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Tuesday, January 16, 2007
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Left's Tiresome "Chicken-hawk" Mantra
by David Limbaugh
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Senator Barbara Boxer has mastered the art of rudeness much better than she has cultivated wisdom on weighty matters of state.

When questioning Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on the president's Iraq war policy, Boxer uttered a series of bizarre rhetorical questions. They were obviously intended to discredit Rice, not based on her support of the president's presumably dubious war strategy, but because she doesn't have children, which disqualifies her from participating in a decision that could affect people's children.

Referring to war, Boxer said, "Who pays the price? I'm not going to pay a personal price. My kids are too old and my grandchild is too young. You're not going to pay a particular price, as I understand it, with an immediate family. So who pays the price? The American military and their families."

Despite her professional and personal accomplishments, Rice is frequently a target for liberals, who apparently find Rice's Republican Party membership a particular betrayal, given her gender and race, which to liberals mean unquestioned allegiance to liberalism.

The liberal establishment demands that blacks and women and especially black women toe the liberal line, and when they deviate, they deserve the establishment's collective wrath. Indeed, such is the magnitude of their infidelity that they forfeit any expectation of civility from the left.

We saw this on graphic display when liberal cartoonists savaged Rice in racially pointed cartoons during her confirmation hearings without so much as a whimper of disapproval from self-styled racially sensitive liberals.

At the hearings -- as I chronicle in my book -- Senator Boxer exhibited a viciously insulting tone toward Rice, telling her, "I personally believe -- this is my personal view -- that your loyalty to the mission you were given, to sell the war, overwhelmed your respect for the truth." Democrats didn't condemn Boxer -- even though she compounded the egregiousness of her baseless accusation by boastfully showcasing it in an exploitive fundraising e-mail she sent for the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee.

Boxer's credentials for rudeness thus being established, how should we evaluate the reasonableness of her implied argument that Rice's opinion is worthless because she has no children who could be affected by it?

This line of reasoning, of course, is nothing new for liberals. I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard one of them say that those who didn't serve have no moral right to opine on war issues. This "chicken-hawk" argument is so childishly misguided you would think liberals, who consider themselves superior logicians and cerebral sophisticates, would be too embarrassed to make it.

The question is not who is qualified to opine, but whether an opinion has merit, irrespective of the characteristics of its proponents or opponents. Under liberal logic, the rich-from-birth Ted Kennedy is disqualified from empathizing with and advocating for the poor. And, the Framers should have limited the franchise in presidential elections to military personnel and their parents, and maybe their grandparents, but not aunts, uncles, brother, sisters or cousins.

Interestingly, Boxer pretended she had no standing to opine either, since her children are too old and her grandchildren too young to serve. But that didn't stop her from making clear her view that the war is not worth American lives, because her opinion is sanctified by its liberalism. Since she's against the war, the ending of which would supposedly end the risk to American lives, her opinion is legitimate.

What this really boils down to is the antiwar left's intolerance for dissenting opinions and their propensity to make decisions on an emotional, rather than logical basis. If you don't agree with them, you either aren't listening -- another charge Boxer leveled at Rice -- or you don't have the right to opine. But Boxer's logic is self-defeating: If your personal circumstances disqualify you from opining, they do so regardless of the nature of your opinion.

Further, Boxer's underlying assumption is that the Iraq war is not worth the risk of American lives. While that is something about which reasonable people can disagree, we can't ever get to that point in the discussion if one side intimidates the other into silence.

It is conceivable that the implementation of Boxer's antiwar opinion could put more American lives -- military and civilian -- at risk in the long run, by weakening the United States emboldening terrorists and contributing to the conversion of Iraq into a launching pad for global terrorism. Or do I have enough of a stake in America to entitle me to such an audacious opinion?

Many on the antiwar left are still oblivious to the global nature of the war and that Iraq's destiny is central to it. They seem to believe we can flip a switch and end this war -- by a solitary executive order.

But disregard my opinion on that, too, since I've never been the commander in chief.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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"Chicken Hawk"- I always tell them
that we Chicken Hawks eat Chickens for lunch!

Comments
"I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard one of them say that those who didn't serve have no moral right to opine on war issues."

So do I. You'd have... 20 or 30 cents! Typical of the right-wing pundits to twist liberal arguments to demonize Democrats.

Boxer pointed out that Rice would not have to pay a personal price in this war. BTW, she said the exact same thing about herself! So, she called herself a chicken hawk? Is that some new Democratic strategy to throw us off? Those sneaky devils!

Well, look
Boxer generally says things I would classify as "idiotic". I don't know how she got to be a senator. Oh wait. That's right. This is America 2006.

On the other hand, I really don't care if she was rude, per se. I'm tired of public people tip toeing around the truth, or at least what they feel is the truth. If Boxer believes what she believes, she should say so. If she thinks that Rice is a liar, then let her say so. **The marketplace of ideas, as it were, will decide what to do with her.** (Likewise, Rice should shoot right back if she genuinely wants to.) I'm sick of so many nagging issues going unresolved in this country because people don't want to ruffle feathers or lay their cards on the table. Life's too short. If Boxer spoke her mind more often, I don't know if she would be reelected.

On the issue of chickenhawks, I think all sides are guilty of that sort of smearing. So I really don't think of that as particularly a "liberal" failing. If either "side" doesn't think that they try to silence their opposition, well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.


heh...who's the idiot?
obviously, it's **2007** now...gotta flip the calendar in my mind...

Ah, Kimberly...
...Amazing. Two comments, both showing you to be as much a flaming non-normie as Senator Boxer. If you have no idea what a non-normie is, go to http://www.non-normie.com and find out. Also check out the Non-Normie of the day for January 15th, none other than Senator Boxer herself.

It is typical, by the way, for flaming non-normies to lead with their chins. I doubt you'll read this since you're well known for guano-drops. But if you do, fine. I'm sure your brain scan would show major activity in the limbic system and thalamus, the seats of emotion, and no activity worth mentioning in your cerebrum, the seat of logic. In that, you're just like your heroine, Senator Boxer.

You may feel like you've scored a telling point, but the normies posting here are all laughing at you.

Have a great day!

Boxer,
the carpetbagging liberal/socialist from NYC, made her name yapping against the first gulf war. She dirty tricked her way into the senate in 1992 by pulling one of those last minute personal revelations about her opponent (visited a strip club) for which the democrat party is famous.

Since then, she's bad-mouthed the military and promoted liberal/socialist issues on every occasion possible. She's advocated on behalf of inside bureaucratic leakers and squealers that undermine national security.

Her 'environmental record is little more than a front for the purposeful retarding of any kind of economic development in California. But that didn't stop her from making a fortune in energy stocks, particularly with oil companies, specializing in dealing with the maze of regulations in supplying the CA consumer.

She's a leading member of the female socialist cabal that seeks to turn CA into a people's republic. She's one to talk about who can opine on what subjects. Her conflicts of interest as well as her hypocrisy are breathtaking. Of course, being one of their darlings, the liberal media will never find anything to criticize about her.

In her world, you either have it or have no right to it. Despite the Mexican invasion that's been going on, the population level has been steady state, since most of the productive elements are cashing in their chips and leaving. That suits her and her fellow plantation plutocrats just fine - they need plenty of servants and dependent subjects.

This is the group 'Ahnold' joined. It won't be long before the California economic landscape is just as barren as her kind made New York State's.

chicken hawks
I will not call them chicken hawks. They are in fact yellow bellied cowards. Individuals without courage and no sense of duty, two character qualities the repubs are supposed to hold in high esteem.

Phoenix Lady - checked the website
and agree what it says about "Non-Normies."

However, I think some of them go beyond "Non-Normie" to become "Anti-Normies." In other words, they actively try to disrupt the normal society and to rid the world of normal people.

Many of these losers work on getting ahold of your child's brain at a younger and younger age, so that they can brainwash them into being "non-Normies" too.

Be afraid.

Be very afraid.

Bleeding Heart Liberal - Bwock! Bwock!
Bleeding Heart Liberal writes: Tuesday, January, 16, 2007 1:43 AM
chicken hawks
I will not call them chicken hawks. They are in fact yellow bellied cowards. Individuals without courage and no sense of duty, two character qualities the repubs are supposed to hold in high esteem.
*************************************

I am, however, a Chicken Hawk, patroling the land, searching for unpatriotic Leftie Loser Chickens, so that I can eat them for lunch.

Better run!

Minorities owe everything to Dems.
Limbaugh's comments regarding the duty of minorities and women to adhere to Democratic principles were intended to be derisive, but in reality they are true, and such allegance should be painted in a positive manner.

There is no refuting the fact that minorities and women would have no success in life if it were not for the efforts of the Democratic Party. Left to their own skills, minorites would be totally helpless. This is especially true for black females, so it is indeed sad when one such group member forgets who brought her to the dance and tries to go it alone. Since Democrats paved the way for her success, Condi Rice owes allegance to the Democratic Party, not to Republicans, the party of the racist segments of society.

It is widely known that Republicans consider minorities inferior, and just to emphasize their point, they place many minorities in positions of great authority and responsibility in hopes that they will falter. If such prominent minorities fail, then the Republicans can crow about the lack of skills inherent in minorities. Democrats spare minorities this humiliation by greatly reducing their presence in positions of power and prestige.

Though still technically considered a minority class unto itself, women are allowed to rise within the Democratic Party, mainly because they are great vote getters. The presence of women is also encouraged by many senior Democrat members, and former President Clinton and Senator Kennedy are especially welcoming toward women that might someday have a position under them.

While the doors are kept open for women, Democrats do try to keep the lid on the numbers of darker pigmented peoples in high offices. Individuals that have an excess of melanin still have to be sheltered from their own lack of abilities lest they do something silly and publicly humiliate their respective race. In order to prevent such a calamity, Democrats strive to keep such minorities away from the seats of power. Thus, the lack of any minorities in the top cabinet slots of every Democratic presidential candidate has been attributed to this very thought pattern. Senator Byrd has adhered to this principle for years, and ensured no minorites were placed into a position of authority along side of him in the KKK. Byrd knew that many minorites couldn't be relied upon to properly burn a cross of get the right size of rope for the weekend lynching, and he didn't want them to be embarrassed by such a faux pas. As such, like his contemporary Democrat partners, Byrd knew minorities would only be embarrassed if they failed in their duties, so he helped to see to it that they were not given any responsibility in society until the paler party members deemed it was permissible.

Minorities owe everything to the Democrats, the party that always looks out for their best interest. And to show appreciation for this guidance, no minority should attempt to advance in a manner that isn't 100% in step with the Democratic agenda. Minorites are free and equal citizens, but only as long as they freely toe the Democrat Party line, and they are only as equal as Democrats allow them to be.


Chickenhawks: Exclusively men?
Chickenhawk as I understand it originally was a term to describe conservative, lets-go-gettem!-launch-all-missiles-now!, militaristic men in Congress who for various reasons didnt serve when they otherwise would have had the chance.

Since the adult children of politicians often can and do serve, I'm not going to slam a pol for the choices his healthy adult kids chose not to make. Sen Jim Webb doesnt carry any more gravitas with a son in the USMC deployed to Iraq than does another pol whose kid is doing an MBA at Yale.
Newt Gingrich, Sen Phil Gramm, Sen George Allen and a wide slath of GOP guys in their age bracket managed to escape a tour in the military. Its hard for me not to have contempt for them, given the number of naive kids from the heartland who rushed off willingly to serve their country in the ill-starred Viet Nam conflict.
I was glad none of them spoke out about Howard Dean's blatant avoidance of war (a "bad back" kept him out of the military but didnt impair his skiing in Aspen) And let's not forget Clintonista Strobe Talbott who had an orthopedic condition which kept him out of Nam but allowed him to be a good tennis player.

Chicken Hawk - In - Chief
As an outsider during the build up to the Iraq Debacle I could see how anyone who questioned the wisdom of rushing to war on the flimsiest of "fixed" evidence, was criticised us an-American or on the side of the terrorist. It was even more disgusting to see this when the majority of the people casting aspersions on peoples patriotism were people who had managed to avoid military service themselves.
Don't get me wrong, the sight of your presidents flight onto the aircraft carrier all decked out like a proper pilot before proclaiming "Mission Accomplished" provided a bigger belly laugh around the world than all episodes of the Simpsons and Seinfeld combined and so I certainly would not have wished him to do anything differently.
I'm glad people are starting to appreciate Loyal Democrats satire at last!!!

Boxer and the cane
I had thought that this abominable ‘chicken hawk” meme was thoroughly discredited and it use was over. In fact, I was all set to chide our more liberal friends who post on TH with its continued use after their Democratic party masters had quit using it. But noooo, along comes Ms Boxer with a new wrinkle.

Perhaps Condi should remind Ms Boxer of senatorial precedence when an insulting and inflammatory speech is made by a non-gentleman concerning an educated gentleman (woman in this case) from the South. The precedence involves the use of a gold headed cane.

Bleeding Heart Liberal is...
... a caricature of liberalism. Name calling instead of providing any substance to the argument. Thus proving that, in this person's case, no activity in his/her cerebrum!

(Thanks, Phoenix Lady!)

vespanat opines:
"It was even more disgusting to see this when the majority of the people casting aspersions on peoples patriotism were people who had managed to avoid military service themselves..."

Thanks for proving this columnist's point. I'm not aware that only those with military service credentials are qualified to question people's patriotism as evidenced by their behavior. Guess I missed that in our Constitution.

Oh... as to the rest of your comments -- I'm glad you get such amusement out of the behavior of our president. I'm also glad you apparently are not eligible to vote in the U.S.

Have a great day!

Grow Up, Kimberly, Or Go To Kos
Kimberly's two posts show her to be an utterly idiotic left wing troll. It is she who should grow up, or go to Kos. There was no excuse for Senator Boxer's comments. The left wing simply wants to disqualify people from voicing their views when the left disagrees with them.

But Kimberly, you and Senator Boxer can't disqualify me on this one. My older son is a Lieutenant serving in Iraq, and I support the President's new Iraq plan.

I'm Having A Great Day Thus Far, Thanks
Sorry to disappoint you but I am entitled to vote in the US, in fact I did when I lived there in the 90's. I'm greatly looking forward to the next election (I love American politics) far more interesting than UK politics has sadly become.
I'm not too impressed with potential candidates thus far though. McCain, although he seem s adecent man, certainly decent have the entertainment value of the present imcumbent and none of the Dem candidiates appear to impressive althought to be fair I have't seen much of Obama in action.
I just hope we across the pond will be treated to more Machiavellian machinations al Karl Rove, the man is a genius, not someone I would care to share airspace with but a genius!!!

Loyal Democrat.
I am in awe.

I bow before your superior use of the skewer.

As for Senator Boxer, Grubby referred to her as the "carpetbagger from NYC". Since she is in fact a Senator from California, does this mean she pulled a Hillary? If she did, all I can say is "how typical".

As for her treatment of Secretary of State Rice, obviously she assumed that she was lecturing one of her own staffers, being unfamiliar with the difference between a Cabinet official and a stenographer.

One can only imagine the reaction from the press if, say, Richard Lugar had been even one-half as rude to Madeleine Albright a decade or so ago. Of course, I can recall when it was SOP for Democrats to say equally obnoxious things to Jeane Kirkpatrick when she was UN Ambassador, and get kudos from the press for their "audacity".

You just have to love double standards.

cheers

eon

vespanant
While there have only been a few WMDs found (the MSM says none, but there was a stockpile of chemical artillery rounds found loaded with mustard gas and sarin), the real reason to take out Saddam's government can be traced to early 1991. That's when his government signed a ceasefire agreement that laid out certain conditions that his government would abide by. These conditions were later ratified by the UN. As soon as Hillary became President, Saddam's government started breaking all of those conditions. At that point, the US was OBLIGED under international law and the terms of the ceasefire agreement to resume a state of war and take out Saddam and his government.

As for the Chicken Hawk argument, I will gladly call out all of the Dim-ocrats and RINOs who have opposed America in the war against Islam. We need to go all out and finish this fight, since Islam will only stop when all non-muslims are dead. (they've been at this for over 1300 years, and it is one of the top commandments of their false-prophet, Mohammed) Try to call me a Chicken Hawk. I prefer just HAWK. Actually, right now I'm called an EMERALD KNIGHT, and so are the other members of my squadron.

Boxer stepped in it again!
I am so shocked that after reading what Mr. Limbaugh wrote that so many liberals could maintain their loud mouth, speak without thinking mentality. Oh, I forgot. He is Rush' brother. That is the only reason to bad mouth his articles. Although I don't personally like Rush, I do like his brother and he makes a lot of solid sense.

I am from California. In fact, I used to be on a union political action committee in the bay area. I have met that logic impaired air head, Boxer on more than one occasion. And each time I met that shrill nut, the more and more my friends and I felt that we were supporting the wrong people. Ultimately, she is one of the reasons that I got out of the Demon-cratic party. My parents were solid Dems way back when and left the party after the failed Johnson administration. They used to plead with me to take a good hard look at the nutty policies and damaging direction that the liberals have taken this country and begged me to leave. I guess I had to find out for myself. Barbara Boxer is amazing. How in the heck did such a lump ever get into office? She isn't even qualified to hold the public office of dog catcher. But I forgot, she runs for office in California. There are enough thoughtless libs in Oakland, Bezerkeley, SF and all of the nuts in the "entertainment" industry to sweep that milk dud into office. To have had personal contact with her on a number of occasions was enough to scare me away permanently. I have since really put some thought behind my political decisions and there is no other choice but the Republican party.

So for all you knuckle heads out there that even think that your defense of Boxer and her pointless comments to the honorable Secretary of State Rice were somehow worthy and sound, I think you should look deep within your wounded hearts and think again. And enough with the undefensible idea that Bush lied and that this war is illegal. That won't fly, and the Dems in office know it. That is why they won't move to even offer reasons for impeachment. There are no grounds.


spoken like true chickenhawks
Each and everyone of you supporters of this war have been given more than ample opportunity to prove your machismo by putting your tailfeathers on the line as you cheered over 3,000 patriots to their deaths. Meanwhile, you sit here spinning every justification while you hide behind the line like cowardly REMF's or demonize those who call you out for the eunuchs you truly are. Well, we've been under fire so I think we endless corn breathed clucking.

Typical of many old vets I was motivated to serve after 9/11 but was rejected for my age. The recruiters expected that they would be inundated by young, healthy, patriotic neo-cons to put down their lattes and pick up an M-16. Yet, since you bedwetting pseudo-patriots were too cowardly to back your jingoism with your volunteerism, it appears that they've had no choice but to accept middle aged vets or recall sexagenarians out of retirement to fill quotas. You should be proud, Jody, grandpa's been called up so you can hide in the closet where you seem most at home.

Like both Limbaughs, you sit here and cheer a war you refuse to join and condemn Barbara Boxer for speaking the truth, not only about Secretary Rice, but about herself and her family situation. So, here's the deal my fine feathered friends. Put up or shut up.

Before sending one more kid to die, before issuing one more stop loss, before forcing marine and army families to suffer through a second, third and in some cases forth tour of combat duty, go sign the dotted line or just admit your cowardliness and callousness and your affinity for chiffon. If you aren't committed enough to risk your life, then simply admit that this war isn't worth fighting.

Confess that you're too afraid to die or be among the tens of thousands who have been disfigured for life and will be forgotten by you shaking, peeing pullets when VA funds are cut once again because you don't want to part with one precious tax dollar to take care of these men and women who suffer for your fear and paranoia.

You're entitled to your opinions, of course. Brave men and women have been fighting and dying for the last 230 years so you can do so. But those of us who served don't speak Rhode Island Red.

Media manipulation in action!
The columnist says" What this really boils down to is the antiwar left's intolerance for dissenting opinions and their propensity to make decisions on an emotional, rather than logical basis."

This is pure propanganda, allow me to unmask it. The antiwar left has been bleating a faint, faraway kazoo since the beginning of the war, not only unable to prevent it, but call for any investigation into the lies and acts of treason that were held up as justification for it and it's resultant crimes by contractor - not only in Congress, but in the press. Without subpoena power, the Dems sat as the government handed billions to crooks. The anti-war movement began to peacefully share and spread information, intending to vote out the corrupt politicians that haven't already been indicted.

The anti-war effort has been battling uphill for almost four years, not only tolerating the daily reports of piled up corpses, but the obscene mutual suckling of private contractors fattening themselves on purely deficit spending that will have all our grandchildren shaking their heads for decades.

The anti-war effort has from the start insisted on and demanded hard evidence, as has the world community. Was it logic or emotion when Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Powell reported confirmation of WMD all over the press? Was that an act of logic to do based on the fact that there were no WMD and all our best intel sources knew it, reporting such in vivid detail after Bush tried to blame his lies on them.

Perhaps the most disgusting display of immoral media manipulation has been Bush's continued use of 911 to con Americans into accepting the invasion of Iraq. Talk about acting on emotion, this is a passion play straight out of the Crusades. The antiwar movement has had it right since the massive worldwide demonstrations in the street even before Bush's invasion and it's all Limbaugh can do to counteract the stinging he feels inside since evidence of Curveball, Chalabi, Judith Miller, and Col. Wilkerson's accounts of a "big hoax" oozed out, confirming for certain that Powell, Cheney and Rumsfeld lied to America live on the TV.

The Iraq war is not worth the risk of American lives, nor was Vietnam. The country had enough, demanding an exit and we now know that LBJ also wanted a way out but continued the war because he didn't want to seem like a flip-flopper, after all it was his fudging of evidence that got us into that quagmire.

As if Vietnam (and Watergate) never happened, our soldiers today are again being herded into a hopeless hornet's nest to support the war profiteering of the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned your unsuspecting grandmother of.

At this late juncture, with Bush's Iraq strategies flailing and floundering for years on end, it's ridiculous to hold up the tired canard that anti-war speech is emboldening the "terrorists". The insurgents are motivated by U.S. occupation, not our political debates back home - just ask the ISG and a solid consensus of top generals if you have trouble understanding that the U.S. military presence is causing insurgents to have success in recruiting, outweighing whatever good we have done there. All our top military experts agree we have stretched our military so thin we face great risk now should we actually be attacked or provoked.

The antiwar folks are not oblivious to the global nature of the war, we understand it is not a war of soldiers and tanks, it is a war of box cutters, secret plans and patience. Iraq's role is so far from being central to this, we might as well have invaded Borneo. Even in Iraq, a preponderance of casualties result from our vehicles being blown apart as they ride up and down the streets. This is not a twentieth century war, this is a twenty first century war and we need something other then a mammoth, conspicuous military footprint. Abu Ghraib didn't help, though many still don't realize the scandal was the brainchild of Rumsfeld's Under Secretary Stephen Cambone.

The Iraqis have divided loyalties, the police are feeding intel to insurgents, and our lack of translators has us paying locals to play us for dunces.

Immediately after 911, all the weeklies were postulating the reason for the attack was to lure a ham handed response from the U.S. who would send troops to the Mid East and start the great polarizing "recruitment drive" for al Qaeda, their wildest, wettest dreams come true. Bush not only fell for it, he used the opportunity to enter Iraq, which he had been drooling to do from his first 100 hours, and turned a completely blind eye to Osama bin Laden who I've been reading has been enjoying free roaming in Waziristan since past summer.

Since there is already a bloodbath in Iraq, we may as well withdraw troops to watch the carnage unfold. But now we have Bush, again recklessly positioning us to attack Iran. I would ask Mr. Limbaugh to logically, not emotionally describe to me the specific evidence that justifies any potential invasion of Iran (not including Bush's recent provocation in Kurdistan). You know and I know he's beating the brush right now looking for any evidence to pin on Iran, the same as he's done before when he used pre-debunked intel to make a case for the first ever preemptive U.S. invasion of a soverign state without UN Security Council approval, on the way "making mistakes" on a massive scale in detaining innocent people for years, violating international bans on torture, breaking FISA and domestic propanganda laws, snoozing through Katrina and plotting to paint planes with UN colors to be shot down.

If Bush is a proven liar, who is emotional, those that still follow him, or those that wish to restore honesty to U.S. policy? If I was a a Bush follower though, I would accuse anti-war activists of being the emotional, irrational ones - hell it would probably work on about 20% of the public.


The Crawfish
If other members of the US military share your views on Islam then it is hardly surprising the numerous atrocities by the US Army are taking place. I do however admire you honesty as you are not pretending that the current farce is anything to do with liberation, rather domination.
To deal with your other points, if we in the West invade countries who have transgressed UN resolutions (for what they are worth) why haven't we invaded rather than abeted Israel?
Also if Iraq was such a threat why did Dr Rice state before 911 that the policy of containment was working, which it obviously was? Does that footage make it onto the US "liberal" MSM along with Rummy shaking hands with Saddam?
I do not deny the threat posed by radical Islam, however Iraq has proved both a recruiting ground for terrorism and a distraction to the real fight as can be seen by the Taliban consolidating in Afghanistan.
Surely now even the most deluded Neo-Con must concede it has been an utter disaster as prediited by many who spoke out against it both on the left and right. I'm sure Pat Buchanan wouldn't like to be called a RINO. I have found his analysis of the situation on these pages to be very insightful than the delusional whitterings of Krauthammer et al.
Rather worryingly it appears Dubya has not heeded any advice and is planning to strike against Iran, presumably as his Neo Con chums have convinced him that the Iranian people will rise up and overthrow the Mad Mullahs rather like the Iraqis wewe going to throw flowers at the feet of their "liberators". It would be funny if it weren't so scary!!!!

Chicken Hawks?
If prior service is the requirement for comment or opinion on our Iraq policy, why don't the chicken hawks on the left have to shut up also? I would be greatly interrested in seeing the service records of the rich, female, California senators and representitives.

Pot, kettle, black...
Yet again we have a right wing pundit crying in his milk because a liberal politician called it like it is. Rice has no immediate family in the military - fact. Those that suffer most are those who do - fact. How on earth does this qualify as mastring "the art of rudeness"? If Limbaugh wants to find better examples he need look no further than his own brother, who has made a vast fortune out of far more inflammatory and factualy incorrect statements. Presumably Limbaugh gave Coulter his full support when she accused the "Jersey girls" of revelling in their husbands deaths, to name one example of "the art of rudeness" from the right. If the political parties were reversed, there is no doubt that Limbaugh and the overwhelming majority of TownHall posters would be in whole-hearted agreement...

Best example of a "chicken hawk'..
is an abortionist - killing innocent defenseless babies.

K-Marx has again proved that she/he/it is nothing more (or less) than a useful idiot of the communist/nazi movement in the USA.

Critical Bill, do you listen to radio?
You surprise me (not really) with your slap at David Limbaugh's brother. He isn't incorrect on his show, most of the time he plays sound bites of liberals and uses their own words to illustrate the hypocracy of their positions, and he never makes it personal. Tune in sometime and open you ears to what is actually broadcast and not what you think is broadcast (which seems to be typical of liberal commentary....not enough space to give other examples, but the recent Michael J. Fox and older Donovan McNabb dust-ups are PERFECT examples).

To everyone else, I apologize for making this post about R. Limbaugh and not D. Limbaugh, but I felt that "Critical Bill" needed to be challenged for his remarks. Especially for using David to slam Rush.

Boxer's BS
Lear-Jet liberals like Boxer mean nothing to those who truly care for this country. She has done little (for her country or her constituents) while in Congress and, in my way of thinking, only reinforces what most people in this country believe: Congress is a bloated, do-nothing rich boys (and girls) club full of lazy arrogant fools. The whole group should be replaced and term limits imposed on their replacements.

Intrepid
You think calling a 13-year old girl a "dog" live on air isn't being rude? Come off it mate - you're defending the indefensible there... ok 'nuff said about Rush. But the point remains the same - if Boxer were a Republican and Rice a Democrat, the argument Limbaugh makes here would be exactly the other way around.

WWJD???
Erm... what he/she said too!!!

Critical Bill
I've never lost a sibling yet but I can understand the pain and suffering of grief. I've never lost a child THANK GOD! but I can understand the pain and suffering of a parent.

Boxer was way off of the mark but then again, she's a liberal moonbat and gets a pass by other moonbats. Gee, go figure.

Funny how the Pelosi Tuna story sure fell off radar over the weekend.

HOWEVER! It's on my blog! Check it out.

vespanat
atrocities?

You mean like putting women's underwear on terrorist's heads?

Does that make you mad because you'd prefer a set of men's jockey shorts slapped on your gourd.

Boo-frigging-hoo, we're killing terrorists in a war. That's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

There is a big difference here. We TRY and CONVICT people who do that, the Islamofascists just keep doing it, with the help of fifth columnists such as yourself.

The Only Logical Conclusion
...of the Chickenhawk Argument

As I argue in my coming book, the "argument" is similar (to use a simile of less far-reaching and less serious consequences) to saying that the customer of a bakery cannot complain about a cake he or she bought unless he or she is willing to make (or capable of making) a cake him- or herself. Alternatively, it would mean that a car owner should not criticize a garage's repair job (however awful) unless (s)he is willing to crawl under the vehicle himself and is able to produce the same results.

To use a less personal and perhaps more appropriate simile, the argument amounts to telling newspaper readers and TV viewers (within the United States or elsewhere) that they should refrain from criticizing, say, the Ford motor company for the four-wheel drive that kept turning over or for the wheels that kept blowing UNLESS they give up their job, move to Detroit, and start working in the Ford factory…

More importantly: notice how the Chickenhawk position can be turned against the so-called peace camp.

If only someone who has served in Iraq can speak IN FAVOR of the war, then why is it that somebody who has not served in Iraq can speak out AGAINST the war?

Aren't double standards at work here? (Double standards which just happen to be in favor of those who are opposed to the war, i.e., those who made the standards in the first place.)

Wouldn't the only logical conclusion be that only soldiers who have served in Iraq can hold opinions (pro OR con) about the war in Iraq?

Wouldn't the only logical conclusion seem to be that we should therefore ask the common soldier his (or her) opinion? My point is, shouldn't we be asking ourselves (and shouldn't the "pacifists" be asking themselves) what the soldiers themselves are saying about the war?

Well, maybe the MSM would do that, if... they felt that (a majority of) the soldiers in Iraq were/are against the war... Well, it so happens that not only are most soldiers far from opposed to the war, most of the complaints among soldiers and Marines seem not to be about Bush and his administration, but lack of support from would-be liberals, the MSM, and other State-side Americans purporting to be their dearest supporters...

What's the only logical conclusion from all this? You may disagree, but I would say that it is not the people who are IN FAVOR of the war who should go spend (at least) a couple of months in Iraq, it is the people who are OPPOSED to the war...

PaxDave is a liar
I doubt anyone who is too old to serve would engage in such childish idiocy. Especially someone who was in the military.

We have an ALL VOLUNTEER force, its time to find a new attack method. FDR wasn't in the military, but gee he commanded the troops without a peep from Democrats for it.

Whats more, you don't HAVE THE RIGHT to tell anyone what they could or could not do. The true cowards use the internet to cover their bravado with such slander.

Funny, I've never heard it to my face.



Kimberly
You almost made it through a post w/o mentioning Bush.

So I guess the electro-shock therapy is working?

If not, what are you gonna do when 2009 rolls around?

Complain about Bush pulling weeds at his ranch?

Boxer's kids and grandkids

Sen. Boxer may be half right--maybe. Certainly her children won't serve in Iraq, unless they are immune to their mother's poisonous attitude. But Iraq is only one front in the global war on terror. Five-plus years ago, New York City and Washington D.C. were part of the battlefield. So there's no guarantee her children won't "pay the price."

Which brings us to her grandchild. A terrorist victory in Iraq would embolden their ambitions--and doubtlessly prolong our war against jihadism. How long could it last? Maybe a myopic Senator with a grandchild should temper her defeatism with a dose of long-term thinking.

Gunny G
Once again I am in awe of your level of intellectual discourse. I'm not too bothered about the underwear on peoples heads, I can appreciate a "frat party" joke with the best of them. Its the rape and murder of children that worries me. Particularly as it does little to endear the US to the rest of the world and goes a long way to vindicate the scumbag Islamofacists as you call them when trying to convince potential suicide bombers they should join their futile and murderous jihad.

GunnyG
You managed to write something without making it look like you're shouting - the Prozac you are surely on must be working every bit as well as Kimberley's electro-shock treatment! At this rate we'll all be one big happy Townhall family...!

Crawfish
Sorry, I wrote your email address down and then lost it before I could send. Mine is jcmalloy@ptd.net
vespanat- Once again, I will explain exactly what "Mission Accomplished" meant before the libs twisted it. I was there, in theater, boots dry, for the duration of the war, so I know a little something about it. I was assigned to Fleet Hospital 15 in support of the 1st MEF. We were to set up our 300 bed hospital 30 miles south of Baghdad and be the primary trauma hospital for the siege of Baghdad. We never even set up the hospital- our troops smashed the Iraqi army in no time at all. Ok, now that I have established my credentials, let me educate you. "Mission Accomplished" meant that the Iraqi army was defeated, that the country and its ports were controlled by the coalition forces and that we would enter a stage of peacekeeping. Major combat operations ended! Carrier battle groups came home, armored divisions came home, amphibious battle groups came home, medical assets came home, Special Forces assets came home, helicopter and fixed-wing squadrons came home, many servicemembers came home. Am I making this clear enough? The mission of subduing Iraq and taking Saddam out of power WAS ACCOMPLISHED! Now stop taking potshots at Bush, you have no idea how hard it is to trap a plane on a carrier.

Attention Liberal Sheep
Anyone who can outsmart a box of rocks knows that the war in Iraq has only peripheral relation to 9/11. After the UN coalition ejected the Iraqi military from Kuwait in 1991, operation Desert Storm was suspended by a cease fire agreement signed by both sides and violated on almost a daily basis by Iraq until March '03. The Baathist regime resisted compliance with the cease fire agreement and all of its provisions, including dismantling all WMD products and programs. It took a DECADE of defiance by Saddam before the UN(Useless Nuts) dragged kicking and screaming by Bush & Blair found the guts to do something about it.

Loyal Democrat - -
with another post that is pure gold...

PaxGaeaDave - fighting a war we "refuse
to join?"

Listen Bozo, if all of the conservatives went off to fight the war in Iraq, who would be left here to fight off the Soros-funded Leftie Losers who are attempting to take over our country?

You see, we are fighting a war on two fronts.

The Left has shown by their actions and their rhetoric that they are determined for the United States to lose this war.

It is a full time job to stop you Losers from spreading disinformation.

vespanat
Right and crap like that happens in a war. Those p.o.s. have been tried or will be tried and BTW, the cells at Leavenworth aren't quiteas nice as those at Gitmo (check my blog for an article on Gitmo).

I wonder if you were as upset as Saddam killing people by running them feet-first through a plastic shredder or his sons taking women off of the street for g*ngbang parties that they often did not return from.

"Pulling weeds at his ranch" you say....
In 2009 I'll only complain if the shrub isn't pulling time. As for the label 'chicken hawk', that's fine, although I prefer 'war pig'.


Critical Bill
Wait till you see my article on your buddy George "Dhimmitude Dude" Galloway.

I wonder how you Brits can stomach someone as stupid and ignorant as him. You rail about the evil Bu$Hitler yet you have your own problems to deal with.

Isn't there a Brit version of TH or is pulling an "English Bob" on the colonials more fun?

GunnyG- You know how it is with THOSE
GunnyG writes: Tuesday, January, 16, 2007 9:02 AM
Kimberly
You almost made it through a post w/o mentioning Bush.
***************************

GunnyG- You know how it is with THOSE kind of gals. Always have Bush on their minds.



Gunny G
Saddam was an evil scumbag for whom I certainly shed no tears even if the image of his death will provide succour for the jihad for years to come but thats another story. It's a shame he was carrying out all these atrocities you mention with the implicit approval of the West when he was "our a*sshole". It's the hypocrisy that rankles. I just wish the West particularly rhe US was as vociferous in it's comdemnation of its 'friendly dictators', to paraphrase the recently departed Ms Kirkpatrick, such as Pinochet.
As I stated earlier the US seemed quite happy to tolerate people being put into shredders etc during the period of "containment". Funny how these tales of torture only come to light when public support for a war is needed.

Gunny
I didn't know I am a friend of George Galoway. In fact I think he doesn't know who I am - which is a shame in his part because I'm a great bloke. But to be serious for a moment, George Galloway is a peripheral figure in British politics and always will be. What he lacks in vote-winning he certainly makes up for in self-publicity. Sort of a political Richard Branson. Which is not meant as a compliment. Kind of a shame because he is certainly a very bright bloke. Just can't detatch himself from wanting to be a celebrity first and a politician second. As to your last point; we've discussed this before and yo know that answer. It's much more fun.

anti-socialist- Good point!
anti-socialist writes: Tuesday, January, 16, 2007 8:11 AM
Best example of a "chicken hawk'..
is an abortionist - killing innocent defenseless babies.
******************************

I agree.

It is startling everytime when I hear some Loser who claims to represent the "little guy" advocate so actively for the demise of the littlist guys and gals.

Who among us is littler than babies in the womb?

It is so easy for them to dismiss them as "not fully human" because they are living in a place where they are not visable to the unassisted eye.

Of course, in this day and age, it is easy to use technology to ascertain the humanity of these diminutive people, but to acheive their final agenda of a "Brave New World," it is necessary for the Left to strip their intrinsic value from them.

When we look inside the womb with modern equipment, we can see that they are visually human, and at an early stage. Too bad the death-mongers had to give up their old claim that they start as fish and go through evolution in the womb, because that is not supported by science.

So if they are not human, what are they? Rabbits?

Why don't we test their DNA and find out!

Who cares about Boxer?
She couldn't even bring herself to admit that murdering BORN children is morally wrong. She is evidence that voters in California are among the dumbest in history (only beaten by the single-digit IQ morons here in the CommonTheft of Taxachusetts).

Critical Bill
Thanks for acknowledging that we colonials are in the front, as usual. What else is new? We're simply the best country that the world has ever seen. Kudos to us.

Yeah, Galloway is a puke. I started to research the squirming maggot but got too sick to my stomach.

As someone wrote here the other day...
Abortion = murder. Dead Iraqi children = collateral damage.

Mountain Rose
ewwww.

No, I think that Kimberly has a real thing for Dubya. I really think she'd pull a Fatal Attraction on Laura if she could.

"Well, what am I supposed to do Dubya? You won't answer my calls, you change your number. Your Secret Service guys block me. I mean, I'm not gonna be ignored, George!"

Hardly "baseless"
Limbaugh quotes Boxer as saying to Rice, "I personally believe -- this is my personal view -- that your loyalty to the mission you were given, to sell the war, overwhelmed your respect for the truth." He then characterizes this as a "baseless accusation." I can only wonder what planet Limbaugh is living on. The administration certainly sold the war with false information, and Rice was at the very center of the administration. Limbaugh can't make that go away simply because he is a dead-ender who still wants to believe in the fairy tales conjured by a lying pack of fascist wannabes who have shamed America, the Repubican party, and the conservative movement.

al writes:
"A terrorist victory in Iraq...."

A statement like this is so incredibly nondescript as to be nonsensical.

It uses a generic catch phrase - terrorist- without describing who they are, how they could attain a victory, or what type of governing body the "terrorists" would use when they did attain this victory. In short, it's moronic fear speech unless you can back it up with some type of scenario that has a possibility of occuring or at least identifying exactly who you mean as terrorists.

johninoregon
How long before someone writes that "WMDs WERE found" nonsense... I'm betting that it won't be long.

What Condi Should Have Said
"Gee, Senator Boxer. Unlike you, I couldn't afford nannies for any kids I had while trying to get ahead in politics and academia, so I didn't have any kids. That's what a lot of women who don't come from wealthy families do. But I wouldn't expect you to know anything about that."

Sekhmet
While I agree with you, Condi showed class by ignoring the p.o.s.

Of course, she's had a lot of practice what with liberals calling her Aunt Jemima, the "Kitchen" help, etc.

Quite obviously, Dhimmicrats HATE it when blacks jump the plantation and achieve things on their own thus disproving the "victimhood theory" that liberals slap on minorities.

Remember
Remember Oliphant's cartoons of Rice as a parrot with big lips.
Normally the press would have censored that as racist except that she is a pro Bush person.

How selective!

limbaugh's logic
he says boxer is giving herself a license she won't give rice, which is the moral justification to make a decision for the war on iraq.

boxer says rice easily can say we should go to war because she has nothing real to lose personally.

limbaugh says boxer should not have an opinion on the war because she has nothing real to lose personally either.

however, i think boxer would retort, "i may have nothing to lose, but i don't let that fact make it any easier for me to go along with the war."

but boxer has something to lose, and thus it's easy for her to be against the war: her liberal votes. if she doesn't go against the war, then she loses her dirty dem votes.

so, if boxer said to rice, "it's no wonder you're for the war, you have nothing to lose," rice should have retorded, "it's no wonder you're against the war, you have everything to lose."

thus, while rice has nothing to lose personally, boxer has everything to lose politically. who would you rather have making the decision?

Critical Bill
Tell you what.

If you disbelieve that the "old" VX/SARIN 155mm arty shells found by and documented by the Marines, why don't you volunteer to test out potentcy of that brew.

Just put one drop one you skin. If you don't start doing the chicken in 30 seconds or less, why, I'll but you a grilled stufted burrito, sans E Coli, at the nearest Taco Bell.

BTW, just HOW did those Kurds die in 1991? Massive outbreak of loss of muscle control, symptomatic of nerve agent poisoning?

Lastly, one, just ONE of those 155mm binary VX/SARIN shells contains enough nerve agent to kill about 10,000 people with a lethal dose of one drop.

But don't listen to me, I only have buddies who seen the sh*t, sent me photos, and emails on it. I've only attended NBC training every frigging year of my 21 years in the Corps. WTF do I know?

Just keep repeating what the other parrots say, I'm sure that it is more comforting to you.

GunnyG
sets new standards in rudeness as well as baseless accusations. I want to see one quote from anyone calling Rice Aunt Jemima or "kitchen" help, and I don't mean some post on a blog - someone who can actually be regarded as a liberal spokesperson.

PaxGaeaDave:
I served my time, as well as have many that post here at TH, in the military. Not to mention that I also served in combat. I know what it feels like to live in terror everyday, told that I can't fire till fired upon. I always hoped that if it came to it my bullet would somehow magically travel faster than theirs.
I'm not afraid to die for my country, neither is any man or woman that VOLUNTEERED for military service.
The most dangerous place to live in the world is in the womb of an American woman. I don't see any of you libs getting your panties in a wad over the 4 million+ American children mutilated in America since the Iraq war started. You're not bothered when some psycho drowns her 5 children. You want to make sure that she is helped. I don't hear anyone calling for help for Jorge. Just punishment. You're not bothered when some nut job judge allows a child molester to walk.
Pull your head out of that dark crevasse it's shoved so far up and get a clue. Opine for yourself, not the rest of us Vets! ("But those of us who served don't speak Rhode Island Red.")

GunnyG- Kimmie as stalker- LOL
GunnyG writes: Tuesday, January, 16, 2007 9:53 AM
Mountain Rose
ewwww.
No, I think that Kimberly has a real thing for Dubya. I really think she'd pull a Fatal Attraction on Laura if she could.
"Well, what am I supposed to do Dubya? You won't answer my calls, you change your number. Your Secret Service guys block me. I mean, I'm not gonna be ignored, George!"
*********************************

Your comment convinces me that she is after Bush & Bush.

limbaugh's comment
Sorry Mr. Limbaugh but the last time I looked there were just as many Republican "Chicken Hawks", as were Democrats. All 'sqawk'and no talon.

GunnyG- trying to mind my Ps & Qs
If I am a bit obtuse in my comments, it is because I am trying to avoid Siberia

phil byler's comments
"There was no excuse for Senator Boxer's comments."

sure there was. it's called oversight. and i'm really put off that so many conservatives are upset that someone, even if they're entirely wrong, put some hard, rude questions to someone. or tried to call the situation like it is, rather, as they see it. i thought candor was appreciated around these parts.

"The left wing simply wants to disqualify people from voicing their views when the left disagrees with them."

ah, yes, the age old tactic of liberal website editors who do not let a) people post after stupid article, or b) republicans or conservatives to post on their sites.

"My older son is a Lieutenant serving in Iraq, and I support the President's new Iraq plan."

thank you for your sacrifice.

Birdbrain hawks
It isn't only that Republicans who never served call Democrats who have unpatriotic. It's that the neocons know nothing about anything military (except old war stories from PBS), yet they feel entitled to overrule all the professionals and launch wars they have no idea how to win. Did they listen to General Shinseki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Shinseki

or Colin Powell or the intellegence professionals in the State Department who knew the WMD claims were weak?

If you think Boxer to Rice was rude, what about Bush to Webb?


82nd Airborne Div - ever seen a Chicken
Hawk?

I have. I saw one grab a pigeon once and have it for lunch- they eat them alive, you know.

A Chicken is a pretty big bird to carry off, but Chicken Hawks are up for the job.

Bwock, bwock!

Be afraid, be very afraid!

By Definition....
Chickenhawk:

(also chicken hawk and chicken-hawk) is a political epithet used in the United States to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who strongly supports a war or other military action, but has never personally been in a war, especially if that person is perceived to have actively avoided military service when of draft age.

The term is meant to indicate that the person in question is cowardly or hypocritical for personally avoiding combat in the past while advocating that others go to war in the present. Generally, the implication is that "chickenhawks" lack the experience, judgment, or moral standing to make decisions about going to war.

Often, there is a further connotation that "chickenhawks" falsely believe that their support for military action is a mark of personal courage analogous to actual combat, thereby demeaning those actually serving while elevating themselves.

Please
>You're not bothered when some psycho drowns her 5 children. You want to make sure that she is helped. I don't hear anyone calling for help for Jorge. Just punishment. You're not bothered when some nut job judge allows a child molester to walk.<

Please feel free to explain the methodology of your survey.

none of you critics of Bush
have ever served as Commander in Chief!

By your own standards, who are you to criticize?

CVN65
To be fair...and perhaps my memory is incorrect...I believe Bush did not land the plane on that carrier. I believe he piloted the aircraft to the carrier but that the co-pilot handled the take-off and landing.

liberalgoodman - birdbrains in boxers
Birdbrain Hawk?

I think a Leftie Birdbrain would not make very much of a snack for a Hawk!

Barbara Boxer Shorts? Of course she would say something catty, because she is jealous!

Do you not think Condi has had plenty of offers to sire her children? She probably had many more offers than Senator Boxer. But listening to the Feminazis, Condi chose to focus on her career.

And then the attack Boxer dog of the Left turns around and bites her for following their advice.

Typical Feminazi Hypocracy!

Kimberly
Kimmy, it's actually "frogMARCHED" off to prison.

Please get your leftist rhetoric correct.

BTW, how's that "frogmarching" off Rove going? We've been waiting to hear something on that since, like 2003.

So
If pro-war folks not in the military are chickenhawks, what does that make anti-war people whose only military experience is being the paladin in a D&D campaign?

Left Angle- the Real Definition
From Miriam-Webster's online dictionary:
chicken hawk
One entry found for chicken hawk.
Main Entry: chicken hawk
Function: noun
1 : a hawk that preys or is believed to prey on chickens
2 slang : a man who pursues boys or young men for sexual purposes
**********************************

Dear Left Angle:

The first definition refers to conservatives.

The second refers to Leftists.

Chicken Hawks eat chickens. Better Run!

Honorable Men, not chickenhawks
sIn Haig's presence, Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as "dumb, stupid animals to be used" as pawns for foreign policy. This is the kind of chickenhawk stuff people are mad about. It seems that the biggest hawks are the ones that would have never put their life on the line for this country. Oh it also seems that they coincidentally have all been involved in businesses and companies that are thriving by our post 9/11 response. Their buddies seem to be doing fine as well. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. This is all obviously coincidental, they love this country and are doing what they think is best, personal and fincancial ambition have nothing to do with it eventhough it just happens to be in line with their decisions. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Grubby
...You mentioned New York state so I just have to vent. I was born and raised in New York state. I call it the Nazi state. I have freely chosen NOT to live there.
When I was young and poor, our one delight was to splash around in a local lake that had been formed by damming a river to control flooding way back in the 1800's. It was rocky and devoid of any amenities but on a hot summer day it's just what a poor kid needs. It was outside of town a bit so our parents would have to be available to take us. Ergo, it was a rare treat.
One day the Liberals decided the lake should have a nice beach. They brought in sand and built a bathhouse. They also charged a dollar and a half to get in so us poor folk stuck with the free rocky edges because we needed the dollar and a half to buy milk and bread.
The people were not flocking to the new beach that cost money which filled the Liberals pockets. They then went all around the lake erecting barriers and posting "NO SWIMMING OR WADING" signs making it illegal to access the lake anywhere but at their beach.
Result: the poor folk were denied access to the Lake.
Moral of the Story: Look at the RESULTS of what Liberals do, don't listen to their cheap words.
P.S. Last time I checked the entry fee was up to $7.50. That was a while ago.

Monty
Thanks for the correction. You are probably correct. Since Bush never served in the Navy, he would never have had experience doing that.
Gunny- let's just try to ignore Kimberly. Engaging her in debate just plays into her plan.

CVN65
God knows I try. I, like Mountain Rose, don't want to be banished to Siberia by TH again!

That is why I won't get into it with the resident lib-baiters. It's just not worth trying untangle that twisted mass inside their skulls.

Like the Stones song goes, "I tried so hard to rearrange your mind. But after while I realized you were disarranging mine."

I'll try but I can't resist dogging Kimberly. She has the hot's for Dubya and I truly think that there is a GOP'er inside of her screaming and clawing to escape the moonbat without.

gunny - hilarious!!!!
"I won't get into it with these resident lib-baiters"??????? Who are you trying to kid??? You're incapable of not getting "into it"!!!

To utahnotmormon
Radio host calls Rice ‘Aunt Jemima’

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6530925

I believe this is what you are looking for.

MountainRose
2 slang : a man who pursues boys or young men for sexual purposes
**********************************

Dear Left Angle:

The first definition refers to conservatives.

The second refers to Leftists.

Chicken Hawks eat chickens. Better Run!
-------------------------------------------------


I don't think the Franklin Affair in Omaha had anything to do with leftists. An honorable Republican wrote that book and exposed the sick tastes of some of our ruling elite. What party did Foley and Haggard come from? Just being fair and balanced.

Critical Bill
Ok, BS flag is up here. Whether you agree with the Gunny or not, at least show some respect for a person that can really get into it. At least recognize him as a worthy adversary as he has done for you (not outright but by taking your posts seriously enough to respond).
Gunny- was that Loyal Democrat's best post ever or what?

Hey
I have sparred with Gunny many times, and believe it or not I do respect the fact that like me he ill defend his position to the nth degree. That said, his line about not "getting into it with lib-baiters" is what we call a fair cop!!! I think even Gunny himself would admit that...

Another Tiresome Mantra of the Left
is of course, Global Warming, which they used as a mantra to ride to victory in the last election.

Only a couple of days ago, they were trumpeting the "evidence" of Global Warming, because a few trees in New York had early blossems.

However, I was very sad to see that today the news media has been neglecting the subject of Global Warming.

So I visited the website for The Weather Channel to see what they have to say on the subject.

If you are interested, stop by my blog and comment on my latest post, which is of course titled: "How about that Global Warming?"

KOOL-AIDE FOR SALE!
Hey Asteriks, Apples to Oranges. Or in your case, Cakes to Carburetors. What a joke, remind me not to buy your book when it comes out.

Asteriks writes:
"Well, it so happens that not only are most soldiers far from opposed to the war..."

Maybe they're not opposed, but a significant amout of the American military think Bush is doing a sorry a$$ job as "war president." Read it and weep:

"more troops disapprove of the president’s handling of the war than approve of it. Barely one-third of service members approve of the way the president is handling the war, according to the 2006 Military Times Poll."

http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2006_main.php

Boxer called a spade a spade.

The Limbaugh's Know Tiresome...
Well, I don't think the "chickenhawk" argument is that anybody should refrain from "opining", but that those who were apparently unwilling to serve in the military themselves, or who wrangled state-side, non-combat positions using family influence (Mr. Bush), lack a certain moral authority when it comes to actually sending less-privileged young people off to fight and die, even more so when they still draw a stipend from a company that will greatly profit from the war (Mr. Cheney and Halliburton, not to mention the rest of the folks who are like "this" with the military-industrial complex). Furthermore, it is not so much that unforeseen disasters occurred in this war as in any other (as though war itself was just a routine thing and the concomitant disasters should be shrugged off), but that this war was an exercise in hubris by people who proceeded as though they had no idea of what they were actually doing, despite copious warnings of what would likely really happen (power vacuum leads to power struggle, duh). The thing that I really find tiresome is watching you guys tackle paper cut-out caricatures of what you call "liberalism", while both American kids and innocent Iraqis are dying for the agenda of those chickenhawks.

Monty
Bush was not the pilot of the plane and did not land the plane on the Abraham Lincoln. According to press releases at the time Bush did take the controls of the plane from the pilot for a short time after take-off and before landing.

Another widely mis-reported concept is that the Presient's PR staff, which certainly did have a lot to do with this "photo-op", was responsible for the "Mission Accomplished" banner displayed on the Abe Lincoln that day and that this message was intended to declare that the Iraq War was over. The "Mission Accomplished" banner was the idea and creation of the sailors and airmen aboard the Abraham Lincoln, and its purpose was to publicly "report" to their arriving Commander-In-Chief their their mission was accomplished.

Bush contributed to this mispercetion during his speech aboard the Abraham Lincoln by declaring an end to "major combat operations", which was his way of telling the public that Saddam's armed forces had been defeated. This was a poor choice of words as it developed, since Bush obviously underestimated the amount of violence that would subsequently be perpetrated by terrorists and other militants who were not part of any formally recognized army or militia.

George W Bush- Foley and Haggard
"What party did Foley and Haggard come from?"
*********************************************

I thought it was from the party at Barney Frank's house

wiseone
Read my post from 9:09 to Crawfish. If you understand what "major combat operations" actually are, it will all make more sense. Thanks for backing up Monty; the last thing I wish to do is perpetuate an untruth.

The Future
I envision a Hillary or copycat in office and the resultant withdrawal from everywhere and the subsequent attacks on our own soil. Don't you know this same group of moonbats will find some way to lay the problem at bush. We fight there or here, make your choice.
Let me see,Bush can fund or not fund the VA but he cannot fund the armd forces?

Critical Bill
I will accommodate you.

Lots of WMD have been found in Iraq. And there is a lot of evidence that was a lot more in Iraq at the time this war was "sold" to the Congress and the public.

Russian MIgs.
Al Samoud missiles.
1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium
Sarin gas
Over 500 warheads filled with mustard gas
thousands of empty war heads.
Mobile labs used to make chemical WMD.
Hundreds of tons of chemical WMD precursor.
A centrifuge buried in a scientist's back yard.
Hundreds of trucks headed to the Syrian border in the last days before the invasion.

Only a biased media could look at all of this and report "No WMD".

Only biased partisans in the general public could look at all of this and believe the media that reports "No WMD".

And only fools could believe we wouldn't have found a helluva lot more if we hadn't given Saddam 14 months to hide the rest of it or ship it out of the country.

The first rule of advertising is to endlessly repeat what you want the customer to believe. It is also the first rule of propaganda.

How many times have you heard the "No WMD" mantra repeated? I have heard it TOO MANY times to believe it could be true.

Chickenhawks
Here are a few noted Chicken-hawks in American history:
Woodie Wilson, took the US into World War One, no prior military service.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt, prior to his Presidency he had served as Asst. Secretary of the Navy, no active military service.

Lyndon B. Johnson, his military service consisted of a political "fact-finding" trip to the Southwest Pacific in 1942 which colored his later views of military leadership.

The dog Boxer was attacking
Ms. Rice not asking a professional question to another professional deserving of respect, rather, she chose a personal attack, and most women understood the real meaning of this attack:
"Look at you a woman without a man or children, unlike myself who has both".

This was uncalled for and way off mark. The dog Senator could have phrased her questioning in any other fashion and gotten her point across..but no it was attack mode all the way.

Only a woman would pose this sort of question to another woman and that type of woman is cruel, jeolous and cat-fighting.

It was humiliating to watch, but Ms. Rice handled it ably and professionally, showing why she's where she is and the dog Boxer is who she. is.

It's the contempt, stupid.
Despite the apocryphal line about Kissinger, I have to ask---who is more likely to think of the military as war criminals and troglodytes?

HINT: It's not likely the "chickenhawks"

So let me get this straight: If my blood sugar was somehow under control when I was 18, and I could join the military, I'd be a war criminal or a mindless drone, but since I didn't join the military, but hold them in the highest esteem, I am a chickenhawk because I think that the military can win in Iraq.

So what kind of coward do we call people who not only don't join the military, but actively hold them in contempt?

One More Thing
Why are the people of California so stupid as to elect an inane non-entity like Boxer to the United States Senate?

wiseone- of course Bush said that
major combat operations were over, because the plan was to hand the country over to the Iraquis right away.

The unforseen practice of Moslems murdering each other to stir up chaos and prevent democracy prevented us from finishing the war when originally expected.

So we stayed, because we had made a commitment to the Iraqui people to bring them to the point of self-governance.

I call this admirable, to stick it out even though the going is getting tough. But the media is so desperate for the United States to lose, they fail to see the character it takes to stand by your allied, even when things get hard.

Instead, they make up slogans to repeat over and over until the mind-numbed couch potatoes accept the slogans as fact.

82nd Airborne Div
Great to see another ALL-AMERICAN in here. My father was 82nd from 56-60 and my uncle served three tours in the Southeast Asian Kumbaya Conference (multiple PHs) in the 82nd before retiring as a light Col...after he served in WW2 and Korea as a Marine enlisted man.

If we can't comment on a subject
because we have no pony in that race, then I think it is time for all the Lesbians and Gays to keep their noses out of the abortion debate. Also disqualified would be all of the old gals who are way past child bearing, who nevertheless are the mainstays of the pro-abortion rallys!

Sekhmet
Playing a paladin in D&D???? Damn if that ain't a great line!
(sez the former gamer who never played a paladin because he's not a goody two shoes type...lawful/good is BOOOOOORING!)

Critical Bill
LOL!

I've refuted every point you've ever made here without a whole lot of effort. I've spanked your leftist buddies here many times over.

I've invited moonbats like Kimmy and Left Angle to my blog MANY TIMES and guess what. ZERO takers.

The bottom line is that YOU WILL NEVER change my mind about how liberals suck just like I will never make you see the greatness of our free society and that you Eurabians owe us big-time.

So Solly but there it is.

Just Wondering
What makes a hero? I have known many that instantly knew the the very best thing to do and did it. Unfortunately, my process was usually much slower.
How does the Left get to own the argument about the soldiers killed/wounded? These are volunteers.They know and yet they re-up. In the meantime the Libs who are perfectly willing to let others die, abortion,Nam.Russia, and so on get to chose the outline of argument ie (soldiers dying in Iraq.

CVN65
LD has a magic touch.

He is 100% correct. Look what happened to Steele when he departed the plantation and went right-wing.

Called Uncle Tom and had Oreos hurled at him.

So much for liberal tolerance.

Not to mention Comrade Kucinich's attack on Freedom of Speech. (on my blog).

There you go again Gunny
Not only are you incapable of no getting "into it", you are also proving my point about being able to interact on a human level. I write something saying I respect you and you come back with a rant about how right you always are. You are beginning to remind me of that bloke played by Frederick Forrest in "Falling Down"...

It's not about changing one's mind...
Truth has a liberal bias.

Liberals invested in defeat
Everyone can see that the liberals have everything to gain from our defeat in Iraq. It advances their partisan political agenda (think religion). It also cements their political power (think more millions for limousine liberals).

Now, can anyone tell me what they have to lose from a US defeat in Iraq? Anyone?

When it comes to motivation, I am in mortal terror of having morally relativistic political opportunists, who have so much to gain from our defeat, in a position of power over this war effort, not to mention their influence over our national security as a whole.

Oh, and for those of you who would like to erase my right to speak out by attempting to disqualify my opinion, I served in the Gulf, and am a VFW. Now, which of you have or are currently serving in Kosovo?

Speaking of Tiresome....
If I hear one more repub/cons make this ridiculous statement I will puke..lol

"liberals, democrats and anti-war leftist are undermining President Bush, aiding, abetting and embolding the enemy."

Get real..

as if Bush doesnt undermine himself by stubbornly and arrogantly "staying the course" in Iraq when practically everyone in the country is telling him otherwise.

It's like he's telling all his critics:

"I'm the President and I'm running this show and if you dont like it: "tough sh*t.."

As for libs/dems aiding, abetting and embolding the enemy..

are you right wingers telling us that if everyone who opposes the Iraq War would just shut the H*ll up, the enemy would lay down their arms and stop attacking?

get real..lmao

Vic
Thanks for the link. As you can imagine, it wouldn't be hard living in Utah to miss a local Milwaukee radio station broadcast.

Critical Bill
Oh, stop whining and grow a thicker skin.

I was merely referring to your posts saying that I could not get "into it".

Amigo, I have spoken publicly on my views. I have a blog where I AIR my views. I contribute to other right-wing speakers in my free-time.

I've often wondered why you and many other leftists posting here don't get your blog here, FREE of charge? Why is that? Afraid to "get into it?"

A quote from one of my personal heroes.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

I'm in the arena but I don't see YOU there!

Ray..Libs have common sense..
you righties want to "win" in Iraq yet you cant define what that means..furthermore you want to
"win" at all cost and dont really give a da*m how many people get killed in the process especially it doesnt invole anyone in your own family returning in a casket.

liberals realize that the Iraq War is a waste of time, money and U.S. military lives because it no matter what you accomplish in Iraq it will do absolutely NOTHING to stop another domestic terrorist attack on the U.S. Furthermore liberals recognize that its the Iraqi people who will determine their future by fighting for it without U.S. assistance.

Gunny
I think my skin is thick enough; there have been plenty of times here on Townhall that I've taken plenty. And I don't really have time for a blog - particularly as I am paid to write a column in a national newspaper six days a week. Not on politics, but hey, it's better than getting a dozen readers a day like your blog does.

Left Angle
87 STRAIGHT front-page days of the non-issue Abu Ghraib story on the NY Slimes.

Numerous leaks from the NYT on different Counterterrorism tactics that can only serve to help the Islamofascists.

Newsweek's bogus story of Koran burnings at Gitmo. Hey, it only incited global "peaceful" Muslim rioting right?

Just to name a few.

Constant maligning remarks from Quagmire Ted, Hanoi John, Turbin Durbin, etc, etc ad frigging nauseum.

The Hollyweird elite attacking Bush and the war time and time again. High School grads who caught a break with Mommy and Daddy's help, giving us poor peasant's lectures on foreign policy.

Yeah, the left and the MSM are SURE behind the POTUS on this one!

No Apology Necessary
Boxer doesn't owe Rice an apology - she was right on the money when she asked her question - Rice does not have to make any sacrifices - she just asks other folks to make them - most of the REMF hawks that post on this site and others have never served in the Armed Forces - sent a round down range - or even contemplated it - brave folks with other peoples lives

Left Angle
"liberals realize that the Iraq War is a waste of time, money and U.S. military lives because it no matter what you accomplish in Iraq it will do absolutely NOTHING to stop another domestic terrorist attack on the U.S."
==============================
So, should we just surrender right now or wait a decent interval like the French do?

"They're gonna win anywaaaaaaaaaaay so why bother."

So, using YOUR LOGIC, if your house is being robbed, just help the robbers and HOPE that they don't murder you, since they're gonna get it all anyway right? Just try to be nice and speed them on their way?

THAT is the logic of the liberal moonbat.

Boxer & Rice
Since Boxer was so disrespectful of Sec. Rice, I would like to ask the
Senator one question.

" To what political party did Bull Conner of Birmingham, and others of his ilk, belong when they were trying to stop integration?" I can promise you it wasn't the Republicans.

Condi Rice has too much class to ask that question, but somebody should.

The Old Coot

I'm sorry, Left Angle
I seemed to have missed your points supporting the left's vested interest in winning.

In fact, your post fully supports my view.

By the way, the topic is perspective and motivations regarding war.

Why should I trust anyone to direct this war who is invested in our defeat?

What is the liberal plan for dealing with "detainees?"

What is the liberal plan for dealing with internal espionage?

What is the liberal plan for dealing with the border's security implications? (forget who picks apples - I don't care)

What is the liberal plan for dealing with N. Korea?

What is the liberal plan for dealing with Iran?

What is the liberal plan for dealing with Pakistan?

What is the liberal plan for dealing with our security as it pertains to our dependence on energy?

Let me guess, a minimum wage increase quickly followed by an increase in my taxes right?

Oh, and by the way, any solution which contains the word "Bush" isn't viable.

Hate Bush is not a strategy.

WHY SHOULD I TRUST ANYONE TO HANDLE A WAR THAT HAS AN OVERWHELMING INTEREST IN ITS LOSS AND NOTHING TO LOSE BY DEFEAT?

Anyone?



THIS "Chickenhawk" says...
1) Ms. Rice is making the sacrifice of public service, where she gets paid half what she's worth and daily suffers the wrath of fools like Sen Boxer. She not only has a RIGHT to her opinion, it's her JOB to have an opinion.

2) I'm not serving now because I'm 53 years old; I didn't serve in Vietnam because at the time, I was a LIBERAL, and being such and according to type, I a) didn't consider it my responsibility; b) hated the military; c) convinced myself (liberals are good at this) that opposing the war was "patriotic," even though I had not the slightest twinge of genuine love of country to trump my overweening love of self; and d) was a coward. I say this to my shame. Fortunately, I grew up.

Liberals love screaming "Chickenhawk" despite the fact -- and it is a fact -- that Republicans outnumber Democrats in the military in excess of 2 to 1 (this according to informal polls by Stars and Stripes, and confirmed by the behavior of Democrat operatives who deliberately disenfranchised military voters in 2000 on the presupposition that more of them voted for Bush than for Gore.) And like so many arguments from Democrats, it's an ad hominem falacy, a tactic usually executed by mean-spirited people of low character when they can't win a debate on its merits. We all have a stake in this war, and we all have an equal right to form and express an opinion on it. For those of us to whom it is not our job (as it is Secy Rice's job), it's a privilege of citizenship, and a duty for the civic-minded.

sardine101 and PaxGaeaDave

It is not really the most witty thing to call into question a person's service or call them a REMF.
Like many others on this site that you disparage, I did serve, I was shot at, (They missed), and I have 2 sons in service. I believe I have the right to comment without your insults.

Also like many liberals you discount Dr. Rice's race since she's not on "your" side of the argument. You probably think that Mr. Conyer's proposal is a great thing.

Mantra?
Chicken Hawk?
Cut&Run Coward?

There is another mantra associated with war.
It is used to label people who collaborate with the enemy and do things to give aid and comfort to the enemy, boost enemy moral and encourage them, spy for them, etc.
"Traitor" is the word.
Does that job description fit anyone around here?

Ray
Check out my story on Pelosi's little scam on her Min wage hike. How she left American Samoa OUT of it much to the delight of Del Monte.

Also, note how fast the MSM "lost" track of that story.

PACKRAT...

Take a bow my friend, well said.

I was in a combat arms/support MOS and used to take sh*t from the grunts...until I showed up and dug their holes and gun pits for them. Anyone using the term REMF is immediately disregarded. What they fail to realize is that SOMEONE has to bring the beans, bullets, and bandaids up to the fighting.

To sardine101
After reading down through all of the posts in this thread it appears to me that almost all of the pro-Iraq war comments do in fact come from veterans. (or at least all of the ones from the males.)

GunnyG
Re: Your 12:10 PM post.

Thank you for the reminder of those excellent words. Seems to me if applies well to our president, too.

And not to be repetitive... but thank you again for your service to the greatest nation in history.

May you continue to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC!


To PaxGaeaDave
Please enlighten me on which branch of the U.S. Military in which a 53 year old man can enlist and be accepted... I'll sign up today.

Jackass!

left angle
Left Angle wrote: "you righties want to "win" in Iraq yet you cant define what that means..

Winning means the US leaves, and a stable, Iraqi Republic successfully manages a growing, prosperous peacetime economy, refrains from supporting international Muslim terrorists against the West, and behaves civilly toward all her neighbors.

Does that sound like a reasonable definition to you?

Then he wrote: " furthermore you want to
"win" at all cost and dont really give a da*m how many people get killed in the process especially it doesnt invole anyone in your own family returning in a casket."

This is mean-spirited claptrap, an ad hominem falacy, and unworthy of a decent citizen. For every grieving mother you produce who opposes the war, I'll produce at least two who are proud of their child and understand the purpose for which they died. The war has not been overwhelmingly costly in comparison to other wars, but PLENTY of Republicans have paid the price of vigilance, and I think you know this perfectly well.

Why aren't you ashamed to make that classless argument?

Finally, he wrote: "liberals realize that the Iraq War is a waste of time, money and U.S. military lives because it no matter what you accomplish in Iraq it will do absolutely NOTHING to stop another domestic terrorist attack on the U.S."

And you still think the sole purpose of the war in Iraq is to prevent another terrorist attack in the US? That's the sum of your understanding of the threat faced by the West?

We're in a long-term war of attrition with Islamic Jihadis, who believe Islamic domination of the entire planet is their Manifest Destiny, and who will gladly murder as many Westerners as it takes to make that happen. It's not clear how many of the 1.6 billion (with a "b") middle eastern Muslims this includes. What IS clear is that they consider their victory in Iraq a clear indicator of their Destiny, and they consider the US achieving victory in Iraq (as defined above) a serious blow to their plans. That, by itself, makes this a worthwhile effort.

And while the fact that there was a direct attack against US interests somewhere just about once a year through the 90s, and there hasn't been an attack against US soil since 9/11/2001, doesn't prove that the war is worthwhile, it's not a bad indicator that something we're doing is right. Among the possibilities, there's the obvious fact that a Jihadi taking on an armed, trained, supported US soldier in Iraq is a Jihadi that is NOT taking on an unarmed, untrained, civilian in New York.

You're kidding, right?
Boxer doesn't owe Rice an apology - she was right on the money when she asked her question - Rice does not have to make any sacrifices - she just asks other folks to make them - most of the REMF hawks that post on this site and others have never served in the Armed Forces - sent a round down range - or even contemplated it - brave folks with other peoples lives

Sardine 101 thinks Rice doesn't make any sacrifices? Tell you what Sardine... unless you are a civil servant now, quit your present job and apply for one with the federal government. You get to cheerfully swallow a bunch of b.s. from people who don't know what they are talking about, but they are your bosses. All for a salary that is about half of what you are worth. Oh, did I mention that once you hit Condi's level of government for employment, add in days/weeks of travel with no time off, along with all the stressors that go with it?

BTW I don't know what the heck is an REMF, and frankly I don't care. I served 6 years in the military... a woman... in the 1970's and 1980's. Ask any other man who served during this time how we were treated. Multiply that times two for Condi, as she is also a minority.

I'm proud of my military service, as are most others who have a viewpoint not of your own.


Ray: Your statement is propaganda
you said:

"WHY SHOULD I TRUST ANYONE TO HANDLE A WAR THAT HAS AN OVERWHELMING INTEREST IN ITS LOSS AND NOTHING TO LOSE BY DEFEAT?"

This is nothing but right wing propaganda...

as far as I am concerned there is no winning or losing in Iraq. the way I look at it is I can see absolutely no benefit to the U.S. continuing to say there. We liberated the Iraqi people, removed S. Hussien and it has been proven that Iraq was absolutley no threat to the U.S.

Like i said, use your common sense like us libs/dems. or can you tell me how "winning"
in Iraq is gonna stop another terrorist attack on the domestic U.S.?

Critical Bill
Where in this sceptered Isle do you reside and how did you chance upon this cornucopia of colonial conservatism? Why does no one mention the real reason the good Dr Rice has no children?

Liberals Are Very Smart Folks
Almost every post wants to portray liberals as a bunch of ill mannered people with iq's hovering around room temperature.

YOU UNDERESTIMATE YOUR ENEMY!

Do you not understand that they KNOW what they are doing? Boxer, Murtha, Pelosi et al KNOW they are destroying the United States of America.
For their own reasons, this is their purpose in life.

Understand that and understand with the voter base they have- a voter base that cares not one whit for anything but the Democrat chorus of "More for less" and you have a real problem on your hands. One that may no longer be solved at the ballot box.

REMF
My apologies to the sensitive among us:

REMF = Rear Echelon Mother F***er

Grunt term for officers and politicians hanging safely to the rear while ordering the grunts to charge.

Wolfy, you're evading ...
You never answered the question.

WHY SHOULD I TRUST ANYONE TO HANDLE A WAR THAT HAS AN OVERWHELMING INTEREST IN ITS LOSS AND NOTHING TO LOSE BY DEFEAT?

Anyone?

Primus54
Nice reply at 12:59! haha.

As I've stated, it was all my pleasure but thx again.

My buddy just called to let me know that his son got accepted to the AF Academy. That's the fourth generation for his family.

My daughter wants to go to the AFA as well and is a straight A student and my son wants to do the NavAcad and be a Marine Officer!

Also, I tried to remobilize after retiring but no dice as the Marine Corps isn't taking retirees...they don't have to! Kids are enlisting/reenlisting in droves God Bless em.

vespanat
Who gives a d*mn whether or not she has kids. Your Queen has had kids who, I might say, haven't done so well in their lives. Divorces, affairs, etc, so much for the sanctity of "royal" blood.

Your bigotry is showing. Maybe she values public service above a family? If she were a white man, I'm betting that you and the Dhimmicrats would not have said a thing.

Jim Webb's Jihad
Why don't the Democrats give Senator Jim Webb a jet aircraft to crash into the White House with President Bush inside, because letting him give the Democrats response to the State of the Union amounts to doing the same thing.

Left Angle admits
that he doesn't find any value in a positive outcome in Iraq:

"Like i said, use your common sense like us libs/dems. or can you tell me how "winning"
in Iraq is gonna stop another terrorist attack on the domestic U.S.?"

This is what I'm telling you, people. Listen up.

They have everything to gain from our defeat in Iraq and nothing to lose.

Now, can you see why they do everything they can to undermine its success while simultaneously claiming to "support the troops?"

Admit it, you believe that terror states should continue unabated to export terror through intel, cash, training, a place to hide and bodies, but not with their own uniformed troops, and you're willing to ignore the losses (see the vast majority of the Clinton administration), and continue with a strategy of handing over our security to a corrupt union of socialist dictators and euroleftists on the take who believe that America deserves whatever it gets because of its support for Israel (think UN).

That's not a plan. That's what we were doing when 9/11 happened.

Where's your plan?!? Tell me, does it involve conforming all of our actions politically and otherwise to the will of those who would blow up our citizens, lest we anger them?

WHY SHOULD I TRUST ANYONE TO HANDLE A WAR THAT HAS AN OVERWHELMING INTEREST IN ITS LOSS AND NOTHING TO LOSE BY DEFEAT?

Anyone?

By the same token Ray,
Why should anyone trust a CINC who has made demonstrably poor military decisions over the past 6 years?

Ray? Anyone?

Gunny G
Once again Americans miss the blindingly obvious. Is it not a little odd that someone as attractive, intelligent and successful appears not to have found a partner (or at least one that can be seen in Conservative circles). Reminds me of the questions about George Michael in the 80's.
Regarding the Queen, I'm with you completely on that one. Her and her offspring are a constant source of embarrassment to me.

vespanat
Hey, maybe she doesn't want to be married. I judge her on the job that she is doing and I for one, think that she's doing a damn good job. The M.E. has been a problem since the Balfour Declaration if I am correct.

A lot of people who have never dealt with M-E types (I did in the 90-91 Gulf War) don't realize that Arabs tout 10,000 years of baggage with them in any dealings!

The old Inshallah line of crap.


Kristol=Chicken Hawk
As the invasion and occupation of Iraq was a war of choice and not a struggle for civilization as was World War Two, I think it is fair to size up those who advocated this war and whether they have fought for their country or are willing to join the army now. Having passed by Bill Kristol and David Brooks over the years near my business here in Washington, I can vow that this fearsome duo would have a difficult time defeating a junior high school cheerleader in combat- the both of them together, that is. Kristol resembles a lepreuchan while Brooks resembles a troll.

Both Brooks and Kristol and thier ilk are unmanly little men who have succeeded in sending our valiant soldiers into a war they themselves would not go even if they were of age. The war in Iraq is fought largely by rural, white young men in the service of Washington neo-conservative policy mavens whose idea of physical labor is clicking the mouse on their computers.

On another note, anybody notice that Barbara Boxer does not resemble the hag who was first elected to Congress in the 1980s? She and Mrs. Pelosi must have medical secrets inquiring minds would like to know.

Derek Leaberry
One word.

BOTOX

Only rich politicians like Hanoi John, Red Nancy, and Babs "shed a tear" Boxer can afford it on a daily basis.

Gunny G
Well the Middle East situation has certainly improved under the Bush Administrations' watch so she must get credit for that (that's British irony)!!!!
Maybe she can't get married in most states thanks to her boss.

inkling_revival
"Liberals love screaming "Chickenhawk" despite the fact -- and it is a fact -- that Republicans outnumber Democrats in the military in excess of 2 to 1"

That's true, but only relevant to the next generation of politics. Of the current generation of politicians, just as many Democrats have served their country in the military as Republicans. If service in the Vietnam-era National Guard is excluded, Democrats are even more well represented.

Of course, that doesn't matter. Dem. Senator Max Cleland lost both legs and an arm in Vietnam and earned the Silver and Bronze Stars. And how was he repaid for it by the military-loving Republicans? His opponent in the 2002 race called him unpatriotic, and Ann Coulter attacked him as an opportunist. And I won't even go into the Swift Boat campaign against Kerry. Great way to support the troops.

Mountain Rose
I am in agreement with both you and CVN65. I merely meant to point out that Bush's choice of words gave the left another excuse to bash him.

I am in full agreement with his decision to stay and finish the job even though it has turned out to be tougher and messier than anticipated.

vespanat
I wouldn't know.

I have better things to concern myself with her sexual status or who won on American Idol, or whether or not Britney is wearing skivvies or not.

Derek Leaberry
Wow... that was some post.

First, you go to great lengths to describe the "ummanly little men" of Brooks and Kristol... then you end your rant with a report on Boxer & Pelosi I would expect to hear from some guy named Bruce on Extra.

You sure you aren't doing some serious "projecting" here?

Frey writes...
"... And I won't even go into the Swift Boat campaign against Kerry...."

Good... don't get into it.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth = True American Patriot Veterans.

God bless them for caring enough to do the right thing... after already having done enough service for this country with little or no recognition for their courageous sacrifices.

Peace is bad for Republicans
In the first months of the Bush presidency things were's going that well. Thank goodness for 9/11. That was an excuse to start a war. First they invaded Afganistan, which seemed to go so well the world was going to be peaceful again. Can't have that, let's invade another country. Perfect, if it goes well, we take more credit invade another country. If not, we can spend the rest of the time blaming Democrats.

And thank goodness for TH and the Republican noise machine.

wiseone- thanks and sorry
if I misunderstood you.

I was just wondering if the Left has considered that Janet Reno had no children when she burned down that compound in Waco Texas, or ripped Ilya Gonzales out of his relatives home to make Castro happy?

I wonder what Barbara Boxer Shorts said to her then?

liberalgoodman writes:
"And thank goodness for TH and the Republican noise machine."

You're welcome.

And you should also thank goodness for TH allowing you to express your liberal/socialist opinions without bouncing you off... No chance of that same treatment and courtesy toward the Right on DailyKos.

Gunny G
Well I'm glad we can agree on that. Many contributors here might suggest she was immoral were her reason for not being married that she 'couldn't in most states' to reuse that euphemism

LIbEralgoodman
Perhaps you can inform us who was the last Democrat president not to involve the U.S. in military action. For extra credit you can inform us which of these Democrat presidents completely failed in his attempt at military action.


Thank goodness for the TH forums, which on a daily basis expose the idiocy, illogic, irrationality and corruption of liberal "thinking".

Primus
I like women who look good. No matter what extreme they may go to to look good. Most Democrat women look like hags- Rosa DeLauro, Debbie Stabenow, Babs Mikulski... you know the line up. It is refreshing that a few Democrat women are willing to make themselves look attractive to men.

In contrast, most Republican women do seem to try to look good for men. I appreciate that.

liberalgoodman
Normally I wouldn't reply to something as stupid as your post. But here are a few facts for you.

WW1, Woodrow Wilson, a democrat-pacifist gets us involved.

WW2, FDR, a socialist-democrat gets us involved to the tune of 405,000 dead, a million WIA, and about 7 trillion dollars spent. Conspiracy theorists, and some scholars, including Historian Gordon Prange, believe FDR knew of PH, as he was warned by Brit Intel in November 41, after they hit the Italians at Taranto.

Korea, Dem Truman slashed the military so bad that in June 1950, we were using obsolete weapons to stop the NK. (Task Force Smith). In fact, the Marine Corps dispatched mechanics to old WW2 battlefields to try and repair tanks to shop to the Pusan perimeter.

Vietnam, JFK expanded it in Oct 1963, and LBJ ran with it. There is no estimation of how much money LBJ made off of the Vietnam War with nhis huge block of Colt and SeaLand stock.

Velcro-Fly Clinton dispatched the US military on meals-on-wheels feel good programs, wasting money and manpower.

Nixon stopped Vietnam.

Reagan ended the Cold War that FDR started at Yalta.

Bush 41 spanked Saddam at the cost of 100 casualties.

Bush 43 spanked the Taliban and Saddam with fewer KIA than D-Day I believe.

To vespanat
I would say that the situation in the Middle East has improved. Amoung a host of other things it is hard for someone to send $10,000 blood money to the familily of a dead suicide bomber from the gates of a blazing hell.

Vic
Actually, Saddam was paying 25G's per event with 95% of that going to the PLO from familial "donations".

Other than that, your post was excellent.

Ray
Hate liberals is not a strategy either, especially since hating a nondescript group of millions who differ greatly in opinion from person to person is much harder to pinpoint than one person.

Re: Max Cleland and John Kerry
Frey writes:

"Dem. Senator Max Cleland lost both legs and an arm in Vietnam and earned the Silver and Bronze Stars. And how was he repaid for it by the military-loving Republicans? His opponent in the 2002 race called him unpatriotic, and Ann Coulter attacked him as an opportunist. And I won't even go into the Swift Boat campaign against Kerry. Great way to support the troops."

Cleland was not called a "traitor" by his opponent, Saxby Chambliss, in the 2002 Senate race. Chambliss did run ads in which he pointed out that Cleland had voted against Homeland Security legislation 11 times, always in lockstep with the obstructionist Democrats who controlled the Senate. Chambliss' campaign was guilty of nothing related to Cleland's service besides refusing to agree that because Cleland was a war hero he was entitled to a Senate seat.

The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth had every bit as much right to question Kerry's service as Kerry had to brag about it. Or are the libs going to say the Swift Boat vets are "chickenhawks" too?

Coulter not only called Kerry an "opportunist", she called him a gigolo first. And she was right on both counts.

The fact that Kerry has medals doesn't exonerate him from the charge he is an "opportunist". To the contrary, it is evidence the charge is true because he put himself up for most of his medals.

Finally, the elephant in the room when "chickenhawks" are discussed has to be Bill Clinton. Whatever Bush or any other "privileged" youth did to avoid going to Vietnam, it paled in comparison to the cowardice and hypocrisy of draft dodger Clinton.

Twenty plus years later draft dodger Clinton, as President, shamelessly sent US troops to Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, and expanded their mission in Somalia. No liberals stood up then to cry "chickenhawk". And to this day when liberals cry "chickenhawk" they hypocritically omit Slick Willie from the list of those who evaded serving in Vietnam but showed no hesitation about sending others into battle.

On yet another issue Bill Clinton exempifies the hypocrisy and double standards of today's left.

The Left and Reno
Mountain Rose,

The Left's only considerations at Waco were that the victims were religious "nuts" and they owned guns. As far as the left is concerned that meant they desrved to be burned to death. The fact that a number of women and children (I believe 19 children died horrific deaths) means nothing to them.

If the Bush administration did what Clinton did to Elian Gonzalez the left would scream "impeachment" at the top of their lungs.

The Left has no objective viewpoint by definition because the left rejects moral absolutes. Once you declare all morality relative you have "no moral compass". This is the exact phrase that even the liberal media was forced to apply to Bill Clinton during Monicagate.

wiseone
Libs sometimes forget to mention that Cleland was NOT wounded in combat.

He dropped a hand grenade off of his flak jacket and it exploded. He was not wounded in action as is sometimes reported.

He rates an opinion like any other vet, no more, no less. But what liberals simply refuse to see is their hypocracy. When Bubba was running in 92, military service was not so important but somehow, magically, in 2000, it was.

They wished us to vote for this war hero...
http://www.tincher.to/images/gore_nam.jpg

Another little note is that John Kerry sometimes "forget" to correct people who thought that he was the CMoH winner, Bob Kerrey!

Packrat
You might have served but the majority of the folks that post hawk notes have not - you can tell that from their comments - as far as insulting remarks most of the posts that reply to folks comments are insulting - when I have asked several folks that have made hawklike go get em comments about their service there has always been a big silence - to those that have served - especially the career people - those folks out there are still our kids - I am a member of VFW Post 9192 in Killeen, TX adjacent to Fort Hood - I have not heard one positive comment about the war or Bush from any of the veterans - a good number of them being members of the 4th Inf Div that have just returned from their second rotation - I would like to see a positive outcome to the Iraqi situation - but it looks bleaker and bleaker - what if the surge doesn't work - what then? we just plod on and lose more folks?? Does that make sense ???

Did the liberal media
use that exact phrase in reference to Clinton's adultering buddies Gingrich and Giuliani?

GunnyG
How did Cleland get a silver star???

Sardine101
In earlier combat ops.

Your point?

sardine101
I always good here for the scoop.

http://unix.dfn.org/good_news_iraq.shtml

News from Iraq by Iraqis.

Lady Zen
You must have been a female soldier/salior/marine/airmen/women if you don't know what a REMF is - the old soldiers did not ask for female soldiers - that a lot of them were treated poorly is probably a valid comment- that most of them complained about nothing is also a valid comment – any correction you made on them or critique of their performance was met with a personal "I am really hurt" attitude - life started getting hard when they were assigned to me in 1973 - went to the Cav in 78 but by that time they were there too

GunnyG
It seems like you are trying to dis someone who was cited for valor not once but twice - damn a Silver Star ain't nothing to sneeze at

A two year old letter
is a scoop?

Inkling revival & ray
Ray:

Apparently you missed what happened at midterm elections this year...The vast majority of this countries citzens are AGAINST the Iraq war and President Bush's handling of it and want OUT.
That is why the turned congress over the democrats and if Bush keeps up his "stay the course" strategy up to 2008 and continues thumbing his nose at the majority of the american public, republicans are gonna lose
the white house that year also...so keep asking your question..the majority of the american public has made up their minds. It has nothing to do with "defeat" and everything to do with "common sense".

inling revival:

without set goals for the Iraqi government exactly how long do you think it will take to reach your "winning" forumla?

the subject of this article is republican "chickenhawks" and what i said about them is exactly the truth and if that hurts you so be it.

that argument about the "islamofacist threat" was rejected by the majority of americans at midterms. it's nothing more than exxagerated right wing fear mongering for political gain and it failed.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11-01 was absolutely no threat to the U.S. and nothing achieved their will stop another terrorist attack on the domestic u.s.

sardine101 writes:
"I am a member of VFW Post 9192 in Killeen, TX adjacent to Fort Hood - I have not heard one positive comment about the war or Bush from any of the veterans..."

Sorry... either a) you are talking to Vets whose predisposition is already supportive of your own opinions, or b) your data is based upon a VERY small sampling, or c) you are being disengenuous, or d) some or all of the above.

No way I'm buying this as some kind of statistical evidence.

Did you read GunnyG's post about trying to re-up?

Probably not....

Left Angle and midterms
Lots of folks voted against the GOP not because of Iraq, but because they figgered that a liberal posing as a conservative (most of the new freshman class) is just as good as a conservative who acts like a liberal (most of the voted out bunch). The conservative base didn't come out in strong numbers because they were hacked off at the liberalized GOPs and had nobody to vote for that actually represented them.
If the alternatives to most of the current GOP Congresscritters weren't extreme lefties, I'd vote against the GOPs. The current GOPs are almost as bad as liberals when it comes to profligate spending and complete ignoring of the Constitution.

Boxer and Rice
Even though Boxer was obnoxious, the basic point is valid, most of those elected and appointed officials who are quick to put the troops in harm's way have never served in the military nor do any members of their family serve in the military. They have would acted differently if one of their sons or daughters had to patrol the streets of Baghdad or Fallouja.

Even Robert Novak, a conservative, said in his column two weeks ago, that the State Dept. under Rice is a mess.

Left Angle opines...
"Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11-01 was absolutely no threat to the U.S. and nothing achieved their will stop another terrorist attack on the domestic u.s...."

First of all... great grammar, punctuation, capitalization, etc. (and people like you call Bush an idiot?).

Break it down... nothing to do with 9/11? You are right, nobody in the Bush administration said they did, BUT you lefties have managed to manufacture this straw man out of whole cloth when you substitute "9/11" with the broader "W.O.T."

Absolutely no threat to the U.S.??? How about U.S. "interests"? Oil come to mind? Kuwait come to mind?

And "nothing achieved their (sic) will stop another terrorist attack on the domestic u.s. (sic)"??? REALLY??? How do YOU know? Are you some great clairvoyant who accurately predicted 9/11... or the Cole bombing? Are you in contact with terrorist organizations? Would YOU be willing to bet your own life on that asinine statement?

Left Angle.. it really is time for you to grow up.

Not any Iraqi was al-Qaeda
not any al-Qaeda were Iraqi!

"It is conceivable that the implementation of Boxer's antiwar opinion could put more American lives -- military and civilian -- at risk in the long run, by weakening the United States emboldening terrorists and contributing to the conversion of Iraq into a launching pad for global terrorism"

I do grant that indeed it is 'conveivable,' but what are some dirgruntled Suunis' and Shia going to attack us with? The bones from their chilidren's dead bodies . . .

"Oh my Lord see that raft with a 100 Irais' on it armed with femur bones attacking Los Angeles. . ."

Run for those hills and caves Americans!!!

the term is realist
Military service or not are irrelevant.What the left and libs fail at is the ability to perceive the threat of the islamist deathcult,and/or the stones to confront it.IMO they are beneath chicken,they are the excrement. pre 9/11 this was understandable.Post 9/11 inexcusable,During the Vietnam era their tacit support of the communist enemy was contemptible yet understandable[birds of a feather] currently their aid and comfort of the islamists is merely contemptible.Like it or not Iraq is a theatre in the current world war.A war we had better fight to win,the jihadis surely are.