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Tuesday, October 03, 2006
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Iraq: The bogus recruitment tool
by David Limbaugh
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The November elections are fast approaching, and we still don't have the faintest idea what the Democrats would do in Iraq. That's because they have no earthly idea and certainly no consensus. That's why we should call their bluff and make this the issue of the campaign and debate it every day.

For purposes of argument let's assume as true their debatable allegation that attacking Iraq has set us back in the war on terror because terrorists have used it as a recruiting tool. How should we use this information constructively?

We first have to ask why our attack has driven terrorist recruitment. The antiwar left's unspoken insinuation is that our attack was immoral, perhaps even criminal, and terrorists, being morally sensitive creatures, are justifiably outraged at our alleged neoconservative imperialism.

Without question, Democrats have been trying to paint America's invasion of Iraq as criminal. How else can we interpret their endless allegations that Bush lied about Iraqi WMD and about a relationship between Saddam and 9/11 to fabricate an excuse for war?

Shouldn't we, then, just disgracefully withdraw from Iraq, apologize to the terrorists and make amends to the Iraqi people? Of course, that would be problematic, given that we liberated the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator, are helping them to establish constitutional self-rule and are defending their new government against terrorists who seek to stifle the people's will and incite a civil war.

But our invasion was neither immoral, nor criminal for a multitude of reasons I'll not rehash here. Yet we are told that terrorists are nevertheless having a recruitment heyday over it. If so, why? Because they can. They hate the United States -- they've been teaching this hatred in their mosques and madrassas long before Iraq, long before 9/11 -- and they have exploited our justifiable intervention by warring against us in Iraq and enticing others to join their cause with their (and the Democrats') Bush-and-America-slamming propaganda.

They appeal to those who share their hatred for the United States and for pluralistic and free societies such as the evil, capitalistic, Israel-supporting American empire is helping to establish in Iraq. To thwart this would both weaken the United States and smother a Muslim democracy, which to them is much worse than a secular tyranny.

Continuing with the assumption that our invasion of Iraq, even if morally justified, swelled terrorist ranks, does that mean -- using the full benefit of hindsight -- that we shouldn't have attacked?

I don't believe our invasion will set us back in the long run unless we withdraw before Iraq can defend itself. If terrorists are using Iraq to stimulate recruitment, they are doing so calculatingly and opportunistically and will exploit any and every other conceivable U.S. action elsewhere to promote recruitment.

Those who believe we can do anything to mollify terrorists or dissuade them from further recruitment efforts are delusional. We might have denied the terrorists a short-term recruitment tool if we had done the wrong thing by letting Saddam continue to be a world menace, but not for long. They would have found another excuse soon enough.

There is no way we can avoid a confrontation with terrorists, who have long since declared war on us. If not Iraq, it would be somewhere else. We couldn't even avoid confrontation with terrorists by withdrawing from the world. That wouldn't satisfy them either. They want the United States to be part of the worldwide caliphate as well, and at whatever point we resist, they will have their greatest terrorist recruitment tool yet.

Second-guessing aside, we are in Iraq, so what should we do now? What would Democrats have us do -- especially if their main criterion is to minimize further terrorist recruitment? The clear answer, as affirmed in the celebrated, cherry-picked NIE report of April 2006, is that we have to defeat the terrorists in Iraq or they will be emboldened worldwide. So if Democrats truly believe in the standard they have established, we must defeat the terrorists in Iraq. This means we have to stay there until the Iraqi forces are capable of defending themselves.

So all of the Democrats' jaw flapping about terrorist recruitment is just so much hot air. Even Democrats should understand that to withdraw before Iraqis can do the job themselves would be to throw the white flag of surrender to the global jihadists, which would be Mogadishu to the tenth power and invite further 9/11s to the tenth power.

Democratic leaders are mini-emperors with no clothes and no plan, so let's demand their "plan" without cessation through Election Day.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Bush: no plan and no clue.
Limbaugh adopts the conventional Republican tactic of late: demand that Democrats present a plan for Iraq, ignore any and all Democratic plans, and then repeat the damand more loudly, meanwhile brandishing Bush's witless "stay the course" mantra as a shining example of Republican statecraft.
As Tanabear points out, the only sensible response at this time to the debacle precipitated by Bush's invasion, is to broker a tripartite division of the country between the warring factions and get our troops out of harm's way (not necessarily in that order.)

Two parties, zero plans
Yep, Democrats lack the first clue what to do.

And Republicans lack the first clue what to do.

And Limbaugh lacks maturity.

Wah! They don't have a plan, either! Wah!

The American Empire
Yep, we're imperialists alright. That's why we own France, Germany, Japan, Kuwait, Kosovo, Panama, Granada, Iraq, Afganistan, Poland, South Korea and Italy. Yep, we conquer countries, occupy them, and then exploit them. Just like England did to Africa, Portugal and Spain did to South America, France did to Lebannon and Southeast Asia, Russia did to Eastern Europe, China did to Tibet . . .

Imperialism on the part of the US is the most ignorant accusation I've ever heard. If the US had any imperialist tendencies, we could take over the world. We haven't. We liberate, stabilize, and then turn the countries we defeat back over to the native population. We even restore the economies and infrastructure of these countries before we leave.

Nice try, but no cigar Tanabear.

The Plan
The Republican Plan:

Stabilize the country.
Install a constitutional democracy.
Train the Iraqi's to defend themselves.
Go home after we have accomplished all of the above and not before.
Honor our commitments.
That's the Republican plan.

Contrast this with the Democratic plan.
Blame George Bush and defend the feckless Clinton.
Bail out of our commitment to the Iraqi people through "Redeployment".
Fight the war with our hands tied behind our backs.
Give our enemies the same constitutional protections we give American citizens.
Negotiate with people that only want our death or conversion to Islam.

Pick one you simpletons.

"the plan"
So it's the same everywhere?

Here in Kansas Nancy Boyda is attempting to take Jim Ryan's seat and return it to the democrats. The seat was solidly democrat until Jim Slattery went against several promises and voted for Clinton’s “assault weapons” ban. Everywhere there are signs begging people to "Vote for Change". Not being particularly happy with Ryan I spent some time listening to Boyda field softball questions on Kansas State's college radio program - I came away completely shocked.

After giving several nonanswers to the illegal alien questions and the gas price question hey finally asked her what she would do about Iraq. She rambled on for about 3 minutes but the summary of her answer was this "George H Bush has assembled some of his former cabinet staff including James Baker and Lawrence Eagleburger to study the issue of Iraq. What they recommend is what I will vote for."

I couldn't believe that the woman that has received millions of dollars from the DNC would answer one of the most important political questions with "I'll do what the president's daddy tells me to do". But apparently her plan is more defined then the rest of the democrat party's.

It doesn't matter.
Now that the dems have been handed the Foley scandal and the new book by Woodward, they do not need a plan for Iraq in order to win in November. Which is a shame, because there is so much at stake.

Partition? Peace? Please.
This partition plan is ridiculous. This sort of thinking fostered a years-long civil war in the former Yugoslavia, and it will only foster continued civil war in Iraq.

Partitioning was the easy solution at the end of World War I, that allowed Europe to exit their colonial holdings in the Middle East with easy consciences. The problems it ignored didn't go away, and they still lie behind all of the issues we are dealing with in the region now.

Why won't partitioning work in Iraq? Because, aside from the Kurdish north, there is no easy division of Iraq between Shia and Sunni. There are numerous areas in contention, and if you people truly believe that they can't be brought peacefully to the bargaining table to form a working coalition government, what on EARTH makes you think they can agree to a division of oil-rich lands?

"Partition for Peace" is a coward's way of avoiding paying the credit card bill now; better, the reasoning goes, to wait a while until interest charges build up and we can deal with it later, when it's someone else's problem. This is childish thinking; grown-ups step up to the plate NOW, to make sure that those who come after have a less complicated problem to deal with.

For another example of how well this sort of partitioning works, go ask the Hindus and Muslims who are STILL trying to figure out how to divvy up Kashmir province, 60 years and more after Mohammed Jinna and others decided that, rather than solve the thorny problem of how Muslims and Hindus might find a way to co-exist peacefully, they would punt and go with a nice, easy partition plan.

Kimberly
In the midst of talking about the Republicans' plan for Iraq, you blather, "Meanwhile, we find out that Condi not only waved off Richard Clarke's and Sandy Berger's attempts to alert this administration to the threat of al qaeda, but she also dismissed the dire warnings of Tenet and Black. "

Huh? What are you talking about? I thought that Iraq had nothing to do with al Qaeda and 9/11? You yourself have said so many times.

Even more amazing
Kimberly writes: "Staying the course" and "winning" do not add up to a "strategy". What does it take to win? Let's hear more from those who caused this chaos - and please, let's make it BEFORE the election, shall we?
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I agree let's dust off John Kerry's plan and.... Oh, no one knows what it is? Ok let’s ask him.... He says you have to elect him president to hear it? Does he realize that the presidential election is two years away? So he's good with soldiers dieing until then? OOOOOKAAAAY then.

Let's get behind Harry Reid and follow his... Oh, no one knows what his plan is? He says you have to elect democrats to a majority in both the House and Senate to hear it?

Are you honestly telling me that the democrats can leak state secrets to the front page of the NY Times but manage to keep all their plans on how to win/solve the war in Iraq secret?

Fergus....
Kimberly comes armed with many irrelevent talking points, most likely from moveon.org or the dailykos or something. The strategy is to fling so much mud in different directions that you don't even know what to respond to. Upon further investigation most of her accusations turn out to be without much substance, but who wants to bother to further investigate in the first place? ;)

How ridiculous
To even contemplate that anyone in the Bush Administration would have ignored a "certain" threat against the U.S. is as stupid as the conspiracy theorists. They had no specific information or detail. It would be like saying, "rain is due to fall on New York". Really? Where in NY? When in NY? How much? Is it dangerous rain? Is it soft rain?

You get how stupid that logic is? Come on, I know some of you hate the Republicans, but engage your brain for a moment. The only reason people would suggest that the Administration ignoredd all this is to further the conspiracy theories about big oil, blah, blah, blah. You're insane.

And another thing...
Many posts here have it right, where is the step-by-step plan of the Democrats to WIN THE WAR ON TERROR?

Concrete.

Specific.

Outlined.

Out there for all to see and judge.

*crickets chirping*

The absurd notion that we should "vote them in and then they'll tell us" is worse than any traveling barker would even suggest. It's so incredibly laughable! Anyone who buys into this should not vote - you're an idiot and we need to make sure that you don't procreate!

I see....
"Drive-by Kim" swooped in again, dropped a load of drivel, and swooped out.

I have yet to see her engage in a sustained back and forth debate. Well... Soros probably doesn't pay her by the hour, probably pays her by the number of different conservative articles she can "drive-by"!

Repubs & Iraq
The Democrats don't have to do anything but let the Republicans twist in the breeze as the situations in both Iraq and Afghanistan get worse.
By 2008 'stay the course' will be on a par with 'take my wife, please'.

Lydia
Of course Tanabear can not demonstrate that Bush lied to get us into Iraq, because the notion that Bush lied is in itself a lie--a lie that has been incessantly repeated by the left and repeatedly debunked by people who know what they're talking about.

Kimberly, the magnitude of your ignorance is stunning but not surprising...The Bush Administartion has outlined its strategy in Iraq in numerous speeches, interviewes, prepared statements, and position papers. The fact that you continue to regurgitate the lie that Bush has no strategy is unbecoming of anyone who wants to be taken seriously. This isn't daily kos or mediamatters...On this forum, you're expected to put forth logical and cogent arguments, not mindless drivel.

Dems and Iraq
One would think that five years after September 11 and three years after the War in Iraq began the Democrat Party would have some kind of a plan. They do. Bash Bush about everything he thinks, says and does. Make hay out of Foley, Delay, Abramoff, Pflame and anything their comrades (I mean that in the Socialist sense)of the US Pravda can print and talk about and obstruct every possible way of keeping us safe, secure and one nation under God. They have been so busy that there hasn't been time to think about solutions. Besides solutions are not part of their ideology or playbook.

Agreed
scooternyc writes: The absurd notion that we should "vote them in and then they'll tell us" is worse than any traveling barker would even suggest. It's so incredibly laughable!
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I glad to see I'm not the only one that questions the ideals of people that model their political aspirations after Monte Hall's "Let’s make a Deal!"

Primus: LOL
Ever since you made that observation about Kimberly a few days ago, I've been paying attention, and you are right!

That's exactly what she does.

She swoops in like a pigeon in Times Square, drops her load of guano, and disappears back to the rooftops.

That is soooooo funny.

She probably considers herself the Stealth Bomber of liberalism.

Iraq War: A Bush/Rumsfield Embarrassment
Prez Bush, Donald Rumsfield and the Neo-cons thought this Iraq war would be a walkover and yet here we are five years later and it's not even close to being over.

It's downright embarrassing that Bush/Rumsfield, with the worlds most powerful military, with its high tech weaponry and intelligence capapbilites cannot defeat a ragtag bunch of insurgents armed with antiquated/improvised weapons and people bombs. Whats even more revealing is repubs/cons have absolutely "zero faith" that the Iraq Army and people can defeat these people on their own.

Whats even more ridiculous the repub mantra that

"we fight them over there so we dont have to fight them here in the U.S."

The FBI and the CIA have both testified before Congress that terrorist cells are here in the U.S. as we speak waiting and planning further attacks on the domestic U.S. If that is so, then I would want Prez Bush and co. to explain how "staying the course and winning in Iraq" is going to stop another attack on the domestic U.S.

So repubs we are so much "safer" with Bush and company in office because of supposed "weakness"
on National Security by the democrats?

an odd thing happened a few weeks ago and I have never seen it reported in Town Hall or any of the more conservative websites..

There was breech of security at the U.S. Capitol in which a armed gunman crashed thru barriers outside the building ,entered and got deep into the U.S. Capitol before he was apprehended. This dispite congress spending millions to fortify the building against attacks. Repubs need to stop and think about this. Supposed this guy had beena suicide bomber?

Furthermore there are millions of legal and illegal aliens in this country as we speak.
Do you repubs/cons truly beleive that all of these people are here with good intentions?
I think not.

It is totally realistic to believe that among these millions of aliens lie people who are hostile to the U.S. and are planning to execute much more damaging horrific coordinated attacks, within the domestic U.S. while Bush and company dither away in Iraq.

Republicans need to wake up, the threat isnt in Iraq. Its right here among us.

BrianR
Oh for a conservative 14 year old kid with a pellet gun. bye bye pidgeon

tanabear again... Proven?
That is total B.S. tanabear. Show me and everyone else here WHERE it is proven. There is no proof, only allegations, and if you'd try something the educated among us call "reading" (see "english") you'd find that out. If you've got proof (tangible proof that would stand up in court, not your favorite liberal blog, or some book by an improvident journalist), let's see it, bigmouth. Post the links or references here and if I find it plausible, I'll change my tune.

Left Angle
has just inadvertantly articulated (I use the word very loosely) a point of view I have not yet come across. He is arguing (albeit, unbeknownst to himself) that our military leadership (i.e. generals on the ground) is incompetent because they have not been abble to defeat the insurgency in Iraq. In analyzing the competency and prowess of our military, one has to first and foremost look at Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, both of which were by any objective standards unequivocal and unprecedented successes. Truly brilliant military victories...Does the military's inability so far to put down the insurgency take away from these vicories and suggest that our military is somehow weak or inept? No, of course not. We have not lost a SINGLE battle against the insurgents. Not one. Insurgencies tend to persist for many years and are extremely difficult to completely subdue in a short period of time (and yes, 3 years is a very short period). Hence, it is not at all surprising that our military has not fully eradicated the Iraqi insurgency...

Question for Left Angle
You seem unhappy that the terrorists haven't been crushed. Me too. All you have to do now is explain how all the things that the Democrats want to do would help:
- Release all the prisoners from Gitmo.
- "Redeploy" to Okinawa.
- Stop tapping phone lines of suspected terrorists.
- Extend more rights to terrorist prisoners.
- Try to not make Islamic militants angry.
- Focus on getting bin Laden, while not making Islamic militants angry.

...

In response to others:

Democrats voted to invade another country for one of three reasons:
1) they were lied to
2) they believed it was the best course of action at the time and are now backtracking, or
3) for political expedediency and out of political cowardice

Anyone who digs deeper than the slogans, knows that number one is false. How COULD it be true? Democrats had access to all the same intelligence reports as did the President. Even a true believer like tanabear can't offer anything more than incoherent spew. So, you can start dividing Democrats into the other two buckets.

...

In response to stories about Tenet:

You may remember when a small plane crashed on the White House lawn. The joke around the Administration was "that it was Tenet, still trying to get an appointment to see Clinton."

...

David, I like your point that "...at whatever point we resist, they will have their greatest terrorist recruitment tool..."

Reasons for war
Whether there were lies is not as important as how the public interpreted the reasons for the war. There was an implied connection between Saddam Hussein and the terrorists which had very little truth to it. But the American public took that to mean there was a direct connection between Iraq and 9/11. The most prominent connection between Hussein and terrorism was his paying the families of suicide bombers in Palestine for killing Israelis but this was not connected to 9/11. The belief in WMD was not exactly lying but bad intelligence or even intelligence on demand as some say, pressure was put on the CIA to say there was evidence of WMD. The big mistake in going into Iraq was timing. Bush was in a big hurry to attack Iraq and nothing suggested there was an imminent danger from Iraq which was said outright in his speech before the war that Iraq was a threat to our security. This was not true, whether a lie or bad judgegment. It just was not true and the media did not pick up on it or were afraid to challenge this allegation until after the war was well underway. I personally think many in the media were anxious to cash in on journalists embedded with the military, a reporter's dream. A chess player learns that he only has so many offensive weapons and should not be rash on how and where he puts them and commits them. This is part of the strategy of the game good preparation before attacking. Bush had no concept of strategy, just tactics so he achieved a quick tactical victory but left himself vulnerable to a strategic defeat. So attacking Iraq was not out of the question but the rush to do it was a mistake. We should have nailed down Afghanistan and waited on Iraq as long as Saddam Hussein allowed the UN inspectors to stay there. If he tried to evict him then war should have been considered. And in that situation we might have had more allies. In the long run and the long run is important in a global war, we will need allies to defeat radical Islam because they are all over the world and we need the cooperation of many nations to win. We cannot do it alone as there are some 6 billion people in the world and we need their help since radical Islam is everwhere among them. The Democrats can do very little now that we have fluffed Iraq. We never went in with enough force or with plans for after the initial tactical victory or at least good enough plans so now the situation is very dire and neither Democrats or Republicans can do much to remedy it. We have not lost the war just the peace if it ever comes. Iraq will eventually be an Islamic Republic. It will never be a true Democracy. We cannot remedy hundreds of years of rivarly and hatred between Shias and Sunnis.

Left Angle - Patches out of Re-hab?

I didn't realize Patrick Kennedy was out of re-hab. (LOL)

Armed gunmen aren't the only one's running barricades in Washington these days. If we can’t keep the Democrats in Congress from crashing checkpoints (McKinney too) what chance do we have against illegal immigrants’ and other perps? Perhaps the Dems could make a small contribution towards national defense by setting a good example. Hmmm... Just a thought.

By the way... What is the Democrats’ consensus plan for fighting the WOT?

Why do they hate us?
Your article misses the point. The point is, WHY do the terrorists hate us? You seem to assume that they always have hated us and always will hate us. This isn't so, they only starting hating us after WWII when Isreal was established.

I believe that if we did not so shamefully favor Isreal on EVERY diplomatic issue and if we genuinely pushed for some sort of solution to the Palestinean problem then there would be a lot less terrorists, and they wouldn't hate us so much.

Now would that be a bad thing for Republicans or for Democrats? Probably for Republicans cause all they can seem to talk about these days is terrorism. We actually have a better chance of getting killed by a gang-banger than by a terrorist - but why talk about that?

rubert
I don't think you can say we always favor Isreal. There were some MAJOR concessions granted by Isreal at the behest of the USA to make the 'road map for peace' work. I Think that answers your argument.... Note to self: never use never, always, or every in an argumnet....:-)

Allies
Since when did we adopt this philosophy (you don't leave allies twisting in the wind)? We got rich trading with Britain (but staying neutral until Pearl Harbor was bombed) in WWII. We didn't intervene in Vietnam until AFTER the French got their butts kicked out of there. So I'm not sure foreign intervention has ever been much of a US policy - especially for traditional Republicans.

Regardless, it is still beside the point. The point being, that until there is some sort of solution in Palestine, radical muslims will hate us. We either live with that and accept that terrorism will be a part of our lives, or we work to solve it though some sort of Middle East peace process. Cause for every terrorist we kill, two more decide to take up arms against us.

note to self....
spell check

myshade
Sorry about the "every" and "never" comments. Over-generalisation is a weakness of mine sometimes.

Mountain Rose
I'm not advocating pushing Isreal into the sea. There are actually a lot of Isrealis and Palestineans who want peace. All I am advocating is giving them a voice and working at a bit of diplomacy.

Further, your analogies are pretty bad. Isreal is no "little kid". It is armed to the teeth with the latest in US war technology. And its standing army is perhaps the toughest in the world. And Palestineans are not "big kids". They are armed with stones, TNT, nails, and at best Katuyasha rockets, but I would argue that the rockets are Lebanese, not Palestinian. Nor are all Palestineans (or even the majority of them), "bloodthirsty savages".

Wrong
Rupert writes: Since when did we adopt this philosophy (you don't leave allies twisting in the wind)? We got rich trading with Britain (but staying neutral until Pearl Harbor was bombed) in WWII. We didn't intervene in Vietnam until AFTER the French got their butts kicked out of there.
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The US Navy was heavily involved in the Atlantic for all of 1941 and had committed several acts of war against Germany. France wasn't an ally, they were a dependant.

NRAlifer
Arabs, as the New York Times review noted, appear in Uris's novels as murderers, thieves and rapists. They are lazy, cowardly, boastful, deceitful, untrustworthy, backbiting, and lustful. The Haj presents the Zionist interpretation of the Palestinian people. As an instance of bias and bigotry, it is hard to beat.

Your comments above pretty much state that you hate Arabs in general. It would therefore be impossible to discuss this issue intelligently with you.

Bear
By your arguments then, everybody, dems included, lied, mis-lead or otherwise "made stuff up". The same sound bite you quote Cheney as having made are mimicked repeatedly by dems in the lead up.

That would lead one to the conclusion that dems were:

a) Erroneous in reading the same intelligence, in exactly the same way as the administration.

b) Not so sure, but decided to parrot the Bush line out of political expediency.

c) Knew it was not true, and went along with the lie, and actively propped it up in many cases.

"a" is a mistake, and therefore not intentional. That would mean however, that the Bush administration were not intentionally misleading either (unless you apply a painfully obvious double standard.

"b" would indicate that dems would put getting re-elected above the national good. Not too many dissenting voices during this time period, as I recall. Not comforting to think people who would do this could be returned to power.

"c' indicates complicity, in which case the dems are at least as responsible for Iraq as the admin.

Sorry - your arguments seem too simplistic. I think dems and pubs would do well to remeber the old adage of hanging together, or surely hanging separately.


Tenebear
See above...

Your contention that there was no evidence that Saddam had WMD is stunningly ignorant, even for you.

Every single intelligence agency in the world believed Saddam had WMD. Were they all lying? It's a simple question the answer to which debunks your assertion.

Your Hans Blix quote is taken completely out of context. Hans Blix acknowledged that Saddam was in fact continuing to play a cat and mouse game with him by not giving him unfettered access to well known WMD sites. This had been been Saddam's game since the 1991 cease fire. Because he did not get full access, Hans Blix had no corroborating evidence that Saddam possessed stock piles of WMD. The problem for Saddam was that the burden of proof was on him. UN resolution 1441 required Saddam to PROVE that his WMD had in fact been destroyed by indicating when and where they had been destroyed. Saddam FAILED to meet that burden.

There was absolutely no reason to believe that Saddam did not continue to possess WMD. He had USED WMD in the early ninneties, was in material breach of 18 UN resolutions, and continued to defy the weapons inspectors. Again, the notion that Bush lied is in itself a lie.

Repub/Con Desperation At Midterms 06
Republicans are becoming increasingly frustrated and desperate as midterms Nov. 06 approach.
They have an unpopular President, unpopular War in Iraq, and equally unpopular Congress presiding over an electorate in which the majority is increasingly showing its displeasure with their performance and leadership. Their dismal poll numbers have stubbornly remained in the 30-40% braket no matter what they have tried
to do recently.

In the last two months Prez Bush has tried mightly to shift the topic from the negatives of Iraq to the supposed positives and strength of the GOP on National Security a winning theme for him and republicans in midterms 2002 and his reelection in 2004. What is the Democrats plan for Iraq and the GWOT they ask desperately?
The Democrats simply are keeping quiet or talking in vague terms, knowing full well that whatever "plan" they put out would be "red meat"
for the repubs/cons rip apart to prove "weakness". This frustrates them to no end as the dems let the cook in their own stew. Dems would do themselves a favor such as in this forum on not engaging Repubs/Cons in this redundant conversation.

And now they have this sex/homosexual scandal of Con. Foley and underage pages that has the right wing Christian Coalition up in arms and calling for the resignation of Speaker Hastert. This has scuttled what little momentum Bush/Rove had generated lately.

The dems are positioned to take one or both of the houses of Congress, which would essentially make Bush a lame duck for the rest of his term which is the repubs worst nightmare:

a return to divided goverment.

Thrasybulus: thats exactly the point
I was trying to make and no i didnt stumble on it. lol

I truly believe that the insurgents leaders are strategically outmanuevering the U.S. military leaders in Iraq despite the fact that their weaponry is inferior. I think that the americans are fighting a coventinal war against a unconventional opponent and they are getting beat badly at it. I believe the term is "asymetric warfare".

That is why democrats are saying its time to change tactics and a new direction because what bush and his generals are trying isnt working.

Left Angle/ Beer Guzzling Couch Potatoes
Left Angle writes:

"The Democrats simply are keeping quiet or talking in vague terms, knowing full well that whatever "plan" they put out would be "red meat"
for the repubs/cons rip apart to prove "weakness". This frustrates them to no end as the dems let the cook in their own stew. Dems would do themselves a favor such as in this forum on not engaging Repubs/Cons in this redundant conversation."

It's anything but frustration. What it is is the difference of being a player or being a beer-guzzling couch potato -- hollering at the guys on the tube who are doing all the heavy lifting. Come mid-terms we'll see if the public wants to continue with the pros or join the peanut gallery.

NO PLAN. Don't remember whoo said it but "A man without a plan is not a man."



Blood for oil please!
Notice how you no longer hear "blood for oil" charges? Or the "Chimpy McBushitler Flyboy Ace did it for Halliburton and cheap oil"? Last year as I enjoyed the $3/gallon gasoline our imperial war for oil got me, I came to the conclusion that I wish the liberals had been right. If we were evil imperialist oil-mongers, maybe I could drive to work without a second mortgage.

Seriously, it amuses me to see the constantly shifting, contradictory (and often nonsensical) evil ulterior motives and consequences... Saddam is secular and has nothing to do with terrorists, but deposing him has riled up the terrorists in Iraq where there were no terrorists.... We're fighting for cheap oil so we can drive up world oil prices for Halliburton... Bush squandered our goodwill around the world by attacking Iraq, but Afghanistan was ok, except it was a quagmire just like Vietnam and we should not be involved in nation building with the evil northern alliance, but the world is ok with that until Iraq, or something... as long as as you turn off short term memory, the liberal arguments make a lot of sense (well, not really...), but recall from one argument to the next and it starts to sound kind of absurd.

Tenabear
Good job dodging points that refute your fallacious allegations. Well done. No one "counterfeited" intelligence. That is a demonstrable lie.

Left Angle:

The Democrats have no vision and no strategy for Iraq (or the War on Terror, the economy, etc.). The fact that you acknowledge that they're too scared to offer a plan because of what the mean Republicans will do makes me chuckle. The irony is too rich.

Your point about "assymetric warfare" is not well taken, because you clearly know nothing about defense policy. Rumsfeld has done an extraordinary job transforming our military into a force that is suitable for assymetric warfare. Read up son, read up.

Repubs believe their OWN hype..lmao
the dems have no plan:

if you believe that nonsense you are a complete fool or idiot or both. if dems get even one house of congress, believe me they will hit the ground running with their "plan"...

rumsfield is doing a great job:

then why are even repubs calling for him to be fired? why cant they defeat a ragtag bunch of
insurgents with inferior weapons?

Dems plan for Iraq
The one Iraq war vet I know is life-long republican, and he hates what has been done to the military by the civilian Bush administration. The number of resigned and retired military leaders that has called foul on Rumsfeld, Feith,Bremer, and Wolfkowitz far outnumbers the supporters. History has shown that most military votes Republican, so one can't really say they are all a bunch of bush-bashers because of politics, they are slamming the way the war has been run because it is wrong, and it is their soldiers that are paying the price.
And for the poster who said every nations intell agencies said there was WMD's, where do you get your info from? If that were true than you would have had France, Germany, Canada, Russia, Belgium, etc... joining the so-called coalition of the willing, instead of heavy weights like Micronesia, Paupau, Tonga, etc...

tanabear and Left Angle
tanabear
Since Bush does not know anything, he is incapable of lying for that reason.
You do realize that Bush is a Yale grad how can someone who knows nothing graduate such a fine school, and dont say something stupid like daddy paid for the grades that would be way to easy to prove.

Left Angle
The insugency is not as wide spread as you think mostly focused in the Bagdad area so your saying that an insugency limited to just the capital city is out manuevering the US Military means you dont know what your talking about. And no i dont think we are getting beaten badly at it, h*ll our solders are having a hard time fighting when they never know when they might get charged for murder killing insurgents. Also you this iraqi insugency is not a very good one, for one thing they attack there own citizens not making themselves very popluar, they have no real goal, there are several rival factions that fight among them selves. while i agree the admin could have done a better inital planning (not dissovling the standing iraqi army, arresting or shooting looters in bagdad).
As for your assertion of a better way of doing things i would love to hear what the dems are saying we should do other than cuting and run-- oops i mean redeploying our troops

hmm
i though that joe wilson guy said he found proof of the iraq/ niger uranium thing (must find a copy of that book)

Left Angle - No Plan

Left Angle writes, "[T]he dems have no plan:
if you believe that nonsense you are a complete fool or idiot or both. if dems get even one house of congress, believe me they will hit the ground running with their "plan"...

Please, educate us as to "their (the Democrats') plan?" The fact that you can't, despite the fact that you are blindly following the Democratic pols, makes you what, enlightened??? Who are the fools, idiots or both.

A man without a plan is still, a man without a plan, and sadly, not a man. Animals are fitted with blinders, reins and saddles.

I suggest you might want to find out what the plan is. That is, if you want to make an informed decision at the polls. Otherwise, you're just like any other jacka$$.

Canuck Cate - Military Leaders

Canuck Cate writes, "The number of resigned and retired military leaders that has called foul on Rumsfeld, Feith,Bremer, and Wolfkowitz far outnumbers the supporters."

Dear Cate,
Care to provide some supporting documentaton for your statement?

The Democrats & Iraq
Frankly folks, if Bill Clinton had taken up Sudan on it's offer of Osuna Bin Laden and the Clinton administration had put more teeth into getting the people who bombed the World Trade Center the first time, we might not have had to go into Iraq or experienced 9/11, but at least we would have possibly had a better chance of defeating the terrorist network so that the Iraqi citizens could have had a better chance to breathe from of Saddam Hussein's bloody rule! The democrats, save a few Hawks, have no clue on what to do now or then! Vote freedom for Iraq and keep the Democrats in the minority!

Rupert
So the Mohammedans have only disliked us since 1948? Perhaps you could explain to us why John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and a John Q. Adams had so much to say about the Islamofacists?

some background
Cat trapper says
So the Mohammedans have only disliked us since 1948? Perhaps you could explain to us why John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and a John Q. Adams had so much to say about the Islamofacists?

if i understand right he is talking about the barbary pirates of the north african coast of the mediteraniean sea. They were muslim and were notorious for attacking western ships due to the fact that they were muslim and the western merchants were not. Need to read that book i have on them again if i can find it, but to make it short they are the reason we have a navy in this country.

Rupert writes:

“WHY do the terrorists hate us? You seem to assume that they always have hated us and always will hate us. This isn't so, they only starting hating us after WWII when Isreal was established.”
.
.
.
I can’t believe I am responding to Rupert. I figured someone would correct his timetable. Oh well, I’ll bite.

I will make an assumption first. You mentioned terrorists, I feel you mean Muslim terrorists. After all I do not feel that the IRA hates Americans and so it does not bomb us. Is my assumption correct?

I believe it was around 1802 that President Thomas Jefferson ordered the US Navy and marines to Tripoli top engage pirates of the Berbery coast who were attacking our merchant ships in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. That was way before Israel was established in 1947. It is also to that referenced engagement that the Marine Corp Hymn says “to the shores of Tripoli.” So, Rupert, you see the Muslims hated us for over 180 years, not the mere 60 years you claim. See article below:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~neresour/OLLibrary/Montgomery/mahp191.htm


Dems and Iraq
The opportunity to have us withdraw from Iraq was voted on and the dems overwhelmingly voted to stay. We must stay the course or suffer defeat. The problem we in this country have is that we do not have any concept of losing freedom and territory to an enemy. Many of us believe that nothing like that can happen to us inside the USA.

Plan
It is immaterial whether the Democrats have a "plan" for Iraq because a plan is only usable when the situation can be controlled. Neither George Bush nor anyone else in the United States has any degree of control over the events in Iraq. We cannot stop the insurgency. We cannot stop the fact that most Iraqis want us out. We cannot create a modern, harmonious democracy out of a splintered nation. So all this talk of a "plan" is just partisan bickering.

Does President Bush have a plan other than "stay the cousre?" To call this a plan is nonsensical. That would like saying my retirement plan is to put a bunch of coins into the slot machines in Vegas and hope to win a million dollars. That is not a "plan," but a hope -- or more precisely a pipe dream.

President Bush keeps gambling billions of dollars and countless American lives on an outcome that he cannot control and one that continues to worsen everyday.

The best thing to do right now would be to leave Iraq and hope for the best. Right now "hope" is just digging graves for more Americans.




Nonsense on stilts?
David Limbaugh just defined the new and improved casus belli for the war in Iraq:

"I don't believe our invasion will set us back in the long run unless we withdraw before Iraq can defend itself."

This statement or argument or whatever you want to call it is very revealing because it shows the absurdity of keeping US troops in Iraq. We don't have troops in Iraq to protect our national security but to function as a provisional Iraqi police force. Also, the implied definition of victory is not when the United States defeats the "terrorists" but when the Iraqis are able to defend their country from the "terrorists."

So we're not really in a battle with the "terrorists" but just a holding action until the Iraqis are capable of being in a holding action against the "terrorists."

Victory isn't winning but handing off the security baton to the Iraqis. But if the United States is the best fighting force in the world and we cannot defeat the "terrorists" then how long will it until the Iraqis can?

The casus bellis for the Iraq war have gone through huge quantum shifts. First it was about preventing a mushroom cloud from sprouting over a US city and now it's about trying to train Iraqis and functioning as a provisional Iraqi police.

The war has no justification and Limbaugh reveals himself as Bush cult extraordinaire.






Boortz!
Neal Boortz had a rather good comment on Iraq encouraging new terrorists. He equated it to the Civil rights movement here in the U.S. during the 50's and 60's, saying that one could argue that at that time, the civil rights movement led to more clansmen and violence against blacks. This of course doesn't nullify the fact that it was the right thing to do.

shawn
That's a dumb analogy, but rather typical of Boortz. The purpose of the War on Terror is to eliminate the threat terrorists pose to this country. If our war in Iraq has had the effect of creating a larger pool of terrorists then not only is it an unnecessary war but one that is actively endangering America.

So I guess the war on poverty can now be declared a success since it increased poverty.

David Limbaugh: Fraud
Mr Limbaugh,

You're a bald-faced liar--a criminal fraud--in the world of politically opinionated journalism.

You and your cronies are championing the political paradigmatic shift from Democracy to Authoritarian Theocracy of this great country that I, and our forefathers so proudly established.

Your days are numbered as a right wing nutjob pundit. You will go down in flames like the so-called "leaders"--the fascist, neocon junta--whose tyrannical end-times battle cries you so shamelessly rally behind.

Prepare for the next revolution. Prepare to see the first ever coup d'etat and criminal conviction of an American President and his felonious crony-ridden administration.

Prepare to go down with them.

It won't be long before your daily discourse entails less and less of the hackneyed, meaningless cliches such as "cut and run liberals"; as they will soon be replaced with more useful and insightful slogans such as "Don't drop the soap!"



I, Abe Lincoln, approve of this message.

Red Tooth and abe lincoln
Red Tooth writes
That's a dumb analogy, but rather typical of Boortz. The purpose of the War on Terror is to eliminate the threat terrorists pose to this country. If our war in Iraq has had the effect of creating a larger pool of terrorists then not only is it an unnecessary war but one that is actively endangering America.
How is that a dumb analogy i think it is a good one becvause it is a very similar struggle both were againsts radical hatred and i think both will suceed. I take it you miss the part of that leaked report that says if we suceed in Iraq then the terrorist will lose support so in fact it is fufilling the purpose of the War on Terror

Abe Lincoln
David Limbaugh: Fraud
Mr Limbaugh,

You're a bald-faced liar--a criminal fraud--in the world of politically opinionated journalism.

-can you please provide some evidnce cuz name calling just does not give you much crediablity

You and your cronies are championing the political paradigmatic shift from Democracy to Authoritarian Theocracy of this great country that I, and our forefathers so proudly established.

-How the heck did you get that from this article i think you may just not like Mr Limbaugh.

Your days are numbered as a right wing nutjob pundit. You will go down in flames like the so-called "leaders"--the fascist, neocon junta--whose tyrannical end-times battle cries you so shamelessly rally behind.

-Sounds like a threat to me and again with more of the name calling

Prepare for the next revolution. Prepare to see the first ever coup d'etat and criminal conviction of an American President and his felonious crony-ridden administration.

-Hmm i dont know but i think that it might be a crime to write somthing like this. Also can you please give me some evidence of Pres Bushes Crimes or can you at least name the crimes.

Prepare to go down with them.

-over my dead body

It won't be long before your daily discourse entails less and less of the hackneyed, meaningless cliches such as "cut and run liberals"; as they will soon be replaced with more useful and insightful slogans such as "Don't drop the soap!"

-umm well if you can tell me what the liberals want to do instead of you threating to over throw the amearican goverment i might take you seriously

I, Abe Lincoln, approve of this message.

-i think you need to drink less coffee

Iraq
I agree lets debate Iraq every day. Lets start with the Downing street memo then we can move on the right wing hypocrite media that enabled the administration of liar bush to lie to the country to justify invading Iraq. You know people like you and that waste of sperm brother of yours. From there we can talk about how the administration of liar ignored the advice of the profesional soldiers on the size of force required to occupy Iraq leading to the needless deaths of countless Americans. Yes by all means lets debate Iraq
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