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Wednesday, May 06, 2009
David Harsanyi :: Townhall.com Columnist
Sorry, History Is Just Not That Simple
by David Harsanyi
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It's fun to be idealistic in a world of moral absolutes. I know because I'm a columnist. But when we start discussing history, things always seem to get complicated.

"The Daily Show's" Jon Stewart learned this recently when debating the Foundation for Defense of Democracies' president, Cliff May, about the harsh interrogation techniques administered during the George W. Bush administration.

When May asked Stewart whether he also considers Harry Truman to have been a war criminal for dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the host answered yes. A few days later, however, Stewart apologized for his blasphemy, saying Truman's decision was, in fact, "complicated."

Things were indeed complicated. They are always complicated.

That's the point.

Please, don't get me wrong. For numerous reasons, I'm ecstatic that the United States triumphed over the forces of jackbootery during World War II. But staking moral claims on old wars is a bad idea for either side of this debate.

In fact, if Barack Obama believes, as he recently stated, that the nation "lost its moral bearings" under his predecessor, he will have a hard time defending any presidency.

After all, if waterboarding is a war crime, the dropping of an atomic bomb on a few hundred thousand innocent civilians surely deserves some serious consideration for rebuke. At the very least, it's a fair topic for discussion.

Just as surely, Franklin Roosevelt's presiding over the destruction of Dresden, which caused 30,000-40,000 civilians to be incinerated, is at least as terrible as long-term sleep deprivation.

If Bush deserves war crime status for holding terror suspects in Guantanamo Bay (which Obama has yet to close), then we safely can say that FDR merits more of a historical lashing for the forced internment of 100,000 Japanese-Americans to "war relocation camps."

If Bush is a war criminal for denying terror suspects habeas corpus, then what is one to make of Abraham Lincoln, who suspended habeas corpus for all American citizens during the Civil War? Or of President Woodrow Wilson, who backed the Espionage Act, which forbade Americans from using "disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language" about the government?

Because, if we buy the argument that the ends never justify the means, we can't give presidents passes. If you argue that times and morality have evolved, that situations have changed, or that some causes are greater than others, then you're offering up distinctions, and you should accept some, as well.

The need to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki has been debated for decades. When President Bill Clinton backed the NATO bombing of Serbia -- at least 500 civilians were killed by NATO, according to Human Rights Watch -- he claimed that the bombing was necessary to "deter an even bloodier offensive against innocent civilians."

If that argument sounds familiar, it is because it is utilized all the time. Did the bombing of Serbia, Japan or Iraq save lives in the long run? Did the waterboarding of prisons save Americans from terror acts? I just wish a proponent would say, "We can't know for sure."

At this point, I can hear Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men" encapsulating the opinion of many: "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said 'thank you' and went on your way."

We shouldn't be on our way. In fact, history gives us a template to evaluate the complexities and morality of war.

And there are few absolutes.

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About The Author
Harsanyi
Too much Monday morning quarterbacking going on. Its so easy after the fact. One must place these issues in an historical context, as the author did. Perhaps more of the Bush-haters would then have to "John Stewart" their own perspectives. I loved the article, though Harsanyi is a new author to me. Well said.

Fight a PC War and Lose
You can't fight a war with Political Correctness and the liberal administration of Barack Obama will preside over many deaths if he tries. War is, and always has been, a dirty business. In the asymmetrical warfare launched by the Muslim fanatics we can't afford to give them any quarter because 9/11 showed they won't give us the luxury of fighting a conventional war.

Harry Truman did the right thing as did Sherman when he made the devastating march through Georgia and showed the Confederacy that it was beaten.

The ethics of survival is not ping pong: there's no such thing as a good war. It's a nasty business but survival always comes down to "Kill or be killed."

I guess it's complicated
I quick trip to Wikipedia shows that according to widely accepted estimates, the Imperial Japanese Army killed more people in the Rape of Nanking - up close and personal with bullets, swords, bayonets, shovels and raping to death, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

Two wrongs don't make a right for sure. But one has to wonder if a nation which could field an army like that, was ever going to surrender to anything less than that kind of overwhelming destructive power.

Barack Hussein Chavez.......
Alien in Chief has child's view of history. Truman was right. We were preparing for the invasion of Japan in the fall of 1945 - it woul d have been a bloodbath. Estimated casualties were a half of million for the US and 2-3 million for Japan.

Hussein is a Marxist. This discussion of WW2 is just another disstraction to keep our attention off of his "pinstripe revolution" going on in Wash DC.

Don't believe me? Just see how he acted in the Chrysler negotiations. Barry Soetoro is Hugo Chavez.

Brutal common sense
The koolade idiots remind me of the Children's Crusade. The lucky ones were sold into slavery. These people have no idea of the uses, powers, and limitations of force. They are insulated from the unpleasant harsher aspects of reality by affluence and their own choices to rationalize incredible folly. They are comfortable themselves, so they assume everyone in the world is comfortable. Their philosophy of life works on a college campus so they assume it works in the Kalahari or Mumbai. Politics is not violence oriented here: succession of power not determined by death and imprisonment, so they assume our situation to be universal. Ignorant, smug, and vulnerable. Sooner or later, reality, consequences and results intrude.

"few absolutes," but this is one
I take a backseat to no one in my conservatism, including on defense issues. Harsanyi is correct in saying there are "few absolutes," but atomically bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki and carpet bombing Dresden were unequivocally evil, hence war crimes. Why, because they intentionally killed innocent civilians, which is different from unintentionally killing them as collateral damage while aiming at military targets. Doesn't come close to fitting the criteria for a 'just war' tactic.

Targeting civilians
Sherman was right?After that war he said that according to what he was taught at West Point,had the South won,they would have been justified in hanging him for war crimes.His words.Lincoln's OK to target civilians and his use of POW's as human shields should place him in history as a war criminal.But the victor writes,or in this case,doesn't write,the history.

War Crimes
If we the intentional bombing of Japanese and German civilians is a war crime, which by defination is a crime against humanity. It follows then that Janet Reno is one of the worset for her attack upon innocent American children causing them to be inciinerated alive. Yet this beast roams free

My take on Dresden
I've been a WWII buff for a long time, and I first read about the Dresden bombing when I was in my teens. It didn't make much sense to me, militarily. Dresden didn't have much in the way of industry, and it was home to thousands of American prisoners-of-war. Considering the level of destruction for little apparent reason, at the time I thought of it as a war crime.

I still do, but I think I understand the reasoning behind it. I'm convinced that the bombing of Dresden was not about the Germans at all; it was meant as a message for the Soviets. Dresden is in eastern Germany, on the Soviet line of advance, so every soldier and officer would see it, and know what we, us "weak democracies", were capable of. The ruins were a giant billboard saying "Do NOT mess with us!"

If that was the case, it seems to have worked. The Sovs pulled some stuff, no question, and more than we should have let them pull, but they never pushed us over the edge. When it came to the wire, they blinked, because they knew what we would do.

They took the lesson to heart that the Germans and Japanese had to learn the hard way: The wrath of an angry American nation is the next worse thing to the Wrath of God.

A war crime, almost certainly. But, it may have helped save the world.

War Crimes? No Such Thing!
I am fed up with all the war crimes talk. All's fair in war - that's why they call it war. Torture, dead civilians, anything goes. The mighty win; the weak whine. I HATE the international criminal court and any international "treay" there has ever been. The only thing that should matter is the interests of the United States. If someone else's interests don't align with ours they're free to try to stop us with any means necessary and vice versa. This is because we are the only nation on the planet that has killed its own to stop slavery, has spent millions in blood and cash to stop human right abuses, etc. We are the nation with the highest integrity in the world. If we had global domination on our agenda we would have done it a long time ago. We generally just want to be left alone and live our lives. Strong military, a wall on the Mexican border, stop foreign aid to countries who can never get enough handouts, lower taxes, LESS global cooperation instead of more - these are what will keep us strong.

Atomic Bombs
The bombs were in fact complicated and used basically used in the hopes of ending the war before the Soviets could get into the war and complicate post-war Japan. If Hiroshima was a war crime, so was Tokyo as the fire bombings killed far more than Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Dresden probably was a war crime, but it is the winners who decide who and who is not a war criminal. The US from December 8 onward used the same tactics of unrestricted submarine warfare as did the Kriegsmarine and Karl Donitz, but it was Donitz who found himself charged with war crimes, not Frank Knox or James Vincent Forrestal or Chester Nimitz. Dresden was done to help the Soviets not send any message to them. And Dresden was picked because destroying it would have a large impact on German morale, same reason some wanted to drop one of the atomic bombs on Kyoto--that would have been a war crime in my view. Luckily more sane heads (mostly Henry Stimson) prevailed in striking Kyoto off the list.

The concept of total war goes back a long way. Torture is another matter and under the UN CAT, water boarding would indeed be torture and since the US ratified the CAT in 1994, a violation of US law as well as international law.

2A
"I am fed up with all the war crimes talk. All's fair in war - that's why they call it war. Torture, dead civilians, anything goes."

Then your own country was wrong in the prosecution of in your view so-called war criminals such as those involved in Nanjing, the Bataan Death March, etc. No doubt some were prosecuted who should not have been--Yamashita and Donitz for example, but hard to argue that what the Nazis did or what many in the IJA or Kempeitai did was acceptable. Maybe Nimitz, Knox, bomber Harris, etc should have been in the dock too, but there has to be some norms of behavior even in war.

JMartin
If Hiroshima was an act of evil was Tokyo too? The fire bombings killed far more than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki. If the bombs had not been dropped and Japan did not surrender, the US would have used saturation bombing on most of the major population centers from August until Operation Olympic began on November 1--the deaths would be as high if not higher.

Of course, if the US had made it clear at Potsdam it had no intention of touching the Showa Emperor, this may have all be unnecessary and dispite what most Americans believe, it was the Soviets that pushed Japan to finally surrender, not the atomic bombs. But to call them a war crime? Hardly. If they had been used on Kyoto, then yes, that would have been as in my view Dresden was. But the war criminals on the winning side are almost never prosecuted.

Look at the Union POW camp Camp Douglas which had twice the death rate of Camp Sumter (Andersonville), but who do you think was executed the Union commander of Camp Douglas or the Confederate commander of Camp Sumter? Knox and Nimitz were doing the same things as the Kriegsmarine and Karl Donitz, but it was Donitz who spent 10 years in prison, not Nimitz.

Complicated? Ya Gotta Be Kidding
This is not complicated.

We were or are at war. The "innocent civilians" did / do / were supporting their war effort.

Our job in any war is to; Get in. Finish it. With the least amount of casualties on "our side".

Allowing ONE of our citizens (military or otherwise) to die NEEDLESSLY at the hands of ANY aggressor. IS A WAR CRIME perpetrated on US by OUR government.

Today Nukes are a bad idea because there are too many players and the entire world would suffer. THEN? The Japanese were MORE HORRID than the Germans in the killing of "innocents".

Bombing of Germany and "Nuking" of Japan SAVED more of THEM than a continued war would have cost. SAVED more of US. SAVED more "Innocents" of various nations.

Are you INSANE!? COMPLICATED?

THE LEFT REPRESENTS HIGH IGNORANCE NOW
There is no ignorance like the ignorance of RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Being right all the time also takes a lot of energy. Thinking hard is time consuming so it is easier to be RIGHT.

So, that being said I cannot call the leftist facists LEFTISTS ANYMORE. I just have to call them RIGHTESTS.

OH, WELL...THEY REPRESENT THE HIEGHT OF IGNORANCE BECAUSE THEY TORTURE REASON.

REASON IS TWISTED ROPE IN THIER HANDS.

I HOPE WE GET A CHANCE TO HANG THEM ON THIER REASONS.

ROWDY BOOTS

BETWyan
The US would not have stepped foot on Japanese soil (outside of what it had taken already--Iwo Jima and Okinawa) until November 1, 1945--months after the first atomic bomb was used. Japan had been approaching the Soviets from months in seeking its assistance in ending the war--a fact the Americans knew. The claim the US would have had to invade Japan is based on no evidence as they say in the legal profession, it is based on facts not in evidence. The causalities are also based on many assumptions and over the years have grown higher and higher in number ranging from the tens of thousands to the millions.

Japan's entire strategy was based on the Soviets staying out of the war and mediating an end to the war after Japan bloodied the Americans at Kyushu. The Soviets were going to enter the war no later than August 20, 1945 which is why the Americans were in such a hurry to use it before that date--ordering the bomb to be ready no later than August 10--as Byrnes had informed Truman that the military (meaning Marshall) felt the bombs could end the war without needing the Soviets (not really Marshall's view, but Byrnes presented it as such).

When the first bomb was dropped, the Japanese cabinet was told it was an atomic bomb and the Americans may have a 100 or more of them. The cabinet expected more attacks. It hardly even took notice of the second attack. What it did take notice of was the Soviet invasion the same day and that was what pushed Japan to surrender.

(more)

Pay Attention to Akagi
when he writes "it is the winners who decide who and who is not a war criminal."

Robert McNamara, who was involved in a number of very bad decisions in Viet Nam, and admitted it, was also involved in the planning of the massive bombing raids on Germany, including Dresden. I am paraphrasing, but he basically told Curtis LeMay that if America didn't win the war, they would both be guilty of war crimes.

The winners in war get to try the losers and get to write the history. That's the way it works. But the nature of the acts does not change.




They were given the opportunity
to leave Hiroshima and Nagasaki - leaflets were dropped telling people to leave because we were about to flatten the cities. I hope some took the warning to heart and did leave, I wish more had done so. The thing is - we warned them, we telegraphed our moves to save lives. We are as kind as it's possible to be in a horrible situation, but I don't recall any president going around apologizing until now.
Not to worry though - I have a Japanese friend who works for a car company that manufactures in the Nagasaki area who told me once that they always make sure to throw a handful of dirt to any car that's headed to America - their way of 'giving back'.
He was joking...I think...

BETWyan
The atomic bombs saved few Americans. If they were dropped on October 15 and October 17th and Japan surrendered on October 24th, you'd have a point, but they weren't and you don't. This isn't to say the carnage to Japan wouldn't have been as bad without them--the American bombing campaign that would have gone on through August, September and October as well as the continued American blockade would have cost thousands and thousands of Japanese lives. However, once the Soviets entered the war, the Japanese wouldn't have lasted much longer. And as I said, if the Americans had made it clear at Potsdam they had no intention of touching the Showa Emperor or the imperial system under a constitutional monarchy situation all this perhaps would have been moot to begin with.

Thom:

Dresden was of little military value and was basically an open city (and bombing an open city was and is against the rules of war).

"We were or are at war. The "innocent civilians" did / do / were supporting their war effort.

Our job in any war is to; Get in. Finish it. With the least amount of casualties on "our side".

I'm sure I could make a similar arguement justifying what happened at Nanjing in December of 1937.

" The Japanese were MORE HORRID than the Germans in the killing of "innocents".

Depends which Japanese. The Kempeitai though were a pretty nasty lot.

"Nuking" of Japan SAVED more of THEM than a continued war would have cost. SAVED more of US. SAVED more "Innocents" of various nations."

Assumes a great many things.



Ohimesama
The warnings were general warnings and the specific warning for Nagasaki wasn't dropped until days AFTER it was destroyed. There was no specific warning for any of the cities destroyed. Be as if Al Qaeda released a radio broadcast on September 3, 2001 reading that a number of US symbolic targets (WTC, Sear's Tower, US Capitol, etc.) would be destroyed in the near future and it advised Americans to avoid such in order to save their lives. Not very useful is it?

I don't think any US president has apologized. And why should he? Now if anyone wants to raise Truman from the grave and ask him, fine. Same for all the people screaming for Japan to apologize for this or that--who is going to apologize and to whom?

Real History - Important!
VaSteve, pardon me, but have you "snuck" around and read some real history? I'm not an expert on the "War for Southern Independence" but I'm doing a lot of study from REAL historians and you might like my bumper sticker: "MY ANCESTORS FOUGHT THE FIRST TERRORISTS" (Of which not only William T.Sherman is noted, but also Philip Sheridan.) Your are right, the victors may have written the history books or maybe mis-written them.

Akagi
If someone warned me that the place I lived in would be a likely target - yeah, I'd leave. Kind of like a known arsonist saying they might set me on fire, then heading my direction with gasoline and a match. True - he might not do it, but given the history - I think I'd run...

You must have missed King Barack's Apology Tour - it was showing all thru Europe, with instant replays for days and days...

"Innocent Germans and Japanese"
Hitler's willing executioners weren't innocent.
And if Japan was perpared to surrender why was a second bomb necessary? The tragedy is that war was necessary not that we fought to win by any means necessary. It's why we're still in Iraq. Defeat the enemy. Make nice afterword.

Ohimesama
I don't recall him or others offering an apology for the atomic bombings. What he said in Europe I didn't see as an apology and many of what he said was true.

Darrell...don't forget Col. James Montgomery who was involved on the "raid" on Darien, Georgia.

Responding to Akaqi #1
INNOCENTS: In my opinion if you help "The War Effort", if you build or make ONE bullet to be used in "The War Effort" if you transport ONE bullet to be used in "The War Effort" if you feed or house or give succor to ONE person who works in "The War Effort" you are no longer an INNOCENT. YOU are a Back Door Combatant.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Dennis
Another American myth is the second bomb was used because Japan refused to surrender. The US had always planned to use two bombs--the first to show it had an atomic bomb and the second to show it could produce them in massive amounts. A point the Japanese had concluded days before anyway when the cabinet was told by their own nuclear experts that the US may have more than a 100 of the devices. the cabinet expected more attacks and thus Nagasaki was no suprise and the cabinet took little note of. The Soviet invasion the same day was a different matter.

Japan was willing to surrender, just not willing to accept unconditional surrender. The plan was to bloody the Americans on Kyushu and then have the Soviets come in to meditate the best offer they could get. The bare minimum was the emperor and if the US had made this clear at Potsdam all of this may have been unnecessary.

Note that Japan didn't surrender for another week after Nagasaki, if the bombs were so decisive as you all believe why not surrender on the 7th or the 10th? You'll also note the final order ending the war was the order to the Kwantung Army to cease all operations and it only mentions the Soviets, not the bombs at all.

If Japan wasn't willing to surrender under any conditions, why the ongoing mission to the Soviet Union to appeal for their assistance in this matter? If I am going to fight to the last man to uphold the honor of not surrendering, I'm not going to Moscow to ask for assistance in ending the war now am I?


Responding to Akaqi #2
Perhaps you are right ... although all the information I have on the subject does not agree with your statements in reference to Potsdam

THE POTSDAM ULTIMATUM:
On July 26, Truman and other allied leaders issued The Potsdam Declaration outlining terms of surrender for Japan. It was presented as an ultimatum and stated that without a surrender, the Allies would attack Japan, resulting in "the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland" but the atomic bomb was not mentioned. On July 28, Japanese papers reported that the declaration had been rejected by the Japanese government. That afternoon, Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki declared at a press conference that the Potsdam Declaration was no more than a rehash (yakinaoshi) of the Cairo Declaration and that the government intended to ignore it (mokusatsu; "kill by silence"). The statement was taken by both Japanese and foreign papers as a clear rejection of the declaration. Emperor Hirohito, who was waiting for a Soviet reply to noncommittal Japanese peace feelers made no move to change the government position.On July 31, he made clear to his advisor Koichi Kido that the Imperial Regalia of Japan had to be defended at all costs.

Considering the fact that Japan professed to be keeping peace negotiations open through diplomatic avenues even while bombing Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, USA ... yes, they didn't get the "warning" or "Declaration of War" into the US Government's hands until AFTER the bombing started due to their own translation problems ... why should we have trusted them anyway even if they did say they were going to surrender?

Why should we have made mention of leaving the Showa Emperor or the Imperial Monarchy alone? That was not something that was decided upon until AFTER the Japanese surrendered ... and that decision was made mostly by D. MacArthur.

Responding to Akaqi #3
"MacArthur oversaw the Occupation of Japan from 1945 to 1951. Although criticized for protecting Emperor Hirohito and the imperial family from prosecution for war crimes, MacArthur is credited with implementing far-reaching democratic reforms in that country.

August 6 and 9, 1945, respectively. After six months of intense fire-bombingof 67 other Japanese cities, followed by an ultimatum which was ignored by the Showa regime, the nuclear weapon "Little Boy" was dropped on the city of Hiroshima on Monday, August 6, 1945, followed on August 9 by the detonation of the "Fat Man" nuclear bomb over Nagasaki.


First off:
Nagasaki: The city of had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordinance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

Hiroshima: At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of some industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops.


Dresden was of no military value. According to who?
"... the justified bombing of a military and industrial target, which was a major rail transportation and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort ... "

So ... who was innocent? As I said; "The innocent civilians did / do /were supporting their war effort"

ALSO; "I am sure I could make a similar argument justifying what happened at Nanking" ... EXCEPT ... WHO were the Aggressors?

Thom
Then in this regard the victims of 9/11 weren't innocent either and poor Professor Churchill was 100% correct in his op-ed piece when he called them "little Eichmanns." Al Qaeda declared war on the US in 1996 since those working in the WTC were helping the US economy, etc, they were in fact as you put it "back door combatants." The Pentagon of course was a legitimate target in any event and if Flight 93's intended target was the Capitol, that would be a legitimate target as well.

Dresden was of little military value and famed for its Baroque architecture and was targeted in part to destroy this cultural gem in order to demoralize the German people same reason many wanted to do the same to Kyoto. Such attacks are war crimes as well as an act of barbarism...no different from Hitler's orders to destroy Paris in 1944.

The Final WORD
Nobody has mentioned the fact that the Author of Everything told Israel to "kill EVERY LIVING THING" in some of the nations it "conquered."

That was because The Author of Love knows that when you do not destroy evil it will come back to destroy you. Proven over and over not only in The Bible but in History. True Love says destroy EVIL completely to protect Good.

But the "One Bad A** Mistake America" Presidency is so totally ignorant they don't know History. Evident from their witless march to socialism and the truly Evil New Age & One World Agenda.

To Hell with pussyfooting around. If you are real and are a real American you say we have not done enough to win this war against radical islam. For that mistake millions of Americans will suffer.

Recovering Liberal

Note to Japan and the Terrorists
If you wish to avoid having your head handed to you, DON'T ATTACK US.

Who Writes "The Real History"
Your are right, the victors may have written the history books or maybe mis-written them.

Darrell, First, look at the word. It isn't really a word ... its a contraction ... "His Story" ... People using the word "history" and calling themselves "historians" and pretending to "Know the Truth" is like Atheists who say "good-bye" (God Be With Ye)

Everyone has a view. Every view has its merits. History is written by either ... the winner or ... the only folks left with the technology to ... write (see the Bible).

Most of the things that were written in the Old Testament were written LONG before the jewish people ever existed by the Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians & Hittites ... in cuneiform ... but they DID gather up all the old tales and write them anew casting themselves as the ... "good" guys ... or the only people of importance.

History is only the story that has outlasted all the others by whatever means that occurred

Thom
Hiroshima and Nagasaki went almost untouched during the war. Reason they were picked so as to make a clear before and after demostration. Nagasaki was so unimportant it wasn't even the primary target but Kokura. I bet Taipei was bombed more often than Nagasaki was during the war. If these were so important, why were they left basically untouched throughout 1944 and 1945...it wasn't as if the Americans couldn't have hit them.

"Why should we have made mention of leaving the Showa Emperor or the Imperial Monarchy alone?"

Because surrender would have been much more acceptable to the Japanese and you (see you like using "we" so much) were going to do that anyway.

The US had the majority of the 14-part message the night before the attack. As for not acting in good faith, the Hull Letter pretty much gave Japan little choice but war.

Japan NEVER REJECTED Potsdam...another American myth. A Japanese newspaper claimed it was rejected, but the Japanese government NEVER rejected it. I regard Potsdam as basically blackmail and a gross violation of international law. The US and the United Kingdom had no right to demand "return" of Taiwan to the ROC which was what the Cairo Declaration did and it was included in Potsdam.

As for Nanjing? Who were the aggressors? Depends on your point of view doesn't it, the war began after the Luguo Qiao incident on July 7, 1937 and it was the Chinese forces that fired first.


Robert
Well who attacked whom first? I doubt the US would take too kindly if some country cut off all its oil supply and began to aid a country it was in war with--what was it again...you are either with us or against us? Using 20/20, many see Japan's attack as a rash, foolish act, but looking at the host of bad options they had in November of 1941, it was the least awful choice of a host of very bad choices. Looking back, going into China was a bad move, but that's easy to say after the fact. Sumter seemed like a good idea at the time too.

Thom:

History comes from the Greek meaning one who sees. It's origin is not "his story." His is actually from Old English, but story is related to the term history related to the Latin term for history.

Harold:

What do you suggest doing to win the war against radical Islam?

Who Were The Aggressors?
Akaqi: We weren't at war with Al Quaeda though we should have been. In fact, I still believe that we should hunt every single one of them down and terminate them wherever they are found. I still believe that we should hunt down every person who does harm to the US of A and exterminate them.

I won't say that Al Quaeda had no "right" to declare war on the US of A but we should have started fixing their problem they day they uttered those words.

That we, as a people, try to be Just and Compassionate in a world that does not respect either "virtue" is our own foible.

We allowed our CIA and other instruments of "subtle force" to degenerate beyond any level that is conscionable. We even insisted that our government take the structure apart. At least the people who live in the world of "rose tinted glasses" did.

We as a Nation are ultimately responsible for the tragedy that was 911. It IS OUR OWN FAULT.

We have had many warnings but we chose to refuse to believe that the world IS NOT A NICE PLACE ... just because it happens to be pretty nice where you / we live.

Akagi
The attack on Pearl Harbor was one of a series of very bad decisions by Japan. So perhaps we should apologize for 'forcing' Japan into declaring war.

We Will Have To Agree
To Disagree

Akaqi, I am at least as well read as you are. Or ... vice versa ... I would love to see where you are getting your information from since I tend to read anything I can to get a "rounded" opinion ... I will read stuff that is completely contrary and then try to logic out what seems to be a realistic view. It seems to me that a lot of what you are saying is a very Japanese view of things ... I have read some Japanese sources though not as many as they are not as readily available.

My contention stands however, I don't think that the Japanese people got anything that they didn't deserve.

EXCEPT ... ONE TRUE WAR CRIME; Our treatment of our Japanese-American citizenry was absolutely atrocious (I personally despise hyphenated Americans but in this instance it clarifies the issue)

Thom
"MacArthur is credited with implementing far-reaching democratic reforms in that country."

Note that Japan was no stranger to democracy as in the interwar years Japan was democratic--the Taisho Democracy. The red scare in the late 1920s gave rise to ultra-Japanese nationalism in the 1930s and that lead to Manchukuo and Luguo Qiao and all that followed.

The Americans did re-establish democracy and imposed the current constitution on it--something parties like the Ishin Seito Shimpu (which has zero seats in the Diet)would like to see changed.

MacArthur is seen in a very good light in Japan. He was also right about going into the Philippines. Nimitz wanted to bypass them and go into Taiwan instead--Taiwan was very pro-Japan (many there still are), very rugged terrian and the like...would have been a bloody adventure for all involved.

His Story
It may be true that the term "history" came from ancient greece. It may be that it WAS "one who see's".

In this ... I WAS being somewhat sarcastic BUT that really does not change a thing.

These days history is literally "His Story" because no-one sees "it" completely ... whoever gets their story out firstest and mostest is the one that "makes history"

Thom
Many weren't American citizens because the US law which was racist to its core made it impossible for the Issei to be naturalized...this wouldn't change until 1952 with the McCarran-Walter Act. In fact, until 1943 with the Chinese, no Asians were allowed to be naturalized. The Issei were asked to renounce their Japanese citizenship (as were any Nisei or Sansei, etc that were dual nationals)but many were very reluctant to do so since being unable to become US citizens and forced to give up their citizenship in the only country they had citizenship in they feared becoming stateless. Those that refused were sent to the infamous Tule Lake camp and after the war some were deported back to Japan.

That wasn't the only war crime either. Illegal killings of POWs, rape of Okinawan women, unrestricted submarine war fare--if it was a war crime for the Kriegsmarine to do it, it was a war crime for the USN as well--and so on. But in the war crime tally, the Americans ran a much cleaner war that did Japan. The US didn't have a "Death Railway" or a Kempeitai, etc.


how to deal with complications
Obviously history can be complicated. But noting the death toll in certain events does not establish that certain decisions were defensible, or even not war crimes. After all the war crimes that Hussein was rightly accused of had lower death tolls than Hiroshima. Is Harsanyi saying we should have acknowledged that Hussein faced difficult choices and opposed anyone who would criminalize polciy differences? The very idea is absurd, and it seems safe to say that Harsanyi would argue no such thing.

But then he is not really making an argument here. He is just trying to blow smoke to protect people on his side of the political spectrum who acted indefensibly.

But if Harsanyi is really calling for unclassifying as much information as possible so that an informed judgement can be reached, then I am with him. What he seems to be doing is waving his hand and saying that since we have had to do bad things in the past, we shouldn't consider whether behavior by government officials over the last 8 years was criminal. Talk about a simpleminded view.

Thom
"...whoever gets their story out firstest and mostest is the one that "makes history"..."

Ahh a fan of NBF I see even if there is dispute if he really said this. Forrest was great. I tend to like Pat Cleburne as my favorite commander though.

Who wins usually gets to decides what is written, but luckily with archaeology, new data from things found in archives and the like we get to revise history from what everyone thinks is the "true" story. Unlike some, I have no problems with revisionist history. History isn't static. The history of the Qin Dynasty didn't stop with the publishing of the Shiji by Si-Ma Qian.

Modern warfare gets civilians killed
Since industry, rocketry, and airplane became major parts of warfare the risk to civilians has greatly increased. That's a fact of life people need to come to terms with. Factories, fuel depots, conscription centers, communication centers, and barracks are all high value targets in any scenario where you can give a conscript some hardware and threaten the other side with it. That means they draw rocket attacks and bombing runs.

Take a look at the current evolution of warfare - creating unmanned fighting vehicles and the like. At some point just shooting enemy soldiers in the front lines isn't going to accomplish anything. Only destroying the enemy's ability to manufacture and direct weapons is going to have an impact.

As long as vital military infrastructure is maintained by civilians or placed within civilian population centers those civilians will be at serious risk from air strikes and artillery. Those attempting to dissuade attacks on their military capacity with civilian lives are employing "human shield" tactics. Meanwhile those who try to harvest propaganda gains by putting their own civilians in harm's way should not be rewarded.

Thom
The US may not have been at war with Al Qaeda, but it was in war with the US.

Robert:

The US did indeed "force" Japan into the attack. The US had imposed a total oil embargo that spring and by no later than 1943 Japan would have been totally out of oil. It also froze all Japanese assets in the US and began to actively aid the ROC which Japan had been in a de jure war since 1937 and a de facto war since 1931. The Hull letter was seen as an unacceptable ultimatum with the only course of action left was war.

Going into China was the first mistake which lead to all the others, but easy to say that now in 2009...things looked different to Japan in 1931 or 1936 or 1937. Japan's fatal error was thinking this was 1644 and she could just walk in and become the masters of China like the Manchus did. She misunderstood China's own rise in nationalism owing to the various abuses by the west and others...the Treaty of Nanking, the Taiping Rebellion, the Second Opium War, the Sino-Japanese War, the Boxers, the betrayal by the west at Versailles, then the the Xinhai Revolution...China was in no mood to be ruled by foreingers and soon Japan was bogged down in an unwinnable war. Too bad Sun Yat-sen had not died in 1925...otherwise, I doubt any of this would have happened.

SteveB
The death toll at Nanjing is debatable. Numbers go from as low as 40,000 to more than 300,000. Most are in the mid-200s. The two-atomic bombs could in fact be close to the numbers killed at Nanjing.

I might add that on Wiki, I think the Japanese is incorrect. Most in Japan don't call it the Nanking Massascre (which is what Wiki claims Japan calls i) but the Nanking Incident. If you look under the heading Japanese name, the Kanji would translate as the Nanjing Great Massacre which is the same as the Chinese name.

Since the Tokyo firebombs were just as destructive and the Japanese cabinet was told the Americans had maybe hundred of these devices and that it had been trying to get the Soviet help for months, I think your assertion doesn't ring true. If the bombs were so decisive, why didn't they surrender on August 7? They knew it was an atomic bomb at that point and they knew more were going to be dropped. The reason? They weren't the decisive factor--Marshall it turns out was correct.

Pistol
"Their philosophy of life works on a college campus so they assume it works in the Kalahari..."

Since the Kalahari is home to the Kung, many of the philosophy you'd find on college campus you'd find among the Kung. For example, Kung children are given no responsibilites but to play and their society is egalitarian, they are communal in such things as ownership of property, etc. Didn't you ever see the Gods Must be Crazy?

They have a neat language too...has clicks in it.

Liberal definition of "force"
Akagi wrote, "The US did indeed "force" Japan into the attack. The US had imposed a total oil embargo that spring and by no later than 1943 Japan would have been totally out of oil."

Simply refusing to export to a country is not an act of war that "forces" an attack. If Tojo's regime had no been at war with the Chinese, French, British, Dutch, and Soviets all at once a U.S. embargo would not have cut off all Japan's remaining access to oil.

From a purely Tactical perspective, though, Tojo's regime was forced to choose between 3 options: running out of oil, attacking the U.S., and peace. When people say, "The U.S. forced Japan to attack," it inaccurately implies that there were no alternatives.

Akagi:
So in your twisted logic the US started WWII in the Pacific by trying to forestall further Japanese aggression in China.

Akagi
Your knowledge of the history of the period is indeed impressive. However, you must then also know that we need to go by what the United States actually knew at the time the atomic bombing was authorized. They knew that Japan was in possession of a huge, undefeated army in China. They knew that a last-ditch defense that made Okinawa and Iwo Jima look like a cakewalk was planned. They knew that war weariness would make the catastrophically costly invasion difficult to sustain. They did not know that the Soviets would actually invade on schedule or delay. They did not know that the Soviets would be triumphant over the Japanese army so quickly.
They did not know that the Japanese were not candid when they refused unconditional surrender-- well, the list is very long.
The US did not 'know' that the atomic bomb would end the war. They hoped it would. The same would be true of every action in war.
As for your contention that the Japanese were forced into war by the US embargo and its support of China is not supportable because of the earlier actions of Japan that led to the US decision; the colonization of Manchuria, the Polo Bridge incident, and the war that followed with its genocidal atrocities. Japan was responsible for the war, not the United States.

Jon Stewart is an entertainer....
Shall we start taking his words as gospel? He's a shill for whatever writer has the best comedy sketch for the day. When he does come up with an original opinion are you surprised about what comes out of his mouth?? His routine is very much like his probable erstwhile hero, The Kenya Kid, when it comes to hasty decisions: Gitmo a case in point. Decide NOW, apologize LATER-- if at all.. At least he apologized TO the audience (whoever watches him) for his mistake. Obama apologizes to everyone else FOR us. What a singular misfit for the presidency!!

Watching clowns is best left for the circus. I do enjoy seeing them in their natural setting!!

Mlund
Actually the US oil embargo began before Tojo became PM, it began under Prince Fumimaro Konoe. And outside of the small border conflict in 1939, Japan and the Soviets were at peace, even signing a non-aggression pact in 1941 which the Soviets violated in 1945.

Japan wasn't at war with the Dutch until it ran over the NEI in 1942. Japan did move into northern Indochina in 1941 (the reason the US cut off Japanese oil exports), but France didn't have much of a government left by that time. Japan wasn't at war with the UK either being careful not to impact the Shanghai International Compound during the war in China and not touching Hong Kong or Singapore until war broke out on 12-7-1941.

Who Japan was in war with was China. As for simply not trading with Japan...much more than that. It also froze Japanese assets in the US and sided with the ROC in the war with Japan. How long would the US wait if all its oil was cut off? Wasn't Nixon planning on seizing the Saudi oil fields back in 1973?

The peace option was a cease-fire in China and any government that tried that would have been overthrown by the army...that simply wasn't a viable option. And since the US also demanded Japan to withdraw from the Tripartite Pact with Italy and Germany and who knows what other demands the US may have decided it wanted to enforce. The demand for all Japanese forces to withdraw from China (save Manchukuo) was no more acceptable to Japan than if Saudi Arabia demanded all US troops out of Iraq.

Me a liberal? Not in how the term is usually applied meaning a New Liberal. Am I a liberal in the classical sense of the word, yes.

Robert
"They knew that Japan was in possession of a huge, undefeated army in China."

The Kwantung Army was much smaller than it was in 1941 and there was no way for it to get it to Japan to defend anything. It was stuck there as was its army in Taiwan.

"They did not know that the Soviets would actually invade on schedule or delay."

They actually did know the Soviets were going to invasde which was why they were is such a hurry to get the bombs used BEFORE the Soviets could get involved. Truman believed (as he was told this by Byrnes)the atomic bombs could (would?) end the war before the Soviets could enter the war. The US knew it would be in the war by no later than August 20.

Japan never rejected Potsdam which is the claim. And the US did nothing to Japan in regards to its action in China. The US didn;t even demand Japan withdraw from Manchukuo in the Hull note--the US recognized Japan's legitimate interests in Manchukuo. It didn't do anything over Luguo Qiao, it didn't do anything over Nanjing and it's response to the bombing of Shanghai was purely symbolic (banning the export to Japan of 87 octane+ AV fuel). It wasn't until Japan invaded Indochina...a western colony that the US got serious. If Japan had simply confined its activities to China, the US wouldn't have done anything.

I'd say Japan was mostly responsible for the war, but hawks in the US like Hull were responsible as well.

SF:

"So in your twisted logic the US started WWII in the Pacific by trying to forestall further Japanese aggression in China."

Too bad for you that is 100% false as I pointed out the US didn't do anything to stop Japan's acts in China, it wasn't until it crossed into Indochina...a western colony the US got serious about stopping Japan.


SFA
You might also note that not much was going in China by 1941. The Chinese forces the NRA and the PLA and the warlords were way off in the boonies. The PLA basically sitting out the war waiting to fight the real enemy--the NRA (and no I don't mean the National Rifle Association) and the NRA). There were a few major battles during this time like the Battle of Changsha in the fall of 1941, but Japan's major aim now was Indochina and further south to the Straits Colonies and the NEI. Look at Yamashita, after he took Singapore and made the mistake of calling them citizens of Japan, they sent him off to the Kwangtung Army where nothing was going on. And the US "stood idlly by" (to use a favorite Chinese term) as Japan raped China. The conflict between the US and Japan had little to do with China, but the European colonies of SE Asia.


Akagi:
Do us all a favor, and move to Japan. You'll be happier there.

SFA
A large assumption on your part. How do you know where I'd be happy. But at least you are in the neighborhood.

akagi will make excuses for Japan
And China in every topic those nations relation with the USA is in question.

You will not see akagi talk about the military policies of Japan of the 1930's that caused the oil embargo by the USA.

This is a list of Japanese spies including leaders and commanders of the Japanese Secret Intelligence Services (Kempeitai) in the period 1930 to 1945.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_secret_agents _(1930s_to_World_War_Two)

Japan of the 30's was as militaristic as Nazi Germany.

JAPAN'S MILITARY AGGRESSION IN EAST ASIA 1931-1937

THE RISE OF THE MILITARISTS IN JAPAN

While Japan was giving the appearance of being a good neighbour in the western Pacific during the 1920s by involvement in treaties designed to preserve peace, extremist elements in Japan's government, military and civilian population had privately never renounced the use of force to expand Japan's territory. Towards the end of the 1920s a combination of economic, social, and political factors played into the hands of the militarists.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/battleforAustralia/historicalb ackground/JapMilaggro.html

Akagi:
You show more love for East Asia than the US. BTW, the US had started economic sanctions against Japan in 1940 as a reaction to Japanese actions in China.

SFA
Might that stand for Steven F. Austin...you go to that college or something? Or just like the founding father of Texas.

Military vs. Civilian Gov't
Akagi, "Actually the US oil embargo began before Tojo became PM"

Except that the military regime Tojo was part of already had control of Japan before Tojo became PM in October of 1941. As you yourself noted: "any government that tried that would have been overthrown by the army." The Oil Embargo went into place in the Summer of 1941, right before Tojo took over the civilian government as PM.

"At war with," may not be technically correct. I was being too liberal with the term. However Imperial Japan was in a direct alliance with the Hitler at the time, who was at war with the Soviet Union and Great Britain and occupied France, the Netherlands, and Belgium. There ~were~ non-U.S. supplies of oil in the world at the time, but the Axis war efforts Japan supported against the Soviets, British, French, and Dutch had lead directly to Japan losing access to those supplies.

"The peace option was a cease-fire in China and any government that tried that would have been overthrown by the army...that simply wasn't a viable option."

The option ~was~ viable. The ruling regime (the military regime) was simply ~unwilling~, and completely culpable for that decision.

"How long would the US wait if all its oil was cut off?"

In order to cut off ~all~ U.S. oil supplies someone would actually have to invade U.S. territory. Refusal to trade is not, of itself, a valid justification for military attack. Likewise it was certainly wrong for President Fillmore to threaten military force to compel Japan to open its borders to U.S. traders when he dispatched Commodore Perry.

Jon Stewart is the typical no-nothing
about anything except what his exec. assist. shows him 30 secs. before show time.

His theme for years has been anti-Bush, it is all he knows, he doesn't have any real thoughts on the matter, wouldn't know *complex* if it came up and bit him, and started out billing himself just as a comic and should stick to that category.

Akagi isn't impressive
just long winded and self important.

Should put him right up there with the various Robertos and Hals.

The Discreet Charm of the Japanese
"likewise it was certainly wrong for President Fillmore to threaten military force to compel Japan to open its borders to U.S. traders when he dispatched Commodore Perry." The Japanese executed American sailors who were shipwrecked in Japan, mostly whalers. We were getting tired of it.

Akagi-Remember the China Lobby?
There was continuous pressure on the US to do something about Japanese aggression in China because of the China Lobby, whose most prominent member was Henry Luce. His very influential publications were full of attacks on the Japanese for their actions in China. An alleged temporary lull in the war hardly eliminated American concern for China. Your history is heavily biased in favor of the Japanese-- but you knew that.

Ref: Akagi
In defense of pretty much everything that Akagi has put here, I can't say that the rebuttal is wrong. Everything that has been said I have knowledge of and is pretty much correct. US was subtly edging us toward some conflict by our actions.

I still disagree with the whole concept of "Innocents" in war.

The fact is, Japan attacked the USA with bombs and bullets. There is some dispute whether Franklin knew for a fact that a threat was immanent and could have averted the surprise or not. They opened the show and therefore deserved everything they got.

Political warfare often spills over to physical warfare. Surprise!

The view of our entry is seen with the Japanese in a good light.

We pushed. They kicked. We crushed.

SFA
Yes indeed as I pointed out in earlier posts and the sanctions were mostly symbolic as Japan could run its aircraft on fuel at those lower octane levels not covered by the sanctions. The sanctions didn't hurt Japan until those put in place in 1941 and those were in response to Indochina, not what Japan had done in China.

I am also unaware that East Asia was a country or that Japan encompasses all of East Asia.

TS:

When have I made any excuse for Japan? I simply pointed out correctly that the US didn't do anything toward Japan's activities in China outside of a meaningless ban on high octane fuel exports until it invaded a western colony. It didn't protest Japan's continued occupation of Manchukuo in the Hull note. It was not the activities of Japan in the 1930s that caused the emabrgo, but its actions in 1941.

"This is a list of Japanese spies including leaders and commanders of the Japanese Secret Intelligence Services (Kempeitai) in the period 1930 to 1945."

And the point to this is? Actually the Kempeitai were not just an intelligence service, but the Japanese Secret Police and in charge of internal security, the POW camps, and the comfort women brothels and many other nasty activities as well. A rather nasty lot...after the war when the Kempeitai was dissolved, many former members became part of the Yakuza.

"Japan of the 30's was as militaristic as Nazi Germany."

No debate and when have I said they were not?

"While Japan was giving the appearance of being a good neighbour in the western Pacific during the 1920s..."

From 1919 until 1928 Japan was a democracy...the Taisho Democracy (even if technically the Taisho-era ended in 1926).

Yes
"Akagi isn't impressive
just long winded and self important."

Said by people too stupid to understand what I write.


Judging History
It is always risky to judge history through the prism of today. We can always say what should have been done or what we would do. But as Mr. Harsanyi says history is rarely simple.

In a perfect world there would be no war and no need to make the complex and conflicting moral decisions involved. But we must deal with life as it is. Not as we would like it to be.

Some would say that war and violence are always wrong and that total pacifism is the answer. But under such a philosophy a great percentage of humanity would live as slaves under ruthless dictators. I'm sorry folks but a hard fact of life is that there are bad people in the world who want to enslave or kill you. And there is no Harry Potter wand to wave to make it otherwise. Diplomacy is fine but you must have a backup as a last resort when it doesn't work.

We who are Christians know that we live in an imperfect world but that one day Jesus Christ will return and make things right again. People who don't believe this put forth the view that we can make the world perfect through our own power if we can just get enough people to cooperate or have the "right" people in charge.

But history shows that this never works. Because you can never get an overwhelming majority of the world's population to agree and no matter who is in charge he/she/they will still be imperfect humans. So we imperfect humans just muddle through as best we can hopefully relying on God's wisdom to see us through. God day to all.

Akagi:
Did I say East asia was country? I said you show more love for that area than the US.

Thom
On the night of December 6 when the Kido Butai was sitting a few hundred miles off Hawai'i and waiting to launch the attack, FDR got the de-coded message (13 of the 14 parts). He turned to Harry Hopkins--one of his longest and key advisors and said to him "This means war."

But he--I am convinced--had no idea when or where. Due to various assumptions, I am sure he felt it would be the Philippines (only a few hundred miles from Japan's southern flank in Taiwan)or perhaps The Straits Colonies. They assumed Japan could never move the Kido Butai across the entire Pacific undetected and then pull off an attack like they did on 12-7.

Robert:

I know the China Lobby and Luce and his wife quite well. US aid didn't come until after it entered Indochina, before the US let China rot and even after it was quite willing to accept Japanese claims on Manchukuo.

The Black Ships had nothing to do with whalers, but trade and as far as that goes, American whalers wrecked on Taiwan were treated no better and the Qing government had little influence in helping them.

They were little different from what the British did in China in 1839-1842. Kobe and others became Treaty Ports just as Guangzhou and Shanghai, etc did in China and Japan was faced with the same type of unequal treaties. Japan recognized that the only response to this was massive modernization (they touch on this in a way in the Last Samuari in their Hollywood version of the Satsuma Rebellion)where the chant was Western Technology, Japanese ethos.

50 years later they would defeat a major western power while China was being carved up like a Christmas turkey.

War Is A Biatch. Period.

You either fight to win or get ready to surrender.

SFA
But before you told me to go to Japan which is a country.

Mlund:

"However Imperial Japan was in a direct alliance with the Hitler at the time, who was at war with the Soviet Union and Great Britain and occupied France, the Netherlands, and Belgium. There ~were~ non-U.S. supplies of oil in the world at the time, but the Axis war efforts Japan supported against the Soviets, British, French, and Dutch had lead directly to Japan losing access to those supplies."

In name only. Japan and the Soviets continued to trade and assist each other through the war and Japan made no hostile acts toward the UK until December 8 when it invaded Hong Kong. It did sent troops into Indochina, but by the time it did that France basically no longer existed. It didn't move on the NEI until 1942.

The entire oil-exporting world had cut off Japan over Indochina.

The US does have its own supplies, but if the entire world cut off the US how long before it would respond? As i said in 1973 Nixon was making plans for seizing the Saudi oilfields.

Civilian Casualties
Is it right to fight a war in which there will be civilian casualties? Yes. Take the Palesinians, for instance. The TV interviewed a mother whose son had just blown himself up to kill a couple of Jewish children. She was devestated that he had been killed. It was all the Jews' fault for not being dead. And she couldn't wait for her younger child to be old enough to kill himself too. Is she an 'innocent' civilian? No. Heck NO! She is probably more guilty than her son was.

It is the same in most wars. Were the civilans in Hiroshima 'innocent'? They were certainly making and supplying their military with weapons, etc. and supported them. During WWII our children would gather scrap metal for the war effort and so did the children in Hiroshima. Were they evil? No. Could they have been our friends? Yes. Was it wrong to kill them to convince the rest to give up and end the war killing millions? No.

In the first place they were no more innocent than their solders were. In the second place, if someone had to die to end the war it is best to cut losses by doing what is necessary to end it. In the third place, I'd much prefer to have THEIR civilians killed winning a war than OUR civilians killed by losing one.

Was this a right choice? H**L YES!

Thom
"There is some dispute whether Franklin knew for a fact that a threat was immanent and could have averted the surprise or not..."

Lucky for the Americans they were suprised, if Kimmel had detected the Kido Butai he would have sent his fleet to meet it and without aircover from the carriers it would have been destroyed and this time sank in deep water with much higher loss of life and those ships lost forever. I think the Arizona was the only mainline ship not savaged from the attack...if hundreds of miles north of Hawai'i, the ships would have sank in waters greater than a mile deep. On December 6, the Enterprise and Lexington were far out at sea. The Yorktown and Wasp were in the Atlantic, the Saratoga in San Deigo...Kimmel would be alone with his 8 battleships against Nagumo's 6 carriers.

Akagi:
I know you are supporting Japan, but ... I also do not know if FDR knew that there would be an attack on Pearl Harbor. BUT THE PENTAGON DID. They had decoded a message to the Japanese ambassodor about two weeks before the attack that gave them that data. A decision was made to keep it quiet, to allow the attack to force the U.S. into WWII, primarily against the Germans.

The night before the attack, there was a telegram sent to the admiral at Pearl Harbor: "Expect a surprise in the morning." However, unbeknown to the Pentagon, the admiral had also been told that there would be a number of planes arriving from the U.S., being flown in for security. They were to make a mock attack on Pearl Harbor as a training exercise. The admiral did not know when they were due and assumed that this was what the message meant. So he had all ammo locked up to prevent accidents.

Also no one expected the fleet to be in. It takes three days to warm up a boiler enough for a battleship to move. The boilers were still hot enough to get the ships underway when the attack came. As a result, there was the damage done to everything. The admiral was later courtmartialed for not defending the base since they had "warned" him. Everything I have seen has been careful to not allow the names of the guilty printed.

There is no comparison between the
decision to drop the specials and Bush and his jerks using torture for the first time in American history

none

Robert

Akagi:
You can also defend the Japanese all you wish. They were as guilty of the war as any other group. And they were as innocent. It still doesn't change the fact that they intended to conquere a good portion of the world and rule it.

45caliber your post is so full of
errors that there is no point in rebuking them one by one

But I will do two

The BB Nevada got up steam in her boilers in under 30 minutes not 3 days...

and there was no Pentagon on 7 December 1941

F minus for you

Robert

45
"BUT THE PENTAGON DID. They had decoded a message to the Japanese ambassodor about two weeks before the attack that gave them that data. A decision was made to keep it quiet, to allow the attack to force the U.S. into WWII, primarily against the Germans."

A few things. First, the Pentagon didn't exist. It wasn't built until 1943. The Department of War and Navy at the time were housed at a building on Constitution Avenue inside the city. As for anyone KNOWING 100% Japan was going to attack and where, please give us a source for that.

"The night before the attack, there was a telegram sent to the admiral at Pearl Harbor..."

His name was Husband Kimmel and again, source please. There were planes arriving that morning...B17s, but there were not involved in any mock attack, but those were what the radar operators were told the blips they saw were coming in.

And Kimmel was not court martialed, but relieved of his command. He retired the next year.

Ranger29
Sorry about the error on the Pentagon. You are right. It was called the War Department then. And you are right about the battleship's steam. The boiler was already hot - so it took only minutes to get the water going to get up steam. It was hot because the ship had been in port for too short a time to cool it off.

Dear Akagi
I am not going to take the time to cite or refute your revisionist points. I have a life that calls me away and you are in denial. I just want to say that you are full of it. I have heard you defend, over and over and without any relevance to the threads, in your inimitable, gnostic way, the Japanese for their attack on Pearl Harbor. You can wish and hope all you want but you can't make that cow turn white. I think that it is so important for you to believe your revisionism that you have talked yourself into it. Give it a rest. The Japanese screwed up. They got busted. Now go home.

Ranger29
Where on earth did you get the idea that Bush and friends were the first people in American history to use torture? (If you want to call putting a bug in a cell as torture or using a training aid for our soldiers as torture.)

I would suspect that you can find torture in every war ever fought, including by Americans. Read what happened at Andersonville and other Civil War prisons. That should get you started.

45 caliber...nope
The boilers in the Battleships of that era (ie the ones on BB row) could be lit off using standard procedures in about 3 hours...using an emergency (and somewhat more dangerous procedure...but perfectly doable) they could get steam up in about 30 minutes.

USS Nevada did just that...the other Battleships on BB row could not get underway for varying reasons...but another reason is that all would have required tugs in the position that they were moored at.

USS Nevada was moored "by herself".

The other claims you make about "standing by for a surprise" or something like that are equally wrong.

Kimmel made some errors at Pearl Harbor, but he did reasonably well with the information that he had.

Robert

45
Yes indeed. Japan indeed desired to conquer a vast area of East Asia and establish the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperty Sphere and as they saw it to kick all those evil Gaijins from Europe. Japan was successful in doing that though as within 10 years of the war's end most of the European colonies were no more and within 20 years only Hong Kong and Macao and East Timor was left in European hands.

45 caliber. I dont care what
happened at Andersonvile, that was not the function of The Union.

The US military or its government has never until Mr. Bush resorted to torture.

Robert

Ranger29
I'm sure you'd be relieved that waterboarding according to the protocols used at Gitmo isn't torture, so our record is clean. You can relax.
I'm still not sure about the caterpillar. Any thoughts on that?

EVERYONE on this thread knows IQ29

certifiably ca-ray-zee… right?




tedmug
Japan had three choices--1) agree to the American demands in which the army would have stepped in and overthrown any government who tried that. 2) Do nothing and let the oil run out in 1943 (or sooner) which at that point Japan would be totally at the mercy of the United States 3) Get the oil itself and the most likely candidate was the NEI. There was the Soviet Union but 1939 pretty much made the army unwilling to tangle with the Red Army again for awhile. Japan assumed--rightfully--that any move on the NEI would cause the US to declare war on Japan...so if you are Japan you want to go to war with the US with its assets intact or her assets in flames or sitting at the bottom of Pearl Harbor? If you are rational, you'd opt for choice #2. Now explain how this is revisionist and again not that there is anything wrong with revising history or don't you know this?


Robert
According to the CAT which the US ratified it sure is.

Robert:

How about Camp Douglas then, since that was a Union prison and worse than Andersonville.

Robert in AZ
at Gitmo more then met the definition of torture...

that is according to our own military.

Just because the President says something is so...doesnt mean it is.

"smoking gun smoking mushroom"

Robert

Akagi
In real life, we don't get good choices, but we don't complain when we are forced to live with the consequences. Japan had taken a series of wrong turns, the most serious of which was setting up a system that gave the Imperial Army veto power over the government. The idea that WW2 was fated and that somehow Japan was not the primary aggressor may be comforting to the Japanese, but it is not comforting to their ten million victims and their descendents.

Akagi...not so much
any choice should have included a halt to Japan's aggressive actions in China

that was the source of the oil embargo

Robert

Rolls the eyes
renny wrote:

"Akagi isn't impressive
just long winded and self important."


Akagi responds: - 3:35 PM EST
Yes
Said by people too stupid to understand what I write.
======================
Said by people who cannot miss your biased opinions.

We need to stop allowing people like you to come live here

Ranger
The source of the embargo was Japan's incursion into Indochina, now if Japan hadn't been in China it wouldn't have been in Indochina and if it wasn't in Manchukuo it wouldn't have been in China, and if it hadn't gone into Korea, it wouldn't have been in Manchukuo. If Perry and the Black Ships hadn't come, it wouldn't have been in Korea, so the source of the embargo was Perry and the US...see how silly things get if you go far enough back. tell me, will your post still be here tomorrow at 9 a.m.? Have they unbanished you yet?


TS
"We need to stop allowing people like you to come live here..."

People like who? And how can you stop people like me.

talent scout
Actually, Akagi is smart and well informed. However, he needs to ignore too much information he knows full well in order to be an apologist for Japanese militarism. He claims Japan had no real choice but to declare war, and that somehow this mitigated their guilt. The only way the US could have avoided war with Japan was to continue to supply oil and scrap metal to a nation the US then recognized as an expansionist aggressive empire. We had a choice, too. We chose to not sell to the aggressor.

I hate to get involved
but a comment by ranger29 has set me off. You said we have never used torture before Pres. Bush. I believe you should read about the civil war, the revolutionary war, war of 1812, or the Spanish American war. It was very commen to shoot captives in stratigic places, That is why the Geneva acords were Brought in to being. The world as a whole used it to get information. To believe in the gentlemen solder is a fairy tale. The wars were brutal and savage.
TO Akagi, Hello again. I have to agree with the posts here. Japan had a choice, they chose wrong.
Kirk

Robert
"Japan had taken a series of wrong turns, the most serious of which was setting up a system that gave the Imperial Army veto power over the government."

The key being thinking this was 1644 and they could just walk into China unopposed and the Chinese would look to them as saviors. The Imperial Army didn't have veto power per se, but it did have the ability to overthrow any government it didn't like (just as the US military does--think Harry Reid and Obama could stop the US Army if it decided it was time for them to go?) and the army was so radicalized by 1941, any attempt to stop the China adventure would have been the end of any government. Some in the army even thought about killing Yamamoto for his opinions on what it was doing in China.

Kirk...there is a difference in actions
taken on the battlefied due to the extreme conditions on the battlefield...and decisions taken against prisoners.

We shot Spanish soldiers in the SAW who waterboarded the Cuba Libre folks.

to claim that Bush and his bunch of tough guys/gals was doing something in the long tradition of the US goes against well even what Alberto Gonzalez has said.

and he is one heck of a source

Robert

Akagi the point being that
Japan was acting in an aggressive manner...and the oil embargo was a remedy for that.

Robert

Later folks...off for some
"midnight" activities...

Long Live The Republic

Robert

Robert
As I said many times, Japan was mostly responsible for the war. But looking at the constraits they were under, they had little choice but to go to war. The US had choices too and they too were perhaps (some like Pat Buchanan would disagree I suppose)acting in what they saw in their best interest and when interests collide you often get war. Japan was unwilling to give on China and the US was unwilling to give on the NEI or oil exports and as neither side was willing to give on issues they saw as key, the only thing left is war.

An apologist, no, but I do understand the position they were in and how they got there.

Ranger
"Japan was acting in an aggressive manner...and the oil embargo was a remedy for that."

Yeah. That sure worked out.

Sorry Robert
akagi is not very smart at all.
He has some knowledge and consistently mis-applies it in any subject about America.

He has no concept of the principles of this country, therefore is always confused about the events.

I am not new in seeing akagi's ideas.

Never seen him right yet about our history and the principles that brought events forward.

ranger29
Ok, so its ok to take out your knife/saber and slowly cut someone up, or shoot there foot, or knee off. But hey its the heat of battle, I need to know troop strength. Wow never heard that before. But hey, you can't water board a terorrist. You can water board our solders;SEALS, Piolits ect., but not someone who is not even covered by the Geniva acords. I guess that said it all.
Kirk

Like this
Akagi quotes me: - 5:12 PM EST
TS
"We need to stop allowing people like you to come live here..."


and then replies:
People like who? And how can you stop people like me.
======================
Making you live up to this, if not, kick your butt out of here.

The Oath of Allegiance once required of all immigrants, and should still be the requirement.

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Japan was aggressive
Was Japans only problem.
Its desire to expand Japans influence across the east and the Pacific is why they needed to get their butts handed to them

Ranger
During the March to the Sea, Wheeler captured some of Sherman's bummers (raiders sent out to round up food and other supplies needed by the army as it had left it's supply line when it left Atlanta)and hanged them as bandits. Sherman got some of Wheeler's men and did the same to his men. Custer hanged some of Mosby's men and he then returned the favor. Sorry, your version of history doesn't wash.

TS
"The Oath of Allegiance once required of all immigrants..."

You assume I ever took such an oath as for "that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen..."

The SCOTUS in cases such as Afroyim v. Rusk and Schneider v. Rusk took a different view.

The Supreme Court
Has been proven wrong more than once akagi.
They have even corrected themselves.

Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967)

he court did not address the issue of what standard of proof would be required in citizenship cases -- i.e., whether intent to give up citizenship had to be proved clearly and convincingly (as in a criminal trial), or by a preponderance of evidence (as in a lawsuit). This question would not be resolved until Vance v. Terrazas

Vance v. Terrazas, 444 U.S. 252 (1980)

Terrazas explicitly renounced his US citizenship.

The State Department ruled Terrazas was no longer a US citizen on account of this act

The Terrazas decision established two major points. First, although intent to give up US citizenship could be ascertained either from an individual's specific statements or by inference from his actions and conduct, the "assent" principle of Afroyim v. Rusk required that intent to be proved separately from a potentially expatriating (citizenship-losing) action. Congress could not sidestep the issue of intent by declaring a certain action to be inherently incompatible with keeping US citizenship, and then decreeing that voluntary performance of such an action conclusively proved intent to give up citizenship

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/cases.html

TS
Can you remember what you write. You put forward that oath with the crap about "that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen..." and it is obvious in Rusk that the court doesn't share that view since it overturned the decision of stripping him of his US citizenship for voting in a foreign election. And Vance v. Terrazas isn't even germane in this case. The point is that Rusk doesn't require one to give up allegiance and fidelity to his "prior" country (as the US does accept the fact of dual nationals).

TS
You may note that since the 1990s, acquiring citizenship in a foreign state will not strip you of your US citizenship unless the act is for the purpose of giving up your US citizenship, even if the foreign state makes you say an oath saying you have renounced your US citizenship so the facts in Vance v. Terrazas are no longer really germane to the loss of citizenship due to naturalization in a foreign state as State has changed its policy in that regard.


Discussing any topic
About the Law with such as akagi is like walking through a bog

Public Law No: 99-653
H.R.4444
Title: A bill to amend the Immigration and Nationality Act, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Rodino, Peter W., Jr. [NJ-10] 3/18/1986) Cosponsors
11/14/1986 Became Public Law No: 99-653.

Limits the loss of nationality consequence as a result of taking an oath of allegiance to a foreign state, or of accepting service in a foreign government, to persons 18 years of age or older. Mandates loss of nationality for service in the armed forces of a foreign state only for: (1) service in commissioned or noncommissioned officer ranks; or (2) service in armed forces engaged in hostilities against the United States.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d099:HR04444:@@@D&s umm2=m&

This case
Vance v. Terrazas, 444 U.S. 252 (1980)

Laurence Terrazas was a dual US/Mexican citizen by birth (born in the US to a Mexican father). While a university student in Mexico, he signed a document reaffirming his Mexican citizenship. This document contained a section (required by Mexican law) by which Terrazas explicitly renounced his US citizenship

Is about
10/10/1978 Public Law 95-432

Akagi holds no power to dismiss its relevance.

He just thinks he can

At war as at war
When Hitler and Stalin, in a complete surprise for the world and specially for the forces of the International Communism, fresh from fighting in the Spanish Civil war, declared the signing of the non-aggression Pact in 1939, the gates for the WW 2 had widely opened.

Just overnight two adversaries have become friends. Soviet propaganda machine was instructed to make Nazi Germany the best friend of the Soviet Union and the Western Democracies the enemies of both.

The Pact has allowed Stalin to begin a war against Finland, occupy Baltic states, etc. and for Hitler to invade Poland.

Many great reasons were given by the Soviet propaganda; Nazis were called "our German friends", etc.

Two years later, Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. After a short shock, the Soviet propaganda turned around 180 degrees and coined the slogan that every Soviet citizen would understand: "Kill a German".

"Kill a German" has become the main motif of books, movies, songs, posters, newspapers, school programs, theater shows, work shops meetings, army markings... It was very simple really: the sooner you kill the Germans, the sooner you can go home to your family, kiss your girlfriend, hug your mother.

I want to see today's liberal activists at Stalingrad where confirmed 650,000 men died on the shores of the Volga river. Or on the shores of Normandy. Hello, Jon Stewart! How would you qualify them, Sir?

Public Law
10/10/1978 Public Law 95-432.SUMMARY AS OF:
8/15/1978--Reported to House amended. (There is 1 other summary)

(Reported to House from the Committee on the Judiciary with amendment, H. Rept. 95-1493)

Amends the Immigration and Nationality Act to repeal specified provisions depriving persons of their United States nationality and citizenship in the following circumstances (1) a person, born outside the United States to parents one of whom was not a United States citizen, who failed to come to and reside in the United States; (2) a person who having dual nationality sought the benefits of his non-United States nationality; (3) a person who voted or participated in a foreign election; (4) a person who was convicted of desertion from the United States military; (5) a naturalized citizen who resided outside the United States for a specified period of time; and (6) a minor's parents' expatriation.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d095:HR13349:@@@D&s umm2=m&

Torture and the Laws Governing
HELLO!

Has anyone decided who it was that decided the rules governing use or not of torture?

If you are in reference to something along the lines of the Geneva Convention ...

PLEASE NOTE: Al Quaeda and others detained because of terrorist acts are NOT protectred under the rules of the Geneva Convention. They have NO rights whatsoever here in the USA. So what's the question?

Under the terms of military action by non military forces and due to the lack of the force ... such as it is ... being a non signer of any treaty regarding the treatment of prisoners, terrorists have NO rights.

They, by the "Rules" can be taken out back and shot down with impunity. Which is what we should do.

Torture? Why not?

This is one more example of the idea that WE SHOULD FOLLOW SOME MORAL RULE while our enemy can do whatever they want.

Personally, I think that in terms of our current terrorist problem, we should drown them in pig blood on international television.

... Lets seeya get to heaven now ...

Sometimes I get pretty gruesome ...

Desden
The carpet bombing of Dresden may have been fully justified. Some of the Manhatten Project scientists were escapees from Hitler's Germany. They brought nuclear science with them to the United States. This is a well-established fact! Historians and military analysts have long held that Germany was very close to getting the atomic bomb when we started carpet-bombing certain German cities -- like Dresden. Back in my advanced poli sci classes in college (I was a journalism major/poli sci minor) I remember reading some historian who suggested the Dresden's porceline factories hid Nazi atomic bomb research. I don't know if that's true, but if it was even suspected by Roosevelt, then the bombing was justified.

One person had it ...
correct. Tell us Obama, how would you feel if your girls were abducted?
His answer if there were one would tell you everyhing you need to know. He won't answer.

Please
Ranger-Do a little reading about the treatment of Confederate POW's."The US didn't torture".You need to get out more...to a library.How about being used as a human shield to protect a US fort?Then being forced marched hundreds of miles.With little food or water.No medicine.Many literally starved to death.This is just one of many actions taken by the US in the 1860's.This torture and brutality was also brought on against the civilian population.What do you think it is called when you are hung by your thumbs for days?"The US didn't torture".Stick to a subject you know something about.

aurorawatcher
Germany was years away from the bomb. One reason was the Allied bombing of critical parts of the Nazi atomic program such as the heavy water plants, but also due to some critical mistakes the German scientists made in the program itself such as the assumption how much fissionable material was needed to produce the bomb. Even if Dresden was key to the Nazi program (and there is no evidence it was) the Nazi program was not 3 months away from the bomb as I said it was years away, but it was much closer than the Japanese program was. Perhaps unmolested, the Nazis could have had the bomb by the same time the Soviets did, but that wasn't until 1949. It is doubtful the Nazis could have produced one any sooner.


TS
Since 1990, it has been the policy of State to not strip a American citizen of his or her US citizenship unless the citizen affirmatively states that he or she intends to relinquish US citizenship. When such a question arises, a US consular official will simply ask the person if it was his or her intent to give up his or her US citizenship and if the answer was no, then the official will certify that it was not the intent of the person to relinguish his or her citizenship. In 2005, there was an attempt by Congress to force State to go back to the pre-1990 policy, but that failed.

Today, a US citizen can go to another country and become a citizen of that country and even if that country requires that person to swear or affirm they have renounced their loyality, etc to any other country (as the US oath does), this will not in itself strip that citizen of his US citizenship UNLESS it was his intent to not only become a citizen of his new country but to give up his citizenship in the US.

Also not that each of those provisions you cite from the 1978 law have been repealed by Congress. Pub.L. 99-653 made it clear that loss of citizenship required an act performed voluntarily and with the intention of giving up US citizenship

VaSteve
Not to mention conditions at places like Camp Douglas or the ethnic cleasing of women and girls from New Manchester and Roswell, Georgia some of which were raped before being sent north of the Ohio River. I think a number of American Indians would dispute the claims of torture as well as Filipinos during the Filipino-American War in the first years of the last century as well as Vietnamese prisoners taken by the Americans during the Vietnam War.


History Ain't Pretty
This whole issue has been over-lawyered and hypocrisized (probably not a word). When we're in a war, it's usually because somebody is trying to kill us or people we side with, and we're trying to defeat them by doing the same to them.

General Sherman made the succinct and accurate point that war is cruelty and the best way to end it soon is to bring that fact home to the people making it possible, either through economic or political support.

I would have supported any kind of torture of the Gitmo detainees that would get accurate intel, because I don't believe that Khalid Sheikh Muhammed or any of his co-conspirators deserves any more time on earth. There are two questions: did our interrogators get the information they were after? And did they commit such unspeakably depraved acts that they were themselves turned into monsters?
I don't know, but I think the answers are Sometimes and No.

As for the atom bomb, given Truman's situation and the choices before him, he made the right choice. I've always been told that the moral blame for war is on those who made it necessary. The people who died in Dresden are on Hitler's tab. The people who have died in Iraq are on Saddam's and the various Al Qaeda and Iranian leaders who have supported and funded the insurgencies.
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