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Tuesday, August 22, 2006
David Limbaugh :: Townhall.com Columnist
Democrats: Avoiding the flow chart
by David Limbaugh
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Since the 2006 elections are fast approaching and the war is the most important national issue, wouldn't it be helpful to prepare a simple flow chart to compare the Bush administration's policy on the war with that of his Democratic critics?

One would think such an exercise would be unnecessary, since everyone knows what each side is advocating. But as ridiculous as it seems, no one has yet to flush out the Democrats on their position and the consequences flowing from it. They continue to hide behind their naked criticisms of President Bush and his policies, offering no intelligible alternative policy.

Nonsense, you say. Democrats are demanding withdrawal. Are they? To be sure, they make loud noises about withdrawal, but when Republicans have forced a vote on it, most of them have run for the tall grass. Instead, they throw out meaningless or misleading terms like "benchmarks" or "redeployment," which buy them more time to slander Bush without offering a plan of their own that can be evaluated or for which they can later be held accountable.

So let's proceed to construct a flow chart. On one side we have President Bush's clearly articulated position, which he reaffirmed at Monday's press conference. We will remain in Iraq until the mission is completed: when Iraqi security forces can provide stability and protection for the newly formed government. We will continue vigorous enforcement of the Patriot Act and the NSA surveillance program. We will encourage the ongoing sharing of intelligence between agencies, the tracking of terrorists' finances and will oppose terrorist-sponsoring regimes.

The Democrats' position is to emasculate the Patriot Act, the NSA surveillance program, and the monitoring of terrorists' finances. Their position on Iraq is less clear, and less unified. Most are demanding withdrawal, but only part of them really mean it.

The group that doesn't mean it clamors for withdrawal, but denies it is advocating "cutting and running." No, it favors "phased" withdrawal to be effectuated as Iraqi security forces are able to handle the primary security duties themselves. Policy-wise, this group adds nothing to the mix, so they add nothing to the flow chart. They offer only hollow, destructive criticism, which undermines the commander in chief and damages troop morale.

Nor is their insistence that Iraqi troops be trained more quickly a policy difference. Training is a matter of implementation. Everyone, including President Bush, wants the troops trained as quickly as possible. But all the carping from this group won't make it happen any faster, nor would their assumption of leadership. The troops will be ready when they're ready.

The other group presumably is demanding withdrawal immediately, or on a date certain, whether or not Iraqi security forces are ready to handle the job alone. This group's policy definitely makes the flow chart. But to complete the picture we need to examine its likely consequences.

If we withdraw before Iraqi forces are fully prepared, we'll hand the terrorists their first major victory in the war -- not just a successful, devastating attack on the order of 9/11, but a full-blown victory in Iraq.

It would be, in the words of President Bush, a complete "disaster." We would be sending the message that terrorism pays, that the West lacks resolve, isn't serious about the War on Terror and fails to understand the global reach and designs of the enemy.

It would be an invitation to terrorists to redouble their recruitment efforts, to increase their attacks, to stand in the way of any freedom-seeking peoples in the Middle East and elsewhere and to bring the war to America. It would tell terrorists that in lieu of defeating us militarily, they merely need to create enough havoc to wear us down to the point of surrender. It would greatly increase the likelihood that Iraq would become an enormous terrorist training camp dwarfing that of Afghanistan under the Taliban.

These horrifying consequences are why Democrats are so determined not to provide their "plan," so determined to remain off the flow chart.

They tell us such consequences would not be their fault, but President Bush's for attacking Iraq in the first place. Sorry, but Saddam was a serial treaty violator, a gathering threat and exceedingly terrorist-friendly. One of the major reasons the terrorists are fighting so hard to thwart the new Iraq regime is that it is terrorist-unfriendly.

Unless Republicans run a completely incompetent campaign, Democrats should still have an uphill battle in November because they can't afford to have the consequences of their policies exposed to the light of day. They'll do anything they can to remain off the flow chart. It's our job to put them on it.

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About The Author
David Limbaugh, brother of radio talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, is an expert in law and politics and author of Bankrupt: The Intellectual and Moral Bankruptcy of Today's Democratic Party.
 
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Hey
Where's the chart?! Chart Tease! I've seen a few of them floating around on the 'net. I thought you had actually done one to present your case. Good article tho'.

Right On!
With John McCain out there pushing his own message, what can be done to make sure the "real" Republicans are presenting the right message? Great article!

Contemptible
What infantile and dishonest rubbish. You clearly have no interest in truth, only in saying what suits your partisan purposes. Can you not address reality and the disastrous situation that your foolish administration, with the help of the British government (I am by the British and live in Japan), has created? Is all you can do is trot out a few Republican 'talking points' to the acclaim of a few fools who have never thought about anything seriously in their lives? Do you think this is responsible journalism? Do you have no ethical qualms about the consequences of your specious rhetoric and the consequences of the failed policies they support, which includes the deaths and wounding of your own countrymen in addition to those of tens of thousands of people who are not your countrymen? Does none of this matter to you? I find it contemptible the way you use this disaster as an excuse for scoring petty political points. There are many things I admire about America, but the dishonesty and infantilism of so-called 'conservative' journalism is not one of them.

Simple Formula
Given, even with reservations, that the President of the United States and the Republican Congress are making a sincere effort to act in the best interests of this country's future; and given that they could not be doing EVERYTHING wrong, even if they were trying to fail; it would seem that any individual or group consistently opposing the administration on every issue must be considered un-American by definition. A rational "opposition" would at least agree on some points. The current excuse for a Democratic Party cannot muster even the least bit of honesty necessary to support our opposition to terrorist tactics, or anything else. That's a sick bunch on the other side of the aisle, and we America supporters had all better be in the voting booths this November and all that follow.

FLOW CHART THIS!!!
President made it clear we will not leave Iraq under his administration. That's simple to understand.

Shiites kill Sunnis and vis a versa for the next 50 years. That's pretty simple to understand!
OR
We tell the Iraqians get your act together within six months, one year, two years the most. Net result will be Shiites will continue to kill Sunnis and visa versa for the next fifty years.

We can't even rebuild New Orleans and we are trying to rebuild Iraq. Find that on your flow chart!!

Ok, how do we convice the rest
How do we convice the rest of the country when most watch the main stream media. They are getting bombed by the news reports and the biased democrats comments, when they do not give any equal time to us

"tim" proves the point, doesn't he?
"Tim", above, is a perfect example of what you are talking about, David. His comment includes the terms, "contemptible, dishonest, rubbish, infantile, fools, disastrous, specious rhetoric, and failed policies".

This is the output of a mind dominated by its emotions, primarily hostility and hate. He has nothing to offer but venom and criticism. He is incapable of articulating an alternative course of action because THAT would take reason and logic -- both of which he discarded long ago.


Various
1. LEO - Get real! It isn't the administration's responsibility to rebuild New Orleans - that job is for the state and local governments. Judging by the previously demonstrated abilities of the govenor and mayor, your grandchildren will probably be on Social Security before that happens.

2. POKER GUY - Whatever you do, don't expect honesty from the current breed of Democrats! They don't even have the courage to outline their own ideas on anything - only the vague "we'll change it" rant that says nothing.

3. TIM - See para. 2 above! Your rant says nothing except that you don't like Republicians. Wouldn't it be more useful if you demonstrated your great wisdom and provided the great unwashed with constructive criticism?

As a senior citizen, I certainly hope I live long enough to see a return to a "united" America. Where the people once again care more for the good of their country than they do for a political party. Where political correctness takes a back seat to what is right. Where a sense of shame and responsibility helps mold our society, rather than what makes one feel good.

An unknown once wrote "Honor is a gift a man gives to himself". Don't you wish EVERYONE would live by that idea?

more meaningless rhetoric
Just more meaningless rhetoric which fails to even provide a motive, let alone a logical motive, as to why it is that Islamic fundamentalists hate us to begin with, and which fails to even accept the common-sense notion that perhaps killing an insurgent is counterproductive if you create two more in the process. People like David Limbaugh are more interested in saving political face than actually solving problems.

Various
1. LEO - Get real! It isn't the administration's responsibility to rebuild New Orleans - that job is for the state and local governments. Judging by the previously demonstrated abilities of the govenor and mayor, your grandchildren will probably be on Social Security before that happens.

2. POKER GUY - Whatever you do, don't expect honesty from the current breed of Democrats! They don't even have the courage to outline their own ideas on anything - only the vague "we'll change it" rant that says nothing.

3. TIM - See para. 2 above! Your rant says nothing except that you don't like Republicians. Wouldn't it be more useful if you demonstrated your great wisdom and provided the great unwashed with constructive criticism?

As a senior citizen, I certainly hope I live long enough to see a return to a "united" America. Where the people once again care more for the good of their country than they do for a political party. Where political correctness takes a back seat to what is right. Where a sense of shame and responsibility helps mold our society, rather than what makes one feel good.

An unknown once wrote "Honor is a gift a man gives to himself". Don't you wish EVERYONE would live by that idea?

Anyone hear an echo?
Don't post 15 times. It does not show up for a few minutes

Tiny Tim
Lets see. This article indicates that all libs do is complain but they don't come up with ideas on how to do it better. Your arguments are:
1. The column is partisan
2. The "policies" of this administration are bad
3. This column is partisan
4. David is bad because he is partisan.

Yup, lots of great suggestions there by cracky!

Mike
Your response to "Tim" is perfectly on target.

Everytime I see liberals placed in a corner where they are asked to put forth their "plan" and explain the likely consequences... they respond exactly like "Tim."

At least in "Tim's" case, he cannot vote, thank God.

Jeff
I'm not sure why, but since Townhall reformatted the order of these comments' sections last night... if I hit my "refresh" icon, it re-posts my comments. (I use Firefox). Maybe this is happening to others, as well.

The posts DO seem to be showing up more quickly though.

- Primus

No plan
The Dems never have a plan...wait they do, they just can't show it to us until after the elections! All you get from Dem are complaints, whining, and belly-aching. If they have a better plan, it would be nice to hear it! Complaints solve nothing...never have and never will!

Flow Chart
Thank you! Keep the flow chart updated and reprinted!

More meaningless nonsense
Jeema:

Unless you have been living under a rock, you would have noticed that the motive of the islamo-fascists to kill us is that we are the infidels and Allah commanded our death. They are stuck in a time hole from the 7th Century where if everyone does not believe your brand of religion then they must be slaughtered in the millions until they become one of you, a slave, or dead. Now, I know this barbarity doesn't appeal to "intellectuals", but these idiot savants feel that if the world does not fit nicely into their theories then it is the world that must change, just so they can be right without having to save face.

And you're right, killing one insurgent when two more replace it is stupid. Thankfully, we are killing insurgents faster than they can appear, and for every loss of ours there is over a hundred insurgents. The terrorists killed more civilians in one day then troops have died in the Iraq War over the course of 3 years.

However, Jeema, you have failed to provide a logical reason for why we should allow an insurgent to live based on the theory two more will replace him. One insurgent is out to kill you, by your logic, you should let him run amok because killing him will result in two more insurgents.

We should be addressing the real problem though, Syria and Iran. If you kill the state sponsors, the terrorists lose a significant amount of protection and funding.

Gee Jeema
Yes, they hate us because we dare to stand up to them and say "no more". But do you honestly think they would leave us alone if we just left them alone? Or leave Israel alone? Or Europe? Have you listened to the Islamists own stated terms for what conditions they would leave us alone? When we are.....destroyed and/or submitted to Islam. To borrow a line from Lord of the Rings; you may not wish for war, but war is upon you. Don't laugh at the danger, look at who is supplying their arms. Who did we supply arms to at the beginning of WWII? On which side did we eventually jump in with both feet?

Right or wrong, the President's plan of spreading democracy was a plan worthy of attempting by this country. It is a plan of moderation with the promise of reconciliation, and much more rational than "nuke'em" on one extreme or isolationism and pretend they'll just go away on the other. Unfortunately I see a much greater and deadly war coming in spite of, not because of, our efforts.

Iraq
We have to stay there until it is done, that is all there is to it. Also, we need to think about taking care of Lebanon instead of sending them taxpayers money. We need to stand by Israel too. Forget the UN, get rid of them.

Repubs Make Fearmongering a Art Form.
Chief among Republican tactics to maintain control of Congress this fall is the same one they used to re-elect President Bush, its called:

FEARMONGERING..

Essentially, the tactic involves having every possible Repub/Con Congressperson, Media, etc.
repeat the mantra that:

"We are at war with Islamofacist who want to kill all Americans by any means neccessary.
If nations that sponsor terrorism get ahold of
Nuclear weapons they would use them to destroy the U.S. So, If you dont want that to happen:

"RE-ELECT REPUBLICANS BECAUSE DEMOCRATS ARE WEAK ON DEFENSE AND WE WILL DO A BETTER JOB OF PROTECTING AND DEFENDING THE U.S."

Apparently it works with their supporters because everytime a terrorist attacks ,
a plot is foiled or a Irainsurgent leader is killed

Repubs Make Fearmongering a Art Form.
Chief among Republican tactics to maintain control of Congress this fall is the same one they used to re-elect President Bush, its called:

FEARMONGERING..

Essentially, the tactic involves having every possible Repub/Con Congressperson, Media, etc.
repeat the mantra that:

"We are at war with Islamofacist who want to kill all Americans by any means neccessary.
If nations that sponsor terrorism get ahold of
Nuclear weapons they would use them to destroy the U.S."

So, If you dont want that to happen:

"RE-ELECT REPUBLICANS BECAUSE DEMOCRATS ARE WEAK ON DEFENSE AND WE WILL DO A BETTER JOB OF PROTECTING AND DEFENDING THE U.S."

Apparently it works with their supporters because everytime a terrorist attacks ,
a plot is foiled or a Iraq insurgent leader
is killed, The Bush administration will
hype it to score political points and use it as justification for their failed policies. Bush's low poll#s will momentarily go up and once the violence resumes they plunge again, however Repubs believe this tactic of "fearmongering" will help them maintain control of congress come this November.

Brian Gets it!
Brian, in your comments you state "We should be addressing the real problem though, Syria and Iran. If you kill the state sponsors, the terrorists lose a significant amount of protection and funding."

I couldn't agree more. Fighting this war on Islamic Facism is very much like fighting the spread of Ivey through an Oak tree. You can cut off individual vines (terror cells or groups) 'till the cows come home, but you'll never solve the problem. You have to cut it off at the roots. For our purposes, that means changing ideologies (hearts and minds) if possible, but concentrating promarily on removing those regimes in those Nation States that, as a matter of State Policy, fund, equip, train and support Worldwide terror movements. I simply am mystified when I consider what the heck happened to the Bush Doctrine. What, we are "at war, and will make no distinction between the terrorists and those regimes that sponsor them" (unless that regime is too big and scary, then we'll go the the United Nations and beg them not to hurt us?)Why our tanks weren't in Tehran two years ago is simply beyond me. For cryin' out loud, we are the United States of America!! We're fighting this war with less than 1/100th of the power we could bring to bear if we were serious! I mean, how many of us have had our taxes raised to fund the war? (Luckily, tax cuts have resulted in a rapidly growing economy, therefore vastly increased receipts to the Federal treasury, but you get my point about common sacrifice). Bought any War bonds lately? Have you even been asked to? How many of us have had to ration our gasoline, or meat consumption? Why don't we have scrap metal drives any more? I know in the aggregate, it's not really necessary given that our current economy is about 100 times the size it was in the 1930's but we need to get the American people involved in this effort! Even more close to home, how many reading this are in the military? How many even KNOW someone in the Military? I'll wager very few. We could easily have Millions in our Armed Forces, if the problem is that we're simply spread too thin to fight further. Take the annual budget for the useless Departments of Commerce and Education, and use the $$ to raise the pay for Privates in the Army, and you'd have all the Soldiers you needed without a draft.

I suggest that just as in WWII, ultimate victory could never be achieved over Worldwide tyranny and facism with a "cease fire" agreement with Hitler, Mussolini or Hirohito. Some ideologies are simply too abhorrent, too dangerous to allow to continue to exist. Not a very popular statement in this era of moral relativism, but true nonetheless. In this war, (and this is a WAR, not a Boy Scout jamboree) victory is the only acceptable outcome. Not a "cease fire" not a "dialogue leading to understanding why they hate us", but victory. Victory will be not when there are no more terrorists, for that is a practical impossibility. Victory will be when there is no place left on earth that has a regime that allows terrorists to operate with impunity, no more Countries providing the resources that a Nation-State can bring to bear to fanatic, undeterrable nut cases. I realize that's a big pill to swallow, but we Americans have never shrunk from a dire threat before. Thank God the current crop of our "leaders" weren't in Office in 1942.

Flagwaver
Re: No plan, ahhh.. but they do have a plan. It came into play when Bush first took office. It amounts to the Democrat leaders (if you can call them that) giving marching orders to GET Bush and his administration, no matter what! They have no plans on how to deal with world affairs because they've been given orders to concentrate on Bush. They must take back the White-house!!

This little terrorist thingy is but an annoyance that they sweep under the rug, because it detracts from their GET Bush plans! When they are forced to answer about terrorism, the answer is always the same. We must "Understand" them, "Appease"them "Negotiate" with them. After all, Islamics are people, just like us! Their 5,000 years of murderous aggression is but a temporary thing.

Now let's get back to our original plan! We must get Bush! He is the enemy! Howard Dean! Sound the charge! We Have a Plan! (dictated now by Nancy Peloski) "We'll take America in a New direction!" I can visualize Howard Dean screaming the mantra as though he were a college cheer leader. And all the Liberals cheering in response!

the Contemptible tim
Tim, you call this article rubbish when it's your response that is truly rubbish! It is you and those on the left that are contemptible always providing aid to the terrorist with your lack of honest debate and true understanding of the facts. If a Brit living in Japan can't see what is happening, then I wonder if anyone on the left can see passed their own ego, hate, and self importance and see the truth?

Fearmongering Works On Republicans.
Baseballdr:

Since you say fearmongering works only cowards I assume youre talking about your fellow repubs/cons..Even they are talking about the failure of the Iraq War, then something like the so-called "foiled plot in Britian" happens and all the repub con/ "chickenhawks" come home to roost and Bush's approval ratings jump up a few points much to Karl Rove's satisfaction. too funny for words...

Left Angle
What would you say if we got hit again?

That It proves the point.
That nothing Bush is doing Iraq is going to stop another terrorist attack on the U.S. or keep it safer. that is Bush/RNC propaganda that you on the right keep buying.

The Iraq War is a waste of time, money and american soldiers' lives, because Iraq/Hussien had absolutely nothing to do with the events of 9-11-01 which many repubs/cons BELIEVE. It is distraction in hunting down Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

So...
Do you think it worthless to put forth an effort to stop further attacks?

David
"They tell us such consequences would not be their fault, but President Bush's for attacking Iraq in the first place.... "

Since "it was Bush's fault for invading Iraq in the first place", what does any Democrat propose to do about THAT? Turn back the clocks - so to speak - to between October 2002 and March 2003 and Change the Course of History - NOT Invade Iraq? Is that what they are proposing?
#1 The last I knew, we didn't have time travel perfected, so how will they go back to that time?
#2 Have we already forgotten the seventeen resolutions of the UN, that Saddam broke? (or never lived up to, if you prefer)?
#3 I remember hearing about Saddam having a 737 fuselage on the ground in Baghdad, for the purpose of training the next wave of hijackers. He had no connection with 9/11/2001? It appears that he was planning to have a connection with the next attack! Should we have just let him go ahead with those plans? Apparently the Democrats would be happy with that!
#4 Not reported in the MainStream Media (Surprise, Surprise!), but publicly available information - see some articles from TownHall from Nov 2005. A partial list of what Saddam did NOT manage to smuggle out of Iraq before we invaded: 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium; 1,700 gallons of chemical weapons agents; chemical weapons containing cyclosarin, which is five times more deadly than Sarin; radioactive materials in powdered form for dispersal over populated areas; artillery projectiles loaded with binary chemical agents. "Enriched uranium" is the only kind used for weapons production; yes, it COULD also be used in nuclear reactors, but this much would be enough to power every nuclear reactor we have in THIS country for a very long time - and Iraq didn't have nearly as many reactors as we do. Just because Peter Jennings never breathed a word about any of this, we're supposed to believe that Iraq had no WMD's?

No I dont think its worthless
I just think that Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda
should be the primary focus of that effort.

Yet...
Haven't attacks been thwarted?

Isn't al-Qaeda fighting in Iraq?

And do all terrorists call themselves a part of al-Qaeda and Osama their boss?

left angle
After the first gulf war I watched a tv special about Saddam on PBS. I watched as the news crews showed dead bodies all over the place, that was blamed on the Bush Administration because Saddam was allowed to keep their helicopters and they used them to wipe out whole villages with chemicals. Anyway the whole thing was designed to embarass Colin Powell and the first Bush administration. I watched as Saddam bragged that he had won that war, because he was still in power and Bush wasn't. I watched as he took the news crew to the training camps and explained what their tactics would be. How can you say that Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism? You are ignoring facts.

For all Conservatives posting
here. When we conservatives disagree we are quick to jump on the poster. And debate the disagreement to a logical conclusion.

But I have yet to see a Liberal try and correct a Liberal at anytime.
Have you?

I expect the Liberals to respond with something like, That's because we're never wrong! Or some such nonsense.

Obtuse Angle
Wrote in response to a question about what he will say if there is another attack: "That nothing Bush is doing Iraq is going to stop another terrorist attack on the U.S. or keep it safer."

So, if there is an attack, it proves that he is right and Bush is wrong. And if there is not attack, it proves the danger is not there and Bush is wrong and he is right.

I assume if the sun comes up it is because Bush is wrong and the left is right and if it is cloudy it is because the Left is right and Bush is wrong.

Left Angle opines...

... "No I dont think its worthless
I just think that Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda
should be the primary focus of that effort."

Left Angle, unlike liberals, conservatives ARE capable of "focusing" on more than one enemy at a time.

Perhaps if you and your fellow libs stopped focusing all your attention on trying to make President Bush the enemy, you'd begin to see the world the way it is... not as you wish it were.

You liberals think it is a birthright that your way is the only way. And now, and in recent years, the light has been turned upon you and you are having to actually defend your positions.

I am still waiting on just ONE of your leaders to articulate a plan that is different than the present course, with any kind of a reasoned forecast of the consequences should such a plan be implemented. The only "plan" I keep hearing is that "Bush is wrong, and if you elect us we'll do better." Define "better" to me... and is it "better" in the short term or long term? And by what measurement criteria?

In my opinion, I think the reason we don't hear this from your side is that either: You don't REALLY know what to do, or; the "plan" your leadership may have cooked up has been focus-grouped and found to be a "loser" with the electorate.


Left Angle scares me
So I suppose the fact that the German V-2 attacks on London continued after the Normandy Invasion proves the attacks were "caused" by the Allies' invasion? Oh, I bet all those German soldiers we found awaiting us in the hedgerows of France were motivated to join the German army by the Allies' conquest of Sicily, so we should have never conducted that campaign. Or, that the D-Day invasion of France was innefective and a "distraction" from the "real war" on Germany because it didn't immediately "stop" attacks on London. Left Angle, you're using the wrong metric in your analysis. You're thinking too small. The objective is to Win WWIII. The question isn't whether or not removing Saddam's regime "makes us safer" (in the short run) or prevents all attacks or threats of attacks on us or our Allies, but does it bring us closer to the end of the larger war? Manifestly, there is not a single American parent putting their kids to bed tonight worried that Saddam will slip a WMD to a terror organization. (You do know we've found documentation of a robust Iraqi WMD program ready to be reconstituted, over 500 actual WMD's in Iraq, and documents detailing the Saddam regime's direct ties with a myriad of terror organizations, including but not limited to Al Qaida, right?)Saying our current war is against Osama and only Al Qaida is like saying our conflict in 1942 was against Admiral Yamomoto and his fleet of Aircraft Carriers. In other words, dangerously naieve and severely myopic, which is what foaming Bush hatred combined with a dismal lack of Historical perspective will do. But, Left Angle does provide exhibit # 4,237 for why the Left should never again be let within 1,000 miles of the reigns of power in this Country again.

Bush Republican congress ratings..
Bush 34% Approval Rating

Republican Congress: 33% Approval Rating.

I rest my case.

An Alternative Course of Events
We shoukd also ensure that the flow chart includes the series of events likely to have occurred if WE had not taken out Saddam Hussein when WE did if he had had the capabilities he claimed and WE believed he had. Which of our (or Israel's) cities would today be a cinder? Perhaps Iran will provide that answer.

I emphasize WE in the above in anticipation of the left screaming "Bush lied". WE, through our elected representatives -- both Republican and Democrat -- voted for war with Saddam's Iraq. Mr. Bush and the Congressmen who voted for war all had the same information available to them.

World Police
"Sorry, but Saddam was a serial treaty violator, a gathering threat and exceedingly terrorist-friendly."

So, by the author's reasoning, we should invade Iran, Venezuela, North Korea, Syria...what's the conservative reasoning behind not doing this immediately?

Also, "We should stay in Iraq until the job is completed." The president and his advisors are not doing a good job telling us realistically how long we can expect to stay there. We cannot stay there for 20 years. We cannot spend more than the national GDP in one year to fund the war. We cannot effectively combat any future crises while being mired in Iraq. So, this is an untenable strategy for many reasons.

No mention of the civil war was made in the article. It's omission raises an eyebrow to this left-of-center reader. If there is civil war we have no business being there.

The Bush Doctrine of pre-emtive strikes also creates problems for us going forward. Going to the UN security council when we're busy with Iraq looks strange to the rest of the world after our go-it-alone strategy with Iraq. The posters here that advocate fighting them over there so they don't fight us here have convinced themselves that this is a good thing. Iraq has terrorists, yes, but it is more a civil war among warring religious factions now rather than terrorists.

Finally, where is Osama? Why don't we invade or nuke Pakistan to find him? Wouldn't that be justified with your neo-conservative logic?

Also, please try to keep your posts civil. Nothing detracts from an argument more than calling people names (libs, dems, etc.). It's uncivilized.

Left Angle
That proves nothing on who's right.

Denial of 9/11
The reason that liberals from both parties cannot come up with a plan that accounts for American interests is simple: 9/11 never happened. Bush was right about the Axis of Evil and that is beyond the liberal's comprehension. Bush's policies are more practical than any of the libs: we do better to fight terrorists with Army and Marines rather than with Fireman and Police. If it really did happen, then liberals might have to take a closer look at their hedonistic policies on pandering, placating, and diversity.

Note to Tim: There were over 100 British citizens killed in the 9/11 massacre; but, that's probably not your concern since at least 3 or 4 of them were probably conservatives. If I were you, I'd be careful about hiding out in Japan too long, Korea has some more missile testing scheduled and I don't think it's going continue to be as ineffective or as restrained as has been in the recent past.

It PROVES U.S. citizens DISAPPROVE
By a VAST Majority On the performance of President Bush and the Republican led Congress.

it also proves that they are not BUYING WHAT YOUR REPUBS/CONS are saying on Iraq, GWOT the economy, direction of the country, etc.

any yet you insist that everything is going well for them..I dont get it? those are dismal numbers and you are in denial about them.

34% approval for bush 64% disapprove

33% approval for repub congress 67% disapprove

40% approval on Iraq 60% disapprove.

Keep moving the goal post on your explanations about the WMD'S, REGIME CHANGE GWOT or is it ISLAMOFASCISM THIS WEEK...

WHY should dems put out a plan when Repubs continue to shoot themselves in the foot and
SELF-DESTRUCT...DEMS ARE PLAYING THIS PERFECTLY. L0L

Straightener
Regarding Iraq:

At the conclusion of Desert Storm, Saddam, through his representatives, agreed to certain conditions put forth by the United Nations in order to achieve a "cease fire". This is much like a criminal who is paroled having certain conditions the parolee must adhere to in order to remain out of prison.

I won't bore you or others with a complete list of Saddam's violations of this cease fire... the list is available in UN records if you are interested, but one of the biggest violations was the scandal of the "Oil for Food" program (which you won't find in UN records). His accomplices in this scandal were many who were part of the original coalition during Desert Storm... and the loudest opponents of holding Saddam accountable in 2003.

This argument about "going it alone" is specious, unless to you "going it alone" means Saddam's accomplices in this scandal decided to be non-participants when Saddam's violations finally lead to his forcible removal. Their motives are plain to anyone who is clear-thinking. I should add that I believe the case for WMD's was overplayed, but it was certainly not the only reason we did what had to be done.

The conditions of a cease fire violation do not exist in the other nations you have mentioned, which is why we continue to attempt diplomatic solutions instead of attacking unilaterally. (although, technically the Korean War ended in a cease fire... but that is a far different set of circumstances).

Ending our troops' involvement in Iraq is not by any means the end of the War on Terror. That is why we must not cut & run before Iraq's government can secure itself. It has taken other nations far longer for new democratic governments to take root (including our own). This isn't a nice, tidy mini-series on T.V. I remember well the speech President Bush presented to explain our new recognition of and responses to terrorism... and I clearly remember him saying that this war would take a "long time" and that we would have to "remain patient." I believe he even talked about the war lasting into other presidential administrations. So... it seems to me he has tried to be straight-forward about what to expect in this war.

As to keeping "posts" civil? I don't know how long you have been reading the posts on Townhall, (I don't recognize your screen name) but, trust me... if you think "dems" or "libs" is uncivil, you are in for much bigger examples. Also... a quick trip onto Daily Kos will demonstrate just how "civil" such nouns can be.

- Primus

Left Angle
If I wanted a "leader" to lead by polls, I'd choose a Democrat every time... you know... like Bill & Hillary.

And as to: "WHY should dems put out a plan when Repubs continue to shoot themselves in the foot and
SELF-DESTRUCT...DEMS ARE PLAYING THIS PERFECTLY. L0L"

Talk to me on November 8th. Of course, IF the Democrats manage to gain a few seats in Congress but not a MAJORITY... people like you will claim "victory."

Such is the "deep thinking" in your alternative universe.

Primus: youre in DEEP denial..lol
I dont require Bush to lead by polls, I require him to use "common sense" in his approach to fighting terrorism of which he is seriously lacking..His "Cowboy Diplomancy" ISNT WORKING..
Even REPUBLICANS ARE SAYING IT...MY GOD WHAT UNIVERSE DO YOU LIVE IN? lmao

I sincerely hope that the american people will come to their senses and get these repub/con INCOMPETENTS out of Power. the country has been going BACKWARDS since their coup on all branches of government.It's one thing to have the power in you hands another in how its used to govern.
Repupubs have proven beyone the shadow of a doubt the dont have a CLUE.

Lefty
Repeat a lie enough and people will believe it.
Such is the strategy that Dems are using. And, really, what do polls tell us? And does everything have to be popular to be right?

I would, if you don't mind, ask you to offer your plan to catch Osama and fight al-Quaeda, and then what about all the other terror networks?

I look forward to reading your response.

Left Angle
I am confident that I and many fellow conservatives can get on a podium and truly express our beliefs and our plans for the nation AND the great accomplishments of the conservative movement since 1994 without embarassment... and that message WILL resonate with the majority of mainstream Americans.

Your leaders CANNOT be honest about their beliefs and plans and have the slightest hope of achieving a majority. The only way your people can win is pretend to be centrists (even "conservative") on important issues and attempt to fool or scare the electorate into voting for them.

You yourself have demonstrated that you (or your leaders)have no "plan" as you attempted to sidestep the question. This ploy is one of the best examples I have seen on these pages that you and your party are "bankrupt" in the arena of ideas.

Want to entertain a bet on the outcome of the Connecticut senate race? Will it be your "mainsteam" candidate, Ned Lamont? Or will it be poor Joe Lieberman, who apparently is off the reservation of the "mainstream" Democrat group-think?

Primus. If you truly believe that Dems
Have NO PLAN On how to govern, IF they should regain Congress and the Whitehouse then YOU ARE A FOOL...LOL

As I said to you, CURRENTLY their is no REASON to reveal a PLAN when Repubs are doing so badly.
The RNC SLIME MACHINE would merely eviscerate it with negative partisan propaganda, turn it into
negative "sound bites" slogans like: "CUT & RUN"
THAT'S why youre so anxious and desperate for the dems to put forth a plan...What is the democrats plan you ask?

Lets just say: the "opposite" to whatever Prez Bush and the Republican Congress are doing so negatively. lol

On Conneticut..
Why arent repubs backing THEIR CANDIDATE...?

Rememer one thing Lieberman may back Bush on the GWOT, but he is a LIBERLAL On all other issues.

Left Angle
Uh huh.... didn't think you'd have any answers.

Oh... anyone notice who started the name calling in our discussion?

Lefty
Where's your plan?

We are waiting.

Is this guy for REAL?
Why should Dems put out a Plan?

Errr......why should anyone vote for them then?

Left Angle: "Lets just say: the "opposite" to whatever Prez Bush and the Republican Congress are doing so negatively. lol"

THANK YOU! They are so helpful in proving our points.

This guy is classic. Bush Hatred 101.
Vote for Dems Because we hate Bush!
(and we have a plan..REALLY...we're just to scared to say it. What will those meanies say about us then!)

P.S. Straightener says- "Nothing detracts from an argument more than calling people names (libs, dems, etc.). It's uncivilized."

Perhaps he can enlighten us. What PC word symbol can we use to denote persons to the political 'not-right' of republicans? Err...let's see..we can't use libs, lefties, dems (Is the actual name of their political party starting to take on the same connotations that 'liberal' has??? COOL!) I'm thinking you won't approve of 'not-right' either, but I think it's kind of apt! But really, you just give us a 'civilized' word symbol to use, and we'll do our best.

What word, Sloopy?
"What PC word symbol can we use to denote persons to the political 'not-right' of republicans?"
sloopy, you can can them what they are, with no slander intended. I do not take offense to being called "male", or "six feet tall." By the way, if "dems" and "libs" are offensive, should we take offense when "reps" is used as a shortened form for republicans? Are they also p!ssed off about being called blue states? I do the blue states and red states are Ridiculous terms, but not offensive, though. OK, here's my words that apply to the majority of people who happen to vote for democrats:

"Socialists" and "Pacifists"

They are words found in every dictionary, with no emotion attached to them. Only in the eye of the beholder, anyway.

Left's plan
Here is Left's plan(opposite of GB and Rep)
1. Raise your taxes - Republicans cut them
2. Nominate liberal judges to allow politicians to continue confiscating our private property to turn over to their friends - Republicans nominated conservative judges that believe in the original constitution
3. GWOT - Talk the jihadist into liking us. - Reps going after the jihadist.

At least that is a start.

Hey Sloopy
Just logged back on to see if our "Lefty" buddy has any additional wisdom to add to our discussion since 6:52 PM.

It would appear things were getting a little too hot in the kitchen here!

I've been waiting a long time to see a liberal demonstrate the textbook methods they use to "win" an argument... You know:

- Be condescending
- Ignore or twist facts
- Use big words to "project" intellect
- Answer a question with a question or change the subject.
- Name calling

... and my favorite:

- If you get pinned in a corner.... RUN!!!!

A Classic Illustration
of the difference between a Consevative and a ...uhhh....oh, heck, I know it's a bad word but I'm GOING for it- a Liberal:

Benjamin Netanyahu (conservative) called for an Inquiry into Israel's failures in stemming rocket fire and in assisting northern residents during 34-days of fighting.

Asked whether his calls are aimed at smearing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's government for political gain, Netanyahu said his Likud party stood behind the government throughout the war but now that the fighting ended, criticism is legitimate.

As illustrated here in the U.S., this is NOT the way Liberals handle things.

More of Lefty's plan
Social Security - Keep the Ponzi plan going. There is nothing wrong with it. Reps - replace it with private savings account that you own and get to keep all the money you put in.

Primus
Yes, I noticed who started it. I'm glad you did :). Leftists on this board seem to get a pass for their ad hominem attacks, though, usually, they begin more subtlely.

Primus54
Yeah, there aren't many 'left' who can sustain a logical debate. It's a pity, really.

Hey Sloopy
I gotta ask. By any chance, does your screen name have anything to do with being an Ohio State fan?

- Primus

Rino's will sink the party.
Left Angle,

The polls leave out the why.

The reason why the poll numbers are so low, is that conservatives are tired of rino's running the party. We're tired of repubicans spending like democrats. We're tired of republican officials becoming effeminate. We're tired of republicans not protecting the borders.


Left Angle, we're still waiting on your plan. I've heard all your gripes...................................

Getting back to your precious polls.

Left Angle - 95% of conservatives find you a putz.

The other 5% are waiting on your implosion.


Jerubaal
Thanks for noticing!

It's okay if the lefties get a pass. I haven't been immune myself from name-calling or labeling when I've gotten frustrated with some of these people.

But... I've turned over a new leaf and will try to always maintain "civility"! ;-)

- Primus

HELL NO!
Are you NUTS! I just needed a name quickly (had to reply to something) and didn't take time to come up with anything good.
Ohio State?!?!?!?
Am I gonna have to fight with YOU now? I'm mean, sure, you're not a wacko lib, but.... :D

By the way, if you must know....GO TIGERS!
LSU LSU LSU LSU LSU LSU LSU LSU LSU LSU LSU!

Primus54
OMG! Does my name have something to do with Ohio State? >:o !

I'm gonna have to change it if so....

I'll just use this one to make really dumb statements or something...

Sorry Sloopy...
... It was an OSU composer who wrote the marching band rendition of "Hang On Sloopy" which has become a fan favorite and is almost as recognized as the fight song.

My beloved Buckeyes are pre-season #1 in both polls and have been on the regional cover of Sports Illustrated... a sure kiss of death on both counts!

Hey... until and unless OSU vs LSU occurs, I can be an LSU fan as well!

Primus54
Hey, we all have our little peccadillos! :)

Primus54
Hey, we all have our little peccadillos! :)
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