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Friday, September 22, 2006
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Playing in to the enemy's hands
by David Limbaugh
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Why do politicians who know better portray certain CIA interrogation techniques used to extract life-saving information from enemy detainees as torture?

A cottage industry has developed among disgruntled politicians to suggest America is as barbaric as Islamic extremists. I'm not referring to Rosie O'Donnell, who is not a politician and who limited her criticisms to Christian fundamentalists, as if she has an earthly clue of which or whom she speaks.

I'm talking about former President Clinton, Sens. McCain, Graham and Warner, and many Democrats who are feeding into this third-world hate frenzy against the United States. Is it truly their intention to play into the hands of America-despising tyrants like Venezuela's Hugo Chavez and Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?

On National Public Radio, Clinton said it would be unnecessary and wrong to give broad approval to torture. Well, yes, Mr. Clinton, but since no one in the Bush administration or Congress is considering that, why do you insist on framing the debate in those terms?

Clinton, who is widely reputed to have a large, discriminating mind, knows that President Bush's effort to obtain congressional clarification of the interrogation practices permitted under language contained in Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions is not giving broad approval to torture.

Indeed, Mr. Bush believes these interrogation practices are already authorized by the Conventions but wants Congress expressly to concur with his opinion. Bush has warned that in the absence of such clarification, the program might have to be terminated because interrogators dedicated to saving American lives are at risk of liability.

Given the semantic games Clinton and other war critics play, who could reasonably argue that clarification isn't needed, especially given the regrettable Supreme Court decision that the Geneva Conventions apply to our terrorist enemies? But opponents of the measure, like Sens. McCain and Graham, insist that it would be a dangerous precedent to tinker with the language, which supposedly hasn't been modified in decades.

If we dare to take such action, just imagine what our present or future enemies might do to our prisoners of war! They would be free to reinterpret the language to mistreat our prisoners, who they would otherwise doubtlessly pamper.

Sen. Graham also expressed concern that if the United States conducts secret military trials and doesn't show the terrorist-defendants all the evidence used against them, our enemies' tribunals might do likewise in the future, which would cause great outrage in the United States.

It's hard to take Sen. Graham seriously here if he really believes our enemies -- terrorists, North Koreans and other totalitarian states -- will even bother with trials for American soldiers they capture. Besides, if they did conduct sham trials, what difference would it make if they didn't show the soldiers and their fake attorneys the fake evidence they would use to convict them of fake war crimes in fake show-trials before actually beheading them?

Sen. Graham can be so refreshingly sober sometimes, but what in the world is wrong with his thinking on this? Perhaps he's once again under the spell of John McCain, whose credibility on the war took a dramatic nosedive a few weeks ago when he falsely accused President Bush of having misrepresented the costs and duration of the war in Iraq. Nothing could explain such a gratuitous stab in the back other than McCain's insatiable quest for mainstream media adulation and the office of the presidency, or, perhaps, revenge.

It is outrageous and damaging to the national interest for these "maverick" Republicans to align with Democrats in equating American interrogation practices designed to save innocent lives to the conduct of terrorists who target innocent lives.

The interrogation practices, which are not torture and which have already yielded life-saving fruit, are -- in the words of President Bush -- essential to winning the war on terror. In case the interrogation opponents haven't yet figured it out, we cannot successfully prosecute this war without maximizing our intelligence efforts, including these tough interrogation practices. Why must some politicians insist on tying our hands in this war, all on the false premise that by so doing we'll fare better in world popularity contests and thereby spawn fewer terrorists? Their recklessness is breathtaking.

Shame on those politicians and their mainstream media echo chambers for playing into the hands of our enemies.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Great article!
I have a suspicion that the answer lies in a point made by a guy named Thomas Paine. In Common Sense he wondered how a free people could possibly entrust absolute (or near) in a monarch who couldn't help but be overwhelmed by the demands of his position.

McCain is a good person in a bad position. He is not bright enough to balance the different demands of his constituents or his own conscience so he hides in a cave that he thinks he understands, torture.

Your point is well taken that by making a big deal out of "abuse" he undermines the USA, for which he ironically, spent time being tortured by a true tyranny. Goes to show you that heroism isn't necessarily a qualification for wielding power.

Only one nit to pick
I agree that the Supreme Court was way off base in awarding Geneva Convention rights to these terrorists, that the interrogation practices have "yielded life-saving fruit", and that their targetted use is essential to winning the war on terror. But why must you claim that none of these techniques constitutes torture? It's a damned site more civilized than what the terrorists do to our people, but if water-boarding is not torture, what is it? It is a necessary interrogation technique against people whom we know to be terrorist leaders, but let's remain straight about what it is.

McCain
is a media hound and has been for years. McCain saying or doing ANYTHING that goes against his party get him rave reviews from the MSM every time.

I NEVER trust his motives anymore. He reminds me of Bill Clinton that way.

By the way
Can anyone here answer a question I have? A fellow poster of ours (Anti-Partisan_Righty) over on Ann Coulter's column made a fool of himself yesterday with some very unethical behavior.

When I busted him on it, his post soon disappeared. I didn't know you could do that. How do you make your post disappear???

Buck2
It would be nice to have a credible alternative to the Republican Party to fall back on just in case. If your guys 1) were more interested in working up a coherent, history-cognizant plan to protect this country, 2) were less vicious about trying to drum every strong America candidate out of their party, and 3) didn't launch into foaming anti-Bush rants at every drop of a hat, they might qualify as such an alternative.

McCain's profile
It appears that McCain is positioning himself to be the candidate that has the experience with fighting a war and being a prisoner--all at the same time. He is soft on torture, for obvious reasons. His position resembles a democrat in republican skin--for political reasons. I'm afraid this war on terror is going to be a long one!

Buck2
Well said. Of course you were immediately branded a liberal so on this site you will get little or no response.

We need to demand leadership. We need to demand answers to the questions of security, where is the money going, etc. This site, and others need to start pressing for answers and alternatives rather than either blindly agreeing, or acting as an appologist for the incompetence, of their prefered side of the aisle.

Little Kim
says: "they're just frat pranks, right?
David and Rush seem to cast these abuses as mere frat pranks - certainly not "torture", even though the Geneva Convention states that treatment abusing personal dignity is in fact torture."

You do understand that a person who disagrees publicly with me is abusing my personal dignity. You darn torturer you. And putting someone in jail? Oh, the indignity! Calling someone a bad boy. How shaming.

The point is not if waterboarding is torture. It may or may not be. The point is we must define it for our troops and interregators. If waterboarding is considered over the line, fine, ban it. If lound music is acceptable, say so. But telling me that I cannot abuse your dignity is so subjective as to be meaningless.

Hang On Sloopy
This is a moderated site. If you flag the comment as offensive, the moderators read it. If they find that they agree, they remove the post. They have a number of options from removing one post, removing all posts and banning the person for a period of time, to removing all posts and a permanent ban. They do not do it for normal disagreement or I would be banned today. Nor do they do it for liberal sentiment or we would never hear from Kimberly or several others. That answer your question?

modernone
Since Buck2 was wrong on all counts (just like Kimberly's understanding of things), why bother to answer him?

It's amazing to me
that democrats still have not grasped the fact that we are in a very serious war that conceivably could destroy Western civilization. Everything is a political game to these folks, something to be sugar coated, demeaned, and passed off to the MSM for presentation to the public as a fascistic attempt on the part of the Bush Administration to override civil liberties.

This is a dangerous game to be sure. There are some 1.4 billion Muslims in the world. If only 1% (probably far too low) of them are lumped into the lunatic fringe radical group who want to slash our throats, that still leaves 14 million screaming mimis who are so anxious to meet Allah and 72 virgins, they'ed strap on a dynamite vest, pop into your house and blow your whole family to smithereens. The FBI estimates there are 200,000 domestic terrorists running loose right now in these United States.

And the dems would have you believe that the biggest problem for us to worry about is that some radical nutberger currently being house in Club Gitmo is kept from getting a full 8 hours of slumber each night. Yeah, right.

Once again the democrat party and their kook base lib supporters demonstrate they're nuttier than a kettle of squirrel droppings.

graham
i'm from sc and next primary, lindsay is out as far as my vote.....

8th Amendment

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

That's it, that's the full text. How have we managed to go 219 years without defining "cruel and unusual punishments"?

Torture
Is waterboarding torture? As far as I can tell, it is unpleasant in the extreme, somewhat like holding another person's head under water until he *almost* drowns, but leaves no permanent physical damage.

The torture I've read about has involved removing fingernails or fingers, blinding, and other things that would be immensely painful and leave permanent physical damage.

My brother used to hold my head under water when we were kids, but obviously not long enough to drown me. (Is there typing after death?)

Do kids who do this today risk facing trials for torture? Are schoolyard bullies subject to such trials? (Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing bullies and their parents face trials and perhaps put an end to this barbaric behavior. As soon as parents and bullies got out of stir, there would *probably* be a serious "attitude adjustment," which might be considered torture!)

If the CIA interrogators have an effective means of getting terrorists to divulge info that will save American lives, without leaving the terrorists without fingers or eyes, etc, then I feel like those who know and perform this job should be allowed to do their jobs.

All 3 branches of government have *already* violated the Geneva Convention rights by the pretence that terrorists *have* them. They don't, so all 3 branches of our gov't are lying to us. GC rights do not apply to those fighting out of uniform or under the flag of some nation.

McCain, a recurring idiocy looking for an opportunity to take place, should know better than anyone that America's enemies don't take these rights seriously, and that the solution is *not* to degrade the methods by which we get info from terrorists without leaving permanent damage. "Skinning them alive"? Now *that* probably would be considered torture.

Waterboarding? Our troops go through this in basic training. Are we to treat terrorists as though they exist on a higher moral plane than our own military? (I have a son in the Army, so I have a personal stake in this. He's willing to risk life and limb to protect and serve his fellow Americans...while our gov't is trying to tie his hands behind his back.)

Anyone else see the McCain/Graham ticket as a serious possibility in '08? (Graham, from SC, would "cover" the South, a political necessity, it would seem.) The more that either of them says, the less I like what I hear.



The fact is..
...the Geneva Conventions are not worth the paper they are printed on! The only thing that gives them any value is that nations that obey the rule of law will apply them to their enemies. We know that Iran, China, North Vietnam, and the assorted terror groups recognize no law but their own. So where does this belief that any of our enemies will adhere to the Conventions come from? If they get their hands on one of ours, you can be darned sure that he will be killed; either after a show trial or on the internet with a dull sword!

We are kidding ourselves if we convince ourselves otherwise!

BS Director
comments that the cruel and unusual language of the constitution has been around for a long time and asks how we get along with that.

Simple, we have dozens and dozens of cases that go to the Supreme court that ask that very question. That is why the Pres is asking for clarification. If he is saying that he will only accept the following things being allowed, I think he is wrong. If he is saying, "give us some guidance here so our interregators can get it right." where is the harm in that?

Husker Jeff
Husker Jeff, I didn't flag it as offensive and I don't think anyone else would have. It had APR's usual condescending tone and he probably referred to me as a 'chump' or some such but that's just par for the course with this guy.

What he did was cite from a "heavily documented analysis published in 1996", proving how 'wrong' I was. So I looked up his source and found out it was written by HIM and 'published' on his own website (he has, for whatever reason, revealed his real name on this site in the past).

An hour or so after I outed him for doing this, the post disappeared.

So no, telling me this is a moderated site does not answer my question.

sloopy - disappearing

I'm guessing that if it's possible to delete one's own account, that might take all one'ss posts into the trash heap as well.

(awaiting all of the suggestions that I delete my account...)

Corny Jeff

Nah, he's asking for clarification because we're doing things we've never done before. Or rather, we've been caught doing things we've never been caught doing before.

How about we decide what should be allowed and what shouldn't? Let's define torture here.


They are not playing
They know exactly what they are doing. They are the subversive element, they are the fellow travellers and the underminers left over when the Soviet Union collapsed. They were agents disguised as "liberals" then. They only want to destroy America. For what reason, I don't know. Perhaps Sen. McCain was given some type of "Manchurian Candidate" treatment in the Hanoi Hilton. That would be an easy explanation as to why this Navy officer is so disposed to destroy his country. But the sad fact is this: The traitors in congress would not be there if it were were not for a bunch of fools electing them to their posts.

BS Detector
Nope. Still active on another thread.

One Hand Tied Behind Our Backs
It galls me that we are even having this discussion. Whlie we are fighting a war for the survival of Western Civilization, people who are old enough to be grown-ups are fiddling over who gets to claim the moral high ground. Here's a historical fact: The winner ALWAYS gets the moral high ground. They make the rules and write the history books. The loser gets bupkis.

If we decide to wage this war with one hand tied behind our backs, perhaps we can take comfort while patting ourselves on our newly-burka'd backs, that we didn't make anybody feel un-COM-fortable during the conflict.

self-promoting not allowed?

even though limbaugh did it in every column he wrote for weeks?

Unbelievable
Citing a source, which is actually a paper you wrote yourself! LMAO! I'm sure he wrote it in his mom's basement - during commercial breaks of NPR or Air Amerika - with his PB&J or animal crackers in one hand.

Just when you think liberal treachery has truly hit rock bottom, the moonbats still find a way to dig a little deeper in the sludge.


BS Detector on Self Promotion
No, he presented as if it was an independent expert analysis that SUPPORTED his points. He did NOT claim that they actually WERE his points.
In other words, they were presented as a validation and proof of the point he was trying to make.

If I told you I had proof that you were wrong about the effects of tax cuts on government revenue, and then cited an "expert analysis" as proof of my point (failing to tell you that this was actually some term paper I wrote myself), would you not find that unethical???

Certainly, self promotion is allowed. Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with what happened here. If he had claimed it as his own, there would be no problem. He tried to pass it off as independent verification of his ideas.

BS Detector on Self Promotion
No, he presented as if it was an independent expert analysis that SUPPORTED his points. He did NOT claim that they actually WERE his points.
In other words, they were presented as a validation and proof of the point he was trying to make.

If I told you I had proof that you were wrong about the effects of tax cuts on government revenue, and then cited an "expert analysis" as proof of my point (failing to tell you that this was actually some term paper I wrote myself), would you not find that unethical???

Certainly, self promotion is allowed. Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with what happened here. If he had claimed it as his own, there would be no problem. He tried to pass it off as independent verification of his ideas.

North Korea
You mention what North Korea would do. Some of the techniques we are using were the exact ones that North Koreans used to get confessions from American prisoners like sleep deprivation and keeping people in cold cells and uncomfortable positions. You mention physical harm but are the worst scars from wars physical. Sometimes the pschological scars are just as bad or worse. The head of security for Israel who have much more experience with terrorists than we do said they never use torture but are able to get all the information they need without it. In WWII the Germans and Japanese used torture and we didn't. Who won the war?

ProfGene
Attempts by liberals to morally equate the US and some of the most deprived and evil regimes in the world are disingenuous at best – although I would use seditious or treasonous myself.

Here are the exact words from a 2003 report by the US Committee for Human Rights in North Korea (USCHRNK), “torture was "routine" and "severe." Methods of torture reportedly included severe beatings, electric shock, prolonged periods of exposure, humiliations such as public nakedness, confinement for up to several weeks in small "punishment cells" in which prisoners were unable to stand upright or lie down, being forced to kneel or sit immobilized for long periods, being hung by one's wrists, being forced to stand up and sit down to the point of collapse, and forcing mothers recently repatriated from China to watch the infanticide of their newborn infants. Defectors continued to report that many prisoners died from torture, disease, starvation, exposure, or a combination of these causes.”

Selecting one or two items from this list which are “similar” to CIA techniques and then equating us with NK is a poor argument at best. It would be the same as me publicly stating, “At some point in their marriage, there is an 85% chance that American women will be yelled at or brutally killed by their husband.” (liberals use this trick all the time).

Also, your, “who won WWII” is also a ridiculous point. If you knew your history, you would also know that we interred most of the Japanese-Americans living in our country during the war. Are you recommending we lock up all muslims or arabs in the United States?

What exactly are you the professor of?

lucky
to profgene.
we won ww2 because we had something nobody else had,,nudes,,,if someone else had them, we would have MAYBE lost...

profgene
i ment nukes......

Lucky
LOL...although nothing wrong with having nudes too.....

Nude Bomb?
You know, we might do better to have Maxwell Smart in there, rather than some of these long-time Clinton appointees....

lucky
Actually, I think we should investigate the possible effectivness of deploying our 'nudes' against the Islamics.

I don't think we should dismiss out-of-hand a weapon with the possible magnitude of the nude.

Torture or Interrogation
I scold myself for not tapping into this entertaining and (sometimes) enlightening running dialog sooner. I claim medical priorities. Here I am, tossing my take into the pot.

The concept of torture is, like porn, in the mind set of the receiver. As has been said; "I know it when I see it". So I agree with the thesis that we, just us Americans, should define our national position in clear terms that the entire planet can understand; and act accordingly.

I tend to agree with most of the conclusions offerred here. They reasure me that there are others out there who cut thru the crud. What I see in these posts, however, is a lot of talk but no action. Political parties offer nothing substantive. Where are YOU preaching to the masses "yearning to be free"? This forum? I never heard of it before today. Don't ask me for an answer, I am only one voice crying in the wind; not a guru. I have only more questions and no answers.
SAM I AM

What is torture?
Torture can be defined in many different ways by many different people. So, why have all the confusion from all these different people. A smart person,(President Bush), would seek to clarify just what is and just what isn't so that the real men,(the CIA, the Military), can do their jobs without the threat of losing their butts doing what it takes to secure all of our safety and liberties here in the great USA.

They,(The CIA & Military), want to do this so all you CL'S, (Commy Liberals),can keep whining and spewing your unjustified rhetoric. How can any of you possibly say/think that Pres. Bush was trying to change something around in the GC when he was CLEARLY saying, "CLARIFY". Only you CL'S would come away with that.

NRAlifer, I'm with you all the way. "Screw the terrorist and the lefties who support and enable them."

Call this a fight?
Compared to what's going on over in the Coulter thread?

Nice troll.

answer to all
I wasn't equating anything. I was just saying where we learned the techniques from the Communists. I know my WWII better than all of you I lived through it and have spent much of my life studying it. I have an extensive library on WWII plus have heard many first hand accounts. The point is that those methods of interrogation are unecessary according to the biggest expert on terrorists the Israeli head of security.

Limbaugh Just does not get it
Limbaugh, now a David as if we did not had enough with Rush !! Is the name synonymus with Right Wing missinformation, and obfuscation or is Limbaugh now the in- name to have among Right Wing nuts. I can just see them... I am naming my baby Rush, and changing my name from Baba Redneck to Sam Limbaugh.

Dear David, back to the subject here after the small distraction. The main problem with not following the Geneva convention is that terrorist that are captured in countries that do follow Geneva, will not extradite the asumed terrorist, and will not let us near them..... Kind of like them telling you, Bush, and the give- a- torturer- a -job crowd to go fly a kite.
Torture this people !!!

Do you think any one other than your little pathetic crowd of Right Wing nuts gives a darn about what your interpretation of the Geneva convention is? I tell you what. If you can catch a terrorist do wherever to him, but if you are going to have to depend on others to capture terrorists, as we are currently doing, then you better come with better B.S. to justify the "reinterpretation" my friend. The usual Clinton made me do it ain't going to cut it here.

torture
"Why do politicians who know better portray certain CIA interrogation techniques used to extract life-saving information from enemy detainees as torture?"

Gotta love this question. Limbaugh should try experiencing waterboarding and he might find out.

Pilate asked "what is truth" but he wasn't interested in the answer. Same goes for those asking about torture. They only want to know about torture to the extent that they can define it in a manner which will permit us to do it. But definitions aside, torture is torture. You know it when you see it, you know it when you feel it.

If we need a definition, I'll take McCain's def over Bush's any day. McCain paid his dues on this subject.

QUESTION:
Why hasn't anyone offered any specific approaches or solutions or modus operandae for obtaining intelligence; techniques which would not be generally considered torture but which would elicit quality intelligence? Much of what I am reading here is prattle to my ears. I believe you all can do better.
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