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Tuesday, February 20, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Racing for Defeat
by David Limbaugh
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I hope those who dismissed the consequences of a Democratic takeover in Congress last November are beginning to see the error of their ways. With each passing day the Democratic leadership is becoming more extreme and urgent in undermining America's cause in Iraq.

President Bush's 21,000-troop surge is well underway, and its accompanying strategy to secure Baghdad proceeds apace. Now, more than ever, our troops need our moral and spiritual support. Now, more than ever, Democrats -- and a disturbing number of Republicans -- are withdrawing it. Their actions are unconscionable.

Two weeks ago, we saw their failed resolution denouncing the build-up of American troops in Iraq. Over the weekend, they tried again, unsuccessfully.

On Friday, the House passed such a resolution by a comfortable vote of 246-182. But when Senate Republicans succeeded in blocking the resolution in the Senate, Democrats threw a tantrum, saying Republicans were stifling debate.

Why is it so hard for these people to tell the truth? Republicans didn't shut down debate. They did the opposite. They refused to allow cloture on the resolution because Democrats refused to allow consideration of other proposals. It is their way or the highway.

Republicans were quite willing to allow a vote on the Democrats' resolution if Democrats would have permitted a vote on the Republican's resolution pledging not to de-fund the troops in Iraq. But Democrats refused because the GOP resolution would have compelled Democrats to take a more meaningful stand and prevented them from having it both ways on the issue.

So far, Democrats have positioned themselves as winners if the surge doesn't work, but protected themselves if it does by stopping short of cutting off funds. But a vote on the GOP resolution would have forced their hand: getting them on the record on the funding issue.

If they voted for the resolution, they would infuriate the base. If they voted against it, it would be much harder for them to pretend they support the troops. That's why it was projected to draw the grudging support of some 75 Democrats. They had to block a vote on it.

Voting for a resolution pledging not to withdraw funding would also show the abject meaninglessness of their resolution opposing the surge. There is no greater dagger to the heart of self-important politicians than to be exposed as insignificant.

Unfortunately for us, these politicians are significant, and so are their disgraceful actions. Despite their semantic gyrations, they are undermining the troops and America's war effort. You don't support the troops by sabotaging their mission and strategy -- a strategy designed by the general in charge no less, whose appointment as commander of the coalition forces in Iraq they just unanimously approved. You don't support the troops by continually giving verbal comfort to the enemy. You don't support the troops by lobbying for their and America's defeat.

If you are still unconvinced these antiwar politicians are damaging the war effort by their words alone, just wait. In their mounting frustration, they may soon go beyond mere words.

Congressman Murtha has threatened to push a shameful series of "slow-bleed" measures to accomplish indirectly what he can't achieve directly: our immediate withdrawal.

Senate Democrats said they would pursue means other than nonbinding resolutions to change Iraq policy. Sen. Chuck Schumer said that Democrats would be relentless in their campaign to end the Iraq war. "There will be resolution after resolution, amendment after amendment Just like in the days of Vietnam, the pressure will mount and the vast majority of our troops will have to be taken out of harm's way."

Not to be outdone, Hillary Clinton, recognizing the futility of her latest effort to appease the foaming base because she refused an outright apology for her Iraq war vote, threw it a slab of red meat this time, calling for a 90-day deadline to begin a troop withdrawal. Hillary also threatened to put some teeth in the proposal, saying if the "redeployment" doesn't start in 90 days, Congress should "revoke authorization for this war."

The world's smartest women watched Sen. Obama being heckled for suggesting the less drastic, though no less arbitrary withdrawal deadline of March 2008. She was not about to miss a chance to leapfrog over the hapless neophyte to the farthest reaches of the left lane.

Democrats deny they have a plan for America's defeat in Iraq. They're correct. They have many such plans, and they're in competition with each other to see who can get it done the quickest. Elections matter.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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you have it backwards
I would not characterize objecting to the troop surge as withdrawing support for our troops. Further, how does sending more troops into battle equate to moral and spiritual support in the first place?

Our troops are best supported by sound policy which respects the price they may pay by giving them competent leadership. Competent leadership has not been demonstrated at any point during this war. Sending more troops into the middle of a civil war with no end in sight is is not a competent decision and fails to respect the sacrifice asked of our troops. Mr. Buchanan would agree.

For this reason, those who voted against the troop surge are showing support for our troops. Those who want to send more of our soldiers to die in Iraq are acting unconscionably and not supporting the troops.


The only thing that
having the majority has given the Democrats is the ability to set the agenda. The Democrats had 1 of their party in the Senate come over to the Repub side. The Repubs had 17 in the house and 7 in the Senate go over to the dark side.

Yes, in this case the Repubs are obstructionists for filibustering for the ability to "debate" other resolutions besides a self-serving propaganda tool for the enemy. Everyone who voted for this so-called non-binding resolution is a traitor.

Mr. Limbaugh; how much difference would it have made if the Repubs had hung on to the Senate or the House. If this type of measure had come up, and please remember that a Repub was a cosponsor, the Repubs who were defeated last November would likely have voted with the Democrats anyway.

Limbaugh missed something...
in his column he forgot to mention that the Republicans were and are split on this war, this resolution and many other things.

You can bet some will be obstructionists, just as some (lots) Democrats have been. You missed the point though.

The (R)s in Congress have gone along with the (D)s for years in how debate will be allowed, or stopped, on the floor. This time the (D)s would not agree to vote on anything else, so the (R)s refused to allow cloture on the vote for the ridiculous non-binding resolution. So what?

This did not stifle debate, on the contrary, it prevented closing debate and forcing a vote. After two weeks you might think everyone was done debating? Does not matter, this is how Congress has been doing business for decades.

Don't like it? Vote them out !

LIstening to Democrats...
You would believe that they somehow knew all along how to fight this war - that they're all full-bird colonels. It's now "Bush's fault that we're losing"; their TREASON had nothing to do with it. What kind of moron believes such contorted logic??? What a bunch of bedwetting idiots these DEMS are. Next time we fight a war, we had better round up the Peace Democrats ahead of time and put them in concentration camps like President Lincoln did, or we can call the next war another Vietnam before it even begins, courtesy of the Party of TREASON. Apparently, with the Libs, if the war is not fought PERFECTLY with not one American soldier killed, then we should all hang it up. If that was the case, America would not even be America; we'd still be The Colonies of Great Britain!!! When the Democratic party is annihilated in this country, America will be great again. The Democratic party has absolutely no relevance to American ideals, but more importantly America's survival. I can't wait to hear the contorted logic Liberals come up with when Liberals and Conservatives alike are blown to bits in shopping malls; what will these idiots say then??? That George Bush blew the malls up, of course! The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of the Democrats and Republicans in the House and Senate who voted against our boys should be thrown in jail for High TREASON - every Goddamned one of them! THERE IS NOTHING REMOTELY AMERICAN ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO OUR BOYS! I can't even stand to see these TRAITORS stand orsit next to the American flag in the halls of AMERICAN government.

Kimmy Dimmy
Kimberly writes: Tuesday, February, 20, 2007 12:35 AM
"Shoe on other foot?
Republicans are the villain 'obstructionists' now, but you'd never know it from this column. Suddenly, with the tables turned and the Dems in control, the Republicans can obstruct all they want, according to Limbaugh..."
***************************************

Oh course, what did you expect after years of the Dimmycrat(ick)s acting like big babies, obstructing on Capital Hill? Did you expect Republicans to roll over and play dead?

Not only do I expect to give the Demsters back in kind, I expect them all to do it, and to be more effective at it.

You see, I am convinced that the Leftists who have taken over the Democratic Party are determined to pull the country down around our ears in order to replace it with Socialism.

I consider anyone who cooperates with them to be traitors to this country.

I am tired of everyone tip-toeing around, reassuring these leftist drama queens that we are not calling them unpatriotic.

Well, I DO call them unpatriotic.

In fact, I call them traitors, especially the swine who have been actively working to ensure our defeat in Iraq.

Well I don't intend to sit on my hands.

I plan to actively work to ensure the defeat of the Democrat(ick) Party in 2008!

tanabear
have you ever sat through a meeting with Bush and his advisors? have you ever heard or seen anything connected with what is going on in iraq and afghanistan in person?
as i have said many times before, until you have been here and seen it in person, all you are doing is repeating second hand information.

Mountain Rose
You say, "You see, I am convinced that the Leftists who have taken over the Democratic Party are determined to pull the country down around our ears in order to replace it with Socialism."

How can you put all the blame on the Democratic Party, when it is our own Republican administration in office that is letting our borders be overrun by illegal aliens and selling our country out to a North American Union?

Yes, we are being sold out to socialism, but it has been going on a long time and it is not just the Democrats that are to blame.

Kimberly- sorry to disappoint
Kimberly writes: Tuesday, February, 20, 2007 12:41 AM
and btw
Even Condi is saying that the debate in Congress is not 'undermining' our troops, that they are "not stupid" - her words. Enough of using our troops to make political points for the surge. Enough. But Limpbaugh apparently hasn't gotten Rice's memo.
**************************************

Sorry to disappoint you Kimmy Dimmy, but we still live in a free country where people are permitted to think for themselves, and not just follow the Party line.

I realize that the Stalinist Left is working hard to silence desent with the Orwellian "Fairness Doctrine," but fortunately up to now we can have our own opinions.

So what if Condi has been hanging out too long with the Koolaid drinkers in the State Department? Big effing deal!

I wouldn't describe the Dims in Congress as stupid, but I wouldn't say they are brilliant either. Rather, I think they are sly tricksters that mean our country great harm.

Liberty- Who is worse?
Liberty writes: Tuesday, February, 20, 2007 3:03 AM
Mountain Rose
"...How can you put all the blame on the Democratic Party, when it is our own Republican administration in office that is letting our borders be overrun by illegal aliens and selling our country out to a North American Union?"
*****************************

This may be true, but the Left is worse because they are acting out of fanatical ideology, while the Repubs are acting out of foolisheness.

It is very important that the decent citizens of this country wake up to the harm that is being done.

I fear, however, that as the cities become over-run by illegal ailens, the average conservative just avoids the conflict by moving further and further out into the suburbs. They just want to raise their families in peace, which is admirable, but not when they should be participating in taking their country back.

And yes, not just from the Stalinist Orwellian Left, but also from the suicidal Globalists.

surge
Like We're increasing the troop strength beyound any numbers before? No NO NO! The highest numbers of troops was around 160,000 with the surge it will be around 155,000 or less. The increase amount this admininstration has always resisted is the ones that would bring the total to 200,000 -400,000. That resistence has not gone away. We downsized the force before our charges ( both the Iraq military and police and the Iraq leadership) were ready to fulfil their responsibilities. We (U.S. leadership) realized the mistake and are now correcting the problem. By the time the 08 elections role around lessons learned by Iraq and the U.S. citizenry should have republican approval ratings up around the 70% rate and George should be able to handpick the next neocon candidate for a landslide victory oh yeah along with another smashing victory in the legislature

tanabear- Dims up to old tricks
tanabear writes: Tuesday, February, 20, 2007 1:44 AM
Clueless.
"Is there a bigger Bush groupie than David Limbaugh? Yes, but not many. Let me see if I understand this. Bush for many years did not want to increase the troop level in Iraq, even though many generals and other military advisors thought it wise..."
************************************

President Bush falls again for the Democrat(ick) Party's trickery.

He didn't learn from his father's experience that the duplicitious Demsters will pretend to cut a deal with you and then turn on you and tear you to pieces like hungry jackels.

This , I believe is exactly what the Dems have been up to for years, calling on an increase of troops. Once the hypocritical knaves got into power, the President, hoping to show a "bipartasian spirit," did what they have been asking for.

Right on cue, they start the yammering about how the troop surge is the worst thing the President could have done.

Just like Bush 41's permitting taxes to be raised, all over again.

The treacherous creeps tried the same thing by clammering for a draft, but fortunately, the President did not take the bait. Probably because Charlie Rangel looks like a greasy used car salesman, and only the most gullible would cut a deal with hem.

Mountain Rose
You said, "This may be true, but the Left is worse because they are acting out of fanatical ideology, while the Repubs are acting out of foolisheness."

Are you referring to our public servants or the citizenry? If it is the public servants, I firmly disagree. They know dang well that our country is being overrun by illegal aliens and many of them know that our country is being merged with Canada and Mexico. If they do not, they are stupid and negligent.

If you are referring to the citizenry, you may well be right. However, it's not really an excuse, do you think? I've seen Kimberly actually make some decent points about the Neocons and the Iraq war, but no one seems to give what she says any credence, because she is aligned with the Democratic party. What I don't understand is why this is. If it is true, it shouldn't matter who says it. The facts of the matter should be laid on the table and evaluated.

I'm not sure if they ever will be, because some are so wed to being "right" on the Iraq war that they will never consider that they may have been duped. Somehow, it is too hard for people to face.

Just as you believe there are some on the right that are acting out of foolishness, don't you think there could be some Democrats that are doing just the same thing?

Up until the last few years, I never really had friends that were Democrats, because to be honest, I didn't like to hear much of what they had to say. I finally decided that was stupid and decided not to automatically reject someone whose political views differed than mine. I thought surely we could avoid talking about politics. One of these people I met at the gym. She is the nicest person you could ever know and would give you the shirt off her own back, but she also practically pledges allegiance to the UN, not to mention the Clintons.

I, on the other hand, want the U.S. to get out of the UN and then, boot the UN out of our country. As far as Bill and Hillary go, I think they both belong in prison. Needless to say, we try to dodge talking about politics, because I simply cannot stand it when she bashes George Bush, while at the same time sings the praises of either Bill or Hillary. I even find myself sticking up for Dubya and you are well aware that I am not fond of George in the slightest. She's not an evil person, nor does she want our country to fall.... she just doesn't see what is going on. One day, she will, but then it will be too late.

Could this be what is going on between some here and Kimberly?

The same thing can be said about those on the right who refuse to see what the Neocons and globalists (who are on both sides of the aisle) are doing to our country.

In my opinion, the division is not between Republican and Democrat, it is statists vs. those believing in individual liberty and Constitutional government.

Liberty - regarding Kimberly
People do not listen when an agent of the enemy speaks the truth because they are usually wrapping around a corrosive lie.

Remember that even the Devil quoted scripture, trying to deceive.

We do not pay attention to Kimberly for good reason; she only means us harm!!!

Mtn Rose, Liberty
Hey MR,
I looked and looked yesterday for the screaming monkey...nowhere to be found. But, like clockwork, out she comes when a Limbaugh,Coulter,or Malkin column is posted. We got into a p*ssing match-you know, us vitriolic and hate spewing conservatives!!! Even when a column is not related to Bush, she finds a way to screech. I am sick and tired of her Sh**. She knows nothing but hate...She doesn't know how not to use nasty words to explain her position and never listens to anything,even if it comes from a soldier(sawgunner) himself. She even insinuated, accused(she told me to get my facts straight-that literal translation thing for libs again)that Sawgunner was not real!!
Liberty...
Nope, Kimberly doesn't get it. Because "last time she checked,she was still free" and didn't ask any soldier to make any sacrifices for her "in this unjust war." Not only that, if you do support the war and you haven't served, you are a FU(that is my word),or a coward...and she always wants to know when you talk back to her in support of Bush/war did YOU serve. She never has anything constructive to say and when it comes to her cavalier attitude about freedom, I don't give her a pass,ever. Just ask the regulars...I like to call her a screaming monkey, and then recite a little peom I wrote just for her.
The dems want defeat and that is all there is to it.

06 rests on the Party
The outcome of the 06 elections rests squarely on the shoulders of the President and Hastert. If they wanted conservative support they should have remembered who put them in power. If Iraq becomes another "Jihadistan" the current leadership bears as much blame as the Dems. An aside for the K street boys and the blue hairs. Keep offering up the Rudy/Raymond Shaw show and watch Hillary roll into the White House in 09 with the biggest left wing congressional majority since 1932.

No person in their Right Mind would
disagree with this article. An idiot like Kimberly or Tanabear in their Loonie Left Mind has to disagree or they would have to climb off of the behinds of their favorite loonie left moonbat political leaders. Pee Lousy, Hitlary, Obamanation, FrankenKerry, Antichrist Edwards, and the rest of the doofuss liberal left are so ready to throw in the towel and have our troops come back defeated JUST so they can blame the loss on GWB. I hope Americans are not so stupid that they can't see this as plain as day. I mean I know that there are wackos out there that are hardline Democrats, but I am talking about the 80% of Americans that are either Moderate or Conservative. Why anyone though puttings these idiots in the Senate and House would be better that the seemingly deaf GOP is beyond me. I hope that the GOP got the message loud and clear but I fear that they did not.

MR and Liberty
"He didn't learn from his father's experience that the duplicitious Demsters will pretend to cut a deal with you and then turn on you and tear you to pieces like hungry jackels."

I like the point you make here and you could easily replace the word demsters with commies and get the same thing.

Liberty:
We are marching to socialism and the dems are the ones mostly behind that. Sure, there are some repubs in step too, but there are a lot of them who are not.

Peppermint
I agree that there are more redeemable Republicans than there are Democrats. For me though, I am pretty disgusted with the Republicans, especially those going around "claiming" to be conservative, when they clearly, ARE NOT. They have practically ruined the conservative movement. True conservatives feel betrayed and feel they no longer have a party. In my opinion, I don't think we've had a party for a long time, actually.

Bottom line, Peppermint, I believe in cleaning my own house first. For obvious reasons and also because I DO think there are more salvageable people from the Republican party.

As I said earlier, I still think the better division is between a statist (someone who believes in an all powerful federal government) vs. someone who believes in a limited constitutional government and individual liberty. Isn't that really what it comes down to?

It used to be that liberals believed in the former; conservatives believed in the latter.

Since there are so many going around waving the conservative flag these days, but whose acts are opposite to conservatism, perhaps we should all lay out what we believe to be conservative ideals and judge these people accordingly.

Get A Set
Until the Republican party goes back to Republican values they will continue to have problems. I have voted Republican since 1968 when I was in Vietnam. What we need are not new ideas but to maintain our values. Other than Newt Gingrich there is not one Repulican candidate already running that I could vote for. I travel the country on business and believe me I'm not alone with these thoughts. Hell, Republicans are never going to get the black vote or the Hispanic vote so why are we passing more give away programs. If Republican values are maintained they will get the votes needed to beat the dims.

Liberty
I keep close track of what my congressman votes for and I see from his votes he remains conservative.
Now, my senators are rubbish, one is a rhino up for re-election and I hope he gets voted out. The other senator is a dem that got voted in because the other rhino was that, a rhino. But, the good people of my state thought it would be better to have the dem.
Now, that was a big mistake because that guy is doing all the usual dem voting.
I will never vote for a dem. Those that were voted in in 2006 have proven themselves to be just puppets put up by RedNancy, UpChuck Schumer, and they have no power, these so called blue dogs. So, where are we now with a majority dem in the house?

fate of treason committers on hill
All anti-american,anti-military,anti-victor
individuals(including 24 lily livered spineless
republicans)on Capitol Hill should be subject
to the WWII penalty for treason(defined as
not supporting our troops along with giving
aid and comfort to the enemy:in this case the
terrorists)which was summary execution with
no trial needed. If I had my way,this would
have happened starting with RedNancy Pelosi
and Jackass Murtha closely followed by the
rest of the worms.

Peppermint
I have no doubt that you keep a close watch on your reps. No doubt at all.

The Democrats.... no, I'm not particularly happy with them being the majority. Not at all. Especially since the Democrats will fit neatly into Jorge's plans for giving the illegal aliens, amnesty. Plus, they might actually get that horrendous hate bill passed, etc.

But at least it might wake up some of the Republicans to really take a look at what is going on. Because, it always seems to me that so many go to sleep when someone they think is in their ranks is elected. I venture to say if we had a Democrat as President right now, real conservatives would have been raising all heck if that person had tried to do 1/5 of what this Republican President has done.

Tell me, were you happy with what the Republican-led Congress was doing? I certainly was not. If I had my way, I would have given over half of them pink slips.

I find the whole thing very disheartening, actually. But, this is the only country we have and we have to fight for it and what made it great.

Pinning the blame
Are you honestly trying to blame where we are in the war right now, on the vote on the non-binding resolution against the surge, that happened a couple days ago? Seriously.

In your minds, who did you blame up until that vote?

Another Vietnam
When we first went into Iraq, liberals said it would be another Vietnam. At the time I thought it was a prediction. Now I realize that it was a promise.

They are indeed determined that we lose this war. Anything to hurt Bush. I've never seen such unreasoning hatred.

GOP= Whig Party
The Republican Party under GWB seems intent on political suicide. Pandering to citizens of other countries illegally in our country while telling us we must be vigilantes if we object to illegal aliens ignoring our borders and laws. Mel Martinez is there to ensure an open borders candidate in '08. The cheap labor express will be kept running, regardless of the consequences. GOP-RIP

einahteb

Is Murtha looking for a repeat of April 30, 1975?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thank you kimbat
Yes, Thank you kimbat for admitting that the Dems/Libs where obstructionist when they where in the minority.

perceptions vs. realities
reply to: Take Back The Government--
Take a Valium... ultimately, our troops fight in part to preserve our right to free speech... gotta agree with Patrick Henry's famous axiom there. I heard that rationale (don't knock the war effort) about Nam, but our people died for 10 more years after LBJ knew it was hopeless... and it proved to have been totally pointless at cosmic cost.

reply to: tanabear and Liberty--
On the mark as usual, folks. Some fuss about 'Crats being traitors even as neoCONNED Chicken George is the quisling proud champion of the North American Union. Presidente Jorge presses relentlessly for MexAmeriCanada, even agreeing surreptitiously to send S.S., etc. down to Mexico. He has Gonzales persecute border guards, thereby sending the WORST POSSIBLE message to all. Comprende espanol, y'all?! Dubya is a traitor and should be impeached for nonfeasance AND malfeasance, except that the same Conspiracy Of Evil [miscreant employers; the PC, open borders, one world, multicultural, "they will become new big entitlement govt. voters" ilk; labor leaders] powers also control the 'Crats.

Some bray about "stopping terrorists over there so we won't have to fight them here." My God, they can come here and do as they please because Dubya has abandoned his sworn duty to defend and protect our borders. The REAL threat to America's welfare, especially socio-economic and cultural, is the 20 million+ we have allowed to invade and permeate ILLEGALLY, and welcomed with social services and jobs to sustain themselves! [Solution: require a tamper-proof I.D. for NON-citizens to do anything here... it will stanch border crashers AND Visa violators.]

With regard to the M.E., the duped conservatives simply have never taken the time to understand what the neoCONS TRULY believe in and aspire to bring about. It is they who brand traditional America First conservatives (like Pat B. and me) Paleocons and use various red herring ad hominem epithets [anti-Semites, moonbats, goofballs, wearing tinfoil hats] to try to discount close scrutiny of their ulterior agenda. Pat may be the only traditional conservative with columns here... the rest are generally neoCON group think proselytizers: May, Krauthammer, Gaffney (all PNAC members), Prager, Barone, Prelutsky, Morris, Fields, West, Medved, Blankley, e.g.

Our own Defense Dept. now says that Feith, Perle, Wolfowitz, Wurmser, Libby in Dubya's inner circle distorted reality in order to take us to war in Iraq. And why Iraq instead of where the real sources of 9/11 were? Why Iraq when Saddam and Osama were adversaries? Why neglect the pursuit of Al-Queda in Afghanistan to nation build in Iraq? Because the neoCON agenda had called for taking out Iraq for Israel's safety beginning back in 1996-- see PNAC, AIPAC. Simply read what these guys and their confreres (Kagan, Kristol, Podhoretz, etc.) OPENLY advocated.

Aside from their M.E. agenda (REAL goal to establish permanent AMERICAN bases in Iraq to cover Israel's flank), the neoCONS also tried to distort conservative fiscal policy agendas with this "compassionate conservatism" tripe (read: big government pig wearing lipstick]. A'int no way Reagan would have advocated boondoggles like Rx Care for Seniors and No Bureaucrat Left Behind. Reagan's veto pen was active while Presidente Jorge's seemed to have run out of ink.
NeoCONS had simply glommed onto the conservative wave because they wanted to be influential, but at their core, their agenda has been neither conservative nor in the best interests of America First.

We should engage in wars ONLY as a LAST RESORT with a CERTAIN PURPOSE, fought relentlessly against a SPECIFIC ENEMY, and NEVER when we are really getting into a policing action amid a smoldering civil war over ground of no value to America among people who do not like us or understand us. And we should never again let the neoCONS cook the intelligence books. Fully 90% of Islamics have never trusted America and consider us a pawn of Israel-- we have only reinforced their perceptions by this foolish folly foray into Arabia which has really engendered instability and fomented animus toward us at immense cost to America. Al-Queda is rebounding, folks! Some mission accomplished!

This war in Iraq
could have been finished long ago. The dems started screaming "viet nam" as soon as the shooting started. Do you really think the terrorists don't know what goes on here? Do you think if the dems had kept their collective mouths shut, the terrorists would still be killing our men? There was a reason FDR enacted the WW2 laws on speech that he did, and that was to keep the enemy from being comforted by the thought that we were DEVIDED. And communications are much more instant these days. The dems in DC and some republicans, along with the likes of Jayne and Cindy and their followers are doing the work of Tokyo Rose.

Gambler's syndrome
The addicted gambler always thinks he's about to win. "Just one more bet and I could win back everything." The Bush strategy in Iraq is like this. They keep hoping that another round of the same strategy, maybe with a 15% "surge", will win.

At some point the gambler's loving family must do a painful intervention -- pulling the helpless addict away. Democrats have now to do the same service for the country they love.


Its amusing to watch the diehards squirm
Limbaugh and the rest of you clueless Bush groupies just don't get it. You had the chance to build a conservative movement in this country that would govern for another generation and Bush blew it.

You had every chance to pull the fat out of the fire ... You could have sent more troops to Iraq when it really made a difference. Instead you claimed that people who suggested that were somehow unpatriotic. You could have clamped down and imposed law and order on the country after the fall of Baghdad, but instead you snickered when Rummy said "stuff happens" and ingnored the insurgency when it would have been easy to snuff it out. You could have listened to the US military when they unanimously said that disbanding the entire Iraqi army was a huge mistake, but instead you let Rummy and Bremmer send thousands of armed, unemployed Iraqi soldiers into the waiting arms of the insurgents.

I could go on and on, but you diehards don't listen to facts or face the truth that the mess we have in Iraq is your own creation. You whine and blame the democrats for your own mistakes and refuse to correct them. In reality they have never stopped Bush from doing anything he wanted to do in that war. You cannot cite a single instance where they have. In reality it is YOU conservatives that have made such a mess out of Iraq that there is no longer any good outcome for the US. You just keep redefining "victory" to the least bad of many bad possible results.

Then you wonder why the American people voted you out of congressional leadership. Its amazing how stupid and blind people can be. None of you can dispute any of the facts I stated above. You just ignore them and continue to whine like spoiled babies. You don't deserve to lead anymore. Its time to go to the back of the bus and we will find a new driver.

Its less than two years until we replace this fool of a President and counting.

Slacker
I agree with some of what you said, however, to think that all we need to do is replace Bush is short-sighted, at best.

Do you honestly think Hillary, or any of the Democratic front-runners would be better? The big difference as I see it, is that they are more up front about their socialist, globalist ways and don't hide behind the lie of being conservative.

Basically, they agree with each other and are taking us down the same path.

Politics and Iraq
There are many ardent supporters of President Bush here, and good for you.

I take offense to Mr. Limbaugh's column and the tone of it.

I would truly like to know one person in the United States, of whatever political persuasion, who wants to see the US defeated in Iraq. No one is looking for this country to be less safe. Every time this argument is used, the offending party only makes their opposition stronger and more fervent.

Dissension from a political course is not the same as disagreeing with a military course and support of the troops.

I for one, thought that the President made a HUGE mistake for political reasons that has cost the US in lives and money. When this war was started, or even two years ago, the President should have gone to Congress to institute a DRAFT! Drafted 250,000 to 300,000 additional troops to go into Iraq and Afghanistan. Huge show of force and resolve the situation quickly.

He didn't. That's HIS fault for not having the wherewithal to take that political risk. Keep in mind that the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress at the time.

Now President Bush's plans are not working. If the surge works great. But you don't go into something such as this with only one plan. Contingency planning is normal for just about anything.

So how do you propose that a dissenting opinion be expressed without it being consider "traitorous" or "surrendering"?

Like all fashion trends
the 'surrender mentality' will crescendo and crash, coming down on the heads of those who now oppose our involvement in Iraq. We can only hope that it does no lasting damage to our troops or our mission.

Limbaugh is right, so many of our elected officials want to have it both ways. Recently omnicient, these surrender monkies are simply a herd of followers with no courage. If they were leaders of courage, they would vote in a binding way.

Watch what happens when they have to vote on funding. They will not have the courage to cut it off because they would then be responsible for the defeat for which they are so heavily invested.

The last good deemocrat
we had was Harry Truman, I have to flip a coin on the last good Republican its a toss between Eisenhower and Regan but even Ford was better than any of these turkeys of either party running now.

to any and all
Please define what "victory" in Iraq will look like to you.

dogjudge
Dissenting opinions are all fine and good, but when members of the Congress...the same Congress that authorized this war...start playing this kind of game, it is borderline treasonous. the tactics proposed by Jack Murtha, the so called "slow bleed", are all about defeat...not victory! Trying to pass a resolution, binding or not, to basically declare the war a failure is not in any way supporting the troops. It is instead a sign to those troops, and a signal to the enemy that we lack the POLITICAL will to see this through.

I would have much less problem if the Democrats were acting out of honestly held principle, like Barak Obama who never supported this action in the first place. But it is obvious to any impartial observer that this is simply naked politics, nothing more. This is the Democrats saying to hell with our security and safety in a rush to score political pints and hand Bush a political defeat. This is who they are now, and who they have always been.

And what good would a draft have done? Even with a draft, the new soldiers have to be trained, equipped, and outfitted for war. What were supposed to do, wait until all the logistics for the draftees was worked out before we went after the enemy? A better plan wold have been to move those troops securing western Europe into position to fight in this conflict...but that was the one "redeployment" that the Dems and media would not countenance!

Liberty
posted (regarding Democrats), "that they are more up front about their socialist, globalist ways."


Pleae tell me when the Democrats were ever "up front" about their socialist ways. They hide it behind their disingenuous "save the children" or "save the planet" rants, trying to get us to turn over our freedoms for the sake of the snail darters and spotted owls.

Globalism: define that word, please. To me, it's the concept of planet-wide economy, all countries either buying or selling goods and services. That's free-market capitalism.

Of course, to socialists, the LAST thing they want is globalism. Socialists want absolute control over the economy (none of that messy free-market, thank you). The socialists want to tax and tariff all goods and services for two reasons: control and money. They are NOT "up front" about those reasons; instead, they say they want to "protect" American jobs.

Yet they want open borders so that cheap labor walks in and takes what used to be entry-level jobs that Americans filled.

There is nothing "up front" about the Socialist-Democrats. It's all demogoguery and slurs about "conservatives".

Democrats + Republicans = Polarization o
Does it really surprise anyone that each party is "checking" each other in the congressional halls! Comment after comment in this thread suggests that most are entwined by the minutia and overlooking the significant.

As Grandpa used to say, if you want to understand "why", look no further than the money trail.

Iraq will continue to be a boondoggle because the REAL objective in the middle east is MEFTA (Middle East Free Trade Area).

30 years of trade agreements led to the European Union. In the states we are witnessing the erosion of our borders through SPP.

In the end there will be three governing bodies - the EU, the NAU and MEFTA. All controlled by the UN and all under socialist rule. Until that happens it will be American lives and American dollars that are used to satisfy the globalist demigods appetite for power.

The Republicans and the Democrats are owned by these global elitists and there is no salvaging of these parties....period.

Stop being distracted by the minutia and educate yourselves. Read the CFR's "Building a North American Community". Read the UN's report on sustainable development. Get a realistic take on what all these trade negotiations will do to "your country" by visiting either the August Review (http://www.augustreview.com/) or the jbs website at http://www.jbs.org/nau

Wake up, get involved and take the steps necessary to reel in these sociopaths. Hitler wrote Mein-Kampf and no one listened. individuals like Neville Chamberlain had the power yet failed to act. Will you be part of this nightmare or will you take back your country by identifying people of sound morality and ethics, encouraging them to run for office and fostering in a political party that truly represents "the people".

http://www.constitutionparty.com

wayward
I wholeheartedly agree. Wonderful post.

What's to trade
Not to sound insulting phxvet but trade has two aspects. Buying and selling.


Lynne
Diversionary tactic?

You and others have written reams about how we must keep fighting to "win" and you are sitting there telling me that it is difficult for you to say what "winning" looks like to you? Perhaps you should give it some thought.

Feel free to "eye roll" all you want. It is a valid question.

Flagwaver
I must be confused. Up until January of this year wasn't it the Republicans who controlled both houses of Congress and the Presidency? They had the power to enact just about anything they WANTED to enact, despite whatever the Democrats did.

You ignore my point about the draft. Yes, it would have taken time to ramp up these extra troops, but as long as this war has gone on, we've had that time. The Republicans could have done this and possibly ended this war sooner.

What the Democrats did or did not do four years ago is immaterial. President Bush and the Republicans have done whatever they wanted. They are the ones running the war! At this point, it isn't going very well.

There is no longer a viable MILITARY solution to the problem. You've got three groups. Militarily you can do one of three things. Contain and separate each group. Beat all three groups into submission. Force the three groups to work together. Do you have any other options? If so, I'd like to hear them.

Militarily, all three of these options are no longer viable. So what are we to do? Continue along the same failed course, or come up with a viable plan to get out of there?

This isn't surrender! Who would we be surrendering to? This is saying that these folks MUST solve their own problems. We can't force a solution upon them.

I'm sure you disagree, but I'd like to see you reply to my two questions.

- What other options to solving the current sectarian situation.
- Who do we surrender to? Who would be defeating us? And don't give me "them" or "those who hate the US", I want a definitive group.

phxvet
Ok, thanks. How do you think that's going to work by putting one faction in power over the others?

Conservatism Wins Elections!
Most of the folks "fired" in the last election were fired for not securing the border, fixing social security, and then for being spendthrifts with our money.

Had the border with Mexico been resonably secured and protected up to and including humiliating the Mexican Government the election outcome may well have been different.

Had Social Security been fixed or at least a very reasonable plan laid out and demonstrated to the people in spite of the blocking efforts of the Democrats the election outcome may well have been different.

Had Republicans acted as conservatives with the budget and not been such spendthrifts with our money the election outcome may well have been different.

Had Republicans accomplished more than one of these they might have even picked up a few seats here and there.

We can't go back and undo what is done. Republicans need to have a conservative "prayer meeting", repent, and come back home to the base that can make or break them.

Conservative voters are not likely to vote for Democrats ever but they cannot be counted on to vote for Republicans who aren't conservatives.

GEM




Trade
phxvet, all nations both have and need commodities. Whether oil.textiles, automobiles or microchips we need each others products. Elitists want to control all products and the fruits of individual labor. In their vision there will be a ruling class and a working class. Much like feudal europe, don't ya think!

referendum on Iraq?
If the Dems really wanted the '06 election to be a referendum on the Iraq war, they wouldn't have ranted about "Republican corruption" (ignore Cold Cash "I'm Innocent" Jefferson) Mark Foley and the danger to Congressional aides (ignore Stubbs--no praise him in death), etc. (To their credit, they didn't rant so much--just a little--about the excessive spending of the Republicans; let's not remind the voters of what the Dems love to do.)

As far a referendum on Iraq, see the victory of Joe Lieberman over his one-issue ardently anti-war opponent.

Illegal immigration wasn't really an issue, since Rs and Ds were identical--but the Rs paid because we expect more of them.

The Ds are now unapologetically for defeat/surrender. They're giving support to the enemy; there was no other purpose for their non-binding resolution. They hate America's strength and apparently enjoyed the nationwide depression we all suffered after Vietnam, through the Carter administration, ending only when Reagan re-awakened national pride. What a great feeling that was!!

The Ds are working hard to bring back that self-hatred Americans felt after Vietnam. I'm pulling for Democrat defeat in this effort.

I'm heartened by the fact that every time the Ds have tried to paint our troops as criminals, as Kerry did so well during Vietnam, they've been met with...silence, at best. Even the MSM couldn't help them, though they tried their best. So now they "support the troops." But would like to bring about a "slow bleed." ???

GO U.S.A.!!

RNC & GOP responsible for 2004

....David ...

....the RNC abandoned their base by supporting too many RINOs who ended up voting like Democrats ...Arlen Specter and Lincoln Chaffee come to mind ...

....If the RNC won't support conservative candidates then they can't complain when they lose elections to the Democrats .....COLOSSUS

Newspeak
Liberal defense of the campaign to defeat America is positively Orwellian! Newspeak lives: Pulling support is support; treason is patriotism, etc, etc.

It seems the need to actually defend this country from enemies, foreign and domestic, escapes the liberal mind entirely. The life-and-death reality faced by troops in the field is certainly beyond their ken. They blather about "pulling our boys out of harm's way," while crippling their ability to defend themselves and giving unlimited aid to the people trying to kill them. But if it damages the hated George Bush, it's a holy cause; patriotism writ large!

Let's cut to the chase:
Question 1: Would you liberals mind another 9/11-caliber attack, or perhaps a nuclear strike in a major American city if it served to bring down George Bush?

Question 2: If your dearest friend were taken hostage by Islamic "freedom fighters," and you witnessed the video of his/her execution by decapitation with a dull knife, would that be sufficient provocation to advocate armed engagement with said "freedom fighters," and unwavering support of the troops bearing those arms on the front lines?

A side note on the flood of illegals entering the country: Very few on either side of the aisle seem to be seriously interested in taking effective action on this. Don't write it off as just another of the sins of George Bush; no Democrat has done anything either. (illegals generally vote Democrat, you know!)

phxvet
"All they have to trade is oil"??? So you don't mind if Iran takes over Iraq and controls the oil?

I assume you don't drive a car or purchase goods that are delivered by truck.

Geez.

Democrat for Life......NOT!!!!!!!
Now the Repubs have a lot to make up for in my mind, but there is one ABSOLUTE thing that I am sure of now that the Democrat Party is the Treason and Sedition Party....I WILL NEVER VOTE DEMOCRAT EVER, EVER, EVER AGAIN. In fact, they have inspired me make sure that I will volunteer for thier competition with every coming election. We need to remove as many democrats from office with each election cycle as possible!

Apple doesn't fall far from the tree
We are engaged in a long and hard global war brought on by Radical Islam. The libdemos preach failure, and defeat, but avoid mentioning the atrocity of 9/11 or the acts of war by Radical Islam against the US that preceded 9/11. They avoid talking about the consequences of defeat.

Senator Ted Kennedy, as the leading spokeman for the libdemos raves on about "Bush's War"(really America's war), pull out the troops, cant have democracy in the Middle East, let them fight their own wars, etc., etc., ad nauseum. He talks and acts as though he has all the answers, he clearly believes he and Congress should micro-manage this world war against Radical Islam. The congressional libdemos by their words and actions are not only abandoning our troops but urge what is in effect an abandonment of the Middle East.

Now let's listen to Ted's Father, Ambassador Joe Kenndy as reported in the Nov.10, 1940 issue of the Boston Globe. Old Joe was a leading isolationist and ultimately was "asked to resign" by Roosevelt because of statements like this, "People will call me a pessimist but democracy is finished in England. It may be here.", "I know more about the European situation than anybody else.", He railed against sending US troops to Great Britain for a useless cause. Yes, Old Joe, Ted's Father pushed for abandoning Europe to Hitler. Apparently he said little if anything about the consequences of England's defeat or a truce between England and Hitler. Just ponder that for a moment.
Yes,the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

einahteb- xtreme hatred of the Left
einahteb writes: Tuesday, February, 20, 2007 8:45 AM
Another Vietnam
When we first went into Iraq, liberals said it would be another Vietnam. At the time I thought it was a prediction. Now I realize that it was a promise.
They are indeed determined that we lose this war. Anything to hurt Bush. I've never seen such unreasoning hatred.
***********************************

Yes, to quote Theoden from Lord of the Rings: "What can men do against such reckless hate?"

And I would reply, we should stand against it!

Right On, Lydia!
Iraq keeps being the booger-bear for the 'Pubs losing the '06 election. That is only half of it. Had they put forth an EFFORT to control the border and had they gone after the employers of illegals, they would not have lost both houses and may not have lose either.
When your president stands in front of a man who lost his job to an illegal and says illegals are just here for jobs no American will take he and his party kinda lose favor with that man. When he stands and repeats over and over that islam is a peaceful religion all the Americans who remember the Cole, Beruit Marine barracks, Daniel Pearl, a couple of embassies here and there as well as 9/11 kinda lose faith in his ability to govern.
Mr. Limbaugh; whatever reason you fawn over the president so much is well hidden but your remarks about the '06 voters is as flawed as your kow-towing to the president. It didn't matter what the voters did on '06. Re-elect RINO's who vote Democrat or stay home or vote Democrat. Things were going to go the left's way, either way. What the voters DID DO in '06 was start the housecleaning process and send a message that the housecleaning will continue in '08 so the 'Pubs had better put up some REAL conservatives in the primaries. Unless they are so attached to Daddy Warbucks and General Bullmoose they do not need their old conservative base.

Limbaugh
Maybe I missed something but what I got of the article wasn't that he was bashing the Dems,I thought he was pointing out that they coudn't have it both ways.The Repubs wanted the vote changed and seperated so everyone would be exposed to how they are relly voting.Long article if I'm incorrect please correct me!

Democrats Will End The Iraq War..
Which is exactly what the majority of the citizens of the U.S. voted for at midterms by turning over control of Congress to the democrats. Democrats are doing exactly what their constituents expect of them which is to change the direction of this war and end it.

So therefore exactly what do republicans expect? They act as if midterm results never happened or are irrevelant. Bush wants a "victory" in Iraq so he defiantly escalates the war thru his "surge" that alienates even more people against him as his party clings in blind loyalty to "Stay the course" while watching the ship of Iraq slowly sink.

Dems keep up the pressure on Bush and let him and the repubs "stay the course to victory"..
We will most assuredly have a democratically controlled Congress and Whitehouse in 2008.

Tanabear, Kimberly and Left Angle
Are you really the same leftie person using pseudonyms because all comments under these names are dumb, dumb and dumber. You don't give a damn about the soldiers or the Iraqis who bothered to risk their lives to vote.

You are clearly examples of the "useful idiots" a la Lenin and the Commies.

Left Angle
Americans didnt vote for aid and comfort to the enemy. A majority doesnt like the war, no doubt. There is a difference between not liking the war vs. outright surrender which is what the Dems are doing AND HAVE BEEN PROMOTING FOR NEARLY FOUR YEARS. I think Americans just want a quicker solution in Iraq. However, they dont really understand what we are fighting and just how long its going take. The combination of this administrations' screwups during the occupation with the democrats constant worship at the altar of Benedict Arnold has brought us to this point in Iraq. One wonders where we would be if we had actually occupied Iraq with sufficient forces and actually fought the enemy combined with ALL of our elected officials understanding we are AT WAR and behaving as such.

phxvet
Interesting. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. You know that, right?

phxvet: Dems know who the enemy is...
which is why dems want to quit wasting time mired in the middle of a civil war in Iraq with U.S. soliers in the middle of it. If Iraqis want a democratic government let THEM fight for it.

Furtheremore you repubs/cons show a stunning lack of confidence in the Iraq police and army.
You make them sound like a bunch of wimps/pushovers. To you it is a foregone conclusion that Iraq will become a "terrorist headquarters" if U.S. forces are withdrawn.

Left Angle
You said, "We will most assuredly have a democratically controlled Congress and Whitehouse in 2008."

Well, whoopie. (sarcasm intended) What exactly do you think would be the positive outcome of this?

Do you think they will overturn the Patriot Act?
How about the Military Commission Bill?
How about Warner's Military Appropriations bill that hands our state national guard over to the fed?
How about securing the border?
What about thwarting off bankruptcy and getting our country out of debt?
What about getting us out of the UN?
What about backing our monopoly money with a precious metal again?
What about getting us out of these non-free trade agreements that have resulted in a huge trade imbalance and so much industry and jobs shipped overseas?
What about getting our government back to the Constitution, which by the way would handle the debt problem, as many of the agencies would dissolve?
How about throwing the for profit, privately-owned Federal Reserve out of business. This is actually one of the legitimate roles of government. Anyone remember what Andrew Jackson said about these folks? It has to do with a den of vipers and routing them out. Great stuff.

No? Then, they're every bit as worthless.

In a related story
In a not surprising development, the DC circuit court has ruled that ALIENS at Gitmo do NOT have right of Habeas Corpus. Challenge in the SC is likely.

http://www.scotusblog.com/movabletype/archives/2007/02/circuit_court_a_1.html

Come on Limbaugh
This is getting pretty ridiculous.

A civil war between Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds was set in motion by the invasion. It’s got nothing to do with terrorism.

People like Bush just don’t want to accept responsibility for the fact that they did NO research on the country before invading.

The idea that you could put Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds into a nice neat constitutional democracy in 3, 5, 10 or even 20 years is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard of.

It is also stunningly anti-conservative. That is not to say that we should not promote constitutional democracy in the middle east. But it took our forefathers far more than 100 years to set up our system under far more favorable circumstances, and it wasn’t accomplished by the edicts of an outside occupying force.

To Truthserum
I only agree with about 25% of what you say, and that most pertains to the borders. However I will ask you this question. Will any other leader of any other party close the borders? Will a Dem, a Green, a Libertarian? At least the Repubs have some members who want it sealed off. I can't find politicians in any other party who wish to do so. If so many Democrats want the borders closed, then why did they vote for Democratic politicians in 2006 who had absolutely no intention of doing so?

I hate to tell you this, but paleoconservatism has been a miniscule element in the Republican party since WWII. And while we must always be careful of overcomitting U.S. forces abroad, our current standard of living demands that we protect our free-market allies. I'm sorry, but I hope Pat Buchanan's philosophy falls on deaf ears. Isolationism is impractical, impoverishing, and (in the age of high-tech terrorism) dangerous.

As for your claims that the Defense Dept. has "debunked" the Bush administrations reasons for going to war, I say keep dreaming. You may disagree with their policy, but to claim that it is not directly related to national security is fallacy. George Bush has his faults, but I trust him with our national security far more than any Pat Buchanan.

Liberty: I'll take a dem controlled govt
anytime over a republican one. at least 9 times out of time I agree with their positions on the major issues and the direction they will take the country in.

As for your list, its interesting but who do YOU think has a better chance of getting those things done?

Left Angle
"As for your list, its interesting but who do YOU think has a better chance of getting those things done?"

Ron Paul

Jimbo
Great questions! I know you already know you won't get any answers from the resident trolls,as it would put them in a reality zone! I can give it a shot, though.
1. Yes, they would love to see that happen, because all the moonbats know that GWOT, Global Warming Katrina, are Bush's Fault...and, with some after thought, they will say he asked for it.

2. The answer to this one could be tricky. They would try to negotiate first for release, and when that didn't work, why, you know that death would also be the President's fault. Never mind that some crazy terrorist(radical, extremist, freedom fighter, jihadist) wanted the American dead, period.

guilt by association
Agree entirely here... conservatism has been confiscated, distorted and sullied with guilt by association because RINOs and neoCONS have simply made a travesty/parody of it:

************************************************

baseballdoc writes: Tuesday, February, 20, 2007 10:57 AM
RNC & GOP responsible for 2004

....David ...

....the RNC abandoned their base by supporting too many RINOs who ended up voting like Democrats ...Arlen Specter and Lincoln Chaffee come to mind ...

....If the RNC won't support conservative candidates then they can't complain when they lose elections to the Democrats .....COLOSSUS

*************************************************

RNC = Rino Network for reConquista

Presidente Jorge = RINO big govt. fraud and neoCON dupe

Dubya has taken conservatives and Middle America for an unexpected ride on his big govt. spending spree and foolish folly foray into Arabia against the wrong bad boys with fabricated excuses for a disingenuous neoCON agenda.

Meanwhile, traitor that he is, he has been selling out America's socio-economic future and cultural well-being by secretly facilitating the North American Union, MexAmeriCanada, while aiding and abetting ILLEGAL invaders pervading and permeating crimes, drugs, gangs, illegitimacy, welfare cheating, social service decimation, school enervation, doc fraud, tax dodging, community erosion, etc., ad nauseam.

Alas, he has surpassed Jimma' Carter! Mission accomplished-- a NEW worst modern President!

phxvet: I'm shaking in my boots...
at the thought of the Islamofascist threat to take over the world...as if American Imperalism isnt a threat to do the same thing..
I'd say they have a lot in common.

2 peas in a pod
The problem with the Democratic party at the top is that they believe in that big government is the answer to all ailments.

The problem with the Republican party at the top is exactly the same thing.

Donaldd- RINOs are going to learn
Donaldd writes: Tuesday, February, 20, 2007 11:51 AM
Mountain Rose
We expect Republicans to do what they have always done flip flop.
Republicans would never agree with this nonbinding resolution if a Democrat President were in office. It was Republicans crying for cutting funding to military when Clinton was in office.
***************************************

The doofuses who pretend to be Republicans, who enable the Leftists in undermining the war, are going to be shocked when they are out on their ear.

We have uncovered the effort on the part of Leftists to flood Republican Representitives offices with phone calls.

These RINOs don't even have the backbone fo a jellyfish and cave in to Trojan Horse style pressure from those who traiterously desire the defeat of American troops in Iraq. I think that they are going to discover the consequences of their actions.

And if there is anyone out there who has not signed the pledge yet, please visit Hugh Hewitt's Blog, or log on to
http://truthlaidbear.com/thenrscpledge/
And sign up! (obviously I don't mean Donaldd).

Also, visit the Victory Caucus
http://victorycaucus.com/
There you will find the list of 7 "White Flag Republican" Senators and 17 "White Flag Republican" Cogressional Representitives who sold out their country by voting for the non-binding resolution.

It is time that we stop giving any money to traitors who refuse to stand up for their country like men instead of meesk!

Error of our ways?
Any conservative that stayed home or voted democrat knew this was coming but we voted out as many RINOs as we could anyway. I'm still sick of being told by all the pundits, including YOU, how stupid we are/were for our emotional vote to punish the RINOs. Conservatives live by principals. Sometimes the cost of maintaining those principals is high but the cost of compromise is even greater. Who loses when you compromise with the Devil? Certainly not the Devil!

Hopefully, the RNC will quit endorsing RINOs and quit trying to force them down our throats for the good of the party. Hey, I've got an idea. How about we do something for the good of the U. S. A.? Yeah, I know. That's crazy talk, but I can dream can't I?

reply to Logos
re:
"As for your claims that the Defense Dept. has "debunked" the Bush administrations reasons for going to war, I say keep dreaming. You may disagree with their policy, but to claim that it is not directly related to national security is fallacy. George Bush has his faults, but I trust him with our national security far more than any Pat Buchanan."

Indeed-- then are you ready to invade Iran as some neoCONS want to do? If Dubya is doing such a swell job, why is Al-Queda on the rebound? Why do our ex-Cia types and generals keep saying we have taken our eyes off the ball and focused on the wrong bad guys? What will you consider "victory" in Iraq? There are > 1 billion Islamics, 90% of whom distrust our motivations in the region-- shall we send troops to fight them all? You say that the so-called Paleocons are outmoded, but have you read what George Washington and many more recently said about getting into foreign wars? What Ike warned JFK about Nam? What key generals warned about Iraq? What key intelligence officials said BEFORE we went in?

The neoCON Bushies CHOSE this mess-- now they want to foist the blame everywhere else. I did not "dream" this up... it has been a freakin' nightmare of willful indirection and incompetence! We have simply stirred up a hornet's nest with no good end in sight.

those who dismissed
"I hope those who dismissed the consequences of a Democratic takeover in Congress last November are beginning to see the error of their ways."

What error would that be? They already knew Democrats were not Republicans.

I believe the complaint by said voters was not that Democrats would be Democrats, but that Republicans were not being Republicans. The tipping point then is that Republicans need to start being Republicans.

So, Mr. Limbaugh, the correct time to see the error of their ways would be when Republicans start acting like Republicans.

Are we seeing that now?



Neocon arguments
It never ceases to amaze me how neocons claim that what 3 groups of people do (NONE of whom support Al Qaeda) will mean that we win or lose.

Defining a constitutional democracy between Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds (NONE of whom support Al Qaeda) as the criteria for “success” against terrorism is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard of.

Phxvet
The Dems know very well who the enemy is...their enemy is GW Bush, and what they want is a US defeat in Iraq that they can pin on him. This is why they were so glum after the Iraqi elections,why they tried to spin the death of Al Zarqawi and why they delivered a response speech to the Iraqi Prime Minister's address to the Congress as if he were a political enemy. Any US success in Iraq is a defeat for them.

This is why our terrorist enemies openly favored Democrats in the recent elections, and why Bin Laden promised not to attack states that voted for Kerry...they know who their friends are. These bogus resolutions are unprecedented in American history...simultaneously cutting the legs out from under our troops and sending our enemies a message that they have friends in the US government. Bush should openly denounce this for the treason that it is, and traitors like Kerry, Kennedy, Murtha et al should be jailed for sedition.

BTW, Liberty, Nazi Germany had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor. You know that, don't you?

Gary
You are absolutely right! Throughout this entire thread, noone has pointed out the real reason that Mr. Limbaugh wrote it. In the first paragraph he more or less states that, since we did not hold our noses and vote Republicrat, we are responsible for the Dems being in power and therefore the mess that they are making. They got kicked out, not for the war, but for their terrible leadership and desertion of conservative principles. This is the exact same crap we saw on TH for months leading up to the 06 elections-hold your nose, vote for RINOs and trust the GOP. Otherwise, the Dems will be in charge. Well, we did not go for that crap then and we won't now. The GOP has made it very clear that they have no intent to change; picking Mel Martinez made that clear enough. They will not shrink govt, secure the borders, elim social spending, etc. End of story. Until they lose the WH in 08, we can expect the same old crap from the GOP. They may not learn even then.

Mountain Rose
Your insistence at blaming what is going on in Iraq now and the mess we are in, on the non-binding resolution is complete nonsense.

Who did you blame 4 days ago?

What I see are some people that hate so much to admit that the policies were wrong, that they are eager and willing to find some sacrificial lambs to blame it on. It still doesn't hold water.

John Galt
You said, "BTW, Liberty, Nazi Germany had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor. You know that, don't you?"

Will you please explain where this is coming from?

rw
Check my post above. This article is the same old crap that has been put on TH since well before the 06 elections. Now they are getting us ready to hold our noses and vote for McCain, Giuliani or Romney. That is the point of the article; you got it. After we hear this stuff enough times, they hope we will pick the lesser of two evils. With Hillary running, the GOP can run a progressive like Romney or Giuliani and still attract the moderate voters to stay in power. They only need a few of us to buy in. Look for the big three to run to the right in the primaries but move well left in the general election.

Author of This Quote
Before I give you the author of the following quote, I'd like to ask if anyone here might know the author? Hint. The person is a current member of the House.

"I wholeheartedly support withholding funds… Although it is a drastic step and ties the President’s hands, I do not feel like we have any other choice. The President has tied our hands, gone against the wishes of the American people, and this is the last best way I know how to show my respect for our American servicemen and women. They are helpless, following orders. But we, we are in a position to stop this terrible mistake before it happens."

Liberty
What was the point of a non-binding resolution? Political wanking! They should have had the cajones to come out and do something concrete-they do hold the purse-strings, after all. It is a documented fact that the NVA reached a point where they knew all they had to do was hold out and wait for the American anti-war movement to do their heavy work. They knew they could not defeat us but realized that they did not have to; they just had to wait until the Dems did this for them. Every time the Dems pull these stunts, it gives the terrorists the belief that all they have to do is be patient and wait for us to give up. Once that inevitably happens they can just stroll in and behead anyone that helped the Americans. Do you think if we cut and run we will ever forge useful alliances with anyone, anywhere in the world? These congressmen and senators are traitors by definition and should all be voted out of office.

Free trade argument
phxvet,

you wrote: "Therefore, the free trade argument is absolutely ridiculous".

I am suggesting that understanding trade agreements is essential to comprehending what is taking place on the world stage. There is a paradox that suggests that one way to make agreements [trade] more effective is in some cases to make them less enforcable - and therefore more palatable to those who might feel threatened by a loss of national soverignty.

Our policy of creating a democratic society in Iraq is just one example of how the paradox is used to suit a larger cause.

Through a combination of soft laws, negotiations, declarations and use of force which govern trade in effect create an international consensus and lay the framework for binding treaties later on.

In order for the one world government crowd to gain ground, they must (through trade agreements or brute force) control each nations resources. Think of the Earth Summit.

No my frend, the trade argument is central to understanding the motives behind the war in Iraq, the impending threat from Iran and N. Korea, and yes the emergeance of a North American Union.

This is all about control.

We are lucky
that a majority of Americans repudiated Bush and facilitated the Dem takeover of Congress. I shudder to think what this Country would look like if the majority of Americans thought similarly to the neocons who still support Bush.

It is truly a testament to this Country and the founding fathers that we were able to overcome the neocon takeover and regain OUR Country from these people through the democratic process. Very few (if any) countries in this world could have weathered this storm as well as the US of A.

Cheney will likely be indicted after Libby gets convicted and he flips on his old boss. Bush will not see any criminal prosecution (mostly because he was a stooge of neocons and it will be difficult to impute knowledge to him of anything), but he will be relegated to a footnote in history books, where my grandchildren will read about that awful time in American history where the country was duped into experimenting with neoconservatism ideology.

The dems will reclaim the presidency in 2008 by a comfortable margin. I am not saying this is necessarily a good thing because I am all for a balance of power and I believe there are several good moderate conservative leaders who would make a good president. However, Americans will give it considerable time before a "republican" finds his or her way into the office. It is unfortunate that the small band of neocons in the Cheney cabal ruined it for the large number of moderate conservatives.

We should take solace in the fact that sometimes goods things are worth waiting for. In two years we will finally be done with the neocons. Congress has now begun repairing the country and we will see much more progress following the '08 elections. We will have to deal with the mess created by Bush in the middle east, but we will, and we will gain support from the world in our efforts because our actions will demonstrate that we apologize for Bush.

What is important is that we continue to show the world that America can and will survive the Bush Administration and we will be stronger from the lesson. This is the mark of a great democracy.

Liberty
Iraq did not plan the attack on 9/11, but it was still aiding and abetting international terrorism by by hiding Abu Nidal and funding the Palestinian suicide bombers and their families.

phxvet

I will say again, phxvet, Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. Now, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan are different things, entirely. But, we chose Iraq.

If you think that Iraq was so involved with 9-11, perhaps you should tell Dubya, because even he says they had nothing to do with it. Watch it yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_A77N5WKWM

dogjudge
It was a Republicrat congressman that uttered it prior to the Kosovo debacle/quagmire. BTW-we are still there in force many, many years later, aren't we? And in Germany, Japan, Korea, etc.
Donaldd-Nobody sends troops into harm's way with no desire for their safety and speedy return. Your post was over the top and shows your Bush Derangement Syndrome problem. Anyone that serves in the military knows what they are signing up for and that they will be put at risk. I support the troops and the war. I served in this war, did you? Watch who you call a traitor, lefty!

Oscar
Here's the thing... if I see some of the neocons own documents, some created years before 9-11, that lay out what I see them executing right now, well then, it is a bit hard to deny.

I have posted links to these several times.

Both Limbaughs wrong
Davic Limbaugh argues just like his misinformed brother Rush. They are both trying to convince the American people that the struggle is between Demomcrats vs Republicans.

But it's not! The struggle is mainly between Nationalists and Globalists--and unfortunatley both parties are filled with Globalists. Globalists (a.k.a. New World Order idiots)want wars everywhere to prove that we all need a One World Government. Israel wants us in both Iraq and Iran to do their fighting for them and are urging us in that direction.

None of this has anything to do with Democrats vs Republicans.

Same ol', same ol'
Jimmied is right; Dems are just trying to have things both ways, as usual.

Mountain Rose
You really need to calm down. I come from Maine, the home of two of the Republican senators you disdain. We Mainers have great respect for them because they have always put the good of our country before partisan considerations. Susan Collins is running in 2008. She will easily win, not only because of her actions on this occasion. A majority of Americans disagree with you. Shrillness will do nothing to win them over.

Sean
There you go with that "democracy" word. We were not established as a democracy at all. We were founded as a Republic. They are very different.

Sean
I am chuckling over what I imagine your examples of "good moderate conservatives" are. If these people aren't 100% behind shrinking and eliminating govt. agencies and social programs and limiting the govt. to it's constitutionally stipulated powers then they are not really conservatives. BTW, quit reading the Dems press. The Republicrats got kicked out for acting like Democrats and abandoning conservative principles, not for supporting thier CIC. You might care to notice that a number of RINOs lost. The only glaring exception is my man Rick Santorum; the moderate GOP honchos threw him under the bus.

CVN65
I'm retired Navy...yourself?

CVN65
You said, "What was the point of a non-binding resolution? Political wanking! They should have had the cajones to come out and do something concrete-they do hold the purse-strings, after all."

I agree and if the same people do not have the intestinal fortitude to vote for it when it is introduced, I think it will be very telling. You know, kind of like those that voted for the wall on the border, but now won't fund it.

Thing is, if you always stood against this effort in neo-con nation-building, how should you have voted?

wayward 1
I hear you! A few years ago,more than a few actually, I taught Orwell's 1984 to English Lit students for several consecutive years in a small high school in the MidWest. I have seen this coming for so very long, and have tried to tell people, but most seem to think I'm just looney and that all that matters is for a politician to claim conservative or liberal principals. Who tells Bush or any president what he must say or do? Hillary is much more frightening to me because she has been reported by some who know to LOVE the book 1984!

How could anyone fail to see that Bush's low numbers mean that he is in the loop on NAU. And it is all futility to try to control the borders. Any of them! We will always be at war with one of the other UNIONs. This will keep us all busy, worrying about who we might vote for or watching and listening carefully to the news to find out who TODAY said the politically incorrect thing that will end in his/her THERAPY to reprogram thinking errors.

I get really sad when I realize that very possibly there will be no United States of America for my grandchildren. This particular daughter of the American Revolution social studies teacher can no longer listen to or worry about the news (snooze). Where do you get your real information?

CVN65
Well, it appears that I've come across someone who is truly delusional.

I put a quote out there calling for the cutting of funds for the troops and what do I get?

Someone telling me my post is over the top. Huh?
Telling me about Bush Derangement Syndrome. Huh?
Telling me that it's okay for any reason to put the troops in harm because that's what they signed up for. Oh really.
Asking me if I ever served. Air Force '67 to '71 as if it's any of your business.
And finally saying that I've called someone a traitor. Where exactly did I say that?

You either need a course in basic reading, or basic comprehension. Neither one appears to be your strong suit.

Donald and Kimbot
Donald,

Please take a moment out from your terrorists apologias to consider this fact:

Since 1998, American forces left Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden's official pronouncements concerned Saudi Arabia,for whom he was once a subject. Qatar, Kuwait, and Oman are independent kingdoms, which never even hit Bin Laden's RADAR. CENTCOM and the Navy have bases in those kingdoms. Logic would have it that Bin Laden could care less about his sacred soil being tarnished by Americans. He began planning for 9/11 in 1999-2000.

Kimbot,
Th GOP Senators could have removed the filibuster from thier chamber rules if there were enough Democrats to go along. Since the Republicans had at least 4 defectors who would never go along with such rule changes, they needed at least 10 Democrats to make up the deficit. Of course, there wasn't even one Democrat willing to do that. Therefore any attempt to end the filibuster would have been filibustered.

Therefore, it is quite hypocritical for the Democratic Senate majority to cry foul now. The GOP minority is just using whatever tools that have available.

Personally, I hate the filibuster rule. In 1901, the House got rid of it, and the Senate should now follow up. The Democrats currently can hide behind the filibuster and avoid a vote that will more than likely come back to haunt them.

You should also clear your head of your MoveOn talking points and realize that not one new Democratic Senator or House member ran on a "cut and run" platform last autumn. Not one. Last November's election wasn't an endorsement for a troop pull-out. Otherwise, there would be a bipartisan congressional bill on the floor right now to defund the war. As usual, the Democrats are using whatever subterfuge they can to gussy up thier intentions. They haven't the guts to face the electorate in 2008 after Iran annexes Iraq. Non-bnding resolutions are for cowards.

Lynne: Its a matter of semantics...
win it, stop it., or end it.. however you want to put it the majority of the u.s. citizens want the Iraq War OVER and they want it OVER SOON!!

the only reason you repubs/cons are so concerned with a "victory in Iraq" (whatever the heck that means" is because you dont want Prez Bush and the Repub congress to go down in history as making one of the WORST military/foreign policy blunders in the history of the U.S. In other words its all about "saving face".

and I'll say this once again, You repubs/cons
automatically assume that if the U.S. military leaves Iraq it will turn into some "terrorist headquarters".

In other words you think that the Iraqi Police and Military are a bunch of spineless wimps/pushowvers that wont fight for democracy.
then the question is if they wont, why should we in THEIR country?

you repubs/cons need to wake up from your bush/rove/cheney brainwashing. the majority of
americans are not buyint your bs propaganda anymore. keep ignoring midterm results at your own risk.

Congressman Murtha a traitorous Marine
Being a Marine of twenty years I consider John Murtha to be a traitor to this country by aiding and abetting the enemy that we are fighting against terrorism.
John Murtha is exorcising conduct unbecoming of a Marine Officer and should be unceremoniously drummed out of the rolls of honorable Marine Officers of those Marines who have so served honorably fighting this country's enemies foreign or domestic. John Murtha as far as this Marine is concerned is now the enemy, and should be harshly dealt with.

A few thoughts;
Republicans in power?
Those who were duped into thinking Republicans ever had control of Government;
Consider the fact that Bush could not even appoint a judge with any surity because of the Stealth Communists poseing as Republicans. (RINOs)

Why Iraq?
ALL of Radical Islam must be defeated before there is peace. We have a long way to go.
Iraq was the strongest military power in the ME.
That may be why it was chosen.
My personal choice would have been Iran because of the Hormuz Straits but I am not privy to all of the information our Generals are.
Possibly Iraq would have aided Iran if we had gone there first.
You don't like the idea of a long war?
I don't know anyone who does but personal likes and dislikes have little affect on wars.
How long is long?
It started 14 centuries ago and there is no end in sight. I do not expect to live long enough to see the end of this war and I doubt any who read this will either.
This fact will remain regardless of who or how many try to deny the truth.
If all of America was to "Roll up our sleaves", drop the PC crap and start fighting this war like we should, it might be possible for our children to see peace and fewer Americans would die to bring it about.
Too many are crazed by lust for power for America to fight to win a war now. Politicians put their ego before America's future and the lives of our soldiers. That will draw the war out longer.

jimmied
No, I think you're right -- Limbaugh was pointing out that the Democrats in Congress want to position themselves for any outcome, and Republicans hoped to force them to declare themselves, by voting yea or nay on a pledge to NOT cut off funding for the war in Iraq.

Limbaugh has an interesting discussion, but I think the outcome of last week's vote has already been established, and the factors are simpler than he imagines. The people didn't need to see Democrats vote on an actual funding resolution to know that they (and some damp-trou Republicans) want to politically maneuver the Iraq campaign into failure. That's so resoundingly obvious that no counterarguments are going to make headway, outside the left-wing "base." People don't even need to know about the Republican resolution, to recognize what the Democrats are doing.

The Democrats in Congress are trying to force the president to visibly "back down," as a matter purely of political "face," although they offer no alternative to our course in Iraq. They are just trying to impress the president with their lack of support.

Someone asked what victory in Iraq would look like. The same thing it has always looked like: a self-sustaining, representative, consensual government of "Iraq," defined by its current borders; a government that incorporates Shi'as, Sunnis, and Kurds; one that is able to police its own interior and defend its own borders; and one that is able to maintain political independence from Tehran, whose sponsored forces cannot infiltrate Iraq to terrorize the populace, foment unrest, and undermine the integrity and authority of the central government.

Those who originally supported the campaign in Iraq might make the effort to understand how much has been accomplished in pursuit of this victory, rather than accepting the judgment of Bush's opponents that we have been failing. If we go by the tenor of the "news" from Iraq, we will fail, and fail, and fail again -- we will never do anything BUT fail, as long as there is one teenager left in Iraq with a homemade bomb.

Here's a news flash: THE NEWS ABOUT IRAQ WILL NEVER GET BETTER. It will always be bad, partly because the news media are politically opposed to our national policy there, but partly because of the old saw that if it bleeds, it leads.

We have to learn to look beyond the news. Iraq has come an incredible way since April 2003, writing a constitution and electing its own government (with enormous voter turnout in spite of real death threats to voters). Coalition forces continue to turn over security to provincial governments within Iraq (the count is updated by Central Command as the turnovers occur; see this link - http://www.mnf-iraq.com/), and around the end of December, Shi'a Ayatollah Ali Sistani -- the senior Shi'a leader in Iraq -- approved a course of genuine power sharing with Sunnis in the national government, which had been a key obstacle to further political cooperation up to that point.

The success of Coalition and Iraqi efforts to date has been the major factor in funneling terrorism down to specific neighborhoods in Baghdad, which produces the concentrated series of bombings seen on the news. The closer we come to achieving the goals of victory in Iraq, the greater will be the effort of those opposing a stable, self-governing Iraq: Al Qaeda, Iran, Syria.

There is no argument from reason or facts that will reach convinced foes of Bush. But I urge people who are still susceptible to rational distinctions to consider the proposition that we are not, in fact, failing in Iraq, merely because the campaign there hasn't met all its objectives yet. We want ALL the terrorist bombing to stop in Baghdad, but the fact that it hasn't yet doesn't mean that as of today, we "have failed." If that were how things worked, no one would ever start any worthwhile project at all.




Non-binding resolutions for cowards
I fully understand how some people could feel that way.

At the same time, here's a different perspective for you.

In politics there are a couple of different ways to approach an issue. We could have the Tom DeLay method. Confrontation. Go right at the issue. Beat people into submission.

As long as your willing to deal with totally alienating the opposition and other issues, this method works fine.

Behind the scenes and build bi-partisanship.

This is another way to go at issues. I will use the situation of impeachment. Clinton versus Nixon.

With Clinton, the Republicans tried to use the Tom DeLay method. With Nixon, the Democrats used the bi-partisan method.

Ignoring the issues with Nixon and Clinton, if the Republicans truly wanted to impeach Clinton, would it not be possible to argue that if they would have tried the bi-partisan method they might have been more successful.

Now think of getting out of Iraq. A year ago, would you have gotten ONE Republican senator to vote for a motion condemning Bush's Iraq strategy?

Just a thought?

Congress didn't authorize THIS war
I went back to read the original war resolution passed by Congress in October 2002, authorizing military operations against Iraq. Nowhere in there does it talk about using U.S. military force to put down ethnic unrest between Shi'a and Sunni, or "remaking the map of the Middle East," or "bringing democracy to the Middle East as an antidote to extremism," or any of the other neo-con pipe dreams that Bush has our troops in Iraq fighting for.

The war resolution was about eliminating a perceived immediate existential threat to this country: Saddam and his WMD. We have now done that. Iraq is no longer a military threat to any of its neighbors. So whatever Bush has our troops doing in Iraq right now, was never debated before the war started, and was never authorized.

If Bush wants to use our troops to stabilize a centuries-old schism between Shi'a and Sunni or to "remake the map of the Middle East" or "democratize the Muslim world" or any of that stuff, he should lay his cards before Congress and the public, and ask for authorization for a much wider U.S. military campaign. The public should be made aware of the grandiose sweep of the neo-con vision for the Middle East, because that's why our troops are still in Iraq.

Otherwise, the war as Bush is currently fighting it represents a "bait and switch" from what Congress originally authorized.

Liberty
My statement about Nazi Germany not being involved in Pearl Harbor was a response to your statement that Iraq was not involved in 9/11. Both statements are true, and neither proves that the countries in question were not enemies or that our wars against them were unjustified.

BTW, your laundry list of policy goals was among the most eclectic I have seen. I agree with 1/3 - 1/2 of them. Do you really believe that free trade is not beneficial and that we are not a net importer of jobs? Do you really believe that the gold standard is still workable? That anyone's rights have been trampled by the Patriot Act? Interesting stuff.

MyOpine
The problem is that Bush and co. are RINOs too. What we are doing has nothing to do with 9-11, nothing to do with "spreading democracy", nothing to do with "creating peace" and has everything to do with getting control of the natural resources and furthering the plan for world government.

dogjudge
For God's sake, man, I was giving what I think may be a correct answer to your question. Reread the post, please; those words were addressed to Donaldd (I just checked to confirm this). Sorry for the confusion. I do not usually have time to log individual responses but instead have to lump them together. I also never insult or use invectives (in an effort to keep the level of discourse high) but in this case Donaldd was so over the top I had to call him on it forcefully. So, compadre, relax, I am neither delusional nor impolite and I hold my fellow veterans in the highest regards.

John Galt
Free trade is beneficial. NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT and OMAN are NOT free trade. They are "managed" trade and provide for an organization, the WTO, to rule over our Congress.

Gold standard? Absolutely. What exactly do you think is propping up the fiat money system? Do you like the fact that money is printed out of thin air and your dollar is constantly being devalued? How do you like the fact that these decisions and more are made by a for profit, privately run organization, the Federal Reserve? Have you studied the history of this organization?

Patriot Act? Have you read it? If not, I suggest you do.

It's interesting that you mentioned Pearl Harbor. You are aware, right, that it appears that we may have had just a bit of foreknowledge, in addition to proposing ways to get the Japanese to attack us?

I posted a couple things about this just a couple of days ago.

Author of This Quote
Representative Sam Johnson (R - Texas). Not exactly a Republicrat as CVN65 has characterized him.

Talking about Clinton and Bosnia.

"I wholeheartedly support withholding funds… Although it is a drastic step and ties the President’s hands, I do not feel like we have any other choice. The President has tied our hands, gone against the wishes of the American people, and this is the last best way I know how to show my respect for our American servicemen and women. They are helpless, following orders. But we, we are in a position to stop this terrible mistake before it happens."

wayward1
Sorry for the long delay, had to work. Damn the Man! Anyway, as you can tell by my name I am Navy. Served 1998-2003 active and still maintain IRR status as a CDR in the DC. 2 Med cruises on USS ENTERPRISE (CVN 65) and a tour at MEDCENPTSVA that involved going boots dry for the Iraq War (Fleet Hospital 15 in support of the 1st MEF). I loved the time I spent and the people I served with. Where and when did you serve?

SteveL
The authorization was to destroy the Saddam regime. You are correct technically, but when was the last time Congress spelled anything out directly? The President has the authority vested in him via the Constitution to deal with national security threats. Congress has 3 options:

1)Impeach Bush on the grounds that he mis-used Congress' war authorization. Mis-use of power is the clearest way to impeachment. Good luck on that one, though.

2)Defund the war immediatly. The President cannot legally force Congress to fund the war.

3)Advise the President to declare war on Iraq. Not sure this would make sense, since Congress can only declare war on soverign powers and not politcal/military groups.

Despite the level of rage animating in the blogspheres, there is not a clear majority of Americans who wish to pull out of Iraq no matter what the consequences are. Congress knows this; hence the non-binding resolution. The Democrats are also not so sure that the current troop surge will not be successfull. However, they are quickly painting themself into a corner. They cannot have it both ways, and they know it.

Iran lurks over the border. Shiites a la Al Sadr would most certainly get military support from Iran if the US left. Iraq could within 2 years become an Iranian puppet if not an actual province of Iran. Iran could then conceivably, Findlandize the entire Gulf region as well as Jordan and Egypt. Not a pretty picture.


Lynne
You said, "Tommy Franks. "Should we leave Iraq prematurely, the enemy will surely follow..."
What is it in that statement that you don't understand?
The man has been there, on the ground. Has hands-on experience, and no political agenda. "


Oh REALLY?

"Kemp said that he is working on two business ventures in Iraq. He described the first project, a company called Free Market Global, as “an international company that trades in gas, petroleum, and other resources.” Although Kemp provided only vague details about the project, he said, “I can tell you that General Tommy Franks has joined the advisory board of Free Market Global.” Last year, General Franks commanded the invasion of Iraq."
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/040216fa_fact?040216fa_fact

http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1643

Sorry, Liberty, I Can't Agree
I'll grant that our current trade frameworks are imperfect. However, any movement toward freer trade is beneficial, and "perfect" free trade is not possible in this world. It can be mathematically proven through the theory of comparitive advantage that even biased or unfair trade still provides benefits to both parties compared to isolationism. Further, I don't believe that the WTO has any real power over our government. Note that it is the Dems who seek to bind us to international legal frameworks that would supercede our sovreignity.

At its root, the gold standard is fiat money as well--gold has no intrinsic value except that given it by a free market of exchange. Our money is valuable because of the trust in the stability of the US market system that backs it. While it is easy to find fault with the Fed, I have seen no evidence that our monetary policy has been badly mismanaged. This is backed up by the stable, low rate of inflation we have seen over the past 5 years, again disproving Keynsian nonsense.

I have read the Patriot Act, and I have no problem extending the use of tools that have been used for years to fight organized crime and drugs to the fight against terror. For example, I'm not paranoid enough to believe that unless we make libraries a safe communication zone for terrorists, Big Brother will be checking to see if I was reading "Catcher in the Rye." I have heard of no credible abuse of the Patriot Act to date, and its use has resulted in the thwarting of a number of terrorist plots.

Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories have been around for years, and I don't find them credible. Even if they were, it doesn't change the fact that Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan were both enemies, or the fact that Saddam had proven ties to Al Qaeda and numerous other terror groups.

Liberty
Yes Bush is a RINO and you can blame the Liberals for electing him by DEFAULT!
If Bush had any serious opposition there would be a Democrat in the White House right now.
AlGore? a nut case Envirowhacko?
Kerry? a treasonous liar that America hated?

What the MSM picks for Democrats right now looks no better.

I don't like the MSM choices for Republican candidates much either.

I do like what I know of Tom Tancredo.
I think I could vote FOR him instead of just the less of two evils. Take a peek, see what you think.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50703

SENDING 'EM A MESSAGE
All this should point to the futility of using the vote to send a message. Those intent on sending the Republican Party a message by using the elections were too clever by half. Votes were cast and the "message" was not heard. Instead, now it is Washington sending a message to YOU. The art of refining one's party's stand by voting for your opponent is self-defeating in the end. On top of all this, the irony is the wrong people lost their seats while the usual bunch unprincipled jackasses are left even more secure in theirs. Nice going.

SteveL
"The public should be made aware of the grandiose sweep of the neo-con vision for the Middle East, because that's why our troops are still in Iraq."


Steve,
That's all The Democrats have talked about since 2004. To say, that the Democratic Talking Points aren't getting out is a bit ridiculous. One cannot read a newspaper, listen or watch the news, or read a blog with out neocon talking points being mentioned in loud afforimative voices.

Also, whatever happened to the Powell Talking Point "If you break it, you own it?" I suppose, in light of this new fondness for litteral translations of legal documents (save the constitution -we don't even want to go there), the Democrats would wish to review the legal portfolios of the EPA, NATO, the FDA, as well as a host of other documents which have sprang many policies that have nothing to do with the orginal drafts.

I would certainly love to see the Democratic Congress' reaction $90/ barrel oil once Iran finishes its occupation of Iraq. The occupation of Iraq by Iran is a given (either by proxy or by force). It would be an oil speculator's dream. In that case, 2008 would most positively be a landmark year, but not one which the DNC is envisioning. There would most assuredly be a politcal bloodbath; the number of democraticly held seats would be reduced to 50 total counting both houses.

Liberty
As far as some of the posts from Kimberly, tannabear, et al go thier hatred for people clouds and pervades most of thier posts. They are brushed aside as just more rabid leftists who care little about sound debate and only know how to spew someone else's talking points or thier own "enlightend" opinions as facts.

There are others who make a sound debate and can write a post without making reference to thier favorite scape goats in emotional tirades.

Kimberly in particular as a few favorite "evil" people that she likes to throw in for good measure like Michelle Malkin and Ann Coulter. Even if the article isn't about either of them they will get some loving attention from her. So, it's pretty easy to discount the ravings of a hate filled surrender monkey when all they do is throw poo at you.

MyOpine
Yes, I like Tom Tancredo too. He has an excellent stance on border issues and the whole selling out our sovereignty to the NA Union issue.

You know, I like Ron Paul. He has these same stances that Tom has on the above mentioned issues, plus so very, very much more. If you listened to him or read his articles, he would blow your socks off.

John Galt
Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory? John, I think we have far surpassed that. Here are just 2 things:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44354

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/

John Galt
Fan of Ayn Rand??

CVN 65
21 years active duty, retired as an OSC. Served aboard USS Midway CV-41, USS MacDonough DDG-39, USS DeWert FFG-45, worked for Adm Haskins at CINCUSNAVEUR overseeing Kosovo, and took part in liason work with the Saudi, Oman and UAE navies. Spent 3 months on a UAE gunboat during the first gulf war.

I'm a bit of a cynic now...

Orthodox Dude
Voting is the only means the average citizen has to voice an opinion with any force. Sooner or later negative reinforcement of this type works. Always has, always will. In the meantime we may have to suffer but what other choice do we have, really.

We didn't out fox ourselves. We knew the stakes. We knew it would get nasty. We knew we, and America, would have to take our licks. We are willing to accept the consequences of our actions.

Rather than become slaves to the political process we chose principal over politics. Winning, politically, no matter the cost is a losing proposition in the end if you have to repudiate your values. Because then you have won nothing but political self-immolation.

Donaldd
Ah, the classic conspiracy theory! I could point out that no one has been "dragged from bed and put away somewhere" by "goons" (except Elian Gonzalez). But to you, that is further proof of the conspiracy--the "fact" that "they" have been able to conceal all of the goon-draggings. You'd better adjust the tinfoil helmet--the black hellicopters are coming for you!

Blustrmom - I am obviously a Rand fan, but do not buy into all aspects of Objectivism, particularly its militant Atheism.

What should we do...
Thomas Jefferson wrote - "Have fair trade with all, but entangling alliances with none.

Donaldd
"...some goons break into your home at night, drag you from your bed, and put you away somewhere..."

Your right dude, I dare anyone on this site to go on public television and say something negative about gay marriage or race-based hiring & admissions....they will come for you!

The Iraqi Military/Police Are Wimps...
One thing I have learned is from Repubs/cons is that if U.S. forces are withdrawn from Iraq is that it will become according to them a:

"Terrorist haven and stronghold in the middle east, an headquarters for Al Qaeda operatives"

So accordingly to their logic the Iraqi military and Police would be overpowered by the Insurgency because they are composed of "cowards,
P**sies, pushoevers and Wimps, who wont fight for democracy.

One has to wonder why repubs/cons have such shockingingly low opinion of and lack of confidence in the Iraqi Military/Police.

dogjudge
- Who do we surrender to? Who would be defeating us? And don't give me "them" or "those who hate the US", I want a definitive group.

The who?

Any walking away that is not from a position of strength is a:

surrender of initiative
surrender of the high ground both moral and physical
surrender of the goal, a stable Iraq and to the enemy's goal, a dishonerable retreat of US forces

To Al Queda, to the Majdi Army, to Iranian support, to the Muslim Brotherhood, to any self styled Islamicist group who ferverently believes in: the destruction of Isral and the Great Satan.

No one would be defeating us in the traditional sense. We defeat ourselves by this feckless demonstration of pure political revenge. Al Queda does not need to defeat us, just outlive us. Outliving and lasting us is victory.

One measures victory and defeat on two factors: national will and the will of the enemy.

Why do you suppose a strongman like Saddam or Assad are able to remain in power though we westerners know they do so upon the blood of their own? Because of the ME culture and mindset of power. We would little tolerate a western regime of such alignment. We didn't and couldn't for long and WWII gave us that.

A negotiated cease fire or a pulling out in a position of political and moral weakness is all the enemy needs thanks to the lesson of Viet Nam. They define thier own victory as such. We will give them this victory wrapped on a silver platter because we are too comfortable, weak willed, entertained, and cozy to care much about national pride and the dirty job of fighting a war. Iraq isn't the war, it is a battle of it. We made it a battle rightly or wrongly and pulling out before we attain a position of power and authority will only mean defeat.

WWII Germany fought on only as long as Hitler remained alive and finaly an admission of defeat on terms only the Allies agreed to give them did the fighting cease. We were in a position of power and able to dictate terms. But, we were fighting other western nations whose common background mirrored our own.

If Hitler had not taken his own life, no matter how much of Germany the allies held the fighting would have continued and gone underground. Why? Because Hitler defined victory and defeat in his person and will. Al Queda and those groups intent upon undermining the legitimate government in Iraq know that defeat only comes with the death of thier operational heads.

But, I will agree with you on the futility of our excersize there as long as we are fighting with our hands tied. A draconian culture responds to draconian means and if we aren't prepared to swallow this then we have already defeated ourselves.

A little side note: The allies diverted ten divisions to scour the Austrian Alps furtively searching for the vaunted Alpine Redoubt, the place where all the nazis where going to hold up and fight to the last. It never existed despite all intel to the contrary.

Wether you think it was right or wrong to start this battle, we started it. Do you want to see it crumble apart just to give our POTUS a black eye regardless of what history might say later?

It's too soon to declare defeat and disaster.

And to those calling this a civil war, who are the seperatitsts? What is thier agenda? What have they declared? A mob war is a better description.

my opinion on
the way to win the “War on Terror”…

We are fighting militant, religious and ideological islamists who us terror tactics (murdering innocents). They believe that everyone must submit to islam and if we don’t…jihad. They believe our freedom and prosperity is akin to living in depravity and decadence. We need to go after the arab and Islamic states that fund, harbor and implement these ideological islamic fanatics/radicals.

Without state support they would not be a major threat to America. Iran is a leading supporter of the terrorist groups hamas, islamic jihad, and hezbollah. Saudi Arabia is another, which spends billions of dollars on the Wahhabi sect of Islam that inspires legions of Islamic terrorists. Without monetary and spiritual support by these states, the islamic terrorists cause would crumble.

To decisively defeat islamic terrorists, America needs to show an unwavering willingness to defeat them. Immediately after 9/11 I think we were willing to do it, but over five years later, Iran is aggressively standing up to us with their nuke program and we still consider Saudi Arabia our “ally”. Syria still harbors terrorist groups. All three, whether openly or secretly , incite hatred against America. We haven’t done anything to end these threats. Instead we appease them. We say, islam means peace or that this great religion has been hijacked. There is no wonder they call us a “paper tiger”. For some reason we haven’t taken decisive military action against these state sponsoring terrorist nations.

Military actions require the willingness to take devastating military action against enemy regimes who support these ideological fanatics, and the complacent civilian populations who let them remain in power. Instead of worrying about whose feelings we might hurt or who might hate us (they already do). Only by a show of real power will we win this war (and I mean our full military arsenal). And if we are attacked again, we respond immediately and with an undeniable show of power. They don’t respect the fact that we have the weapons, but they will if we actually use them. Once we show them we are not the "paper tiger" they think we are, I believe the civilians living amongst them will stand up to them or turn them in to us. We have the means to defeat them, all our leaders lack is the will.

To John Galt
DonaldD would have a problem as there is a shortage of tin foil, but ADAMANT has the answer, only one drawback. Aluminum amplifies the messages.

http://adamant.typepad.com/seitz/2007/01/foiled_again.html

Left Angle
"So accordingly to their logic the Iraqi military and Police would be overpowered by the Insurgency because they are composed of "cowards,
P**sies, pushoevers and Wimps, who wont fight for democracy."

We would never call the Iraqi police or military members "liberals" or "democrats"....that's a little over the top.

Dogjudge
Did you read my post of 1:50 PM? That should clear up a misconception of yours concerning a prior post addressed to you and Donaldd. I am of the opinion, however that a Republican is a Republicrat until proven otherwise. To be completely honest I had suspected that it was Tom DeLay that said it; I went back and reread that it was a current member of congress so I knew that that was incorrect. I removed Delay's name but left in the "Republicrat" out of apathy.

"Cold War" "War on Terror" How Similar
How similar, or different would you say the Cold War was from the War on Terror?

You had/have Russia and China trying to impose the ideology of communism on the rest of the world. They were both willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish their goals. Willing to take over small parts of the world to build up a greater "world".

The biggest difference I see is that Russia and China were geographically defined, at least more so than the people behind the War on Terror.

Comments?

IceDog: Lets be for real...
tell us what you really think of the iraqi police/military.

liberals and democrats will fight for democracy.

We just like going after the correct target with a good concise battle plan..

That "shoot first ask questions later" bs is for
repubs/cons ehh.. I mean the birds.

Slacker
I have to agree with many of the things you said about Bush and the way the war has been prosecuted. However it goes much further than whether conservatives or liberals are running the war. The problem nowadays is that we as a people no longer have the stomach for real war. Let's face it honestly, even if we did all of the things you mentioned (which should have been done) half of the country would have been up in arms over the show of force and the resultant devastation. As a nation we have become spoiled with all of our advances, our cushy way of life, and our technology. We now believe we can do anything. People think you can fight a war effectively with no casualites and no collateral damage like some type of X-Box game. I am by no means a military man but I think if you are going to fight you fight to win and you use all of the weapons and technology at your disposal and seriously kick @ss. But half of this country is against any war no matter the rationale behind it and half of this country is more concerned with appearances of fairness and benevolence rather than teaching terrorists that attacking us is a bad idea and will result in their devastation. I mean if after 9/11 the entire country cannot understand the threat and get behind our need to smash the terror networks militarily how are we going to survive at all -much less win the war in Iraq? We have gone in there fighting on their terms - sometimes door to door using M16s - while all of our high powered weaponry sits idle. I don't understand why so many Americans are worried about what world opinion of us would be if we were to use that power. If we used our power their opinion would be that they sghouldn't mess with us and to leave sleeping dogs lie. The objective should be to defend our country, destroy our attackers, and go back to our peaceful life. When Mooke al Sadr pulled his cr@p in Fallujah with his militia we should have just flattened the city to prove our point. I don't look forward to flattening cities and killing innocents but unless we show the jihadis that it is both dangerous in and ineffectual to mess with the big dog these things will continue to happen and these wars will drag on forever. I don't believe the Greatest Generation would have ever allowed Kim Jong mentally Ill to ever launch those missles - they would have destroyed them on the launch pads. Nor would they be debating what to do about Iran's nukes - they'd take them out. I am afraid that Chicago or New York with suffer a nuclear strike of some magnitude before the arguments stop and the real a@@kicking starts 'cause these guys ain't going away when they think we are weak and they can win. And finally having the Dimocrats constantly harping on the Repubs, whom I already agreed have botched the WOT, or having the reverse go on if a Dem was in power, only confirms the jihadis feeling that we are weak and we will collapse upon ourselves if they do enough damage and get it on the news every night. This country needs to wake up and buck up.

phxvet
Well, I thought we were all taught that the pinko commies would do anything that it would take. Hide under our desks at school if there was an atom bomb attack. Like that would keep us safe.

At the same time, everything was indirect. Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia, Cuba, South America, etc. through other countries.

With that in mind, does that imply that we'd better be prepared for a "war" that lasts decades?

Are there any tactics that were used in the cold war that might work here? Or are we going to simply have to deal with a guerrilla war forever?

Left Angle
at the thought of the Islamofascist threat to take over the world...as if American Imperalism isnt a threat to do the same thing..

I'm sorry, but you're just plain ignorant!

I doubt you even know the definition of emperialisim for if you did you wouldn't make such a hair brained assertion.

Our "colony" in Iraq is just going through a rough spot, you know? For, we must have forgotten that it was a colony since we haven't cracked down yet on all that dissent. And the oil sure is flowing into our country, isn't it? I mean, gas prices are plummeting due to all this petrol we are siphoning from our "colony".

I do wish for the glory days, though. When our Japanese colony was ramping up its production, we were floating in the bucks then, way back in the 80's and 90's. And our German colony really did great once the Berlin wall fell, didn't it? We all raised a stien and eat sour kraut when that day happened. And how about our Philipine colony, or our other conquered lands that we subdued with the iron heel of imperialisim!

Go retake history 101 but this time from a prof who isn't a socialist.

Phil1861: At least I can spell the word
what the hell is "emperialism"

rotflmao

Donaldd
you wrote:
Those who support Bush's war are traitors like their leader who cares nothing about killing our sons and daughters.

Grow up dude! People die in war. War is hell. None of us who supported GWB voted to kill our sons and daughters. I didn't vote for jihadis knocking down the WTC towers either (I'm not saying Iraq had anything to do with that either so save your breath). I voted for smacking down all Islamic jihadis who thought they could mess with Uncle Sam so they would cease and desist. I do not defend the way the war has been handled and many conservatives do not either. The idea of removing Saddam (which at one time, long before 9/11, Dems thought was a good idea too) and establishing a democracy in the Middle East to thwart the spread of terrorism was a noble one - even if it has turned out to be misguided. It was handled poorly and it may not be possible to get these people who are used to slaughtering each other for the last 2000 years to stop doing so. But the whole schtick about Bush Lied, etc and the constant carping and blaming is detrimental to the country. I will stipulate that - OK you guys were all brilliant. You were right and we were wrong (I don't really think so but I'll do so for arguments sake) However we are there now whether you wanted us to be there or not and whether we like it or not. I remind you that the Democratic leadership had its opportunity to vote against doing so in 2003. They did not. What they want to do now is say they didnt mean it when they voted for it, they want to yank everyone out and simply leave a vaccuum to be filled by terror networks. Then they niavely believe that the jihadis will then simply close up shop, build a nice little Iraq, and simply leave us alone. That is the childish illusion the left lives under despite years of jihadi attacks on our interests. I could get behind Dems if they just stopped whining about the war while always trying to get us out of it, if they actually demanded the President do more to win it with force. It used to be they always complained about needing more troops now they are against it. The WOT has to be fought and your side refuses to see that. If Dems are so smart and they have so many better ideas on waging this war why don't they get on board and put their heads together and do something more than muck up the already screwed-up works? Answer: Three reasons: a)They will do anything for political expediancy and b) because they hate anything military and any projection of American power and c) their specialty is whining and demonizing. we need adults running this country and neither side is filling the bill.

Factions working together
For those who are wondering if all those factions in Iraq could EVER work together, first of all the Kurds are doing just fine. Second, if the Democrats and Republicans can rule over America without blowing each other up (with real bombs, that is), surely the Sunnis and Shi'ites can eventually come to terms with each other in Iraq.

Of course, politics in the U.S. is (are?) pretty ugly, too. It's just that here there's more verbal warfare than hand-to-hand combat.

phxvet
What should we do?

Protect our borders for starters. Then, we could stop the effort to merge our country with Mexico and Canada next. http://judicialwatch.org/SPP.shtml

That would do for starters.

As far as Nazi, Germany is concerned, you might want to check out Prescott Bush and Union Bank a bit.

The old Soviet Union? Where did Trotsky come from? Who funded the Bolsheviks?

America First !!
Weather from the far right or left,Reps or Dems we the people should forget the labels and admit that no matter the outcome in Iraq that our Government has failed,that the politicians who are supposed to follow the will of the people have forgotten who and how they got to the Congress/senate.We as Americans now have to admit our blame in this mess for we continue to put the same officals in place who represent their own political greed and power and party with no regard to the damage they will or have caused our great nation.If we the people don't change and realize that we can cause the loss of the greatest architecture of freedom and Demoracy, what do we pass on to our children,to the world.Lets take back our Country and produce the best,not have the best be our past.!!!

Left Angel
Mine was a typo, what's your excuse?

Elections and ideas have consequences
As Robert Hutchins once wrote, 'ideas have consequences.' The ideas of liberal Democrats are simply inadequate, wrongheaded on almost every domestic and foreign policy front that I can imagine. The idea that GOPers, conservs, Christians, moderates and any stripe of GOPer could vote Third Party, not vote, be so pure as to shoot our Republican wounded, in either the last election in Nov. with horrid outcomes and could be again in 2008, is simply unworkable and I think fraught with as much danger. No matter who the nominating process comes up with , the BASE will, I think put forward a person we must support. Even if that is not the 'pure' candidate some aver that just is too horrid to contemplate! Any Democrat is too horrid to contemplate as we face Islamofascism for another generation. As we face falling education standards. As we face bankruptcy of SS and Medicare. As we face illegal immigration. As we face crime and public safety issues. Yes, even Rudy G is better than any , any Democrat. Any! And that is
what David is pointing to. Please, no more lessons by purist voters which only allow our real enemies to win.

Isolationism....
phxvet wrote:
Ahh, Isolationism!! Should we have had fair trade with Nazi Germany? How about the Japanese Empire before the war? Communist Russia? Doesn't work. The rest of the kids in the world sandbox don't always play nice.
---------------------------------------
Who said anything about isolationsism. What I was referring to was entangling alliances. We shouldn't have any. Not with the EU, not with UN, not with GATT, the FTAA, NATO, and any alliance in whihc we give public money to foreign governments.

We should cut all alliances because with those alliances we have imposed our will (under terms of conditions) on peoples of other nations which is why we are in this mess to begin with.

It's funny that when people refer to having trade without alliances someone will always suggest that those not in favor are encouraging isolatisionism. Tell,me....how did it work from our inception untill the 1980's when the framework for the WTO appeared.

Don't try and come back with enomic and military support during the world wars because they were temporary alliances to support a combined wartime effort.

Once again I suggest that this is all about power and control of resources and as long as we continue to foster these expansive trade blocs (EU, MEFTA, NAU) there will be perpetual war.

Better start building your bomb shelters cause it reminds me of another rport by the UN that suggests 3/5s of the earth's population needs to be eliminated to proplong the resources we do have. Think I'm kidding....read Agenda21.

To Truthserum
Truthserum,

I'm not trying to be belligerent or insult your opinions, but I just don't see how isolationism is practical in this day and age. I mean isolationism (as an attitude) is what lead to 9-11. There was a tremendous intelligence failure that occurred primarily because we did not have the human assets abroad or internally to verify the intentions of al-quaeda. The same isolationist attitudes left us bereft of the intelligence assets necessary to confirm WMD stores in Iraq.

Now, before you respond, let me say I do understand your conviction that we must remain free of foreign entanglements. Even I agree that we cannot go around being the world's policeman. Neverthelees, Bush's policy is directly related to national security (both in the short and long term). It attacks terrorists financially, physically, and culturally. It is comprehensive and aggresive. That is precisely what I want to see. I mean just look around at other countries like Indonesia, Thailand, and India. They are facing the same problem. And they have always suffered the these problems when doctrinaire muslims be come a sizable minority.

Now just because the CIA has concluded that we are "angering muslims" is no reason to stop this policy. Why should we stop attacking Jihadists and governments that support them just because it angers muslims? If this attitude becomes widespread, then we have already lost the conflict. This stuggle is a long, ideological one. It will most likely go on even after you and I are dead. Where Bush is "spot on" is his realization that their ideology is not compatable with any freedom-loving people. Where their ideology is autocratically in control, it must be destroyed. Oh well...I could ramble on about this for hours. Anyway, I understand your concerns, but I think that paleoconservatism does not serve us best in this case.

Radical Islam
phxvet,

I see two separate isssues here. One being the war in Iraq, the other Islamic fascism. Two very distinct issues. I'm retired military and I have assembled a list of terrorist acts since 1974 (over 400). You can view it here:

http://constitutionpartyil.com/action/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=92&Itemid=2

Concerning terrorism, we need to take the gloves off and make the consequences of applying terrorism to achieve a goal not worth pursuing. The war in Iraq is another paradigm. Long term the UN is looking into forming a massive trading bloc with the middle east, extending eastward through and including china (MEFTA). Therein lies the problem.

I believe within the next few years we'll see a UN mandate to curb the violence in the ME through negotiated trade agreements.

The real question being, are we (through the NAU) and them (through MEFTA) sacrifycing national sovereignty for a cabal of unelected beaurocrats who sat upon their man made thrones controlling everyones lives. Sounds all to biblical but so very real....and near.

for JP
Congress has a 4th option, proposed by Senator Joe Biden, and I'm glad to see he's thinking along the same lines as I am:

Amend the original Congressional war resolution of October 2002 (the one that authorized the use of military force in Iraq) to specify in more detail what was and was not the original intent of Congress.

The amended resolution will continue to emphasize the importance of defeating al-Qaeda and other international terrorists inside Iraq's borders (so much for "cut and run"). It will continue to emphasize the importance of standing up and training the Iraq armed forces to be self-sustaining. HOWEVER, it will also make it clear that Congress is not authorizing Bush to involve America in suppressing ethnic violence among Shi'a and Sunni. Hence the next time the Shi'a and Sunni blow up each other's mosques, American soldiers aren't going to risk their lives to stop it.

And that, to me, is the best compromise out of this current mess.

Bush and Franks

The connection between George W Bush and Tommy Franks is intended to make it appear that George W gave Gen Franks his rank. One little problem with that accusation is that Gen Franks got his first star in 1991. George Herbert Walker Bush yes, George W, NO. GW was busy with his baseball team at the time. Additionally promotions to General require Senate Confimation.

SteveL
Since the war powers act after WWII congress has used excessive meddling in any military operation.

There are too many arm chair generals now wanting to weigh in on current affairs from a comfy Washington office.

While I can see that this Biden proposal would quell the ruckus and get down to brass tacks it bears little on last weeks House resolution and the two abortive Senate attempts at the same only to give Bush a black eye.

I agree, we've gotten pretty distracted of late but congressional meddling gave us the half hearted Vietnam conflict. Changing the tune mid concert because you don't agree with the way the conductor is directing the third movement is self serving. If you don't like how much money your cousin is spending you shouldn't have given him a blank check.

Congress doesn't have the constitutional authority to conduct war but they certainly like to get thier hands into that power pot.

Can you imagine Congress doing that in WWII?

U.N. control.....
phxvet wrote: "I think you give the U.N. too much credit. At least I hope you do"

- guess we'll find out in 2010

You also said that you see the war in Iraq as being against Islamo-fascism. I see it as a war to sustain instability, in the paradox I mentioned earlier.

Armchair generals we have become!!!


Regardless of reasons for being in Iraq
Since most seemed to be confused why we went into Iraq, and we can't go back and uninvade Iraq, it seems foolish to argue again why were in Iraq.
Were there simply put.

Now were on our 5th "surge" in Iraq and near 4 years into the war and still trying to figure out what a win is going to look like. Nor do we have any idea when that will be.
Yet Bush continues the same failed courses n Iraq. At home were immigrating 7,000 potential Iraqi islamo terrorist.
Mr. President, more stupid policies, more borrowed money and more troops doesn't necessarily equate win.

If the 5th surge doesn't "win" the peace in Iraq then what.
More money, more troops, more of the same policies that are not working?
Shouldn't we seriously start asking whether Iraq even wants a democracy, or can live under a unified central gov?
Shouldn't we ask our allies to shoulder more of the troops and the financial aspects of this war?

Why is it assumed "defeatism" to question the reasons why were losing in Iraq? or critize failed Presidential policies?
Are you seriously so afraid by the Neo Cons over-hyped islamofascist threat to the homeland that your unwilling to question the effectiveness of the policies of our president. Like Benjiman Franklin stated you deserve neither Liberty nor security.
I mean the misuse of reconstruction funds alone ought to make everyone question what the hell the pres is doing.

Last time I check Bush wasn't God, and if now in America questioning the President is a moral sin or traitorist, then what the hell our are troops fighting for in the first place.

Wow!!
It just goes ON and ON today and NO ONE is convincing anyone else!! My sticking point, is that I am tiring greatly of hearing the Dimmocrat party being called the Democratic party--there is NOTHING democratic about them, except as spelled as some are doing as Democrat(ICK). Ya just gotta love it!!!

dogjudge
You wrote:

"I must be confused. Up until January of this year wasn't it the Republicans who controlled both houses of Congress and the Presidency? They had the power to enact just about anything they WANTED to enact, despite whatever the Democrats did."

=============================================

Tell me, how did the recent non-binding Democratic resolution on Iraq turn out?

After all, they had "both houses of Congress" and thus "the power to enact just about anything they WANTED to enact."

In light of the reality of not only the vast majority of American congressional history but the most recent series of events, isn't the premise of your point, namely that disingenuous drivel you've posted above, a thoroughly ridiculous hoax borne of either ignorance or deceit?

Frankly, I believe you knew it was simplistic, dishonest over generalization and therefore probably the latter.


As Much as I like Newt

.....I think he is too polarizing and therefore unelectable .....the Dems and moderates would rally around the nominee to defeat Newt ...

.....I think Guiliani would capture those moderates that won't vote for Newt and gives Republicans the best chance to win the White House in '08 ...Guiliani/Santorum in '08 .....COLOSSUS

Liberty and Bobbit
So we agree on the basic underpinnings of the chaos in Iraq. We also seem to agree that Bush is essentially the architect of that chaos. Good. But what's the next step.

To me, the saddest aspect of this is that we have to wait for a new president, whether democrat or republican, to begin to stabilize the situation and repair it. Surge or no surge, it is no major change in course, and while it may have some benefit I tend to agree with those who say the American people have lost patience with the war and will not give it enough time to work.

I have said in other posts that the suggestions that Biden and others (including many conservatives) for federalizing the country but still allowing a great deal of autonomy for the internal government of kurdish, shia, and sunni regions is now the best possible of many bad end games. The sticking point has been how oil revenues would be shared among the regions, but that seems to be close to being worked out. Also, recent studies of seismic data using modern techonology not available to Hussein's regime seem to show that the Sunni regions actually do harbor some reasonable amount of oil deposits that they could develop. This could be very important since without their own source of oil revenue the Sunnis have been reluctant to trust the Shia majority to share the wealth with them.

Again, I am not saying this is a perfect outcome, or even one that should be a permanent solution. One would hope that after a cooling off period that nationalist sentiment and goals would trump sectarian differences and the boundaries between the regions would become less important over time. Also there is and will be refugee issues as the population migrates into areas they perceive as safer based on the sectarian identity in the short term. But this is already happening, particularly in Baghdad where there were mixed neighborhoods and we are powerless to stop it.

I am convinced that this approach is not only the best among alternatives, and that it is essentially inevitable unless we want to pour in much more than 20,000 troops to impose some alternative.
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