person does control themselves, how
> comfortable are the others in the barracks going to be
> when they know Joe's gay, and is getting an eyeful in
> the shower every day?

Many of them, probably not very. If so, they should get
over it. Doesn't it strike you as absurd that the same
guys who are unafraid to face combat would act like a
bunch of squealing little girly-men when it comes to the
idea of someone seeing them nekkid in the shower, of all
things? You'd think such "men" were pubescent boys taking
their first group shower in 7th grade P.E., for crying out
loud.


> You're comfortable with that? I wouldn't be in that
> situation.

As long as all the guy did was look and not try to touch,
why should it bother me? I was walking around in (where
else?) San Francisco one summer day, wearing shorts. An
obviously quite gay guy walking the other way on the side-
walk exclaimd, "Niiiice legs!" Far from feeling threatened
or being disgusted, I thought it was hilarious. The guy was
right out of Central Casting. And after all, he'd paid me
a compliment in his way. Maybe a lot of guys need to learn
not to take themselves so bloody seriously.


> Also, you're attempt at an analogy with racial integration
> is faulty, though commonly used when discussion gay issues,
> such as gay marriage, etc. Race and sexual orientation have
> nothing in common; sorry.

Just as lots of people make the comparison to racial integration,
lots of other people say it's a faulty analogy. But curiously,
none of the latter people ever seem to let the other shoe drop
and say why not. Care to take a crack at it?

For my part, I'd say what both situations boil down to is one
group of guys not wanting to share living quarters with another
group of guys. The details (race or sexual orientation) are
immaterial.


-CB-


Anyone seen The Dragon?
There are a couple of articles dealing with this subject just today and not one word from Celtic Dragon. Very uncharacteristic. Would have thought he would weigh in on this, hope all is well. Even though he gets very passionate on this subject his view points are quite insightful.

Immorality?
Immorality: the quality of not being in accord with standards of right or good conduct;

The term is nothing more than "normal." What is "normal" in any society. Immorality is whatever the society's majority claim it to be. A genius is abnormal. A person who doesn't hold with the same beliefs of any society is immoral or abnormal.

81% of the people of this nation claim to be Christians. The Bible says homosexuality, adultery, fornication, lying, stealing, etc. are wrong. If the society beliefs the Bible, then all those things would be frowned on or even outlawed and thus, any behavior that deviates from that standard is immoral.

If you go into a society that has child sacrifice on the alter of a god, then making that sacrifice is moral. Headhunters were moral. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were moral to them, immoral to Lot's God.

As a society, we were created to have many societies. Each state was a separate society with different morality, standards, laws, customs, traditions, etc. The morality may have similar except the "morality" of "slavery," but, there were certainly difference.

Today, under socialism we are attempting to make the whole nation one culture, one morality. That may seem "fair," but, because human nature being what it is, it always weakens a nation when people lose their choice to live among like-minded people under a state constitution that limits what the majority can do.

Also, all people, in or out of uniform should be encouraged to speak openly and freely about these issues. However, that should be also part of the criteria for promotion. You should promote a person based on the entire person, not just some aspect of them. If you want a "moral" military that doesn't torture, abuse soldiers, act unethically, violate treaties or cease-fires, etc. you need to promote "moral" people. But, since morality is determined by the majority, then you need to know what that person to be promoted really thinks.

Why would anyone want a general that didn't speak openly about his views since those views are going to, one way or another, be reflected in how he carries out his job. That is true of a politician. Hillary Clinton was interviewed either Yesterday or the day before by Bloomberg news. She was honest and open, as she should be, if running for President.
quote:
Clinton also said she disagrees with the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, Marine General Peter Pace, who said this week that he believes homosexuality is immoral. She said she heard from a number of people who wanted clarification on her position after she initially told ABC News that the issue of morality was one for ``others to conclude.''

``I disagree with General Pace completely,'' Clinton said today. ``I don't think homosexuality is immoral.''
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid
=aP308Axf.U7g
=========================

I don't support Hillary for President but, it is nice to see someone take a firm stand on her beliefs. I also respect General Pace for being honest about his beliefs. We need more "honest" people and a nation where all people are free to voice their personal beliefs on all subjects.

Lib First
Excellent points; thanks for the clarification.

Yeah, I had to laugh when you wrote about Clinton's disdain for the lowly EM. I'm sure they were so far beneath his radar that it never occurred to him that they were actually human beings. After all, how much could they possibly contribute to his campaign/retirement funds?

re: BrianR
BrianR wrote:

"... The Supreme Court has ruled that the military is a unique sector of our [society] to which not all Constitutional guarantees apply, because of the obvious need for special discipline, etc..."

===

I was serving in the Navy when the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy was "researched" and established.

[I was serving onboard the USS Theordore Roosevelt, CVN-71, when Clinton performed some of his "research". I use quotes because, though the visit was ostensibly to view how we (meaning the average sailors) lived aboard ship, Clinton only visited officers' staterooms. It was hardly enlightened him to the living conditions of us, lowly, elistees. BTW, more than anything is was his arrogance. Lowly elistees were too beneath him to be bothered with much less exposed to their living conditions. But I digress...]

You are absolutely right, thoubh, about how average sailors in confined quarters (far more "intimate" settings than you average barracks) reacted towards being berthed with a known homosexual.


Also, I wanted to make a quick note about Constitutional guarantees and rights, etcetera. It's a bit more complex than just the obvious need for discipline and the military being a unique sector. When someone enlists, they *voluntarily* sign a contract that effectively abdicates their Constitutional Rights and Guarantees and (voluntarily) places them under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

It is not entirely unique. Employees sign their "rights away" all them time with their employment contracts. They abdicate the right, for instance, to dress how they want to dress at work, to say what they want to say at work, and etcetera. The difference, is that military personnel are *always* at work *AND* they abdicate a far greater measure of their rights.

Either way, though, it is still voluntary. Enlistees *choose* to give up certain Constitutional Protections as a condition of their service.

Charlie

Charlie writes:

> Whether you believe homosexuality is immoral or not, you
> cannot deny open homosexuality poses serious problems in
> the armed forces.

I don't deny that it can. I deny that it has to.


> There has always been, and always will be a substantial
> portion of the straight population who literally cannot
> stand the idea of a homosexual making a pass at them.

Why do you take it for granted that a gay man *would* make
a pass at any of his fellow soldiers, necessarily?


> More often than not, the result is violence between the
> parties involved in the act.

It stands to reason that any gay man living in a barracks
environment would be the very embodiment of discretion for
that very reason, and would restrict his dalliances to his
off-time away from base. If the odd one fails to do so, well,
lapses in judgment are hardly unique to homosexuals, right?


> Unless you are a liberal who wants the American military
> to lose, why would you want to burden our soldiers anymore
> than is necessary?

Umm, because gays should have the same right to serve their
country just like anybody else has?

"The Pledge of Allegiance says '..with liberty and justice
for all.' What part of 'all' don't you understand?"

--Rep. Pat Schroeder (D) Colorado

(She may be a Democrat but she hit that particular nail right
square on the head.)


-CB-

Loggin Leery

Loggin Leery writes:

> If I was in a platoon and I knew there was a homosexual, it
> would definitely make a difference in how I looked at the
> mission.


Then you'd be unfit to be in that platoon -- or *any* platoon
-- in the first place.

"You *are* the weakest link!"


-CB-


Creighton
I'll accept that you also have the experience and don't see the problem. Let me enlighten you, because you also overlooked my point of the military not bunking men and women in the same barracks.

It is not an issue of discretion. Theoretically, you could put opposite sexes in the same barracks and expect them to "control their libido". However, the world is full of unfulfilled expectations, my friend.

Even if the gay person does control themselves, how comfortable are the others in the barracks going to be when they know Joe's gay, and is getting an eyeful in the shower every day?

You're comfortable with that? I wouldn't be in that situation. That kind of personal discomfort has a huge impact on unit cohesion and morale.

Also, you're attempt at an analogy with racial integration is faulty, though commonly used when discussion gay issues, such as gay marriage, etc. Race and sexual orientation have nothing in common; sorry.

Again, the military is NOT the place for social experimentation. The possible repurcussions are too dire.

Loggin'Leery

Loggin Leery writes:

> Let's say a, (uh, what?s politically correct today, homo,
> qu(ee)r, butt bandit, opposite sex challenged?),

I understand that "rootslurper" is this season's insulting term.


> gets a hard time

Ya gotta love the unintentional homoeroticism this topic always
manages to trigger in fine, upstanding (whoops!) heterosexual
manly-men. Reminds me of the time Ben Shapiro wrote that he
was "tired of the gay agenda being forced down my throat."
(I sent him email complimenting him on his turn of phrase.)


> from one of his buds in the platoon because of his sexual
> preference. Will he still be as likely to protect him as he
> would say, another of his orientated brothers sharing his bunk?

Seems to me that you have things the wrong way around. The problem
in your scenario isn't that the first soldier is gay. It's that the
second soldier is bigoted and makes an issue of the first soldier's
sexual orientation.

The smart (not to mention righteous) thing for the second soldier
to do would be to keep his misgivings to himself, and maybe even
try to outgrow them. That would be better for unit cohesion, and
quite possibly better for his personal safety on the battlefield.

Of course, I don't really believe that a soldier, whether gay or
straight, would really be any more or less likely to protect a
fellow soldier in battle based on his or the other guy's sexual
orientation. They'd all have far more important priorities to
deal with in such a situation, don't you think? Whether gay or
not, one's fellow soldier is still one's fellow soldier and not
the enemy.


> The same thing goes for a man and a woman. A soldier might take
> chances that would endanger the whole operation if she were in
> danger, correct? After all, chivalry is not dead, at least not
> in my universe.

It so happens that I served on the first American military vessel
to have women embarked as permanent crewmembers. It was no big
deal. In fact, I kept forgetting that our situation on the so-
called "love boat" wasn't the norm at the time.


> But of course this doesn?t matter to the PC crowd. All they see
> is discrimination. There is no other way to look at it. They have
> already made up their minds, and BY GOD that?s all there is to it.
> Right lefties?

Oh, the irony!

"Physician, heal thyself."



-CB-

Kathy

Kathy writes:

> Gay men should not be allowed or permitted to bunk, shower
> or share in what is a real man's duty of protecting america.


And what would _you_ know about what constitutes "a real man's
duty," li'l lady? Not being a man yourself, real or otherwise,
I mean?

"I'm more man than you'll ever be -- and more woman than you'll
ever have!" -- old queen's retort


-CB-


BrianR

BrianR writes:

> I have yet to see anyone support the policy of gays in
> the military who has actually lived in a barracks
> environment.

[raises hand]

Well, there's a first time for everything, eh, Brian? Glad
to be of assistance.


> We don't bunk men and women together in the same barracks,
> for obvious reasons. Well, those same reasons still apply
> when you stick a gay person into a barracks setting with
> others of the same sex, most if not all of whom aren't gay.

I don't understand this tacit assumption that gays are unable
to control their libido when they're around other males in a
barracks environment. Don't you think _they_ know that "most
if not all" of their fellow soldiers aren't gay? Do you really
think they'd go to the trouble of joining the military, only to
risk ostracism, beating, or discharge by making unwelcome
advances to any of their peers?


> This is a huge problem for unit cohesion, which is of paramount
> importance in the military.

That was the conventional wisdom when the armed forces were
integrated, too. And yet, the armed forces managed to suck
it up, deal with it, and move on. And in the process, to
grow up a bit.


-CB-

Cookie

.....How about thought crimes? .....COLOSSUS

vespanat
How about "hate crimes."

In the old days---
Mine was not a volunteer Army. It seems to me if a person-male or female-of whatever sexual persuasion--enters the service today and does not know the policy of "don't-----" simply can not read and should not be acepted. To me the true "outrage' is the Congress debating whether or not to support the Troops in Iraq---talk about IMMORAL------

Victory is top priority
Victory on the battlefield is the number priority for most Americans. Whether you believe homosexuality is immoral or not, you cannot deny open homosexuality poses serious problems in the armed forces. There has always been, and always will be a substantial portion of the straight population who literally cannot stand the idea of a homosexual making a pass at them. More often than not, the result is violence between the parties involved in the act. The military, whose sole purpose is to win wars, cannot take a chance. Less than optimum efficiency in the battlefield will jeopardize the lives of the soldiers and the safety of Americans at home.

Unless you are a liberal who wants the American military to lose, why would you want to burden our soldiers anymore than is necessary? While they are focusing on the mission at hand, they shouldn’t have to worry about the guy next to him in the fox hole in the middle of the night.

Leave social experiments to the private sector.

drolmorg
Don't buy that I'm afraid. Yes people might scream their disapproval at what someone has said but I have yet to hear of someone being imprisoned for their views.
Please could you give me an example of a victim of the thought police.

As An Observer...
..from across the pond can one of you tell me what has actually happened to General Pace following his proclomation? Is his job at risk, is he subject to arrest or have people merely criticised his stance, something a marine could take in his stride I'm sure.
This whole 'you can't say (insert blank here)" is most times nonsense. I would have though tin the US you can, as you can here in Blighty, say pretty much what you want.
To Loggin Leery, just wondering whther you had every indulged in oral s*x? An unnatural act in my book!!

Hmm
I never looked at the bunking issue...As I have posted before...A former Platoon SSG said everyday,how he didn't want she-in'/she-in' or he-in'/he-in' in his barracks.
Somehow, I err on the naive side of this...in that if there is a don't ask, don't tell, then one would hope there would be discretion. Also, I do believe in a combat situation, one is not going to have the time to worry about getting some, but rather saving it,effeminate or not. I have served with homosexual men and women...The women do seem to be a bit tougher than your "girly-man" but, again if they are perfroming duties as proscribed and the unit is strack, leave it. There are plaenty of straight troublemakers, too.

One other thing
If I was in a platoon and I knew there was a homosexual, it would definitely make a difference in how I looked at the mission.

Does this count at all to you liberal morons? It is HUMAN NATURE! Most homos I know are anything but masculine. Although, I have to admit, I only know of 2, and they are certainly not my friends, don’t get me wrong, as far as I know they are nice guys, but I certainly wouldn’t want them defending my backside in a fight! Homosexuality IS NOT NATURAL! Nothing you say will ever make me believe it is.

Get a clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BrianR writes:
"We don't bunk men and women together in the same barracks, for obvious reasons."

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!

How is it the left fail to realize this?

Even though I agree wholeheartedly with Pace, after all your butt has a hole where things are supposed to come out, not the other way around, it is dangerous to put men into a situation where emotion could dictate their behavior during combat.

Let’s say a, (uh, what’s politically correct today, homo, qu(ee)r, butt bandit, opposite sex challenged?), gets a hard time from one of his buds in the platoon because of his sexual preference. Will he still be as likely to protect him as he would say, another of his orientated brothers sharing his bunk? The same thing goes for a man and a woman. A soldier might take chances that would endanger the whole operation if she were in danger, correct? After all, chivalry is not dead, at least not in my universe. No telling how the same sex partners look at it. After all, they seem to think your butt is for inserting things. Go figure!

But of course this doesn’t matter to the PC crowd. All they see is discrimination. There is no other way to look at it. They have already made up their minds, and BY GOD that’s all there is to it. Right lefties? Oops, shouldn’t have used the G-word, should I? Separation of church and state and all that!

The point of this article...
...is not about whether gays should serve in the military. Gen. Pace was saying that they can and do make valuable contributions. Limbaugh is talking about the PC police.

Of course Gen. Pace shouldn't have talked about his specific personal opinions on morality while in uniform and functioning in an official capacity. And Rep. Pelosi shouldn't have used it as a political football.

I would be the first to condemn personal statements, in an official capacity, from the other side of the controversy. As a general in the armed forces, he doesn't have any business talking about whether homosexual behavior is moral or immoral. The morality he needs to speak to relates to "killing people and blowing things up" -- or, more seriously stated, how to ethically defend our country.

Martha

Anyone amazed that Pelosi is vomiting
"House Speaker Nancy Pelosi implied that Pace was challenging the patriotism of homosexual service members"

Anyone like to explain how in the world she came up with this? Where the heck is Kimmy?

Um
That should be "sector of our society".

Oops.

Interesting
For the purpose of my comment, we must set aside anything serving members of the military have said on this issue, because as the column clearly shows they are effectively muzzled by political correctness.

I have yet to see anyone support the policy of gays in the military who has actually lived in a barracks environment. I don't for the life of me know why this is never addressed.

We don't bunk men and women together in the same barracks, for obvious reasons. Well, those same reasons still apply when you stick a gay person into a barracks setting with others of the same sex, most if not all of whom aren't gay.

This is a huge problem for unit cohesion, which is of paramount importance in the military.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the military is a unique sector of our sector to which not all Constitutional guarantees apply, because of the obvious need for special discipline, etc.

I don't understand why people try to make the military a place to experiment with social engineering. The job of the military is quite simple: to kill people and blow things up.

Period.
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