Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Tuesday, February 27, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Ending Democrats' Free Ride on Iraq
by David Limbaugh
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


For liberals like Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne, it is far worse for Vice President Dick Cheney to accuse congressional Democrats of playing into Al Qaeda's hands on Iraq than for Democrats actually to play into Al Qaeda's hands on Iraq.

It's perfectly fine for liberals to liken Bush and Cheney to Adolf Hitler or falsely accuse them of lying us into war in Iraq to steal its oil. It's perfectly fine for liberals to attribute failures in the federal response to Hurricane Katrina to alleged Republican racism.

But don't you dare question the wisdom of the Democrats' proposals on Iraq in such a way as to cause the hypersensitive to infer you were challenging their patriotism.

Apparently to Dionne and other like-minded liberals, the potential dire consequences of the Democrats' policies on Iraq are not appropriate for discussion and debate because they might make Democrats look bad, or even feel bad -- and those are far worse evils than throwing our national security in the toilet.

Precisely what did Dick Cheney -- the public servant who Democrats may, with impunity, stoop to any depths to slander -- say to make House Speaker Nancy Pelosi so indignant? Well, he issued his assessment of the Democrats' legislative proposals to emasculate our current offensive in Iraq.

Cheney said, "Al Qaeda functions on the basis that they think they can break our will … " and cause us to "quit and go home. … That's their fundamental underlying strategy. … If we adopt the Pelosi policy … we will validate the strategy of Al Qaeda. I said it, and I meant it."

What's wrong with that statement? If Cheney believes the Democrats' cut and run policies will benefit Al-Qaeda, doesn't he have an obligation to warn us? Not according to Pelosi, who said Cheney was questioning her patriotism.

Not once did Cheney suggest the Democrats were unpatriotic. He said, "I didn't question her patriotism. I questioned her judgment." Likewise, President Bush recently made clear that he didn't view the Democrats' proposals to withdraw from Iraq unpatriotic.

But if accusing your political opponents of playing into the enemy's hands constitutes an attack on their patriotism, the Democrats' hands are hardly clean either.

How many times have we heard Democrats say that President Bush's policies in Iraq are the best terrorist recruitment tool we could have possibly given to Osama bin Laden? Have you ever heard President Bush whine that Democrats were questioning his patriotism? No, perhaps because Bush is quite secure about his own patriotism.

What is the administration supposed to do in the face of the Democrats' relentless campaign to undermine any possible chance of our victory in Iraq? Should it simply remain silent as congressional Democrats, more concerned with mollifying their militant antiwar base and kicking a beleaguered president in the teeth than with assuming the sober responsibility their office requires, try to engineer America's surrender and defeat?

Until very recently the Democrats have had a free ride, slamming President Bush's policy, even parts of it they approved and authorized, without offering any alternative solutions. Now that they control Congress and are presenting actual legislative proposals, they can't stand the scrutiny their plans invite.

In the midst of these partisan skirmishes, we best not lose sight of the momentousness of the issues before us. Questions about the Democrats' patriotism pale in comparison to real issues at stake in the war on terror.

What is absolutely scandalous is that we are seriously considering unilateral surrender in a war without so much as contemplating the consequences to the Middle East or to our national security.

Democrats (and some Republicans) are advocating that we leave Iraq now, refusing even to consider what might happen if we withdraw prematurely. Presidential candidate John Edwards openly admitted as much.

Surely, they recognize the strong possibility that a bloodbath will ensue, that the constitutional republic our soldiers died to make possible will implode and that America-hating Islamists could seize control of Iraq and its oil and convert it to a launching pad for international terrorism.

It is imperative we begin to have a discussion about Iraq that involves more than dwelling on the problems if we stay, but also weighs those against the even greater problems that will accompany our precipitous departure. We must have a debate whose sobriety matches the gravity of the national security issues involved.

The administration and congressional Republicans must not be intimidated by false charges of name-calling from proceeding with a public debate that will force Democrats to emerge from their hiding places to explain and justify the inevitable, devastating consequences of their reckless policies. Haven't they had a free ride long enough?

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read David Limbaugh's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
Ummm . . . .
Actually, the U.S. didn't "pick up its toys and move them to Iraq" in March 2002. Coalition forces invaded Iraq the following year, in March 2003 -- a year-and-a-half after 9/11, and 15 months after the December 2001 Battle of Tora Bora, when Osama evidently slipped away.

But please, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

tanabear's logic
Yes, by all means, let's always follow the logic as tanabear suggests. As I understand it, the truthfulness of a conclusion is predicated upon the truthfulness of the premises upon which it is based. So perhaps someone can give us some proof of the premise that

"..."when we were fighting the Taliban and Al-Qaeda Bush and Rumsfeld did everything possible to make sure that bin Laden was not captured. Not only bin Laden, but many high-ranking leaders of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban."

I am not aware of any evidence that Bush or Rumsfeld were doing anything at all to make sure bin Laden or any high ranking leader of Al-Qaeda or the Taliban was not captured. Since such a premise seems rediculous at face value, we need some sort of credible evidence of its truthfulness before we can proceed at all with the logic of the argument.

Of course, when reliable proof of that premise is established (preferably before hell freezes over), we can proceed with the interpretation of Bush's statement that he was no longer concerned about bin Laden. I heard Bush's make that statement at the time. My interpretation at that time was far different than tanabear's. One of us must be factually incorrect.

I do agree with tanabear's final statement that the propaganda never ends.

Correction of typo
In my comments above, "I heard Bush's make that statement..." should be "I heard Bush make that statement..."

Sorry about that.

Liberal logic is messy
OK I’ll follow the logic. Logic tells me that we still have forces in Afghanistan since we destroyed the Taliban as a national leadership. Therefore we have not abandoned our commitment there. Logic also tells me that if we had invaded neighboring Pakistan in search for OBL we would have caused the government of that country to fail. Musharif has weak ties to the U.S. that endanger his and his family’s lives. Logic tells me that Bush would be hammered for such an outcome just like he is hammered now for the lefts’ perception that he left to invade Iraq. Yes we did move troops back in preparation of the Iraq war, but that is normal military strategy.
Let’s do some further reasoning about the Democrats. Logic tells me that it is easier to criticize than to actually present well thought out ideas as alternatives. The only ideas presented are from the hubris of knowing what’s best for the country based upon ideological beliefs. All I’ve seen for the last four years is a willingness to appease and surrender from the Democrats and the left. They have not offered up one idea or plan in the name of victory.
Finally logic tells me to believe what I see not what I hear. I have been here in Iraq on and off since October 2003. I have worked here as a contractor since the fall of 2005 and I’ve seen a lot of changes. The airport in Baghdad is up and running and there are civilian flights by Iraq airlines going out everyday. The mortar and rocket attacks have become less frequent and often are far less lethal than in years past. Oh, I know the usual liberal suspects will label me as a brain dead moron. That’s fine. It just makes me follow my logic and question their patriotism. In my logical world a patriot doesn’t disrespect his country and the people defending it. As far as I’m concerned logic is not the strong suite for Democrats and lefties. Logic only gets in the way of their feelings and beliefs.
Real life is dirty, stinky, and messy especially where the rubber meets the road. It takes courage to live in the real world; not everybody is willing or able to handle it.

The Republicans are too weak
in their response to the Democrats. They should be calling them traitors. Instead we have a few scummy Republicans joining the Democrats.

When I was a kid we used to like to overturn stones and such to find slugs to dump salt on. We can now do that in Washington, except that you don't need to overturn stones. They crawl around leaving their slime trail at all hours of the day. It would take too mush salt to get them all.

The next Traitorcrat strategy is to "deauthorize the war". What does that accomplish? This book will have to be rewritten after the Traitorcrats finnally finish their tirade.

http://www.amazon.com/Traitors-Treason-American-History-Benedict/dp/0425191850

Victory
"What is the administration supposed to do in the face of the Democrats' relentless campaign to undermine any possible chance of our victory in Iraq?"
I am yet to see David Limbaugh define what "vitory" in Iraq actually means. Does it mean a permanent US military occupation of Iraq? That's kinda irrelevent anyway because even if that happens Iraq will remain an Islamic state. Always was going to. How else was it going to pan out? As I have written many times on Townhall, the best case outcome is a democratic, secular Iraq sympathetic to US regional interests, but that was always the rank outsider. What odds would a bookie have given on that outcome back in early 2003? I'm not a bookie but let's say for argument's sake that it was a 100-1 shot. Good odds George.
"Victory", for me at least, means effectively tackling terrorism and anti-American sentiment in the Middle East. Regional peace and stability that in turn can lead to prosperity and a decline in radical religion. It isn't really something that can be measured from one day to the next. But thanks to the actions of George Bush and his cronies, supported wholeheartedly by the likes of Limbaugh, that sort of victory is even further off that it was on 9/10/2001. And that's before we even talk of an invasion of Iran...

Arctic
You are absolutely correct in describing life as messy, stinky(especially over there, from what I am told) and real!!! They cannot handle truth. I am convinced that they want to pull out of Iraq, wait for another terror attack and then, send troops back to go balls to the wall, so they can claim Victory. It is cynical, but they are a cynical bunch. God-forbid they let go of the insane nature of the hatred they have for Bush to let the troops finish the job. I say no more cow-towing...Getterdone!
(and, because I cannot resist...Kimberly, still waiting in your cave to rant and rave? Limbaugh wrote a column...here, monkey,monkey)

How can a person be smart enough to get
elected to congress yet be dumb enough to believe the pap the democrats are spouting?

Nee
At least you have the decency to admit it - that is one of the most cynical posts I've ever read on Townhall. You really think that Democrats would rather see another terrorist attack on US soil so that they can re-send troops to wherever it came from? Or didn't as is the case in Iraq. Just because they don't like Bush? And just how can troops "finish the job"? I'm intrigued to know the answer to that. Politicians started and must finish "the job", whatever it happens to be at any given time. But seeing as nobody seems to know what "the job" is, I suspect it will take some time to reveal itself...

To CB
Actually they will do ANYTHING if they think it will get them reelected. A terrorist attack on US soil is nothing compared to reelection. H*ll, they would cook and eat their own mother if they had a poll saying canabalism was gaining in popularity.

Vic
Politics is a business, and it's a politicians business to be in charge and win elections. But at the expense of thousands of American lives? I don't beleive for one second that any Democrat wants a major terrorist attack on US soil, or anywhere else come to think of it. I don't believe Republicans want that and I don't believe Democrats want that. Have a little faith in basic human decency...

To CB
There's two bad assumptions there. No politician is decent and no Traitorcrat is human.

Pelosi, a true national treasure!
Quick test question, name all the patriots on this list.

A. George Washington
B. Thomas Paine
C. Audie Murphy
D. Ronald Reagan
E. Nancy Pelosi

Give me a friggin' break, Pelosi complaining about her patriotism being doubted is like Charles Manson complaining about his socialization skills being questioned.

vic
You know what, I'm really not surprised to read that you spent much of your childhood torturing slugs. Isn't it usually the kids who take delight in killing animals the ones who turn into adult psychotics?

To CB
I was imagining that they were Traitorcrat politicians which are the same thing as egomaniacs and their enablers from the left.

Critical Bill
If the dems were truly about finishing this, why continue to roadblock, backtrack,etc..? You cannot undo what is being done in Iraq, so give them the tools,rules of engagement it requires and we could be done. Germany wasn't rebuilt in 4 years,but everyone conveniently forgets that and today the war is fought more technologically than from the 40's.
For once,dems need to forget about attaining more power,hating Bush, and get behind what we stand for. CB, you say that you don't believe dems want another terror attack...but many continously deny that the threat is out there,do they not? I could go get you quote after quote. The sad thing is if the words are not exactly saying it, yet the implication is clear, they deny it, all day long. Just like Carry's statement about Iraq was a "botched joke". And, again, we have not been attacked on a large scale since 9/11...does this mean we have failed and need to get out? Does it mean all the terrorists hve given up? No Way! And if you can't see how power blinds people, you will if we are attacked again.

more points.
Republicans also need to stop pussyfooting around. The difference there is they know terrorism is still a threat...yet,they continue to leave our borders open,knowing that Hezzbollah terrorists have come in. Dems also say Iran is not a threat...why then did we find a factory that makes explosive projectiles with Iranian parts, why was there top-5 general from Iran caught in Iraq. Simple answer- Iranian troops have already infiltrated Iraq...that is not provacative enough to say there is a threat?

Nee
Ok, I'll take you up on that offer. Get me "quote after quote" where Democrats deny that terrorism is a threat. And please explain what exactly "the tools,rules of engagement it requires and we could be done". What exactly could be done? It goes back to the point I made about Limbaugh to begin with - what exactly is "victory"? Come on, you are so sure about it, tell me what it means? Iran is a threat to regional stability, for sure, but to a certain extent are the Iranians just acting on what they perceive to be their national interest? As someone else wrote on one of these threads, if China invaded Canada or Mexico you can et your bottom dollar the US would become involved in one way or another. Is this any different? Terrorists certainly haven't given up; more recruits come to their side with every day that passes and they have gained immeasurable strength since 9/11.

to tanabear
This notion that Rumsfeld let bin Laden go is, I guess, something you read in The Nation, or heard from a Chomskyite. If you start out with such wild-eyed accusations and try to build a logical case from there, you will end up up just as confused as ... you are.

You admit yourself you don't understand what conservatives want or intend. Could it be you started with false premises?

The far left has long subscribed to the most ridiculous conspiracy theories, it's no wonder most of you are angry, confused, nervous wrecks.

Couldnt agree more
"The Republicans are too weak
in their response to the Democrats. They should be calling them traitors. Instead we have a few scummy Republicans joining the Democrats.

When I was a kid we used to like to overturn stones and such to find slugs to dump salt on. We can now do that in Washington, except that you don't need to overturn stones. They crawl around leaving their slime trail at all hours of the day. It would take too mush salt to get them all.

The next Traitorcrat strategy is to "deauthorize the war". What does that accomplish? This book will have to be rewritten after the Traitorcrats finnally finish their tirade."

I completely agree...we've been way too soft on those who are traitors...Jane Fonda, John Kerry just to name a few...The sad thing is that most people don't have the slightest idea how to disseminate information to figure out that John Kerry is a traitor. As a result around 47 million voted for him...These traitors should be tried for high treason and dealt with accordingly if they are found guilty.

Really though the "traitorism" we find today started with during McCarthy era. Communists were allowed to occupy high position in U.S. government and government did little to quell the tide. Left "tuck and turn" during McCarthy era as a result 50+ years of Cold war. Left "tuck and turn", aided, abetted, comforted our enemy during Vietnam as a result great people of S. Vietnam were hung out to dry, many millions slaughtered, many more millions refugees and Communism allowed to spread. Left now wants to "tuck and turn" during Iraq because they hate America(right wing) & Bush more than they should hate Al-Qaeda.


Working Together
I find Mr. Limbaugh's column fascinating. It's apparent the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree.

Let me see if I understand his logic.

If President Bush attacks another country pre-emptively which then alienates other people and countries with allegiances and ties to Iraq we shouldn't refer to President Bush as having help recruit more terrorists to a radical cause. Even though there are many studies that have proven this fact.

Yet when Vice-President Cheney, and others in this administration, refer to anyone who questions their policies as being traitors and emboldening al Qaeda, thats acceptable.

Hmm.

As soon as Mr. Limbaugh and his ilk realize that they are fighting the wrong enemy this war might end sooner.

Despite the rhetoric, on both sides, the sooner folks sit down and truly works things out, the sooner we'll be out of Iraq.

Unfortunately for the United States, the administration isn't well known for their negotiating skills. If they were able to resolve this by punching someone in the face, it might be resolved. To sit down and work it out isn't going to happen.

dogjudge
The Veep did not question their patriotism, only their judgment. Isn't it interesting how one can misquote and then build an arguement based on the misquotation.

tanabear - extremely loony lib
Just a heads-up for any of you who may be fairly new to TH, tanabear isn't your typical lib; he/she has completely left reality. (I never though someone could make Cindy Sheehan look sane by comparison).

You are wasting your time responding to anything he/she posts. All he/she will hear is the noise the adults make in the Charlie Brown cartoons.

Here, I’ll prove my point. Tanabear, please tell the newcomers who REALLY masterminded 9/11.

WiPer06
You noticed that too, huh?

WiPer06
If this was the first time this type of thing had come out of the mouth of the Vice President, or others in the administration, I'd agree with you. It isn't.

So how is someone supposed to interpret, "DES MOINES, Iowa -- Vice President Dick Cheney on Tuesday warned Americans about voting for Democratic Sen. John Kerry, saying that if the nation makes the wrong choice on Election Day it faces the threat of another terrorist attack."?

I realize parsing words is part and parcel of politics. At the same time, this nonsense has happened on both sides.

So if I inferred that you were a "insert your own pejorative", you wouldn't be defensive about it?

You might not agree with the analogy. This is sort of like sexual harassment. The perpetrator isn't the one who gets to decide the definition.

Bottom line. Anything the Democrats are talking about is policies and procedures. There is a huge difference between that and actually attacking a country and the effects of that action. Or don't you agree?

Dick's words of wisdom
Interestingly enough, many of Dick Dastardly's biggest whoppers, including "we will be greeted as liberators" and "the insurgency is in its last throes" have been mysteriously removed from the White House online archives. Shock horror I suppose. But good to see that Stalinistic wiping of history is alive and well at Penn Avenue... they might at laest have waited until he was no longer employed there to start "correcting" his utterances.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/25/153120/172

Oxymoron
Liberal (Lefty) logic...

and before Kimberly or lgm jump in:

Military Intelligence

"I'm from Washington, and I'm here to help you."

Sigh...

dogjudge
Nice try, but you're being very dishonest. You use quotations, but the quote is not accurate.

Here is a longer excerpt from Cheney's speech: "If we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again--that we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States. And then we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mindset, if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts and that we're not really at war. I think that would be a terrible mistake for us."

Cheney was not arguing that a Kerry win would by definition lead to a terror attack--but that if a terror attack happened under a Kerry administration, Kerry's response could represent a "fall back into the pre-9/11 mind set" of treating terror attacks as merely criminal acts, not acts of war....just like Clinton, and just like may dems are currently pushing for.


CB
Disagreement and debate are always welcome here, but using Daily Kos as source material is like using Mein Kampf as source material to debate the Israeli/Palestine issue....and it destroys and credibility you may have.

No Icedog
You are the one who is being dishonest. Firstly, dogjudge is clearly quoting from a report on the speech, not the speech itself. Secondly, if you take the first sentence of what you quote, Cheney is clearly insinuating that a vote for Kerry equals a vote for more terrorism. "If we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again." The meaning of that seems crystal clear to me.

Daily Kos
If that article is factually wrong, fine, but I suspect it is perfectly correct. Go check it out for yourself and get back to me if you're that certain.

Icedog
From your viewpoint it may appear that I was being dishonest. From my viewpoint, I quickly took a quote from the Des Moines Register which I assumed to be correct. Your complaint about the accuracy of the quote should be against them.

My point is the same. This isn't the first time that the Vice President has made this type of innuendo.

You'll notice that he isn't saying, "I respect my colleagues' difference of opinion. We believe they are wrong and we are right." Why the need to add in things about al Qaeda and terrorists unless you are trying to make that connection for your base of supporters?

So why are we quibbling about what EXACTLY Cheney said, yet we leave unanswered the fact that President Bush's war did, in fact, create more radicals? Mr. Limbaugh's column equates that FACT with Democrats questioning President Bush's patriotism. As far as I know, no one has ever made that connection. The Democrats (and Republicans who disagree with the President) have every right to question decisions that the President is making when it comes to the war. That doesn't mean they are questioning his patriotism.

As I said, and will say. Once the administration quits FIGHTING the Democrats and tries to work with them, the sooner we'll be out of this war. And that doesn't mean that the Democrats have to acquiesce to all of the President's wishes. The administration hasn't made all of the best decisions in the running of this war.

You can't question them at all
It doesn't matter whether you question Nancy's logic, her patriotism, her concern for national security, or how she "made" her millions, it is all, in Nancy's mind, unfair. Democrats are not to be questioned. They are wiser than you, smarter than you, and they know what is best for you (and No, it bears no resemblance at all to what is best for them). So just shut up and accept that the liberals have all the answers. No questions are necesary.

dogjudge - a question
Could it not be fairly stated that instead of 'creating' more radicals, the invasion of Iraq simply brought more of them into the open?

Incompetence
Congress isn’t being less than honorable when faced with the HUGE incompetence of the Bush Administration. Come on folks someone has to try and clean up this mess in Iraq and the rest of the world and it sure can’t be Bush and Cheney – they have zero credibility after the last five years. Democracy can be messy but the people spoke in the last election. Stop whining and name calling.

I Do Question Their Patriotism
I do question the patriotism of most politicians - at all levels of government. To me, the test of a real patriot is whether that person is willing to die for their country, if ultimately needed. Ask yourself whether you truly believe that most of our politicians would be willing to die for their country. Unfortunately, I believe most of them, especially the Democrats and other liberals, along with a growing number of whimpy Republicans, would never surrender their lives for this country. On the other hand, they're all readily willing to quickly surrender someone else's (your) life in order to secure their own power, control, and influence over our daily lives...which is their true allegiance.

There's a huge difference between being a citizen and being a patriot, just as there is a huge difference between being a politician and being a leader. In America today, patriots are rapidly becoming an endangered species. At the same time, our out-of-control borders and the huge influx of immigrants, legal and otherwise, are resulting in a frightening rise of naturalized neo-citizens -- having no true allegiance to this country. They are being given fast and easy citizenship for the sole reason of capturing their votes for the Democratic party. Even now in New York City, the libs are pushing hard to give voting rights to illegal aliens!

Before our very eyes, our nation is being surrendered to our enemies by our unscrupulous politicians. The question is whether America will be annexed by Mexico or will it be overtaken by the growing poplulation of "peace loving" Muslim-American voters who will amend our own constitution and adopt the absolute rule of Sharia law.
Truth: Leftys + Libs = Dems = Losers

Justpaul
Nice point. Liberals can't understand the difference between arguing about someone's facts and arguing about someone's opinion, and don't like either anyway. If you tell them their facts are wrong, they don't care about facts. If you tell them you don't agree with their opinion, they say you called them unpatriotic. When the Republicans in Congress wanted welfare reform in 1994, and passed it, liberals like Ted Kennnedy said it would leave millions of women homeless on the street. In fact, the homeless and poverty rates went DOWN. Do they admit they were wrong? NO! Ted Kennedy still says he was right, and cites data from the last three years of the Bush administration (nevermind the first 9 years after the legislation passed). Facts be damned! And when it comes to Pelosi interpreting being called wrong for being called unpatriotic, methinks she dost protest too much.

Do conservatives really hate America?
Why do conservatives hate America so much?

I’ve looked at it from every perspective and just cannot fathom what has led the right down its current nihilistic path of embracing failure, promoting defeat and trying to drag the country into a tailspin while abandoning the principles that have made her a beacon of hope for the world. Just 25 years ago it was Morning in America. Now conservatives are desperately trying to turn it into High Noon at Armageddon. The conservative movement, once a hotbed of compelling new ideas, now sits as a rusted hulk of its former self, left to defend failure, incompetence, arrogance and all the wrong results.

The war in Iraq is a great example. Started with the best of intentions, it has turned into a quagmire where every conceivable metric of our efforts (number of attacks, American deaths, Iraqi deaths, oil production, unemployment, refugees, etc.) is pointing in the wrong direction. After four years of World War II, the war was over but we had seen many signs that our efforts were paying dividends much earlier. After four years in Iraq, we see every indication that our efforts are producing exactly the opposite effects from what was intended. Our conservative friends warn that if we leave, Iraq will become a base for terrorism, that there will be unfettered civil war, a humanitarian crisis and our adversaries will be strengthened and emboldened. Yet it is precisely our efforts in Iraq that have produced each and every one of these results. The only reasonable surmise is that the right somehow wants to escalate this defeat into an even broader disaster for our nation.

We are also told that not supporting the president’s plan for an escalation of the war will lead us to defeat. And yet we tried this precise plan last summer, using about the same number of troops to surge into Operation Together Forward. The results were an unmitigated flop. After taking several weeks to adjust to our new tactics, the sectarian combatants escalated their fighting from an insurgency into a full-fledged civil war. Deaths of Americans and Iraqis reached record levels. Mark Twain once said the definition of insanity is to continue doing the same things and expecting different results. And yet the right insists that sending 21,000 additional young Americans into this meat grinder makes great sense despite the failure of this same strategy just months ago. The only logical conclusion is that they hate our troops as much as they hate America.

The old foreign policy graybeards at the Iraq Study Group, our National Intelligence Estimates, our generals in the field, our ambassador and even many in the Iraqi government warn us that we’re heading in the wrong direction, yet we stubbornly persevere. Discount the Iraq Study Group. Fire the generals. Replace the ambassador. Threaten the Iraqis. And then claim that everyone who disagrees is somehow wanting defeat. And yet all the evidence shows it is our current administration that has been single-minded in its pursuit of defeat by doing everything possible to achieve it from the earliest days of the war. How can they possibly hate America so much?

It’s interesting that all of this is done in the name of fighting terrorists. All evidence points to the fact that hatred of America in the Muslim world is at an all-time high, mostly resulting from our Iraq adventure. Our own National Intelligence Estimates, representing the consensus thinking of all 16 American intelligence agencies, says Iraq has become the cause celeb for international jihadist terrorism. Throughout Iraq and the Arab world, our policies are radicalizing an entire generation of young Arabs into hating America and wanting to strike back against her. And yet conservatives support these policies? Someone once said that God must love the poor since he created so many of them. By the same token, conservatives must love terrorists since the want to do everything possible to create more of them.

And that’s just the start. The nation whose kindness and generosity once made it the savior of Western civilization after World War II with the genius of the Marshall Plan now has adopted some of the worst trappings of martial law. Habeas corpus? Out the window. Geneva Conventions? Not our style. Extraordinary renditions (or kidnappings in less PC language)? Bring ‘em on. The nation that once provided a shining example of hope to the world by appealing to what’s best in human nature is now reviled across the globe as arrogant, destabilizing and out of control. Why does the right insist on projecting this bellicose, seemingly lawless image of our country to the world? Why do they insist on defending bumbling policies that have brought America’s international prestige to its lowest levels in more than a century? Why do they demand that we must surrender the moral high ground, abandon our principles and make ourselves an object of scorn? Hatred of America is the only possible explanation.

We could talk about a lot of other ways that conservatives are trying to destroy America. Anybody remember that quaint old conservative notion of fiscal responsibility? Or controlling your borders? How about that old Reagan notion of maintaining a strong military instead of breaking it? I could go on and on.

The point, only a little tongue in cheek in my best imitation of David Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and the like, is that conservatives have lost their way. Is it any wonder that 58% of Americans can’t wait for this administration to be over?

Patriot
I don't have to ask my two local Congressmen. Both wore this country's uniform and both oppose Bush. One is a long time member and one is new. They walk the walk and talk the talk unlike the chicken hawks of the Republican Party

2 - Questions
Dash 42 - Creating versus bringing radicals into the open. Absolutely could be either way. I would ask you to consider this, however. As soon as Goliath (the US) attacked David (Iraq), David is going to get a lot of sympathy from various groups with ties to Iraq. I'm not saying they are right, but if someone attacked a friend of yours, would you have a tendency to defend them or help them? Probably a combination of both.

Phxvet - Pulling out of Iraq. As we have both served in the military we have certain sensitivities when it comes to soldiers, etc. You may disagree, and I'd respect your opinion, but my feeling is that you give the military an objective. At that point, you want them to get in, do their job, and get out. That's why you do things such as use an absolute overwhelming force. The longer you stay, the more problems you have. I'm talking about things such as logistically supporting soldiers half a world away.

Right now, the biggest issue I see is simply defining what the goal is in Iraq. One side appears to feel that the goal has been accomplished. The other side seems to feel that the goal has yet to be accomplished. For that side, I am having a hard time grasping what their goal is. The best I've heard is a stable Iraq.

As I mentioned yesterday, if you agree that the country is in civil war, or something like that, how do you stop a civil war. From my view, contain, or beat into submission. Neither alternative is truly viable. If you have a different solution, please tell me.

At this point, my feeling is that we do as much as we can to stabilize the country as much as we can and then get out.

If it appears that other countries, or forces, are then trying to take over Iraq we work with NATO, the UN whatever, to stop that from happening. We don't try to do it alone.

If the country simply falls into anarchy because they can't come to agreements, well that's their choice.

Just my opinion.

And yours? Solutions that is.

dogjudge
Are you aware that since 1970 there were over 3,000 (very conservative estimate) attacks in the world committed by muslim terrorists BEFORE we went into Iraq?

Hoping a threat will go away by ignoring it is not a winning strategy.

Ken in Tennessee
You should publish that

Ken
Great post.

Phxvet
"The fact that she brought up the question of patriotism is quite telling!! Maybe she's feeling guilty about something!!!!!"

Exactly right! She as well as the rest of the cut and runners (Kennedy, Murtha, et al) know their conduct is traitorous, which is why they are so concerned that that is the perception as well. Lincoln famously declared that legislators who openly undermine a war effort should be hanged or driven out of the country.

Just think of how much harm pathetic jerks like Clinton, Carter, Kerry, and Kennedy (remember he tried to undermine Reagan during the Cold War) have done with their seditious conduct of foreign policy, which by the way has always been considered a crime (it's in the Constitution!). There should have been charges and prosecutions.

Conman
That quote about Lincoln and hanging - totally false. Absolutely made up, lock stock and barrel. But I applaud your honest choice of username.

dog judge
Bush the first tried working, talking and being rational with the democrats and got s*****ed. Maybe the son learned from that. Cheney is not my favorite person, but he was 100% right about Hanoi John Kerry, Kerry spends too much time in France, where it is far more acceptable to lie down than confront enemies. And yes DJ, many muslims are enemies, not all, but many. I live part of my year in Amsterdam and there we wait for the shoe to drop. That we have a good representation of Muslims in City and National government its not enough for the males who spend their day in the coffee shop smoking pot and getting ready for 2030 when they truely expect to take over the country.And if they try you can expect the native born Dutch to fight back, not rollover.

Icedog
From an absolutely arbitrary website I pulled up, they listed:

Christians in the world - 2.1 Billion
Muslims in the world - 1.3 Billion

So how many of the 1.3 Billion Muslims in the world are we supposed to worry about?

Perhaps you need to look at who you're defining as Muslims and who are the terrorists behind the attacks you cite?

I was talking about leaving Iraq. You want to explain to me how leaving Iraq equates to hoping that a threat goes away?

Phxvet
Teddy Roosevelt said it best: "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Oh and Lincoln protested in the streets about an aMERICAN wAR.

justpaul
Check my blog (click on my handle) for two good articles.

1. Liberal stupidity ala Limo Libs.

2. Teen pregnancy on the rise in the Nanny Nation of Britain! Gotta love socialism!

Ken, CB, Hal
It's all about Iraq, isn't it? Please take off your blinders and take a step back.

Yep, it's all about Iraq and...

India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Argentina and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and...

...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29

Of course, in your mind, all this hatred was created by the USA (even if millions of deaths were caused by muslim ideology before the US even existed)

http://savethesoldiers.com/j/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1695&Itemid=53

Another Point
Roosevelt and Churchill were responsible to legislative bodies. They won. Hitler and Mussolini were virtual dictators who routinely overrode generals and determined strategy.

Ken in TENN
Mister, you are totally full of Sh*t - period. What a nonsensical screed, starting from your absolutely heinous and outrageously stupid premise and maliciously degenerating from there.

This is like starting a conversation with someone by saying, 'why do you beat your wife'. Famous leftist trick... This is the real manifestation of malevolent leftist hate. Let me ask you, 'Was it difficult becoming such an a-hole'?

Publish? You already have been - sounds like something voted the best of Moveon.org.

conman
This is what Team bush should have done at the OUTSET and continued on and on. They allowed the fifth column libs to spout their scumbaggery unabated. Now they have to play catch-up.

I wonder when we on the right will realize that we ARE AT WAR with the left for control of the country.

Also, I suggest giving D'Souza's book, "The Enemy at Home," a read. He nails the perverted leftists to the wall.

Icedog
May I answer for Tanabear? It was the Jews, er, neocons, with the help of Israel. That's always the answer from tanabear!

Icedog
A lot of the Muslim hatred comes from the fact that liberal filth is flowing from Hollywood and they don't like the message. Consequently, it's the SAME THING that we on the right fight against, abortion, gay marriage, open homoism, feminazi's definition of the family, attack on family values, etc.

Kinda makes me wonder if:

The enemy of enemy is my friend applies to us and the Muslim fundamentalists? After all, we BOTH hate the left.

Got a moment, swing by my blog. Got a few you'll like.

Icedog
No it isn't. Those areas are growing threats because with the exception of the recent Somalia attack we have tied our forces and talent down in Iraq while the "real" threat grows and expands. The D's whole point is we have to get out of Iraq and fight the real terrorist instead of surogates

Phxvet
What you are proposing would appear to me to be similar to the end of the cold war and the fall of the Berlin Wall.

There could also be some similarities, the other way, with the fall of the Shah of Iran.

We're probably going to have to admit to agreeing to disagree on this solution. That's fine, at least the discussion was reasonable.

I have a follow up question. Given the history of the area, why do you feel the US would be able to succeed in imposing a government in that area when no other entity has ever been able to do it?

Yes, it would be great if it happened through the people there, but what's different this time that would cause it to succeed?


FUBAR
That is Iraq the question now is how to proceed forward in the war against terrorists. We can stay in Iraq like the germans in Stalingrad or we can pull back and attack elsewhere.

C-Bill
Apparently it is a questionable quote, successfully debunked by the left. However, there is no disputing the fact that he did go after a former Congressmen, DEMOCRAT OH Vallandigham, who openly and conspiratorially attempted to undermine his war effort.

Ha ha ha
GunnyG - reinventing himself as the paragon of virtue thanks to reading a book by Dinesh D'Souza. Hilarious.

phxvet
Although I don't agree with your conclusions, I can see where you are coming from. I can see where a reasonable person could hope that course of action might work. With that taken as a given, I can understand why you would support the President's path.

As you've seen, I respectfully disagree.

Of course if you want to go on a quail hunt, we could discuss it further. (Joke intended.)

Critical Bill
Actually, no. I still drink and raise H*ll.

Once again, for the bazillionth time, I point to the fact that YOUR COUNTRY is swirling round the loo (toilet) but you're here criticizing us.

Check my blog for today's article on rampant teen pregnancy in your nanny state. They get knocked up and YOU PAY FOR IT! haha. Free housing, free food, free medical.

Yep, you've got it going on there Bill.

BTW, did you see that article on my blog that the MOST popular name in England is now...

MOHAMMED! haha. nice.

Some arguments were reasonable
others rediculous. but really, is the issue not:
1. when we pull out there will be a bloodbath between Sunni and Shiete beyond the skirmishes we now see.
2. We will leave a vacuum, which while initially results in the bloodbath will degenerate
3. The 'sand arabs' (saudi's) will try to protect their compatriots the Sunni
4. The Folks in Iran will have to try to protect their Shiete surrogates
5. The Syrians will try to grab the Kurdish territories
6. The Turks will beat the Hell out of the Syrians
7. And Israel will finally give up and nuke somebody....

There is a mix of folks just unbelieveably dangerous, Srab, Mesopotamian, Turkmen and Asian and none have gotten along for thousands of years, why would they start now?

Gunny
You only turned down that pint I offered you the last time you were over here because you knew I'd drink you under the table. Me and my mate Mohammed.

dogjudge
I don't have a viable solution either.

1: We could destroy the country, leaving nothing but rubble behind - technically very easy (and without nukes, thank you very much), but politically problematical at UN level;

2: Partition into Khurdish, Sunni, Shia states - more later

3: Continue with relaxed ROE targeting anyone with a weapon - close on what we are trying now (Clear, hold, stabilize) with Iraqi units in the lead.

OK, 2 is probably the 'best' of bad political solutions except for one major problem. The Sunni's are in the Center with no resources worth mentioning (i.e. no OIL). The North and South would be amenable to partition, and it would be a bloody mess (short term) but probably the most stable in the end.

As I said, we have a couple of major problems with this scenario:
A) The Sunni's in the Center have no oil and hence no oil revenue - not gonna support anything without a heavy, longterm buy out.
B) The Gulf States and Saudi are predominately Sunni; they are not going to look kindly on a Shia state on their boarder with extremely tight ties to Iran - Iran is tolerable now as there are geographic barriers to military action (swamps on the Iran/Iraq/Kuwait boarder) and the US Navy in the Gulf.
C) Turkey will not tolerate Khurdistan - they have Khurdish problems of their own.

Having said all of that; the best we can hope for at the moment is a 'relatively' stable coalition government and a security force that is capable of keeping order internally and the Iranians contained externally. And do so without resorting to the terror tactics of Saddam.

Dunno if its practical, let alone possible; but that's what we are trying to do. Ignore the rhetoric of 'constitutional democracy' - not gonna happen with Sharia enshrined in the Constitution - Sharia trumps all other 'laws'...

It's a mess, with roots far back in history (before there was a USA so we can't be blamed for it - so there! - though no doubt some of the most seriously brain dead would believe it's all our fault anyway)...

Personally, I think we have to try to stabilize the situation enough for the New Iraqis to take over with a chance of success (or at least not devolving into a truly brutal civil war within 10 years of departure).

Hey, Hal!
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but we are STILL in Germany.

Critical Bill, fool and liar
I've had enough. I read 5 or 6 of Critical Bill's posts, and every single one was dishonest.

1) "I am yet to see David Limbaugh define what "vitory" in Iraq actually means."

Oh, PLEASE. It's been defined hundreds of times, nobody even questions it except dishonest debators like yourself. Victory is a self-sustaining, liberal Iraqi republic, able to defend vs enemies within and without, and generally unfriendly to the forces of Jihad. You know this definition as well as I do. Stop lying.

2) "You really think that Democrats would rather see another terrorist attack on US soil so that they can re-send troops to wherever it came from?"

Not once was this suggested or implied, either by Limbaugh's article, or by the poster you were replying to. Stop lying.

3) "more recruits come to their side with every day that passes and they have gained immeasurable strength since 9/11."

Completely at odds with the facts. We've captured LOTS of commiques from terrorists, and they consistently identify their position in Iraq as "bleak." Our kill ratios are 10 to 1 or more. Al Qaeda has officially retreated from Baghdad, calling their position "hopeless." Al Qaeda cannot replace the leaders we kill on a regular basis. Murder is down 80% in Baghdad since the "surge" was announced. Stop lying.

4) "Interestingly enough, many of Dick Dastardly's biggest whoppers, including "we will be greeted as liberators" and "the insurgency is in its last throes"..."

Do you understand the difference between a lie and a mistake? Do you understand the difference between a mistake and an honest assessment of intelligence data as it's presented at the time? Do you understand the difference between the left's memes on Iraq and the actual reports from the field?

Not only are these not "lies," they're not even mistakes. We WERE greeted as liberators by a large number of Iraqis, and the insurgency WAS on its last legs. Stop lying.

And on and on. The Left is simply, completely dishonest, right down to the cores of their very beings...

phxvet
No one condemned the attack in Somalia. Afghanistan is now falling apart and destabilizing Pakistan. Pakistan has nukes. We damn well better do something. My major worry is that Bush will remain as incompetant as he has been.

We are in Iraq...
to give Afghanistan a democratic ally in the muslim world. Afghanistan would not be able to defend itself against any of the oil-rich countries that neighbor it should a country like Iran or a still Saddam-lead country like Iraq want to remove the fledgling democracy from the neighborhood. This is why we are in Iraq.

Remember, Vietnam didn't have an ally in the area in the '60s/'70s, and we were told about the communist dominos that were ready-to-tumble once S. Vietnam went red.

Pres. Bush had enough foresight to let the people of Afghanistan and Iraq get a taste of democracy early on with those elections in years past.

What irks the libs so much is that Bush's effort to build a democratic republic in a foreign land is working when the Kennedy/Johnson et al effort bore no fruit in S.E. Asia (Vietnam).

The LAST thing the Dems want is a poorly-spoken, slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging hick, like Bush, writing this best-seller.

Critical Bill
I don't know, I hung tough with the Aussies swilling pints of Guiness in Melbourne not to mention closing the Red Barn bar in Harstad with a group of Royal Marines.

Rick
So true but as allies when we invaded Germany we had enough troops to enforce stability and maintain order. Iraq may have went the same way if we had gone in with enough troops and a plan for rebuilding. Iraq did not have to be a failure but it sure is now

inkling_revival
Glad to have got your goat.
1) never seen David Limbaugh write that. Sounds like a reasonable definition. Please direct me to where Limbaugh writes that. Still, not sure a liberaal Iraq is what you or Limbaugh would want but I'm all for it. Never going to happen though, unless you know of any liberal democracies in Islamic countries.
2) that was written in direct reply to a post I was responding to. If that wasn't clear then I apologise. I refer you to Nee's post of 7.03am. "I am convinced that they want to pull out of Iraq, wait for another terror attack and then, send troops back to go balls to the wall, so they can claim Victory. It is cynical, but they are a cynical bunch." No apology necessary.
3) Depends how you define terrorists - if you want signed up members of Al Qaeda - well, I've got sour news for you. Membership is not published. but if you mean insurgents, Taliban, Al Qaeda's membership across the words - then I stand by my words. Again, no apology necessary.
4) Well, you can deny it all you like. I would suggest "greeted as liberators" ought to last more than about 5 minutes. And on its last legs? Don't make me laugh. Okay, whoppers does imply lies but hey, what does that matter - the point is that they have been removed from the White house archives. Again, no apology necessary.

You've clearly had a stomach full of sour grapes, and it must hurt.

Dem Congress must fix mess
If the republican congress had done a modicum of oversight we would not have the disaster now known as Iraq. The simple fact is that the American people have charged the Democrats with the responsibility of cleaning up the Bush/Cheney fiasco and we expect them to do it.

this Administration can no longer be trusted on one single thing related to the war. They alone created this mess.

The righties who still support these bufoons are irrelevant to the debate and they will become more irrelevant after 2008.

So, why don't you people wake up.

Just listen to Laura Bush - the one bombing a day that discourages people, she says - what is that all about - that one bombing today killed 18 children - Iraq is not remotely close to being stable

And then you have poor Condi comparing Sadaam to Hitler on the White House, er, Fox News program. Watch Olbermann eviscerate Condi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QukIuwe2uQ

It was brilliant.

And then you have Cheney floating around in la la land talking about how great it is that our strongest ally is cutting and running from Iraq. This is not so great. Juan Cole explains why: http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/02/23/british_withdrawal/index.html

How can you people still buy into the BS. I just don't understand it. I have to believe it is willful ignorance. You know the truth, but you decidely deny it in order to advance some agenda. That has to be the answer because nobody can be that unintentionally stupid

Gunny
Clearly the fearsome drinking reputation of British journalists has eluded you, even ones at the wishy washy liberal press.

phxvet
My apoligies. Poor word choice. I meant a destabilising Afghanistan is now destabilizing Paqkistan. Yes the fluid factor is the terrorists. The tribal areas were never all that stable now they are becoming much worse

Ending Republican Rubberstamp On Iraq
I have come to the conclusion that Repulicans,
proffessional and non are in total denial about the results of the midterm elections which turned control of Congress over to the Democrats.
The repubs still seem to think that have ability to "rubberstamp" each and every proposal President Bush sends to them on Iraq. Sorry it aint like that anymore repubs... you no longer hold the gavel in either chamber. THE DEMS DO!!

Therefore it is should be logical that they would
force the issue on withdrawing from Iraq because that is the mandate which was given to them by those whom elected them to the majority. These people disagree with Prez Bush and the repubs on Iraq and want the war ended NOW IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

It's hard to take statements like V.P. Cheney and his ilk seriously anymore because they are
so detached from reality on what is happening
in Iraq. He's telling Democrats that if you disagree with Bush/Repubs on Iraq youre in bed with the enemy? that is absolutely presposterous.
because youre following the dictates of your constituents in wanting end a war they see as unnessecery and counterproductive youre a "cut and run traitor"? that's ludicrous.

What repubs/cons have to understand is that the vast majority of this country is against this war, president bush's handling of it and want it terminated. It has nothing to do with winning or losing bushites think. If repubs choose to "stay the course of escalation" while the majority of americans are against it, they do so at their own peril. They have already lost control of Congress and in 2008 they will lose the white house also.

Critical Bill, Gunny
In my book the Aussies are the masters of drink keep up with them and the Russians and you are world class.

Hal
World class and six foot under, especally this time of year in Moscow. No amount of potato vodka is worth that!

Another tired day
I get so tired of hearing this debate. This debate occurred the first time in October 2002. The congress of the United States voted to go to war. At that point the debate is OVER people. What should have happened is that we would go into Iraq immediately after the vote. In the few short weeks that it actually took the Iraqi Army and Saddam would be no more. After we took Baghdad, then we should turn right and take out Iran while we still had the army concentrated. This should have been coordinated with the Israelis taking out Syria. The entire mess would have been over in 2 months. Once the armies of Syria, Iraq, and Iran were destroyed and their current (at that time ruling bodies were executed) we should then have loaded back up and came home.

In the time between the vote to go to war and the army coming back home, everyone who opened their mouth to speak out against the war should have been charged with treason. First offence, horsewhipping. 2nd offence firing squad.

The time for debate is before the vote. The time to shut up and finish the fight is afterwards.

well folks
Be well I am off to meeting. Enjoyed the chat

Conman
You missed the last paragraph, the part about it being a tongue-in-cheek imitation of the Coulteresque kind of name-calling and misattribution of motives frequently applied to Democrats by the right. And I honestly don't appreciate it any more when I read the lefties doing it to conservatives.

The serious point I'm making is that Iraq has become a defeat for America because of the incompetent way it has been pursued from the time Saddam's statue fell. It didn't have to end this way, but unfortunately it has. We cannot continue to look at defeat and say we're pursuing victory with any credibility. We can't honestly say we're supporting the troops while we continue to put them in a position where they cannot succeed. All the partisan rhetoric and posturing aside, Iraq has become a foreign policy disaster of enormous proportions that has produced precisely all the results we wanted to avoid.

Nearly all our allies have deserted us, we've stirred up dormant sectarian conflicts that are now threatening to engulf the entire Middle East and made Iran much stronger than it ever could have made itself. Is this really what we wanted to achieve? Is this what "Mission Accomplished" was supposed to look like?

We have an old saying in Tennessee that sometimes when you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is STOP DIGGING.

Left Angle
How about getting your party squared away FIRST before mewling about the GOP?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0207/2908.html

I see that the Dhimmicrats led by Pelosiovich managed to make ONE 5 day work week so far in,like, what, SIX WEEKS? haha.

My personal favorite is her putting Frozen Money Jefferson on the Homeland Security Committee! HAHA. That jackazz could not pass a polygraph and SHE gives him access to TS material.

You liberals are dumber than a bag of rusty hammers.

Libs
Great idea! Let's give up in Iraq and go elsewhere! I am absolutely certain that our new allies will trust us to help them and stand by them. They will put themselves and their families' lives at risk to help the US achieve it's objectives because they can be certain that when the going gets tough we will be there to the end. Mr. Donohue, the political left in this country, like the French, will oppose any war, anywhere, anytime. I think that we would not deploy to Afghanistan or Pakistan but would relocate to somewhere safe. The Dems appear to be afraid to use the military or endanger our soldiers in any way. This is great but in the end, a whole lot more die because of the hesitation. Oh, and can we please be done with the "chickenhawk" crap? That is a liberal trick to silence opposition to your position and will not work here. Have a nice day.

Hal Donohue
When I walked out of both bars, I was sloshing! haha.

For many years in the Corps, we'd drink all night and then get an hour or two of sleep and get up for PT! The formation would smell like a brewery.

Sean
You wrote, "How can you people still buy into the BS."

Perhaps it's because we know the facts.

The "disaster called Iraq" is peaceful and prospering everywhere but within about a 30 mile radius of Baghdad. The death rate in Baghdad, military action included, is less than that of some major US cities, and has dropped by about 70% since the announcement of the "surge." Muqtada al Sadr has fled the country to his puppet-masters in Iran; al Qaeda has officially removed its presence from Baghdad, calling it a "lost cause." Yes, there's some action there, dutifully magnified by the press, but the situation is stabilizing.

In the meantime, the entire middle east has been affected by the demise of Saddam Hussein and the establishment of a putatively free society. We've seen some remarkable firsts in the middle east in the last 3 years, including the re-establishment of a Lebanese government, resistance by the Egyptians to their absolutist government, and for the first time ever, leaders of Muslim countries have not rubber-stamped every action by Hamas or Hezb'allah, but have instead announced opposition.

The Bush administration assessed, boldly, that a free republic in the middle east would change the complexion of the area, and they were right. History will regard this as visionary.

CVN65
Evidently, the liberals fail to note that Iran is targeting NYC.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17312636/site/newsweek

Since that city is chock full o Libs, why should we bother to do anything to save them if they don't want to save themselves?


But, Hal,...
The conversion of the Naziis wasn't immediate either. There were Nazi holdouts taking pot shots at soldiers for YEARS after the WWII ended.

Gunny G: WHO controls Congress? lmao
you can talk all the crap you want DEMS CONTROL CONGRESS, REPUBS DONT...LOL

phxvet:

there is no need to pull the funds...if it were up to me I would give Bush EVERYTHING he wants
so he can continue to fall on his face in failure in Iraq, then a new democratic prez elected in 2008 will end the war with the democratic congress. comprende?

Left Angle
Nice reply. Did you read the article or merely ignore it? The bottom line is that the libs are screwing up big-time and guess what, just in time for 2008.

She sure is draining that swamp! haha.

Gunny
Can we call him "Cold Cash" Jefferson? And someone please explain to Leftangle what "Mission Accomplished" meant. I am sick of explaining away this DNC talking point to liberals who refuse to listen. Sorry, LA, but the mission was accomplished by May, 2003. Everything after that has been policing, nation building, counter-terrorism, etc. What we are doing there now is not war. Gunny- any word on voting for Azzhat of the Year? Or will this be selected by a party of one? Cheers.

To GunnyG
Are we going to start telling sea stories about drinking now???

Inkling Revival
You are either kidding or willfully ignorant. "peaceful and prospering everywhere but within about a 30 mile radius of Baghdad."

Please read the Juan Cole piece I cited as an example. You have to stop getting your information from Faux News. Maybe you are just pulling my leg.

Please cite me some source for your remarkable statements:

"al Qaeda has officially removed its presence from Baghdad, calling it a "lost cause."

"the situation is stabilizing"

Vic
What is the difference between a sea story and a fairy tale?

To CVN65
One starts with once upon a time and the startes with this ain't no sh*t. Hah, its been 30 years but I still remember that one.

I was going to unload some story about 'Potown light-offs and setting the steaming watch.

Vic
Nailed it! One more: where do I look if I want some sympathy? (Feel free to chime in Gunny)

Credibile Conservative Columnists
If you were going to recommend 3-4 conservative columnists, who you consider credible, who would they be?

Please don't give me Rush, Coulter, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc. I barely consider them columnists, much less credible columnists.

Although I might not agree with them, I like William F. Buckley, George Will and Patrick Buchanan.

As an aside, I just heard Seymour Hersch on NPR. He was promoting his piece on Bush and sending money to al Qaeda through the Lebanese.

Whether I agreed, or disagreed, I would definitely say that he has a credibility problem. He quoted lots and lots of facts. None of his sources for his facts were ever mentioned. An anonymous source, a high administration source, a source in the Pentagon. If you are going to make the type of accusations that he makes, for God's sakes you've got to come up with SOME sources where people can verify you facts.

Was it Will Rodgers or Mark Twain? "Believe half of what you see and nothing of what you read."

To CVN65
It's located between sh*t and (?), can't remember all of that one.

Vic
syphilis. Have a great day! "You can always tell a Navy man, but you can't tell him much."

dogjudge
The reason that he is able to get the inside scoop is because he doesn't reveal his sources. I know it is frustrating when you don't have a specific name, but Hersh is not making this stuff up.

He was spot on some time ago about Bush's plan to attack Iran (based on anonymous sources) and we now know that the plan is ready and only waits for the order.

Hah;
No you don't get much sympathy in the Nav. Well, I got to go for a little while and take care of some stuff. I check back in later.

CVN65
D*MN! Missed that exchange! (at lunch) You know EXACTLY where sympathy lies my friend.

To GunnyG
Yeah, It started to degenerate to sea story.

phxvet
Great reply.

I think the firebombing of Dresden by the Brits MIGHT have BBQ'd a tad more Germans than the evil ol US Army has KIA'd in Iraq.

Sean,

Vice listening to some idiot who has never BEEN to Iraq, please observe some recent photos from a buddy in Iraq. I know that facts tend to upset the apple cart that you liberals live on but check it out. You may see something that would NEVER be posted on moveon.org, georgesoreazz.com, etc.

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/g/a89c482c-3a25-4a16-a924-3a357c1119d5

Huh?
Glad to see the column got folks talking.....

Sorry I don't have time for all the comments, but from what I have time to see, Dems have so twisted reality they no longer know it from their own creation. Pointless, but I'll still say it. Grow up

No way to win without nuclear strikes
The heart of Islam needs to be riped out by nuking Mecca and Medina. Islam needs to be replaced with Christianity all over the Middle East. Islam was Satan's response to counter the spread of Chritianity. Muslim so called martyrdom is a twisted definition of the word their's is a martyrdom based on selfishness, because they think they will be instantly rewarded with all the pleasures they couldn't get here on earth. An example of genuine martyrdom is when Christians were put to death simply for refusing to deny their Lord Jesus Christ. Sucide is against God's law, and martyrdom was not used to kill non-believers when they didn't pose a physical threat. The law of God however does allow for killing the enemy of Christianity when it is under Physical threat.

dogjudge
you wrote: "If President Bush attacks another country pre-emptively which then alienates other people and countries with allegiances and ties to Iraq we shouldn't refer to President Bush as having help recruit more terrorists to a radical cause. Even though there are many studies that have proven this fact."

First, it's time for you to go back to history class. Can you tell me when exactly it was that Iran and Syria had allegiances with Iraq? Maybe a couple of hundred years ago and I said maybe. Did you forget the war that lasted something like eight years between Iraq and Iran when Saddam that loveable old salt used WMDs on the Iranians? Of course not you've been educated in public school haven't you? It helps to read books other than those assigned to you at public screwl. Don't feed me this liberal pap that they are fighting us in order to defend Iraq from our occupation. That's the problem with libdolts, they live in a dream world. They (Iran and Syria) are helping terrorists (or "insurgents" as dimocrats call them) fight us because the last thing the mullahs wants is ademocratic republic of any kind in the ME. Having a democracy next door with be the end of them and their Islamic Republic.

Second, the NIE did say that we were creating more terrorists by being there however two points on that a) anything we did to fight back was going to create more whackjobs and b) it is far better to fight them there than here. Why can't libdrools ever get that? Wise up dude.

Correction for dogjudge
Ooops. Line should read: "Having a democracy next door will be the end of them and their Islamic Republic."

lionhearted
Have to disagree with your heading - we can blast Iran to the stone age without resorting to nukes.

We can also assassinate the Revolutionary Council and Amajihadist with special ops types.

Neither of which will happen as the Left will insist upon a level of proof that NO ONE could ever provide from President Bush.

If the Supreme Anointed One were simply to order such action based on the preponderance of the evidence the Left would excoriate ANY ONE who dared question Her action...

The hypocricy of the Left is never ending...

To Dash42
It wouldn't take much to blast them back to the Stone Age, maybe a couple of M-80's. They are already at the Stone Age.

Vic
well, yeah - that was one of my subliminal points...

Vic
I too grow tired of this constant debate. I have a solution:

Why don't we hold one more election in Iraq and ask the Iraqi people to vote as to whether they want the U.S. to stay or go?

End of story. We simply follow their direction. I am certain the libdolts will be against that because it will finally once and for all prove them wrong. Unfortunately no matter what it just won't shut them up. And no doubt they'll be trying to get illegals to vote in that election too!

Vic
M-80's. Dude that's funny!

Gunny G
I viewed the web page you sent to me. Those are some nice photos, but I am not sure what they prove. You think that little Iraqi boy just happened to be carrying around a placard saying thank you Mr. Bush?

What I found most interesting is the statements contained in the website you sent me to:

"Women can walk the streets without fear of gangraped by Udai and Qusai and their buddies, kids can play in the streets without fear of being snatche dup and forcibly conscripted, the Iraqi Soccer Team can lose without fear of torture, and all adults can vote for their candidate in elections ..."

I suppose maybe some of that has changed with news that 18 children were killed today playing soccer. Or a suicide bomber blew up a popular ice cream parlor.

I happen to live in a large city. I don't know about you but if I woke up this morning and learned that 18 schoolchildren were murdered playing soccer in the suburbs and a downtown pizza place was blown up by a suicide bomber - I would be TERRIFIED.

You have to be kidding me Gunny G - maybe you cannot appreciate the level of violence because it is happening "over there." Try to equate it to something closer to home and see if you can understand why the people in Iraq might be scared.

Sean
Sean writes, "The reason that he is able to get the inside scoop is because he doesn't reveal his sources."

Sean his right on the money. We would never get the juicy stuff from inside the Whitehouse if our sources were revealed.

For instance, several "high level" members of the DNC informed me that the democrats actually want to skip socialism and go straight to true communism (they will be the small elite at the top of course). However, the dems realized that their marxist ideas weren't getting through to all the rednecks (see: Hillarycare).

Shortly after the 2000 election, the dems all agreed the only way the new communist nation could be built would be on the ash heap of the present country. They have since done everything in their power to destroy our country.

According to some of my other democrat sources, they are "very pleased" with their progress and the unquestioning support by their "base".

I have confirmed this evil plan with multiple high-level DNC sources, but I can't reveal my sources or I might lose the next "scoop".

Sean
Hey Sean, real men don't get terrified. They get angry, even, concerned, vengeful, perturbed, and disgusted. When you become terrified that means the bomber has won and they should never be allowed to see that their savagery changed anything at all. People who perpetrate violence must be met with force not whimpers. You cannot talk to these people - why can't you guys get that? Iraq and the greater ME was violent long before the US ever showed up there. In fact it was a violent place long before the US even existed so stop deluding yourself that it is because of anything we did or do now. The problem with Iraq is not that we are there it is that we didn't kick someazz like only we can.

icedog
That is funny - I have to give you credit the creativity.

oh, all right, tannabear
Mohammad Atta and the blind sheik were two of the three. The third was Osama who provided direct funding. Note I said DIRECT...

and i suppose
that the chlorine tankers that have been detonated recently in Iraq are figmants of some mad Bushies imagination?

Chlorine gas was used in WWI (by both sides) and is classified in this context as a Weapon of Mass Destruction.

Hey Tanabear
I was sitting in a crapper in Duluth, Minnesota when I overheard two people talking in the next cubicle. It was Albore and Madaling Allbrong plotting to let Benlaughing go.

So now we know the rest of the story....

Give Me a Break
Did the Democrats get us into the intractable mess in Iraq?? It is a mess and we can't just pull out - but the rhetoric of Cheney - who has and is making millions out this mess - is so much blowing in the wind - meanwhile Bin Laden is walking around and now the Taliban are resurging and we don't have enough troops in Afghanistan to stop it - why??? They are in Iraq forming the "newest democracy in the world" whopeee - and by the way another 1st Cav trooper killed yesterday - I have lost count and for what? What is the objective to bring democracy to a bunch of tribal rag heads who wouldn't know it if it bit them in the fourth point of contact - give me a break

Gunny G
There are more MOH in New York than any place in the country - one of the most patriotic places in the USA - your remark that we - who the hell we is I don't know - should let the get hit marks you as one of the bigger jerkoffs I have encountered lately -

By The Way
Who elected this congress - folks in conservative states who are fed up with "stay the course" also note the disgrace at Walter Reed under Rumsfelds watch

Sardine and Proud of It
Got the handle when I was a paratrooper in the 101st Abn phxvet - I got more time in the chow line then you have in the service

sardine101
No the Dems did not; nor did they act to PREVENT it. They bear that ultimate 'r' word just as heavilly as do Republicans.

No evasions about faulty intel or other such BS: Many knew exactly what they were doing and now the Far Left Fringe is holding campaign $upport over their heads.

My rebuttal point is this: They could easily have stopped the invasion by refusing to allow debate to end in the Senate. Or by invoking War Powers in the House (difficult there, but by no means impossible). They DID NOT DO IT - in fact, they voted in favor of a resolution they demanded.

Sigh. The hypocrisay of the Left knows no bounds...

As much as the Dem Leadership would like to evade their responsibility for the War in Iraq, they can not do so. I'll stipulate that Pres. Bush bears more, but the individual members of Congress who voted 'aye' on the resolutions are ultimately responsible for their own votes. One thing a Lefty Pol can NEVER under any circumstances do is simply admit he was wrong. No, this does not excuse or omit Repubs as well, they can be just as pig-headed stupid and proudful.


As a Dem, I am NOT Unpatriotic
This rhetoric by Cheney that the Dems are "emboldening" terrorists by bringing up debate about Iraq is such bull. We all know he means "I refuse to acknowledge that you know this WH has bungled this war-lost over 2 bil. in pallets of cold hard cash (Taxpayer money), has not discovered WMD, lied about WMD (according to Libby trial), has screwed up reconstruction (Police Ac. uninhabitable), had 6 interpreters who spoke the language, disbanded any hope of Iraqi govt.,lied about 9-11 connection to Iraq, lied about Bin Laden involvement (not even on FBIs most wanted)..So just stop the "what you don't know won't hurt you mentality". We all know BETTER. The Dems didn't screw this up so monstrously -Cheney & Bush did. As you see military personnel come back limbless, with head injuries to subpar conditions at Walter Reed-it must make you very proud Mr Limbaugh-to know that you're doing your part to ensure those conditions by being a Cheney mime.
This WH has bungled this war so badly-they no longer deserve any vote of confidence in them by Americans, the military, and the world.

To Sardine101
Some of us made rank so we didn't have to stand in the chow line.

beth, for the last time
VP Cheney is NOT questioning their patriotism in this matter, only their judgement.

As to his point about it emboldening al Qaeda: Of course it does, all they need do is keep bombing things and we will eventually leave. That has been their MO since Clinton bailed out of Mogadishu following the sight of two dead US pilot being dragged through the streets. If we defund, or slow up reinforcements or set a hard date for withdrawal, the enemy knows they only have to hang on so long. We will leave and they will have a free hand.

Look at Vietnam and other conflicts of this kind in history. Insurgents do NOT win on their own. The more powerful combatant eventually leaves or is pulled away by other factors. The terrorists/insurgents can not win in open combat, every time they stick their ugly heads up they get them shot off. They can only win by keeping the casualties coming and weakening the political will of their enemy.

mmm, beth?
Did Bush/Cheney order/arrange the 9/11 attacks? Perhaps to get the Clinton office in NYC?

Or perhaps FDR 'knew' the Japanese would strike on Dec 7 at Pearl and let it happen as an excuse to get us involved in WWII. I discount that thesis as well...

The President can NOT snap his fingers and magically prevent attacks by foreign nationals on US territory. It don't work like that, he'd been in Office slightly less than 8 months; Mr. Clinton and his team had had 8 years to work on anti-terrorism measures and failed measurably on repeated occaisions...

Since the tone of the debate is already
in the toilet, let me ask, "At what point can I question someone's patriotism?"

A COMMON theme on the left is that this country is not worth dying for, and not worth fighting for. Can I question their patriotism?

A leading Democrat said that the men and women who put the lives on the line in the defense of their country are a bunch of losers who couldn't make it through school. This person also lied in testimony to Congress, fabricating stories of atrocities in order to undermine his own country's military during a time of war. Can I question his patriotism?

Journalists at the NYTimes expose secret methods used to track down terrorists. Can I question their patriotism?

When the enemies of America strongly favor one political party over another, does that tell you anything?

If a leading Senator meets secretly with the Soviets at the height of the Cold War with the express purpose of cooridinating efforts to thwart his own country's foriegn policy, can I question his patriotism?

Can I question the patriotism of Alger Hiss?

...

We're not saying that ALL Democrats would like to see their country attacked and perhaps overthrown -- only some of them feel that way.

Enemies of America had to choose one party or the other to infiltrate and to exert influence over American politics, and long ago they chose the Democrats. Instead of puffing out the chest and being so insulted, why don't you work to push the anti-American wing out of your party?

tanabear
was it Colonel Klink in Hogan's Heroes?

tanabear
Colonel Sanders?

no real debate here
Limbaugh wants to

"have a debate whose sobriety matches the gravity of the national security issues involved. "

Better look for it elsewhere than on TH. Judging by the trash posted here most conservatives can do nothing but whine and call people who disagree with them names. The best posts are from Ken in Tennesee and Dogjudge, not the conservatives that hang out here.

Vic
I was a Master Sergeant - my men ate first - that is a tenet of leadership - phxvet I served for 29+ years if you can beat that good - stop suckinup Gunny G's fourth point of contact

already have a vote of conficence
This white house already has a vote of confidence. Got it back in '04. The true mandate will happen in '08, I figure, Pay attention I am going to do a breif outline of victory in Iraq, that by that time Iraq leadership will have a firm handle on rule of law leadership and their military and police forces will be able to handle almost all insurrections and terrorist strikes for themselves and you will see a great reduction of attacks. You will also see Iraq in negotiations with their neighbors outlining what they expect from them. This will be a very strong set of expectations coming from the gov. of Iraq as they will have one of the best trained militaries in the Mid east. Also you will begin to see the functions of a finacial powerhouse in the mideast as the new capitalist economy will grow beyond oil thus enableing the Saudi's ruling family to be able to crack down on its radicals as up to this time they have had to walk a tight rope in trying to deal with the west and the rest of the tyrants in the mideast. Eventually you will see Saudi gov. install gradual steps to democratic rule. Iran will soon cave to internal as well as external pressure in the next 4 years as their population begins to see the brilliant light of Freedom and prosperity coming from their Iraqi neighbors.

vote of confidence
opps spellin

Steve O
No one has the right to question someone’s patriotism - but if you don't agree with the gung ho folks on this page then you are not patriotic - never mind if you served in Nam or Iraq or any place else - they are the saviors of our country and are always right - never mind that more than 60 percent of America wants to bail in Iraq - I am not one of them for reasons of my own - they are right - stay the course kill the terrorist - kick down doors - abuse people in their own country and that will solve the problem - the problem of recruiting more terrorist - Nam all over again -

Sardine:
Let me provide some answers to your queries:

"Did the Democrats get us into the intractable mess in Iraq??"

They certainly helped. They had their chance to vote against going to war in Iraq – they did not. In addition, as you are well aware of but have chosen to ignore, they ran around the country for years talking tough with Saddam and Iraq saying something had to be done and recommending regime change. Where they messed up is that while they knew Clinton never had the stones to ever do anything about Iraq and they were safe from that icky military and war stuff, Bush on the other hand believed everything he heard from them and from the intelligence and went in. I agree it is a mess but part of that is due to ROE’s that were politically correct and therefore acceptable to some degree to libdolts. After all they would never want us to be in a war where anyone actually got killed or anything, unless its our guys since they're all dumb bloodthirsty hicks anyway.

“the rhetoric of Cheney - who has and is making millions out this mess - is so much blowing in the wind:

First off libtards screamed bloody murder when Cheney joined the ticket and they forced him to divest himself of all holdings in Halliburton so your contention is just so much liberal talking point hooey. halliburton isn't making anything off of Iraq either. Second, I am trying to figure out exactly what it is Cheney said that is incorrect. Dimocrat failure to recognize the threat of terrorism and their aversion to doing anything about it except sitting down to talk some more does make it more dangerous for Americans because it shows the terrorists the left has no stomach for war. Since the left does most of the carping and whining and their big mouths are on display in the MSM at all times the terrorists believe that is indicative of the country as a whole. Or with Dims that may be hole.

“meanwhile Bin Laden is walking around and now the Taliban are resurging and we don't have enough troops in Afghanistan to stop it - why??”

Well none of us know what bin Laden is doing right now or whether he is even alive. If he is walking around he certainly is not walking down Main Street anywhere. I suppose we should have invaded Pakistan to find him then? You libdrools would have been beside yourselves. Bin Laden has been marginalized and even if he was still in charge it is his minions that are the larger problem - don’t you think? That’s what GWB meant when he said bin Laden wasn’t the focus any longer.

And the reason we are short of troops is because you libdolts spent decades tearing down the size and strength of the military and now you want to blame GWB for its reduced capabilities. The constant disparaging of the military has hurt recruiting and they would certainly never stand for a draft. The hypocrisy of you guys is never-ending and always astounding. And I thought Afghanistan was the right war?

”They are in Iraq forming the "newest democracy in the world" whopeee - and by the way another 1st Cav trooper killed yesterday - I have lost count and for what? What is the objective to bring democracy to a bunch of tribal rag heads who wouldn't know it if it bit them in the fourth point of contact - give me a break - and by the way another 1st Cav trooper killed yesterday - I have lost count and for what? What is the objective to bring democracy to a bunch of tribal rag heads who wouldn't know it if it bit them in the fourth point of contact - give me a break


The attempt to start a democracy in the hope of modernizing a people stuck in the 7th century was a noble one if perhaps misguided. We may have been trying to force them to take leap from the 7th to the 21st century too quickly but I reiterate that libdolt politicians are always so smart in hindsight aren’t they? They had their chance to prevent us going and did not. End of story there. Why do you guys keep whining about that? You libs were preaching the same evidence to depose Saddam that GWB used – long before he even got elected. But of course since it didn’t work out so well they say he lied about all of it to cover their azzes.

It must be great to be a libdolt – never having to say you’re sorry and always blaming someone else when things go wrong. Like children. Now it appears libdrools would have preferred that we had stayed put over here while Saddam murdered his people and jihadis attacked us with impunity. Great plan. And it had worked so well for Clinton. Even knocking down the WTC hasn’t woken you people up. How sad. Your comment about ragheads is quite racist for a liberal. Aren’t you supposed to have compassion for everyone?

Give me a break.

Sardine
One more thing:

Another liberal talking point. 60 percent do not want to bail. They want us to fight to win or get out! There is a difference.

Steve O
You are being too critical.
Next you will be disaproving of Abscam Jack Murtha proposing to end the war in Iraq with;
"a slow bleed off of funds so troops won't have the equipment".

Democrats wanted to set in the driver's seat.
So far they have both feet on the brake and are too terrified to take hold of the steering wheel.

Pelosi is consistent in error.
You can be certain what ever way she turns will be the wrong way.

Warning. Take heed.
Republican hacks like Limbaugh would be wise to start questioning whether the president has a Plan C. Ignoring the oncoming debacle like Limbaugh did while sniping at Democrats with the cut-and-run mantra cost them '06. Allowing men and women to die while Bush took months coming up with a new plan was unforgivable. The GOP better hope there's another plan ready to go right now. If there isn't, the GOP is gone for a generation.

the left hates the US
It's not just that they are not patriotic, they hate the country as conservatives know it. Consider that "adviser" Arkin a couple weeks ago bopping around 60 Minutes and Meet the Press and finally actually announcing how much he hates the military, calling them mercenaries. 30 years ago they hated the draft. Now they hate the vol. army. The truth is they are just haters. Support the troops, balogna. Nancy Pelosi, elected to represent the little guy: she and businessman hubby don't hire union labor for their vineyards and hotel chain. She wants a duplicate of Air Force One with bedroom suites for family and hangers-on because she's third in line for the pres. Good grief. Good for Cheney. I'm glad he's sticking by his original statements and falling all over himself in abject apologies that the left constantly demands of the unpolitically correct. Pelosi and her ilk give aid and comfort to the enemy and then whine and whimper that every bone in their bodies are tatooed red, white, and blue. The white, I believe is true, as in white flag. Years after Vietnam, N. Vietnamese General Diap in Paris said he could never understand how he came to triumph over the US. It was due to the media then and the left then. He could have thanked the NY Times, CBS News and Uncle Waltre Cronkite, SDS, Senator McGovern, the Watergate investigation, and the lack of Fox News, NewsMax, Human Events, and Townhall. The Dems. would love to see another attack on Am. soil, so they could rant even louder about Bush. Bush had the sense to send lawyers to FL in 2000 and not let the Dems. just count Dem. votes in 4 Dem. counties and then declare themselves winners, and for having the guts to fight their "win at any cost" illegal strategy--right now some Dem. woman former candidate in FL is fighting an election result that ended and was certified in Nov.; her current complaint is the electronic voting machines didn't count votes made for her (computer experts say "No")--Bush has faced 6 years of howling revenge at any cost. The left and Pelosi and the Dems. would not care if a nuclear bomb went off in NYC if they could blame Bush. The best thing about a bomb in Times Sq. is it would hopefully get the new NYT building in the process.

Critical Bill,
As a new reader of TH posts, I have read your posts several times now. You're an idiot.

CT
Critical Bill is British.
We have a few more here.
They have no qualms whatever in poking their nose in American Defense matters but don't you dare have the audacity to question anything about Englands's affairs.
I had one very indignant because "an American Republican questioned British gun laws!"
Britain has some great laws to question If you want to play with them.
They confiscate your car if you drive without a seatbelt or while using a cell phone.
Disarming civilians has caused crime to escallate beyond control so they only enforce laws about the most serious crimes.
Burglars have to be caught 4 times before they are prosecuted.
Since they no longer investigate Burglary there is little chance anyone will even be caught once!
Great opportunity for fun here CT.

Be Pro-Choice - Abort A Liberal

I don't question their patriotism. They don't exhibit any signs of patriotism whatsoever. They HATE America more than they hate George Bush. It is obvious everytime they make one of their whiney, limp-wristed comments.

Dear God In Heaven, I pray thee; Spare us their effluvia.

Bobbit
Hey Bobberue - hello the elections? - and no they – the 60 percent - just want us out - I personally don't go along with that as I don't want the great troops to go out of Iraq like we went out of Nam - but please wake up and smell the coffee you are on the river in Egypt - The Dems are off base with the surge and can't see the forest for the trees - most folks - including the GO's don't think it will work - however lets give it a shot - what we can't do and what you guys seem to be iron clad on pursuing is to stay open ended in Iraq - if you want to fight someone's else's war the will let you do it - been there and got the tee shirt

Bobbit
Bobberue - I ain't a libo - and Rumsfeld tore it down and so did Bush Sr. - Clinton? yeah him too - no way did I advocte that - and don't blow off Bin Laden and don't duck the issue - if we weren't in Iraq we would have enough troops to track him down - which we need to do - you have to cut off the snakes head to kill it - not it's tail

Bobbit
The Iraqi's are a tribal people they only want what will advance the tribe in money or other tangible things - democracy is actually alien to them - and again what do we get out of it? How does it advance the objectives of the USA? It is Nam again and again and again - Last unit I was in was the 1st Cav and being in Killeen it is kinda personal when one of them goes down - sorry but that is how it is - the long and short of it is we need to get off Libs/Consv and start doing what is good for America - lets start with health care for all the kids - if we used the money that is going into Iraq we could do that easy - no kid in this country needs to sit in an emergency room for common ailments - what the hell is that ???

CT
Thank you for your reasoned and considered contribution to this thread. Care to expand on why I'm an idiot?

And Myopine
Unless I'm very much mistaken British troops are serving and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan too. I think that gives me every right to comment on US foreign policy, because our current "leader" does whatever George Bush tells him to. You wouldn't bat an eyelid about my natinality if I agreed with your opinions, would you...

vic
I looked at the write-up of the book, "Traitors", that you mentioned. I found it interesting that Whitaker Chambers was listed. He was the former Communist who testified against Alger Hiss and the Communist infiltration of our government, schools and media.

Have you read his autobiography, called "Witness"? It is quite fascinating.
http://tinyurl.com/34bf43

MyOpine
You are quite right about Great Britain. They are much farther along the police state path, than we are here. We're working hard to catch up though.

Dash42
You said, "Or perhaps FDR 'knew' the Japanese would strike on Dec 7 at Pearl and let it happen as an excuse to get us involved in WWII. I discount that thesis as well..."

Possibly you shouldn't. Possibly you should research it and then decide. Here's something to start with:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/index.html

Vic
The "traitors" as you put it, are those that got us into this undefined, endless war, under false premises to further their neocon agenda of nation-building. This war has nothing whatsoever to do with our safety, our security, or 9-11.

Did you ever read, "A Clean Break?

I have made no bones about the matter that I do not think the NEOCONS are operating in the best interests of our country. For some reason, because they call themselves, "neo-conservatives", i.e. (conservative is in their name), we conservatives go to sleep and think they have the same beliefs as we do. They do not. Their roots are in Trotsky and socialism. Irving Kristol, Bill's father, is who apparently coined the term. It is these folks that put together the plans to create a "New Middle East" long before 9-11. 9-11 was used as an opportunity to move forward with these plans. Ever wonder why we don't seem to care about Bin Laden?

Take a look at these:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=746312

A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm (developed in 1996)
http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm


Then, you might glance at this article, called, "Liberate Iraq" from the Weekly Standard. It was published on May 14, 2001. The author was Reuel Gerecht, PNAC's Director of the Middle East Initiative. It may be noteworthy that the Weekly Standard is funded by Rupert Murdoch (owner of Fox News), the editor is Bill Kristol, son of Irving Kristol, who coined the term NEOCON.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraq-20010514.htm

Then, you might be ready to move on to the PNAC's (Project for a New American Century) paper called, "Rebuilding America's Defenses". It was released in 2000.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

You also might want to note the people that belong to PNAC and notice how many of them moved to Bush's administration. Note: PNAC is Bill Kristol's organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

NEOCONS all...........

Icedog
YES, attacking us was an act of war. AGREED! Then, why the heck are we not going after those responsible? Where is Bin Ladin? Most of the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia? The funds sent to Atta appear to have come from Pakistan. Why the heck are we in Iraq, who had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9-11?

You do know, right, that the plans to invade Iraq were drawn up BEFORE 9-11?

Remember the days....
when we declared war, we declared it against a COUNTRY, rather than some undefined catch-call, such as the "war on terrorism"? Why don't we just have a war on "badness"? Both have no boundaries.

when Congress didn't abdicate their responsibility to declare war, nor the President believe he wasn't constitutionally required to have said declaration?


Critical Bill, Gunny
Limeys drink? Not really. I remember one time in Hong Kong in the China Fleet Club we were sitting at a table with some Limey sailors. One was mouthing off about, "You phuckig Yanks didn't win the war. We had it won before you even got in." and a few other things like that. This kept on until the Limey slid down under the table. Then, with the help of a couple of the ship's MARDET, we helped him up, walked him around the corner to a Chinese tattoo joint. Somewhere, in England, today, there is an ex-sailor from the Royal Navy sporting a beautiful American flag on his chest.

Liberty..
You stated:
"You do know, right, that the plans to invade Iraq were drawn up BEFORE 9-11?
(spew Alert..)
No shi*, Sherlock! What planet are you ON?
There are always a chest full of War Plans. To even suggest it was a conspiracy (before 9/11) is just typical of the cynical left. The mentality that the administration lies in wait to attck is f-ing ludicrous!!

What the he** do you think the military does in peacetime?
Here's a hint: Combat readiness Training, and duh, logistics, loading plans,flight training and making da*n sure that in a 24 hour time frame they can deploy anywhere...Surprise,there are probably even plans to invade any US State if it were to become necessary? Can you say California?
You lefties would be the first to p*ss and moan if we were attacked and could not retaliate because of NOT having plans. Go crawl back under your Rock.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.