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Tuesday, January 23, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Biden & Co. Lack Seriousness on War
by David Limbaugh
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Democrat senators Joseph Biden and Carl Levin appeared on "Fox News Sunday" to promote their toothless resolution against the president's troop "surge" in Iraq, but ended up unwittingly reinforcing their party's image as lacking the requisite seriousness to run the war.

Levin said, "It is a political solution which is needed in Iraq. Recent events prove that you can make some political progress perhaps without deepening military involvement by the United States."

While there's no doubt that Iraqi politics are quite relevant, Levin's formulation is precisely backward. Though we've been urging Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to quit protecting Moqtada al-Sadr and his militia, it wasn't until he gave the United States the green light to drop the hammer on the mini-tyrant that Sadr ended his boycott and sent his political flunkies scurrying back to the Iraqi parliament.

So yes, politics matters. But the lesson is that terrorists and lawless insurgents only understand the politics of force. You don't extract results from them by jawboning around a conference table. You either use force or credibly threaten it. Whether our government follows up is another matter, but this is a start, and it wasn't achieved through highbrowed diplomacy.

Sen. Biden sidestepped Chris Wallace's question as to whether his and Levin's resolution would embolden the enemy and Osama bin Laden and discourage our troops, as Vice President Cheney suggested.

Biden responded with an ad hominem attack against Cheney, saying, "He doesn't know what he's talking about. He has yet to be right one single time on Iraq."

Fine, Senator. We can stipulate that you still hate Cheney. But how about the question?

Instead of answering, Biden said, "Bin Laden isn't the issue here. The issue is, there's a civil war. Does anyone support using American troops to fight a civil war?"

Sorry, Senator, but our premature withdrawal would serve to validate bin Laden, embolden the enemy and discourage our troops. Bin Laden personally may not be the issue. But the terrorists' attitude does matter, and it will be affected by outcome of the Iraq war.

But Biden and his cohorts obviously can't get past their simplistic view that Iraq is purely a civil war, free from significant external influences, excepting ours, and whose outcome will be free of external consequences. Biden said, "There's an overwhelming consensus that we should de-escalate the war."

Wouldn't it be nice if it were so easy? Biden presents childishly false choices. It's not a matter of whether people are for or against the war in Iraq, as if it is neatly contained and perfectly isolated.

Even if Iraq is partially a civil war, it is much more than that. Even if you choose (wrongly) to believe Saddam Hussein's regime was irrelevant to global terrorism, global terrorists have staked a major claim to Iraq and its future instability and unfriendliness toward the United States.

But the antiwar crowd can't see through the fog they've created by obsessing on the war supporters' supposed motives. They have never understood that the great majority of supporters didn't perceive Iraq to be a war of choice. Iraq was not a playground for imperialistic, neoconservative experiments in the exportation of democracy.

Most war supporters believed -- reasonably -- that Iraq possessed stockpiles of WMD and was voraciously seeking more. They believed it represented a threat to the United States and its allies and that its lawlessness and defiance toward the world community had to be dealt with.

They will be quite pleased with a successful "democratic" regime and even hope that it will have a contagious impact on the region. But they didn't primarily base our support of regime change on those goals.

From the beginning, war opponents have overblown the numbers and influence of the "neoconservative," who is just a straw man they've erected as an easy target to attack rather than dealing with the real issues involved.

Regardless of whether Saddam represented a serious threat or whether terrorists cared deeply about Iraq before, Iraq is now an integral part of the global war on terror. We cannot make these truths disappear just by wishing them away. Nor can we end Iraq's relevance to the global war simply by withdrawing our troops and fantasizing away the inevitable disastrous consequences.

Biden & Co. aren't even serious-minded enough to put their legislative money where their mouths are: away from the troops. They insist on hiding behind a meaningless sense-of-the-Senate resolution, to avoid future accountability for their irresponsible advocacy.

Democrats handily recaptured control of Congress, but even with the apparently unpromising slate of Republican presidential hopefuls, Democrats are going to have a very tough time taking back the White House without demonstrating their seriousness (dare I say "gravitas"?) on the war on terror. They cannot vote it out of existence.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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JohnGalt
I meant to say,

I know you are NOT that stupid.

JohnGalt and GunnyG
Both of you prove my point.

JohnGalt I HAVE refuted each and every claim you make. Your refusal to answer my question by saying Bush was only changing the SOD, firing his generals, telling the public we were losing and so on for political purposes is so STUPID you should be ashamed of saying it.

Even I don't think Bush is so stupid as to fire a winning team in the middle of a war.

To say you believe this is disingenuous because I know you are that stupid.

You guys prove my point when you say that the democrats have voted for this war. Exactly. Bush has gotten everything he needs from the democrats. You need to stop blaming them for Bush's failures.

And yes Biden, McCain, and many others were arguing for more troops very early in the insurgency. Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney ridiculed them and told the people there is no need for more troops. Biden warned long, long, ago that if we didn't put more force in to stop the insurgency it would get out of control and spiral into a civil war. The republicans would not listen.

The reason some people don't support the surge is because they believe it is too little too late and they don't trust the Iraqi government. Many people don't believe it is right to put US soldiers in the middle between two factions in a civil war.

Those are legitimate arguments. I understand you don't agree with them, but it is not wrong to discuss them.

Thank goodness the democrats won congress. At least now the debate will take place.

Slacker, it is you who must wake up
Like all liberals, you mistake your opinions and feelings for facts and evidence; they are neither. You live in the comfortable fantasy cocoon of the liberal media, acting in their role as the propoganda wing of the DNC. In this fantasy world, history starts today, there are no consequences to actions and facts are whatever you want them to be. Yet you (meaning liberals in general) never wake up from the con game, despite the repeated failure of liberal nostrums and prescriptions.

I have refuted each of your claims and you have refuted none of mine, except to say that you don't believe them or they're not important. The only evidence you offer for any of your claims is a single UN study. You will find that UN studies will be much better accepted at Daily Kos than here. I didn't bother to address your silly point about Bush saying that we're not winning because your personal opinion that this proves we are losing and have had no positive gains is immaterial. Bush, as CIC, makes statements for political as well as military reasons--he was trying to make clear to an American public browbeaten for 4 years by the MSM with images of death and failure that he recognizes how difficult the situation is. Further, I challenge you to find any war in which no changes were made in field personnel. You could make the argument that Bush relied too much on his generals and waited too long to take charge, but this hardly proves that there have been no siginificant accomplishments in Iraq, that we cannot win or that Dems have any sort of serious plan for anything except surrender.

You would undoubtedly (and rightly) characterize someone who believes that everything is going swimmingly in Iraq, that there have been no setbacks, no problems and that we have a quick and easy path to victory as out of touch with reality. But no one who recognizes the importance of victory there has made these claims. Yet you make the equally absurd claim that there have been no positive achievements in Iraq, proving that you are indeed out of touch with reality.

And can you seriously deny that Dems have consistently tried to obscure, hide, deny or disparage any of our achievemnts there? I can certainly name names if you wish. Let's start with Kennedy, Kerry, Murtha, Clinton, Reid, Levin, Pelosi, Conyers, Schumer, Rangell, Biden, Dodd, etc. etc--in fact, every Dem except Joe Lieberman. How else do you explain the fact that the very Dems who until as recently as December claimed that Bush was incompetent for not sending enough troops to Iraq now claim he is incompetent for sending more troops to Iraq? Have you ever spoken with a soldier who has served in Iraq or read their e-mail, letters or blogs? How many of them do you find saying that the media has it completely right, and how many are outraged at the one-sided, agenda-driven reporting?

I don't necessarily believe that you personally want to see a US failure in Iraq. Most libs are sincere enough in their beliefs and are willing to swallow the Kool-aid without question. As a self-professed liberal (congrats on admitting that--most of your leaders won't)you no doubt believe that socialism works, that income redistribution is a great idea, that the federal government can solve all problems, that socializing health care will solve the problem and that negotiating with terrorists will prevent them from attacking us. Unfortunately, your leaders know better. They know the disastrous consequences of failure in Iraq, yet are willing to do everything within their power to bring about that result to facilitate a return to their "rightful and natural" governing role. I recognize that you are unlikely to wake up unless the Dems succeed in their goals and the chickens come home to roost, so I pray that you will continue along snug in the wooly cotton brains of infancy.

slacker
Since you drug me into your little rant, let me state, that Hanoi John Kerry, Hitlary, and d*mn near EVERY OTHER libdolt was for this action. They voted YES to appropriate the funding.

Then, they voted in favor of it again and again.

Also, I prefer to listen to the people who have BEEN THERE and ARE THERE instead of idiots like Quagmire Ted who have NEVER BEEN there but is somehow an expert on it and the ISR, who never left the Green Zone.

That mistakes have been made there can be no doubt but until YOU are in the hot seat making the hard calls, guess what, you're just another Monday morning quarterback.

The Democrats blame it all on Bush who they say MISLED them! What, they can't make their own minds up? They can't ask questions? They don't have a staff that can research issues? Evidently, the DEMOCRATS are the rubber-stampers from where I sit if they blindly voted yes or maybe, it was just to appear strong for National Defense?

seablock you are not slow
There are indeed still "true believers" hanging on to the misinformation and spin of the administration.

That's the bad news.

The GOOD NEWS is there are fewer and fewer of them every day.

We can see bi-partisan support growing for the Biden plan. We have real conservatives like Warner, Sam Brownback, Chuck Hagel and others who are respected by moderates and some liberals as well as their fellow conservatives urging the administration to change strategy. I expect there to be more of them in the coming months.

JohnGalt, my sense of superiority...
... is not false.

Think carefully and you will see why:

I gave you facts backed up with real evidence. You ignore them and repeat spin or replay ad hominem attacks on imaginary opponents of your point of view gloating over the failure of this administration's war.
THE TRUTH:
We are all Americans in this war on terror together. I, and most of the lib posters on this forum care deeply about winning the war, but know that the strategy and tactics of this administration are LOSING it. That is why we speak out.

I give you tough questions you cannot answer honestly without abandoning your allegiance to the propaganda of the neo-cons, administration hacks and their spin masters. You pull the wool back over your eyes and duck the questions. In case you may have even forgot my question.

QUESTION:
IF WE WERE REALLY SUCCEEDING IN IRAQ, as you way we are, why on earth would Bush go on national television and say we are losing (I count "not winning" the same as losing), fire his secretary of defense, replace his key military leaders, and shuffle in a new diplomatic team?

I know you will duck this question yet again. Please understand though, that I know that throwing unsubstantiated claims about unnamed nefarious liberals and traitors or "horrible democrats" being unhappy about any success in Iraq is NOT answering my question. There may be one or two such people in the world, but I am not one of them. Nor do I personally know anyone like that.

Yes, JohnGalt, Pitbull, GunnyG and others who hold onto the fantasy world rather than reality, it is much more comfortable to live in your dream world. More comfortable even believing there are imaginary liberal boogey men hiding in the closet than to see the world as it really is.

But the comfort you feel and give each other by punting your delusions back and forth is illusionary. When you and the tiny minority that still fall for the spin and misinformation from the administration mindlessly repeat their misinformation the chaos does not go away. It only gets worse. And now the majority of Americans see the truth while you continue to fall for the spin.

Those of us who see the truth have a responsibility to try to wake you dreamers up.

Even if that proves to be impossible, we must show those who are willing to open their eyes the way to the truth. I understand that the truth may be painful. Like many people who are swindled in a con game, you will feel very bad at first when you realize how you have been duped and your trust betrayed. But the first step in recovery is to stop trusting the con artists who have been deceiving you.

I do not say these things out of a sense of superiority. I am sure that once you wake up you will be just as capable as I to see things as they are, not just through rose colored glasses. I say these things out of patriotism and faith that the "truth will set us all free" and will guide us on the path to victory in the war on terror.

Am I slow or what when there appear ....
still to be "true believers" on this thread who think that the war in Iraq was a great idea? The fact that our military could take out the toothless Sadaam did not mean we could control the people of Iraq. G. Bush and the rest of the idiots who started the war ignored the experts and military historians and will eventually be responsible for the next generation of Frank Churches, Paul Welstones and Hanoi Janes who would dismantle the Pentagon. Bush's administration controlled the government so he has no one to blame the mess in Iraq on but himself.

The true believers, however, will never admit error and blame any defeat/loss/withdrawal on someone else similar German's excuse of "stab in the back." Does any one say "we made a huge mistake," and how do we cut our losses without creating a bigger mess.

I don't think Bush's historical standing will even make it up the the elevated status of Jimmy Carter who will always at least be remembered for his abilities to fight off killer rabbits.

Sorry, Slacker...no sale
Claiming over and over that anyone who disagrees with you holds their opinions only because they are childish, closed-minded or being fed propoganda may give you a false sense of intellectual superiority, but it hardly constitutes a convincing argument. No one ever said that everything is perfect in Iraq, or in any war. Bush himself has said from the beginning that it will be a long, tough road. However, the fact remains that we have achieved significant accomplishments in Iraq, have never lost a battle and have suffered less casualties than we did in single engagements in previous wars. In fact, we have lost more Americans in 16 US cities than we have in Iraq since the beginning of hostilities.

Ask yourself why, if Dems really were interested in winning in Iraq, they feel the need to disparage, downgrade, obscure, deny or spin every positive accomplishment? You could have sold their faces by the yard after the Iraqi elections...they looked like their dog just died. Then the spinning started. Ditto when Al Zarqawi was killed. When the newly elected Prime Minister of Iraq spoke to Congress to thank the American people for their sacrifice, why did the Dems think it necessary to stage a response speech as if he were a political enemy? It is you who is blind or intellectually dishonest if you cannot perceive that the Democrat party is deeply invested in our failing in Iraq for their own petty political gain.

PitBull Confused Part 3
Do you think Tancredo is a SOCIALIST for his position on CHINA?

Come on Pitbull are you sacred to answer the question?

It is hard to argue when you do not know the facts. Pitbull use to barking not thinking!!!

PitBull Confused Part 2
http://www.controlcongress.com

Tancredo led a hearing before Congress making many of the same points I did when you called me a Socialist. So PITBULL do you consider Tancredo a SOCIALIST? I know this is tough question since you have a crush on him?


House International Relations Committee
Hearing on Reassessing the U.S. Economic Relationship with China
October 21, 2003


http://www.nist.gov/hearings/2003/uschina.html

PitBull Like how Tancredo looks?
If you do not like his voting record, what do you like about Tancredo?

Do you have a crush on him?

Hey Pitbull
Been on a roll today or what? You ate those Wheaties again, didn't you??!

I just read through 5 hours of posts... whew!!

Then I went back to my own post from 6:32 AM to see how my prediction came out. Not too bad, but I guess there really isn't much to crow about when you are just predicting that liberals will be liberals!

Anyway... keep "PitnEm"!!!

- Primus54

Pitball Confused About Facts
Pitbull "likes Tancredo" but not his voting record for President.


The funny part is Pitbull was ripping anyone who supported Lou Dobbs and Pat Buchanan on trade over Stossel. BTW Pitball, Stossel not an economist

Pitball, Tancredo has voted against CAFTA, WTO CHINA…..Bea Buchanan runs his PACK. He is big time supported bt Buchanan and Dobbs.

It must be hard for you to keep all your talking points straight. Now I know why you are lost in defending anything you say Pitball. You have no idea what you are saying.

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/JohnStossel/2007/01/17/losing_sleep_over_the_trade_deficit


hackamore, republicans ARE doomed
... in 2008 unless they nominate someone voters will believe will not repeat the mistakes of the Bush/Cheney administration and has a good plan to straighten out the mess that they have made in the middle east.

I WILL vote for Biden if he gets nominated. Which he won't. He's way behind and will never catch up to Clinton. He should probably stay in the Senate anyway and keep garnering bi-partisan support for his Iraq plan.

If republicans want to win the White House in 2008 they have to nominate someone who would appeal to both republicans and democrats. How about Lindsay Graham. I'd consider voting for him (unless Biden gets the democratic nomination).

Wiseone not so wise
I have been a Republican for a long time. The issue is simple Cheney put politics ahead of our Country bottom line. If you do not understand the issue, you should move to China and enjoy a one party system.

I am an American before any party. You should try it you do not have to make it up as you go.

Ken in Tennessee
This is a good source to find much of the MSM fiction debunked.
You should copy the link for when you have time.
It covers 10 years and there is a lot to read.

http://www.mrc.org/archive/realitycheck/welcome.asp

BobDoyle
Actually there have been several good books written on this topic. I'm on my way to a meeting but will try to get back to you on it.

Basically what happened is that the raw intel was directed to two places, Scooter Libby's office in the OVP and a new shop that was set up in the Pentago called the Office for Special Plans that waas headed by Doug Feith. Normal DoD, CIA and NSA analysis procedures were bypassed because some in the administration believed they were being too cautious about providing evidence of Saddam's links with al Qaeda and his possession of WMDs.

Colin Powell's book has some excellent information on this. Basically it was Libby's office that provided him with the information he used in his now infamous speech to the U.N. -- and he still hasn't forgiven him. Even after taking out everything that could not be verified, he still ended up with a lot of information that ended up not being true.

Pitbull
Actually I find the lefties as shallow as the righties in most instances. I spend a lot of time at both places, as well as with the MSM, trying to determine for myself what the truth is. Truth is elusive, which is probably why its in such short supply.

I do tend to distrust anyone who substitutes ideology for thinking. Ideology is actually the opposite of thinking. When you think for yourself, you find the facts, then develop your opinions and actions. Ideology gives you your predetermined opinions and actions, then lets you find the facts to justify them.

My goal here is to simply get people to think. And hopefully to do it in a well-reasoned, respectful way. I suspect we would do better in America if we could conduct our politics on a higher level, recognizing that truth is what we are all seeking.

Jeez, I'd better quit now. I'm beginning to sound like Barack Obama.

Kenintennessee
I meant to add that if you do not have some pretty solid info on point, I am inclined to believe you just make it up as you go.

Kenintennessee
"These normal procedures were bypassed in a wholesale way at this time, resulting in the resignations and departures of many of our finest veteran intelligence analysts and operatives."

And you have what proof or specific examples of (1) when and what "normal procedures were bypassed in a whole sale way" (2) how those specific instances, if any, of bypassing (rather than other factors) led to resignations and departures and (3) and who, specifically, were the "many of our finest veteran intelligence analysts and operatives" so affected?

pitbull
I didn't say I would VOTE for Biden -- of course I won't. I said that I would trust him on charting a better course vis-a-vis Iraq, than the current administration. AND, if I'm thinking that way then we Republicans are doomed in 2008. We haven't even got any good candidates. I like Tancredo, but I don't know if he's presidential material.

Vic
With all respect, I never said Bush lied. He was clearly misinformed by a false report.

There was a lot of false information being thrown around in the runup to the Iraq war, mostly because the political types insisted on bypassing the normal intelligence reviews. This is what is called "stovepiping" intelligence, using raw data without analysis to draw conclusions.

You get a lot of wheat and chaff in the intel business. You have to winnow out the wheat and separate the chaff to get accurate information. These normal procedures were bypassed in a wholesale way at this time, resulting in the resignations and departures of many of our finest veteran intelligence analysts and operatives.

If you want good policy, I learned long ago that you need to first find out the facts, then develop your conclusions and strategies. In this case, they developed the conclusions and policies first, then scampered around looking for facts to support them. That is part of the problem we're continuing to face in Iraq.


Ken in Tennessee
One reason I don't waste a lot of time debating libs is their total inability to think and argue logically.

Bush said that 'British Intelligence has information that Saddam tried to buy enriched uranium in Africa' or something like that.

The left says "Bush Lied".

Now pay attention closely. I don't want to have to explain this more than once.

Bush only lied if (1) what he said wasn't true and (2) if he knew it wasn't true.

Bush did not say "Saddam tried to buy uranium from Niger" (or Africa).

Bush said that "British Intelligence had information that Saddam tried to buy uranium'.

So if British Intelligence (MI6) had this information, then Bush did not lie. He told us what information MI6 had. This means that unless Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame have some inside connection at MI6 they cannot confirm or disprove what info MI6 has, and therefore cannot show that "Bush lied". Get it?

Now try this next one and see if you can understand it. Even if Wilson and Plame proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that MI6 did not have such info, it is still not a "lie" by Bush unless Bush also knew at the time he said it that MI6 did not have this info. Since it has never been confirmed that MI6 does not have this info it is IMPOSSIBLE for Plame, Wilson, the DNC, Cindy Sheehan, or you to know if Bush lied.

Finally, I have known about the forgeries in your link for more than three years. They are one of the things Wilson lied about after he returned from his trip to Niger. Wilson claimed these forgeries were part of his proof that Bush lied, but had no explanation when confronted with the fact that he had claimed Bush lied before he ever knew these documents were forgeries. Wilson initially "reported" that Bush lied because Saddam's attempt to buy uranium in Niger failed, which is what the forgeries claim.

In other words, Wilson fell for the forgeries and then changed his story after he learned they were forgeries. And of course he apparently also tripped over the word "tried" in Bush's statement, not understanding that trying is not the same as succeeding. (He would have a better understanding of this concept is he had ever "tried" to explain something logically instead of emotionally to a liberal.)

Amusing
Quite amusing, pitbull. There is an old saying that great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events and small minds discuss other people. My own taste is to try to stay with the first approach. I've found that personal attacks and name-calling are usually the resort of those with little to say that is worth hearing.

To Critical Bill
Sure you change the way they think. In one moment you have a raging islamo-tick praying for death and destuction, in the next moment you have a smoking hole in the ground and nobody thinking or praying. You just have to be willing to create enough smoking holes in the ground.

No Backbone in Washington
It makes me sick to watch politician after politician scramble for retreat and defeat. They care nothing about consequences just their own sorry political hides. No Winston Churchills in this group !!! We have not been attacked since 9/11. We've got the Bush administration and our brave men and women in the military to thank for that. When Mr. Bush is gone, we'll have Hillary or Barack or Joe or Chris or John or Tom or Bill or , heaven help us....Dennis to talk Osama and Aymen out of attacking us in the future.

To Kenintennessee
The forgery was promoted by your people, the dems, so they could have something to b*tch about. Noone used that stupid memo that you refer to. I fail to see why you people keep bringing up this anyway. Your hero has been discredited by everyone from your own democrats to the 9-11 commision. He outed himself. The Libby trial is a perfect example of why these kinds of political trials should be eliminated. Like the NC rape case, the defendent and the prosecuter should trade places here. Especially since it has already been documented that no law was broken and they knew who the leaker was before Libby was even questioned. Talk about prosecutorial misconduct.

Critical Bill said ...
"... you don't persuade people to change the way they think by killing their children, their famlies and their loved ones. It just doesn't work. It won't work. Cultural "wars" that have created genuine long term change can only be won through peaceful means."

Yeah, Japan did not change a wit in the years after we bombed the snot out of them and those darn Germans are still such Nazis even after we fire-bombed Dresden. War NEVER ushers in genuine long-term change...never has, never will.

Critical Bill
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.

I saw your explanation on suicide after I posted. No problem there.

Your example of ancient Rome is also correct, but I would add one thing. The nobles and generals in Rome who committed suicide did so to avoid public trials in which their misdeeds would be publicized AND so their families would be allowed to keep their wealth. Not purely cowardly or selfish but not exactly heroic either.

Wiseone
I think you are the last person to actually believe the fairy tale about Niger's yellow cake. It has been discredited by every responsible intelligence agency in the world at this point, including our own CIA and the Italians who screwed it up to begin with. Why would they have wanted it? They had no facilities to process or enrich it. They had no more use for it than you or I, for which it would have been just a pile of radioactive dirt.

There are a few good links that have debunked this myth. Try this one first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowcake_forgery


Cheney, Libby, and Valerie Plame
John Konop writes:

"It is clear Vice President Cheney attacked a CIA operative for political reasons and tried to cover it up."

What is clear is that Plame, Wilson, and other anti-Bushies in or connected to the CIA organized an unauthorized "mission" to Niger, not for any legitimate purpose related to intelligence-gathering, but for the purely poitical purposes of attacking the President and opposing the decision of both the President and the Congress to go to war.

So if John Konop and other libs want to sanction someone for a political assault, let the sanctioning start with a treason trial for Plame and Wilson.

BTW - The now famous 16 words were TRUE. To this day MI6 stands by their assertion that Saddam tried to buy yellow cake in Africa and 1.77 metric tons of it have in fact been found in Iraq.

Also, it was reported today that 6 months ago our troops busted an al Qaeda cell in Iraq that was trying to sneak 20 more of its members into the US on student visas for the purpose of perpetrating another major terrorist attack in the US homeland.

But Iraq is no threat to us. Just ask any lib.

Conservativeman
You raise some valid points. But instead of all the juvenile name-calling and impugning the patriotism of anyone who disagrees with anyone else on these posts -- lets discuss how patriots can disagree.

I would stipulate that people on both sides of the fence -- left and right -- are patriots who want what's best for America. For example, I was originally for the war in Iraq but I reevaluated my views once I saw our reasons for it proven false and I saw how it was achieving precisely the opposite of what was intended. Now I firmly believe it was completely the wrong war at the wrong place and at precisely the wrong time.

Rather than making America safer, it has made us substantially less safe, created more terrorists and served as a recruiting tool for al Qaeda. It has cost us our position of prestige and respect in the world. It has cost us over 3,000 dead Americans and many more casualties propping up a government I cannot support. We are increasingly being drawn deeper into a sectarian civil war without end by a government that seems only to want our aid in furthering its own agenda for ethnic cleansing. As a patriot, I would insist that is not a fit role for American troops anywhere at any time.

We no longer know who the enemy is in Iraq. Our troops are dying because they are in the way of Iraqi factions trying to kill each other. Why is that a good thing for America? And if it's not, as I believe, why should we remain?

The president is increasingly isolated from the best advice of his generals, his foreign policy team, the bipartisan greybeards of the Iraq Study Group, the Democrats in Congress, a growing group of congressional Republicans and the American people, among others. Our allies, for the most part, have deserted us. Someone called them gutless in an earlier post but I don't think its gutless to refuse to hold Bush's hand when he jumps off a cliff. They have to look out for their own interests, which clearly are not being served by this pointless conflict. I do not understand why it serves our interest either.

Fred
You betcha that Jimmy "The Dhimmi" Carter is happy about Iran.

Click on my handle to check the article about Jimmy on my blog.

Let them have Iraq
Sure the liberals are all willing to let the radical Islamics have Iraq just like good ole Jimmy Carter let them have Iran! Just look at Iran now Jimmy; are you proud of being a coward? I'm not sure the world can stand too many more Irans or any more Jimmy Carters! The libs seem to have one basic approach to everything and that is to critize anything the Republicans are for and always take the opposing view. If Republicans suddently began taking a pull out of Iraq stand, the libs would begin sharply critizing that.

JohnGalt, rub the sleep out of your eyes
I stand by my accurate interpretation of the facts. You will too once you look carefully at the real world and the propaganda you have been fed.

But I see your mind is closed, so no point in rubbing your nose further in the truth.

I will leave you with this one question. If you think about it honestly it may jerk you kicking and screaming into the real adult world. Here it is:

If we were really succeeding in Iraq, why on earth would Bush go on national television and say we are losing (I count "not winning" the same as losing), fire his secretary of defense, replace his key military leaders, and shuffle in a new diplomatic team?

The answer is he is not completely brain dead and does not believe the propaganda you are spouting. He knows the Iraq war has been a catastrophe, we are losing and has finally admitted it. Only the die-hard neocon idealists spin this any differently. The so-called "surge" is the last bullet in his gun. We will do some form of Biden's plan after that.

Finally, I will attempt to squeeze through your closed mind just one simple example of a fact you have completely wrong. I assume you are an honest person and not deliberately lying when you say:

"We were told to expect a flood of refugees out of the country, but Iraqis are returning."

I cannot believe you are saying that with a straight face. There are numerous accounts of the huge outflow of Iraqis from Iraq and the problems they are causing in neighboring countries. You can start with

"Just this month the United Nations Refugee Agency (UNHCR) reported the US invasion and occupation of Iraq has forced one out of every eight Iraqis to flee their homes... Out of the population of 26 million, 1.6 million Iraqis have fled the country and a further 1.5 million are displaced within Iraq, according to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees... In Jordan alone there are 500,000 Iraqi refugees and a further 450,000 in Syria. In Syria alone they are arriving at the rate of 40,000 a month.

Source:
http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-cockburn231006.htm
But this is not the only source. There have been numerous other reports about the problem if Iraqi refugees both inside and outside Iraq and the problems they are causing and facing in neighboring countries.

What source do you have for your claim that migration is in fact the other way, back into Iraq as you erroneously, and I assume, thoughtlessly stated without any attempt at verifying it.

This is just one example of the many ways you have been blinded by the propaganda of the people who have created this disaster.

Wake up. In the real world I, and my liberal friends are right. Sometimes the truth is painful but it is the only way forward.

pitbull
Bush and Co. have made such a mess of things that I think Biden or Hillary would be an improvement. If *I* think that, stand by for a Democratic President in 2009.

American Samoa
This is off the current subject, but I'd like to suggest that you all go to "On the Blogs" on the front page and read Matt Lewis's article on the Dems and American Samoa.

The second comment is very interesting.

The pen is still mighter then the sword
I've been more and more impressed with Cmdr. Petraeus the more I've read. He was the most successful commander in Iraq thus far and his methods reveal why: he has favored diplomacy over use of blunt force.

First, he reached out to Syria to keep energy and fiber optic communications online in Northern Iraq, favoring transparency and outreach to ensure progress and the closest thing to success we've seen in Iraq.

He did this also by resisting infiltration by special operatives sent in by Rumsfeld's Undersecretary Stephen Cambone to interrogate detainees using methods not in the manual. In fact, at the first report of prisoner abuse under his command, he shut down the entire batallion. Prisoners were watched only by trained MPs.

He also allowed prisoners to be visited weekly by local officials, clerics and professors, quelling rumors and staving off reprisals.

A Princeton PhD, Petraeus feels the way to have any hope of winning is sending batallions out to live among the population. To date, our soldiers have mostly been patrolling our large bases. This could be terribly bloody, so will need our best coordinated political and diplomatic efforts to succeed. The author of the Army's guide to combat counterinsurgency, Petraeus feels the insurgents must be marginalized by protecting the people. This will reduce their significance and lessen their influence.

But another key is full transparency. Petraeus has reportedly agreed to full Congressional oversight including bi-weekly closed door briefings.

You may ask why these things weren't done all along? Who knew?? There has been little reporting, oversight and transparency till now.

The main thrust of this effective, veteran commander's military credo was summed up in his 500+ page master thesis for Princeton, basically summed up it was avoiding another Vietnam.

----
By the way to sjt18, I posted replies on the last discussion about the Fairness Doctrine.


SaveTheGuns.com
All they wanted was back in power and to vote entitlements to the smelly mob that comprises their base voters.

AS for Iraq, they'll lose it like they did Vietnam and never blink an eye about it.

When you have no honor, dishonorable actions are never a problem. (liberal mantra)

The Democrats Have A Plan For The War
The Democrats have a plan for controlling and administering the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan sucessfully like the ignorant slob sitting in his underwear stuffing doritos into his face has a plan for winning the Superbowl on February 4th.

The plan that the Dems have relied upon for the war is merely to be critical of the current plan with nothing of substance to add.

Concerning Iraq, the Dems are playing the role of the dimwit Monday morning quarterbacks, ranting and raving over the game, but with no plan on how it should have been handled.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com

Slacker
You are the vicim of the talking points of the communists and their talking points and have fallen for their disinformation and propoganda.

THE DISINFORMATION- - No one of consequence really thought that coalition forces would have any problem defeating Saddam
THE TRUTH - Libs always make believe that history starts today. Go to the archives--you will see that Democrats wailed endlessly that we couldn't succeed, and even claimed that we would suffer massive casualties when Saddam employed his chemical and biological weapons (that was when Dems were still "lying" about the weapons) You will also find that defeating the Taliban in Afghanistan was impossible, too--best fighters in the world, too mountainous, defeated the Soviets, etc. etc. In both cases, lib media declared "quagmire" within the first week.

THE DISINFORMATION - So What? Iraq is a lawless country in the midst of a civil war.
THE TRUTH - There cannot be a civil war when both sides are participating in a government. Again, we were told incessently by libs that creating a constitution would never happen. When it did, out came the spin meisters to try to downplay the achievement.

THE DISINFORMATION - Iraqi's IMPORT fuel. They barely have much more electricity than they had before the war. They have astronomical unemployment rates. People have been driven out of their homes and are paying through the nose to live in squallor due to astronmical rents for any place safe. The middle class of merchants and technologists with the means to do so have fled the country.
THE TRUTH - I said oil production, not fuel. Iraq exports oil (which we were supposed to have stolen--our sole reason for liberating them, right?)Infrastucture gains and improvements have been extensively documented here and elsewhere. We were told to expect a flood of refugees out of the country, but Iraqis are returning. Your claim is false.

THE DISINFORMATION - So what. The people who voted only voted for their religious sects.
THE TRUTH - Again, libs claimed there would never be elections, then that no one would vote. Time to start spinning again!

THE DISINFORMATION - Perhaps, but I don't believe that.
THE TRUTH - 80% of the country has been secured, whether you believe it or not

THE DISINFORMATION - So what? It did nothing to end the civil war.
THE TRUTH - By your measure, no accomplishment can mean anything as long as a handful of terrorists continue to set off bombs. The fact is that a brutal dictator has been deposed and executed. Perhaps it could have been carried out with more decorum, but your claims that it will "inflame hatred" and lead to more violence are straight out of the Al Jazeera talking points, and are no more true now than they have been in the past. And don't forget, if you had your way, Saddam's rape rooms, mass graves and weapons programs would still be going strong.

THE DISINFORMATION - I'd hardly give this administration credit for anything good coming out of Lebanon
THE TRUTH - Whether or not you credit the administration doesn't change the fact.

THE DISINFORMATION - Kadaffi ended his nuclear program for his own reasons
THE TRUTH - Libya had been under sanctions for over a decade. It was just coincidence that Moe gave up his weapons within a week of Saddam coming out of his spider hole. Yeah, right!

THE DISINFORMATION - Iraq is right now a gigantic training camp for Al Qaeda where they get hands on training on how to kill Americans, plenty of support from Iran and Syria. Al Qaeda is far better off now in Iraq then they were under Saddam
THE TRUTH - Iraq is a killing field for Al Qaeda terrorists, not a training ground. Of course, this is never reported by the MSM, or their deaths are characterized as civilian. Your estimation of Al Qaeda's position is considerably rosier than their own.










Cheney should resign or be fired!
http://www.controlcongress.com

It is clear Vice President Cheney attacked a CIA operative for political reasons and tried to cover it up. Libby's own defense points toward Cheney and Rove using their Public office power to intimidate and harm a CIA operative. Vice President Cheney is unfit to serve our Country. If President Bush refuses to force the resignation, than Congress should impeach the Vice President for his unpatriotic behavior. The office is bigger than any party.

MSNBC-WASHINGTON - Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald used his opening statement in the CIA leak trial Tuesday to allege that Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff lied about Cheney’s early involvement in the disclosure of a spy’s identity.

Fitzgerald said Cheney told his chief of staff, “Scooter” Libby, in 2003 that the wife of Iraq critic and former ambassador Joseph Wilson worked for the CIA, and that Libby spread that information to reporters. When that information got out, it triggered a federal investigation.

“But when the FBI and grand jury asked about what the defendant did,” Fitzgerald said, “he made up a story.” Fitzgerald alleged that Libby in September 2003 “wiped out” a Cheney note just before Libby’s first FBI interview when he said he learned about Wilson and his wife, CIA operative Valerie Plame, from reporters, not the vice president.

Defense: Libby was sacrificed

In their opening statements, Libby’s attorneys Theodore Wells said Bush administration officials tried to blame him for the leak to cover up for presidential adviser Karl Rove’s own disclosures

“They’re trying to set me up. They want me to be the sacrificial lamb,” Wells said, recalling the alleged conversation between Libby and Cheney. “I will not be sacrificed so Karl Rove can be protected.”

A bunch of gutless cowards

Is there not one politician among us who has an ounce of honor in his or her body?

Democrats and many Republicans trumpet a forthcoming, non-binding resolution of non-support for the war in Iraq. Just what does a non-binding resolution do - absolutely nothing. A so-called "non-binding resolution" is a coward's way out of not taking a political stand.

Is this not the land of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln?

Or is it the land of Chuck Hagel, Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi, who turn in fear and cringe in the face of our nation's enemies?

How would George Washington have felt as he was getting ready to cross a frozen Delaware River, with a cold, hungry, ill-equipped and outnumbered Continental Army, and heard Congress just voted on a non-binding resolution not supporting him and his Army. I probably would not have the freedom to be speaking of this today.

The first Congress faced the same perils as does the 110th Congress, the difference between the two is that members of the first Congress had the courage to plant their feet firmly in the ground and band together to make it clear to the British that they would not stand for tyranny or oppression and were willing to fight for freedom in spite of a rough majority of colonists who wanted to remain loyal to the British crown.

But the first Continental Congress had some things that many politicians sorely lack today - courage, honor and commitment to a cause greater than themselves. Right or wrong, they stood by their decision to forge a new country. Some paid a heavy price in family blood and treasure, but at least they stood by their principles and didn't hide behind a non-binding resolution.

Our men and women of the U.S. armed forces are facing a determined foe that is willing to win at any cost and return the Iraqi people to a tyrannical rule of murder, rape and destruction. There is only one thing that the men and women of our armed forces need to win - they need this country's unequivocal support, no strings or non-binding resolutions.

The bullets, rocket-propelled grenades and improvised explosive devices of our enemies in Iraq don't appear to care what their target is just so long as they cause death and damage to those standing in the way of their victory over the United States and the forces of freedom and reform among the Iraqi people.

Our men and women cannot be victorious without the support of Congress and the nation. Is it too much to ask of this nation and its Congress that we not snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

I call on Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, Sen. Ted Kennedy, Sen. Joe Biden and Sen. Chuck Hagel to tell the American people why they advocate defeat for the Iraqi people when they are so close to gaining their freedom just as we were over 200 years ago. When our backs were up against a wall, the French stood by us until we, as a fledgling nation, were able to stand on our own. We need to be as the French were for us and stand by the Iraqi people until they are able to stand up and breathe the sweet air of freedom.

There are still causes that are far greater than ourselves

Critical Bill
That is what I mean by the;
"Can't we all just get along" syndrom

The IslamoNazies you think of as martyrs want to convert, kill or enslave everyone on this planet who is not a Muslim.
It is not possible to reason with them.
They believe it is honorable to lie to khafirs if it will help to kill them.
All Muslims do not believe the same as these violent cultists but they still shelter and finance them.
These kind of wars have started this way for centuries and follow the same pattern. Eventually they do manage to anger their victims to the point they say "Kill them all, let God sort it out."
Kosovo was the last time this happened and America butted in to stop the extermination of Muslims. You see the thanks we got for it.
When America eventually goes ALL OUT exterminating Muslims, who will be able to come to their rescue next time?
The Muslims who fear to cast out the violent ones are commiting suicide and destroying Islam by sheltering and financing them and can't see it coming!

Wolfy, get a clue!
No one suggested Dick Cheney did these things personally, any more than he was personally responsible for the failure of his prediction that the terrorist insurgency would be surpressed by now. The point is that many of the positive outcomes predicted by him and the administration have come to pass.

Regarding me lying - as usual, a lib ad hominum attack with no supporting evidence. How familiar, and how tiresome!

Regarding weapons - there is plenty of evidence that the weapons existed. Despite public perception, weapons inspectors were not in Iraq on a scavenger hunt to find weapons; they were there to obtain proof that Saddam had destroyed his existing weapons stockpile that was documented after Desert Storm. No such proof was ever forthcoming. Perhaps you have it? But I forgot, Saddam actually secretly destroyed his weapons so he could remain under crippling economic sanctions. And only one other man was aware of the deception--George Bush, who then invaded to reveal his "lie"

Pitbull
A little too much information for the pages of Townhall but I hear ya. I loved Clerks - is the sequel any good? Speaking of movies Pan's Labyrinth is just out in the States - bonkers (and the baddies are fascists so it'll probably be accused of being communist propaganda, but they were in Raiders of the Lost Ark too) but brilliant. Well worth checking out if you can stand subtitles... adios I'm outta here for the day...

"Dingleberry"?
The last time I heard that insult was in "Clerks". I didn't have you down as a Kevin Smith fan Pitbull. Wonders will never cease...

Myopine
I didn't get an apology, it was a bit of sarcasm, obvisouly way over your head but there you go. Green credits eh? That's market forces for you - don'cha just love 'em!
I have plenty idea about the scope of this "war"; you think it can be won conventionally by forcing the enemy to submit to our will through the use of force, I don't. Well, at least you are in a minority now...

John Galt, please wake up...
You are the victim of the talking points of the neocons and have fallen for their disinformation and propaganda.

I respectfully disagree with nearly every talking point from them you posted.

THE DISINFORMATION:
- Coalition forces demolished Saddam's army, including the "feared" Republican Guard, and captured Baghdad within weeks, with historically minimal loss of Coalition forces and civilian casualties.
THE TRUTH
- No one of consequence really thought that coalition forces would have any problem defeating Saddam. There were many people however inside the administration as well as outside it who did not think this was the real issue. As Colin Powell told Bush, once you break Iraq you own it. It became our problem to fix it, and the administration has never had a plan with any chance of "fixing" it. Look at the chaos they have there now, and it is getting worse not better.

THE DISINFORMATION
- Developed a process that yielded an Iraqi constitution
THE TRUTH
So What? Iraq is a lawless country in the midst of a civil war. Until that war ends and they develop some statesmen and a government that has the support of all the people - not just the ruling religious sect - their constitution doesn't mean anything to them.

THE DISINFORMATION
- Conducted elections and seated a government with 70%+ turnout
THE TRUTH
So what. The people who voted only voted for their religious sects. The government is weak and dominated by religious militias. The elected leaders have not secured the country and no one in Iraq has any faith in its ability to run the country.

THE DISINFORMATION
- Secured 80% of the country
THE TRUTH
Perhaps, but I don't believe that. In any case, they did not secure Baghdad or Anbar where stability is absolutely essential to ending the civil war.

THE DISINFORMATION
- Made major strides in infrastructure and oil production
THE TRUTH
Where do you get that? Iraqi's IMPORT fuel. They barely have much more electricity than they had before the war. They have astronomical unemployment rates. People have been driven out of their homes and are paying through the nose to live in squallor due to astronmical rents for any place safe. The middle class of merchants and technologists with the means to do so have fled the country.

THE DISINFORMATION
- Saddam captured, prosecuted and executed by his fellow Iraqis
THE TRUTH
So what? It did nothing to end the civil war. The sectarian way it was carried out only served to inflame further hatred between the Sunnis and Shias.

THE DISINFORMATION
- Encouraged a democratic process in Lebanon (unfortunately since undermined by Iran and Syria)
THE TRUTH
I'd hardly give this administration credit for anything good coming out of Lebanon.


- Ended Pakistani nuclear proliferation
Maybe.

THE DISINFORMATION
- Ended Kadaffi's WMD development
THE TRUTH
Kadaffi ended his nuclear program for his own reasons, primarily to end economic sanctions and because he knew it wasn't getting anywhere. I'm glad it ended but it would have ended anyway with out the war in Iraq.

THE DISINFORMATION
- Ended Iraqi funding, weapons support, training camps and shelter for Al Qaeda.
THE TRUTH
What baloney. Iraq is right now a gigantic training camp for Al Qaeda where they get hands on training on how to kill Americans, plenty of support from Iran and Syria. Al Qaeda is far better off now in Iraq then they were under Saddam.

Pitbull
So we agree to differ. I never thought for a second I would change your mind. However, I never said that I agree with them. I don't think I'm a socialist - in my eyes I am not, regardless of what you think of me, so I am not. In just the same way, a suicide bomber will be thought of as a martyr by his family, friends, colleagues etc regardless of what I think of him or her. They will call themselves whatever they want, it isn't a question of the words I "allow" them to use. I hate what they do; there aren't any virgins waiting for them and their version of martyrdom is an anathema to what I believe s right. But what I believe means as much to them as what I watch on tv tonight.

Critical Bill
I don't recall any apology unless you count my saying no one here is privy to America's war plans as an apology.
I will give you another then;
MOST of the Liberals here, a few Conservatives and I think YOU, don't have a clue of the scope of this war or what it is about.
Regardless of the outcome in Iraq, it will not be the end of this war.
We are about midway in a war that has been going on for centuries. Whichever way it goes from this point;
NONE OF US WILL SEE IT END.

You are not a bit curious about where a massive amount of British Tax money goes?
I think you will find it goes to purchase "Green Credits" from some 3rd World country.
Careful now, don't you say that naughty word!

Credit where credit's due
It's disingenuous to call it the Biden plan. The idea of three autonomous regions in Iraq was first presented in detail by Peter Galbraith four years ago. He proposed that the 3 regions be totally separate nations similar to the breakup of Yugoslavia, with Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia as independent entities.

There would be no central government in Baghdad and no oil revenue sharing. Each group would have their own security forces and their own system of government. Baghdad would likely be split in two, divided by the Tigris River into Sunni and Shia areas, much like what is already happening with the migration from mixed neighborhoods to Sunni and Shia strongholds.

The main opponents have been the Sunnis, the United States and Turkey.

The first consideration must be an independent Kurdistan. Unfortunately, the Bush administration has steadfastly refused to support Kurdish independence, and is losing Kurdish support for US operations in Iraq because of their continued mantra of Iraqi unity.
It's clear from recent visits by Iraqi president Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, to Iran and Syria, that he is attempting to line up support for an independent, or at least continued autonomy for Kurdistan with neighbors that the US considers enemies.
Not only has Bush not stood up to Turkey in defense of Kurdish autonomy, he has fanned the flames of conflict by supporting Turkish oppression of its own Kurdish minority, as well as remaining silent while Turkey threatens military action inside Iraqi Kurdistan.
Anyone who thinks it's good policy to polarize the only group that has consistently backed our efforts in Iraq has a warped view of what constitutes good policy.

Bush should have appointed Galbraith Ambassador to Iraq instead of John(Death Squads) Negroponte and then Zalmay(PNAC neocon)Khalilzad.

To utahnotmormon
The actual definition:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
____________________________________________________
When you hamper the war effort by publicly preaching that the war has failed and that the troops should be removed, while not removing said troops you are giving aid and comfort to the enemy while our troops are engaged with them. There are several ways that this could be avoided. (1) They could do all their arguing and carping behind doors in closed sessions. (2) They could say I think we need to change to x policy so that we can win, or finally (3) They can say we have lost this war lets vote to bring the troops home now.
____________________________________________________
They are not doing any of these because (1) They want it public because their interest is not in the troops and not in the US but in their own reelection. (2) They have no desire to see us win because all they want is for Bush to lose so they can achieve (1) above. (3) and they will not openly say we have lost and bring them home now again because the want (1) above. So it all boils down to personal gain for reelection over the needs of the country and the blood of the soldiers. Not only is it treason, but its sinfully obscene without any nudity.

Cheney Did All That??? Himself???
You don't even lie well JohnGalt.

We're talking about Dick Cheney here. You know Dick "we will be greeted as liberators" Cheney.

When you show some proof of those WMD's then we'll start talking you seriously. Until then, your tirade is just another joke.

One Thing Biden does not come across as
is unserious. I would trust him to lead on foreign policy more than the current administration. Hillary too, for that matter. Coming from someone on the far Right like me, that doesn't make things look very rosey for the Republicans in 2008.

Gunny G said...
... "We have one true blue ally...Israel, and even they've shown signs of losing their toughness against Arab scum..."

While I don't agree with that completely, we have lost both respect and face in the world outside the United States. Every poll of international opinion about the US shows that.

We can thank our president and his foolish war that even he now admits we are losing for this. The Brits are on their way out of Iraq no matter what. They have had enough. We have no other allies of any real consequence in this war. The people in this country have turned against it.

Rant and rave as you like, this is not the fault of the democrats or the MSM. The administration has gotten everything it asked for and more up to this point. Only losers blame everyone but themselves for their problems. This war and the disastrous consequences of it rest on the shoulders of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld.

Biden's plan has a better chance of working than anything this administration has come up with. He is gaining more and more republican as well as democrat support.

Thank goodness we only have 2 more years less a few days before we get a new president. In the meantime, lets all get behind Biden's plan and send money to his presidential campaign!!

JohnGalt
"Everyone forgets the communications captured when Al Zarqawi was killed indicating that the terrorists were at the end of their rope and losing. Now they know that they only have to continue setting off a few roadside bombs for the next 2 years and they can achieve victory without a single triumph on the battlefield."
=============
Apparently, the terrorists are reading American history of what happens when Dhimmicrats are running the show.

pitbull
Bark, bark. Bark. Bark.

Translation: "I won't answer the question."

Pitbull
You are only capable of seeing this from your own perspective. But as I've said before, our perspective is meaningless to the average wannabe suicide bomber. They, their families and the colleagues consider thems to be martyrs, so it is true. And i'm not a scientologist... i'll leave that to loonies like Tom Cruise.

Saddam Hussein - Genius!
Saddam reaches out from the grave to poke one last thumb in our eye. By one simple, yet brilliant, tactic - removing his weapons stockpiles to Syria - he gave the Democrats all the ammunition they needed to win his war for him. He knew that we are fighting two different wars. GWB and our coalition allies are fighting a war against islamofascism, spearheaded in Iraq. The Democrats and their media allies are fighting a no-holds-barred war against Bush. In their estimation, bringing about a US failure in Iraq is a small price to pay for victory in the '08 election.

Critical Bill, you asked for any instances in which Dick Cheney had been right. Here are a few:

- Coalition forces demolished Saddam's army, including the "feared" Republican Guard, and captured Baghdad within weeks, with historically minimal loss of Coalition forces and civilian casualties.

- Developed a process that yielded an Iraqi constitution

- Conducted elections and seated a government with 70%+ turnout

- Secured 80% of the country

- Made major strides in infrastructure and oil production

- Saddam captured, prosecuted and executed by his fellow Iraqis

- Encouraged a democratic process in Lebanon (unfortunately since undermined by Iran and Syria)

- Ended Pakistani nuclear proliferation

- Ended Kadaffi's WMD development

- Ended Iraqi funding, weapons support, training camps and shelter for Al Qaeda.

All of these were deemed impossible by Democrats and the media (but I repeat myself)

Everyone forgets the communications captured when Al Zarqawi was killed indicating that the terrorists were at the end of their rope and losing. Now they know that they only have to continue setting off a few roadside bombs for the next 2 years and they can achieve victory without a single triumph on the battlefield.

Primus54
Sorry for the delay, had to deal with something.

I don't call the UK a staunch ally anymore. That they are an ally cannot be disputed but a staunch one, no. A staunch ally is one that stands by you through thick and thin. No matter what. While the Brits have a few in government who have Churchillian guts, the rest are pathetic appeasers. EX: Dhimmi Galloway.

1. Their society is increasingly anti-American Muslim.
2. Their society is increasingly pacifistic.

We have one true blue ally...Israel, and even they've shown signs of losing their toughness against Arab scum.

Myopine
Why, so I can be accused of changing the topic again/ Don't worry, your apology is accepted... but I'm not the person to ask about green taxes. I know diddly squat about it, other than in certain circumsances I agree with higher taxes for gas guzzlers. If you''ve ever been to London you would also ask yourself why anyone here would want, never mind need, a hummer. But communism? No, I don't think so. Isn't it more about sying, well, if you want to drive something that guzzles gas you'd better be prepared to pay extra for it. I see no problem with that. as for where the money goes, I have no idea. I should find out but I'd be surprised if it went to third world dictators...

Biden's Plan will be next one we try
It doesn't matter what this foolish administration or its supporters think or say about it. The next plan we try will be Biden's after Bush's phony surge fails to get results.

Its no longer just his plan. The smart republicans with an eye on 2008 are deserting the administration like rats jumping off a sinking ship. Now it has bi-partisan support.

Any plan worth supporting in a war has to have bi-partisan support. No one can disagree with that, even people who don't like Biden's plan. And if you don't like Biden's plan then its on you to come up with a better one that's practical and will get bipartisan support.

Bush has no more bullets in his gun after this. He doesn't even have enough support or the trust of his own party in Congress that would allow him to try any other plan he comes up with after this.

Thank God for Biden and his plan. Biden's plan has bi-partisan support.

It is the only one that a majority of the Iraqi people will support.

Its the only practical plan left. Lets all get behind it.

You can read all the details and contribute money to his presidential campaign at

http://www.joebiden.com

The plan details are posted in the pdf file "Iraq: a Way Forward" on that web site. Read it and if you understand Iraq, the war on terror, human nature, or insurgencies you will be converted to a Biden supporter.

Critical Bill
As to changing present tactics;
No one really knows what they are yet.

I wish you would tell us about England.
Our Congress is contemplating a Green Tax too.
http://www.junkscience.com/index.php?option=com_Content&task=view&id=319&Itemid=1

Isn't this a great step toward World Communism?
Does England's Green Tax money go to 3rd World Dictators too?

Vic
I suggest you brush up on what constitutes aiding and abetting and the definition of treason in the United States.
Your current definition fits Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, and unfortunately, soon in Venezuela.

Pitbull
Enough already. People will make up their own minds about my posts and our little debate on martyrdom; I don't expect a wave of support on Tonwhall but I'll stick to my guns.

To John Konop
See my posting of 0:945, I included a worthless turd with an (R) after his name. If you can't contribute something positive and ALL you can do is PUBLICLY carp, whine, and generally support the enemy, then YES you are aiding and abetting the enemy and that falls under the category of treason. The problem is after relently bad press from the LYING press the public has lost faith because they are not tracking this war from sources other than what is on TV or in the New Traitor Times. You so called anti-war crowd should change your names to the anti-US crowd because your not really against war. If you were you would be in the streets protesting the other side in addition to our side.

Myopine
Again you are putting words into my mouth. All I have said is that the current plan is going nowhere fast and that a re-think is long overdue. That doesn't equate to "why can't we all get along"...

PITBULL ALL BARK
One more time try to focus on the words and answer the question.

Do you think that Senator John Warner (R-VA),Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS), Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX),Bill O'Reilly and Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN) are all liberal traitors for speaking out against President Bush’s failed Iraq policy?

Hoooowl.
Bark. bark. bark, bark.

You're welcome winger.

Pitbull
I can only repeat what I have said here already. I have not said anything about persecution, you are like Myopine who can't win an argument so resort to putting words into my mouth. If you are so blind that you can't see it, the "persecution" radical Musims feel today is aimed at the US, it's invasion of Iraq and its role in the modern middle east. Whether that is correct or not is irrelevant; they perceive it so it is true. The perception makes it true even if you (and I) don't agree with it.

Critical Bill
I am being as plain & blunt as possible.
YOU are the one mouthing this;
"Can't we just all get along" crap.

(No the famous quote is not yours but you are implying the same thing.)

We are in a war Bill.
War is not nice.

Wiseone
As I said, we perceive suicide bombing, and suicide in general, as cowardly. No debate from me about that. But I would disagree about its historical significance - in ancient Rome, defeated generals and disgraced politicians considered suicide as a respectable way out. It was expected of them. Again, whether we think it is an honourable thing to do or not is irrelevant - becuse clearly many radical Muslims think it is respectable, so long as you take plenty with you...

Christians didn't cut off heads
Someone should have told Sir Walter Raleigh that right before King James(yeah, the Bible translator) had his head cut off.

Seriously
The rubbish you guys buy into is hilarious! That's why I love it here. The sheer looniness is beyond compare.

So yeah, I understand that because every other winger talking point has failed, the new one is: Dems aren't serious about the war... LOL!

Too funny. What's next? Dems support Al Qaeda. Oh wait, that's been done...

28%. What does that number mean to you all?

Pitbull
You have not read my replies very carefully. As I said before, being a martyr is not about how the message is delivered. It's about how you perceive yourself, and how your followers perceive you and your actions. I agree with what you say about Christians and Muslims, to the extent that one uses violence and the other did not. But that doesn't make a blind bit of difference when you are thinking about martyring yourself...

Myopine
You are proving yourself incapable of a coherent argument, and rather than attempting one all you can do is put words into my mouth. Where did I say "be killed"? Personally I would rather stay alive thank you very much, and I would rather we all did, even you.

Easy way out
Contrary to assertions by Critical Bill (and others), suicide historically has not been viewed as an act of courage.

It has generally been considered an act of quitting or taking the easy way out.

If you examine literature, war, and the litarature of war throughout history, you will see that deaths that are considered courageous nearly always involve concern for SOMEONE ELSE (you know, kind of like American soldiers fighting and dying to free Iraqis and protect civilians back home).

Committing suicide rather than being captured and facing those you have wronged is not considered courageous. Example: Hitler committed suicide. Some act of bravery that was.

Lacking seriousness?
I cannot believe that Limbaugh accuses Biden and Levin of lacking seriousness on this war. When our efforts have looked more like a Keystone Kops movie than a serious war since the beginning, it is growing increasingly difficult for anyone to take it seriously. Obviously the American people have lost trust and faith in our conduct of the war, according to all polls. The congressional reaction from not only Democrats but increasing numbers of Republicans reflects that skepticism.

And then Limbaugh alleges that a withdrawal with validate bin Laden and embolden the enemy? What does he think we have done already? Osama bin Laden wants us right where he has us. As our own National Intelligence Estimate last year noted, our presence in Iraq is a leading cause for the growing radicalization of Muslim youth, helping grow the next genreration of anti-American terrorists. And we have also done more to help Iran than they ever could have done for themeselves. By destroying Iraq as a strategic counterbalance to the Iranian regime, we have given Iran a freer hand in the region and greatly increased their influence.

And now we are relying on Nouri al Mailki's government to validate our new strategy? Give me a break.

Al Maliki now says the need for American troops would decline dramatically in three - six months if we just intensify our efforts to train and equip Iraqi troops. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/17/AR2007011702346.html

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't this the strategy that he and Bush just decided wasn't working? Didn't they just agree on a "surge" of U.S. troops to provide security to Baghdad residents while de-emphasizing, for at least the time being, further Iraqization of the conflict?

And isn't the reason the fact that Iraqi forces are so infiltrated with Shiite militias that they have often become an arm of the Shiite insurgency, carrying out the ethnic cleansing campaign against Sunnis?

This same Prime Minister, who owes his position to the support of radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al Sadr's Mahdi Army, is the one who told President Bush recently that he was prepared to crack down on the Shiite militias, resulting in the "new way forward" announced two weeks ago. Now he's saying he wants fewer troops, not more, and they should be used for training the Iraqi troops, not providing security.

Seriously folks, the Keystone Kops had nothing on this comedy routine. It looks to me like al Maliki is saying that Bush's new strategy isn't what he wants. Reading between the lines, it sounds like he just wants to be freed up to finish off the Sunnis and have American troops support him in his ethnic cleansing operations.

Bottom line, it looks like al Maliki voted for Bush's new strategy before he voted against it. So where does that leave us?

Who is we?
Pitbull?
You think you actually speak for others besides yourself on this blog?
How socialistic.
Whatever happened to good old conservative rugged individualism?

Critical Bill
Like I said, WHATEVER IT TAKES!
We have only two choices, KILL OR BE KILLED!
I do wish you would stop suggesting we do the latter.

Pitbull Caught With Foot in Mouth
The reason you will not answer the question is because you are caught. The post show all you can do is attack like a PITBULL, but cannot think for yourself. You know Pitbulls get thrown away when they cannot fight anymore.


Do you think that Senator John Warner (R-VA),Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS), Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX),Bill O'Reilly and Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN) are all liberal traitors for speaking out against President Bush’s failed Iraq policy?

Myopine
I'm sorry you can't take a friendly reply. Not that you want my sympathy. However, it is you that brought up British politics - perhaps you should correct yourself first?

Pitbull
It doesn't matter if you don't think they are martyrs. Your opinion, your approval, is not what they seek. What is important is how they see themselves. I'm sure the ancient Romans didn't see the early christians as martyrs; they just saw them as an object of derision and a good supply of bodies for the arena. What I think of them is irrlevant too. But you can be certain that they see themselves as such...

Critical Bill Communist Manifesto?
Get us interested in sports now?
You haven't beed discussing sports, you have been debating American National Politics.
NBA&NFL are not quite the same as DNC&GOP.

Myopine
Where did I call them brave? Suicide bombing or any of the things that you describe is as cowardly an act as is imaginable. But more violence, more dead Muslims, isn't going to stop them. They will never all be killed; "whatver it takes" is impossible, because like the hydra's head the more you chop off the more will appear.

Pitbull
Ridiculous drivel seems to be your specialty. I would think you'd be more than willing join in the frivolity.

As far as socialism, you must be very upset with the Bush/Rice socialist plan to distribute Iraqi oil revenue. But then you'd have to actually state a position on an issue.

Pitbull
I disagree. Jut because you define somebody as something does not make it so. I have many left wing sympathies but in general I am not a socialist, at least not in the proper sense of it. The problem is that the definition is now so blurred, where anyone who is not a card carrying Republican is tarred with the same brush, that you cannot distinguish a socialist from a sunflower.

Critical Bill your 10:46
This killing business is THEIR IDEA.
They started it and could probably walk away today and this war would end.
If we walk away they will come here to fight.

As to their great bravery and willingness to die, I have seen accounts of examples where they ambush & backshoot soldiers then run into Mosques
and cower behind women in the Women's section and use cell phones to call people to bring children to serve as human shields for them to escape.

They DELIBERATELY TARGET unarmed civilians when they attack. It is enough to make IslamoNazi another word for COWARD.
As to the number we must kill to attain peace, WHATEVER IT TAKES!
If it was up to me I would have made an example at that Mosque and not even a mouse would have survived!

Pitbull Has No Answer
http://www.controlcongress.com

Pitbull & Seawolf

Do you think that Senator John Warner (R-VA),Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS), Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX),Bill O'Reilly and Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN) are all liberal traitors for speaking out against President Bush’s failed Iraq policy?


I still like my solution of yesterday
Get rid of all the old B-61 gravity bombs that we don't need anymore. Cockroaches don't build IEDs and don't fly aircraft.

Pitbull
Go change your pants. The point I was making, and apologies if it wasn't clear enough, is about creating martyrs rather than the methods they use to spread their message. The facts are the same; Romans knew they were creating martyrs by killing Christians but they carried on anyway. We are doing the same in Iraq, regardless of the manner in which their message is spread. It won't work.
Myopine - there are many wonderful things about the UK, just as there are many wonderful things about the US. Neither society is perfect, far from it they are both deeply flawed. I won't go into it too much here but football, rugby and cricket sum most of it up for me!

Critical Bill
There are some things you Brits do that puzzle me.
Like this new "GreenTax";
What is that money going to do for the English People?

And your gun confiscation law that disarmed all honest people and made them helpless victims so crime soared out of control where police can't cope with it. Why don't you repeal that law?

Everyone here knows all about America.
Tell us all the good things you have in England.

Matthew
Good point about Al-Sadr. The much maligned(and rarely defined) MSM always refers to him as the "fiery anti-American cleric."

Several points about him, though go completely unreported. He is anti-Iranian and an Iraqi nationalist, as opposed to Abdul Aziz Al-Hakim of the SCIRI Party and leader of the Badr Brigade militia, who recently met with Bush. he is currently the most popular figure in Iraq, at least with the Shia majority. He is seemingly immune to direct US attack, as he is very much visible in his enclave in Najaf.

So, the attempt seems to be to dismantle his organization without actually taking him out, which would spark an incredibly violent reaction from his followers, many of whom are in the National Army. It seems to me that, much as it is distasteful, the US should directly engage Al-Sadr as a legitimate force within Iraq and figure out where he fits into the mix. It's not like we don't have a history of dealing with and negotiating with unsavory chracters.

Otherwise, we might as well just drop a bomb on his mosque and be done with it.

Pitbull
Patronising I may be, but I am going to try to stop resorting to personal attacks. I know I've done it lots in the past but it doesn't get anywhere. I am not a socialist though - as I've said before I have spent my entire working career in finance in London... a tough job if you're a socialist.

Hey GunnyG
I haven't had the chance to check out the link you provided, but wouldn't you include the UK in your reliable ally column? And I am talking about the decisions made by their leadership in support of the US, NOT the opinions of their citizenry. Basically, I'm thinking about Thatcher, Majors, & Blair in more recent times.

Myopine
I took a quote from Nelson Mandela to illustrate the power of taking a different route. I am not suggesting disarmament, I am suggesting that perhaps, just perhaps, the best results don't always come from the use of force. Mandela saw it, Ghandi saw it, MLK saw it. Sometimes force is necessary, but we are dealing with an enemy here who can only be strengthened by it. It ain't going to work. These people don't care if they live or die, to kill them makes them martyrs. Just like early Christians... and did the Romans use of force kill off Christianity? If I am wrong, explain to me how the use of force will win this ideological battle, beyond killing a billion Muslims...?

Critical Bill
The USA started out as a REPUBLIC and it is clearly evident that our Founding Fathers (the ones who spanked you Brits) expected it to remain a Republic. That changed when Socialist FDR became the President and began to expand the Federal Gov't.

Seawolf
You have just noted several reasons why the Senate is also known as the world's most exclusive country club.

Most of these guys have never learned what a "public servant" is.

Yesterday, while Carl Levin was posturing for the TV cameras, Pfizer announced they are closing their R&D facilities in Ann Arbor and Kalamazoo, MI (Levin's home state).

Michigan is already reeling fom setbacks to the domestic auto industry, many of which have been inflicted by federal environmental regulations.

Now another one of Michigan's largest employers is cutting jobs in the state AND SENDING 70% OF THEM ELSEWHERE.

Levin and Stabenow, Michigan's other Democrat Senator, are both on board with the Democrats' plan to hammer pharmaceuticals like Pfizer on prices for prescription drugs while one of their state's most important employers is reducing its Michigan presence on a large scale (3,500 jobs will be lost at the Ann Arbor facility alone).

Levin and Stabenow have also been on board, steadfastly, with Democrat (no-) energy policy which seeks to punish Big Oil for making a big profits instead of encouraging Big Oil to make us independent of foreign sources.

Levin can't even competently and effectively represent the people who elected him. Why should his opinion on anything else be respected?

I'll believe it when I see it
So, we now are going to get aggressive with the enemy, Yeah right..... The first time we start killing some towels and a woman gets in the way the policy will change again. We dont have the stomach for real war. We have become too soft and the vast majority of the country has never had to make a sacrifice as a result of military action. Nor have their lives been effected in any way. So they can sit back hug trees and say "give peace a chance" as they sway to a John Lennon flashback. Someone should tell them it takes two to make peace. Where is Patton when you need him?

Critical Bill
I went back and read that post twice looking for some part that looked like you were serious.
If you are indeed serious that we should disarm and fall on the mercy of the IslamoNazies and we will have peace then I can only think you must be one of those British Muslims.

I have seen some strange posts here at TH but you are the champ to date. I can see why they threw you out of every Blog in England and you come here to meddle in American politics.

Hal Donahue
Funny, my nephew on tour #3 says the exact opposite.


Dear oh dear...
You lot will agree with anything so long as you don't agree with a liberal. Where did I say the US is not a republic? It is, but it is also a democracy. I can't believe I'm even involved in this discussion... Pitbull, I have nothing personal against you. I enjoy these threads; I wouldn't come back if I didn't. But to take a leaf from Limbaugh's book, try not to resort to ad hominem attacks and try to answer. Oh, and Primus, there's no such place as Chestershire. There is a Cheshire though.

Vic
Agreed. I have an old buddy who lost an eye when some foreign scumbag tossed a rock at the US Embassy he was guarding. Ended an excellent career early.

I would pay a YEAR's SALARY to see us withdraw our help and aid and watch the rest of the world suffer. They need a reminder of who is feeding and protecting them.

pitbull
I travel a lot on contracts and missions and God help the vermin if I see it. I'll GLADLY pay a fine for stomping the pizz out of scumbag spitting on a GI. The H*ll with all of them.

To GunnyG
I have very little faith in polls Gunny, particularly one run by the BBC which is even more left wing than the New Traitor Times. However in this case I do agree that they don't like us. They didn't like us in the 50's when they tried to kill Nixon in S.A. They didn't like us in the 60's when everything Soviet was being worshipped. (This is where the liberal are still stuck) They didn't like us in the 70's when I was overseas. There has been a lot of years of Mr. I hate American (sorry Clint) and it had nothing to do with Iraq and a lot to do with old fashion evy.

Critical Bill
The US is not a democracy, it is a republic. It is more like Rome than Athens. (In many ways)

Critical Bill
While there are few things in life that I enjoy more than debating a liberal, even one from the land of my ancestors (Chestershire), alas, duties for which I get paid and for which my employer expects a fair return in exchange must take precedence at this time.

I will try to jump on here during lunch.

Cheers!

More on oil revenue sharing
http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=13878

>U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice stated that Kurds do not have the right over oil in their areas, Reuters reported on Thursday.

On the issue of the ownership of oil Reuters stated, “Ethnic Kurds whose region includes the country's northern oil fields including the giant Kirkuk field have signed some contracts with foreign oil companies, spurring confusion over who has the authority to ink contracts.”

Rice said the oil law would not give the Kurds such authority.

"Even though the Kurds might have been expected ... to insist that they will simply control all the resources themselves, that's not what the oil law does," Rice said.

Rice predicted what would be in the Iraqi oil law. She was not asked how she knew what is in the law that is not yet written.

The KRG insists that the Iraqi constitution gives the right of ownership of oil in Kurdistan Region to the Kurds. Rice dose not think so. This could end the Kurdish dream of owning their own oil.

What Rice stated is elaboration of what President Bush stated in his speech on Wednesday, relating to his “new” strategy in Iraq. Bush stated, “To give every Iraqi citizen a stake in the country's economy, Iraq will pass legislation to share oil revenues among all Iraqis.” <

Please refer to this post whenever praising the administration for spreading freedom, or even supporting those in Iraq who have supported us.


utahnotmormon
Thanks. I've been saying for YEARS that it is high-time to bail on these idiots.

The Eurabians could not handle Bosnia on their own and we had to intervene and we're STILL THERE! WHY!?

Why are we in NATO? There is NO MORE Soviet union.

They should thank their lucky stars that I'm not the POTUS. I would not lift a finger to help ANYONE who wasn't a long-time and staunch ally and there is only one nation that fits that bill, Israel.

and Primus...
... glad to be back. I know you've missed me.

Primus
Not cut and pasted from anywhere, but I know it's an argument that has been made many times. I refer you to my reply I have just posted to Myopine...

Myopine
I know we all make flippant comments on here, I'm as guilty as anyone else. But now that you've made your joke, how about attempting a real reply?

Critical Bill
Ahhh... my old friend CB is back!

Bill, I'm sorry to say this, but your 9:34 AM post could just as easily have been anybody's comment by copying and pasting from the Daily Kos.

Not up to your usual standards, Old Boy!

:-)

Pitbull
So now you are claiming that the US is NOT a democracy? I agree that it isn't the same as other democracies in its nature and the way that it works, but you're going to have a hard time getting many people to agree with you. Stil, best of luck. But yo're arguing over nothing. You are looking for evidence that dmocrats don't send care packages? I don't know the answer to that, I guess people don't pin their political allegiance on care packages. But many, many democrats send them, I have no doubt about that. However most democrats don't want any more young men and women in the armed forces dying for this particular cause - how is that not caring about them? You are so blinkered by your politics that you can't see the real world any more.

Critical Bill your 9:19 post?
That is a GREAT immitation of Loyal Democrat!
Can you do Benny Hill for us now?

GunnyG is right.
>work on our infrastructure, our economy, OUR Security, run the illegals out<

I would add that we need to re-define what constitutes national security and national defense.

Vic/Pitbull
Check the poll from the BBC on how the rest of the world hates us.

High-time we pulled back and let them friggin rot in their own sh*t. Next time there is an earthquake in Iran, a tsunami, or a flood, let them suffer. Maybe they can call the commies in China and get some aid. Either way, they can suck it.

Let the Frogs or the Canuckistanis step up to the plate. Then WE can sit on the sidelines, work on our infrastructure, our economy, OUR Security, run the illegals out, and laugh at the pathetic pizzants in the 2d/3rd world dumps.

If you ain't a dyed-in-the-wool ally (Israel), next time that you have a disaster, call, 800-CALLBONO.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6286755.stm

Now that
even prominent Republicans are seeing the light perhaps we can refrain from seeing the war as a 'Liberal vs Conservative' issue, and seriously discuss what's going on.
I really hope this 'surge' works, but if casualties in Baghdad aren't down after say, six months we should pull the plug.
Our troops fought bravely; we've obviously given the Iraqis something they're not ready for.

At 6:32 AM
Primus 54 writes:

> before this day is through, this thread will be full of liberals accusing you of "extremism" while defending the likes of Biden, Durbin & Kennedy as somehow representing the "mainstream" of America.<

I wish I had predicted that the thread would be full of emotional rhetoric making accusations of treason, cowardice, gutless, emboldening the enemy, undermining the mission, etc, without ever talking specifically about the situation in Iraq, the current strategy, the possibilities of success and failure in areas that are integral to stability in Iraq.

Generic rhetoric is pointless from both sides of the aisle, and Limbaugh does nothing to pinpoint the pros and cons of the current strategy. He just whines.

NEOCONS WANT TO RULE THE WORLD
http://www.controlcongress.com

Do all the NEOCONS think that Senator John Warner (R-VA),Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS), Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX),Bill O'Reilly and Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN) are all liberal traitors for speaking out against President Bush’s failed Iraq policy?

I think some of you would be more comfortable in China. They have a one party system that kills or puts opposition in prison

Pitbull
You want a democracy, you stay in the States and live with it. You want a dictatorship, relocate to Zimbabwe. See which one you prefer.

a quote
A young troop on his way back off two weeks leave stopped by the local VFW the nigt before he left to go back. Of course everyone was asking what he and the troops etc needed. After all the banter and as he was leaving he said: "You know what we really need? Get us the hell out of there." Amen

Talking of p*ssing down people's backs..
Isn't that what this administration has been doing from the word go? Maybe the Deomcrats should get a lesson from Cheney, Bush and Rummy on how to do it more effectively?

Gutless Democrats
I have said it before and I will say it again to all the gutless Democrats, including that worthless turd in the center of the picture showing the triumvirate of turds. Either come up with your own plan for victory (not slow death), support Bushes plan, or vote to get the H*ll out NOW. Anything else is, YES, traitorous wasting of the lives of our troops. Don’t say you’ll maintain funding because you “support” the troops while keeping them engaged with no hope of success because you fight, carp, and cling to the door edges at last call. And don’t p*ss down my back and tell me its raining ala Josey Wales either.

Sawdust
You can throw accusations of treason around all day, it makes no difference. Are those who sent troops to Iraq without adequate armour guilty of treason? They are more directly linked to soldier's deaths in the current campaign than John Kerry could ever be. Is Halliburton, guilty of overcharging (war profiteering to give it another name), also guilty of treason? What about Rummy? Sending young men to war in an army that he explicitly admitted was not fully prepared? We could go on all day, it does no good...

The Real Enemy Within
Let me put it very simply for you. This administration failed in Iraq. The military did its job well but the administration failed to provide the necessary talent and money to secure Iraq and its people. 61% of Iraqis say it is OK to kill our troops. Need we say more?

All great leaders exhibit flexibility in the face of failure. This administration keeps trying the same tactics and strategies over and over again. It is the failed leadership of this administration that is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. We need smart leaders who will attack terrorists and keep attacking them where they live rather than grinding down our army and marines in the Bush wasteland that was Iraq.

Treason
Number 1 on the list has to be John Kerry, simply because he has the distinction of having been a traitor in two wars. He lied about me and my fellow soldiers (under oath, before Congress) in the infamous Wintersoldier hearings. Not only lied, but brought along others to lie, some of whom , it was later revealed, had never been to Vietnam. Then he accused the soldiers in Iraq of similar crimes, and insulted their intelligence. And this man wanted to be Commander in Chief.

Then there's Dick Durbin, who compared our troops to Nazi storm troopers, the murderous legions of Pol Pot, and the guards of the Soviet Gulags.

Jack Murtha--Immediately upon hearing of the battle of Haditha accused our men of "murder in cold blood". There is absolutely zero chance that he knew what happened there, but that didn't stop him from making the charge.

I could go on, but I have to get to work, I have a welfare mother out there somewhere to support.

We've heard for months how the Democrats "support the troops". As a former "troop", I believe that supporting the troops means to give them whatever they need to win the war, whether it be guns re-enforcements, or moral support. The military leaders have said that they need re-enforcements, and the Dems don't want to provide them. The very same Dems, by the way, who have been criticizing the President since the beginning of the war for not having enough troops on the ground! A pox on them all.

Libs do think there's a fight on!!!
I don't know any liberal, libertarian or anything else come to think of it who doesn't think there is a fight on. It's just that most liberals that I know don't think the way it is being fought is the way it can be won. It can't be won through military means... you don't persuade people to change the way they think by killing their children, their famlies and their loved ones. It just doesn't work. It won't work. Cultural "wars" that have created genuine long term change can only be won through peaceful means. Look at Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, Martin Luther King. "Take your guns and throw them into the sea." Upping the military ante will create only one thing - more opposition. And unless the US is prepared to kill every single person capable of resorting to terror, an impossiblity, alternatives to the military must be considered.

Why autonomous regions?
Because a Shiite-dominated national army will never fly in the Sunni and Kurdish regions of Iraq.

Only regionalized security forces will ever be trusted to maintain stability.

In deference to this logic, part of the surge strategy is sending Kurdish brigades to Baghdad to secure Sadr City and other Shiite enclaves, because the Shiite army can't be trusted to fight their brethren.
Problem now is that Kurds are deserting the army and staying in Kurdistan, rather than inserting themselves in what they perceive as Arab problems.

Critical Bill
Absolutely right.

Given the track record of Bush, Jr. and company, don't you think it's time for some second guessing from somebody?

Will they ever see ALL of the WOT?
Liberals are trying to cause America to be politically defeated and loose another war, other than that Iraq has nothing in common with Vietnam.
America has never fought a war like this before.
It is a World Wide war for the survival of Western Culture.
Iraq is our main source of pain right now.
I wish I knew words strong enough to shock our sleeping members into awareness of just how large this war is and how dangerous it is to America and our children's future.
WHATEVER HAPPENS IN IRAQ WILL NOT END THIS WAR!
We have been drawn into a World war that has already lasted for CENTURIES and is likely to continue long after those who read this have proven the final truth of their religious belief!
Newt thinks the same way.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPrint.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200701/CUL20070111d.html

Wish we could make Libs understand this is their fight TOO!

PRAISE FOR BIDEN PLAN
http://www.controlcongress.com

Bill O'Reilly, on The O'Reilly Factor (9/29/06) - "See, I favor Biden's -- Senator Biden's solution of the three regional areas. Because you've already got one, the Kurds in the north that's autonomous. If you could carve the two out, divide up the oil revenue, have a central government protected by the Americans to make sure that the Iranians don't come in, I think that might work." Read the article

Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN), PBS Newshour with Jim Lehrer, (9/19/2006) "My own view is that... we have to continually advise our friends in Iraq to get on with this question of the division of the oil money or the dedication of the various groups, as well as how a federation can work. It may not be an absolute division of the country into three parts, but at least some ways in which the Kurds, who already have a great deal of autonomy, are joined by a lot of Shiites that want the same thing and Sunnis that are worried that they're going to be left out of the picture. And that takes heavy lifting. Politically, a lot of objections even to bringing it up before their congress, but we have to keep insisting that they do. That has to be on the agenda."

Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS), The Hill (10/24/06), "I think this idea of maybe the three autonomous regions within one country may be the one that we start to move more and more towards."

Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX), Houston Chronicle (10/17/06), "Allowing the Kurds, Sunni and Shia to govern their own territories while sharing in Iraq's oil revenues through a national revenue stream could help quell the bloodletting."

Senator John Warner (R-VA), On the Senate Floor (5/1/06) - "Senator Biden's commentary, in my judgment, was constructive, and was maybe a little too late to back up from where we are at this moment. But it was nevertheless a positive contribution to the debate and constructive...."

Henry Kissinger, Delaware News Journal (5-2-06) -- Kissinger said the plan should "get careful consideration." Read the article

Bush agrees with Biden
>Share Oil revenues. Since when is the oil ours to parcel out as we please? <

The US has been strongly urging the Iraqi government to pass a law that sets up clear rules for sharing the oil wealth among Iraq's ethnic and sectarian groups in order to pacify the unstable conditions in the country.

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=13913

I disagree with both Biden and the administration on this point, because it is a socialist idea that runs counter to free market system.
Kurds are opposed to the national revenue sharing plan, as they have already signed contracts with foreign entities that would be made null and void.
Appeasement is not solely the realm of Democrats in Iraq.



Question for Biden et al
There should be one standard question that honest journalists should ask Biden and his ilk about their proposed policies: "Do you think Al Qaeda agrees with you?"

I'd love to see him answer!

is this to come to pass (5 points)

Just how is Biden's Plan going to work?
And lo Joe spoke it and it came to pass?

1. Establish one Iraq..... Who will run the central governmaent? Looks like a plan for 3 way civil war for real.
2. Share Oil revenues. Since when is the oil ours to parcel out as we please?
Gain agreement ... proportional to their size..kinda like from their abilty to their need...
3. Increase reconstruction assistance..
More conditions on a central government that you just gave control of oil production, revenues, but with limited power.
4. Engage with neighbors...
You want the UN to maintain border integrity like they do with Darfur or Lebanon. And Iran will promise to not be agressive, the lion shall lie down with the lamb, and syria will leave Iraq alone like they have Lebanon.
5. Drawdown troops. 2007=1975
a small residual force would be a constant target of opportunity for any group of terrorists.

Getting off middle east oil...
Approve nuclear power, offer incentives to "wind farms"( even offshore from the Kennedy compund), and drill in ANWAR. Can't do it? You're not serious about weaning us from oil.

The truth is not ad hominem
If anyone can point out something that dastardly Dick has got right about Iraq then I'm all ears. Although I suppose at some point he might have said "Halliburton will make a mint out of this" so I could be wrong. Other than that he is in the same boat as all of the neo-con "think tanks" that spouted their predictions on this - wrong, wrong wrong. That is not an ad hominem attack - it's the truth.

On Joe Biden
I have to take exception to a characterization of Joe Biden that paints him as seditious or as someone who has simply grandstanded and criticized without offering alternatives.

He is certainly a politician, and I am uncomfortable with the ongoing critiques without alternatives, vitriol, and grandstanding that is and has been going on. There is merit to the idea that if the Dems are so unalterably opposed to the war, they should put their money where their mouths are and go on the record to defund it. After all, they have had several years to make sure their positions are properly nuanced.

However, with all this, Senator Biden-unlike his colleagues-has put forth a plan, the merits of which can surely be debated, but there is food for thought there. He also spent a few hours this past Saturday night addressing a National Guard conference in person on Iraq-not exactly preaching to the choir. He also has a son who has served in the military and was just elected Attorney General of Delaware.

BTW, I've never voted for him, nor am I a supporter, but I have to take issue with calling him treasonous or unserious.

Judging by the fools we see
on the tube each Sunday or anytime a camera is close by, being a US Senator is the easiest, cushiest job in the world..They do nothing, "work" 3 days a week and blow smoke up each others butts about how important they are.

There are a few serious people in the congress, but you can count them on one hand....except for Lieberman they are all Republicans.

I'm with the shame them idea, I have always wanted to see the President point out pork barrel projects and name the culprits, then tear up the budget and tell them to get it right or resign.

Take the comments made by certain individuals and make the case as to why the idea is stupid.
This comity is BS, the dems backstab GW at every turn and are placing the troops in jeopardy, he needs to point out that they are giving aid and comfort to the enemy and let them howl, better they get embarrassed[if that's possible] than some trooper dies.

I have never heard such ridiculous comments in my life as come from the mouths of people who have Ivy league educations and millions of dollars...I guess you cannot teach common sense and these folks have none and they couldn't care less about this country as long as they can take a jab at Bush.

The True Enemy
This article highlights a piece of the same problem we keep coming back to- the liberal reliance on the media to completely slant the point of view from which Americans see the war in Iraq ( and everything else for that matter!)
Looking historically it is inconceivable that any country would try to win a war while one major political party, and the vast majority of news coverage do everything they can to sabotage these efforts. There is no accountability for Democrats or the media.
The underlying goal of the Democrats and the media is for the left to take power without regard for the welfare of this country.

FACT SHEET: Biden-Gelb Plan for Iraq
http://www.controlcongress.com


Senator Joe Biden has a long list of bipartisan support for his plan. I do think this is the most logical plan I have seen to contain Iraq. We also most add a Marshal Plan to get off Middle East oil in less than 5 years.


A Five Point Plan for Iraq

1. Establish One Iraq, with Three Regions

• Establish three largely autonomous regions with a strong but limited central government in Baghdad
• Put the central government in charge of border defense, foreign policy, oil production and revenues
• Form regional governments — Kurd, Sunni and Shiite — responsible for administering their own regions

2. Share Oil Revenues

• Gain agreement for the federal solution from the Sunni Arabs by giving them 20 percent of all present and future oil revenues – an amount roughly proportional to their size – to make their region economically viable
• Empower the central government to set national oil policy and distribute the revenues, which would attract needed foreign investment and reinforce each community’s interest in keeping Iraq intact

3. Increase Reconstruction Assistance and Create a Jobs Program

• Provide more reconstruction assistance, but clearly condition it on the protection of minority and women’s rights and the establishment of a jobs program to give Iraqi youth an alternative to the militia and criminal gangs
• Insist that other countries make good on old commitments and provide new ones – especially the oil-rich Arab Gulf countries

4. Engage the Neighbors, Maintain Iraq’s Territorial Integrity

• With the U.N., convene a regional security conference where Iraq’s neighbors, including Iran, pledge to respect Iraq’s borders and work cooperatively to implement this plan
• Engage Iraq’s neighbors directly to overcome their suspicions and focus their efforts on stabilizing Iraq, not undermining it
• Create a standing Contact Group, to include the major powers, that would engage Iraq’s neighbors and enforce their commitments

5. Drawdown US Troops

• Direct U.S. military commanders to develop a plan to withdraw and re-deploy almost all U.S. forces from Iraq by the end of 2007
• Maintain in or near Iraq a small residual force – perhaps 20,000 troops – to strike any concentration of terrorists, help keep Iraq’s neighbors honest and train its security forces


A matter of history
From a biography of General Giap ( NVA):

"According to Giap, these distorted reports were inspirational to the NVA. They changed their plans from a negotiated surrender and decided instead, they only needed to persevere for one more hour, day, week, month, eventually the protesters in American would help them to achieve a victory they knew they could not win on the battlefield."

I do see the comparison with VietNam.
Are we going to see Cindy Sheehan chanting " Osama Osama Osama, he's gonna bomba"?

How would you know?
>The US government has become a mess that is incapable of defending our homeland<

Unless you are able to expound on this statement, it must be discarded into the moonbat bin.

The Dems and war
This generation of Americans bear no relation to their parents and grandparents generation, the "Greatest Generation". If they are fortunate the might be remembered as the "ease and comfort generation", but they will probably be referred to by phrases much less flattering in the future.
There are a lot of people who feel that George W. should be paying for their prescriptions instead of fighting a war to protect freedom, Democracy, and Western Civilization. Imagine the lunacy of choosing a two hundred dollar face cream for a single solitary pimple over protecting the fate of the Constitution, The Declaration of Independence, or the Magna Carta. Yet those are today's Americans, and those are the Americans that the Democratic Party has come to pander to. It has been said many times that "Freedom is not free" but the Democrats have told Americans that the "Nanny State" will take precedence over any efforts to extend freedom. This the wrong side of history.
How many monuments have been erected to the unknowns who rioted in New York and Washington DC when Abraham Lincoln was President? How many monuments were erected to the contemporaries who called Abraham Lincoln a cretin, and orangutan, or a chimpanzee?
How do you suppose the New York Times will spin an article supporting a statue for the Democrat who made his career by declaring he did not want to spread freedom to any more peoples?

The problem is the Congress
Now that Senator Warner (R-VA), senior Republican on the Senate Armed Forces Committee, has joined Hagel, Levin, Biden, and the rest of the "cut & run" crowd, Iraq is no longer a partisan issue. The American people now face the spectacle of our Congress attacking the Commander-in-Chief while American troops are in harm's way on foreign soil.

The US government has become a mess that is incapable of defending our homeland, and none of the 2008 candidates for President have a prayer of improving the situation.

It is time for the American people to wake up and clean house in the Congress and the White House, demanding action instead of words in exchange for their votes. Those who believe campaign promises are stupid, and those vote for incumbents are fools.




I Can't Wait!
2spothipshot and TheHistorian... before this day is through, this thread will be full of liberals accusing you of "extremism" while defending the likes of Biden, Durbin & Kennedy as somehow representing the "mainstream" of America.

The Left indicts this administration with all kinds of accusations including "being out of touch" with what's REALLY happening in Iraq ("REALLY happening" defined as whatever disaster the Mainstream Media is headlining today). Comments made by this group, most recently on Fox News Sunday, demonstrate their total ignorance of the "unintended"(?) consequences of their rhetoric and their "plan", such as it is.

If this gang were really serious about anything good for the country in this war, they'd shut up for a while... support the administration (at least outwardly), assist our troops by NOT giving our enemies a reason to believe we are a nation divided, and offer viable alternatives without the criticism of partisan politics. Then, afterward, when our troops can reasonably be "re-deployed" and out of harms way, they can critique how we might have done things better and avoid pitfalls in the future.

There is absolutely nothing "patriotic" about exercising one's "right to debate" if the "unintended" consequence is to embolden the enemy during wartime.

It IS patriotic to point out that this gang, by their words and actions, are placing party and power above the morale of our troops.

Don't Ignore Kerry and Kennedy
Unfortunately, these were only the two big-mouths on TV at that instant. Didn't anyone hear the asinine question by Kennedy on whether we had tried withdrawal? He should have been told that we tried that in Vietnam and that there were over a million civilian casualties there, and that we still do not have an MIA accounting from that country. Kerry has said equally irresponsible mush. And there are a round dozen in the House that should also be put into the investigation.

So I add Kerry and Kennedy, who are also knowingly assisting our enemies and should be investigated for the crime of sedition.

Still,the fact remains Mr. Limbaugh
That these "unserious" people are encouraging the enemy.That is all they have to do,as they've done without cease for almost four years now,to achieve their goal: A complete and utter failure in Iraq.

It is more than a lack of seriousness,however, which plagues them I'm afraid. Rather, it is an open and unflinching desire to sabotage an American war effort.They are not fools.They know exactly what they are doing and virtually no one will call them on it,even though there is no precedent that I know of in our history, when LEADERS IN CONGRESS, were doing these types of destructive things to our country in time of war.Accepting of course for Viet Nam and we all know what that led to,or rather,"we" don't.

That is the problem.The American public at large does not realize what a horrible thing it was for us to desert our friends there and allow them to be murdered wholesale or enslaved by the fascists hordes.

I don't know if Churchill dealt with Chamberlain directly,or if circumstance led to his view winning the day, but I DO know that it would be much better for everyone, if America united behind "The good fight" now, instead of waiting for the inspiration that will (hopefully) come from the next 9/11.

To do that we must speak in plain language about what it is these people are doing. They must be shamed with the blunt force of the truth or at least have the nature of their destructiveness revealed in no uncertain terms.

The pro-wars' lexicon and parlance must include terms like appeasement,collaboration and when it comes to extreme cases like what the NY Times,it's sources,Cindy Sheehan,J.Kerry,Dink Turbin,Ted Kennedy and others have done and said,it must also include the words sedition and treason.

Not for the purposes of putting them on trial necessarily,although I don't see why not,but mostly for the sake of injecting a clear and undeniable deffinition of what it is these people are, so that the American people can have something other than the notion,the lie, that it is legitimate to damage an ongoing war effort with self serving,lacking in any viable alternative,never ending attacks on that effort and the ones charged with its prosecution.

I'll get it started,Senators Biden and Levin are knowingly assisting our enemies and should be investigated for the crime of sedition,ie: More American fighting men and women will die,are dying,due to the actions of these two allies of the enemy.

See,that wasn't hard was it? You try it now...
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